Finding a misfire using AESwave’s uScope - weak ignition coil
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- Опубліковано 17 чер 2013
- Keeping it simple and affordable in this video, demonstrating how high-powered scanners and scopes aren’t always required to make a solid diagnosis! Be sure to check the links below for more info about the uScope featured in this video. I also get to show the value of Mode $06 on Fords, which is part of Global OBDII and accessible with many cheaper scan tools.
Engine Performance Diagnostics chapter 1 pages 13 - 15
Symptoms
- check engine light (P1000, P0316, P0301)
- misfire under load
Fix
- replace the ignition coil
Tests shown
- how to use Mode $06 data on a Ford to identify a misfiring cylinder
- how to employ an AESwave uScope to identify an ignition misfire
- how to use an incandescent test light to check for spark strength
Tools used
- uScope Master Kit 1-channel automotive scope
www.aeswave.com/cart.php?m=aff...
- OTC 3633 Mini Circuit Tester
www.jbtoolsales.com/otc-3633-...
Playlist
- (Chapter 22) No Spark Troubleshooting, Ignition Coil & Module Testing
• (Chapter 22) No Spark ...
Related videos
- Ford Taurus Cam Synchronizer Diagnosis and Replacement
• Ford Taurus Cam Synchr...
- How to find a misfire with no trouble codes (uScope)
• How to find a misfire ...
- Ignition testing with a scope (Secondary Waveforms) - open plug wire
• Ignition testing with ...
- Secondary Ignition Waveforms (common faults)
• Secondary Ignition Wav...
- How to determine which cylinder is misfiring (cylinder drop test)
• How to determine which...
For more information on this topic, I have written a “field manual” called Engine Performance Diagnostics which is available at www.scannerdanner.com as an eBook or paper book.
Want even more diagnostic training? Whether you are a DIY trying to fix your own car, someone looking to become an auto technician, or a current auto technician that wants to get more into diagnostics, subscribe to ScannerDanner Premium www.scannerdanner.com/join-sc... There is a 14 day free trial.
On ScannerDanner Premium I will bring you right into my classroom at Rosedale Technical College. You will find page for page lectures taken right from my book as well as exclusive classroom type case studies. What is so special about these classroom case studies? I pull live problem vehicles directly into my classroom and we troubleshoot them in real time, using and applying the theory and testing procedures we learn during the classroom lectures. There is no better on-line training of how to troubleshoot automotive electrical and electronics systems anywhere!
Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC. - Авто та транспорт
Awesome. This was the first video of yours I stumbled on accidentally about a year ago. I was so confused LOL. Best thing that could have ever happened to me though, now I understand all of this much more. Even got my own little handheld scope/ Crazy how much I've learned in a short time. Thanks, Danner!
Glad you found me! And thanks so much for this comment. Made my day!
Great video, watching this made me pull the trigger on a uscope and have to say I love it. Easier to use than my Pico. 95% of the time I am using a scope I find I only really need one channel anyway.
What about crank, cam relationship & primaries? Thanks!
I saved up for a while and bought the uScope. Is it comparable to a Snap On Verus? No! But for the money, you can't beat it as a starter scope. I look forward to learning some fundamentals with this scope. Armed with Mr. Danner's book (Which, unfortunately, will have to wait until the tax return shows up), I hope to be a force to be reckoned with in the automotive diagnostic world and I fully intend on making a little bit of money with this bad boy. Thank you Mr. Danner. You inspire me to reach a higher level in auto diag.
I bought the U-Scope and I'm very happy with it. Very nice resolution, very convenient. I have other scopes but not like this "run and gun" that fits in my pocket. I got a great deal at just over a hundred bucks. The COP kit was 80 bucks or so. Works well too. Can't beat it. Thanks for another great video, Paul.
Joe in Culver City, California
in the very short amount of time this is being done, no damage will occur.
think about how many times you have had a misfire from an open plug wire that the customer has been driving around with for days and the coil is still okay. of course this will kill a coil too but my point is a few seconds of high coil kv will not kill it.
PAUL, I LOVE THE MINI SCOPE,
Great video as always, brought back a memory of t he same issue i had on my 99 ford taurus. on my issue no 1 and 6 were weak/bad.
GREAT tool. Also some french cars like Peugeot 206, Ciroen C2 1.1 Engines (4 cyl) they are using Compression sense ignition CIS and they don't have camshaft sensor :) and this tool will be valuable to all owners to those cars too that have knowledge. Thanks for posting this video.
That coil pack test is handydandy!
That's awesome. Thank you for showing that video. I have been wondering how I could get a cheap o-scope for just starting out. I'm not done with school yet, but I'll definitely be getting this uScope as a starter scope. Thanks again!
hi paul, i was wondering when you are gonna do this,, AND THERE YOU GO,!!! GREAT MAN GREAT
Always enjoy your videos Paul your the best!!!!!!!!!!
Very nice Paul .
you can with an optional paddle probe that they sell. however the cop coils with the transistor inside of the coil are hard to get signals from no matter what scope i use.
as for the current ramp test we may or may not have seen the problem. not all secondary faults can be seen on the primary ramp
Thanks Paul
The uScope is more ideal for automotive diagnostics:
- We improved hardware for increased safety and customization: changed channel input to protect against bridging/grounding; Isolated the USB; added a memory card slot.
- AESwave’s proprietary software: adds a peak detect function; improves user interface; Enables customization of A/B buttons.
- Kit includes automotive specific test leads, and a 2GB Card.
-1-yr warranty from AESwave in Fresno CA.
More details on proprietary unit at AESwave.com.
Thanks bud. Appreciate ya
great video.
Hey Paul. Wonderful info you show in your vids. I'm impressed watching/listening to someone talk and know what he's talking about. Got a 99 F150 5.4L. Trying to figure out a cyl 7 misfire (P0307) cold only. My mode 6 data is giving me info for cylinders 9 and 10? What's up with that?
See below....
TID:$53 CID:$07 Max: 19,709 Test result value: 1,228 PASS
TID:$53 CID:$09 Max: 19,709 Test result value: 5,300 PASS
TID:$53 CID:$0a Max: 19,709 Test result value: 5,299 PASS
Loving all the videos you've been putting up recently, great stuff!
Thank you you for that.
don't worry about 9 and 10. the tricky part with these Fords is the higher mileage engines will flag the wrong cylinder for a misfire due to timing chain slack. Look toward the cylinder either before or after the #7 in the firing order.
WOW I JUST ORDERED THAT UNIT THIS WEEK,
got ripped off...
Thank you .
You are welcome!
Keep in mind you can use ANY scope, for cars. Yo dont need to have "automotive" scope.
If you dont have much money to spend, get used 2 channel analog scope (50$-100$) or DSO Nano (89$ -For field use), secondary (30$) pickup and current sensor (Starting from 5$) or use inline 1 ohm 10W resistor (1$) and measure voltage drop on the resistor. I have analog scope(50$) and DSO nano, analog is prefered in most cases.
Search for youtube video "eevblog analog scope", it explains a thing or two.
V E R Y important advice. I had this doubt all along!!!
not in the brief time during testing but yes, an open secondary circuit is very harmful to the coil and possibly to the module depending on design.
Hey Paul, great video! I have been looking at the uscope and the Dso nano v3. They seem to be the exact same thing. Do you have any info on the DSO unit?
You're mostly right, Dunc, but a 1 inch gap in open air (outside the combustion chamber) is really only in the neighborhood of 25 to 30kv which is usually a perfectly good range to test a high energy coil.
what you need to realize is the actual voltage levels that I am putting into the scope can be measured in the millivolt to volt ranges. even though the KV reading is in the thousands of volts.
The scales represent the KV numbers, these are not actual and it is the same for all scopes when viewing Secondary KV with a capacitive pickup.
Ok thanks a lot. At 240K I will have to look into this. Wish I was close to you as this would be a good class "project". Misfire goes away after no more than 2 minutes after cold start winter or summer. Sets a code if I drive it away too soon.
Hey Paul, what I was wondering is how can you use this uscope on a coil on plug system. And on this example you showed what would you expect to see if you were to current ramp the coil
I am not sure I was clear on that. Here is another example. You are viewing starter current using an amp probe and you show 200 amps on your scope. Does that mean you are applying 200 amps directly to the scope? NO! It is a voltage conversion. (say 10mv = 1 amp) So 200 amps can be read on a 2v scale. Does that make sense? It is the same for KV readings with Secondary Ignition
Would you use a test light to check spark strength with the engine revved?
Could leaving a secondary ignition circuit open (like for some moments when testing with a test light), potentially harm the coil? I just remembered we were told that, at least in two-stroke systems - when electronic ignition came along.
i have a ? which one u think wld benifit the uscope or the snap on vantage? i do alot diagnostic work on electrical systems an dont have big money but lookin for smthing tht is alot faster than a multimeter to were i can catch glitches in like crank an cam signals an abs sensor!
hey dan how is the connector on the side of the unit it looks easly like it could break? also info on the display you use in the class room what is that unit that allows you to move the screen from the board i need to get one at the school i teach at
Your uscope is showing better detail than mine. Any idea how I can fix that? Was using mine today and noticed it. Tried a different ground location thinking that was it but didn't seem to help. Because of that I'm having a hard time determining if my misfire under load is from fuel or ignition.
Paul or any other technicians, What is your opinion on "ignition system analyzers", small handheld meters with a COP paddle pickup, that shows secondary ignition data (voltage/kV, burn time/mS, and some even show RPM and have a misfire indicator/counter?!?). Some of these units even show a secondary waveform! This tool /sounds/ awesome because you don't have to set up an oscilloscope with settings or leads.. even would save time vs a uScope because all you do is turn it on and place the paddle on the target coil.
---This tool is called "General Technologies Engine Ignition Analyzer", and the part # is "GTC505"
They even make similar analyzers but for fuel injectors, which /claim/ to show voltage wave forms using a pickup wand, and show pulse width time, RPM, PCM control signal, pintle opening/closing time, and has a "candlestick graph" to compare to other cylinders/injectors. It even claims to detect and count misfires using this data.
---This tool is called "General Technologies Fuel Injection Analyzer", and the part # is "GTC605"
Has anyone used these analyzer tools or similar system-specific waveform tools? It seems really great to have access to this information quickly without setting up a scope and placing leads. I am trying to decide whether to buy these separate tools or just a mini handheld scope with COP pickup wand and injector probe. The accuracy and speed of this small device raises doubt as I haven't ever seen a technician use either one, only seen regular oscilloscopes
I listed said tools above and am interested in hearing others' opinions before I buy them.
Hey Paul would you be able to see anything in the primary current waveform tht would suggest a secondary issue? Jus curios, awesome content, thank you.
Absolutely! But not all secondary issues can be seen in the primary
Cool :)
A year ago I asked AESwave if this firmware will work on DSO nano, and the answer was yes. But it is not free you have to purchase it, or you can use other firmware and get similar esults for 90 bucks.
From an electronics engineer perspective all these handheld scopes are toys, but keep in mind even the picoscope and the verus would have trouble keeping up with some medium frequency signals with any sort of resolution. For Automotive diagnostics these scopes are fine. All the handheld scopes are from china but have decent hardware thats well designed. Seeed studio has made better firmware available for these as well as documentation. They still lack a lot of features cheap bench scopes have.
Good vídeo, do you recomend the SUN LS 2000 scope for a beginer?
Never used it. I do recommend this little pocket uScope you are seeing in this video
goo.gl/1CHxQC
So do you have a dso nano and how has it worked for you?
Can you perform this test similar to power balance test while cranking. I realize it would be quick because injectors wont spray long. However, would scope show low contribution during this procedure?
cool
Just FYI you can pick these scopes up on ebay unbranded, then flash the firmware from the website. The stock firmware on the ebay scopes is junk. Also check out seeed studio (yes 3 e's) they have a nano2 with their custom firmware which is good, for $89 and a 4 channel for $170.
i dont get the idea from the end part, the last note on the uscope.. 1) use only on low voltage dc circuits, you used it on a KV sensitive mode?
What is that connector thing called, the one that you attached to the ignition wire?
So the verdict is "neat little toy "? Or useful tool and you recommend it?
Sir will the U scope do both 12 and 24 volt system
Have you found any flaws with it besides the fact that its a one channel scope......and I have also seen another scope just like this its called the dso nano it sells for 90 bucks but I wonder if it works as well as this one
Any idea what may be the cause of not seeing the dwell/on time when testing ignition coils by putting a secondary ignition probe on spark plug wires? Vehicle shows no misfire codes and seems to be running okay, but I don't see the dwell at all. I do see the inductive kick and burn time, but oddly, no system voltage pulled to ground before the inductive kick on any of the cylinders. Spark plug wires on this car are really fat and large in diameter, not sure if that's causing it.
That probe of how many x is
That would be nice if you don't want to drag out the laptop for the pico.
So when the voltage per div. section blinks in red does that mean your scale is too low?
Spoke with Mario from AESwave and he confirmed, the blinking red voltage indicates that, the scale is too low and needs to be adjusted higher.
Firmwareupdate to v5.11 is available on the Website
What's your opinion on the fluke 123 scope .
are you using the AUTOMATIC SET UP window on the scope or are you in IGNITION window ?
Anybody have any experience with the DSO QUAD? Probably came out of the same factory as the UScope, but its a 4 channel pocket scope.
Haha! Scratch that. 3/4" is right around 30kv.
I bought this scope. On my first day, the uscope paddle prob got spark from distributor cap, now it do not measure any voltage, even battery voltage. Doesn't it have any safety? Is it repairable? Such equipment without safety and diy repair would cost more :(
Contact www.aeswave.com, I'm sure they can offer you advice on what to do. When using the paddle probe, did you have the external ground lead connected too? That is there to protect from such incidents.
@@ScannerDanner external ground lead was connected to -ve terminal of battery. It showed waveform with same connection for few seconds and then got a spark.
I have Nano and old analog scope. Nano is only good if you need extreme portability. other ten that get 50$ used analog scope or save some money for benchtop DSO (2 channel 25Mhz start from 250$), you can try to get used DSO for cheaper. Benchtop scopes are faster to operate, they have dedicated knobs for most things. In nano you have use MENUs and it feels like a toy. To understand what I mean watch video called "eevblog analog scope"
Hey Danner, thanks for video. When you went through the secondary ignition coil that was not first cylinder but you showed it before others, does not that secondary ignition coil give signals of "Lean" condition in that cylinder? Cuz it had a bit kind of turbulence in the cylinder, it indicates the "Lean"condition. Why did you count it from Normal condition? Again I am talking about the "First" Secondary ignition coil you showed that was not the First cylinder.
Turbulence is normal, especially on a snap throttle. Check out my stuck closed injector case study to see what a lean misfire actually looks like in a secondary pattern
@@ScannerDanner I just watched your video about "stuck closed injector" video right after reading your reply. But there are some materials that little trubulance is shown there as "Lean condition". Can you make the video to find clue moments to see difference between Lean condition and Worn lab probe please? It would be fantastic for your viewers^^
I just don't use secondary ignition to see fine details, it's too difficult, too many variables. Don't get me wrong, I use it, but there are more fool proof ways to identify certain conditions.
@@ScannerDanner It was the most essential word that I needed to hear. Cuz I was stuck to every single waveform of ignition coils. And it was making me crazy. I will follow your way, as well. Thanks a lot.
@@orkhansafarli5992 watch this one when you get time my friend ua-cam.com/video/SUShO72Grq8/v-deo.html
so in a sense this isnt technically weak spark but arcing spark because the spark is very strong and not weak looking at all but its finding a easier path to ground somewhere when you do the spark jump test correct?
From memory, that is correct
Hi Paul the capacitive pick up can be used only on waste spark right, it won't show up a misfire on distributor spark plug cables one at a time.
The capacitive pickup can be used on any plug wire, doesn't matter if it is waste spark or not
@@ScannerDanner Oh I'll try it again I have a u-scope
Hey Paul thank u for all ur teachings. But just like u tell ur students go and play with the scope get some pictures to see what a known good waveform compared to a bad one. But this is confusing because on page 14 in ur book that same waveform u had on the scope really looks like a no fuel misfire. Now I know u can verify by checking the spark distance from the coil like ur explaining but What if like u said it's under the intake manifold. Because now I'm confused. If u can elaborate on it so I won't misdiagnose while at the shop. Looks like a no fuel misfire
No, this looks totally different. Check out the hash in the spark line. You won't see that in a no fuel misfire. Look again my friend.
Ohhh ok it's the hash. Scope waveforms can look misleading when u are new to this. Thanks Paul
I'm just learning about this tool... single channel
Limited sampling rate and clunky user interface. There have been lots of reviews and talks about them online just search youtube or checkout any of the electronic hobby sites or forums. I have thought about getting one just to have in a tool bag but dso bench scope is way better even for auto repair. I know Paul promotes the pico scope but in my opinion they are no good either they lack the bandwidth (limited by usb spec) and for the price of a pico scope you can can a really good bench scope.
Hi scanner Danner . Do u buy Chinese scanners . I hear there cheap compared to snap on. ?
Autel and Topdon for sure have my thumbs 👍
Ya, this uscope is a rip off at $400. The only difference between this and the DSO nano v3 is the firmware. Which I guarantee you can find somewhere online to flash over. The DSO nano costs $89.00
🖒🖒🖒
How can i get this uscope device
www.aeswave.com/scannerdanner-c512/
I thought that car is waste-spark not distributor is it?
Did you use an atinuator
I did not. I am not sure if they even make one for this?
ScannerDanner 👍🏽
ScannerDanner great video
psychofish21 I too have been looking at the dsonano and in my opinion they are the same, but for the extra $300 bucks you get free ignition leads from aes.
Is there a study guide on how to use the scope? I never used one.
I have lessons both here on UA-cam and on my website for this.
Search Picoscope Basics Part 1 and 2 here on UA-cam on my channel page to get you started.
SOME FORD HAVE 10 CYLINDERS, THIS IS WHY THE SOFTWARE SHOWS YOU UP TO 10 CYLINDERS, IT'S A NIGHTMARE TUNE UP , LOL
Dso nano was the original developer of the product but made it open source. All aes did was put their own firmware on the opensource hardware and jack up the price.
The test light test that you are demonstrating can cause a coil to fail. You are forcing the coil to try an overcome some extreme resistance by making it jump a one inch gap or have no good path to ground. It could cause the coil to short internally and ruin a good coil. No harm done of the coil is the source of the problem but if it isn't and someone damages a good coil who's going to be on the hook. Other than this I love all your videos and I wish I could work with you.
A few changes in the pcb ground plane is hardly worth $300,beside the firmware has already been improved upon by the opensource community and is available free online. Don't get me wrong I like your products, but I think your prices are a bit high side especially seeing as products like your uScope are base on products already available and required minimal change. I understand product development takes time and money and every company has to turn a profit, but It doesn't add up with this one.
Costs 400 Bucks .... ?!!!
zloben9000 For the master kit yes which includes high amp probe, low amp probe, 1:1 leads, and many other expensive components. If you already have those components you can get just the uscope for about $130 from AESWave. They custom programmed the firmware for automotive use.
+DJDevon3 Aeswave now offers 3 different uScope kits. The Master Kit, The Basic Kit and The Basic Lead Kit. Awesome little scope too! Great for beginners!
i have a ? which one u think wld benifit the uscope or the snap on vantage? i do alot diagnostic work on electrical systems an dont have big money but lookin for smthing tht is alot faster than a multimeter to were i can catch glitches in like crank an cam signals an abs sensor!