Can a fallen franchise fight its way back? Can it win back the fans if it does the right things, and does it deserve another chance? Join us as we find out.
It's called "cultural defilement" and it's part of the marxist subversion of our society. Like Yuri Bezmenov (ex-KGB) warned: if you can't defeat the west militarily or economically, you rot it from the inside by targeting the youth with degeneracy and defilement and demoralization. It has been going on since the 1960's but recently things have become so bad that it has kicked into a blatant derangement because our idiocracy no longer has any cohesion to reject it. Corporate media gaslights everyone into thinking it's good and 'progressive', and if you don't like it that must mean that you're a hateful bigot, which 90%+ of society is too cowardly to stand up against. Critical Drinker is one of the best movie reviewers on the planet but he's relegated to the fringes while the corporate reviewers are famous and wealthy and influential, because they are compliant cogs in the big machine (pushing THE MESSAGE).
@@c3bhm it's also like what J.R.R Tolkien (author of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings trilogy) said: “Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made.” And that's the problem with these SJW activist writers: Rather than creating something new that has their messaging inserted into their stories and letting it stand on it's own two feet, they insist on taking beloved franchises that people like and tainting it with their politics and ideologies while destroying the legacy that IP brought to the world, it's fanbase and it's impact on culture. At least when Tolkien, Stan Lee, George Lucas and Gene Roddenberry did it with their franchises, there was enough nuance that allowed their audience to infer what they were getting at and draw their own conclusions when it came to moral ambiguity while still telling engaging and compelling stories instead of the mentality of these activists writers where they shove it down your throats in the most blunt and insulting manner while forcing you to except their work no matter what.
The current creators of Star Trek HATE the old fans. That has not changed, because ONE producer wants to tell a Trek story. If a company says "You are not our customer; go away. You suck.", why should the fans come back? "You STILL suck; we just want your money" is not how you change hearts and minds. There is no apology; the weirdos are still in charge and still want the fans to go away. "This is not your Trek" has been the stance of Secret Hideout and Paramount-CBS since Discovery. Robert, David, even Drinker is saying "Ignore the fact they hate you; just consume product because it's less terrible than before". There is plenty of existing Trek made by people who don't hate you. I'm completely fine with letting Trek "die", because the existing stories are just fine.
A better term would be show runners, not creators - they are not creating anything but simply playing on the nostalgia of previous creators work to bring in an audience to their shallow hate filled s**t fest. Gene Roddenbery created the original and Rick Berman forged the flailing TNG in to the 3 series franchise of the 90s. Those 2 can truly be said to be the creators of Trek as we know it - and maybe Nicholas Meyer to some extent for pushing the more formal naval/military aspect onto the OG Trek films from Wrath of Khan that also spread to the later TNG based series.
Even assuming Picard season 3 is actually "good" and not just "better than the other two seasons", I certainly don't think you can count Star Trek as redeemed until it becomes a PATTERN of success or quality. One decent season does not a good show make.
And how good is it? Is it as good as the 1st 2 seasons are bad? because if it's not just tremendously good it doesn't wipe away how awful it was. And I mean I checked out before I finished season 2 and all but they had corrupted the world to the extent that they're gonna have a good season in this already polluted and corrupted timeline? who cares! Unless they do some time travel shenanigans where they wipe away the first 2 seasons of Picard, the damage is done and permanent. I felt the same way after the 1st JarJar Trek movie. Where do you go from blowing up Vulcan? everything you make at this point just sucks because the Federation has lost one of its primary worlds and is so thoroughly dimonished.
Star Trek cannot be redeemed until everything produced from 2009 onwards is decanonized, ignored and never spoken of again. An official apology wouldn't hurt either.
@@Сайтамен That's a great analogy. Another related one is people tuned in to see The Mandalorian and that kept Kathleen Kennedy in power longer. If The Mandalorian had failed right away maybe Star Wars would be under new leadership right now and on its way back to redemption. The same thing could happen to Star Trek if Pukehard season 3 gets too much support.
No, each of those had creators that truly believe their poo don't smell, and if it does smell it's a great smell that should be put in candle form like you know who did with her candle made to smell like her front hole.
Well, people are dumb, and can be so dumb that they won't know they're bad and make bad things... hence most movies and shows in the last two decades. But I agree, the three you listed seemed to be bad on purpose.
You don't reward an abusive partner by praising them for not beating you as badly. There's no redemption for what these companies have done to us over the past 5-10 years. Star Wars, Star Trek, Dr. Who, Terminator, etc - they are dead franchises. Let them rest in piece. Most of us old fans have accepted that.
The problem is that you treat bad content like abuse. It really should be about the content and not the creator. If Kurtzman has his name attached to great Trek, great for Kurtzman. If Kathleen Kennedy has her name attached great Star Wars, great for her. Is it good television you’re after, or is it revenge? And if it is revenge, over a television show, have you considered that maybe you’re too attached to television?
@@scootersays7216 that's not it. We've been told. We are not wanted. We've accepted. There is no revenge, just apathy. They deserve to fail. Stop supporting people who hate you.
@@ardendragoon - but that is it, exactly. You're taking it personally. You're making it about "the people who hate me" rather than the content they produce. If people who hate me bow to my will and make the content I want, I've conquered them. In fact, if they're spitting and gnashing their teeth as they are forced to create content that pleases me, even better. Imagine a movie with a king that slaughtered everyone who did not like him or muttered under their breath as they executed his will. If you were watching that movie, would that king be the hero or the villain? To simplify, do you want to win the culture war or feel vindicated?
@@remyd8767 Agreed. I'm upset about where they've taken the shows I loved, but the last time I checked for bruises, I didn't find any. Winning the culture war is essential, and season three of Picard sounds like a surprise victory deep in enemy territory. I want the producers of this show to know they can make money from good content.
Star Trek cannot be redeemed until it returns to what it's supposed to be, optimistic, intelligent, thought-provoking, balanced, episodic, mature and serious sci-fi drama, not action-oriented, not dark (thematically and visually), not gory, not filled with curse words, not nihilistic, not pessimistic and not preachy and overbearing. In addition, everything produced from 2009 onwards *must* be decanonized, ignored and never spoken of again. An official apology wouldn't hurt either.
A handful of good episodes from one season of a franchise that been shit for over a decade is not going to be enough to bring some people back. Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who, Marvel, DC, etc., it's not just that the companies that own these IP have to make good content, they have to stop treating the fans like garbage. And they're never going to get everyone back. And they deserve that loss.
Agreed. Now I don't care about Picard. My show was TOS and it always will be. I have a little respect for TNG, only because my girlfriend, at the time, her father had it on almost 24/7, but it's not my show. It's too neon for me. I really haven't liked anything that's come since. In fact, we had a party for the premiere of Voyager and by about 20 minutes in, everyone at the party had just stopped watching. I've probably seen all of them over the years, at least partially, but none of them have had the same attraction as TOS. Same goes with Star Wars. For me, Star Wars ended in 1983. The prequels were crap, the sequels were worse. None of it has that feel and it's the feel that matters. Therefore, even if Andor was good, I had no interest in watching it. I didn't watch Picard. I saw the first season of Discovery, only because I couldn't believe that anything could be that bad and I saw the first season of Strange New Hair, only to see if it was better. It wasn't, significantly. It's like saying that getting your finger chopped off is better than getting your arm chopped off, but who wants either one? As far as I'm concerned, if they want me back, they need to make good movies. Not better than they used to make, actually good movies and TV shows and there's painfully little of that out there these days. That means the agenda goes away entirely, they put people in that actually understand the properties and the continuity and are going to respect it all the way through and I don't think Hollywood is capable of that anymore. They're too worried about the bottom line. They don't give a damn about making good films.
In my opinion: no. And not because it can't rebound in terms of quality. I'm sure it can. But I watched these things because I loved them as a kid. There's a lot of nostalgia and childhood whimsy wrapped up in these things. And now that I've fallen out of love with them there's no reason for me to revisit them. No reason for me to share them with friends or family. Even if it gets "good" again it's just another piece of media demanding time I would rather spend on other things. The magic, once lost, cannot be saved; it's a finite resource spent in childhood and when the things you spent it on, squander it it's gone forever.
Completely agree Loz! They have permanently soured the taste of once loved nostalgic shows. The big one for me, Star Wars was ruined (rianed) forever by Disney. I cannot rewatch my original trilogy without thinking about what was done to my heroes by Disney. It’s beyond me how they keep doing it, over and over.
@@juaerez69 I can watch the OT and I do, at least once every year. It still has the magic because I don't care about Disney. The only reason I even saw most of the sequel movies was because Rifftrax did them. I have absolutely no attachment to anything that was done post-Jedi. For me, it's all been bad fanfic and I don't care about that.
The problem is I - and I doubt I'm alone in this - have moved on, found new things to do and watch. I don't hate Star Trek or Star Wars and damn them to eternal failure, I just *don't care*. My memberberries got wrung out of their juice, a creator can't bank on that. They're starting from zero. You could tell me that there's this obscure indie director made an incredibly moving 10 hour series featuring a bunch of actors I've never heard of and that's the baseline you have to overcome: Is this thing I have no investment in that's similar to something I like worth the time? Even if it is, I already have a few series like that lined up and I haven't started them yet. I'm actually reading through the Nero Wolfe novels now and I am loving them so much I'm not really bothering with the TV to-do list. Picard Season 3 isn't asking me for 10 hours. It's asking me to put down Some Buried Caesar for 10 hours, and then it's asking to jump to the head of the line in front of, for one, Arcane. That's a pretty big ask for any series.
Yep. Why would I watch Star Trek when I have the Orville? Why would I watch Star Wars when Episodes 1 - 3 and 7 - 9 were all massively disappointing? Most of all, who's going to watch through the garbage that is Picard Seasons 1 and 2 to get to season 3? I get what the Drinker said and can even agree with it about how you have to let them redeem themselves if you want to fix the problem... but the thing is - they're the ones who created the problem in the first place!
As a gamer, I care so little for it that I wouldn’t even put it on as background noise. And I get my fix for good stories and action from Video Games and intellectual discussions from Podcasts. That how far the bar has dropped.
These people have spent *years* loudly saying how much they *hate* me, and I'm supposed to just give them money because they make an episode or two of good tv? That's not how it works.
@@testcase6997 They have given plenty of signals for how much disdain they have for much of the existing Trek fanbase. Especially the White, heterosexual male parts. Even veiled insults and mockery are still insults. And in a few instances, they were quite open and brash about the audience these shows are intended for and what the spiteful agenda is they're a vehicle for.
@@testcase6997 No, they've just made something we'd obviously hate and called the old fans bigots and -ists and -phobes. They obviously love us, so long as we kiss their feet and praise the dump they're taking on the old franchise.
So many have folded like cheap lawn chairs. I can forgive mistakes, but I will never forgive the blatant malice and contempt shown to this franchise and it’s fans, nor will I forget it.
But that makes no sense. You don’t know these people, how do you expect to get good television when you don’t reward a studio for making it? You’re campaigning to scorch the earth.
@@scootersays7216 The counter is scorched Earth. We've been over this. You refuse to listen and keep asking the same question over and over again. Your point has been challenged. STOP being intellectually dishonest.
Yes, but the Leftist Establishment is all about crushing humanity. Those who rule are ruled by fear.... of people they can't control. It only gets worse from here.
The way back for the franchise is to start over, and NOT simply continue to build on the terrible foundations that they've created. That's how they come back from this. It's like erecting a golden tower of perfect construction and planning, on a foundation of diarrhea, and claiming that that should be good enough. "Just keep your eyes on the tower, and never look down at the ground" is what you're asking people to do. No.
I think it is okay to just consider a franchise over, like a classic novel series. Even if something decent with the same name is made, it is not really connected beyond a superficial level to what was made by other people in another time.
As a member of the Star Wars and Halo communities, I don't believe for one second they can redeem themselves, I've seen writers and developers lying time and again about how they've listened to the fans and learned from their mistakes, only to give you the middle finger and spit in your face even harder than before, further digging the once beloved franchise into a hellhole of a dumpster fire.
Correct! Also Season 3 didn't completely disavow and undo the inexcusably horrible previous ones, which would be the minimum requirement to regain the fans' trust. And Kurtzman still has his name attached to this and makes money off of its success and as long as that is the case, i will reject it outright! If Star Trek is to be revived, the utterly failed and disgraced Kurtzman, Goldsman and Co must go, just as Kathleen Kennedy with Star Wars! The cynical killers of these franchises and disrespectful violators of their defiled corpses must be removed without any remaining residue, before the trust of the fanbase can be regained. Because without respect, we reject!
This is the same nostalgic Trojan Horse that Dr. Who is doing. They bring back David Tennant for a few episodes to get fans back, but they will be switching back to politically correct Dr. Who as soon as they've tricked us into coming back. I like what Doomcock said about Picard season 3..."It's like watching a tribute to your dead grandmother made by the people who killed your grandmother, and they take your money to let you watch it."
Picard as a series is far too damaging and its impossible to repair what it has done. There is redemption for everything, but the only redemption possible here is that they just straight out come out and say that the first two seasons aren't canon. Not in the show, not multiverses. Not time travel. But a press release condemning the first two seasons completely. And then they'd have to start the series from the beginning again. I can't support this kind of damage just being swept under the rug, but still accepted in canon. It simply has to go. And they can do it so easily too.
I will never again be on speaking terms with a family member who has abused me. I will never again have any meaningful relationship with a lover who has been unfaithful to me. And I will never again give any money to any creative team or person who has outright stated that they hate me. "But if we have no way back from our terrible, awful decisions, then we're just not going to try to get back in the first place." Okay. Good riddance.
I think people are just tired of being burned or going through the bait and switch. Movies, tv shows, video games are the perfect example. On top of that, these corporations often come out and say the fans are some sort of ist or they are toxic and they are the problem. It’s going to take a lot of work to win back the fans you’ve trashed for years.
I cant believe people saw one episode of Picard they liked and the Critical Drinker is already bringing up this topic. Its a valid topic but its way too early to have this conversation. I was telling a coworker that right now anyone telling me Picard is suddenly "good" is going to lose any validity and interest I have in their content. I didn't want Picard, I hated what we got, and dude's career can end without me ever losing sleep at this point.
@@PanzerblitzRnR I wouldn't call it fanfiction. It is somewhat better than that. However, Stewart is painful to watch because he's just too old. Although the banter between him and Frakes is good for the most part. Meanwhile, the main thrust of the first episode, get to where Beverly is, just gets resolved because 7 of 9 disobeys a direct order. The writing, while better, is not impressive.
@@dinocarosi4303 he said it was really fan service like that was good, i dont trust his opinion he seemed so pleased that it wasn’t season 1 and 2….but is it good?
Here is the problem. if we have to depend on one director or one producer to come in and actually care about the IP and that's when we get a "good" season or show, then this isn't going to work. The owners of the IP---the actual studios who worked so hard to force copywrite law in their favor so they could only characters and shows essentially forever---need to actually take responsibility for the things they own. They need to make sure they only hire people who actually care about these IPs, not people who want to "deconstruct " them, or don't see any value in the core property other than to make a vanity project or who just outright hate the source material. Until the companies that own these IPs start actually caring about them, then no, there is no redemption. It's just luck of the draw that someone right gets hired and that's not good enough.
So, as tough as it is to say, I think that despite of trying to get better, despite of improving, despite of anything, the distaste will still remain. Some scars just don't heal. Think of it like broken vase - you can glue it back together, but the cracks will be visible all around it. And sometimes, the vase can be so broken, there's no point in fixing it. It's too broken to be fixed. In Star Wars, no matter what they'll do, Luke Skywalker will remain a broken old man, who renounced his ways because he made a mistake he shouldn't have made. And there is no fixing that. The deed is done, it's sealed. No matter how much you meddle in the past to make him look heroic, it all leads to the sequels. And in the end, he's dead, so he can't truly redeem himself, even as a force ghost (no matter how much bullshit they try to fit in though).
It is legitimately insulting to tell fans that they are wrong for not signing up for more abuse from the very same people who have been attacking and insulting them for years. All respect to Drinker, but he is dead wrong on this, and I'm disappointed that someone like him would be so naive and so insulting to his own fans.
Agreed, and they never bring it up on the show, it's annoying. It's Picard 2.0. Picard 2.0 is just a robot with his memories. It's not even discussed by those around him. It's weak writing, and if they wanted to kill him off or make him a robot, they could have done that at the end of the show.
Critical Drinker is correct that there needs to be a path to redemption. Dave may be right that they are on the correct path with Season Three. My sticking point is that they didn't man up and admit their mistake by flushing Duhscovery and Pretendcard Seasons 1 & 2 from canon and using this third season as a complete reset. Pick up from TNG canon and go straight into Picard Season Three completely divorced from the Kelvin Timeline, STD and P1&2. That is how you bring back the fans of Star Trek.
It’s not just one time or even a small handful that the studios have disrespected the fans and the franchise. It has been years and years of this. I agree with most comments here that it will take a consistent pattern of success over a long period of time to bring alot of them back.
These people have spent Years destroying what we love, insulting us at every turn, and shaming us for enjoying what came before. I am all for Redemption, but Redemption must be EARNED. One potentially good season is a good First Step, but there are Many More Steps to follow. They want my Viewership? They want my fan loyalty? Then they are going to have to Prove their Redemption is not just a One off Fluke. Until then, I’ll be passing on this series.
I remember hearing a saying that was something like: When the business is hot, you can do no wrong. When the business is cold, you can do no right. When the trend dies out, you're done.
I understand that people change in real life, but never fundamentally. The minute I saw Picard being Mr Cuddlesworth with that kid in series one I thought. "Picard was never touchy feely and he HATED kids." If they come up with something good I will probably watch it, but I no longer feel any loyalty to their brand if you will. They have no goodwill so the work will have to be not just good, but good enough to make up for letting the fans down so badly. Besides that, how dare they fucking lecture us. About anything?
Seems like you missed the episode where Picard got stuck in a turbo lift with kids in TNG. You're also forgetting how he interacted with his nephew, Picard underwent growth during TNG in regards to his feelings about children.
@@DarkYuy He was super awkward with the children in "Disaster" (the turbo lift episode), and he interacted with renee as someone awkward around children would - speaking to them more like an adult than a child. Or are you saying he really secretly enjoyed "captain picard day"? ? (I guess he did keep the banner 🤣) Picard in this new show is actually Patrick Stewart not Jean Luc Picard
Watching Picard season 3 is like a battered woman thanking her husband for beating the crap out of her and breaking all the furniture before he apologized.
And like Jordan Peterson says: the bully trespasses 3 steps against you, then takes 1 step back when you start to show meaningful resistance, because the bully's partial retreat diffuses meaningful resistance. Then once those 2 steps of trespass are normalized, they rinse and repeat the process...over and over and over. Western society has been going down that path for half a century now. And not just with our media offerings but with our civil rights as well. The founding fathers said that from time to time the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants. We haven't refreshed that tree for many generations, at this point.
There doesn't always have to be a path to redemption. If for a decade you actively shit in your hand and rub it in my face, when you stop doing that, while appreciated, isn't going to lead to the relationship getting fixed. It's like the left telling people to put how they treated the people that questioned poke-mandates behind us, except we've been demonized in these movies for over a decade now. Star Trek is dead. I stopped watching after Voyager and it has a warm place in my heart and I'm going to keep it that way.
The problem is stories are personal to people. People identify with characters and stories. These characters and stories become beloved and symbols of who they are. So when corporate execs SACRIFICE beloved characters and stories for PROFIT, people feel DEEPLY wounded and hurt. When I feel DEEPLY wounded and hurt, REPEATEDLY, I cut myself off from what hurts. So if Picard season 1 violates everything TNG stood for, I'm hurt, BUT I will give them a second chance with season 2. But if season 2 still violates everything TNG stood for, then I'm done! I don't trust them anymore to do right by the franchise.
It’s disappointing to see Drinker turn on us all so fast. Straight from “we all are tired of this” to “well if they stop it a little we should be okay right?” No drinker. They gotta give me EXACTLY what I want at this point as I’ve gotten nothing that I want from them for ten fucking years.
It’s certainly possible to redeem a franchise and return it to glory, but it’s also possible to go back to the habits of dumping on both the franchise and its fans. For me, I’m willing to give something that went south a chance if I hear enough good things about it, but I’m not going to have blind faith in it again. You can glue the pieces of a broken vase back together, but the cracks will always be there.
@sigilstone17 Despite my bittersweet/guilty pleasure stance on the Kelvin Timeline, what you said right there is a _minimum requirement_ from me- the alternate license MUST END before I'll even think of giving _any new content_ even a glance. I don't give a flying fuck if they _desperately_ hauled in the _TNG_ cast (what a fucking _disrespectful_ thing to do, btw, treating them as political pawns _rather than_ for their talents and legacies with the fans, how fucking DARE you!), and play all the leitmotifs that we instantly recognize, peehard season 3 _is not_ a "path to redemption" but rather a _whimper_ for attention from an abusive spouse. #WithoutRespectWeReject #GoWokeGoBroke
Maybe the franchise 'story' can redeem itself, but not until those involved leave. The IP should be sold to someone new for a retry before starting again.
Cultural vandalism is what it is. The damage is done and can not be undone. All the prior damage was done with Series One and Two. Accepting Series Three legitimises the previous two. Everything they wrote and happened, STILL HAPPENED.
I don't really see much redemption in the franchise dragging two ball-and-chain seasons of crap behind it, that make up the foundation of what I'm now supposed to like. I get the point of backing up behind something that has substance, in the rare occassions they actually manage to make that nowadays, and to a certain point I agree. On the other hand, I don't really feel like dancing with the corpses they have already buried with their incompetence, the stench of their putrid creative failure is simply too strong.
Well, it's similar to trying to fix a bad dish. On rare occasions you can pull it off, but most of the time you gotta start with new ingredients. In Picard's case, I barely made it through Season One and I absolutely hated what they did to Picard, the character. So I didn't see season 2 and never will. IF they want to have fans like me back, at the minimum they should publicly denounce seasons 1 and 2 and explain clearly how season 3 fixes the issues. And make damn sure I don't have to watch season 2 to catch up with season 3. Life is too short to go through another season 1 again. Bring back the old captain: the competent Picard that sacrificed his personal life for the Federation, the leader that even the Klingons respected to the degree of having him involved in the imperial succession or the almighty Q found fascinating. If I see another purple hair ensign berate Picard calling him "JP" I'm through with Kurtzman. He had and blew enough chances with me.
The setting has already been destroyed by Picard and Discovery. There's no undoing that. Doesn't matter if they start telling a decent story for a change it's not Star Trek anymore.
I hope I can watch it in blisful ignorance some day in the future if season 4 and 5 turn out to be good, and I skip seasons 1 and 2 and just start with 3. (I skipped Discovery entirely.)
It's like that old saying "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is asking permission." It's a saying that is 100% wrong. Because it's about trust, and as hard as trust can be to gain, it is easy to lose and much harder to get back. And, even if it is gotten back, there will always be that scar. Star Wars and Star Trek are in that kind of situation right now. They broke the fan's trust. They insulted and disrespected bot the fans and the franchise. Even if they can repair what was lost, it will take time, and the past won't go away. People will still remember when these creators hurt them. That's just the way Humans work.
Robert speaks a lot of truth, and it's sad but true. All businesses work like this, whether privately or publicly owned. Who's face fits, who looks good on paper, who is a bankable asset. That's about it. I couldn't put it better than when Robert said they hire who looks good on paper. It's a soulless exercise. You get mavericks who can sneak into the film business and get a project under the radar- a project ignored by the companies because they don't want to focus on it, or are too busy doing something else. Tony Gilroy did it with Rogue one and Andor. Peter Jackson did it because he filmed LOTR at the other end of the world. Spielberg, Lucas, Scorcese were mavericks in their day, but back then, businesses didn't necessarily understand filmmaking and it can be argued the great directors got away with more in the '70's. The other thing I've seen, time and again, is "indie filmmaker gets recognised for a small film at a festival" and then hired to work on a bigger project, but with massive oversight from the film companies who want new blood, but don't trust new talent to make anything of the IP they control and dictate. I'm not sure where this cycle ends. (the film industry... not my post... that's ending about now).
I'll tell you what the path to redemption is, how to win me back. Someone was commenting in another video about the She-Hulk rant about how she can control her anger because women do it infinitely more than men, over catcalls and mansplaining--to Bruce Banner who has experienced truly bitter life-altering hardships. The commenter said it's too bad they didn't actually use that speech as a plot device to have the She-Hulk character grow. If, over the course of the season, she experienced true trauma and by the end of the season realized how vapid her younger self's complaints were, and perhaps that women do not have a monopoly on suffering, and as a result became a better and stronger person, then...holy shirt, would they have won my respect! And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a blueprint for how to gracefully redeem your franchise.
This language makes me think of abused spouses. "So-and-so is different now! They cleaned up the living room. It doesn't matter that I've still got the cuts on my face from when they hit me." HotD is the best example of how a franchise can redeem itself: leave it alone for a few years and give it to someone else.
To me, positing a path to redemption for people with such a creatively bankrupt and even malicious track record of production could only come from someone with saintly compassion or someone who cares about good small-screen storytelling above all else. Whatever combination of either/both of these qualities compelled you, Drinker, it was well said.
Until the vandal management, and various decision makers for Disney (and subsidiaries) Paramount, Warner Brothers, BBC, etc, … are gone and the actual creative folks getting back in charge, these IPs don’t stand a chance. The current swarm of decision-makers are incapable of seeing or admitting that they caused this financial downturn. Hopefully we’ll continue to get more Dredd and other titles that respectful of their respective IPs’ characters and stories.
Nonsense. I'm still of the opinion that the end-game of Season Three is to axe-murder all those beloved characters as the final fuck you to the fans. "Hey, we brought back all your favorite characters, now we're throwing them into the wood chipper because you didn't like Michael Burnham, you misogynists! How do you like that? HAHAHA!"
Even if I were willing to keep an open mind and forgive and forget, the problem for me is that I’ve been broken of the mainstream entertainment habit. After hardly watching any of their nonstop crap for over eight long years now, I no longer feel the compulsion to watch anything they make, even if it might actually be good. It’s a liberating feeling, and going back holds no appeal.
My Anger is all I have, and nothing will take it away. As Picard once said in First Contact... "THEY WILL PAY FOR WHAT THEY HAVE DONE!!!" I am gonna Captain Ahab CBS Kurtzman Trek until they have been buried 6 feet deep and beyond
One of the problems with watching the Drinker is learning about how good stories are constructed. Andor was... interesting? But I think it was the lowered expectations, and some terrific acting, that saved it. A few times my wife and I would look at each other, and she would say, "There was no setup for that... Again. Why does the Drinker like this?" So I fear a similar experience with Season 3. Are my expectations so low that I'll enjoy it? I guess that's fine, but unfortunately the Drinker has turned us into super-watchers! (Kinda like super-tasters. Or Homer Simpson with the crayon pulled out of his brain.)
I found Andor to be a decent... something. I can't even categorize it. It had good actors and certain good scenes, but awful pacing and a lot of meaningless characters. My personal opinion is that Drinker and the others are just following the algorithms to get more money. Which is understandable, just not very... moral.
@@aurex8937 I agree that there were too many stray lines in Andor, and they either didn't connect well or just weren't compelling enough to care about. But until I see something that indicates otherwise, I'll take the Drinker at face value. So far everything I've seen from him, whether I agree or not, comes from a genuine love of good storytelling and a desire to see better from the people with the resources and talent to deliver. I don't know some of the other commenters online well, only that they aren't as concise and entertaining as he is.
@@15thirty Drinker is really entertaining and has always given me the impression of being a great dude. That's why I was a little flabbergasted when he invited that Burnell guy and he droned about how great Season 3 of Picard is with Drinker agreeing. It was really strange.
A series can always come back. You just need writers that care and know what they're doing, which is a big ask I know. There's series (mainly videogames) that have been going on for 35+ years and still have millions of fans, chomping at the bit to get their hands on it.
I think one great example of this is Resident Evil, we had our downs and highs, we had Re 4 that molded survival horror by the 2000s, and also a lot of rather uninspired or just messy games like Re6, still got a lot of worth on re 7 when they recreated that
The way Hollywood reacted to the Writer's Strike 20 years ago murdered creativity there. I keep waiting for Indy films to strike back..... but I guess wHorrywood's absolute monopoly cannot be challenged yet.
"no one sets out to make something bad".... Have you seen Velma, Witcher Blood Origin, She-Hulk, Rings of Power, Halo... I argue that shit was intentional.
Kurtzman's name is on it. I am glad you like it, but ALL Kurtzmantrek must die. If Kurtzman gets renewed with Paramount to give us years more NuTrek because of this you all will be reminded vocally and often.
No. And I say that as a lifelong Trek fan, and a lover of TNG in particular. I grew up on reruns of that show, and was even willing to forgive most of the bad TNG movies because I just liked seeing the characters doing stuff. Even fairly stupid stuff. But the current showrunners openly hate Trek fans, and Patrick Stewart himself has expressed nothing but contempt for us as well. It does not deserve another chance, and it should not be given one. Trek as a franchise has had all the chances an IP could have ever asked for. It deserves to die. And that's all assuming that Pukhard is actually not garbage anymore, which I am not holding my breath on.
No. There doesn’t have to be a way back. Sometimes an era (or franchise) is over and new stuff needs to created. Nothing they do will hurt the good Star Trek from the past. We don’t have to have more Star Trek content. They have proved that it’s time to move on, and some of us have.
You can't smack your best friend in the face, out of the blue, and then immediately expect him to go down the pub with you, for a few beers. I feel it's the same with Picard.
when even Drinker is telling us to consume product, even though the showrunners hate us, just because it's better than other Trek projects, you know we are in the bad timeline
Your morbid attachment to these franchises is the only hold they have over you. If you had already moved on the problem would be solved. If it doesn't take much for you to go back, the only lesson they'll learn is that no matter what they do, you'll always be there. You always talk about being pro-consumer but it seems to me that at this point you are acting more like an addict.
It comes down to the idea that it's not really 'good star trek' it might be a good story, it might just be better then what was there, but it's definately lost the feel, lost the core of what made star trek... Star Trek. The reason we don't want to support things like this is simply... we don't trust the creators to look at this, and figure out what made this season better then others. We don't trust them to continue on that path, and not just go back to the same shit they were doing before. And thats aside from the fact that even if it's a good story the details are all wrong. Little things that made the universe feel right. You can drop a storm trooper into Hogwarts and tell a good story about him being there... but it won't make a lick of sense. THAT is a consideration, and P3 has that issue in spades.
Hearing the comments about Patrick Stewart and his age and how that makes him frail, and then remembering who is the president of the US right now and his age, that's something to ponder. Not letting an actor back because he is (as Don Lemon calls it ) past his prime, but allowing a real life person to be in charge of the (formerly?) most powerful nation in the world, that is something worth pondering.
I want to give credit where its due if the show is good, but as fans we've been insulted, brow-beaten, and shamed for the things we like to the point that I just don't care. I don't care if STP Season 3 is good. The damage is done. I've long since checked out. The IP is damaged goods as far as I'm concerned now. Same with Star Wars.
I’m at the point I just don’t care about these shows anymore. It saddens me, because some of my formative memories are of watching these shows and movies with my dad. They’ve become so warped, and demented, that I don’t care about them. And it’s not just the new content, but the original content as well. Dr. Who, Star Wars, Star Trek, Harry Potter, have all been politicized so much that I just throw up my hands and find something else instead. I don’t want any of my money, time, energy or thought wasted on those things anymore. I still have Lord of the Rings- I managed to stop caring about new content before Rings of Power- the Buffyverse, Dragonheart and Firefly to escape into when I need it. And if these things get new content idgaf
The franchise? No. That's done. Too much damage, too much regret, too much hate against the fans, too much incompetence by the creators, too much political messaging. Discovery Season 5 will ruin any goodwill Picard S3 creates anyway. That being said, I can still enjoy a good season 3 as a standalone product. If it is good.
No way, man. I am not going to give any quarter to these franchises as long as the dickheads who took a giant steaming dump on them are still attached, even peripherally. If they want me to come back, they need to fire every single person who was ever associated with JJ Abrams, the Destroyer of Franchises, or Bad Robot and start over on something completely new. NOT a sequel or a prequel.
Anyone else get the feeling Drinker can’t stand Dave Cullen. I’ve watched he’s both channels for a while, it was actually Cullen that brought me to the Drinker. 🍻. But I notice Cullen makes shows that can be word for word in places the same as Drinkers previous videos.
I've been saying this for some years by now. The sooner you assume that your favorite franchises ended decades ago, the sooner you'll stop being disappointed. If "second parts were never good", what the hell do you expect from Terminator 6???
Star Trek for me has always been a bit of action but more of a morality tale type of series. It was also very optimistic and the crew seemed to like and respect each other. If they can't get back to that then they are doomed to fail forever. Star Trek is not an action type of show which was what New Trek doesn't understand.
Can A Franchise Redeem Itself? Imo: In 2010, maybe 2011, it would have had the chance. I don't hate Trek now, I just don't give a fuck anymore. A way back? 10-20 year break, then throw away NuTrek, maybe do a reboot. I know that companies won't wait 10-20 years, but I have considered Trek dead for over a decade. Just let it rest in peace.
I think what's going on here is that we've had so many years of watching horrible movies and tv shows that when something mediocre comes along like Picard S3, we praise it for being good. Sad that the bar is set that low. And sad that our favorite creators can't acknowledge that mediocre is still bad.
Some of my earliest memories are of watching Star Trek. A five year old boy living in a small town in Virginia in 1973. Seeing a larger than life Captain James T. Kirk commanding a crew of Men[emphasis added] hailing from, to me at the time, exotic countries from around the globe. Kirk had style. He had intelligence. He had strength & charisma. He possessed conviction, morality & discipline. Captain James T. Kirk was a Man. A role-model I aspired to be. "Can a Franchise redeem itself?" Of course it can. But the path to Redemption is forward. And the first step in moving forward is being honest: The primary audience for Star Trek is Caucasian Men. With the emphasis on Men. Cast the show accordingly. The magic of Star Trek is seeing men from different nations and backgrounds working together to explore strange new worlds and overcome allegorical challenges. While being led by a member of that 'Primary Audience.' Write the show accordingly. Redemption cannot be found by attempting to reshape the past. Redemption is found by accepting the past, learning from it, and creating a new future.
My problem. These shows do not exist in a vacuum. This season might be great, but it doesn't undo the damage of Picard 1 & 2. The only way I'd pick up star trek again is if they reconned the trash out of canon and picked up we're good trek left off.
Redemption requires Repentance. and to repent , it requires a Complete change that doesn't allow for any acceptance of what is wrong. season three of picard still gives a place for the total travesty to what Star Trek is about and stands for. What is clear is , repentance hasn't happened .. the past to be moved on from is still part of the present ! Axanar and Star Trek Continues is the ways of progression because there is nothing to repent from.
They have to do as much good as the damage they have caused for me to even bother. Could be a decade after the attempt considering how much poison they threw at fans.
Sorry but all the major franchises I’ve already given up on and there’s absolutely nothing they can do to get me back. They’ve already butchered so much stuff and I really don’t care what they do anymore I’m out.
Robert Meyer Burnett: "Nobody sets out to make something bad."
Taika Waititi: "I'll ruin your mythos in a heartbeat, baby."
It's called "cultural defilement" and it's part of the marxist subversion of our society. Like Yuri Bezmenov (ex-KGB) warned: if you can't defeat the west militarily or economically, you rot it from the inside by targeting the youth with degeneracy and defilement and demoralization. It has been going on since the 1960's but recently things have become so bad that it has kicked into a blatant derangement because our idiocracy no longer has any cohesion to reject it. Corporate media gaslights everyone into thinking it's good and 'progressive', and if you don't like it that must mean that you're a hateful bigot, which 90%+ of society is too cowardly to stand up against. Critical Drinker is one of the best movie reviewers on the planet but he's relegated to the fringes while the corporate reviewers are famous and wealthy and influential, because they are compliant cogs in the big machine (pushing THE MESSAGE).
@@c3bhm it's also like what J.R.R Tolkien (author of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings trilogy) said: “Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made.”
And that's the problem with these SJW activist writers: Rather than creating something new that has their messaging inserted into their stories and letting it stand on it's own two feet, they insist on taking beloved franchises that people like and tainting it with their politics and ideologies while destroying the legacy that IP brought to the world, it's fanbase and it's impact on culture. At least when Tolkien, Stan Lee, George Lucas and Gene Roddenberry did it with their franchises, there was enough nuance that allowed their audience to infer what they were getting at and draw their own conclusions when it came to moral ambiguity while still telling engaging and compelling stories instead of the mentality of these activists writers where they shove it down your throats in the most blunt and insulting manner while forcing you to except their work no matter what.
Velma creators: "Well, yes... but actually no"
The current creators of Star Trek HATE the old fans. That has not changed, because ONE producer wants to tell a Trek story. If a company says "You are not our customer; go away. You suck.", why should the fans come back? "You STILL suck; we just want your money" is not how you change hearts and minds. There is no apology; the weirdos are still in charge and still want the fans to go away. "This is not your Trek" has been the stance of Secret Hideout and Paramount-CBS since Discovery. Robert, David, even Drinker is saying "Ignore the fact they hate you; just consume product because it's less terrible than before". There is plenty of existing Trek made by people who don't hate you. I'm completely fine with letting Trek "die", because the existing stories are just fine.
If it's good, great. It won't last.
A better term would be show runners, not creators - they are not creating anything but simply playing on the nostalgia of previous creators work to bring in an audience to their shallow hate filled s**t fest.
Gene Roddenbery created the original and Rick Berman forged the flailing TNG in to the 3 series franchise of the 90s.
Those 2 can truly be said to be the creators of Trek as we know it - and maybe Nicholas Meyer to some extent for pushing the more formal naval/military aspect onto the OG Trek films from Wrath of Khan that also spread to the later TNG based series.
@@Travixius1 We know it wont because the S3 show runner is already done and gone.
@Redvenge well said
Dont worry. As usual mauler will correct drinkers opinions for him and he'll 180 on that
Even assuming Picard season 3 is actually "good" and not just "better than the other two seasons", I certainly don't think you can count Star Trek as redeemed until it becomes a PATTERN of success or quality. One decent season does not a good show make.
And how good is it? Is it as good as the 1st 2 seasons are bad? because if it's not just tremendously good it doesn't wipe away how awful it was. And I mean I checked out before I finished season 2 and all but they had corrupted the world to the extent that they're gonna have a good season in this already polluted and corrupted timeline? who cares! Unless they do some time travel shenanigans where they wipe away the first 2 seasons of Picard, the damage is done and permanent.
I felt the same way after the 1st JarJar Trek movie. Where do you go from blowing up Vulcan? everything you make at this point just sucks because the Federation has lost one of its primary worlds and is so thoroughly dimonished.
Star Trek cannot be redeemed until everything produced from 2009 onwards is decanonized, ignored and never spoken of again. An official apology wouldn't hurt either.
@@PoolKid75 Great idea!
Same with Star Wars, Andor doesn't redeem the franchise.
@@Сайтамен That's a great analogy. Another related one is people tuned in to see The Mandalorian and that kept Kathleen Kennedy in power longer. If The Mandalorian had failed right away maybe Star Wars would be under new leadership right now and on its way back to redemption. The same thing could happen to Star Trek if Pukehard season 3 gets too much support.
“Nobody sets out to make something bad”
Velma. She Hulk. Rings of power.
No, each of those had creators that truly believe their poo don't smell, and if it does smell it's a great smell that should be put in candle form like you know who did with her candle made to smell like her front hole.
What Rings of Power? Never happened. Doesn't exist to me.
Well, people are dumb, and can be so dumb that they won't know they're bad and make bad things... hence most movies and shows in the last two decades.
But I agree, the three you listed seemed to be bad on purpose.
Cowboy Bebop live action
Wheel of Time, the Witcher, etc.
You don't reward an abusive partner by praising them for not beating you as badly. There's no redemption for what these companies have done to us over the past 5-10 years. Star Wars, Star Trek, Dr. Who, Terminator, etc - they are dead franchises. Let them rest in piece. Most of us old fans have accepted that.
The problem is that you treat bad content like abuse.
It really should be about the content and not the creator. If Kurtzman has his name attached to great Trek, great for Kurtzman.
If Kathleen Kennedy has her name attached great Star Wars, great for her.
Is it good television you’re after, or is it revenge? And if it is revenge, over a television show, have you considered that maybe you’re too attached to television?
@@scootersays7216 that's not it. We've been told. We are not wanted. We've accepted. There is no revenge, just apathy.
They deserve to fail. Stop supporting people who hate you.
@@ardendragoon - but that is it, exactly. You're taking it personally. You're making it about "the people who hate me" rather than the content they produce.
If people who hate me bow to my will and make the content I want, I've conquered them. In fact, if they're spitting and gnashing their teeth as they are forced to create content that pleases me, even better.
Imagine a movie with a king that slaughtered everyone who did not like him or muttered under their breath as they executed his will. If you were watching that movie, would that king be the hero or the villain?
To simplify, do you want to win the culture war or feel vindicated?
I think you need a little perspective here. "done to us"? They're just TV shows and movies. Lol
@@remyd8767 Agreed. I'm upset about where they've taken the shows I loved, but the last time I checked for bruises, I didn't find any.
Winning the culture war is essential, and season three of Picard sounds like a surprise victory deep in enemy territory.
I want the producers of this show to know they can make money from good content.
Star Trek cannot be redeemed until it returns to what it's supposed to be, optimistic, intelligent, thought-provoking, balanced, episodic, mature and serious sci-fi drama, not action-oriented, not dark (thematically and visually), not gory, not filled with curse words, not nihilistic, not pessimistic and not preachy and overbearing. In addition, everything produced from 2009 onwards *must* be decanonized, ignored and never spoken of again. An official apology wouldn't hurt either.
*WOW DRINKER, THAT IS SUCH A BAD DYE JOB!*
Hear, hear Poolkid!
The Kelvinverse Star Trek movies are in their own universe
@@jokester3076 not the same as decanonized, and clearly not being ignored.
My thoughts exactly.
A handful of good episodes from one season of a franchise that been shit for over a decade is not going to be enough to bring some people back.
Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who, Marvel, DC, etc., it's not just that the companies that own these IP have to make good content, they have to stop treating the fans like garbage.
And they're never going to get everyone back.
And they deserve that loss.
*WOW DRINKER, THAT IS SUCH A BAD DYE JOB!*
Agreed. Now I don't care about Picard. My show was TOS and it always will be. I have a little respect for TNG, only because my girlfriend, at the time, her father had it on almost 24/7, but it's not my show. It's too neon for me. I really haven't liked anything that's come since. In fact, we had a party for the premiere of Voyager and by about 20 minutes in, everyone at the party had just stopped watching. I've probably seen all of them over the years, at least partially, but none of them have had the same attraction as TOS. Same goes with Star Wars. For me, Star Wars ended in 1983. The prequels were crap, the sequels were worse. None of it has that feel and it's the feel that matters. Therefore, even if Andor was good, I had no interest in watching it. I didn't watch Picard. I saw the first season of Discovery, only because I couldn't believe that anything could be that bad and I saw the first season of Strange New Hair, only to see if it was better. It wasn't, significantly. It's like saying that getting your finger chopped off is better than getting your arm chopped off, but who wants either one?
As far as I'm concerned, if they want me back, they need to make good movies. Not better than they used to make, actually good movies and TV shows and there's painfully little of that out there these days. That means the agenda goes away entirely, they put people in that actually understand the properties and the continuity and are going to respect it all the way through and I don't think Hollywood is capable of that anymore. They're too worried about the bottom line. They don't give a damn about making good films.
no its not but refusing to watch when they give you what fans want will cause them to never even try again
@@deanfirnatine7814 And? Why do they deserve the chance to try?
@@deanfirnatine7814 And if they never try again it remains dead and they remain the ones who killed it.
In my opinion: no. And not because it can't rebound in terms of quality. I'm sure it can.
But I watched these things because I loved them as a kid. There's a lot of nostalgia and childhood whimsy wrapped up in these things. And now that I've fallen out of love with them there's no reason for me to revisit them. No reason for me to share them with friends or family. Even if it gets "good" again it's just another piece of media demanding time I would rather spend on other things. The magic, once lost, cannot be saved; it's a finite resource spent in childhood and when the things you spent it on, squander it it's gone forever.
*WOW DRINKER, THAT IS SUCH A BAD DYE JOB!*
Completely agree Loz! They have permanently soured the taste of once loved nostalgic shows. The big one for me, Star Wars was ruined (rianed) forever by Disney. I cannot rewatch my original trilogy without thinking about what was done to my heroes by Disney. It’s beyond me how they keep doing it, over and over.
Exactly
@@juaerez69 I can watch the OT and I do, at least once every year. It still has the magic because I don't care about Disney. The only reason I even saw most of the sequel movies was because Rifftrax did them. I have absolutely no attachment to anything that was done post-Jedi. For me, it's all been bad fanfic and I don't care about that.
@Loz exactly this!
The problem is I - and I doubt I'm alone in this - have moved on, found new things to do and watch. I don't hate Star Trek or Star Wars and damn them to eternal failure, I just *don't care*. My memberberries got wrung out of their juice, a creator can't bank on that. They're starting from zero. You could tell me that there's this obscure indie director made an incredibly moving 10 hour series featuring a bunch of actors I've never heard of and that's the baseline you have to overcome: Is this thing I have no investment in that's similar to something I like worth the time? Even if it is, I already have a few series like that lined up and I haven't started them yet. I'm actually reading through the Nero Wolfe novels now and I am loving them so much I'm not really bothering with the TV to-do list. Picard Season 3 isn't asking me for 10 hours. It's asking me to put down Some Buried Caesar for 10 hours, and then it's asking to jump to the head of the line in front of, for one, Arcane. That's a pretty big ask for any series.
*WOW DRINKER, THAT IS SUCH A BAD DYE JOB!*
*WOW DRINKER, THAT IS SUCH A BAD DYE JOB!*
Yep. Why would I watch Star Trek when I have the Orville? Why would I watch Star Wars when Episodes 1 - 3 and 7 - 9 were all massively disappointing?
Most of all, who's going to watch through the garbage that is Picard Seasons 1 and 2 to get to season 3?
I get what the Drinker said and can even agree with it about how you have to let them redeem themselves if you want to fix the problem... but the thing is - they're the ones who created the problem in the first place!
Hatred is not the killer of media, apathy is
As a gamer, I care so little for it that I wouldn’t even put it on as background noise.
And I get my fix for good stories and action from Video Games and intellectual discussions from Podcasts. That how far the bar has dropped.
These people have spent *years* loudly saying how much they *hate* me, and I'm supposed to just give them money because they make an episode or two of good tv? That's not how it works.
They’ve never said they hate you. Stop playing the victim.
@@testcase6997 They have given plenty of signals for how much disdain they have for much of the existing Trek fanbase. Especially the White, heterosexual male parts. Even veiled insults and mockery are still insults. And in a few instances, they were quite open and brash about the audience these shows are intended for and what the spiteful agenda is they're a vehicle for.
@@testcase6997 No, they've just made something we'd obviously hate and called the old fans bigots and -ists and -phobes. They obviously love us, so long as we kiss their feet and praise the dump they're taking on the old franchise.
@@axelhopfinger533 Can you find me a quote of them saying they hate you?
I kinda despise people like you who get off to this sht
@@whenpigsfly8178 Can you give me a quote where they say they hate you?
Why do you love being a victim pssy
No. There is no redemption as long as the same people who turned on us are still in charge.
So many have folded like cheap lawn chairs. I can forgive mistakes, but I will never forgive the blatant malice and contempt shown to this franchise and it’s fans, nor will I forget it.
But that makes no sense. You don’t know these people, how do you expect to get good television when you don’t reward a studio for making it?
You’re campaigning to scorch the earth.
@@scootersays7216 Jesus Christ buddy do you have a stake in Paramount or something? You're not convincing anybody. Stop it.
@@slade52 - I still don't hear a counter to my argument. You've made a flimsy ad hominem attack, but my point stands unchallenged.
@@scootersays7216 The counter is scorched Earth. We've been over this. You refuse to listen and keep asking the same question over and over again. Your point has been challenged. STOP being intellectually dishonest.
Star Trek once inspired a lot of people in the real world to do important things with their lives.
We need that kind of Star Trek again.
Yes, but the Leftist Establishment is all about crushing humanity. Those who rule are ruled by fear.... of people they can't control.
It only gets worse from here.
That Star Trek is called The Oriville.
Star Trek is dead.
We don't need it.
Look to other stories for entertainment and inspiration.
*WOW DRINKER, THAT IS SUCH A BAD DYE JOB!*
Well said Twerkin
The way back for the franchise is to start over, and NOT simply continue to build on the terrible foundations that they've created. That's how they come back from this. It's like erecting a golden tower of perfect construction and planning, on a foundation of diarrhea, and claiming that that should be good enough. "Just keep your eyes on the tower, and never look down at the ground" is what you're asking people to do. No.
I think it is okay to just consider a franchise over, like a classic novel series. Even if something decent with the same name is made, it is not really connected beyond a superficial level to what was made by other people in another time.
As a member of the Star Wars and Halo communities, I don't believe for one second they can redeem themselves, I've seen writers and developers lying time and again about how they've listened to the fans and learned from their mistakes, only to give you the middle finger and spit in your face even harder than before, further digging the once beloved franchise into a hellhole of a dumpster fire.
Correct! Also Season 3 didn't completely disavow and undo the inexcusably horrible previous ones, which would be the minimum requirement to regain the fans' trust. And Kurtzman still has his name attached to this and makes money off of its success and as long as that is the case, i will reject it outright! If Star Trek is to be revived, the utterly failed and disgraced Kurtzman, Goldsman and Co must go, just as Kathleen Kennedy with Star Wars! The cynical killers of these franchises and disrespectful violators of their defiled corpses must be removed without any remaining residue, before the trust of the fanbase can be regained. Because without respect, we reject!
This is the same nostalgic Trojan Horse that Dr. Who is doing. They bring back David Tennant for a few episodes to get fans back, but they will be switching back to politically correct Dr. Who as soon as they've tricked us into coming back.
I like what Doomcock said about Picard season 3..."It's like watching a tribute to your dead grandmother made by the people who killed your grandmother, and they take your money to let you watch it."
Without respect, we reject!
Picard as a series is far too damaging and its impossible to repair what it has done.
There is redemption for everything, but the only redemption possible here is that they just straight out come out and say that the first two seasons aren't canon. Not in the show, not multiverses. Not time travel. But a press release condemning the first two seasons completely.
And then they'd have to start the series from the beginning again.
I can't support this kind of damage just being swept under the rug, but still accepted in canon. It simply has to go. And they can do it so easily too.
They can’t burn you again if you don’t trust their attempt at redemption.
*WOW DRINKER, THAT IS SUCH A BAD DYE JOB!*
I will never again be on speaking terms with a family member who has abused me. I will never again have any meaningful relationship with a lover who has been unfaithful to me. And I will never again give any money to any creative team or person who has outright stated that they hate me.
"But if we have no way back from our terrible, awful decisions, then we're just not going to try to get back in the first place." Okay. Good riddance.
Picard is irredeemable.
He died. I guess they want us to forget that.
@@matthewgaudet4064 That's why they never bring it up in the episodes.
I think people are just tired of being burned or going through the bait and switch. Movies, tv shows, video games are the perfect example. On top of that, these corporations often come out and say the fans are some sort of ist or they are toxic and they are the problem.
It’s going to take a lot of work to win back the fans you’ve trashed for years.
*WOW DRINKER, THAT IS SUCH A BAD DYE JOB!*
I cant believe people saw one episode of Picard they liked and the Critical Drinker is already bringing up this topic. Its a valid topic but its way too early to have this conversation. I was telling a coworker that right now anyone telling me Picard is suddenly "good" is going to lose any validity and interest I have in their content. I didn't want Picard, I hated what we got, and dude's career can end without me ever losing sleep at this point.
Keep in mind Dave Cullen has seen the entire season now. So he's judging it based on all the episodes.
@@PanzerblitzRnR I wouldn't call it fanfiction. It is somewhat better than that. However, Stewart is painful to watch because he's just too old. Although the banter between him and Frakes is good for the most part. Meanwhile, the main thrust of the first episode, get to where Beverly is, just gets resolved because 7 of 9 disobeys a direct order. The writing, while better, is not impressive.
@@dinocarosi4303 he said it was really fan service like that was good, i dont trust his opinion he seemed so pleased that it wasn’t season 1 and 2….but is it good?
@@dinocarosi4303 I thought the first 5 erpisodes...
@@saftpackerl I believe he had a short followup video where he'd stated he'd now seen it all and thought it was all quite good.
Here is the problem. if we have to depend on one director or one producer to come in and actually care about the IP and that's when we get a "good" season or show, then this isn't going to work. The owners of the IP---the actual studios who worked so hard to force copywrite law in their favor so they could only characters and shows essentially forever---need to actually take responsibility for the things they own. They need to make sure they only hire people who actually care about these IPs, not people who want to "deconstruct " them, or don't see any value in the core property other than to make a vanity project or who just outright hate the source material. Until the companies that own these IPs start actually caring about them, then no, there is no redemption. It's just luck of the draw that someone right gets hired and that's not good enough.
“Picard S3 is actually good!”
Me, super jaded: “Nah it’ll be fine”
So, as tough as it is to say, I think that despite of trying to get better, despite of improving, despite of anything, the distaste will still remain. Some scars just don't heal. Think of it like broken vase - you can glue it back together, but the cracks will be visible all around it. And sometimes, the vase can be so broken, there's no point in fixing it. It's too broken to be fixed. In Star Wars, no matter what they'll do, Luke Skywalker will remain a broken old man, who renounced his ways because he made a mistake he shouldn't have made. And there is no fixing that. The deed is done, it's sealed. No matter how much you meddle in the past to make him look heroic, it all leads to the sequels. And in the end, he's dead, so he can't truly redeem himself, even as a force ghost (no matter how much bullshit they try to fit in though).
The boy who cried “wolf” did the right thing eventually too. Sometimes it’s just too late.
Hearing these guys bend and justify lowered their standards really makes me physically ill.
It is legitimately insulting to tell fans that they are wrong for not signing up for more abuse from the very same people who have been attacking and insulting them for years. All respect to Drinker, but he is dead wrong on this, and I'm disappointed that someone like him would be so naive and so insulting to his own fans.
Are we really just going to ignore that Picard is dead? This is a robot, not Picard.
Everybody seems to miss that fact. It should be called ‘Faux Picard’.
@@TheSleepLes Faux Luc Picard.
@@TheSleepLes Jean-Luc McCartney?
Agreed, and they never bring it up on the show, it's annoying. It's Picard 2.0.
Picard 2.0 is just a robot with his memories. It's not even discussed by those around him. It's weak writing, and if they wanted to kill him off or make him a robot, they could have done that at the end of the show.
Critical Drinker is correct that there needs to be a path to redemption.
Dave may be right that they are on the correct path with Season Three.
My sticking point is that they didn't man up and admit their mistake by flushing Duhscovery and Pretendcard Seasons 1 & 2 from canon and using this third season as a complete reset.
Pick up from TNG canon and go straight into Picard Season Three completely divorced from the Kelvin Timeline, STD and P1&2. That is how you bring back the fans of Star Trek.
It’s not just one time or even a small handful that the studios have disrespected the fans and the franchise. It has been years and years of this. I agree with most comments here that it will take a consistent pattern of success over a long period of time to bring alot of them back.
These people have spent Years destroying what we love, insulting us at every turn, and shaming us for enjoying what came before.
I am all for Redemption, but Redemption must be EARNED.
One potentially good season is a good First Step, but there are Many More Steps to follow.
They want my Viewership? They want my fan loyalty?
Then they are going to have to Prove their Redemption is not just a One off Fluke.
Until then, I’ll be passing on this series.
It's never a good idea to go back to an abuser.
I remember hearing a saying that was something like: When the business is hot, you can do no wrong.
When the business is cold, you can do no right.
When the trend dies out, you're done.
I understand that people change in real life, but never fundamentally. The minute I saw Picard being Mr Cuddlesworth with that kid in series one I thought. "Picard was never touchy feely and he HATED kids." If they come up with something good I will probably watch it, but I no longer feel any loyalty to their brand if you will. They have no goodwill so the work will have to be not just good, but good enough to make up for letting the fans down so badly. Besides that, how dare they fucking lecture us. About anything?
Don't you mean "Sheer F ing hubris"?
Seems like you missed the episode where Picard got stuck in a turbo lift with kids in TNG. You're also forgetting how he interacted with his nephew, Picard underwent growth during TNG in regards to his feelings about children.
*WOW DRINKER, THAT IS SUCH A BAD DYE JOB!*
@@DarkYuy He was super awkward with the children in "Disaster" (the turbo lift episode), and he interacted with renee as someone awkward around children would - speaking to them more like an adult than a child. Or are you saying he really secretly enjoyed "captain picard day"? ? (I guess he did keep the banner 🤣)
Picard in this new show is actually Patrick Stewart not Jean Luc Picard
@@mikesully110 are u sure. Sir Patrick seems to be a really chilled out guy hanging around with his best pal Ian and his younger wife.
Watching Picard season 3 is like a battered woman thanking her husband for beating the crap out of her and breaking all the furniture before he apologized.
And like Jordan Peterson says: the bully trespasses 3 steps against you, then takes 1 step back when you start to show meaningful resistance, because the bully's partial retreat diffuses meaningful resistance. Then once those 2 steps of trespass are normalized, they rinse and repeat the process...over and over and over. Western society has been going down that path for half a century now. And not just with our media offerings but with our civil rights as well. The founding fathers said that from time to time the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants. We haven't refreshed that tree for many generations, at this point.
There doesn't always have to be a path to redemption. If for a decade you actively shit in your hand and rub it in my face, when you stop doing that, while appreciated, isn't going to lead to the relationship getting fixed. It's like the left telling people to put how they treated the people that questioned poke-mandates behind us, except we've been demonized in these movies for over a decade now. Star Trek is dead. I stopped watching after Voyager and it has a warm place in my heart and I'm going to keep it that way.
The problem is stories are personal to people. People identify with characters and stories. These characters and stories become beloved and symbols of who they are. So when corporate execs SACRIFICE beloved characters and stories for PROFIT, people feel DEEPLY wounded and hurt. When I feel DEEPLY wounded and hurt, REPEATEDLY, I cut myself off from what hurts. So if Picard season 1 violates everything TNG stood for, I'm hurt, BUT I will give them a second chance with season 2. But if season 2 still violates everything TNG stood for, then I'm done! I don't trust them anymore to do right by the franchise.
*WOW DRINKER, THAT IS SUCH A BAD DYE JOB!*
Going back to star trek now, would be like going back to that one abuser that people said they stopped drinking.
It’s disappointing to see Drinker turn on us all so fast. Straight from “we all are tired of this” to “well if they stop it a little we should be okay right?” No drinker. They gotta give me EXACTLY what I want at this point as I’ve gotten nothing that I want from them for ten fucking years.
Who is this "us"? Regardless of what changes if your standard is "exactly what I want or nothing" you're setting yourself up for misery.
@@EdgarFriendlysCivicsTeacher I gave up being reasonable years ago.
@@AggressivelyMediocre then perhaps it's not people turning on you, you're turning on them. I hope it pans out.
It’s certainly possible to redeem a franchise and return it to glory, but it’s also possible to go back to the habits of dumping on both the franchise and its fans.
For me, I’m willing to give something that went south a chance if I hear enough good things about it, but I’m not going to have blind faith in it again. You can glue the pieces of a broken vase back together, but the cracks will always be there.
*WOW DRINKER, THAT IS SUCH A BAD DYE JOB!*
Star Trek can begin its redemption by firing Kurtzman, Goldsmith, and Bad Robot. Not an ounce of mercy until that happens
*WOW DRINKER, THAT IS SUCH A BAD DYE JOB!*
@sigilstone17
Despite my bittersweet/guilty pleasure stance on the Kelvin Timeline, what you said right there is a _minimum requirement_ from me- the alternate license MUST END before I'll even think of giving _any new content_ even a glance. I don't give a flying fuck if they _desperately_ hauled in the _TNG_ cast (what a fucking _disrespectful_ thing to do, btw, treating them as political pawns _rather than_ for their talents and legacies with the fans, how fucking DARE you!), and play all the leitmotifs that we instantly recognize, peehard season 3 _is not_ a "path to redemption" but rather a _whimper_ for attention from an abusive spouse.
#WithoutRespectWeReject #GoWokeGoBroke
Maybe the franchise 'story' can redeem itself, but not until those involved leave. The IP should be sold to someone new for a retry before starting again.
Cultural vandalism is what it is. The damage is done and can not be undone. All the prior damage was done with Series One and Two.
Accepting Series Three legitimises the previous two. Everything they wrote and happened, STILL HAPPENED.
Stockholm syndrome, the lot of you. Have you forgotten the abuse of characters, lore and fans over the last ten+ years?
I don't really see much redemption in the franchise dragging two ball-and-chain seasons of crap behind it, that make up the foundation of what I'm now supposed to like.
I get the point of backing up behind something that has substance, in the rare occassions they actually manage to make that nowadays, and to a certain point I agree.
On the other hand, I don't really feel like dancing with the corpses they have already buried with their incompetence, the stench of their putrid creative failure is simply too strong.
Well, it's similar to trying to fix a bad dish. On rare occasions you can pull it off, but most of the time you gotta start with new ingredients.
In Picard's case, I barely made it through Season One and I absolutely hated what they did to Picard, the character. So I didn't see season 2 and never will. IF they want to have fans like me back, at the minimum they should publicly denounce seasons 1 and 2 and explain clearly how season 3 fixes the issues. And make damn sure I don't have to watch season 2 to catch up with season 3. Life is too short to go through another season 1 again. Bring back the old captain: the competent Picard that sacrificed his personal life for the Federation, the leader that even the Klingons respected to the degree of having him involved in the imperial succession or the almighty Q found fascinating. If I see another purple hair ensign berate Picard calling him "JP" I'm through with Kurtzman. He had and blew enough chances with me.
*WOW DRINKER, THAT IS SUCH A BAD DYE JOB!*
Yeah if you put in too much salt, you can’t take it out, you have to scrap the dish and start over.
The setting has already been destroyed by Picard and Discovery. There's no undoing that. Doesn't matter if they start telling a decent story for a change it's not Star Trek anymore.
I hope I can watch it in blisful ignorance some day in the future if season 4 and 5 turn out to be good, and I skip seasons 1 and 2 and just start with 3. (I skipped Discovery entirely.)
@Marcel Stop huffing the Copium. It is done, it is over.
@Felicity GGreene Actually I already have changed my mind. :-)
It’s like meeting your childhood hero as an adult and he’s a drunk loser. Even if he cleans up his act, the magic is gone.
It's like that old saying "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is asking permission." It's a saying that is 100% wrong. Because it's about trust, and as hard as trust can be to gain, it is easy to lose and much harder to get back. And, even if it is gotten back, there will always be that scar.
Star Wars and Star Trek are in that kind of situation right now. They broke the fan's trust. They insulted and disrespected bot the fans and the franchise. Even if they can repair what was lost, it will take time, and the past won't go away. People will still remember when these creators hurt them. That's just the way Humans work.
Robert speaks a lot of truth, and it's sad but true. All businesses work like this, whether privately or publicly owned. Who's face fits, who looks good on paper, who is a bankable asset. That's about it. I couldn't put it better than when Robert said they hire who looks good on paper. It's a soulless exercise.
You get mavericks who can sneak into the film business and get a project under the radar- a project ignored by the companies because they don't want to focus on it, or are too busy doing something else. Tony Gilroy did it with Rogue one and Andor. Peter Jackson did it because he filmed LOTR at the other end of the world. Spielberg, Lucas, Scorcese were mavericks in their day, but back then, businesses didn't necessarily understand filmmaking and it can be argued the great directors got away with more in the '70's.
The other thing I've seen, time and again, is "indie filmmaker gets recognised for a small film at a festival" and then hired to work on a bigger project, but with massive oversight from the film companies who want new blood, but don't trust new talent to make anything of the IP they control and dictate.
I'm not sure where this cycle ends. (the film industry... not my post... that's ending about now).
I'll tell you what the path to redemption is, how to win me back. Someone was commenting in another video about the She-Hulk rant about how she can control her anger because women do it infinitely more than men, over catcalls and mansplaining--to Bruce Banner who has experienced truly bitter life-altering hardships. The commenter said it's too bad they didn't actually use that speech as a plot device to have the She-Hulk character grow. If, over the course of the season, she experienced true trauma and by the end of the season realized how vapid her younger self's complaints were, and perhaps that women do not have a monopoly on suffering, and as a result became a better and stronger person, then...holy shirt, would they have won my respect! And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a blueprint for how to gracefully redeem your franchise.
The good does not wash away the bad. Years of abuse and disrespect aren't nullified just because they make something halfway decent.
This language makes me think of abused spouses. "So-and-so is different now! They cleaned up the living room. It doesn't matter that I've still got the cuts on my face from when they hit me." HotD is the best example of how a franchise can redeem itself: leave it alone for a few years and give it to someone else.
You have to get rid of the infection first before the wound can heal.
To me, positing a path to redemption for people with such a creatively bankrupt and even malicious track record of production could only come from someone with saintly compassion or someone who cares about good small-screen storytelling above all else. Whatever combination of either/both of these qualities compelled you, Drinker, it was well said.
Until the vandal management, and various decision makers for Disney (and subsidiaries) Paramount, Warner Brothers, BBC, etc, … are gone and the actual creative folks getting back in charge, these IPs don’t stand a chance. The current swarm of decision-makers are incapable of seeing or admitting that they caused this financial downturn.
Hopefully we’ll continue to get more Dredd and other titles that respectful of their respective IPs’ characters and stories.
Lesson learned: Take the kicks because every so often there will be a pat on the head.
Nonsense. I'm still of the opinion that the end-game of Season Three is to axe-murder all those beloved characters as the final fuck you to the fans. "Hey, we brought back all your favorite characters, now we're throwing them into the wood chipper because you didn't like Michael Burnham, you misogynists! How do you like that? HAHAHA!"
Kurtzman will point to the uptick in quality as proof he is getting his eye in and take full credit. No way.
Even if I were willing to keep an open mind and forgive and forget, the problem for me is that I’ve been broken of the mainstream entertainment habit. After hardly watching any of their nonstop crap for over eight long years now, I no longer feel the compulsion to watch anything they make, even if it might actually be good. It’s a liberating feeling, and going back holds no appeal.
5mins of opening credits, listing 20-30 producers is usually the first red flag.
Just shows what can be achieved with compelling characters and good storytelling.
Just a make a good show or movie and tell a good story. It’s that simple
*WOW DRINKER, THAT IS SUCH A BAD DYE JOB!*
My Anger is all I have, and nothing will take it away. As Picard once said in First Contact... "THEY WILL PAY FOR WHAT THEY HAVE DONE!!!" I am gonna Captain Ahab CBS Kurtzman Trek until they have been buried 6 feet deep and beyond
One of the problems with watching the Drinker is learning about how good stories are constructed. Andor was... interesting? But I think it was the lowered expectations, and some terrific acting, that saved it. A few times my wife and I would look at each other, and she would say, "There was no setup for that... Again. Why does the Drinker like this?"
So I fear a similar experience with Season 3. Are my expectations so low that I'll enjoy it? I guess that's fine, but unfortunately the Drinker has turned us into super-watchers! (Kinda like super-tasters. Or Homer Simpson with the crayon pulled out of his brain.)
I found Andor to be a decent... something. I can't even categorize it. It had good actors and certain good scenes, but awful pacing and a lot of meaningless characters.
My personal opinion is that Drinker and the others are just following the algorithms to get more money. Which is understandable, just not very... moral.
@@aurex8937 I agree that there were too many stray lines in Andor, and they either didn't connect well or just weren't compelling enough to care about.
But until I see something that indicates otherwise, I'll take the Drinker at face value. So far everything I've seen from him, whether I agree or not, comes from a genuine love of good storytelling and a desire to see better from the people with the resources and talent to deliver. I don't know some of the other commenters online well, only that they aren't as concise and entertaining as he is.
@@15thirty Drinker is really entertaining and has always given me the impression of being a great dude. That's why I was a little flabbergasted when he invited that Burnell guy and he droned about how great Season 3 of Picard is with Drinker agreeing. It was really strange.
Star Trek and what it was to what it is now is such a perfect symbol of our culture.
A series can always come back.
You just need writers that care and know what they're doing, which is a big ask I know.
There's series (mainly videogames) that have been going on for 35+ years and still have millions of fans, chomping at the bit to get their hands on it.
I prefer video games over movies and TV shows.
I think one great example of this is Resident Evil, we had our downs and highs, we had Re 4 that molded survival horror by the 2000s, and also a lot of rather uninspired or just messy games like Re6, still got a lot of worth on re 7 when they recreated that
The way Hollywood reacted to the Writer's Strike 20 years ago murdered creativity there.
I keep waiting for Indy films to strike back..... but I guess wHorrywood's absolute monopoly cannot be challenged yet.
"no one sets out to make something bad"....
Have you seen Velma, Witcher Blood Origin, She-Hulk, Rings of Power, Halo...
I argue that shit was intentional.
Kurtzman's name is on it. I am glad you like it, but ALL Kurtzmantrek must die. If Kurtzman gets renewed with Paramount to give us years more NuTrek because of this you all will be reminded vocally and often.
No. And I say that as a lifelong Trek fan, and a lover of TNG in particular. I grew up on reruns of that show, and was even willing to forgive most of the bad TNG movies because I just liked seeing the characters doing stuff. Even fairly stupid stuff. But the current showrunners openly hate Trek fans, and Patrick Stewart himself has expressed nothing but contempt for us as well. It does not deserve another chance, and it should not be given one. Trek as a franchise has had all the chances an IP could have ever asked for. It deserves to die. And that's all assuming that Pukhard is actually not garbage anymore, which I am not holding my breath on.
No. There doesn’t have to be a way back. Sometimes an era (or franchise) is over and new stuff needs to created. Nothing they do will hurt the good Star Trek from the past. We don’t have to have more Star Trek content. They have proved that it’s time to move on, and some of us have.
You can't smack your best friend in the face, out of the blue, and then immediately expect him to go down the pub with you, for a few beers.
I feel it's the same with Picard.
If you build it (good Trek), they will come.
Well said
"The Fruit of The Poisoned Tree" - EVERYTHING that emanates from it is shite. No, you cut that tree down and get a new tree.
when even Drinker is telling us to consume product, even though the showrunners hate us, just because it's better than other Trek projects, you know we are in the bad timeline
I've come to the realisation that on a long enough timeline, EVERYONE will sell their soul eventually.
Your morbid attachment to these franchises is the only hold they have over you. If you had already moved on the problem would be solved. If it doesn't take much for you to go back, the only lesson they'll learn is that no matter what they do, you'll always be there. You always talk about being pro-consumer but it seems to me that at this point you are acting more like an addict.
It comes down to the idea that it's not really 'good star trek' it might be a good story, it might just be better then what was there, but it's definately lost the feel, lost the core of what made star trek... Star Trek. The reason we don't want to support things like this is simply... we don't trust the creators to look at this, and figure out what made this season better then others. We don't trust them to continue on that path, and not just go back to the same shit they were doing before.
And thats aside from the fact that even if it's a good story the details are all wrong. Little things that made the universe feel right. You can drop a storm trooper into Hogwarts and tell a good story about him being there... but it won't make a lick of sense. THAT is a consideration, and P3 has that issue in spades.
Hearing the comments about Patrick Stewart and his age and how that makes him frail, and then remembering who is the president of the US right now and his age, that's something to ponder. Not letting an actor back because he is (as Don Lemon calls it ) past his prime, but allowing a real life person to be in charge of the (formerly?) most powerful nation in the world, that is something worth pondering.
C'mon Man!
I want to give credit where its due if the show is good, but as fans we've been insulted, brow-beaten, and shamed for the things we like to the point that I just don't care. I don't care if STP Season 3 is good. The damage is done. I've long since checked out. The IP is damaged goods as far as I'm concerned now. Same with Star Wars.
I’m at the point I just don’t care about these shows anymore. It saddens me, because some of my formative memories are of watching these shows and movies with my dad. They’ve become so warped, and demented, that I don’t care about them. And it’s not just the new content, but the original content as well. Dr. Who, Star Wars, Star Trek, Harry Potter, have all been politicized so much that I just throw up my hands and find something else instead. I don’t want any of my money, time, energy or thought wasted on those things anymore. I still have Lord of the Rings- I managed to stop caring about new content before Rings of Power- the Buffyverse, Dragonheart and Firefly to escape into when I need it. And if these things get new content idgaf
Love seeing Dave and The Drinker in one place! Scots-Irish all the way, baby!
👍👍👍👍. As an American, I support this
"Can A Franchise Redeem Itself?"
Not with the same writers and producers, no.
Nice to see Dave on! Great opinions imo. Lol
Robert Meyer Burnett has perfectly described post 90s Simpsons writers
A franchise yes.
THIS franchise? Fucking doubtful.
The franchise? No. That's done. Too much damage, too much regret, too much hate against the fans, too much incompetence by the creators, too much political messaging. Discovery Season 5 will ruin any goodwill Picard S3 creates anyway.
That being said, I can still enjoy a good season 3 as a standalone product. If it is good.
No way, man. I am not going to give any quarter to these franchises as long as the dickheads who took a giant steaming dump on them are still attached, even peripherally.
If they want me to come back, they need to fire every single person who was ever associated with JJ Abrams, the Destroyer of Franchises, or Bad Robot and start over on something completely new. NOT a sequel or a prequel.
Anyone else get the feeling Drinker can’t stand Dave Cullen. I’ve watched he’s both channels for a while, it was actually Cullen that brought me to the Drinker. 🍻. But I notice Cullen makes shows that can be word for word in places the same as Drinkers previous videos.
I've been saying this for some years by now.
The sooner you assume that your favorite franchises ended decades ago, the sooner you'll stop being disappointed.
If "second parts were never good", what the hell do you expect from Terminator 6???
Star Trek for me has always been a bit of action but more of a morality tale type of series. It was also very optimistic and the crew seemed to like and respect each other. If they can't get back to that then they are doomed to fail forever. Star Trek is not an action type of show which was what New Trek doesn't understand.
Can A Franchise Redeem Itself? Imo: In 2010, maybe 2011, it would have had the chance.
I don't hate Trek now, I just don't give a fuck anymore. A way back? 10-20 year break, then throw away NuTrek, maybe do a reboot. I know that companies won't wait 10-20 years, but I have considered Trek dead for over a decade. Just let it rest in peace.
I think what's going on here is that we've had so many years of watching horrible movies and tv shows that when something mediocre comes along like Picard S3, we praise it for being good. Sad that the bar is set that low. And sad that our favorite creators can't acknowledge that mediocre is still bad.
Agreed. That's what happens when people watch too much bad for too long.
Some of my earliest memories are of watching Star Trek.
A five year old boy living in a small town in Virginia in 1973. Seeing a larger than life Captain James T. Kirk commanding a crew of Men[emphasis added] hailing from, to me at the time, exotic countries from around the globe.
Kirk had style. He had intelligence. He had strength & charisma.
He possessed conviction, morality & discipline.
Captain James T. Kirk was a Man. A role-model I aspired to be.
"Can a Franchise redeem itself?"
Of course it can.
But the path to Redemption is forward.
And the first step in moving forward is being honest:
The primary audience for Star Trek is Caucasian Men. With the emphasis on Men.
Cast the show accordingly.
The magic of Star Trek is seeing men from different nations and backgrounds working together to explore strange new worlds and overcome allegorical challenges. While being led by a member of that 'Primary Audience.'
Write the show accordingly.
Redemption cannot be found by attempting to reshape the past.
Redemption is found by accepting the past, learning from it, and creating a new future.
Will you settle for "trans" men? 'Cause that's as close as you'll get
My problem. These shows do not exist in a vacuum. This season might be great, but it doesn't undo the damage of Picard 1 & 2. The only way I'd pick up star trek again is if they reconned the trash out of canon and picked up we're good trek left off.
Redemption requires Repentance. and to repent , it requires a Complete change that doesn't allow for any acceptance of what is wrong. season three of picard still gives a place for the total travesty to what Star Trek is about and stands for.
What is clear is , repentance hasn't happened .. the past to be moved on from is still part of the present !
Axanar and Star Trek Continues is the ways of progression because there is nothing to repent from.
Repent is one word I would like to hear more of.
They have to do as much good as the damage they have caused for me to even bother.
Could be a decade after the attempt considering how much poison they threw at fans.
A franchise might possibly redeem itself, but THIS franchise certainly has NOT.
Sorry but all the major franchises I’ve already given up on and there’s absolutely nothing they can do to get me back. They’ve already butchered so much stuff and I really don’t care what they do anymore I’m out.
Nope. Let it all burn. Every single IP should have the right to stop completely, and rest in peace. Especially if it has been done very, very dirty.
"Dave Cullen - Unpaid Shill" made me laugh