When is a Watchmaker a Watchmaker?
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- Опубліковано 25 лип 2024
- In looking at watches with the individual attention of talents ranging from rose engine guilloché to brilliant movement design … but what essential skill must a maker of watches have to be considered a “Watchmaker?"
- Навчання та стиль
Hi Bill, one of my customers shared this video with me. Thanks for the positive words on my guilloche. I price based off of my labor time. The dial on the Infinity Series has 7 different parts, each machined here in our workshop, then the guilloche itself has 100s of individual operations. All together about 150 hours of work. Other guilloche patterns can take a few hours or even minutes to do.
I also agree that a watchmaker is someone who makes watch parts especially the movement. My business plan was to use the Infinity series to fund an in house project and I have successfully been able to do that. Keep your eyes peeled in the spring for some exciting announcements.
-Best,
Josh Shapiro
Hi Josh, thanks for your comments. Here's the irony I see in what you're doing. If you are able to create and make your own movement, you'd be hard-pressed to have one as good as the UWD 33.1 ( price around €4,000). In fact, your watches in their current state are far superior in both finish and movement (because of the Marco Lang-designed movement) than most luxury commercial watches. The time you spend may not be viewed as the same value you put on your time as watch-buyers/collectors would. It may be seen as lack of skill/experience rather than mastering the rose engine to create the guillochè patterns. However, I am very interested in your future success. When you have something new, contact me through this short video I did for collectors wanting to get in touch. ua-cam.com/video/uVqCTuA-naw/v-deo.html Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
@austin rosin Hi Austin, I have done some redbar events in NYC. Also did a youtube interview with them earlier in the year. I just moved into my own facility. Once the pandemic clears up I will do events here. Also, I give lots of facetime tours to my customers.
Great video. First watch ...This is a USA 🇺🇸 guy with a major movement and a great dual. I don’t see a problem with the cost if you want that.
Nice video mate.
Hey Tim... about half that price would be worth it for me, but if you like it ... as they say (truthfully), it's your money; so your decision. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
The infinity weave is insane. Definitely one of the best guilloche I have seen.
I agree Leya! Wonderful master work with guillochè. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
Another excellent video with more amazing watches. Thanks as alway Bill.
My pleasure Bruce ... getting any ideas for 'Going off the reservation? 😉' Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
Great video. These days, most serious manufacturers use sub assembles. Rolls-Royce uses engines from BMW and VAG. AMD outsources its chip production. Software companies use pre-built libraries. Restaurants buy in produce. I don't see a problem with this.
Nick, RR uses BMW engines because BMW bought RR. My old RR Silver Spur left a trail of hydraulic fluid and god knows what as I tooled along in it. A true English automobile! A lot of top drawing watchmakers use the établissage system, but in more granular form.Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
Some interesting thoughts and research from Bill. Excellent video
Thank you kindly, Anil! Take care an be safe! Bill 😷
I absolutely love the UWD33.1 movement. I first saw it in 2016 in the limited edition SINN 6200 WG MEISTERBUND 1.
The SINN watch is stunning, with an approxmate price of around €14500. (Steel case.) To me this is a more realistic price for a piece with this movement.
For me, to be described as "great," a watchmaker must produce all of the components in the timepieces in house.
Thank you for showing me some wonderful watches the I wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity to see.
Stuart
Stuart, the Leinfelder Benno watch has the UWD 33.1 for just under €8,000. Other than most of their designs are ugly ... they've got excellent movement in the 33.1. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci Thanks Bill.
Very nice review
Thank you e.p. rfa 🙂Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
That Jaeger and Benzinger with the golden sub seconds is a masterpiece. Has a hand engraved balance bridge as well like a Lange. That's a bandwagon I'd be happy to jump on if all their watches are that nice.
I like them too, Nefarion, and you know what you're getting when you buy one. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
Spent hours already pausing this video - its one of your best. I pause and go take a look
Glad to hear you enjoyed it Dane. Thanks man! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Fantastic dial .
I think so too, Billy! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
I agree with this outlook. "Real" watchmaking means movements. But you point out cases where the movement may be third-party, but there's more to it than just sourcing and assembling parts. Whereas, in other cases, it *is* just that. And, at the end of the day, it's about the movement. I love Dornbluth -- whenever I go to watchbuys to look at Sinn, I end up staring at Dornbluth. If I get one, it will surely be an in-house.
Thelonious, I think that Dornbluth & Sohn have come a long way since the 1990s when they were no longer under the Soviet Union's domination. Originally, they were modifying ETAs to get started. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci thanks Bill. Yours is the watch-geek channel where I actually learn stuff. E.g. your recent one, about the liabilities of stop-seconds hacking, changed my entire outlook, far as that goes. You stay safe as well.
WOW that Calabrese is not just a watchmaker he is an artist and a supreme engineer.
I would really like to get the Kronos by Calabrese, Dane. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
A lot of the great companies used outher people's movements Patek and Rolex it comes down to personal choice to decide if you consider a company a watch Maker or a Watch Assembler , Great Question !
Junior ... as a pretentious watchmaker myself...founder of "La Société d swes Horlogers Prétentieux" (...always more pretentious in French) ... all I have to do is to buy a movement, case, hands and dial ... and Bob's your uncle! I've made a watch. If you make a watch yourself, I think you'll see that doing so isn't rocket science (but it is fun!). I'm all for the établissage system, but it's a lot more granular than buying a ready-made movement, case, dial and hands. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
Hi Bill, good to hear from you. For me personally, a watchmaker need to be able to make his own movements and all the other components, like Roger Smith, F.P. Journe,
Philippe Dufour, Daniel Roth, just to name a few, to be considered a watchmaker.
That's a very high standard. FYI, Philippe Dufour doesn't make the components of his movement, needless to say the dial or case.
It's difficult to find where the line is between slapping together movement, case, dial and hands and the kind of établissage that Daniel Roth still uses. Perhaps it's a matter of granularity; regardless of who made the part. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
Watchmaking is an art form, some are masters and some are purely functional. Some buyers will settle for nothing less than perfection in small production, while others will be happy with much less, yet beautiful watches. Would you rather have a personalized Ferrari or a Ford Shelbee Mustang? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I think that the Shelby is better built and would last longer than the temperamental Ferraris. But I don't want a Mack truck, either. It's more than the eye of the beholder ... usually nothing that a good loupe can't determine. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
From what I understand, Kudoke uses a Habring2 as a base movement for the Kaliber 1, but maybe I'm wrong?
I've heard that too, but in looking at the A11 and the Kudoke1 movement ... I don't see it, Premshree. There's a difference between Stefan Kudoke working with Marco Lang and Richard Habring and having the same movement. Take care, Bill
Excellent insights as usual...I think the industry focuses too much on dials and not on movements. Guilloche on dials is great, but is it more important than finishing on a movement? Or the quality of the movement itself?
Well put, Otherguy ... my thoughts exactly. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
George Daniels is a watch maker after him it's gets a bit gray. There's small teams/company's that make watches too. And there's the rest.
Dornbluth and Habring are the only company's I'm aware of who make their own product at a good price. Bill do you know any other brands who operate like Dornbluth and Harbring at their price? I think Lehman make their watches too and not too expensive
Yes, Daniel's is up there. Aaron Becsei's Bexei watches from Hungary is another one man operation. Stunning pieces all in house. He's also an AHCI member.
Yes Luke, Lehman manufactures their own movement, and while the base version is fairly spartan, the higher numbered ones look good. I couldn't find their prices, though. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
Hard to beat a cup of English tea in the Spanish sun and furthering my education. Thanks Bill. I am waiting on Ophion Zelos with a salmon dial.Like you I appreciated the honesty and Miguel invited me to call in if I get to Madrid.At under 3,000 euros on alligator strap I can even take it on a dog walk.It was also important to support my host country.
With the resurgence of COVID19, I'll not be traveling outside my neighborhood any time soon. If I leave the state, I'll have to quarantine for 14 days ... so I'm staying put. Give the guys at Ophion my best! Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
Hi Bill, learning a lot as usual. Thanks for informative videos. In your opinion, why you think Kudoke is special? His movement seems like a UNI-tas architecture. I am not saying it is a bad thing, just wondering why you think it is more special than Shapiro?
G'morning Bill 😎 . Imo, no, they are watch customizers and regardless of how nice their customization might be at the end of the day they're still just customizers even though they might be really good customizers. In the automotive world they would be like Boyd Coddington or Chip Foose & in the motorcycle World they would be like Indian Larry or Billy Lane . Yes they make some of the most beautiful motorcycles and cars you'll ever see but at the end of the day they're still top-flight customizers. I don't know if you heard the news this morning that most everyone was talking about all day or not, but I'm assuming you probably have but Oris recently stepped up their game and went from being micro brand customizers to watch makers when the news broke that they are now building their own movements starting with the caliber 400 in the new Oris Aquis. I have to say if it's as good as it looks on paper I think they knocked it out of the park 😀 ...
Hi I-Time! Did you see this video on Oris: ua-cam.com/video/wCH3GV5s56w/v-deo.html ? I want an Indian MC! Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
Great perspective. That said where would Sarpaneva fit?
His moonphases are so unique and his design aesthetic, he would have to be classed as a true and true watchmaker. Cheers.
JG C, I think Sarpaneva has started making his own movements, but shot of that, he just creates unique designs. Fully Mechanical put it well. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Thanks Bill. Shapiro seems VERY expensive IMO. Also, the Kudoke Kaliber 1 is a Habring2 A11B base, so is that his own movement?
Hi Rick, yes, I know about the A11b base, but I've been having a difficult time nailing down what Kudoke did to "make it his own." The Kaliber 1 doesn't look a thing like the A11b; and getting an idea of what's Stefan's and what's pure A11 isn't at all clear. I also know that Kudoke lives in the Dresden area (the Pad & Quill article made it sound like he was in the eastern-most part of Germany on the Czech border), and that he and Marco Lang (also in Dresden) were in contact; so I wouldn't be surprised if Marco didn't add his influence to the Kaliber 1. Maybe Kudoke will make it to next year's WatchTime Show... and we can ask. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
I swear, this channel is going to cost me a fortune!!!👍
You and me both, Phil! Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
what do you think of Horage's new tourbillon 1 watch which has its own in-house movement?
Hi Herman, I'm not sure about it yet. Their in-house was pretty rough, but their tourby ... might be their redemption. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
Thx Bill. I agree an accomplished watchmaker ought to have his own caliber(s). But I cannot dismiss a brand or watchmaker for not having a movement they call their own. In-house movements add (rightly or wrongly) an intrinsic element of desirability to a watch, however I believe watch making goes beyond the mechanics. Design, finishing and workmanship have their place and market value as well.
Good point, FFA. Hermès watches have movements by Vaucher (and even some complications by Agenhor), and I wouldn't mind having one of them. As individual "watchmakers," though, to call oneself a "watchmaker," I do believe some talent in creating a movement and/or complications is essential. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
"Watchmaker" is an individual who can make and/or repair watches. Trying to add an additional definition of someone who makes their own in-house movements as a test for the term is just silly in my eye. I recently purchased a David Walter watch with a dial by Shapiro, case by Walter, engraving by Akmaev, movement by Soprod. The watchmaker who made it is Walter; but Shapiro and Akmaev are also trained watchmakers.
John, we wouldn't want to be silly ... would we? Ever since I took up watchmaking and founded Pretentious Watchmakers ( La Société d swes Horlogers Prétentieux) I've learned that buying a watch case, movement and dials & hands isn't rocket science. Buying more expensive ones, like a movement from Vaucher, UWD or Agenhor, is still pretty easy ... just takes money. So when I use the term "watchmaker" I want it to mean more than what I do. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
I think we are conflating watchmaker and brands. A brand Is a trading name, Rolex, Piaget, etc. A watchmaker is a person who makes a watch. Brands employ watchmakers. Watchmakers develop brands, Laurent Ferrier. The use of off the shelf movements is nothing new and frequently done for cost savings and convenience. The notion of an in-house movement being a necessity has only been a thing for maybe 20 years. Patek, VC, and Audemars used JLC movements for the longest time. These are decisions made by the brand for business reasons.
Tom, off-the-shelf movements are standard, and the UWD 33.1 is by a noted watchmaker, not committed for a 'brand.' The 'brands' go for mass-produced movements rolling back the costs of development every year they're in use with little or no motivation to re-tool their mass production machinery nor re-train their staff. You are absolutely, right, though: most of the 'Brand' decisions made are for business reasons and not reasons for improving horological excellence nor innovation. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
Hi Bill, what do you think of Dornblueth & Sohn watches? Thanks.
Eugene, they seem to keep improving. The father is getting up there, but the son is into it. Take care, Bill
@@watchartsci Thanks, Bill. Have a good night.
Creating unique movement is highest honor and prestige for a watchmaker but I can’t see anything wrong with using reliable movements if the final product is outstanding and the price reflects the product reasonably 😉
I agree with you on that point Mohamed ... especially if you know what you're getting. However, north of $20,000 I don't think an alien off-the-shelf (though excellent) movement and in-house dial/hands is enough. Do you? Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci I don’t think having infinity watch is a good choice with price that could give you a lot of excellent watches from major companies like Breguet.
I have no expertise in watchmaking. i will take your word for it though.
I'm no expert either Nowshed, but as a collector, I need to know as much as possible about what I'm paying for. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci Besides, at that price point shouldn't I buy a direct Marco Lang watch?
I suppose it is very hard to be a fully integrated manufacturer these days, due to economies of scale and so many specialist companies being able to supply components. A Watchmaker can service the engine of a watch, whereas a jeweller/engraver would have a different skill set.
Hey FM, I'm all for the établissage system that still some top watchmakers use (e.g., Daniel Roth) in making their own watches and movements. I can buy a UWD 33.1 for around €4,000, a case from Voutilainen & Callen for around €1,000 tops, and dial/hands of excellent quality from a number of sources ... including grand feu enamel. I can then put them all together ... but other than a member in good standing of the La Société d swes Horlogers Prétentieux (Pretentious Watchmakers), I'm not a real watchmaker. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
It all begins and ends with the movement. Would Mr. Breguet be quite so revered if his resume consisted solely of coin-edging & blued hands -- not the tourbillon? ...
Quite so Quentin. Abraham Louis Breguet would not be so well-regarded were it not for his creativity and innovation in movement-making. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci Great stuff, Bill -- keep 'em coming ...
I think that if you are selling watches , unless you are making the movements, you should be classed as a watch manufacturer , I personally have " built" three watches from bought/salvaged parts but certainly don't regard myself as a watch maker! :-)
I like to think of myself as a Pretentious Watchmaker ... having put together several watches like you have ... but a 'real' watchmaker ... nope! Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
The question would be, "are dial and case makers watchmaker?" I would say yes if they were able to make the great quality. Id put Billard Sartory as an example on this one.
Since there is no such thing as in-house until Zenith revolutionized the industry, some watches are assembled with all parts that were bought. The only changes made is the dial rebranded. Should those old brands which only assembled be called watchmaker? Id say no. They didnt make anything or even assemble a movement would at least make it a bit more qualifiable.
Should ETA monkeys(names for new graduates from watchmaker school)generally be called a watchmaker? They do have the ability to deconstruct and reassemble simple movements. Id say yes.
What you're talking about, Tippy, is a type of établissage, and there's nothing wrong with that. Daniel Roth , among others use it. However, it's far more granular than simply buying a movement, case and dial, putting them together and calling it "watchmaking." Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
Wow zenith is such a remarkable brand? Revolutionise industry to in house movt
Dr. Roger W. Smith OBE is a watchmaker, the only real one!
Smith certainly is real, but so too is Marco Lang, Daniel Roth, F.P. Journe, Rolf Lang and a host of others. We've got more options than waiting 15 years and springing over £100,000. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci Agreed. Roger Smith totally rocks - but if he were the _only_ real watchmaker in the world, I think we'd be in trouble! :-)
I always give you a thumbs up first, then watch it. what does that say ? :)
It shows how much I've learned from you Stoneitful? 😉 Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
I can't get over how much Shapiro's dial copies its look from Stefan Kudoke.
Hey Forbin, I thought they looked exactly like Roger Smith's. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci Ah, right you are, Bill! I've never seen a Smith: www.ablogtowatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Roger-Smith-GREAT-Britain-Watch-aBlogtoWatch-10.jpg
@@watchartsci Bill I recommend you watch my HSNY lecture. This aesthetic I use is a style for engineturned dials. Roger Smith uses it, George Daniels used it, Breguet used it, Frodsham, Patek, Etc . Lepine was the first to use this engineturned style of dials and Breguet popularized it. You seem like a fairminded person and I hope you will hear this not as a critque. Bill, I am not a huge brand, posts like this hurt me , my business and my family. Please reach out for information and talk to brands like me before you post to make sure its fair and accurate. I am not Rolex I am a human being.
The reason why I only buy rolex, jlc, zenith
Those are all good brands, but can you name the watchmaker of any one of them, Junior? If you have a Habring2, you know the watchmaker is Richard Habring. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci I see. My collection is build around heritage, branding and serviceability. Being able to bring it back to the company and getting it service is one of the priority
:)
Heee Haw Haaaa Veeeee! Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
I prefer KUDOKE