I rarely put condiments on my homemade burgers. In my opinion, condiments are for adding flavor and avoiding dryness. My burgers are very flavorful and so juicy they usually fall apart. Even though Andrew's burger has a lot less vegetables than mine, the burger is just as juicy and probably more flavorful. No condiments necessary.
Great episode; I felt like you were kind of excited to do this one. The trial and error process is always fun to see and it was cool two recipes in one video, and to see you make a veggie burger for the first time. Plus Bob's Burgers is a great show. I hope that the biweekly schedule with Alvin is helping you feel better.
Fun fact: roasting kale in the oven doesn't in fact rob it of all nutritional value. It reduces the Vitamin C and beta-carotene level, but kale already has so much of those things that it still retains quite a lot after being crisped, and the Vitamin K content remains the same.
@@ethanblackwood reading a recipe and seeing someone make it, give their advice on techniques and actually try it are wildly different experiences tho, looking at a picture of food you cant really imagine how it tastes, but you kinda can when you see every ingredient come together
My fave veggie burger recipe comes from Hot For Food… she uses veggie ground round for texture and vital wheat gluten to help bind it. I don’t mind using the faux ground round personally but you could skip that entirely. The vital wheat gluten is the genius part if you’re wanting to do it totally plant based 😊
I got a wee set of cards for Xmas that have all the different Bob's burger recipes! Time to pull out the "If looks could kale" card and see how well he done! 😉♥
I would love to see you make some of the buffet from the pig scene in spirited away! Anyways, love the content thanks for keeping me entertained Babish!
That might be something to consider in my cooking. I love the depth and flavor mushroom can add to a dish, but the texture has always put me off way too much. Maybe I should try that in meatballs...
@@TrueMentorGuidingMoonlight You could use aquafabe, but chickpea flour is even easier. Why re-invent the wheel when falafel is basically a veggie patty in ball form that holds a great shape?
I have to assume the whole thing was peanuts bunched together so it could resemble a chicken, but I know Andrew could make a lovely whole roasted chicken with some type of peanut crusted rub. That would be cool. There are endless options though
Honestly, I would love to see babish cameo or meet one of the writers for the show. Ask how did they get ideas and names for the certain burgers. While showing off the stuff he cooked to see how the writers feel about their creations being fan made by someone. Seriously, i can guarantee it would be a perfect special for just one day.
To anyone, trying to eat less meat: dont eat meat dishes and substitute the meat for something else. Make a dish based on a non meat ingredient, it comes out better. Onion soup will always taste better than a tofu hot dog. DISCLAMER: I am not talking abaut vegetarians, just people trying to eat less meat. Pls be nice in my comment section.
Not entirely. I feel you can be very creative in making meat replacements, especially for you come from a culture that eats a lot of meat. But I agree there are so many meals that are naturally plant based people don’t know about. People thing less meat means you just eat salads but it’s further from the truth
So true.. Most fake meats and dairy products taste horrid and besides there's already hundreds of vegan recipes that's already existing decades before fake meat was even a thing.
Yup. There are mental blocks you have that you don't even realize the strength of and trying to substitute look-alikes will lead to disappointment. But also remember that you are human and don't beat yourself up for just wanting a burger.
I can recommend adding finely diced mushrooms marinated in soy and spices, then fried until lost most of it's water, and using cous cous instead of bread crumbs. It gives it a nice faux patty texture.
Hey Andy, you should make a Pretty Patty from SpongeBob SquarePants. Pretty patties are basically just dyed burgers. Imagine how cool it would look to eat an all purple burger.
I’m so happy to hear the news. I’m not a vegetarian but I stopped buying meat for home cooking. It’s a wonderful journey realigning your cooking to a meatless ingredient list. It’s fun and super rewarding learning to make rich and deep flavors/textures without meat. I hope you bring this to your channel :) It means a lot to some people. I hope you know that!! You should dive deeper into meatless patties. There’s a lot here!
I’m pretty excited to see vegan/vegetarian dishes like this. A large part of why I love this channel is the creativity and passion he has for food. Being someone who can’t eat red meats or dairy, despite loving both of those, I love seeing others enjoy it. That said, I can’t wait to try out the chard to a crisp for myself.
What happened? Where you bitten by the tick that injects you with a protein that causes meat allergies? No I'm not making that up that's a real creature.
really looking forward to more meatless recipes!! i recommend checking out sauce stache for some high-caliber vegan alternatives, would love to see some stuff covered in basics
We need a series on That’ 70’s Show. I gotta know Kitty’s secret seven layer casserole “ the secret is layers three and six are bourbon. Definitely can’t forget”A pie, A pie, I gotta bake a pie”. Kitty’s red, white and blue pies 🥧. This would be fantastic.
I liked this! I enjoy you adding a vegetarian element to the video this time around. Am now 100% waiting for the Basics with Babish : Veggie burger episode now. Sounds like a challenge you can tackle.
I’m kinda surprised you didn’t make a special sauce of some kind for the Kale burger, seems like it’d benefit from like some homemade thousand island or even just a mayo-mustard blend
Babish is right about Bob toasting his burger buns. He specifically mentions toasting the buns to the burger he was serving in the episode "Something Old, Something New, Something Bob Caters For You.
Babish, since you made a veggie burger in this episode, I'd like to bring up a point about one of your most famous episodes: namely, the Krabby Patty. I don't know if you're aware, but the creators of Spongebob Squarepants did an interview about the Krabby Patty and revealed that it does NOT have any meat products in it; it is a veggie burger. Might be maybe worth revisiting that episode at another time.
As the wife of a cheesy pun master, I am very well versed in the "you tried sweetie" smooch, and I love that Andrew knew that's exactly what happened at the end lol
I miss my son K.Dl. I watch this just cos it reminds me of him. Where ever you are son, I love you and I hope to see you soon . My heart literally hurts but watching this guy makes me think of you
Have you ever considered using the beyond meat ground “beef” for your veggie burger to still get a comparable burger? Either way I love when you do Bob’s burger episodes!
As J Kenji Lopez-Alt also said, the reason you shape the patties that was isn't really because the middle puffs up, it's because the meat around the outside will contract much quicker and sort of pinch in on the burger
@@OoOoOo-we3dn I’m American and I mainly use kale lol. All my salads are kale, anything with lettuce I tend to substitute Kale cause man I hate lettuce.
love to see you trying out veggie burgers, this could be a whole new challenge for you! :) recreating meat dishes can be so much fun and i can imagine people would love to see you do that
Since Tuesday March 1st is National Pancake Day, you could make the Alolan Pancakes from Pokemon episode, "Racing to a Big Event" Or ask Alvin to make it
I love hamburgers, but I really appreciate that you included how to make your own veggie patty. My spouse and I have been trying to eat less meat as well, so I want to try and tackle this later. Thanks!!
Seeing babish go from overnight cooking videos alone in his house kitchen to his own restaurant style kitchen with his wife and child makes my heart happy. Much love 🖤
My wife is a vegetarian. A dedicated veggie burger episode would be cool! She's not vegan, but it would be nice if there was an option that didn't include egg for those who are. Just a thought!
I didn’t know this until I watched my guy Ballistic BBQ but you don’t prevent burger ballooning by creating a dent in the middle. You do it by making sure you don’t over mix the ground meat. It needs room for the juices to move throughout the meat crumbles. That’s what prevents the ballooning and makes a super tender juicy patty.
You have to give props to Bob Belcher for going out of his way to use the highest quality ingredients when he has so much financial trouble
Well I mean, if you're gona make it your livelihood might as well put some love into it.
You know, that's probably one of the reasons he *has* financial problems.
That’s why I get sad when his business is so low. He has so much passion and love for his place.
@@DarthSears and he knows he can save money by going on for less quality/ processed foods, but he doesn't because he has integrity for his art
Also mad props for treating an active bank robber like a human being on the phone & taking his order with charm and enthusiasm.
Kale on a burger seems acceptable, but the fact that there is no sauce or condiment whatsoever on it seems weird.
I noticed that as well
I rarely put condiments on my homemade burgers. In my opinion, condiments are for adding flavor and avoiding dryness. My burgers are very flavorful and so juicy they usually fall apart. Even though Andrew's burger has a lot less vegetables than mine, the burger is just as juicy and probably more flavorful. No condiments necessary.
i simply don’t like condiments so i didn’t even notice
Yea a burger with zero condiments is just weird. Gotta at least have some sauce on the buns.
When I am out to eat, I have the condiments but at home, it's usually just ketchup or barbecue sauce.
straight up, you should do a bob's burgers episode every month. There's a ton of variety, and it all plays into his burger of the day shtick!
but as a BONUS episode, not as one of the usual episodes
Or have H Jon Benjamin do a voice over for the 10 million subs episode. I don't think he's done the goat's head from Archer....
@@alastairhewitt380 oh that would be incredible!!
@@zimmejoc for sure, speaking the cookbook is currated, he could also do a full episode where he does a few similar recipes not unlike this one
Plus it's super easy content and Babby can play around with side dishes to go with them!
Great episode; I felt like you were kind of excited to do this one. The trial and error process is always fun to see and it was cool two recipes in one video, and to see you make a veggie burger for the first time. Plus Bob's Burgers is a great show. I hope that the biweekly schedule with Alvin is helping you feel better.
Fun fact: roasting kale in the oven doesn't in fact rob it of all nutritional value. It reduces the Vitamin C and beta-carotene level, but kale already has so much of those things that it still retains quite a lot after being crisped, and the Vitamin K content remains the same.
Has anyone confirmed this?
Any articles backing this up? I want to look into this more :)
For real?
"Nutritional value" of kale? Eat some liver If you want nutritional value. Organs and eggs are true superfoods for humans.
AFAIK, it is temperature that destroys vitamin C, and if all the kale reached that given temperature, all the Vit C would be destroyed.
I love how mostly everyone in Bob's Burgers is pleasant and wholesome. Mickey the bank robber being beloved character.
Bob has so many special burgers that it could be a whole series. 😋
Same for the episode where he works at 77 Sandwiches on his day off... thats a LOT of sandwiches
Bobing with babish
There is already a cookbook about his burgers! So it wouldn't be that original but it would still be cool to see more of them in video format.
@@ethanblackwood reading a recipe and seeing someone make it, give their advice on techniques and actually try it are wildly different experiences tho, looking at a picture of food you cant really imagine how it tastes, but you kinda can when you see every ingredient come together
@@Cactus_fuckerBinging with Bob
I love how you don’t shy anyway from highlighting your mistakes. “Let’s take a look at that cross section and THAT IS OVERCOOKED”
I thought the "Runny Out Of Thyme" burger looked interesting. I might try making it after seeing you try this one
My fave veggie burger recipe comes from Hot For Food… she uses veggie ground round for texture and vital wheat gluten to help bind it. I don’t mind using the faux ground round personally but you could skip that entirely. The vital wheat gluten is the genius part if you’re wanting to do it totally plant based 😊
Always fun to see a Bob burgers recipe being done.
I got a wee set of cards for Xmas that have all the different Bob's burger recipes! Time to pull out the "If looks could kale" card and see how well he done! 😉♥
I would love to see you make some of the buffet from the pig scene in spirited away! Anyways, love the content thanks for keeping me entertained Babish!
That would be cool I agree would be awesome to see
YAS!!!!
that should be the 10m subscriber special
@@avianKneecaps great idea!!!
could be a joint effort with Alvin!
I think you could do an entire series based on Bob's Burgers! Always loved his names and burgers!!!
May I suggest powdered dried mushrooms instead of breadcrumbs. It will do wonders for flavor and consistency
You may
Umame
I've used nutritional yeast, wonderful as well
Mushrooms can add so much of the savory/meaty flavor that a lot of plant based burgers seem to lack
That might be something to consider in my cooking. I love the depth and flavor mushroom can add to a dish, but the texture has always put me off way too much. Maybe I should try that in meatballs...
My favorite thing about Bob's burger of the day is how he always laughs at his own puns like a true dad
Fun fact: If you want a veggie burger without egg whites, you can achieve that with chia seeds soaked in water.
What happens if I tried using aquafaba? It was one of the egg white substitutes Babish used before, but for fake meringue.
@@TrueMentorGuidingMoonlight I have no idea. I just know that chia seeds can be used as an egg substitute.
Same with aquaflaba
@@TrueMentorGuidingMoonlight You could use aquafabe, but chickpea flour is even easier. Why re-invent the wheel when falafel is basically a veggie patty in ball form that holds a great shape?
If you want a Vegan burger*
destroy lonely reference
no
where's the reference?
baby i’m the
Honestly, you could do an entire series just on the different types of burger of the day from Bob’s Burgers.
I am so here for the meat free alternatives!!! Great way to test the creativity in the kitchen. Please more of this
I wouldn’t mind half a dozen more Bobs Burgers episodes that show is hilarious
The perfect burger to ultimately shove into a food critic's mouth as your family holds him hostage.
Can you please make the peanut chicken from Phineas and Ferb? So peanuty, you can't even taste the chicken!
🎶 so peanuty, you won't even taste the chicken 🎶
I better not taste any chicken!
Okay. You survive.
...for now.
Oh my gosh, YES!!!!
I have to assume the whole thing was peanuts bunched together so it could resemble a chicken, but I know Andrew could make a lovely whole roasted chicken with some type of peanut crusted rub. That would be cool. There are endless options though
Honestly, I would love to see babish cameo or meet one of the writers for the show. Ask how did they get ideas and names for the certain burgers. While showing off the stuff he cooked to see how the writers feel about their creations being fan made by someone.
Seriously, i can guarantee it would be a perfect special for just one day.
How to make a Bobs Burger Burger title... Think of a food, think of the dumbest food pun possible for said food...
Done!
He's probably got the fame / social capital to actually get some questions to one of the writers.
The second I saw that veggie burger go in the oil without egg I knew Babbi'd have a soup burger, happened to me a year ago with some spinach fritters
I always like to see you do a Bob's Burgers recipe because it was a Bob's Burger that introduced me to your channel, so it feels nostalgic.
The burger pun are the end is worthy of making its way onto the show and into the cookbook. Well done
To anyone, trying to eat less meat: dont eat meat dishes and substitute the meat for something else. Make a dish based on a non meat ingredient, it comes out better. Onion soup will always taste better than a tofu hot dog.
DISCLAMER: I am not talking abaut vegetarians, just people trying to eat less meat. Pls be nice in my comment section.
Not entirely. I feel you can be very creative in making meat replacements, especially for you come from a culture that eats a lot of meat. But I agree there are so many meals that are naturally plant based people don’t know about. People thing less meat means you just eat salads but it’s further from the truth
So true.. Most fake meats and dairy products taste horrid and besides there's already hundreds of vegan recipes that's already existing decades before fake meat was even a thing.
Yup. There are mental blocks you have that you don't even realize the strength of and trying to substitute look-alikes will lead to disappointment. But also remember that you are human and don't beat yourself up for just wanting a burger.
I tend to feel like trying to create meat analogs misses the point of eating vegetarian. Just my opinion though.
@@fnjesusfreak The point of being vegetarian is not eating animals...
I can recommend adding finely diced mushrooms marinated in soy and spices, then fried until lost most of it's water, and using cous cous instead of bread crumbs. It gives it a nice faux patty texture.
That sounds delicious!
Hey Andy, you should make a Pretty Patty from SpongeBob SquarePants. Pretty patties are basically just dyed burgers. Imagine how cool it would look to eat an all purple burger.
Would love a Bobs Burger thanksgiving episode. Bobs love of thanksgiving and turkey surpass his love of the kids lol
That final pun was a masterpiece, let no one tell you otherwise.
I have two Bob's Burger recipes to suggest: The Poblano Picasso Burger and The Cage-In Burger.
If you measured the ratios before grinding, then mixed chunks at time of grinding, then there would be less need to work the ground meat
That's love.
I like how instead of grabbing the new slice of burger, you finish off hers first.
The veggie burger still got plenty of food shakes of approval at the end
Down for more meatless options! Great episode!
I’m so happy to hear the news. I’m not a vegetarian but I stopped buying meat for home cooking. It’s a wonderful journey realigning your cooking to a meatless ingredient list. It’s fun and super rewarding learning to make rich and deep flavors/textures without meat. I hope you bring this to your channel :) It means a lot to some people. I hope you know that!! You should dive deeper into meatless patties. There’s a lot here!
Why lie about being vegetarian, huh? Really makes you look suspect.
@@TheVGMajor Not sure what you're talking about. My post literally says that I'm 'not' a vegetarian.
@@fredkennedy8435 lair
I’m pretty excited to see vegan/vegetarian dishes like this. A large part of why I love this channel is the creativity and passion he has for food. Being someone who can’t eat red meats or dairy, despite loving both of those, I love seeing others enjoy it.
That said, I can’t wait to try out the chard to a crisp for myself.
What happened? Where you bitten by the tick that injects you with a protein that causes meat allergies? No I'm not making that up that's a real creature.
I love some of the burger ideas from Bobs burgers. Many times when i hear the burger of the day, I honestly want to try it!
Like the "Baby You Can Chive My Car" Burger. Yum.
@@magicgiraffle YES! I was just thinking of that very burger after i wrote this! Thank you for sharing that! Lol maybe i need to make this burger
Buy the cookbook. They might have some of the onrs you want to try
@@letthePigeondrivethebus did not even know they had a cookbook. Lol will definitely look into it. The black garlic burger too just sounds amazing
@@ericmendenhall2867 the do have Baby You Can Chive My Car, fyi :) And the Bet It All On Black burger
One your best videos in my opinion. That ending pun was in the true spirit of Bob.
really looking forward to more meatless recipes!! i recommend checking out sauce stache for some high-caliber vegan alternatives, would love to see some stuff covered in basics
The indecisive shaking at the end 😂
You should definitely make a tier list of all your recipes if you haven't already
We need a series on That’ 70’s Show. I gotta know Kitty’s secret seven layer casserole “ the secret is layers three and six are bourbon. Definitely can’t forget”A pie, A pie, I gotta bake a pie”. Kitty’s red, white and blue pies 🥧. This would be fantastic.
I love bobs burgers! Thank you for doing such a beautiful dish from one of my favorite episodes!
I always liked Bob purely because he loves his burgers and his puns and does so unabashedly
I liked this! I enjoy you adding a vegetarian element to the video this time around. Am now 100% waiting for the Basics with Babish : Veggie burger episode now. Sounds like a challenge you can tackle.
Bob’s burgers are so creative, from the name to the ingredients. I want to go there every day just to eat what the burger of the day is
I’m kinda surprised you didn’t make a special sauce of some kind for the Kale burger, seems like it’d benefit from like some homemade thousand island or even just a mayo-mustard blend
Love these bobs burgers episodes it’s been a while but I love them. Try the “do the Brussel” burger from the cookbook next time it’s amazing
Destroy Lonely reference
this vid came out before the song
I love watching his videos on my breaks. So soothing
This felt like such an OG episode; the music, the voiceover, the production. It really reminds me of simpler times...
Flax seed also helps bind pretty well id also coat in panko before searing it should help get that crispy crust
I would also add mushrooms into the veggie burger.
Babish is right about Bob toasting his burger buns. He specifically mentions toasting the buns to the burger he was serving in the episode "Something Old, Something New, Something Bob Caters For You.
Babish, since you made a veggie burger in this episode, I'd like to bring up a point about one of your most famous episodes: namely, the Krabby Patty. I don't know if you're aware, but the creators of Spongebob Squarepants did an interview about the Krabby Patty and revealed that it does NOT have any meat products in it; it is a veggie burger. Might be maybe worth revisiting that episode at another time.
When did they confirm this?
@@sundownchild5012 July 2017. There's an article on Cinemablend avout the interview.
Which is weird because SpongeBob said that it's a beef patty
We all know that it's made of BIG MEATY CLAWS
@@Retro_Red I mean, mincemeat pies don’t have any meat. And beef does have more than one meaning.
You could get so many ideas from Bob's burgers. Every episode they do a different recipe
As the wife of a cheesy pun master, I am very well versed in the "you tried sweetie" smooch, and I love that Andrew knew that's exactly what happened at the end lol
How was sweetie? Tasty?
Watching you try and fail to grab the fallen Krispy kale multiple times before succeeding was wonderful
This is a great episode, I love Babish and I love Bob's burgers.
We totally need "The Child Molester - Comes with Candy!" Burger. Would love to see a Burger with Candy on it XD
Any chance we could get more of Jess, seeing her pop in made my day.
You like her perkyness too?
@@Thakket lol for sure
🤣🤣🤣
I miss my son K.Dl. I watch this just cos it reminds me of him. Where ever you are son, I love you and I hope to see you soon . My heart literally hurts but watching this guy makes me think of you
Have you ever considered using the beyond meat ground “beef” for your veggie burger to still get a comparable burger? Either way I love when you do Bob’s burger episodes!
Gotta say, impossible burger is waaay better
Field roast is where it's at
@@lexhart5273 let's be honest, they're both dog food... ingredients confirm it
As J Kenji Lopez-Alt also said, the reason you shape the patties that was isn't really because the middle puffs up, it's because the meat around the outside will contract much quicker and sort of pinch in on the burger
I wanna try that veggie burger. Not to replace eating a burger but as its own unique dish
That little shoulder shrug at the very end, tells me all I want to know about veggie burgers. 😂😂
Cool to see you do a meal with Kale in it!
I am confused, do Americans useually don't eat kale?
@@OoOoOo-we3dn I’m American and I mainly use kale lol. All my salads are kale, anything with lettuce I tend to substitute Kale cause man I hate lettuce.
Bruh 6:02 🤮
That kiss at the end was, well, *chefs kiss*. Get it?
Now that Arthur has ended, please make Leaning Tower of Pisa Honeycake from, "Dad's Dessert Dilemma", episode
Tapioca and rice starch can help be used as binders if you don’t want to use egg whites
love to see you trying out veggie burgers, this could be a whole new challenge for you! :) recreating meat dishes can be so much fun and i can imagine people would love to see you do that
Super glad the kitchen was cold today ;)
Grow up
bro thought he was lone
The second burger you made reminded me of that SpongeBob episode where Mr. jeans sells the krusty Krab and the burgers are made of processed mush
Can you do stardew valley??? Theres so many recipes!
The bobs burgers cookbook is my favorite. 2021 I spent making one burger a week from it. Chef kisses
Also the beyond meat makes EXCELLENT bobs burgers
Also 6:02 🤮
I’ve been craving burgers lately.
Same David, same.
Especially when the kitchen is cold...
6:02 🤮
Mickey is easily my favorite side character no one else makes me laugh as consistently on the show
Destroy Lonely?
I've been waiting for so long for bcu to go over more meatless options. Nice to see!
Yeyy!! Would love to see more vegetarian alternative after the regular meaty ones
"As of yet the only known way to rob Kale of nutritional value while making it semi-pleasant to eat."
[North German Grünkohl has entered the chat]
Since Tuesday March 1st is National Pancake Day, you could make the Alolan Pancakes from Pokemon episode, "Racing to a Big Event"
Or ask Alvin to make it
Fun Fact: It exists an official Bobs Burgers Burger Cookbook. I have it on my shelf, a lot of the specialty burgers are featured in it.
"That is overcooked"
Me thinking He always undercooked his burgers
Honestly I wish I had a Bob's Burgers irl. But this is a great substitute!
I love hamburgers, but I really appreciate that you included how to make your own veggie patty. My spouse and I have been trying to eat less meat as well, so I want to try and tackle this later. Thanks!!
yay! A no meat recipe!!! Thank you🤠🥦🥬🌽🧄🍔🥗
Must've been pretty cold in there huh Mrs Babish? lol
H. John Benjamin is yelling "YOU ROCK!!" at his computer at you, Andrew! He's also yelling at Gene, Tina, and Louise for...reasons...
As a vegetarian and longtime fan of yours, I’m excited to see more veggie recipes!!
Seeing babish go from overnight cooking videos alone in his house kitchen to his own restaurant style kitchen with his wife and child makes my heart happy. Much love 🖤
Braless woman 6:02 🤮
@@batmeme9349 who tf cares
@@stackofpancakes9383 you 😳
Wow! Loved the idea of the non veg version! Looks smashing too 🖤
Wild Thornberries have entered the Chat
"The only known way to rob kale of it's nutritional value"
You cannot rob an empty safe
My wife is a vegetarian. A dedicated veggie burger episode would be cool! She's not vegan, but it would be nice if there was an option that didn't include egg for those who are. Just a thought!
In case he doesn't get around to doing that, someone in the comments suggested chia seeds soaked in water as a substitute for egg
@@KirbyCom yes, ground flax seeds work just as well (flax egg)
Cornstarch with water is also an easy egg substitute
I didn’t know this until I watched my guy Ballistic BBQ but you don’t prevent burger ballooning by creating a dent in the middle. You do it by making sure you don’t over mix the ground meat. It needs room for the juices to move throughout the meat crumbles. That’s what prevents the ballooning and makes a super tender juicy patty.
You should do a basics with babish on tofu, seeing as you’re eating less meat! I’d love tips and tricks for that stuff