PM25MV Mill CNC Conversion Testing
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- Опубліковано 9 вер 2024
- Testing of the Precision Matthews PM25MV mill CNC conversion kit from ArizonaVideo99. The stepper motors are Leadshine closed loop 283 oz.in., smaller than what are commonly used, but with plenty of power. The mill acceleration is 30in/s^2. LinuxCNC is the controller and the Pico Systems Universal Stepper Controller is the pulse generator. Here we test the backlash and feedrates, and to demonstrate available power, track the following error from the servo loop while loading the head with additional weight. The PM25MV is similar to the Grizzly G0704 and the Titan TM25V mills, so this video may have wider interest.
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#KvvCreates, #DIYCNC - Наука та технологія
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After using the CNC converted mill for a few months, this is an update to a previous test video. The wiring is still a mess, but the mill was pressed in operation to meet a work deadline. Two related videos that I plan to make are on extracting following error information from the Leadshine Easy Servo motors and another on cleaning up the wiring
This video got me to use same steppers on my diy mill and thanks for that!
And yes it uses so little power that my system including Makita router is at 250W in wood and 450W with metal machining spindle.
I just received one of these mills and will be setting up soon. Thank you for posting this video.
Thank you for saying so. I'd be glad to help in anyway I can. I checked out your videos. My Dad rode an older R1100 and my wife and I worked on a Van's RV9. Always great to hear from people with similar interests. Wishing you the best of success in the new year!
@@kentvandervelden
The K1600 has been sitting since May or June of last year due to a safety recall BMW isn't able to address at this time.
:( so I am on the ST1300 (reliable Honda) these days
@@kentvandervelden
Until I clean up and organize the garage a little better, the mill will remain in the crate. A lot of things are in transition with a new job (January 17 start date) and new year. I believe I'll have more personal time to work on some projects.
I certainly appreciate the offer of helping to get started with the mill, thank you! Its been nearly 30 years since I've ran one. Back in those days I was a programmer (C++) who wrote for a CAD/CAM software company, and I began working directly with some manufacturers who used the software. They taught me "pattern making" and I learnt 3-axis machining from them before learning other machining types (tool and die, mold making, etc).
@@RobertLBarnard Our experience overlap some. My first fulltime job was writing components for a CAD-like system. Geometry translators and simplifiers for a few CAD packages to convert to some in-house software. That was a great job.
Glad to help if I can, just send an email. Best of luck with the new job!
Kent,
Very good video. That’s some real intense testing you did on the motors. I look forward to more videos.
Merci pour cette super vidéo.
Thank you for a warm comment :)
Thanks for the video that's really cool
Thank you
Excellent Video!!!!
A huge thank you to you sir! Reviewing this year, this little mill has been critical to my business this year. I never could have predicted that.
One of the weak spots on these machines is the way surfaces and gibs. In many cases the castings are not seasoned so they can warp slightly and since they make no effort to fit anything in china the mating surfaces can have very poor contact. They might also nit have proper lubrication channels or grooves. This can affect accuracy/repeatability and surface finish as much or more than the ball screw backlash and it can have a huge impact on how much of a cut you can take with getting chatter. Gib adjustment is also critical. The slides should move freely and easily without the screws engaged but without more than a couple of 10ths of play. If the ways are not accurately machined and fitted this is very difficult to achieve and you will either have excessive chatter or very high loads on the steppers if you need to tighten the gibs to stop chatter. These machines are essentially kits that need an extra step of scraping and hand fitting to perform well.
Thank you for taking the time to write this. My machine reaches that level of performance. What is your opinion on replacing the dovetails with linear rails? This seems popular, put probably is covering up the problems you point out.
I am having a hell of a time getting mine adjusted for less backlash. It seemed alright at first. I had the z stick and then drop into a Damascus part yesterday twice and brake 2 bits. I will probably tear down and scrape but is there any videos or good tutorials on adjusting the gibs etc? I feel like I have to be missing something simple. I've got a $500 lathe converted that is insanely accurate but with the pm-25 cnc I am failing. Y gibs are tight but I can see it shift going from + to -... Help
@@DanBrock use a 10ths dial test indicator and start with the Gibson loose. Shake the slide from side to side and measure the play. Gradually tighten the gib (assuming a single tapered gib) until the side to side play is 2 or 3 10ths. If you were to disconnect the feed screw the slide should still move freely. It should not feel tight. If you have poor surface contact it will be impossible to find a gib setting that provides both free movement and minimal play. In that case scraping is the only answer.
@@sblack48 Thank you. I did find the machine screw for the Z feed screw was not tight (well, tight but the washer was smashed in so it was bottomed out). I'll try the rest of your procedure. Thanks again!
I've been researching @Rv4 Guy's specs and going to give it a try. Sliding the assemblies so easily would be amazing but seems pretty far away. I had an Industrial Hobbies mill and lapped ways during conversion. Sounds easier and safer, but probably not as good. Would be nice to have Rv4 Guy's opinion on that. Don't need my mill right now, can take my time, and will replace spindle bearings as well.
Closed loop lets you get away with smaller motors, as you don't need the overkill.
+MattOGormanSmith Absolutely, the position and current control loops give better torque density and a measure of position loss. Thank you for commenting.
Did you swap out the X/Y-axis coupler shafts to fit the 1/4" diameters or did it come with the kit? Also, do you have your servo error code on github or otherwise publicly shared?
The replacements I used were from eBay. My link is invalid now, but looks like there are many alternatives. On the kit that I received the Y-axis coupler needed to be tapped, so be careful of the size you order. The code is available at the following link. Let me know if there is a function missing that you want. I didn't implement many (if any) of the write functions. I was hoping that the fault latch could be reset by software but there is no such command in the Leadshine software. However, instead of cycling the power, one can toggle the enable line to reset the latched fault. Let me know if I can be of any other help.
github.com/kentavv/leadshine_decode
I really want to convert my pm25 Chinese clone yo cnc. How much do you think it will cost today ?
Ignoring tooling and computer, and reusing rough estimate...
Conversion kit: $800
Pulse generating control board: $200
Motors and drivers and power supply: $1000
I would budget $2500 for the conversion parts, and 100 hours. Add $700 if using servos. Similarly, add $700 if replacing the spindle motor. Budget high so there are no surprises.
kent....did you use a pasticmaterial like biplast on the guides for friction-reduction?
Hi Alexander, until you mentioned biplast I'd never heard of it. All I did was clean and add way oil to the standard ways. Best wishes
Do you mill cold roll steel? How does she run? Did you have to cutt the saddle to install the kit?
Nice machine!
Cutting cold rolled steel works. Keep the gibs tight. I actually prefer cutting steel over aluminum. Steel does not gum up, the chips are informative, and threads are tough. To make life easier I order 1215 when I have an option, which is a little bit cheating. I use only carbide tooling. Wishing you the best of success!
Hi Kent, this is impressive. Could you let me know where I can buy the Conversion kit? You said it is from ArizonaVideo99, but it is just a youtube channel.
I sell direct with PayPal.
Its OK to email me at davedaxx1@yahoo.com.
Thank you Dave.
@@ArizonaVideo99 hello, how much is it?
@@GreyGuzman $749
@@ArizonaVideo99 what about the stepper motor and control board for LinuxCNC?
Is it suitable for iron engraving sculpture design engraving.
Closed loop stepper motors could work well for the lateral movement of an engraving machine. As would servo and open loop stepper motors. Each have their advantages. First finalize the engraving machine mechanics, then determine the requirements for the motors, and finally select motors.
Hi Kent , How did you find working with david over the kit, ? I have tried to get hold of David to order a kit up, Great video keep them coming
+dave cox Hi Dave. I really liked working with David. He delivered a great kit and was very generous with his time after the sale. I've written to a couple other folks who recently ordered kits to check on their experience. I think David is running a one man shop, and there are many burdens that go with that. How long ago did you contact him?
It was around 3 weeks ago but heard nothing since, i have sent him a few messages through u tube but nothing hope he is ok, its a long shot but see if you can message him and see if he is ok
It may be that he does receive notifications of UA-cam comments. I just finished writing to him and mentioned your name (hope that's OK.) The only email address I have is the one that he gives to others, davedaxx1@yahoo.com. He's also on CNC Zone as ArizoniaVideo99. Best wishes, Kent
Hi Dave, I heard from David. He said there were changes to the PM25 that required redesigning of the kit. He saw your letter but was swamped finishing the parts. You'll surely hear from him soon. Best wishes, Kent
That's great mate as long as he is ok i was worried something had happened to him,
Yes that was the last conversation we had he was asking over what model i had and never had the mill so couldn't answer any questions.
I am curious, Are you able to share the .ini file and .hal files of your setup? thanks. MikeK
Absolutely, they are on my GitHub page. github.com/kentavv/kvvcreates/tree/master/linuxcnc
Sir please tell me
What is the difference between cnc milling machine and conventional vertical cnc milling machine
Hi, not sure the difference you mean. "Cnc milling machine" could be vertical or not I suppose.. Of course, what I show here is a hobby machine and the industrial cnc machines are far more capable in terms of speed, power, rigidity, and all else. I hope this helps in some way. Ask if not.
@@kentvandervelden
Sir
I mean
I want to use fanuc controller on conventional milling machine , will it success or not
I hope you got my point
Sorry, I have no experience with doing that. It may be possible, but unless the proper documentation is available, and the controller is well abstracted from the controlled hardware, the challenge may be great. Fascinating idea though. Keep searching, good chance someone has tried on UA-cam.
@@kentvandervelden
Sir
I'm from India and here one of my friend is using cnc conventional milling machine so I want buy but I'm fearing n my friend don't help me
Pleasure to meet you. Maybe agree to purchase contingent on training? I used to work with people in Hyderabad, at the DuPont Knowledge Center.
The link provided is a YT site -- no kits there. Is there a better link? Would you still use this conversion now? I can see the Pro Cut CNC for this mill procutcnc.com/product/pm25mv-cnc-mill-conversion-kit/ Which is better?
That channel is by the man who makes the kits. Contact him at "David Clements ". I'm happy with the conversion. If starting over today, I would ask if the mill is large enough before which kit is best, but my needs have changed. I have no experience with the ProCut kit, but it looks similar in appearance and price. I would contact both sources, and let the responses guide the selection. Best of success to you!
@@kentvandervelden Thank you!
Thanks for sharing! I am thinking of embarking on the same journey. I am going to try the clearpath nema23 servos. Would love to know if anyone found a real nice vise option for this setup? I'd like to maintain as much Y travel as possible.
Hi Anthony. I'd like to know how the Clearpath servos turn out for you as would I'm sure many other people.
I've look at three vises, the 5" CNC vise from Tormach, the 4" CNC vise from Glacern, and the 4" D40 machinist vise from Kurt. I don't have a recommendation, but I'll point out a few observations. I only have experience with the Kurt D40. Hopefully others will add their experiences.
Kurt D40: This is the vise that I have. It does not seem to be the same quality as the D688 that I previously had, but it's OK. The opens to just slightly over 4" so it accepts 4" stock. There is a large flange that goes around the vise, which causes 1/2" or so of Y travel to be lost. On the PM25, there are also screws holding the Z-way cover that interfere. If those are not removed, an additional 1/2" will be lost. If using the bolt holes, you're mounting location is limited to the middle T-slot (on the PM25) and that's not the exact best location for maximizing Y travel. I've considered removing the flange in the back... and may still do it. I've also considered mounting the vise to a ground plate, to give more options for mounting. A 4" vise is pretty narrow, but I've used various extensions to better support longer materials. Solid models are available from Kurt for setups in CAD and CAM.
Tormach 5" CNC vise. Being a "CNC vise" it does not have the flange, but only opens to 4.125". I don't remember, but I think this vise also has a thicker fixed jaw than the D40, so while the removal of the flange increases travel, the travel and opening is reduced because of the thick fixed jaw. Solid models are available from Tormach for setups in CAD and CAM.
Glacern 4" CNC vise. I really want to like this vise. Similar positives as the Tormach vise, and the Glacern opens to an amazing 5.25". However, like the Tormach, has a thick fixed jaw which will limit the Y travel some.
I'm satisfied with the Kurt D40, but if ordering one today, I would strongly consider the Glacern, and consider how rotating the vise long ways with the table might help. Remember, with all these vises, the jaw plates can be moved around. I often move the plates to the outside, and the stock rests on top of the jaws, pressed between the jaw plates. this provides more support and increases the clamping range. Just limits some operations slightly.
You may also consider other work holding methods such as fixture plates and wide step jaws compatible with the vise you select. With my 4" vise, I often have extension past the jaws, and with even 3/8" stock, it's easy to get vibrations.
I hope this write-up has been helpful. Best wishes, Kent
Kent VanderVelden on my channel I have a couple videos of my clearpaths in action. I built a KR33 based Cnc machine that has served me very well, I am in love with my clearpaths. In addition to the nema 23's I used on the KR33 machine, I do have 3 nema 34 clear paths laying around that I may put to work (although they are likely overkill right?) at that rate the motors would likely be delivering power that the spindle could not keep up with, true?
I recognized your name, but couldn't place it until I saw your pick-n-place machine - I subscribed :) The NEMA 34 ClearPaths range between 200 and 2000 oz-in of peak-torque, so they might be overkill, but you may never be concerned about torque either. Will you direct drive a large mass like the a mill head with a servo? The moving parts on the KR33 looks lighter so inertia ratio will be better than with a mill. Much of what I do (milling aluminum and steel) is at low IPM and I barely move the power meter on my 230 oz-in steppers. I like the Leadshine motors because I can pull diagnostics information from them, but that required reverse engineering their protocol, but likely the same steps could be taken when the ClearPaths. I'm redoing my CNC lathe project and that may be a great place to try them.
You may want to check out the conversation I had with Berend Lucas van der Weide. He's quite knowledgeable, and on his channel has replaced the head on a similar size mill with a high speed spindle. He's considering the ClearPath servos as well and currently has Leadshine steppers similar (closed-loop) but larger than the ones I have. Looks like a great combination for 3D work.
ua-cam.com/video/ogauKDOPoUA/v-deo.html&lc=z12uzd05immsg1s2q22adxya1qrgj3qgu04
In general what would say the final repeatability tolerance is like?
For this class of machine, repeatability is swamped by a multitude of other sources of error. From experience, not exhaustive direct testing, for a CAM generated tool path, I expect accuracy within 2thou within a 6" cube. Manual programming improves this. Like everything, improvements sends costs up quickly. Hope this helps. Happy holidays!
@@kentvandervelden Thanks for the reply. Happy holidays.
Hello Kent,
I have the same motors and mill. I am planning the conversion and would like to know if you are happy with these motors on all axis?
Hi Andrew, yes I'm happy with them. Of course the Clearpath motors would be nicer for my research because the Clearpaths have advanced performance monitoring, i.e., it's easy to extract current torque and there's a software interface that could be very interesting. The problem with the Clearpaths, for me, is their cost. I'm working on a lathe conversion now, I have an introduction to the project as one of my more recent videos, and used the Leadshine motors again. I again checked the Clearpath motors, but with all the goodies, I was looking substantially more, 4x if I remember right. The mill testing video was to demonstrate that people likely oversize the axes motors. I barely see over 100W consumed by all axes under normal operation. Of course, better to have excess torque than not enough, and that's why I mention at the end, it's safer to go with a bigger motor. However, the only time I have faults is when I crash. Another complaint I hear about steppers is their noise... on my lathe conversion I started with standard cheap-o steppers and they were loud... after receiving the Leadshine, the carriage motion (ballscrew-ballnut driven) is louder, and of course any machining operation will be louder yet. I'll have an update video on the lathe project soon and plan to demonstrate the sound difference between the cheap-o and Leadshine steppers. Whatever motor you select try to get one with a fault indicator that you can wire into your estop circuit to shutdown the machine in case of a crash. In my experience, the spindle will give up faster than the stepper motors. E.g., drilling requires a lot of spindle torque and force along the axis... and the spindle gives out well before the stepper motor. Best of success to you on your conversion. I would be glad to answer questions if I'm able. Kent
Kent VanderVelden
Thanks for replying so quickly.
I actually have three automaiontechnologiesinc.com 283 oz closed loop steppers. I plan on using these . I am happy to hear that you have had no problems. These motors seem significantly quieter on the bench than regular open loop steppers.
I was thinking of having a counterbalance on the head, but after seeing your video I may give it a go without.
Regards
Marty's CNC Garage might have demoed your motors recently (ua-cam.com/video/FQG0R1g-QRo/v-deo.html), and he said AT confirmed they are made by Leadshine. If so, you got a great deal. If you counterbalance the head, you lose downward thrust important for drilling. I did tinker with counterbalancing the head on an Industrial Hobbies mill and later removed it.
Kent VanderVelden
Yes those are the exact motors I have.
Do you have problems with the head falling when there is no power to the motors?
I’ll only add a partial counterbalance if this happens.
Thanks
+Andrew Laux The jibs are tight enough that the head does not fall... Normally... However... I did have the head fall once with a Haimer probe in the spindle. The Haimer survived but it was gut wrenching to witness. That time the head was already heading downwards when the main power glitched or some other equally odd event, and momentum kept all moving downward.
You have an avery??
Sorry, what's an avery?
Large Bird Cage. I can hear birds in the background sing.
Ah, I feel stupid, I should have known that. :) No birds but that's fascinating you noticed that. The sounds are from motors and background. The motors sound different than most stepper motors - perhaps because they are closed loop or perhaps because they are three-phase. I used traditional steppers on my lathe recently before switching to same closed-loop steppers used there and so the difference in sound is fresh in my mind. In a quiet room the camera increases the mic gain, and there is more background noise here than normal, e.g., normally the air moving in the register ducts is inaudible. Occasionally you may hear a piano playing in the background while my wife is giving lessons to the neighborhood kids. Love the sounds of a full house. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Are you reading a script? You sound like Data from Startrek.
Slow down and talk like you would to a friend next to you.
Yes. To respect a viewer's time I do plan out what to say, and I'll read a script if there are lots of details. Thanks for asking. Stay safe, stay healthy.