Hey Drex... I'm a psychologist and flow artist... I love that you're discussing Csikszentmihalyi's concepts of flow... for me, I can achieve flow with my props (in regard to that sort of trance/meditative type state), but I can't hold it very long. I usually get distracted when I catch myself do something new, then I have to stop and explore it - or I'll hit myself or throw a prop and get derailed... but also, (and I wonder if this may apply to you as well), I really find a "cognitive flow" in the problem solving and theoretical aspects of these arts - understanding the underlying geometry and patterns and integrating that information into practice... when I distract myself during a meditative flow by figuring out something new, my flow shifts from meditative to cognitive and logistical - stopping to try a move over and over, exploring variations, and integrating that information back together with my existing repertoire... Having watched your videos for quite some time and having a deeper connection myself to the more tech side of the house, I wonder if (instead of not experiencing flow at all) your flow comes more in the form of cognitive thought process and information integration... just hypothesizing. ;-) Love this new video series by the way... the community needs these!
I find interesting how similar is the flow concept to the Zen concept of mushin or "mind without mind" which is the ultimate goal of japanese martial arts (budo). As all Zen concepts It's almost impossible to define but basically it's the ideal state of mind where you are no longer restrained by thoughts and you focus only in the moment, that's when a warrior could truly achieve the peak performance in a fight. In budo, mushin is a mean to an end but also the end in itself. Many Zen masters in the past used to say that "the way is everywhere", in other words they believe that no matter if you are a monk, a martial artist, a flow artist, a psychologist, a painter, a writer, etc. every activity will eventually lead you to achieve a mushin state of mind. Well that's my two cents, excellent video.
I've kind of stumbled backwards into the Flow Arts community after having been a flow artist for thirty years. I started spinning flower sticks/devil sticks when I was 9 years old (early nineties) and I've practiced and played with them regularly ever since. When I was a teenager I started putting on music and "zoning out" for hours as I spun the sticks. I'd take them to school with me and spin them on the lawn at lunchtime. I now know I was doing "flow play." I hadn't spun the sticks much in a few years, and recently dusted them off and got deep back into it. I decided to look up new tricks to learn online and discovered that "flow arts" was a thing. Suddenly a lot of what I had gotten out of devil stick spinning made a lot of sense. I'd been using prop manipulation to facilitate a flow state for most of my life. I just saw it as a fun skill toy. Now I'm going to my local drum circle spin jam and making my own props.
Just signed up for monthly pledge on your patreon my friend :~} I'm a student so I'm not rolling in cash but theres no way I couldn't support you for teaching me ALL my poi skills so far on this journey. Thank you always
Thank you so much for using my definition of flow. I enter flow states everytime I pick up my buugeng. I allow myself to completely BE what I am doing and spinning and whatever my body feels it wants to do I allow it to do. Flow states are intoxicating and I love that it is because it's all natural and since I suffer with severe anxiety attacks and depression it to me is a form of meditation and completely calms me when I feel anxiety or depression surfacing. I loved this entire video and will share it with my following that's ever growing on my Facebook page @ Silent Awareness Flow Journey and encourage everyone to find something they enjoy and find their flow. Great work man! ❤❤❤
I love what you are doing! Flow state has been a regular capture while hula hooping and painting. I can hoop for hours and find myself lost in movement. It is Being in tune with everything. I feel at peace in flow with the hoop and the paintbrush. I am listening to my heart and trusting the process. I am here to serve humanity through art and plastic circles. Even if I am not sure how it will work out, I am open to the journey.” Kimberly Blake aka Isabella Isamazing
Flow is that state when you are no longer spinning the poi, you are the poi spinning. The boundary between you and the poi ceases. There is no sense of time or space, only the moment only liquid like motion. I do agree this exists with anything one can do. Its sort of a rythm to your task, an algorithm you follow. But with other things there is not the same degree of freedom you have with the Poi so it is not exactly the same. I have experienced this more strongly with gloving than poi and I think it is because of a larger degree of freedom. In my mind Parkour is the ultimate form of flow because it represents complete freedom of movement.
Being attention deficit, I associate a flow state with hyperfocus (and comes up in lots of interactive activities I do). It is a moment where thinking doesn't go away but takes a back seat to feeling and doing. The description you used is very accurate as immersion in the present blocks the passage of time. The continual feedback and challenge of poi really aids in creating a flow state of mind. I think of "flow" in general as a term for describing movement though. It's continual, smooth, and often repetitive motion is almost a style to be contrasted with discontinuous, abrupt, or pattern-breaking motions. You can have flowing motion without being in a flow state, and you can be in a flow state with a chaotic style of motion. Hope that helps.
@Drex As a Tech spinner myself, i can relate to the feeling of not entering a flow state easily. I personally feel, as a tech spinner we're always self analyzing our movements as we do them, always looking for the transitions between moves, or running routine sequences we've drilled to bide time while we remember "that one trick" we want to do. All of this thought makes it difficult to "be in the moment" and let your body move by instinct. And this, to me is what flow state is, letting go of all forethought and be in the moment. I often feel like im just along for the ride watching through the first person, as my body moves. Coincidentally this is where i get most of my good ideas, and often find myself pulling out my phone to make a quick note of what i did. Love the work, keep it up and hope to meet you at kinetic! im always down to geek out on some tech
Great video. Your message is perfect and I appreciate it so much. Before I got into flow I was part of an amazing pre flow community that just shared early poi concepts fluidity...compared with what deep flow artists explain and feel it’s always been a great contrast... To answer your flow state question, I believe it depends on the prop and the environment. I always look back in envy at that one river spot that made me feel at such a place I could for instance spin a fire dart or fire staff without worry concern or simply true dance with the prop! Again! Thanks for the video!
I did not ever notice there was a controversy between what flow is. I believe flow is your natural way of spinning or using a prop. Not thinking of what moves you are going to perform but just moving. Yes you have all your tricks available to you but your not in a state of thinking what you do next you are just simply flowing. Music helps inspire the way you flow and everyone has there own natural flow. Including you. :)
I've entered flow states in more then one discipline. The one thing that stands out with each time I have entered this state is the cognitive disconnect. The thoughts that you do have are just as seamless as the moments that come as a result. You have a thought and then the actions come about. There is no well how do I make this come about it is truly as tho time stops.
Hey, Drex. Excellent video, thanks. I have experienced "flow state" in my hoop practice, when I photograph concerts, and when I make jewelry or play the piano. To me, it means losing all sense of everything but the activity; not even being able to think about anything else. It's very much like meditation for me. It doesn't happen every time I do one of those activities (except playing piano ... it takes all of my concentration, all of the time), and it's not a "goal", per se, but it's awfully nice when it happens.
Great video! I find when I'm in a "flow state" it is very similar to a meditative state but extends to the body as well, allowing for an intense concentration and a near effortless mind/body connection. I can only get to this state when I've been spinning for about 4 hours or so while trying to concentrate on the connection to my poi, though I feel with more practice I could shorten that time; much like how people "practice" meditation. Achieving a meditative state takes practice, and I believe a flow state to be equally if not more difficult to achieve. It is a wonderful feeling to have that connection with my body and to feel completely in control of that moment. Cheers!
This is interesting. I see it also happening in the sport kite and fighter kite communities. The phrase "be the kite" is used a lot. So I guess the range of props available for this is pretty huge.
I love this one, very informative. Over the years people have told me I look like I fall into a "trancelike" state. After experiencing it during my first fire spin... so your videos have been really helpful. I have a lot to learn LOL Best wishes! 🌻
Great video, Thank you but don't forget the health benefits. Mind body and spirit are energized by various movements, I got into Poi after injuring both Rotator cuff muscles in my shoulders. It was the same movement as the exercises I did when they healed, also I was looking for a body workout and a mind workout to stay sharp as I aged. I'm 54 and I suffer from Psoriatic arthritis, recently my right hand has had an episode. The flow helps me with pain and stiffness, it's a wonderful exercise as we age and the flow helps us to allow ourselves to heal.
To me a flow state is as difficult to describe as describing psychedelics to someone who's never tried them. I didn't achieve flow myself until I did two things, one I had smoked cannabis and tow I just meditated for 15 minutes and put on some organic trance. Now, I get into a deep flow state Everytime I spin regardless of sobriety, state of mind, music or lack there of. To me it's like time ceases to really mean much, it feels slower, but it's not, it's something you brain just isn't registering or something. Then there's physical pain, worry, anxiety and negative emotions kind of melting away or in the case of my recently broken shoulder numbing a bit. I no longer think about what to do with the poi next, normally if I'm not in a flow state I get into patterns and repeat combos I know, in flow state I don't think about that and just go from one move to the next, whatever feels right. Speaking of feeling, I really feel the music and by extension I feel the poi like it's an extension of my physical being. I also always spin with my eyes closed and my head looking slightly downward when I'm in flow, my girlfriend says I look like I'm sleeping standing up when I'm in flow. It took me 3 years to start feeling this way and now it happens damn near Everytime I spin.
Hey Drex... I'm a psychologist and flow artist... I love that you're discussing Csikszentmihalyi's concepts of flow... for me, I can achieve flow with my props (in regard to that sort of trance/meditative type state), but I can't hold it very long. I usually get distracted when I catch myself do something new, then I have to stop and explore it - or I'll hit myself or throw a prop and get derailed... but also, (and I wonder if this may apply to you as well), I really find a "cognitive flow" in the problem solving and theoretical aspects of these arts - understanding the underlying geometry and patterns and integrating that information into practice... when I distract myself during a meditative flow by figuring out something new, my flow shifts from meditative to cognitive and logistical - stopping to try a move over and over, exploring variations, and integrating that information back together with my existing repertoire... Having watched your videos for quite some time and having a deeper connection myself to the more tech side of the house, I wonder if (instead of not experiencing flow at all) your flow comes more in the form of cognitive thought process and information integration... just hypothesizing. ;-) Love this new video series by the way... the community needs these!
I find interesting how similar is the flow concept to the Zen concept of mushin or "mind without mind" which is the ultimate goal of japanese martial arts (budo). As all Zen concepts It's almost impossible to define but basically it's the ideal state of mind where you are no longer restrained by thoughts and you focus only in the moment, that's when a warrior could truly achieve the peak performance in a fight. In budo, mushin is a mean to an end but also the end in itself. Many Zen masters in the past used to say that "the way is everywhere", in other words they believe that no matter if you are a monk, a martial artist, a flow artist, a psychologist, a painter, a writer, etc. every activity will eventually lead you to achieve a mushin state of mind. Well that's my two cents, excellent video.
I've kind of stumbled backwards into the Flow Arts community after having been a flow artist for thirty years.
I started spinning flower sticks/devil sticks when I was 9 years old (early nineties) and I've practiced and played with them regularly ever since. When I was a teenager I started putting on music and "zoning out" for hours as I spun the sticks. I'd take them to school with me and spin them on the lawn at lunchtime. I now know I was doing "flow play."
I hadn't spun the sticks much in a few years, and recently dusted them off and got deep back into it. I decided to look up new tricks to learn online and discovered that "flow arts" was a thing. Suddenly a lot of what I had gotten out of devil stick spinning made a lot of sense. I'd been using prop manipulation to facilitate a flow state for most of my life. I just saw it as a fun skill toy.
Now I'm going to my local drum circle spin jam and making my own props.
Just signed up for monthly pledge on your patreon my friend :~} I'm a student so I'm not rolling in cash but theres no way I couldn't support you for teaching me ALL my poi skills so far on this journey. Thank you always
Thank you so much for using my definition of flow. I enter flow states everytime I pick up my buugeng. I allow myself to completely BE what I am doing and spinning and whatever my body feels it wants to do I allow it to do. Flow states are intoxicating and I love that it is because it's all natural and since I suffer with severe anxiety attacks and depression it to me is a form of meditation and completely calms me when I feel anxiety or depression surfacing. I loved this entire video and will share it with my following that's ever growing on my Facebook page @ Silent Awareness Flow Journey and encourage everyone to find something they enjoy and find their flow. Great work man! ❤❤❤
I love what you are doing! Flow state has been a regular capture while hula hooping and painting. I can hoop for hours and find myself lost in movement.
It is Being in tune with everything. I feel at peace in flow with the hoop and the paintbrush. I am listening to my heart and trusting the process. I am here to serve humanity through art and plastic circles. Even if I am not sure how it will work out, I am open to the journey.” Kimberly Blake aka Isabella Isamazing
Flow is that state when you are no longer spinning the poi, you are the poi spinning. The boundary between you and the poi ceases. There is no sense of time or space, only the moment only liquid like motion.
I do agree this exists with anything one can do. Its sort of a rythm to your task, an algorithm you follow. But with other things there is not the same degree of freedom you have with the Poi so it is not exactly the same.
I have experienced this more strongly with gloving than poi and I think it is because of a larger degree of freedom. In my mind Parkour is the ultimate form of flow because it represents complete freedom of movement.
Being attention deficit, I associate a flow state with hyperfocus (and comes up in lots of interactive activities I do). It is a moment where thinking doesn't go away but takes a back seat to feeling and doing. The description you used is very accurate as immersion in the present blocks the passage of time. The continual feedback and challenge of poi really aids in creating a flow state of mind.
I think of "flow" in general as a term for describing movement though. It's continual, smooth, and often repetitive motion is almost a style to be contrasted with discontinuous, abrupt, or pattern-breaking motions.
You can have flowing motion without being in a flow state, and you can be in a flow state with a chaotic style of motion.
Hope that helps.
@Drex As a Tech spinner myself, i can relate to the feeling of not entering a flow state easily. I personally feel, as a tech spinner we're always self analyzing our movements as we do them, always looking for the transitions between moves, or running routine sequences we've drilled to bide time while we remember "that one trick" we want to do. All of this thought makes it difficult to "be in the moment" and let your body move by instinct. And this, to me is what flow state is, letting go of all forethought and be in the moment. I often feel like im just along for the ride watching through the first person, as my body moves. Coincidentally this is where i get most of my good ideas, and often find myself pulling out my phone to make a quick note of what i did.
Love the work, keep it up and hope to meet you at kinetic! im always down to geek out on some tech
Great video. Your message is perfect and I appreciate it so much. Before I got into flow I was part of an amazing pre flow community that just shared early poi concepts fluidity...compared with what deep flow artists explain and feel it’s always been a great contrast...
To answer your flow state question, I believe it depends on the prop and the environment. I always look back in envy at that one river spot that made me feel at such a place I could for instance spin a fire dart or fire staff without worry concern or simply true dance with the prop! Again! Thanks for the video!
I did not ever notice there was a controversy between what flow is. I believe flow is your natural way of spinning or using a prop. Not thinking of what moves you are going to perform but just moving. Yes you have all your tricks available to you but your not in a state of thinking what you do next you are just simply flowing. Music helps inspire the way you flow and everyone has there own natural flow. Including you. :)
I've entered flow states in more then one discipline. The one thing that stands out with each time I have entered this state is the cognitive disconnect. The thoughts that you do have are just as seamless as the moments that come as a result. You have a thought and then the actions come about. There is no well how do I make this come about it is truly as tho time stops.
Hey, Drex. Excellent video, thanks. I have experienced "flow state" in my hoop practice, when I photograph concerts, and when I make jewelry or play the piano. To me, it means losing all sense of everything but the activity; not even being able to think about anything else. It's very much like meditation for me. It doesn't happen every time I do one of those activities (except playing piano ... it takes all of my concentration, all of the time), and it's not a "goal", per se, but it's awfully nice when it happens.
Great video! I find when I'm in a "flow state" it is very similar to a meditative state but extends to the body as well, allowing for an intense concentration and a near effortless mind/body connection. I can only get to this state when I've been spinning for about 4 hours or so while trying to concentrate on the connection to my poi, though I feel with more practice I could shorten that time; much like how people "practice" meditation. Achieving a meditative state takes practice, and I believe a flow state to be equally if not more difficult to achieve. It is a wonderful feeling to have that connection with my body and to feel completely in control of that moment. Cheers!
This is interesting. I see it also happening in the sport kite and fighter kite communities. The phrase "be the kite" is used a lot. So I guess the range of props available for this is pretty huge.
I love this one, very informative. Over the years people have told me I look like I fall into a "trancelike" state. After experiencing it during my first fire spin... so your videos have been really helpful.
I have a lot to learn LOL Best wishes! 🌻
Great video, Thank you but don't forget the health benefits. Mind body and spirit are energized by various movements, I got into Poi after injuring both Rotator cuff muscles in my shoulders. It was the same movement as the exercises I did when they healed, also I was looking for a body workout and a mind workout to stay sharp as I aged. I'm 54 and I suffer from Psoriatic arthritis, recently my right hand has had an episode. The flow helps me with pain and stiffness, it's a wonderful exercise as we age and the flow helps us to allow ourselves to heal.
+Rob Varley I haven't forgotten--health benefits are going to be the topic of the video getting posted in 2 weeks!
To me a flow state is as difficult to describe as describing psychedelics to someone who's never tried them. I didn't achieve flow myself until I did two things, one I had smoked cannabis and tow I just meditated for 15 minutes and put on some organic trance. Now, I get into a deep flow state Everytime I spin regardless of sobriety, state of mind, music or lack there of. To me it's like time ceases to really mean much, it feels slower, but it's not, it's something you brain just isn't registering or something. Then there's physical pain, worry, anxiety and negative emotions kind of melting away or in the case of my recently broken shoulder numbing a bit. I no longer think about what to do with the poi next, normally if I'm not in a flow state I get into patterns and repeat combos I know, in flow state I don't think about that and just go from one move to the next, whatever feels right. Speaking of feeling, I really feel the music and by extension I feel the poi like it's an extension of my physical being.
I also always spin with my eyes closed and my head looking slightly downward when I'm in flow, my girlfriend says I look like I'm sleeping standing up when I'm in flow. It took me 3 years to start feeling this way and now it happens damn near Everytime I spin.
To me it becomes like nothing else exist and like I'm just slowly moving my body around in a circle and allowing the poi to do all the talking