Why Toronto Removed a Subway Line and Why It’ll Be Okay (Eventually)
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- Toronto is soon going to be in a rare club of cities that have ripped out a rapid transit line. But how did it happen, and what does the future hold? Find out in today's video!
Special thanks to Transitthinker for the Scarborough Subway Extension construction footage!
/ @transitthinker
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Ever wondered why your city's transit just doesn't seem quite up to snuff? RMTransit is here to answer that, and help you open your eyes to all of the different public transportation systems around the world!
Reece Martin (the RM in RMTransit) is an urbanist and public transport critic residing in Toronto, Canada, with the goal of helping the world become more connected through metros, trams, buses, high-speed trains, and all other transport modes.
Imagine UA-camrs 30 years later doing a video about Secrets of the TTC saying: "We are standing at Kennedy Station, where a LRT line used to exist. Not much of it remains nowadays except for a few pillars here and there..."
"As well as the abandoned and filled-in tunnel on the curve with the only below-grade segment... "
Sad!
@@RMTransit "The remaining SRT ROW having been obliterated by electrified triple-tracking projects on the Stouffville line... "
Unfinished London
Kennendy LRT which is now a nothing..
As the person who presented the plan for the original LRT line to Scarborough Council in April of 1974, there are some important details you are leaving out.
1. The province came in and forced the TTC to use ICTS (Intermediate Capacity Transit System) instead of light rail vehicles. This almost doubled the cost and is the reason the line was never extended to Malvern.
2. They then forced the TTC to use much smaller size tunnels to save money which also made it impossible to replace the Mark I cars with the newer cars used in Vancouver as they won't fit. This also means that these tunnels would need to be replaced to do any upgrade as the Mark I cars are no longer built and the new ones don't fit. Also, the system does not like snow.
3. The linear induction motors used in these cars are very inefficient and cause the reaction rail (the flat one between the tracks to get too hot in stations.) To rectify this problem they used a laminate rail in the stations, but like the laminated ballast transformers in fluorescent lights. the laminates loosen up and vibrate because of the AC current induced in them,
4. The motors do not work well in snow, especially getting from the yard up to McCowan Station. The system often shuts down in snow.
5. To run line 2 up the right of way would require a total rebuild of Kennedy Station to change the alignment from east-west to north-south. This would have shut the line down at Warden for the rebuild.
6. The existing track right of way is not wide enough to carry line 2 cars.
7. They could not make the curve from north to east as it is way too tight.
8. The elevated could not hold them as it is too narrow and lacks strength.
9. The line from Warden to Kennedy was supposed to be in an open cut like Eglinton to Davisville.
10. Running the subway as an elevated up McCowan would need a much wider elevated than the Sky Train in Vancouver.
The Scarborour SRT is what results when one level of government interferese in another.
Thank you...this is just another reason private ownership would be the way to go.
They were rebuilding Kennedy station when I moved back to Scarborough like a bit over 10 years ago it made getting to work incredibly annoying to the point of me just quitting that $20 an hour job. Is it true that the RT trains don’t need drivers I heard they’re fully automatic but couldn’t find enough info about it
The SRT still has drivers because the TTC has unions
@@sommebuddy God, no.
@@sommebuddy Private ownership can still get you an underbuilt line. Just look at the Canada Line, which was built in a private-public partnership. The capacity it was expected to hit in the early 2020s it hit in 2011, and the line will eventually be too crowded.
Furthermore, full private ownership won't work either. In the Indian city of Gurgaon (a satellite city for Delhi), an entirely privately financed and operated metro system was built, but after a few years, they ran out of money to run the line, and sold operations to the Delhi Metro Rail Corporation, which has proven to be quite successful in building and running effective metro lines.
Looks like a London-Docklands-esque service. Upgrading and extending it would seem the 'European' thing to do. What always baffles me it that most stations have almost no development around them. It's like most of those GO-stations, there are loads of parking lots, a bus stop, some bicycle infrastructure if you're lucky, but then .... big voids, no housing, no businesses, no attraction pools resulting in 'low ridership'. This makes it more 'easy' to scrap lines or reduce services. I understand that most (GO-)stations are build for the future, but development seems not to take place at a desirable pace at most of these stations. A shame .....
Transit oriented development is the way to go. It is unfortunate that many North American operators do not utilize the real estate around their stations to their fullest extent.
Comparing it to the Docklands is extremely generous. The area of Scarborough (arguably already the least dense borough) is almost entirely industrial/distribution centres with residential areas not close enough to suggest heavy ridership. Ellesmere and Midland stations are practically at the same intersection, so they end up taking ridership from each other.
Honestly, I’m glad they’re replacing it with a proper subway, it’s a bit of an embarrassment to the TTC. Metro6 has a great video on his channel where he goes into more detail than I ever could.
There are actually big TOD plans moving forward for a bunch of GO stations, just takes time! Maple, Port Credit, Oakville, Burlington all come to mind
I agree we haven't been very good about TOD. I thought I'd explore some neighbourhoods accessible by GO recently and remarkably few had much nearby OR the thing they did have was quite a distance from the station itself (e.g. Guild park is a 20-30min walk from Guildwood station through a mostly residential area and Unionville same issue). 😢
@@tonywalters7298 they utilize the real-estate around stations... providing space for cars that are barely ever there. So it's about the shittiest possible way to use the space, isn't it? I would think the wise thing to do would be to bite the bullet and do some work making the stations more pedestrian accessible, try to attract some enterprises by dangling the carrot of "You can be within walking distance of a train station!" or even providing free fare cards to distribute to their workers.
It's about the easiest way I could think of to invest your tax money now into long term tax money later. It's like the opposite of "hey, we want to build a walmart on the outskirts of town and we'll do it for free, but we want a tax break and you're going to have to maintain the water, transit and power supply infrastructure that goes out to us."
I choked on my water when you said midland station because my first immediate memory is the smell of the recycling plant next to it.
The reason for the SRT's demise is the lack of investment in maintaining and upgrading the trains and systems. the excellent Vancouver SkyTrain is the same technology but has seen several generations of rolling stock and control systems; the SRT has seen none.
Yup
Honestly why throw good money after bad?
Just because you wanted to work doesn't mean it will or even can. Too many people get caught up in public transit because they think it's in general a good thing and then cling to it when a project is poorly conceived and managed.
@@M167A1 I would attribute that to the constant, general pushback against all mass transit projects in north america - good and bad ones alike. It seems there is just so much more work needed to push a project through so once one gets in there is, indeed, some sunk cost fallacy at play. I'd argue that it's kind of justified though.
There's also the fact that there's so many stupid people with too much power constantly proposing red herring projects like the Las Vegas Loop, skybus, monorails and so on that are all sub-optimal compared to actual mass-transit but make people who haven't specifically looked into everything go "Oooooh cool it's better than a train because it's cool and new!"
Frankly speaking, lots of people are making money off of the status quo of transit in north america and it's surely creating a hostile environment within which badly designed projects are both more frequently proposed and also pushed forward not because it's good but because its what we're forced to do.
They can't really give the SRT new rolling stock without modifying the very sharp curve at Kennedy - it's too sharp to fit the Mark II and III cars that Vancouver has.
@@M167A1 Yes, good point. I hate to compare one thing to another but BART in the San Francisco Bay Area comes to mind. Proprietary wheels, non-standard gauge, and it keeps sweeping up all the local transit money year after year, while more sensible systems with standard off the shelf equipment, standard gauge rail, are forced to go without, even for more modestly priced projects.
I've recently riden on the SRT and I got sensory overload, it was LOUD. As a regular user of the TTC, the SRT is the most consistantly loud part of the system.
I think the curves on L1 are definitely louder, especially as they are underground
@@RMTransit well yes but it's rather loud for a minute compared to somewhat loud the entire journey. As someone with sensory issues, the RT is a worse me for me compared to Line 1.
@@RMTransit regular srt user here, the srt is absolutely louder by a good margin while running & during turns
come to California and ride our 70's made Metro- BART
@@mattyu1008 it is loud - regardless of curves. You can't hold a conversation while riding the RT
Well thought out commentary. Ultimately the extension of Line 2 will be a significant improvement. Not having to change trains is a bigger deal to development I think than people give credit to. The long gap in time between the demise of the SRT and Line 2 extension is an issue I hope the TTC sees fit to address in a way that not only helps current riders but encourages developers to plan and begin executing new construction to be served by Line 2’s service before it even arrives. Maybe something will be done to encourage and stimulate growth so when the extension opens there will be more to serve. Integrated transit and development like elsewhere.
Yes, the best line I heard was from former Scarborough councilor Gordon Chong during one debate at City Hall during the David Miller years, where he said that transit users preferred a 'one-bum' ride over multiple transfers.
Hey, great job with your channel! I live in east Scarborough. It takes me a 45min total ride time on the bus at night to get to Kennedy Station for the subway downtown. I used to work at STC and that was a 30min ride time. If I could get to a subway in 30min and get downtown in one shot instead of transferring at Kennedy, that would be fantastic. What we lost with not upgrading Line 3 to LRT though was the second phase was supposed to go all the way to Malvern Town Centre via Centennial College. The land has been reserved/empty since forever for that purpose. You can see it on the north side of Sheppard Ave. just east of Markham Rd. @Progress.That would have served a very isolated community and eliminated the hoard of students at STC that have to take a bus the rest of the way to an ever-expanding Scarborough College. And dude, the SRT is noisy AF. The stretch between STC to Midland and, from Ellesmere to Lawrence is sooooo effing loud inside the train. You should record and post that. I can't continue the conversation with the person sitting next to me because of the noise! Thanks for the videos. I appreciate the discussion about good transit.
The SRT could also have been extended and improved at lower cost than converting it to use trams!
I’m looking forward to the Line 2 extension. I think there could be one or 2 more stations and an extension out to Malvern, but the current plan seems solid enough. Truth be told the SRT has never been useful to me. The stations in between Kennedy and Scarborough Town Centre are very rarely used and using them as connections is just a pain. This in my experience is why most people just use it to go to and from Kennedy and STC. The subways proposed station are situated in a much better area.
yes exactly. most scarborough residents prefer taking the bus to the srt. the stations are too awkward for frequent use for most people as RM pointed out. who exactly gets off at lawrence and walks to very important destinations like the rug retailers and the burger king? uh not many lol
I recall my trips on the Scarborough RT being loud and shaky. All things considered (range, speed, comfort), I think people in Scarborough will be better served by the three-stop subway extension than by the current train. It will also become more important to have the subway once (if?) the Sheppard line gets exended, so that the Sheppard and McCowan stop becomes an interchange between subways.
I took the RT to Scarborough Town Center 2 weeks ago and it nearly shattered my eardrums. It's night and day compared to the Toronto subway I've ridden all my life and I was a bit surprised to see RMTransit talk about it so positively
@@_seola_ its not that they cant afford new trains on the bd/line 2 those new trains can't fit in there smaller current yards in order for them to get those cars on line 1 they had to expand wilson yard which takes the majority of the trains but from what I heard rumors they are looking at building a yard at kipling to accept these newer trains and I know alot of people will say arent they the same length correct they are but the trains on line 2 get uncoupled in order to fit in the yard and recoupled when leaving yard but the newer trains on line 1 can not be easily uncoupled and would be exposed to the elements when uncoupled
@@_seola_ they probably have a good 10 to 15 years left of service at the minimum by then they should of made a capable yard that stuff is usually pretty quick compared to these private companies that come in and take advantage of the government and know they can keep delaying and charge even more
@@destroyer5724 I've learned that some trains have a relatively smooth ride (other than the screeching on the elevated portion from midland to scarborough centre), while other trains are literally deafening for the entire ride.
Okay you have me a little happier about the Scarborough extension, especially considering the cost. Now let's hope it gets quickly built ( or at least without delays ) and is the start of other great transit in the east end!
That makes me happy to hear! I think things will be ok!
Honesty the reason why the SRT was so neglected is that the TTC never wanted it. The original streetcar plan was forcibly scrapped by the Ontario Government (by threat of removing TTC operational funding) to build the line we see here. It’s purpose was to show the value of the UTDC’s LRT/RT ICTS technology and less so rapid transit and I think that’s why the City of Toronto doesn’t like the damn thing.
Personally I think the SRT is adequate and like you said had lots of potential for expansion to areas that could use it like UTSC. However, because of how the service was commissioned it feels like the City and the TTC just wanted to can the whole thing as fast as possible so that they could build what they wanted and designed.
I used the SRT a lot when it opened. The trains did use the turning loop initially but changed to the current configuration because of high wear on the wheels.
And it was a two track system in Kennedy Station till they changed it to a 1 track.
The SRT was our gateway to Toronto 25 years ago for my friends and I. We'd drive to the town centre and SRT/Subway to all our haunts downtown, which was much cheaper, quicker, and above all easier than driving all the way. This personal connection makes it a bit sad to see it go, though a full subway connection will be far superior (if only there wasn't that service gap until the subway opens). :)
It really isn't "ok". It is being replaced with a three stop subway extension. The problems are:
1- the new stations are far apart. If you live or work anywhere between Lawrence and the Scarborough Town Center where the stops are proposed there is no way you can walk those distances (especially in our snow). Kennedy to Lawrence and STC to McCowan are just as far. You still need to take a bus anyway
2- the stop on the existing RT stops directly connected (almost in) the Scarborough Town Center. Connecting the mall and people living in the condos. The new station will be far from the mall. People going there to shop (anyone going there at Christmas or Boxing day will know what I mean) or people living in the connecting condos will have a long walk to the subway. There are also proposals to rebuild the entire area around the Scarborough Town Center to add around 25-30 new condo towers. This will be thousands of more people packing onto buses or needing to walk a long distance to this one station.
The RT is not "great" but connects better than the new three stop subway extension. We are already building the Eglinton LRT into Kennedy. It would be far better to just take out the existing RT tracks and replace them with LRT tracks and continue the LRT along the existing route. It would have it's own right away that doesn't interfere with traffic and the land and all infrastructure (lights, stations etc) are all already existing. Just need to swap the tracks. Would probably be far less expensive also.
Then going the other way out of Kennedy- going down Eglinton across to Morningside up to Sheppard could be the extension of the LRT. These routes would better connect the outer fringes and center core of Scarborough. But what would people in Scarborough know about what is needed.....guess the people that live in Etobicoke or downtown that never come or probably don't even know where Scarborough is would know better right?🤷♀
I agree with most of your points. The Line 2 extention will make it easier to go from Scarborough Town Center to Toronto, or to pass through Scarborough, but does a poor job connecting Scarborough.
I would disagree the new Stations are to far appart, in that the stretch between STC and the Hospital is all sprawl residential, and no station would get very high usage. But an LRT would have been the better choice, and could have offered a greatly extended service for the same price. Realistically, both could have been done, although the cost of Line 2 is the issue.
I live in Scarborough! People in Scarborough have to take buses, it’s a sprawly area and the nature of that is that you can’t put rail everywhere and if you do in the form of LRT it will not be fast enough for cross city travel anyways.
The subway station at the mall is not particularly far, especially compared to other similar connections in the region and I’m sure the mall can redevelop to better connect over the next several years.
@@RMTransit Subway station at McCowan may not seem particularly far to you but to someone with an arm load of stuff they bought at the mall that has to walk with thousands of other people through knee deep snow it is pretty far. Or ask someone that has to walk it everyday in rain, sleet and snow how far they think it is.
And sure the McCowan station to the Scarborough Town Center may not be "far" but if you live on a street like (picking a few streets at random)- Seminole, Meldazy or work any where near Progress, Corporate Drive, Milner or CTV building it is not close at all. That is a far walk especially in winter snow or rain. Most people would catch a bus to the station. What's the point of running a subway along McCowan if you still need a bus route along McCowan for people to get to the stops. Might as well keep the buses on McCowan and find a different route for the light rail. There is already an existing route and infrastructure along the existing RT route. With the money saved there it could be used to put in better LRT routes. Sure they can't be everywhere but would be more of them in better locations. The subway is three stops to nowhere that doesn't really serve all the people it passes very well. And does nothing for people further into Scarborough (out towards the zoo etc. money saved modifying the RT instead of a subway could be used to extend Sheppard all the way down to the zoo or an LRT along Sheppard.)
The subway along McCowan doesn't service the people that live along McCowan very well. They still need a bus. And it takes away service from people that live along the RT route.
@@pacman3556 I am sure as with most other major malls the subway serves there will be an indoor connection. Needing to still run buses is fine, multiple levels of service are good. If the subway stops are too close together its no longer rapid transit!
I always found the SRT cramped and loud. (The loudest screech is the subway looping into Union and out. ) 🙂
Yea 120db
I took the SRT exactly once (well, one round trip) back in 1988, and I remember not being all that impressed as I thought it slow when compared to the subway I had transferred from… though my memory may be a little bit off considering that was 34 years ago!? At least it was more modern (at the time, for back then there were still a few of the original red subway trains still in service). I seem to remember it being pretty expensive to build, but I believe it was because this was Ontario technology that the province wanted to highlight. At least it's still around (for another few years anyway), unlike other Ontario technology (*cough cough* ICON Computer *cough cough*).
Thanks for mentioning the ICON computer, that system hardly ever gets a note even on computer history sites. Had an awesome time exploring the ins and outs of them in high school, way ahead of the clueless teachers.
@@haweater1555 I had hours of fun on my high school's lone ICON computer we students had access to. It was my introduction to a mouse (well, trackball). My friend got bonus points on an essay in 1985 because it was the first "computer" printed submission his teacher had ever received, even though the pagination was all messed up (WYSIWYG it was not!). I particularly enjoyed the "Voyagers" game of using the trackball to move your canoe through the waterways of Rupert's Land, and the drawing package was pretty sweet as well.
My then brother-in-law was a signals maintainer for the SRT in it’s early days and explained to me the computer system that controlled train movement. Pretty sophisticated for it’s time.
It may have been expensive to built at the time but Vancouvers built a lot of SkyTrain since for pretty reasonable prices!
Perhaps an ICON system running QNX has been controlling the SRT all this time?
Lawrence East will be by the hospital that's going to be interesting 🤔 I'm close to that station.
Great video I do love all the construction upgrade for transit.
There are some plans to keep the corridor and stations, and I hope they do. I really like the architecture and vibe of the stations, and it would be a shame to lose them. Even though they'll no longer serve rapid transit, it would be nice to keep them. People have suggested turning some of them into farmer's markets and community centres. The corridor, especially the elevated section would be neat if it were turned into an elevated park/trail like the high line in New York City, or a bike path.
Isn't the main reason for replacement that the ICTS tech was pushed down to TTC by the UTDC (back when it was developed - they needed customers and being a government project had the ability to force some agencies to use it) and the TTC never liked this hence why they always planned to replace it with tech that they prefer and also integrates better with the rest of the system?
Are there short-term plans for bus replacement between Kennedy and Scarborough, during the time period when there is no train?
I heard there were plans to use the right of way as a BRT
Yes, that’s part of why the busway is being built!
Suggestion.
I think you should have explained the SRT closure details right off of the bat.
And not just assume your viewers all knew about it.
I think you should have summarized or linked to details of that closure.
This is the first I had heard of it.
And I had to run around the net to find out what it was you were talking about.
Otherwise, I rally liked your video.
☮
Umm, that loop WAS used for the SRT for several years. It did however cause lots of wear problems which is why the switch was retrofitted at Kennedy resulting in a shrinking of the platform forever limiting the system to 4 car trains (it was built with 6 cars in mind).
Yes, and it let to lots of derailing fairly unsurprisingly’
@@RMTransit I wouldn't call it 'lots'. My dad actually was one of the first operators of the SRT so I fondly recall it. While there were some derailments, by far the killer was wear on the wheels and the rails.
FWIW wear on wheels has been a constant problem for the SRT (along with power unit failures)
The fact is, Kennedy was in a REALLY bad spot for the SRT technology. The original plan for Kennedy station was always that the subway would be extended, if you look at sat maps of the area you can see remnants of the right of way to this day passing through neighborhoods (those right of ways were sold to adjacent homeowners for $1 a few decades ago)
The decision to move the line to a light rail line following the rail corridor cemented the line to be in trouble. The plan (after the thought of running streetcars was dropped) was to support 6 car trains, which is evidenced by stations like Midland that have a longer than needed guideway, but a 'roof' over only part of it.
The loop was put in because with the original streetcar plan, and the 6 car SRT plan, there wasn't enough room at Kennedy for a switch. Moving to the SRT technology meant there was an opening to putting in a switch, which they eventually did because of the loop wear issues. That of course cemented the line to only ever supporting at most 4 cars (originally the line ran both 2 car and 4 car trains, depending on time of day).
The limitation to 4 cars in the end didn't matter since the manufacturer stopped making the Mark I cars, and the Mark II cars that replaced them wouldn't make it around the underpass north of Ellesmere.
innards
Thanks Reece. I always liked traveling on the SRT. Keep in mind though that the loop was originally used, when it opened, and was LOUD. They stopped using it due to the noise and the damage to the trains. Oh well. I’ll miss it too…
When it's gone I'll believe it!! Awsome video!! I was a child when the SRT came out and it was pretty cool traveling from Kennedy to STC lots of The cities art work is on that line especially around Midland. 👌
My favorite memory of the SRT is in the 1980s and seeing the countless Bick's pickles vats sitting in the open air .. always wondered if any birds made their nests nearby
3:03 About the noise tho, as a resident of nearby Scarborough Centre condo tower, it was incredibly loud. New move-in would definitely notice, but you’d get used to it soon. It’s also very loud on board. However, it’s still stupid to tear a down a subway and leave Scarborough no mass transit.
LRT is packed every morning. If you don't get on at Scarborough Centre, you have to wait at least 2 or 3 trains to get on.
I vaguely remember that when it was originally built, it was supposed to be a temporary thing. The plan was to extend the main subway line, and this was a temporary stopgap to the nightmares of building a subway in Scarborough. Last I heard was the SRT was falling apart (they didn’t want to spend money on something they knew was supposed to be temporary) and that was costing more than it was worth.
What I find sad is that the subway ISN’T being extended, so the people who live in that area and use the stops are bereft.
The sound of a train taking a tight turn is urban music to my ears. It's just as much a part of the urban landscape as ducks are to the countryside.
I don't know why Scarborough doesn't secede from Toronto. I don't even live in Scarborough, but it's perfectly clear to me that that entire third of the city has been severely underserved in terms of public transit. Etobicoke has more stops and it's even getting the Finch line. What's Scarborough gotten in 50 years? It's not getting a new subway line so much as it's getting it swapped out for its LRT line, and with fewer stations.
Great points. Potential of subway extension is indeed huge for Scarborough residents that's rapidly expanding. Hopefully Sheppard extension will also build as subway as it will carry a big chunk ridership from the north east side.
Also, with the Go and ttc shared rider initiatives, this will help to make up the lost RT lines (Lawrence and Ellesemere?).
Bus way lines as of present is inconvenient but I hope the years of sacrifice will be worth it.
Finally found out the possible reason why you keep looking to your right so much from another UA-cam content provider. It was suggested that you likely have a screen to your right so that you can see the video going out. As I have said in other videos, I find it distracting when you look right so my suggestion is that you do what the other content provider did and that is put your viewing screen right next to or under your camera so that you can watch your screen with a small flick of your eyes instead of the noticeable look right. Food for thought because I really enjoy your informative videos and want to be able to listen without being distracted. Keep up the good work!!
"The trains are loud"
*BART laughing hysterically in the background*
You mean 'screaming hysterically atop a hill in East Oakland'
To anyone wondering why they don't just "upgrade it", there's a few reasons.
1) The tunnel between Ellesmere and Midland is too tight for modern trains which stops the city from being able to buy newer trains because they won't fit. Costs to upgrade the tunnel are in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
2) The SRT is a completely different system with different rolling stock, track requirements, maintenance facilities, and eliminating it allows them to the same facilities as other lines which makes services easier to complete.
However, the decision to replace it with a subway and not an LRT line is just stupid. People in Scarborough are going to have worse access to transit because they'll have fewer stations that they can use, so instead of a 15 minute LRT ride, they're looking at a 10 minute bus ride and a 10 minute subway ride. Typical planning guidelines say that most people will walk about 400 metres to a bus stop and yet the city is planning on having a 400 metre long bus terminal at Scarborough Centre because Subways! Subways! Subways! Not only that but the main reason people wanted a subway was because it would eliminate the transfer at Kennedy but if you look at the demand patterns and the anticipated ridership, it's pretty obvious that every other subway train will get short turned at Kennedy meaning people are going to have to transfer half of the time anyway.
Good points but for the newer trains they need to be the JFK Air Train Innovia Metro Because the current mark one trains used on the Scarborough rapid transit we're actually the prototype versions of those JFK Airport Air Train
But all of the stations are on major intersections where bus routes can be found? If you're taking the Lawrence Bus from the East (where most people are), it's a direct connection. If you're taking the Ellesmere bus, same idea. Really, the only people that lose here are those taking the Midland bus, but that can sorta be patched by having some Midland busses diverted to Scarborough Centre (unlikely to give them major time savings but hey, I'm not going to pull out all my hairs just to appease the riders of the midland bus). My only caveat is that some stations, especially Lawrence East, are extremely deep which could add transfer time, but that can easily counteract the fact that you don't have to travel down 3 stories to transfer.
Do Vancouver's Mark 2 and Mark 3 SkyTrains fit in the tunnel?
@@lemonofish869 No, they don't unfortunately. None of the new innovia trains would fit. Personally, I think the city should have just expanded the tunnel 20 years ago when they first looked into it.
@@Absolute_Zero7 So, the LRT line would have had 7 stations with about 47,000 people living within walking distance of a station. The subway plan has four stations with about 24,000 people living within walking distance of a station. That means that the subway plan will force about 23,000 people to take a bus to a subway station, so for every person who benefits from the new subway station, there's another who has to take the bus but who would have been living within walking distance if they built the LRT.
Not to mention, the LRT plan would have been a lot less disruptive in terms of construction. So Scarborough is going to spend the next 8 years being ripped up, massive bus detours, traffic delays, all so that they can have a worse transit line but it's a subway.
Just rode it today. The decline is obvious. It will not be missed. The roar from the washboarded railhead even on tangent track is deafening.
So why is it okay to remove a transit line without replacement until the new line opens in 7+ years?
I’m ok with the way things will end up, not how we’ll get there!
hey Buddy, nice video, but I think it might lacks a bit of maps inside of it, as it is difficult for a non Torontonian ( Im French, it's even harder lol :D ) to understand the how and what of the situation without a visual help :)
"The trains are loud, particularly around Kennedy Station"
ooooh, boy. If people are complaining about that noise, they really should never come to London, the 'Tube' as we call it is incredibly loud over long stretches at times!
Staying on London though, based upon the video it seems Toronto may do well with a DLR (Docklands Light Railway) we have in London too, an automated very frequent service of mostly smaller units ferrying people about endlessly.
The tube is absolutely louder yeah
@@RMTransit I'm only in London once every few month, so I'm not there often enough for it to offend me, but some of the stretches the Northern & Picadilly lines are just terrible, so much so the drivers are able to ask for ear defenders if they work on the noisier of the lines. I've no idea how the hearing of regular commuters can stand up to some of the noises!
I remember using the LRT a day or two after it opened and I often used the LRT to get to the Scarborough Town Centre.
Hello. It would be also if you did a video on MTA Commuter Rail in the New York and New Jersey area. Thanks!
I remember when the premier announced the funding for this technology. It was supposed to be a showcase for the future of transportation and all Metor Toronto had to do was shut up and take it. There were many people questioning the lack of expansion capabilities as well.
But they had a nice mock up at the CNE for a couple years that you could walk through and even press the emergency strip. And in all fairness the emergency strip and well known Try-tone warning for the closing doors was prototyped on it
When the SRT first started the loop at Kennedy WAS used!!! At Kennedy there used to be TWO platforms on separate tracks. one to empty the train and one to load it...for those wanting to get on you'd have to wait first for the train to empty, then wait for it to go around the loop, and finally stop at the loading platform when you could finally get on. To save time, it was changed to platforms on both sides of the train, and both sides of the train would open at once so that people would get off on one side and enter on the other side of the train at the same time.
Another thing you failed to mention with the two sets of escalators is between them is the bus level...not everyone who rides the SRT is using the subway, some are using buses (I've regularly done this)...it would be silly if people had to go all the way down to the subway level, and then go back up to the bus level, especially if they had to use the stairs!
I was a long time west end Toronto resident. The city had lots of opportunities to expand the subways during the 50s and 60s and even later. Toronto loves making "plans"....waterfront, TTC, roads, but has really put very few dollars into actually new construction. In the 1950s there was a 2% TTC tax added to the municipal taxes for new construction. Well the politicians thought they could confuse people by reducing taxes when the 2% surtax was eliminated. So subway extension had years of non building. Imagine if the city had continued to build every year, the city would have lots of subways (or some sort of right a ways) and a lot less expense that the current cost.
A few things:
- They definitely should add-in a fourth subway station at Eglinton/Brimley
- Crosstown East should be built in tandem with this extension as a common tunneled section could be built for both between Kennedy and the potential new interchange at Brimley with a planned underground station at Midland/Egltinton. Falmouth stop could be scrapped.
- Perhaps continue the tunneled Crosstown East as far as the budget permits. Eglinton GO, Eglinton/Kingston, Guildwood GO, the West Hill triangle, Highland Creek crossing and the UTSC access point are all points where grade separation should be implemented. Since that's roughly 60% of the line anyways just keep it underground/elevated the whole way methinks.
- instead of jogging Crosstown East to Malvern Centre, extend Line 2 to Malvern (even towards the Zoo) via the rail corridor northeast of Sheppard/McCowan.
I remember liking all the noises the srt used to make when I was a kid on it idk I always found it cool to ride on it and useful when my grandma or mom would take me there
Lawrence East and Scarborough Centre were among the most-used stations on the Scarborough LRT. Now that the line is decommissioned, the TTC is going to have to work overtime to keep the service at the same level
I'm not Canadian, I've never been to Toronto and, obviously I've never used the Scarborough SRT but it seems a more than a reasonable mas transit system that could have been upgraded (not to mention, better maintained over the years ) instead of replaced, especially when the replacement of a 7.8km extension with only 3 stations has a cost of $5.5 Billions (for now,, we all know what happens when you start actually building it) - an amount that in normal places is more than enough for a complete line with multiple stations.
I took the SRT for many years. The noise issue is not just on the turn into/from Kennedy Station. It's impossible to have a conversation with the person beside you without yelling while the train is moving. Also, if memory serves there is only one narrow escalator that leads from the bus bays at Kennedy Station down to the subway platform. Most reasonably able-bodied people use the much wider staircase because it's faster, or because it happens to be closer to them when coming down from the RT platform.
Here I am watching this at the end of June, 2024 - 21 months after the video was posted. The LRT was shut down a year ago (July 2023) after a derailment. The Eglinton Crosstown line is still not open, with no announced date for it to enter service, and no plan for when to announce the date.
The subway extension is _scheduled_ to open "between 2029 and 2030", but I doubt you'll find anyone outside of the project management team who believes that they'll meet that schedule.
My family moved to Scarborough in August of 1968, 3 months after the Victoria Park and Warden subway stations opened. Other than 1.5 years in a downtown Toronto apartment, I've lived here ever since. The only still-operational rail transit expansion in the intervening FIFTY SIX YEARS is the 4km subway extension from Warden to Kennedy Station (which opened in 1980 - a mere 44 years ago).
BTW: Population of Scarborough in 1968 was approximately 300,000. Today, it's about double that, at 629,000.
I remember if you timed it right you could run up the three flights of stairs from line one and just catch the line three train as it was getting ready to leave.
More importantly for right now though who do we have to talk with to get the shepherd line extended to the new Shepherd station?
I've taken line 3 and even on the train and even on straight track the noise was piercingly loud.
That subway is more like an amusement park roller coaster. Good that they are updating it!
Funny how this guy knows better than anybody else in the world actually working with the stuff. It's impressive.
One thing I wanted to dispute in this great summary video is that the SRT is also really noisy inside the train cars themselves. It isn't just as an observing commuter on platform hearing the loud noise it makes around turns. Inside it sounds very rickety and it's impossible to have a phone conversation with someone because they get drowned out from the train noise. Even when playing music, when I use noise cancellation you still hear a substantial amount of noise.
Having tried to make a call on other subway lines I don't really think the SRT is uniquely loud
@@RMTransit When did you use the SRT last? to me it's much noisier vs. Line 1 or Line 2 when I'm on the phone.
Bury everything and convert the old tracks to active transport corridors 👏👏👏👏
I grew up at Midland and Eglinton and remember when the SRT opened (heck, I have vague childhood memories of Kennedy being opened). My parents are still in the area, and it’s exciting to visit and see the changes.
I don’t think it was possible to use the SRT corridor to extend the Line 2; the existing Line 2 terminus would need to make an impossibly sharp nearly 90 degree turn.
I also don’t know how feasible it would’ve been to run the Line 2 above ground between Warden and Kennedy. I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen it in use, but that was a pretty active freight train corridor when I was a kid.
It’s not impossible to swing it back, and if it meant rebuilding Kennedy that would still only be one underground station
@@RMTransitI don’t think it would be worth the effort. You already outlined the great potential of the area around Scarborough General, making the idea of running the 2 along the SRT route seem pointless.
That is the CN Geco sub which has been long abandoned i believe
@@stinkyroadhog1347 yeah, even though the crossing lights on Kennedy are still there, I don’t think they’ve been used in ages. But when I was a kid, around the time Kennedy Station was opened, there was train traffic on that stretch. Very sloooow traffic, I recall; my dad would loop around St. Clair, Midland, and Eglinton to avoid it.
It's really a shame because Scarborough deserves better than that! What they really should've done was simply extend Line 2 to Scarborough WAYYYY back when they were implementing Line 3. Not only would it have saved $$$, but it would've probably been way less expensive. Which means the city could've extended a subway to Mississauga, Richmond Hill (earlier) and even Markham!
It gives those people another alternative to the GO Transit for not just S'Borough, but for the aforementioned places except for Sauga (unless the Milton line counts).
I am from Hong Kong. We always build a railway with high rises above the station so the ridership is guaranteed. The stations in the video look nice (not that bad, just that maybe more frequent service is ideal, the interchange is not bad at all, they are close enough, just 3min escalator travel) and if more shops are added to the station and residential high rises are built above the station, I am sure the whole line will be packed with people. I have no idea of America but an apartment near the subway station/ LRT station is like 10/10 for me, much better than a house which you need to walk a distance say 10min to the nearest bus station🤔
Do you guys love smaller apartments near the subway station more or larger houses with a distance to the bus station?
From my limited (and American) experience, we handle transit wrong. Developments alongside stations are delayed forever in weird land deals, leaving stations surrounded by wasteland, or anything that actually gets built ends up being ultra-premium high end condos so there is no lower or middle housing in any place to get the benefits while the wealthy residents get parking garages and drive anyhow.
Thanks for reminding me about this, I've never really lived in Scarborough meaning I've actually never rode the Line 3 SRT before. My goal is to take a ride through the whole line at least once before it's gone.
I use to take the take it to Lawrence East everybody for school. Well, either the RT or the 57 Midland as my school was at Midland and Lawrence. That was 23+ years ago now.
I love how Blue the trains are. It's such a shame this is gone
The only thing I'll miss it the unique sound of that inverter and AC motor. I wonder how much it costs to get my hands on one. R.I.P SRT
In Shanghai, there's also a condemed elevated metro branch which I belive is in a similar situation - the section between Dongchuan Road and Minghang Development District of Line 5. Line 5 was built at a time when rail transit expansion was overregulated by the central goverment. Instead of aquiring the permission, the local authority just built it in the name of "elevated tramway".
The line opend in 2003, running 17.2 km on viaducts from Xinzhuang to Minghang Development District. To minimize costs, the platforms were built short, only enough for four car trains of 78 meters long. This constrasts to six or eight car trains, up to 140 to 185 meters long, found elsewhere in the system. The signalling was based on German PZB technology, without functionality of automatic train operation.
From 2013 to 2018, the line was extended from Dongchuan Road to Fengxian Xinchen. During the construction, the existing section got a complete resignalling. CBTC, platform doors and GoA3 automation (driverless but attended) were put into service. To accommodate for new six car trains, platforms from Xinzhuang to Dongchuan Road were lengthened. Due to space constraint, however, platform extension was deemed impossible for the remaining section between Dongchuan Road and Minghang Development District. When the extension opened in 2018, new six car trains run from Xinzhuang to Fengxian Xinchen, while old four car trains run as a shuttle between Dongchuan Road and Minghang Development District.
This created a problem for commuters along the newly created shuttle service, as they had to take an additional transfer at Dongchuan Road. The problem was solved in 2020 when the shuttle service was replaced by direct service to Xinzhuang. But it created a new problem: now the trunk from Xinzhuang and Dongchuan Road was served by four and six car trains alternatedly, reducing the capacity.
Eventually, a new fully underground metro, numbered Line 23, broke ground earlier this year. When it is complete, it will create an alternative route from Minghang Development Zone to the center city. The four car trains of Line 5 will be retired then. The elevated, four-car only section of line 5 from Dongchuan Road and Minghang Development Zone is to go with the old trains. And new underground stations will be built near existing ones.
The noisy part of the SRT is not just that Kennedy curve, it was also Scarborough Centre to Midland. If you've ever been to Wonderland, you may remeber The Great Canadian Mindbuster. That was like the SRT in comparison.
EDIT: I was also in agreement with you on refurbishing the SRT with new cars and advanced technology that aligns better with SkyTrain which would have allowed for extensions beyond Kennedy and McCowan and at least gave south and deep (east) Scarborough something.
HI rm. Pls can you make a 903 bus video pls.
Please make a video about 903 TTC bus please
I live on eglington I don’t mind the RT because I live on the Bellamy route and usually I can backtrack to Kennedy and take the RT to the Scarborough town centre instead of waiting 30 + minutes in the cold for the Bellamy 9 bus them getting rid of the RT isn’t a massive problem for me personally but it is going to be rough in our winters . The go train station at the corner is a third option and it has those warming things at the platforms .
Yes the infamous Bellamy 9Non-existant bus route that used to travel from Victoria Park Station all the way up to Neilson Rd. & Passmore Ave. Do recall waiting 70 minutes or more for the bus in the wintertime...lol
Thank you for well thought out, non-hyperbolic commentary.
Just from personal experience, the SRT is pretty loud going west between STC and Midland station.
I think the ultimate demise for the SRT is just the lack development at STC. When the SRT was built it was envisioned that it would help spur STC into a downtown like area with a lot of housing and office space. The amount of office space at STC since the SRT opened has pretty much been flat while residental development has been moving along. It's becoming more and more like a vertical suburb which means people go away from the area during the day instead what the SRT was suppose to do which was to bring people into STC. A more vibrant STC would have possibly demanded extensions of to other places in Scarborough which could have saved it in the long run.
What about replacing it with BRT? BRT costs less to build and maintain than extending line 2.
The reason is simple - SRT was old 80s technology that didn't quite work out. The trains were supposed to be driverless, but TTC union forced very expensive changes to add a cab/seat for transit operator to do next to nothing in. Plus with technology being too outdated - it was too expensive to keep and expensive to tear down.
Linear induction technology was a poor decision.
Omggg so much memories! I hated those escalators and stars lol
I love SRT because we can always see lovely pigeons cleaning the platforms.
When I was a kid, I thought the SRT was a recommisioned mining train. The ride was loud and rough, and was through the industrial wasteland of Toronto. I'll never forget the "rotten cabbage" smell at Midland station from the adjacent paper recycling plant.
Any plans for a video on Munich's transit? They have a fantastic genuine Ubahn network for a city of its size, a super extensive S-bahn to the suburbs and surrounding villages that is also useful as a quasi-metro to get around parts of the urban core, and a good tram network to boot.
Germany >> Canada
I seem to remember when I was younger that the Loops used to be used.
The SRT is so loud that I'm convinced I might have developed mild hearing damage from the screeching of the train. It really makes taking it a bad experience and doesn't incentivize transit use
My main gripe with the Bloor 2 Line is the sheer duration of travel from end to end, and same with the Yonge-University Line 1. In an ideal scenario Id love to see them dig an additional tunnel for both lines 1 & 2 but only connect to every 3rd station on the lines (except through downtown) so it can offer an express service in parallel to the existing lines. This would then be similar to some of the lines in NYC that run from the Bronx through Manhattan and into Brooklyn where they have 4 tracks in some stations to allow local and express trains.
The good ol memories of the RT line. A relic of the past.
The Detroit People Mover will be in the running on bidding on the SRT scraps, parts, reaction rail, maintenance tools, etc.
They sold the same system to BC Translink and they ran with it ,world's largest automated system in Vancouver
I just saw an article about a new hovercraft service for Toronto to St. Catharines. Would be cool to get a video on it!
Couldn't Toronto have just bought some of Vancouver's Mark II trains (since the SkyTrain is building new Mark Vs soon anyway) to upgrade the SRT?
Obviously, I mean on top of upgrading the stations for accessibility and so forth.
yes we could have and it would have been a lot cheaper, Vancouver even offered to give us the trains for free. We can blame the voters in Scarborough for this mess and expense because Rob Ford promised them subways iunstead
The radius of some curves is too tight, so they would need to be rebuilt to allow Mk.2 cars.
I like your sweater! I'm watching from my lab at SFU right now!
I used the SRT semi-regularly over the past couple of years while living in Toronto, and found it a fascinating little system. My inner foamer was a particular fan of being able to stand at the back and watch the tracks (and passing trains) disappear into the horizon line, which is a pretty novel thing on a metro system, at least here in the UK where I can only think of the DLR in London that has similar.
There's no denying it was incredibly dated though, especially the rather ugly brown brick station at Kennedy, which is far from a pleasant place to transfer. I guess it was a fittingly old-school way to reach Scarborough for the reason I needed to travel - picking up cassette tapes I was ordering from a factory out there! A true 1980s timewarp. 😅
I have ridden this line exactly twice, during a visit here in Toronto back in 2017. It was not very pleasant. The train was loud, especially through curves, and the sound is just painful to the ears.
I remember taking Line 3 (SRT as it was then called) from Bellamy/Lawrence in to downtown back in the mid-80s. Initially I took the Lawrence bus to Lawrence East, then Line 3 to Kennedy and thence downtown, reverse in the evening. After a while I changed the morning pattern -- the Line 3 trains were always jammed in the morning rush, so I might have to wait three or four trains to get on. So in the mornings I took the Bellamy bus in to Warden. Coming back home was no problem -- at Kennedy you were getting on to an empty train, so I took Line 3 / Lawrence bus home. It struck me that the SRT was a victim of its own success -- too many passengers. The platforms were big enough for six-car trains, I never saw why that wasn't done to increase passengers. But the TTC didn't invest in it, and so now the rolling stock is falling-apart and it has to go. (I don't remember it being all that loud in the 80s either -- I suspect age of the fleet added to the noise level).
Scarborough line is 120db between midland to Scarborough centre station
How about an Ellesmere GO station to connect with the Durham BRT. Also maybe keep the elevated part of SRT and extend it to Centennial/Malvern.
What's the name of the station at 8:57 and what's the railway adjacent to it down below?
Kennedy Station. Railway below is the Stouffville GO line that heads to downtown union. This is the terminus for SRT as it allows you to transfer to both GO and heavy rail underground.
Long ago there was a politician (or maybe it was his brother) who declared "Scarborough Deserves a Subway"
That seems to have been all the justification anyone needed to make this HUGE change.
Ultimately transit plans seem to be left to campaign strategists these days...
Yeah, noticed that.
I herd Translink even offered Toronto their old rolling stock as they upgraded to newer versions.
It's been 20 years since I last rode LRT. I think it's time for one last trip from Kipling, end to end
Can they extend Line 2 to Markham or AT LEAST to Steeles? I relied on the SRT to get to university, and having a subway line would've saved me so much time. It's so hard traveling from Markham to downtown. Sure there is the GO train but it can get pretty pricey. Markham needs more rapid transit 😭😭😭
I was shocked when you said that it's trains are the oldest although they look the best from every metro train I've seen in north America especially in Toronto
Lol
Newyork the wordt
It's not unfortunate.. the LRT sucks as someone who used to take it regularly.. it had the highest breakdown rate and is slow vs the new Scarborough subway line extension which will finally make Line 2 seamless from the Scarborough Town Centre to Kipling ..
I only ever took it just to go to Scarborough Town Centre.
I visited my sister who lives in the Greater Toronto area and being a public transport nerd, wanted to ride every type I saw. My niece took me on a short SRT ride, which seemed basic and not even as comfortable as the uncomfortable London DLR.
Being from scarborough, the trip to yonge and dundas was 1.5 hours vs 45 minutes if we had access to subway. I feel like people against better infrastructure (subways) in scarborough are just trying to gaslight minorities into thinking they need something less sustainable. As if scarborough with the multitude of minorities and immigrants shouldn't be a part of toronto. That's not a sentiment shared by just me but a lot of people here. The community would benefit from better infrastructure due to investments made afterwards. We are getting subway extensions in richer areas with less push back, not necessarily with more potential ridership too. Do we really want people to choose driving as the main option to get to downtown? Are we not sick of all the traffic. People from scarborough would rather drive down. The point of a subway is to reduce traffic.
I'm happy you are covering this, really draws more attention to an important life-changing situation for a lot of people.
If there was a way to keep the SRT and extend the subway further into malvern it wouldve made a lot more sense. I think the original plan was that, with a stop around centenary hospital. Taking the bus around those areas are just grueling. I like that mccowan and Sheppard has one coming up as well.
TTC should keep the SRT until the subway extension is completed. Traffic around that area will be horrendous when that line closes and shuttle bases are used.
I have used many trains, metros, etc. in the world and to be honest: I never had such a noisy transport. I was shocked. You weren't even able to communicate to your seat neighbour. And this really makes it unpleasant to use.