Why your Flat Tappet Lifters Failed
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2023
- Did you have a flat tappet camshaft failure? Flat tappet cams have had a difficult life over the past 10-15 years. Why do they fail? What can you do to keep your new break in alive? We'll talk about all those details, share some new info AND give you the solution to the break in problem.
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Got a bad cam failure story? Tell it below!
I just asked this same question to Elgin, since I had purchased their hydraulic flat tappers and L46 cam and then got real nervous of catastrophic failure if the quality was china inferior! I sent an email to their tech dept. wanting more info about their lifters- here’s their reply!
“
Hi David,
Thank you for your inquiry. Elgin lifters are OEM, made by Eaton & Delphi. The flat tappets are from the same Eaton factory that makes them for OEM assembly lines. What ever inventory the OEM's don't use at the end of each week is made available to the aftermarket through Elgin. The HL-1817 are coming from the GM Engine Assembly Complex in Mexico. These have the lifter body cast and machined in North America. We sell them because they are the only lifters that we will cover with our warranty.
Thank you,
Scott Stier
Aftermarket Sales
Desk : 847-930-6325
Elgin : 800-323-6764
Had a very reputable cam fail on one lifter during break in. Had .498 total lift with 1.7 rockers and the springs recommended by the mfr. This was on a 351m truck engine that was built mildly over stock. Cam, lifters and springs made by same mfr and ordered as a kit. Used high zinc break in oil from the machine shop that they sold, forget the brand. They build racing engines. They did not mention using lighter springs for my combination. They have also had cam/lifters fail for the racing engines they've built that require flat tappet cams. Went full roller valvetrain and spent 2000 bucks more than I wanted to on the build but in the end it's a better combination.
Hard to argue against a roller set up. With flat tappet cams and lifters getting harder to get, the prices have spiked up. Even more reason to walk away from it. 351M is another one of those low rpm break in engines. Sad to hear you had one fail!
Never had to do any of this in the late 70's / 80's ? Just do it right and go.. Excellent video ..
@@kennethlee1031 keep watching the series. We cover a very key element that only happens with time. Lifter bore wear. Something no one is talking about but it’s absolutely a problem today with engines that have been in service for decades. Thanks!
Outstanding job, thank you for taking the time explaining about CS failure. I am building a 348 chevy BB so this is so helpful!! v
The 348 fits in that heavy valve train discussion. There are some specifics that you can do to increase the chance of survival. Glad you enjoyed the video! The other two in the series are filled with a lot more info too.
This is the best video I’ve seen on this subject, thank you.
Thank you!
No matter how you heat treatment, temper, harden etc etc etc cheap steel is soft in core value and brittle on the surface, oil additive isn't as good as old high zinc oil from the 70s, I used to be a machinist at the Newport News shipyard on reactor valves, take my advice please, find a old stock Cam and lifters from way back or go roller !!!
New doesn't mean alot these days (steel quality, oil quality etc) a good roller setup is money well spent.
All the best to you and yours Sir.
I think you’d find the second video in this series interesting. Material hardness and depth was a big part of that conversation and I cut down some cams to show it! Cheers!
A video about engine builders , their attitudes, and real ability. How to know what to ask and when to walk away could help too. Great stuff cheers
Since I’ve had to bug the crap out of quite a few shops (sorta) locally to me, I’ve thought about interviewing one. Might show some good insight. I know they get frustrated too. Something I might do this winter. Thanks for the idea!
Great job as always. Lots of good information. Also some good information in the comments.
Very well done. lot of good information.
Thank you sir. Always appreciate you stopping by!
The number 1 thing you did not mention - Fire that motor with the vale covers off. Stripe the push rods. If you do not see each one rotating like crazy, shut it off and figure out why ??
If it ain't spinning on first fire, it ain't going to. Could be crown to taper mis-match, etc. But what ever the reason figure it out.
This video wasn’t about how to break in a cam. I mentioned immediately to start the video that we wouldn’t be covering every aspect of why a lifter failed. Perhaps we’ll cover that topic in depth down the road. Thanks for the idea and watching!
You hit the nail on the head, Some lifters are not made properly in the first place, they will not turn properly. Any Engine builder that tells you they have never lost a cam is ether not building vary many engines or they are a Bullshitter.
My son and I are building a 306 SBF for his Fairmont, and have been digesting all of this lifter failure discussion. I am Ford factory trained, and also work for a shop that restores 64 to 69 mustangs. My job is to break in the new engine that came from a well known rebuilder, and I have yet to have a failure with OE spec cams and spring rates. I do use added zinc and pre-oil with a drill motor, run them at 2200 +/_ for 30 minutes, set timing to 30 degrees (locked), and keep an eye on temps. I have a new comp cam and lifter package for the 306, and I took several of the lifters, placed them upside down on a true steel plate and checked the crown with a dial indicator starting at "zero" with the indicator in the center of the crown. Not very pleased with the accuracy of the crown, and after marking the high and low areas near the chamfer, I am about to give up hope. ( some of the chamfers had chips missing from them ) Any thoughts on the use of "DLC" coatings on the lifters, and are there any cases of the coating flaking off ? Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with us.
The DLC lifters are amazing. So far I’ve yet to hear of any failures. The coating is molecular in its depth. It’s not like a coating per se. Comp offers a DLC lifter for the Chevy engines but I don’t think they have released it for any of the others. Maybe we’ll get some news at SEMA or PRI this year on new applications.
Thanks for another video on this subject. I am slowly doing a 65 Nailhead for a Riviera and I am mortified about break in. The only stock cam and lifters for these are Melling. I will be taking in the block sometime this fall but will add the lifter bores to the list of things to get eyeballed. I cant find a roller cam for this engine and would get one if I could; found lifters amazingly. Not being an engine builder I have enough things to consider on top of potential failure. Sucks!!
There was someone out there making cores for the nailhead out of 8620 if I recall correctly. Would have to dig for it to see if I can find it.
Thanks for the video. 👍
You’re very welcome!
Thank you
Took out a 383 cam on break-in because of no zink. I have about four thousand miles on my 67 327 that I just got eliminator ported 195 heads for and now I'm trying to figure out what roller cam I'm going to put in it now. Great video.
I chickened out years ago and have been roller ever since. Or maybe it’s be use I don’t want the responsibility of all the extra work. 😂 Either way, roller is a great choice. Video coming on that topic soon. Thank you!
@@MuscleCarSolutions I'll be waiting for the video. Haven't built a sbc in years but I'm trying to get around 480-500hp. Got a 1984 El Camino with monster ss 700r4 part kit installed by local shop. Spray or turbo 2,400/2,800 stall. 3.73 carbon fiber rear. Thinking about taking it to The Firm in Starke FL and having some fun in my over 55 life I seem to be living now
I am building a Buick 350 SP, 1970, 10.25 compression, rated 315 HP 410 TQ stock. It looks very fresh inside, and the #1 intake lobe/lifter was wiped (as well as some other lifters showing some dishing) I assume on break-in, and many years ago (like 15). I have a TA Performance cam, .470 lift 218 duration and .475 lift 230 duration, as well as the single valve springs they recommended for this cam. I secured a set of NOS Johnson lifters from the 80's with EDM holes where the intended build never happened. I would like to measure the cam lobe taper and the lifter crown. #1: Is there a relatively simple way to measure these values, as I am no machinist, just a mechanic. #2: What would those ideal numbers be? I plan to use Lucas assembly lube and break-in oil, of course following the recommended speed and length of break in, after I crank the engine with the starter to get oil pressure, verify oiling to the rockers, and also verifying all the lifters/pushrods spin (if you think this is a good idea, at least). Any help or suggestions would be very much appreciated. Thank you for delving into the topic of flat tappet cams and lifters, Sir.
I have a question, there is something I don´t understand. This issue of lifter failure is one I have come across over the years and I have never really looked into the issue. My question is, does this issue arise from contemporary engine builders looking for big power at high rpm? This situation would require aggressive cam profiles and higher engine speeds, i.e. stiffer valve springs. I am wondering if we have reached the limits of these blocks. Specifically, the lifter diameter which would affect the line contact and it´s resultant hertzian contact stress. I get the impression that is the real root cause because lifter design, materials and heat/surface treatment are old hat. Have we passed what these older block designs can handle?
you cant use Chinese parts.
This subject has me scared to do a new flat-tappet in my 289 and just pay through the nose for a roller setup... at that point I should just do a 302. Haha. Great info in here. Settles some of my nerves about trying a new f-t cam.
Honestly, because the supply is getting smaller, the prices of flat tappets have gone up substantially. I switched to roller a long time ago. I’m just not willing to go through all the work to make one live. Doing this series has taught me a lot. Glad you liked it!
just pay for the roller or go find a 5.0block that's already setup for OEM roller.......this flat tappet mess is never going to get solved. The last production engine that used flat tappets was the 4.0 Jeep engine that was discontinued over 15 years ago. The lifter manufacturers just do not have the OEM pressure to competently make these parts........everyone has their theory as to why this keeps happening but it just doesn't matter when there is no real answer in sight and you just watched your $ get lit on fire because of this.
@@yurimodin7333 unfortunately there are quite a few racing classes that demand flat tappet use. There are folks who just what that option as a choice, for whatever reason. In todays world, if you want them to live, there’s a long list of things that have to be done if they want that choice to live.
@@MuscleCarSolutions those racing classes are going to have to change. we are approaching 2 decades of no oem flat tappet engines. Even nascar finally allowed rollers after every team got sick of wiping out $100,000 engines for no reason.
@yurimodin7333 I don’t disagree. That conversation has been going on for the better part of the last 20 years. Yet they still keep chugging along with old rules….🤷♂️ Glad I don’t live in that world. Id have been frustrated enough to go find another hobby. 😂
I've got 2 sets of OE GM lifters from TBI 350 engines. They are two-piece body, hard-face hydraulic types. They are in good used condition and would need refaced but are better than what can be found nowadays. I'd let each set go for actual shipping cost.
I saw someone chuck up a lifter to reface it. When this happened it looked like the factory bevel had been done by hand
I have an edelbrock avs2 and it doesn’t feel like the secondaries are opening up under WOT. I know this isn’t related to your video but I figured I’d ask on your most recent one.
I have a video on adjusting the air valve.
"...hope isn't a strategy."
Very next sentence:
"I hope that cleared things up for you,....." 😁
My hope is for your success. Hoping the valvetrain holds up without a plan seems like it would be entertaining! Like those engine exploding videos on TikTok!
Well said. A lot of fingers seem to point at incorrect or non-existent crown on new lifters. One bad part will cause a failure of an entire system?
Many have talked about it but it’s the only things that seems to have caught any attention. In reality, it’s just one part of the total equation. We discuss all those in this video series.
Although I don’t have the answer here, whenever I’m solving an issue I try to be mindful of over analyzing.
What would be the brake in procedure for big block oldsmobile. 455ci.
start and run 2800 RPM for 30 Minutes
As an engime builder most fail fir the reason people let it sit and idle while they set the carb and timimg .when that is perfect they take it up to 1800-2400.
That flat tappet needs almost immediate to that rpm range. You can dial it in directly after you drop that first oil change.(directly after break in). This is my two cents 24yrs in the trade. Fyi for gm melling or gm lifters have always been extremely good for me along with service.
Yup. There’s a nice long list of best practices for break in. I did the initial break in on the GMC live so it could be seen how I do it. You’re spot on. I could care less about setting timing perfectly and getting the carb tuned. If it starts, get it to its preferred rpm immediately!
I was surprised about the Melling being made in Mexico. Wonder what else of that brand comes from off shore?
@@MuscleCarSolutions i can tell you for me it has not effected the quality. I could be getting very lucky . You would be shocked on how many "made" in USA is not actually made in USA .
Melling also claims it's all machined and made in USA.
@@MuscleCarSolutions had failed cam once with Melling .called it in and they immediately next day sent me lifters , cam and pushrods(were free) the very next day.
I’ve worked in the automotive aftermarket for over 30 years. The biggest thing that has happened to the industry in that time is the race to cheaper parts. It’s driven a lot of products off shore. Some ok, others not so ok.
@@MuscleCarSolutions I know of one manufacturer of cams , pistons ect. That used to be elite is now junk except for a pretty box.
When breaking-in you mentioned the triple springs. What about double springs. It's my understanding that you can keep the inner spring in during break-in.
All depends on the pressures. If they would out to under 100 on the seat and less than 200 open, you’re good. But in reality, a double spring is likely going to be way too much.
Trick Flow cam, Delphi lifters, Permatex Ultra Slick assembly lube,Joe Gibbs oil. All that and a “ known running set up” i.e. carb and ignition. You’ve pretty much got one shot at start up.
Have you ever dealt with delta cams in Tacoma WA, I running a few of them that are still fine after many years from 2 Big Chevy's and my old shovel head Harley, great video keep them coming
I used to live in that area. I’m familiar with their product, but would never choose them for anything serious. Though they do have a decent regrind program.
Mismatches aren't born in a brand name as much as the specs: where that crown is, proximal to taper. And of course hardness procedures. For example, a greater taper necessarily demands more crown [shorter effective grind radius] to keep loading away from that outer 0.050" or so of the outer lifter edge. Good point on excessive spring pressures - I wish I had a shop with a spintron near me. There are some things a cam manufacturer has to estimate about anyones engine: valve, rocker, and pushrod weights. Can a builder do better in selecting seat pressure & spring rates? Maybe... but its gotta be tested, not shade treed.
And now for some sacrilege: knowing the purpose of break in oil is to increase wear through reduced protection... why are we complaining about flat tappet failures again? As we chew on that, a disturbing fact about present ASTM test methods cited by some oil products as part of their API certifications: they are not testing using this older lifter design that must spin in the bore to survive. D6891 [also known as IVA test] attends to cam wear, and D8350 ["lifter" wear - actually bucket] attends to the following device but may yield some cam data. Both tests use overhead cam design engines, neither of which involve taper so pressures an oil has to stand up to are different and most importantly... lower. So the reason some remove inner springs when using break-in oil is because... they are using break in oil? Yes Virginia, that appears to be the case. Maybe... trying to go past 0.525" lift or thereabouts [non-track use] is the moment to begin looking at a roller? All depends on mass and rocker ratio. Note what we cannot find from any oil provider, despite certifications almost falling out of their windows: PSI breakdown vs temperature curve which should arc like an eyebrow over its useful range. Oils number one job is protection: heat, chemical and pressure. Where IS their pressure breakdown data? Harder to find than taterheads "exit stage right" plans...
Its much easier to talk about keeping brands the same on cam and lifters as the assumption would be they were designed and tested with a crown that works with the taper on the cam. I know of a builder that has a custom ground cam with a TON of taper be use he chose to go with an off shore lifter and the two needed to match to facilitate the correct rotation. Yet if someone were to get their hands on that cam and use a lifter with an OE type crown, hello failure.
yea what break in is, is very rarely talked about or considered? is it supposed to harden the surface of the lifters and cams in this case?
how come these aren't a problem with bucket over valve overhead camshafts and either inbucket or overbucket shims tho and their manufacture? that's a flat(not really flat) pushed just by the cam directly.
I use LS springs on my sb flat tappet break ins
It’s all about what pressures during break in.
I found the more aggressive cams seem to have a higher rate of failure.
Also Lucas make an amazimg break in oil ! Dont take an addictive and shake it up in the jug.
When I was collecting cams and lifters for this series, I saw no range of cams that had better survival rates. Nor hydraulic or solid lifter cams. It was a very broad range. Maybe 50-60 failed cams is what I started with across all brands. Can’t remember where I posted those pics but it was crazy to see so many in one spot.
@@MuscleCarSolutions in my experience the very high lift cams I have done have been prone to lifter/can issues. Like you said it's mostly a valve spring problem and a person not listening to protocol. I can't help a person that knows everything. Left the shop with all instructions even offered to do the springs before and after break in lol. 75% don't want the help.
30:56
It’s all I’ve got 😂
I use that line a lot. 😂
i guess my machine shop didnt check the lifter bores makes total sense now dam
Ouch
The lifter failures are due to issues with machining of the lifter crown and occasionaly on the cam itself. Here's what I do and recommend.
1. Use a MATCHED SET OF COMPONENTS (kit) with matching cam / lifters / valve springs. DO NOT MIX AND MATCH CAM, LIFTERS AND VALVE SPRINGS!! Do yourself a
favor and get a new Comp Cams or Edelbrock MATCHED KIT. The wrong springs for your cam will kill it.
2. Take your cam and lifters to a competent machinist to measure each lobe for correct taper and each lifter for correct crown. [It seems incorrect
machining has been on the increase causing this rash of cam failures] so this step is a MUST now. See below how to check the parts yourself.*
3. When installing the lifters, make sure each lifter will turn freely in the lifter bore and that there is no excessive wear of the lifter bore to cause
lifter wobble.
4. Follow your cam company guidelines for installation (What you put on the bearing surfaces is not the same as what you put on the lobes for example).
5. Follow your cam company guidelines for break-in. Do not let engine idle at all.
6. Use a HIGH ZINC break-in oil and then after break in use a High Zinc motor oil (DO NOT USE ZINC ADDITIVES OR DIESEL OIL!!)
7. Drive the vehicle easy for the first 500 miles, don't go full send until you know that it's good to go.
* If you don't want to take the parts to a machinist to measure, then do this: Install and adjust everything but leave intake and valve covers off. Prime the oil system with drill then install distributor to drive oil pump. Then crank engine over with the starter with no plugs installed. Check EVERY lifter to ensure it is TURNING smoothly. If you have one not turning or turning but not smoothly... you have an issue! If they are all turning smoothly and evenly, complete assembly and fire it up! If they are not, disassemble and find out why. It won't fix itself!
I wish that lifter/cam failures were only due to machining of those tow parts. In reality, it’s much more than that. The other videos in this series cover those aspects.
You should check your facts on core shift.
Improper break in!
Chinese crap steel
The problem is the finish on the ground face of the lifter. One lifter manufacture left in USA, they make everyone's made in USA lifters.
Incorrect. There are more than two still making flat tappet lifters and if you’re referring to the crown on the lifter, they are ground for what the taper on the lobe is. As long as they are compatible, there is no problem. Even crown that is well outside of the OE spec can work just fine, IF the right taper is ground on the lobe.
How many left that manufacture performance lifters? The surface finish on the taper (if magnified) is full of imperfections.@@MuscleCarSolutions
Broke in almost 50 engines using non detergent oil. None have ever had a problem!
May you continue to cheat the flat tappet death!
@@MuscleCarSolutions what can I say it works!
@jimcereda165 roll of the dice for sure!
@MuscleCarSolutions love your channel, mate!
******WHY IS CHANFER BAD ???
Simple. You want to most surface area available. A wide chamfer takes away from that and it’s also an indication of a poorly machined lifter.
Dont use Chinese made lifters and cams!
I wish that was the only problem with flat tappet cam and lifters. Sadly it’s not.
@@MuscleCarSolutions I use Elgin and Melling cams and lifters they are inexpensive and work good never a problem. They produce in USA and Mexico, here in Germany we add 2% Mos2 (Molybeniumdioxide) additive by Liqui Moly or Molykote to the engine oil aftre break in. German and Swiss Army do the same with older Tank and truck engines.
@@Schlipperschlopper never mix brands on cam and lifters. Go watch my video on measuring crown on lifters. Melling was the absolute worst. Playing chemist and mixing your own oil is also a bad idea. Any modifier doesn’t mix unless it’s at the right temperature and of it doesn’t interfere with the base oils additive package. If it’s fighting the detergent, it doesn’t have the protection of the additive and you’re killing the cleaning properties of the oil.
@@MuscleCarSolutions Well since WW2 most armys mix 2% Mos2 to the engine oil for better cold start and hot running protection, Mos2 does not change the lubricant chemistry it even lubricates for a certain time if engine is running out of oil. As I told I use Melling cams with Melling lifters and Elgin cams with Elgin lifters this combination never let me down.
@Schlipperschlopper I hope your luck never fails.
This is not the reason at all. You need to install them correctly.