As someone who is likely in that 90%, could you enlighten us? What is "actually" playing yugioh? I don't mean to be rude, but I've heard this before in general or specifically about me and I see an opportunity to actually get a response on it.
i think its 90% of viewers dont play yugioh lol. I havent touched yugioh since like 2017 personally, but consume so much yugituber content (thanks progplayoffs) because theyre entertaining. But it very easy for people on the outside to just talk shit as they do on the internet.
@@liviousgameplay1755 i would also consider myself to be in the 90% but still: there is a high difference in playing yugioh and PLAYING Yugioh. You can see it in this example that people dont listen to mbt and they dont understand what hes saying. Hes saying that they expected fiendsmith to be at 70-80% playrate ie. Tier 0 but its "only" at 50% which is better than anyone thought. And he also brings up that multiple people argue that bc there are 6 fiendsmith cards in every deck it IS a tier 0 format which is not true. As he explains the engine has different uses in every deck yubel/fiend is not the same as snakeeye/fiend. Which should be clear as day. Another example is just overall gameplay understanding: a lot of people dont know what an inherent summon is or a lot of rulings or the different parts of the battlephase which are actually insanely important sometimes. My point is that people like Jesse cotton f.e. have insanely better game understanding than 90% of the playerbase which either play it casually or online only. But those are mostly the people that complain about these things bc they have no understanding of yugioh. Its the same as tearelement format a few years ago and this is my opinion (and MBTs) that it was still the most fun format in ages bc it was flexable and skillbased bc u needed to know how to play yugioh in the mirror match. Ofc that doesnt mean the format was great or healthy but it was fun and skillbased even if it was tier 0. If you want another opinion on that topic ask other professionals that have WCS tops and ask them if they thought the format was as bad as they thought. Im sure a lot of them will say that gimmick puppet was worse :D (Also sorry for the huge block i kinda yapped longer than i wanted to)
@@soulflame99 yes exactly. Most of those viewers dont play yugioh professionaly and just dont like the format and so instantly become immune to any kind of arguments. Ofc it is an unhealthy format but thats not what MBT said at all. Shows again whats wrong with most people nowadays: as soon as you say something against their agenda they start screaming and leaving the diskussion...
Not only they don't know how to play the game, they also don't know how a corporation such as Konami operates, they are not going to ban cards that they just released.
I would say the title "yugiohs terrible new format... Is ok?" Is contributing a lot to the bad responses, cuz by the title this implies it's an ok format, perhaps a format that you personally are ok with. So I think that's one of the reasons why so many people are mistakenly reading this as a defense.
We're still in Snake-Eye format debatably, even after the last banlist. SE Fire King still exists. I HOPE Yubel still overtakes Snake-Eye after ROTA (could maybe produce some new anti-meta picks), because otherwise we'll be stuck with the same decks that people were complaining about. Like, this wasn't just about Snake Eye. Tenpai got a lot of flack too, as did Gimmick Puppet recently. And of course D Shifter is still gatekeeping the format. Maybe people would be happy if they could play decks with a lot of GY gas like Tear or GP PUNK or what have you. If you banned OR EVEN JUST LIMITED that 1 card, suddenly a lot of decks can play the game again and the format would resolve itself. This game is easily at its best when I can just outplay my opponent using the tools inherent to my deck and not have to rely on opening a non-engine out, and decks like Tear or GP PUNK can do that when they aren't gatekept out of the meta. Like, lets be honest: Shifter's only legal right now to push new product. Konami hardly even TRIES anymore to give the impression that the hits on the list are done for the sake of balancing. At least it was a healthy mix of both balancing and pushing product during the latter half of 2023. Overall its just a frustrating business model, and people are getting fed up.
I made a joke that because Tenpai won they will kill Tenpai on the ban list and not touch Snake Eyes Someone honest to God responded to me saying “Too bad stupid Snake Eyes player, your deck will be murdered and cry about it” I have never played a Snake Eyes deck 😂
Yugioh players are genuinely some of the most spiteful dumbasses in online gaming discourse. I swear the game's design fosters this kind of attitude where it's not enough to be successful, you have to actively hate everyone else and pray to Konami that everyone around them suffers. There's also the people who have the cardboard equivalent of a Mercedes parked in front of a crack house who clearly can't afford the new $1000 deck they lose with at locals while acting like anyone who wants to enjoy a hobby in a fiscally responsible way must be poor.
In master duel when it came out, I kept turning the snake eyes engine into CraftingPoints because the cards looked boring and weak at the time, then when I saw the deck being played I was confused as to wtf was going on. Tbh you just need to take time to understand what it does for it to not be so scary. HOWEVER, KASHTIRA IS THE MOST DIFFICULT THING I HAVE EVER GONE SECOND AGAINST!!!
Legitimately when I saw that short, my thoughts were exactly as the one comment says... the reason why it's not Tier 0 is most likely the price tag attached to Fiendsmith then moved on. The intent of the short to say that it's not as represented as expected was clear to me, not sure where the rest got lost at.
I love Peeps coming on when MBT is goin' off and saying "You are right, and they are wrong, but here's where they are coming from." I think it's just the way he thinks when I see him show up on whatever channel (or the podcast) and I appreciate him for it.
"75% of the decks playing BLUE" Is sort of a mischaracterization. It's closer to "all playing sheoldred the apocalypse" or The One Ring. Fucking stupid card.
It's more like if every deck in Modern was playing a Nadu/Shuko/Nantuko value engine in their pile of other stuff. I mean it's only 12 cards out of 60! Come on!
@geek593 Eh it's not just those. It's also all the dorks to accelerate it out. Also Magic players aren't pretending this is okay. We all know it's going to eat a ban because this is horrible.
@@Justiceinall That's my point. MBT is claiming Fiendsmith isn't an integral part of the decks it's currently being played in and pretending it's okay.
Regarding whether or not something is considered tier 0, it makes sense that people originating from MTG have a different understanding of it. As an example, Hogaak was widely regarded to be tier 0 during the time known as "Hogaak Summer". The Mythic Championship IV tournamet was the peak of this, with over 20% of players bringing Hogaak (the last time that amount occurred was eldrazi winter). The result of this tournament? 1 hogaak got top 8. It was defined as tier 0 due to how much it warped the metagame. Every deck that came to the tournament had over 10% of their main deck dedicated to countering it.
Remember when Jace the Mind Sculptor had to be _banned_ because upwards of 70% or every deck was running him and he was in *every single top 8 deck* at some events?
New lighting and setup is nice honestly To maybe talk about the point where Joseph says “I can’t pinpoint what’s unhealthy about it”. In my opinion it’s two things: It’s that Snake Eye either does or it doesn’t. You either hand trap them and they set up nothing or, you hand trap them and they still end up at full combo, or you board break and play through their full combo and your opponent can just search a floodgate with Beatrice. Hand traps are at their best when they lower the ceiling of what a deck is doing rather than either full stopping a deck or being negligible. The other part is that there are silver bullets to the Snake Eye strategy and they are unfortunately all extremely unfun. Stun, FTK, and Shifter decks are the next most viable strategies and they create a lot of non games. If you look back at Unchained format, Unchained was well equipped to deal with both Shifter and Stun while also being a midrange deck that set up a couple beatable pieces of interaction and certain hand traps guaranteed you to be able to lower the ceiling. Fast forward a few months, and most people look at that format pretty fondly because of that.
I wouldn’t call it a tier-0 format, in technicality, but I would call it an exclusionary format. You either play snake-eyes, or you play a deck that has very specific ways to address exactly snake-eyes. Everything else dies. And I would argue that a deck that has a way to warp the meta that strongly is tier-0, even if it didn’t take top-cuts the way tearlaments did. Every deck is now required to be half hand traps or keep the opponent from playing entirely like burn or stun.
i would think it's similar to adventure dpe right? in terms of the concept that, people either played something better than it (presumably) or everyone was forced onto it to have a measurable impact on average in a match. fiendsmith isn't unbeatable, it just raises the average power level of anything that can use it substantially to the point where if you aren't running it, you're either on some degenerate or adjacent deck that can compete/counter it. in turn the variety of what's playable is narrowed in a way that isn't enjoyable for most people. i'm discounting the fact that a lot of ppl can't even afford fiendsmith even if they wanted to play for the sake of explanation. the cost is another world of bullshit
i would like to contribute to this by saying that MBT had ber similar opinions about kashtira way back when. the deck overall wasn't as powerful as people claimed it to me. but Kashtira was still powerful enough to the point where every deck had to at least gear there deck for kashtira if they wanted to top. the difference was that the amount of options you had back then versus now were a lot more varied and enjoyable.
I'm glad it's mentioned, but Snake-Eyes Fiendsmith doesn't seem that relatively toxic, at least compared to other decks. It's a combo deck with a little *too* much gas. The most degenerate thing you really see out of them is something like Skill Drain or Blue Tears on occasion. Most times it's just the sheer amount of consistency, recursion, and interactions it gets for how little engine it needs. Is it too strong? Yes. Does it need hits? Yeah. Is it as toxic as RB with Shifter/Protos, Gimmick FTK, or Tenpei opening like a Numeron player in MD? No.
Those decks are doing said thing because of the power level of the deck you claim doesn’t seem relatively toxic. Nobody wants to play 20 handtraps just to maybe stop snake eyes fiendsmith when I could just play blowout cards instead. Its a symptom of the format we are in because of said deck
@@MaliEndzthat's such a fallacy, people have always played FTKs, floodgates or anything, no matter what the dominant decks were, and sometimes it made these decks specifically dominant. Branded is not puppet locking because of fiendsmith. Shifter decks have existed for ages. People have been FTKing for more than 20 years. Protos was a part of Swordsoul's endboard when the deck was dominant. Stop lying to yourself by pretending snake-eye, fiendsmith or whatever you can find is the reason the other decks in the room are toxic.
@@drianna75 Its irrelevant that they used to do it before because now players are now complaining about these same decks resorting to this floodgate win cons when its now the most efficient way of dealing with the top deck that plays through 5 interruptions with zero issues. Do you really think decks like branded, RB. mimighoul, exodia, flo would want to resort to said win cons? or is it the most viable way of playing these decks considering how these poorly designed archetypes come out and the only way to actually maybe get a win is to shifter and protos lock??
@@MaliEndz it's exactly what I said earlier: yes the people running these decks would resort to said wincons, because that's what they've been doing for the entire game's existence whenever they've had the occasion to, saying it's irrelevant to look at past formats makes no sense, like of course it gives you a tendancy of how players behave in a competitive setting: they play their deck to win, regardless of how miserable it feels. If you seriously believe that branded players will drop puppet the moment snake-eye gets hit, you're mad coping: it is the best way to build this deck regardless of what is dominant because stopping your opponent from playing the game is optimal, and thus this will be the way this deck will be played at high level.
@@drianna75 theres literally ZERO incentive now to not play these win cons when the best two decks eat interruptions as if nothing happened therefore now the most optimal way of dealing with it is to play floodgates and turn skips
I went to my local card store and asked the owner if he thinks we are in a tier 0 format. His exact words were "this isn't tier 0. Tearlaments was tier 0. This is a toxic tier 1 format."
I dont think the argument that snake eyes fiendsmith “gets to play yugioh” is real when it is no different than activate shifter, protos, gimmick puppet lock with extra steps. Deck plays through virtually everything and sets up an ftk board itself which would be no different than if I were to resolve protos
In my opinion, this is a tier zero format but not in the way of previous formats where one deck is clearly dominant. We have a sub engine that is incredibly dominant that also is kept out of player's hands by product release timing and rarity distribution. I think it would honestly be beneficial to coin a new term for formats like this with just an engine that is very dominant/for when product is done in a way that makes it incredibly hard to obtain cards resulting is less play than usual. It feels to me as if with the current direction the game is headed, we're gonna get to a point where in some formats, there will be a deck/archetype isn't tier zero by traditional sense, but could be considered tier zero due to other factors.
I think my issue with arguing that it's not a Tier 0 format is that currently (by own MBT's own accounting othe NAWCQ) that the cards had only recently come out and there were issues with acquiring them in time. I have heard frequent talks about how getting cards in the EU can also be problematic, so I imagine the same could be said even there a couple weeks after the release. And another issue is that, we also kinda just had this same "Maybe the format is ok?" moment with Tenpai not too long ago. People were playing it and thought it was fine during the initial release, but then after the dust settled and people got used to the meta it turned out no it was still a Tier 0 Snake-Eyes format. I think it's just too early to tell and when we still have Snake-Eyes making up half the meta (at least if the NAWCQ tops are any indicator) then the signs are currently pointing to the fact that it may be true.
I remember a great video where it explains the weakness and how to interact the fiendsmith engine in every top deck. And the comment section where just complains about the decks and the format or just quitting the game til a banlist is out. That speaks by itself the quality of our playerbase
As someone who plays both yugioh and mtg semi competitively that mtg is WILD! Like my brother in christ every cedh deck runs the same 15-30 cards as every other deck in its color. Black has a suite of 4 tutors and 3 rituals. Blue has 14 counter spells and 5 draw engines. Red has wheels and rituals. Green has the same 5 interaction pieces and let's not forgets the same 10 artifacts in 90% of the decks I fucken counted! Just say you don't like yugioh and move on
My theory is that the Fiendsmith engine saved the format because most decks don't have that much trouble going first but when 2nd its significantly harder for Snake-Eyes to stop you from playing the game. Any deck that could play through 3 or more hand traps easily can now play through 5+ hand traps. I think its a result of pure hand trap builds not being a viable strategy anymore and if they ban Beatrice and Apallousa Snake-Eyes will be in deep pain. We've seen stuff like this with Spright with the Nimble package in the past where having Nimble Beaver and Spright Blue will allow you to play through 2 hand traps because of Spright Sprind and Nimble Blowfish. The biggest consequence of the Fiendsmith engine is it enables Beatrice which can turn skip.
Old comment i know, BUT RDA has been doing pretty well post support all things considered, its not the strongest deck by far but its doing nicely for a rogue deck.
Yugioh players can't make it through the text on a card, how are they supposed to watch and comprehend a 60 second video as opposed to jump to conclusions based on titles/thumbnails?
Something people aren't thinking about is almost every deck so long as the person piloting can afford the Fiendsmith engine can use it. It could be that not everyone got it or that its not a tier 0 format because almost every deck can use it. Any deck that uses and Necroquip instantly has the ability to play through 2 additional hand traps. Mainly Ash Blossom and Nibiru and if you get do Beatrice shenanigans you get to skip your opponents turn.
MTG doesn't seem to have the same rigidity of combos as Yugioh due to their lack of archetypes. I understand tribes and tribal synergy, but the specificity of those synergies is not as minute as a lot of Yu-Gi-Oh cards. Its a broader range of cards that all synergize with each other thereby creating a more diverse host of decks that can achieve top cut. Perhaps this is all wrong as I only dabbled in MTG, but they are 2 different games with wildly different strategies and core mechanics.
@@Thelitletrainthtcud You summed it up pretty well, but it also has to do with balancing in general. In modern (An eternal format like yugioh that uses all but cards released in the first few years of the game) people are currently loosing their minds over a deck called Nadu which is estimated to be 15% of the overall meta and recently took half of the top 8 slots.
First mistake is taking anything the average yugioh player has to say seriously. These are the people that post comments on Reddit talking about how modern DM decks are a good place to start yugioh and how pendulum decks are overpowered in 2024. Who cares what they think about what is or isn’t a tier 1 format. These people have never seen the inside of a ycs, most of them have never been to a local.
MBT titles his video saying he thinks the format is maybe okay, then talks about why it isn't tier 0, then complains when everyone in the comment section says the format isn't okay as if they're debating that it's not tier 0. Bro really moved the goalposts this time.
personally I would say the actual contents of the video supersede the video's title, especially since alot of youtubers, not just yugitubers, title their videos in ways that get the most clicks, so it sort of makes the title pointless beyond getting you to click on the video, so when talking about said video, you should really only be talking about what said creator is actually saying and just ignore the title
@@BigBuckies Then you can't criticise people for commenting as if the title is relevant. If you make a disingenuous title then suffer the consequences.
I just feel like calling the engine or fiendsmith snake eye deck not “that strong” this early seems like a bad idea. First week of release the pros were frantic to test but they didn’t know goddess was gonna be out until like a week or two out from the event? EU and SA players both admitted whatever they saw at the NAWCQ was going to determine the way they’d formulate their own fiendsmith deck so that also just feels like deck building that hasn’t really been put through enough simulations to come up with something really powerful. I just say give it time and it’ll hit a level MBT would consider T0.
@@mateusrp1994 I don’t remember it being a month but yeah I could be wrong and just need to look it up. Also yeah the exclusives really just made everything go nuts.
If youre expecting 80% representation and it gets 50%, then it has underperformed by the expectations you had. As it stands, all MBT had was the data that it was 50%. If after say a month of tournaments, maybe a few more ycs' and we get it to rise to say the 70% mark, then hed probably say that on people obtaining the cards, it is now a tier 0 format. Because tier 0 as he said has nothing to do with the health of the game, or the reasons why people play the decks, just the black and white number showing the number of people who played it. It might be that it never hits "t0" because people are afraid of banlist hits and dont want to invest in such an engine for example
The real problem is just people with no reading comprehension skills thinking "Tier 0" means "Format I don't like" instead of it being a term with a meaning attached to it lol
I just don't like having to deal with the counter cards for whatever strong deck is in the Meta, I'm not playing the top deck, why should O have to deal with a flood of decks built to play against a deck I'm not playing. I like shifter, but I don't want to have to play against it just because my Opp is trying to beat Fiendsmith, that's a really shitty thing players that choose to play their pet decks or overall weaker, not meta decks.
Why did bro take these comments so badly? The most liked comments actually agree anyway! it’s just some randoms who don’t like the take. Honestly a bad look.
The comment at the very end of this conversation was one id like to address. "We have a format where 20 decks clear and its this bad". I have to ask the question, why. No really why is it we can only have formats where its 3 decks and the top % of players are in heaven because they get a rock paper scissors gameplay loop, a teir zero where pro players love everything about a mirror, or a 20 deck format that everyone hates. Is it just that impossible to have a diverse format that allows for more players, more strategies, has budget options so not everyone has to take out a down payment on a car for their cardboard and gives people some variety? Christ i know its insane but just imagine for half a second if people got to play decks that were not only good but that they had FUN playing. Metagaming is not bad in higher comps, but design space should accomodate variety too, its super feel bad to tune into a major even and know youre in for the same 3 decks in almost every feature and i cannot even imagine playing them in 9 rounds of the swiss from hell.
Don't get it twisted, the title of this video was inflammatory "this terrible format is ok actually" and people are just mad because top level play in this format is horrible. People who are mad will lash out at anyone, not saying it's justified, just what happened.
magic players have this like weird superiority complex when it comes to their card game vs our card game. They treat getting yugioh players to play magic, like its converting religions, which is funny, if it wasn't reiterated every other tenth of a second.
"I have more handtraps than you have playable cards in hand" is, in fact, a non-game. If my cards don't resolve, I'm not playing the game, that's just the truth.
Yeah that's the one thing here i disagree with. If none of my starters resolve, i end on no interaction and have lost the game by turn 2/3, hard to feel like I actually "played" the game
Yeah idk the mirror really feels awful because if you are on breakers you will simply lose too hard when you go first especially to opponents breakers so it kinda forces the deck into hand traps and it really can’t beat handtraps. Similarly if you do play breakers you might just wie into an ftk. One of the main issues is Theres just no way in engine to beat ip + Apollo which I think does absolutely promote a ton of non-games. Even if you do go full breaker you need to draw specifically like dark ruler evenly matched and even if you do they still keep flamberge have a good amount of followup and promethean pop alongside whatever handtraps they have. The worst part of everything is simply how long the deck takes while being so insanely good in time. If they chose to go first with 10 minutes or less on the clock you simply know they will grind out those minutes and set-up a lacrimosa burn under Apollo which simply leads to again a ton of very frustrating non-games.
I’m convinced it’s not a tier 0 format because of two reasons. Price and requirement level to perform well a lot of people on snake eye fiendsmith aren’t piloting the deck optimally and the decks fairly complicated so they end up making mistakes where as you don’t have to learn to interact optimally with a lot of the other decks as they basically don’t play yugioh. Tenpai and the two puppet decks both don’t actually play the game almost at all.
I like how spooky dog wood was used once and everyone starts hating on the card because of times even tho honestly the last match at nat was not a deciding factor here’s why tenpai player had the tools to ok him on the crack back he just needed to live a turn
I will never understand when content creators say "why am I getting X comment when 4 days ago I was getting Y" MBT has near 187K subs, is it that hard to understand the people saying he's never happy and complains all the time are different people to the ones saying he's a Konami shill?
Idg how that's a hot take. OCG has big consistency hits and fiendsmith smooths that out more. Like sure you can play through more handtraps but why would you take the deck and ED space when the original build is more flexible.
Because you end up with more starters and your normal combo lines are better. Even just playing the 1 fs greatly improves combo lines from single poplar or single ash. If Moon wasn’t in the format, ir wouldn’t make much sense though.
It just gives you effectively 3 extra bodies off the sequence, the extra equip to send and that means your play of 2 starters through 1 ht is roughly the equivalent of 2 starters vs 0 ht before (a bit of a sidegrade because dies irae is better than number 38 in stopping evenly but worse in that it can’t protect appo on its own). You don’t actually get much extra ceiling and you lose so many tech spots which you used ro beat other decks but you are a LOT more consistent. Fiendsmith effect to send is also a pretty good removal effect and the deck is also just more fun now that you’re not always going for zealantis raging phoenix
Uh i’ll add one more thing actually.. if you play necroquip, you get the ability to play through imperm on diabellstar with any normal summon, including a ht, forcing a second ht out and can continue playing on many boards by using a bystial.
Hot take but I wish that snake-eye fiendsmith was tier 0 just so that some of these non interactive pseudo ftk decks that populate top cut now would be pushed back.
@@hatefulgaming1800will they? Puppet Locks and Calamity Locks are basically FTKs and they're not yet banned in the TCG. You could say Master Duel banned them but Master Duel's banlist usually matches the OCG, not the TCG
Mbt truly be like: "Hmmmm, i'll title the video the terrible new format might be ok. Wait a second, why are so many people acting like I'm making light of how god awful this format is?"
Just unban everything. Make a new master rule stating you get 10 to 15 none theme card slots between main and extra. It'll let combo decks still do stuff, but the generic bs would end.
Doesn't MTG call a format tier 0 at like 30%? Hogaak did manage to get the 60+% eventually, but like I think they considered it tier 0 before that, and would have even if it got banned before reading the 60% number. Also, fiendsmith is certainly not a trivial engine. Considering the tangential parts the engine is like half of the extra, which is obviously non trivial. Even just going by the number of cards, it's as big of a commitment as minimalist eldlich engines in the pure eldlich deck. And it's so accessible that you wind up accessing or attempting to access the fiendsmith cards more often than not in the decks that play them. I wouldn't say fiendsmith is tier 0, because it's best play ultimately goes into the snake-eye engine rather than like, searching majesty's fiend, but it's not altogether unreasonable to suggest as such either.
Guys just look at his prior takes ofc mbt is right. - tenpai is bad as hell - runick is one of the most terrible archetypes ever conceived - master duel is plagued by zoodiacs (every other game you play you get zoo'd to oblivion) - dpe didn't replace dragoon It's all there just know where to look foreheads.
the tenpai take is honestly fair, runick is infact a terribly designed archetype, literally no idea what master duel is doing now, but the funniest point is he said the oppisite :clueless:
I think the main reason for the hate is everyone playing this format feels like they've been hit by a bus and MBT is out here saying "Yeah but you weren't hit by a plane!"
i think part of the problem is the way the short was framed with the words "might be ok" implies that its not that bad and when you consider the fact weve been in snake-eye for god knows how long people are ultimately probably just tired of the format as a whole and tired of konami softballing snake-eye also you defended tear format so that also plays into this as it gives the impression you just defend the meta decks
Gotta say, expecting people to take a fully understood and nuanced take from a SHORT is like expecting a Tweet to not be leaving out some parts of any conversation. Its a damn short, not a video essay
I don't think the format is that bad I think games are fun but I understand why people are frustrated it seems like there is only 1 deck to play even though there is a handful
The reason why I consider it tier zero is because I personally put more stock in how the decks that top perform rather than what percentage of decks top. I know I’m wrong in most senses it’s just why I think of it that way.
Isnt this almost purely a semantic argument? Maybe it isnt a tier 0 format by definition, but why make that distinction unless you are trying to defend the format? Like i think this format isnt very fun and is prohibitively expensive, and that a lot of the cards released recently are so explosively powerful with no downside that it makes the game less strategically interesting in a way that i think is bad. If you dont think that is true, then say it. If you agree, then what is the point of this video? Why can you ask me to engage with your hot take if you are unwilling to try to defend it?
The core distinction here is "snake eyes underperformed" and "the format is healthy" are not equal statements, its not a semantic argument since the discussion is supposed to be around the idea of "hey why didnt snake eyes do as well as we thought it would do?" Not the idea "is this format healthy or not" I guess most peoples hang up is that alot of people think "snake eyes is not prefoming as well as we thought it would" implies "snake eyes is causing less problems" which is not nessarly true
Because it’s indicative that Snake Eyes isn’t as powerful as we thought relative to the other decks. Which is surprising. The question then is why. Which, for people watching Yugioh content, is probably an interesting question. Saying, “format bad” isn’t instructive because it doesn’t actually dissect what changes could be made to fix it. As MBT says at the end of the clip, had they preemptively massacred Snake Eyes, the format would have been more intolerable. Saying this is tier zero absolves the other decks in the format of their own contributions to the problem. That’s the point of this clip and it’s what MBT says over and over again. He doesn’t like the format, but there’s no definition that makes it tier zero. That’s a coherent take.
@@inho5737 I think my issue is that this feels more like an avoidance than a distinction. Because I think it should be pretty obvious to anyone actually trying to play this format that it is unhealthy, and in the video he acknowledges this. It comes across as disingenuous to me because when he posts a video with the subject "fiendsmith was overhyped, the meta is diverse, we were wrong" that might all be technically true, but he also is not an idiot, and he knows that someone trying to make the argument that the format is healthy would start the same way. It just feels like a way for him to farm engagement by starting the sentence but not finishing it, waiting for people to finish it for him in their head and then angrily reply. And then he gets to excitedly tell them that they are wrong actually because he "was talking about the format diversity but he never said anything about health" it feels like he isn't actually interested in a discussion at all he just wants to be right.
@MRawesome202 the real crime here is this was put on a youtube short, this topic was gonna do this as a youtube short no matter if he made it to farm interaction or not
this guy's view on decks like tenpai and ritual beast comes off as very dismissive imo. while tenpai is a pretty easy deck to pick up and play, it's definitely not just "shifter ftk." also the way he talked about ritual beast was also very dismissive, to call one of the most complicated decks in the game's history "protos ftk, shifter ztk" seems very dismissive. i think tenpai and ritual beasts both have a lot more going for them
I do agree with MBT that understanding why things are the way they are and not just lamenting the circumstances is important. That said I think the point people are trying to make is that 50% of the format being one deck is still tier 0 territory. Yeah Magic has the same problem right now in their Modern format but that's just one of many formats you can play and it's largely regarded as an anomaly that will be banned soon. The fact that Fiendsmith Snake Eye isn't so oppressive that it's actually the only deck just feels like the silver lining on a plate of shit. It's still half of all decks.
shoutouts to that one guy with the green name in chat just fighting for his life whining about every single thing they say and getting completely ignored by everyone LOL
99% of yugioh content consumers are actual monkeys who just want to see their t5 pet deck from 10 years ago competing with modern strategies. Unfortunately this completely plays into konami's strategy of making good deck, banning good deck to unplayability, release new good deck.
I think it was more a matter of the clickbait title. Sure it might not be a tier 0 format, but the format is still terrible and definitely not fine. Having a 50% representation in top cut is still extremely dominant, and the other decks in the format are just as uninteractive. Tenpai and Gimmick Puppet makes their monsters towers so they don't have to worry about their ftk/otk being interrupted (which is not ok), Yubel can take advantage of the sackiest removal spell in the game (Super Poly), Ritual Beast is carried by Shifter, and stun does what it always does and says "you are trapped in here with me." The only fair deck that saw somewhat success is Momento, and that deck's problem is that it is too fair. Seeing someone call the format "fine" is simply wrong.
I didn’t play back when toss was the format but I feel like we’re almost on the cusp of toss 2.0. Yubel/SE/Tenpai are the best decks in the room and it’s really a toss up between the 3 as to who wins
It’s not so much tier 0 type bad but it’s annoying and infuriating to play against. Is it as bad as tier 0? No. Is it fun? Also no. It’s a mid ground of it’s not tier 0 but fuck it’s annoying
Me who remembers his take on Zoodiac getting unbanned. In all seriousness, when almost half the decks in the room are snake eyes and the other half have to maindeck answers to it, is it not a deck that warps the format/a tier 0 format?
So this is just nearly 30 minutes of MBT defending. 50% is crazy and yes in magic 90% of the time wizards would start banning peices or try to weaken it across formats. Trying to point at ONE format currently in magic being effected by 1 card and say "see magic bad too" is laughable when other formats are still more healthy than yugiohs ONLY format. And the way wizards handled this situation is NOT common (which is why their is a outrage not normally seen in magic) they usually try something when a deck gets over 50. Unlike Yugioh that purposly uses ban lists to just cycle sets for sales.
Yeah the Magic take is wild. The last time we had a Nadu situation was Hogaak, five years ago. But then you look at how WotC communicates and makes it clear what play patterns they acknowledge players don't actually want to play against and you realize they're lapping Konami on pretty much every front. Their recent post about how they don't like Nadu because it's a non-deterministic combo that filibusters games without actually winning in EDH was really nice to see.
MBT simply critiqued the format. He didn’t criticize or support it per se, but he gave us a very brief and simple analysis of the format and how the deck doesn’t line up with predictions people had for it. He didn’t say the deck was bad or insane, just that it didn’t live up to the exact hype the deck was predicted to have. That said, I THINK the deck is crazy and I think some people are indeed just tired of the format coming off of months of snake eye. Reminds me of tear format where a new deck does something quite unique and has been boosted exponentially by indirect support (ishizu vs fiendsmith). And despite the engine upgrades, people are tired of seeing the same main deck part over and over. We went through fire king, and then pure, and now we’re onto fiendsmith hybrids of it. People just want to have the conversation about not seeing Snake Eye anymore. I’m sure they’re glad to see fiendsmith yubel. But they’re tired of “normal Ash” and “special poplar” and “link into promethean”
The only thing I'm here to hate on is your use of light mode
and right you are for it
I just noticed
100%
still convinced 90% of yugioh players dont know how to actually play yugioh
As someone who is likely in that 90%, could you enlighten us? What is "actually" playing yugioh? I don't mean to be rude, but I've heard this before in general or specifically about me and I see an opportunity to actually get a response on it.
i think its 90% of viewers dont play yugioh lol. I havent touched yugioh since like 2017 personally, but consume so much yugituber content (thanks progplayoffs) because theyre entertaining. But it very easy for people on the outside to just talk shit as they do on the internet.
@@liviousgameplay1755 i would also consider myself to be in the 90% but still: there is a high difference in playing yugioh and PLAYING Yugioh. You can see it in this example that people dont listen to mbt and they dont understand what hes saying. Hes saying that they expected fiendsmith to be at 70-80% playrate ie. Tier 0 but its "only" at 50% which is better than anyone thought. And he also brings up that multiple people argue that bc there are 6 fiendsmith cards in every deck it IS a tier 0 format which is not true. As he explains the engine has different uses in every deck yubel/fiend is not the same as snakeeye/fiend. Which should be clear as day. Another example is just overall gameplay understanding: a lot of people dont know what an inherent summon is or a lot of rulings or the different parts of the battlephase which are actually insanely important sometimes. My point is that people like Jesse cotton f.e. have insanely better game understanding than 90% of the playerbase which either play it casually or online only. But those are mostly the people that complain about these things bc they have no understanding of yugioh. Its the same as tearelement format a few years ago and this is my opinion (and MBTs) that it was still the most fun format in ages bc it was flexable and skillbased bc u needed to know how to play yugioh in the mirror match. Ofc that doesnt mean the format was great or healthy but it was fun and skillbased even if it was tier 0.
If you want another opinion on that topic ask other professionals that have WCS tops and ask them if they thought the format was as bad as they thought. Im sure a lot of them will say that gimmick puppet was worse :D
(Also sorry for the huge block i kinda yapped longer than i wanted to)
@@soulflame99 yes exactly. Most of those viewers dont play yugioh professionaly and just dont like the format and so instantly become immune to any kind of arguments. Ofc it is an unhealthy format but thats not what MBT said at all. Shows again whats wrong with most people nowadays: as soon as you say something against their agenda they start screaming and leaving the diskussion...
Not only they don't know how to play the game, they also don't know how a corporation such as Konami operates, they are not going to ban cards that they just released.
I would say the title "yugiohs terrible new format... Is ok?" Is contributing a lot to the bad responses, cuz by the title this implies it's an ok format, perhaps a format that you personally are ok with. So I think that's one of the reasons why so many people are mistakenly reading this as a defense.
And I’d say those people have skill issues
I mean
Yugioh players can’t read, how would they have reading comprehension
As if Fiendsmith Snake Eyes is any better a format than Snake Eyes. Essentially. Neither are “okay”
One was tier zero
We're still in Snake-Eye format debatably, even after the last banlist. SE Fire King still exists.
I HOPE Yubel still overtakes Snake-Eye after ROTA (could maybe produce some new anti-meta picks), because otherwise we'll be stuck with the same decks that people were complaining about. Like, this wasn't just about Snake Eye. Tenpai got a lot of flack too, as did Gimmick Puppet recently.
And of course D Shifter is still gatekeeping the format. Maybe people would be happy if they could play decks with a lot of GY gas like Tear or GP PUNK or what have you. If you banned OR EVEN JUST LIMITED that 1 card, suddenly a lot of decks can play the game again and the format would resolve itself. This game is easily at its best when I can just outplay my opponent using the tools inherent to my deck and not have to rely on opening a non-engine out, and decks like Tear or GP PUNK can do that when they aren't gatekept out of the meta.
Like, lets be honest: Shifter's only legal right now to push new product. Konami hardly even TRIES anymore to give the impression that the hits on the list are done for the sake of balancing. At least it was a healthy mix of both balancing and pushing product during the latter half of 2023. Overall its just a frustrating business model, and people are getting fed up.
I made a joke that because Tenpai won they will kill Tenpai on the ban list and not touch Snake Eyes
Someone honest to God responded to me saying “Too bad stupid Snake Eyes player, your deck will be murdered and cry about it”
I have never played a Snake Eyes deck 😂
The people who hate the deck are infinitely worse than the people who like the deck.
@@colossaldonut5190 you know for a fact that guy just plays floodgates and refuses to talk to his opponents
Yugioh players are genuinely some of the most spiteful dumbasses in online gaming discourse. I swear the game's design fosters this kind of attitude where it's not enough to be successful, you have to actively hate everyone else and pray to Konami that everyone around them suffers. There's also the people who have the cardboard equivalent of a Mercedes parked in front of a crack house who clearly can't afford the new $1000 deck they lose with at locals while acting like anyone who wants to enjoy a hobby in a fiscally responsible way must be poor.
In master duel when it came out, I kept turning the snake eyes engine into CraftingPoints because the cards looked boring and weak at the time, then when I saw the deck being played I was confused as to wtf was going on. Tbh you just need to take time to understand what it does for it to not be so scary. HOWEVER, KASHTIRA IS THE MOST DIFFICULT THING I HAVE EVER GONE SECOND AGAINST!!!
@@jacquezcaples7262really? Just out the arise heart and it isn't that bad after that. I found snake eyes a lot harder to deal with
I like when Yugioh Dad gets angry at the chat, it reminds me of my childhood
are you... ok?
Legitimately when I saw that short, my thoughts were exactly as the one comment says... the reason why it's not Tier 0 is most likely the price tag attached to Fiendsmith then moved on. The intent of the short to say that it's not as represented as expected was clear to me, not sure where the rest got lost at.
No it's not, at all. The price has fuck all to do with the performance
MINOR SPELLING MISTAKE
I love Peeps coming on when MBT is goin' off and saying "You are right, and they are wrong, but here's where they are coming from." I think it's just the way he thinks when I see him show up on whatever channel (or the podcast) and I appreciate him for it.
"75% of the decks playing BLUE"
Is sort of a mischaracterization. It's closer to "all playing sheoldred the apocalypse" or The One Ring. Fucking stupid card.
It's more like if every deck in Modern was playing a Nadu/Shuko/Nantuko value engine in their pile of other stuff. I mean it's only 12 cards out of 60! Come on!
@geek593
Eh it's not just those. It's also all the dorks to accelerate it out. Also Magic players aren't pretending this is okay. We all know it's going to eat a ban because this is horrible.
@@Justiceinall That's my point. MBT is claiming Fiendsmith isn't an integral part of the decks it's currently being played in and pretending it's okay.
@@geek593it's not, literally mixing Snake Eyes and Fiendsmith made the deck perform worse
Regarding whether or not something is considered tier 0, it makes sense that people originating from MTG have a different understanding of it.
As an example, Hogaak was widely regarded to be tier 0 during the time known as "Hogaak Summer". The Mythic Championship IV tournamet was the peak of this, with over 20% of players bringing Hogaak (the last time that amount occurred was eldrazi winter). The result of this tournament? 1 hogaak got top 8.
It was defined as tier 0 due to how much it warped the metagame. Every deck that came to the tournament had over 10% of their main deck dedicated to countering it.
Remember when Jace the Mind Sculptor had to be _banned_ because upwards of 70% or every deck was running him and he was in *every single top 8 deck* at some events?
New lighting and setup is nice honestly
To maybe talk about the point where Joseph says “I can’t pinpoint what’s unhealthy about it”.
In my opinion it’s two things: It’s that Snake Eye either does or it doesn’t. You either hand trap them and they set up nothing or, you hand trap them and they still end up at full combo, or you board break and play through their full combo and your opponent can just search a floodgate with Beatrice. Hand traps are at their best when they lower the ceiling of what a deck is doing rather than either full stopping a deck or being negligible.
The other part is that there are silver bullets to the Snake Eye strategy and they are unfortunately all extremely unfun. Stun, FTK, and Shifter decks are the next most viable strategies and they create a lot of non games.
If you look back at Unchained format, Unchained was well equipped to deal with both Shifter and Stun while also being a midrange deck that set up a couple beatable pieces of interaction and certain hand traps guaranteed you to be able to lower the ceiling. Fast forward a few months, and most people look at that format pretty fondly because of that.
I wouldn’t call it a tier-0 format, in technicality, but I would call it an exclusionary format. You either play snake-eyes, or you play a deck that has very specific ways to address exactly snake-eyes. Everything else dies. And I would argue that a deck that has a way to warp the meta that strongly is tier-0, even if it didn’t take top-cuts the way tearlaments did. Every deck is now required to be half hand traps or keep the opponent from playing entirely like burn or stun.
i would think it's similar to adventure dpe right? in terms of the concept that, people either played something better than it (presumably) or everyone was forced onto it to have a measurable impact on average in a match.
fiendsmith isn't unbeatable, it just raises the average power level of anything that can use it substantially to the point where if you aren't running it, you're either on some degenerate or adjacent deck that can compete/counter it.
in turn the variety of what's playable is narrowed in a way that isn't enjoyable for most people. i'm discounting the fact that a lot of ppl can't even afford fiendsmith even if they wanted to play for the sake of explanation. the cost is another world of bullshit
i would like to contribute to this by saying that MBT had ber similar opinions about kashtira way back when. the deck overall wasn't as powerful as people claimed it to me. but Kashtira was still powerful enough to the point where every deck had to at least gear there deck for kashtira if they wanted to top. the difference was that the amount of options you had back then versus now were a lot more varied and enjoyable.
@@jeremiahriley663 it's varied now...tf are you talking about
I'm glad it's mentioned, but Snake-Eyes Fiendsmith doesn't seem that relatively toxic, at least compared to other decks.
It's a combo deck with a little *too* much gas.
The most degenerate thing you really see out of them is something like Skill Drain or Blue Tears on occasion. Most times it's just the sheer amount of consistency, recursion, and interactions it gets for how little engine it needs.
Is it too strong? Yes. Does it need hits? Yeah. Is it as toxic as RB with Shifter/Protos, Gimmick FTK, or Tenpei opening like a Numeron player in MD? No.
Those decks are doing said thing because of the power level of the deck you claim doesn’t seem relatively toxic. Nobody wants to play 20 handtraps just to maybe stop snake eyes fiendsmith when I could just play blowout cards instead. Its a symptom of the format we are in because of said deck
@@MaliEndzthat's such a fallacy, people have always played FTKs, floodgates or anything, no matter what the dominant decks were, and sometimes it made these decks specifically dominant. Branded is not puppet locking because of fiendsmith. Shifter decks have existed for ages. People have been FTKing for more than 20 years. Protos was a part of Swordsoul's endboard when the deck was dominant. Stop lying to yourself by pretending snake-eye, fiendsmith or whatever you can find is the reason the other decks in the room are toxic.
@@drianna75 Its irrelevant that they used to do it before because now players are now complaining about these same decks resorting to this floodgate win cons when its now the most efficient way of dealing with the top deck that plays through 5 interruptions with zero issues. Do you really think decks like branded, RB. mimighoul, exodia, flo would want to resort to said win cons? or is it the most viable way of playing these decks considering how these poorly designed archetypes come out and the only way to actually maybe get a win is to shifter and protos lock??
@@MaliEndz it's exactly what I said earlier: yes the people running these decks would resort to said wincons, because that's what they've been doing for the entire game's existence whenever they've had the occasion to, saying it's irrelevant to look at past formats makes no sense, like of course it gives you a tendancy of how players behave in a competitive setting: they play their deck to win, regardless of how miserable it feels. If you seriously believe that branded players will drop puppet the moment snake-eye gets hit, you're mad coping: it is the best way to build this deck regardless of what is dominant because stopping your opponent from playing the game is optimal, and thus this will be the way this deck will be played at high level.
@@drianna75 theres literally ZERO incentive now to not play these win cons when the best two decks eat interruptions as if nothing happened therefore now the most optimal way of dealing with it is to play floodgates and turn skips
I went to my local card store and asked the owner if he thinks we are in a tier 0 format. His exact words were "this isn't tier 0. Tearlaments was tier 0. This is a toxic tier 1 format."
"No matter the definition this is not a Tier 0 format"
You forgot the one I made the fuck up to complain online
Vibes based arguments are my favorite. It just "feels" like it, you know??? YOU KNOW.
I dont think the argument that snake eyes fiendsmith “gets to play yugioh” is real when it is no different than activate shifter, protos, gimmick puppet lock with extra steps. Deck plays through virtually everything and sets up an ftk board itself which would be no different than if I were to resolve protos
Id give it time. After PHNI and LEDE, im pretty sure pure Snake-Eye became only progressively more dominant over the months
In my opinion, this is a tier zero format but not in the way of previous formats where one deck is clearly dominant.
We have a sub engine that is incredibly dominant that also is kept out of player's hands by product release timing and rarity distribution.
I think it would honestly be beneficial to coin a new term for formats like this with just an engine that is very dominant/for when product is done in a way that makes it incredibly hard to obtain cards resulting is less play than usual. It feels to me as if with the current direction the game is headed, we're gonna get to a point where in some formats, there will be a deck/archetype isn't tier zero by traditional sense, but could be considered tier zero due to other factors.
DPE + Adventure was a format
I think my issue with arguing that it's not a Tier 0 format is that currently (by own MBT's own accounting othe NAWCQ) that the cards had only recently come out and there were issues with acquiring them in time. I have heard frequent talks about how getting cards in the EU can also be problematic, so I imagine the same could be said even there a couple weeks after the release. And another issue is that, we also kinda just had this same "Maybe the format is ok?" moment with Tenpai not too long ago. People were playing it and thought it was fine during the initial release, but then after the dust settled and people got used to the meta it turned out no it was still a Tier 0 Snake-Eyes format.
I think it's just too early to tell and when we still have Snake-Eyes making up half the meta (at least if the NAWCQ tops are any indicator) then the signs are currently pointing to the fact that it may be true.
I remember a great video where it explains the weakness and how to interact the fiendsmith engine in every top deck. And the comment section where just complains about the decks and the format or just quitting the game til a banlist is out. That speaks by itself the quality of our playerbase
It’s weird hearing people saying that because really how many of those people are actually doing competition play.
@@hatefulgaming1800i guarantee at least 30% of them only play master duel
As someone who plays both yugioh and mtg semi competitively that mtg is WILD! Like my brother in christ every cedh deck runs the same 15-30 cards as every other deck in its color. Black has a suite of 4 tutors and 3 rituals. Blue has 14 counter spells and 5 draw engines. Red has wheels and rituals. Green has the same 5 interaction pieces and let's not forgets the same 10 artifacts in 90% of the decks I fucken counted! Just say you don't like yugioh and move on
Pretty weird title for an apology video
the abrupt ending after “because it gets to play yugioh” was perfect
My theory is that the Fiendsmith engine saved the format because most decks don't have that much trouble going first but when 2nd its significantly harder for Snake-Eyes to stop you from playing the game. Any deck that could play through 3 or more hand traps easily can now play through 5+ hand traps. I think its a result of pure hand trap builds not being a viable strategy anymore and if they ban Beatrice and Apallousa Snake-Eyes will be in deep pain. We've seen stuff like this with Spright with the Nimble package in the past where having Nimble Beaver and Spright Blue will allow you to play through 2 hand traps because of Spright Sprind and Nimble Blowfish. The biggest consequence of the Fiendsmith engine is it enables Beatrice which can turn skip.
I dont even play paper anymore... its way too expensive. I have a RDA deck but i doubt itll take any wins in a local or regional level
Old comment i know, BUT RDA has been doing pretty well post support all things considered, its not the strongest deck by far but its doing nicely for a rogue deck.
Yugioh players can't make it through the text on a card, how are they supposed to watch and comprehend a 60 second video as opposed to jump to conclusions based on titles/thumbnails?
You're*
I'm*
Something people aren't thinking about is almost every deck so long as the person piloting can afford the Fiendsmith engine can use it. It could be that not everyone got it or that its not a tier 0 format because almost every deck can use it. Any deck that uses and Necroquip instantly has the ability to play through 2 additional hand traps. Mainly Ash Blossom and Nibiru and if you get do Beatrice shenanigans you get to skip your opponents turn.
Crazy how so many comments down here keep proving him right
This honestly is the Tear thing all over again
My guy in magic if your deck is more than 10% of the metagame in an eternal format we are screaming. Deck is half the metagame, that's insane.
MTG doesn't seem to have the same rigidity of combos as Yugioh due to their lack of archetypes. I understand tribes and tribal synergy, but the specificity of those synergies is not as minute as a lot of Yu-Gi-Oh cards. Its a broader range of cards that all synergize with each other thereby creating a more diverse host of decks that can achieve top cut. Perhaps this is all wrong as I only dabbled in MTG, but they are 2 different games with wildly different strategies and core mechanics.
@@Thelitletrainthtcud You summed it up pretty well, but it also has to do with balancing in general. In modern (An eternal format like yugioh that uses all but cards released in the first few years of the game) people are currently loosing their minds over a deck called Nadu which is estimated to be 15% of the overall meta and recently took half of the top 8 slots.
@@xelic1996Nadu had roughly the same representation in top cut as Snake Eye Fiendsmith did in the graphs MBT used (31/64 at the PT)
@@moncala7787 People are screaming in MTG to ban the bird, wizards just refuses to do it tbf
First mistake is taking anything the average yugioh player has to say seriously. These are the people that post comments on Reddit talking about how modern DM decks are a good place to start yugioh and how pendulum decks are overpowered in 2024.
Who cares what they think about what is or isn’t a tier 1 format. These people have never seen the inside of a ycs, most of them have never been to a local.
MBT titles his video saying he thinks the format is maybe okay, then talks about why it isn't tier 0, then complains when everyone in the comment section says the format isn't okay as if they're debating that it's not tier 0.
Bro really moved the goalposts this time.
This is pretty much what half of his "my chat is wrong and I am right" arguments about yugioh amount to lol
personally I would say the actual contents of the video supersede the video's title, especially since alot of youtubers, not just yugitubers, title their videos in ways that get the most clicks, so it sort of makes the title pointless beyond getting you to click on the video, so when talking about said video, you should really only be talking about what said creator is actually saying and just ignore the title
@@BigBuckies Then you can't criticise people for commenting as if the title is relevant. If you make a disingenuous title then suffer the consequences.
I just feel like calling the engine or fiendsmith snake eye deck not “that strong” this early seems like a bad idea. First week of release the pros were frantic to test but they didn’t know goddess was gonna be out until like a week or two out from the event? EU and SA players both admitted whatever they saw at the NAWCQ was going to determine the way they’d formulate their own fiendsmith deck so that also just feels like deck building that hasn’t really been put through enough simulations to come up with something really powerful. I just say give it time and it’ll hit a level MBT would consider T0.
Moon of the Closed Sky was announced to be in INFO about a month before release, but the 2 new TCG exclusives fucked everything up.
@@mateusrp1994 I don’t remember it being a month but yeah I could be wrong and just need to look it up. Also yeah the exclusives really just made everything go nuts.
If youre expecting 80% representation and it gets 50%, then it has underperformed by the expectations you had.
As it stands, all MBT had was the data that it was 50%. If after say a month of tournaments, maybe a few more ycs' and we get it to rise to say the 70% mark, then hed probably say that on people obtaining the cards, it is now a tier 0 format. Because tier 0 as he said has nothing to do with the health of the game, or the reasons why people play the decks, just the black and white number showing the number of people who played it.
It might be that it never hits "t0" because people are afraid of banlist hits and dont want to invest in such an engine for example
The real problem is just people with no reading comprehension skills thinking "Tier 0" means "Format I don't like" instead of it being a term with a meaning attached to it lol
MBT: Unhinged and Uncut
I love hearing Joseph read modern day vernacular in a deadpan voice.
I just don't like having to deal with the counter cards for whatever strong deck is in the Meta, I'm not playing the top deck, why should O have to deal with a flood of decks built to play against a deck I'm not playing. I like shifter, but I don't want to have to play against it just because my Opp is trying to beat Fiendsmith, that's a really shitty thing players that choose to play their pet decks or overall weaker, not meta decks.
Why did bro take these comments so badly? The most liked comments actually agree anyway! it’s just some randoms who don’t like the take. Honestly a bad look.
Mic drop at the end 👌
This video is almost 30 minutes of yapping just to say the only valid takes are my takes (even when they’re bad)
The comment at the very end of this conversation was one id like to address. "We have a format where 20 decks clear and its this bad". I have to ask the question, why. No really why is it we can only have formats where its 3 decks and the top % of players are in heaven because they get a rock paper scissors gameplay loop, a teir zero where pro players love everything about a mirror, or a 20 deck format that everyone hates. Is it just that impossible to have a diverse format that allows for more players, more strategies, has budget options so not everyone has to take out a down payment on a car for their cardboard and gives people some variety? Christ i know its insane but just imagine for half a second if people got to play decks that were not only good but that they had FUN playing. Metagaming is not bad in higher comps, but design space should accomodate variety too, its super feel bad to tune into a major even and know youre in for the same 3 decks in almost every feature and i cannot even imagine playing them in 9 rounds of the swiss from hell.
Don't get it twisted, the title of this video was inflammatory "this terrible format is ok actually" and people are just mad because top level play in this format is horrible.
People who are mad will lash out at anyone, not saying it's justified, just what happened.
8:08 I laughed so hard at this for some reason
magic players have this like weird superiority complex when it comes to their card game vs our card game. They treat getting yugioh players to play magic, like its converting religions, which is funny, if it wasn't reiterated every other tenth of a second.
"I have more handtraps than you have playable cards in hand" is, in fact, a non-game. If my cards don't resolve, I'm not playing the game, that's just the truth.
Yeah that's the one thing here i disagree with. If none of my starters resolve, i end on no interaction and have lost the game by turn 2/3, hard to feel like I actually "played" the game
Yeah idk the mirror really feels awful because if you are on breakers you will simply lose too hard when you go first especially to opponents breakers so it kinda forces the deck into hand traps and it really can’t beat handtraps. Similarly if you do play breakers you might just wie into an ftk. One of the main issues is Theres just no way in engine to beat ip + Apollo which I think does absolutely promote a ton of non-games. Even if you do go full breaker you need to draw specifically like dark ruler evenly matched and even if you do they still keep flamberge have a good amount of followup and promethean pop alongside whatever handtraps they have. The worst part of everything is simply how long the deck takes while being so insanely good in time. If they chose to go first with 10 minutes or less on the clock you simply know they will grind out those minutes and set-up a lacrimosa burn under Apollo which simply leads to again a ton of very frustrating non-games.
I’m convinced it’s not a tier 0 format because of two reasons. Price and requirement level to perform well a lot of people on snake eye fiendsmith aren’t piloting the deck optimally and the decks fairly complicated so they end up making mistakes where as you don’t have to learn to interact optimally with a lot of the other decks as they basically don’t play yugioh. Tenpai and the two puppet decks both don’t actually play the game almost at all.
I like how spooky dog wood was used once and everyone starts hating on the card because of times even tho honestly the last match at nat was not a deciding factor here’s why tenpai player had the tools to ok him on the crack back he just needed to live a turn
10:39 He kinda has a point there. With all decks playing the same handtraps
He's so upset he forgot to say "What a nice young man."
I will never understand when content creators say "why am I getting X comment when 4 days ago I was getting Y" MBT has near 187K subs, is it that hard to understand the people saying he's never happy and complains all the time are different people to the ones saying he's a Konami shill?
Idg how that's a hot take.
OCG has big consistency hits and fiendsmith smooths that out more. Like sure you can play through more handtraps but why would you take the deck and ED space when the original build is more flexible.
Because you end up with more starters and your normal combo lines are better. Even just playing the 1 fs greatly improves combo lines from single poplar or single ash. If Moon wasn’t in the format, ir wouldn’t make much sense though.
It just gives you effectively 3 extra bodies off the sequence, the extra equip to send and that means your play of 2 starters through 1 ht is roughly the equivalent of 2 starters vs 0 ht before (a bit of a sidegrade because dies irae is better than number 38 in stopping evenly but worse in that it can’t protect appo on its own).
You don’t actually get much extra ceiling and you lose so many tech spots which you used ro beat other decks but you are a LOT more consistent.
Fiendsmith effect to send is also a pretty good removal effect and the deck is also just more fun now that you’re not always going for zealantis raging phoenix
Uh i’ll add one more thing actually.. if you play necroquip, you get the ability to play through imperm on diabellstar with any normal summon, including a ht, forcing a second ht out and can continue playing on many boards by using a bystial.
Hot take but I wish that snake-eye fiendsmith was tier 0 just so that some of these non interactive pseudo ftk decks that populate top cut now would be pushed back.
I mean realistically Gimmick Puppet and Tenpai will be hit.
@@hatefulgaming1800will they? Puppet Locks and Calamity Locks are basically FTKs and they're not yet banned in the TCG. You could say Master Duel banned them but Master Duel's banlist usually matches the OCG, not the TCG
@@Liliana_the_ghost_cat Konami will hit them because they’re cheap. Simple as that
@@hatefulgaming1800 oh right that makes sense. Kinda like what happened with PePe.
Tbh, i rather see this as a T1 format bc yes, FSSE is a powerful deck but as we saw in the NAWCQ it's beatable, expensive as heck but can be fought.
Love this take. MBT went full G-Unit.
Mbt truly be like:
"Hmmmm, i'll title the video the terrible new format might be ok. Wait a second, why are so many people acting like I'm making light of how god awful this format is?"
Minor spelling mistake in thumbnail lmao wow what a scrub
Just unban everything. Make a new master rule stating you get 10 to 15 none theme card slots between main and extra. It'll let combo decks still do stuff, but the generic bs would end.
This might be a "you're correct but you're not right" situation
Doesn't MTG call a format tier 0 at like 30%? Hogaak did manage to get the 60+% eventually, but like I think they considered it tier 0 before that, and would have even if it got banned before reading the 60% number.
Also, fiendsmith is certainly not a trivial engine. Considering the tangential parts the engine is like half of the extra, which is obviously non trivial. Even just going by the number of cards, it's as big of a commitment as minimalist eldlich engines in the pure eldlich deck. And it's so accessible that you wind up accessing or attempting to access the fiendsmith cards more often than not in the decks that play them. I wouldn't say fiendsmith is tier 0, because it's best play ultimately goes into the snake-eye engine rather than like, searching majesty's fiend, but it's not altogether unreasonable to suggest as such either.
I really do think people underestimating Tenpai hurt snake eye’s results.
Y’all can say snake eyes fiendsmith is broken but not as broken as shifter tenpai lol
Guys just look at his prior takes ofc mbt is right.
- tenpai is bad as hell
- runick is one of the most terrible archetypes ever conceived
- master duel is plagued by zoodiacs (every other game you play you get zoo'd to oblivion)
- dpe didn't replace dragoon
It's all there just know where to look foreheads.
runick player spotted = opinion discarded
the tenpai take is honestly fair, runick is infact a terribly designed archetype, literally no idea what master duel is doing now, but the funniest point is he said the oppisite :clueless:
hey dpe one was a joke, he also made the exact opposite video to make sure he was never wrong, smart move tbh when %80 of your takes are dogwater
remember when he said armed dragon was going to be the best deck in master duel because of galaxy tomahawk
54 minutes ago is losing the dice roll against snake eye fiendsmith
I think the main reason for the hate is everyone playing this format feels like they've been hit by a bus and MBT is out here saying "Yeah but you weren't hit by a plane!"
Snake eye fiendsmith is tier zero at my locals
The Yugioh Community is the DarkSouls equivalent of Card Games
Mfers really don’t understand how 45% is less than 75%
i think part of the problem is the way the short was framed with the words "might be ok" implies that its not that bad and when you consider the fact weve been in snake-eye for god knows how long people are ultimately probably just tired of the format as a whole and tired of konami softballing snake-eye also you defended tear format so that also plays into this as it gives the impression you just defend the meta decks
Gotta say, expecting people to take a fully understood and nuanced take from a SHORT is like expecting a Tweet to not be leaving out some parts of any conversation. Its a damn short, not a video essay
I don't think the format is that bad I think games are fun but I understand why people are frustrated it seems like there is only 1 deck to play even though there is a handful
FF format, Fiendsmith or Ftk take your pick
I think it's still a tier 0 format. Everyone's deck is either Snake Eyes fiendsmith or built to beat snake eyes fiendsmith 😂😂😂
You're*
The reason why I consider it tier zero is because I personally put more stock in how the decks that top perform rather than what percentage of decks top. I know I’m wrong in most senses it’s just why I think of it that way.
Isnt this almost purely a semantic argument? Maybe it isnt a tier 0 format by definition, but why make that distinction unless you are trying to defend the format? Like i think this format isnt very fun and is prohibitively expensive, and that a lot of the cards released recently are so explosively powerful with no downside that it makes the game less strategically interesting in a way that i think is bad. If you dont think that is true, then say it. If you agree, then what is the point of this video? Why can you ask me to engage with your hot take if you are unwilling to try to defend it?
The core distinction here is "snake eyes underperformed" and "the format is healthy" are not equal statements, its not a semantic argument since the discussion is supposed to be around the idea of "hey why didnt snake eyes do as well as we thought it would do?" Not the idea "is this format healthy or not"
I guess most peoples hang up is that alot of people think "snake eyes is not prefoming as well as we thought it would" implies "snake eyes is causing less problems" which is not nessarly true
Because it’s indicative that Snake Eyes isn’t as powerful as we thought relative to the other decks. Which is surprising. The question then is why. Which, for people watching Yugioh content, is probably an interesting question.
Saying, “format bad” isn’t instructive because it doesn’t actually dissect what changes could be made to fix it. As MBT says at the end of the clip, had they preemptively massacred Snake Eyes, the format would have been more intolerable. Saying this is tier zero absolves the other decks in the format of their own contributions to the problem.
That’s the point of this clip and it’s what MBT says over and over again. He doesn’t like the format, but there’s no definition that makes it tier zero. That’s a coherent take.
@@inho5737 I think my issue is that this feels more like an avoidance than a distinction. Because I think it should be pretty obvious to anyone actually trying to play this format that it is unhealthy, and in the video he acknowledges this. It comes across as disingenuous to me because when he posts a video with the subject "fiendsmith was overhyped, the meta is diverse, we were wrong" that might all be technically true, but he also is not an idiot, and he knows that someone trying to make the argument that the format is healthy would start the same way. It just feels like a way for him to farm engagement by starting the sentence but not finishing it, waiting for people to finish it for him in their head and then angrily reply. And then he gets to excitedly tell them that they are wrong actually because he "was talking about the format diversity but he never said anything about health" it feels like he isn't actually interested in a discussion at all he just wants to be right.
@MRawesome202 the real crime here is this was put on a youtube short, this topic was gonna do this as a youtube short no matter if he made it to farm interaction or not
this guy's view on decks like tenpai and ritual beast comes off as very dismissive imo. while tenpai is a pretty easy deck to pick up and play, it's definitely not just "shifter ftk." also the way he talked about ritual beast was also very dismissive, to call one of the most complicated decks in the game's history "protos ftk, shifter ztk" seems very dismissive. i think tenpai and ritual beasts both have a lot more going for them
they should unban the tearlament stuff i think it would be funny
I do agree with MBT that understanding why things are the way they are and not just lamenting the circumstances is important.
That said I think the point people are trying to make is that 50% of the format being one deck is still tier 0 territory. Yeah Magic has the same problem right now in their Modern format but that's just one of many formats you can play and it's largely regarded as an anomaly that will be banned soon.
The fact that Fiendsmith Snake Eye isn't so oppressive that it's actually the only deck just feels like the silver lining on a plate of shit. It's still half of all decks.
shoutouts to that one guy with the green name in chat just fighting for his life whining about every single thing they say and getting completely ignored by everyone LOL
Heckin_Nobody if you read this please stop typing
Joseph made the grandest mistake of all time, trying to add nuance to a discussion on the internet!
Yappers on UA-cam are the best! I made a joke on a tech channel and they took it so seriously
99% of yugioh content consumers are actual monkeys who just want to see their t5 pet deck from 10 years ago competing with modern strategies. Unfortunately this completely plays into konami's strategy of making good deck, banning good deck to unplayability, release new good deck.
Bro is so salty
My man you gotta accept the fact that what you said was a bad take
I find it so hard to concentrate while MBT has paused on...that face.
I think it was more a matter of the clickbait title. Sure it might not be a tier 0 format, but the format is still terrible and definitely not fine. Having a 50% representation in top cut is still extremely dominant, and the other decks in the format are just as uninteractive. Tenpai and Gimmick Puppet makes their monsters towers so they don't have to worry about their ftk/otk being interrupted (which is not ok), Yubel can take advantage of the sackiest removal spell in the game (Super Poly), Ritual Beast is carried by Shifter, and stun does what it always does and says "you are trapped in here with me." The only fair deck that saw somewhat success is Momento, and that deck's problem is that it is too fair. Seeing someone call the format "fine" is simply wrong.
I didn’t play back when toss was the format but I feel like we’re almost on the cusp of toss 2.0. Yubel/SE/Tenpai are the best decks in the room and it’s really a toss up between the 3 as to who wins
This meta is so bad honestly because there shouldn't be a 100% monster usage rate in each deck
It’s not so much tier 0 type bad but it’s annoying and infuriating to play against. Is it as bad as tier 0? No. Is it fun? Also no. It’s a mid ground of it’s not tier 0 but fuck it’s annoying
In the words of a wise man. Nah. Snake eyes gotta go. Buh bye 👋👋👋
Me who remembers his take on Zoodiac getting unbanned.
In all seriousness, when almost half the decks in the room are snake eyes and the other half have to maindeck answers to it, is it not a deck that warps the format/a tier 0 format?
So this is just nearly 30 minutes of MBT defending.
50% is crazy and yes in magic 90% of the time wizards would start banning peices or try to weaken it across formats. Trying to point at ONE format currently in magic being effected by 1 card and say "see magic bad too" is laughable when other formats are still more healthy than yugiohs ONLY format. And the way wizards handled this situation is NOT common (which is why their is a outrage not normally seen in magic) they usually try something when a deck gets over 50. Unlike Yugioh that purposly uses ban lists to just cycle sets for sales.
Yeah the Magic take is wild. The last time we had a Nadu situation was Hogaak, five years ago. But then you look at how WotC communicates and makes it clear what play patterns they acknowledge players don't actually want to play against and you realize they're lapping Konami on pretty much every front. Their recent post about how they don't like Nadu because it's a non-deterministic combo that filibusters games without actually winning in EDH was really nice to see.
Tier Zero to yugioh players just means a format I don't like.
MBT simply critiqued the format. He didn’t criticize or support it per se, but he gave us a very brief and simple analysis of the format and how the deck doesn’t line up with predictions people had for it. He didn’t say the deck was bad or insane, just that it didn’t live up to the exact hype the deck was predicted to have.
That said, I THINK the deck is crazy and I think some people are indeed just tired of the format coming off of months of snake eye. Reminds me of tear format where a new deck does something quite unique and has been boosted exponentially by indirect support (ishizu vs fiendsmith). And despite the engine upgrades, people are tired of seeing the same main deck part over and over. We went through fire king, and then pure, and now we’re onto fiendsmith hybrids of it. People just want to have the conversation about not seeing Snake Eye anymore. I’m sure they’re glad to see fiendsmith yubel. But they’re tired of “normal Ash” and “special poplar” and “link into promethean”
Getem Joseph
Watching your own video is CRAZY
u can tell some of these ppl spend way too much time on reddit
MBT must stand for Mostly Bad Takes
*yore