October 2021 Q&A 1:21 Less movement in shooting matches over time? 6:56 Different shooters/turnover at competitions? 11:38 How does a complete novice get into competitive shooting? (Like DB?) 13:33 Shotting stages: practicality vs fun themes? 15:15 Wasteland Shuffle Rules for shotgun or lever action? 16:39 Do other people bring crappy (value) guns to backup guns matches, or just you? 17:50 Dangerous wildlife on a match? 19:00 How do you grow attendance at matches? 20:23 Score compensation for caliber? 23:12 Gear races? 25:34 How important is it to match calibers between your PCC and handgun in a PCC match? 26:57 Good clothing for tactical events? 29:03 Changes for running a 2G ACM in a gun control state? (i.e. magazine limits) 30:29 Your favorite high-middle-low LPVO’s and red dot’s for 2Gun competitions? 33:52 Reconsider allowing braced/stocked pistols in armored division? 38:55 What are your goals for competitive shooting to stay motivated and focused? 40:16 What sort of match would you suggest for percussion revolvers? 41:10 Are Magpul 40 round mags a net benefit over 30 rounders? 42:35 Is shooting black powder a disadvantage over smokeless at a Cowboy Action Match? 43:12 My new Magpul D60 sucks. Is this your experience? 44:42 Partisan instead of Scout? Reasons behind this change? 46:28 Considered drone footage at matches? 47:12 Competition with muzzleloaders? 48:00 DB2021; logistical challenges with setting up at a new facility every year? 49:45 I signed up for Cold War Division at DB; shooting irons for first time in a competition. Advice? 51:15 Loopholes and bending the rules in match design? 52:19 Cold War DMR; semiauto at 3 MOA, 20 rounds or bolt action 1 MOA, 5 rounds? 53:38 Is armored required to carry all ammo and firearms through the entire event? 54:11 Generally, what gear should be avoided at DB2021? 55:37 Karl, your blunderbuss trap video was awesome. Did you ever shoot trap competitively? 56:41 What physical training is beneficial for dynamic shooting matches? 57:41 Any chance for a Monster Hunter or Halloween theme shotgun match?
always good to see him on inrange when he's not posting on his will be interesting seeing more of Kevin as well. Blunderbuss skeeting sounds like Karl's thing loool
I don't think he's ever really been uncomfortable "with the camera," I think it's more like when he's at inrangetv he's at work and he takes this shit very seriously. And we like him for that exact reason
Thank you Karl and Russell, my WWSD 2020 rifle arrived and I'm taking it out this weekend to shoot it. Very excited. I have to agree with how you are running the Brutality matches. My old Army-worn knees may never allow me to be competitive in those events, but I'd gladly try one out to say I did it (and just not walk much the week after).
@@MX5autoxer I know the cost of the wwsd well enough. $1,600 is up into the better names, but it's not top tier money. There are lots of kac,radian,lwrc piston guns, geiselles, lmt, pof, noveske etc. There's a lot of rifles out there that sit in a higher tier than wwsd.
LOL on the clothing discussion. Totally agree. I jump military static line parachutes for fun, and the only reason we all wear camo for practice jumps is really we can get inexpensive (or already have, from serving) military issue fatigue pants that are durable, comfortable, and have good range of motion. Unless you're abnormally large, you can get milsurp multicam ACUs for less than Levis (and UCP digital pixelgrau for dirt cheap). And you don't care about dirt and grass stains on camo.
Timestamps 1:21 - Orian H.: Why do you think the natural progression of matches, namely cowboy action and 3-gun tend to include less and less movement over time 6:55 - 3 Lock: How often do you see shooters turnover 11:36 - Kurosawa FTW Seven: How do a complete novice get into competitive shooting 13:31 - William F: Do you prefer themed or non-themed matches 15:14 - RGB: With the Wasteland Shuffle distributed match, would you consider making a ruleset for shotguns or lever-action rifles 16:38 - E Raha: Are there any other people bring crappy guns to backup gun matches 17:49 - Micheal S: Have you encountered any dangerous animals in any of your matches 19:00 - Alex P: How do you entice people who are hesistant to shoot in a competitive environment to come and try it? Or what do you think would be an effective method to grow attendance at matches 20:24 - Jordan W: Should matches have score compensation for calibers 23:11 - Joey: What do you feel about gear races 24:35 - Matthew B: How important is it to matche calibers of your pistols and PCCs 26:56 - August: What do you consider good clothing for tactical events 29:03 - Robert H.: What changes do you recommend for your stage designs in jurisdictions with strict gun laws 30:29 - N7 Shepherd: What are your 2 favourite high, middle, low-end, red dot and LPVO for 2gun 33:52 - Stephen W: Would you reconsider allowing stocked pistols into armoured division 38:55 - Brian I: What are your goals in competitive shooting that keep you focused and motivated 40:15 - Andy Echo: What sort of matches would you come up with to allow people to use and have fun with percussion revolvers 41:09 - Adam S: Are the 40-round magpul magazines a net gain in competitions compared to 30s 42:36 - Tristan R: Would you saying shooting black powder in a cowboy action match is an disadvantage compared to smokeless 43:12 - Tristan R: I got problems with my D60s, did you encounter any problems with them 44:41 - Matthew J: I noticed partisan instead of scout in DB2021, what was the reason behind it 46:29 - James B: Have you consider using drones to film matches 47:12 - Marlene: Have you done any compeitions using muzzle-loaders 47:59 - Paul S: What logostical challenges have you found with changing venue every year for Desert Brutality 49:45 - Mauzer Dude: Do you have any advice for shooting iron-sighted rifles in a competition 51:14 - Faze: Do you spend much time thinking how people might exploit the rules or loopholes or assume they would play it straight 52:19 - Chase C: Would it better to use a scoped autoloading magfed DMR with 3 moa or a manually loaded 1 moa bolt-action 53:38 - Boyd A: Is amoured division in DB2021 required to carry all 3 firearms and all ammo throughout the entire event 53:13 - Jotum Skip: What type of gear/gun/accesories that should be avoided when shooting Desert Brutality 55:38 - Patrick H: Did you ever shoot trap skeet competitvely 56:41 - Flip K: What training beside shooting training is benefictial to taking part in dynamic shooting matches 57:41 - Eric S: Any chance for a monster hunter or any halloween themed match Note: The questions are paraphrased for brevity. Also Russell is using up his annual quota of expressions in this single video
One of my pet peeves about cowboy action is the loading down ammo to unnaturally light levels for reduced recoil. You know the people doing that would be running the hottest plus p they can get if they was using it for defense instead of competition. I think you should have velocity of at least the short of your cal to be in anyway realistic.
Would they, though? You cannot afford to have a problem with your firearm, so if you expect to be shooting at close ranges would you not skimp? Leaving aside the cost savings.
Cowboy action was never about defense it's about dressing up and playing cowboy in a "competitive" environment. As with anything where score is kept some will take it serious and try to win.
Same thing is done in regular competition, that's why you have the power factor rules, and so many competitors doing weird caliber tricks to game the system to have the lightest recoil for that power factor. Like running long loaded .40s with heavy bullets out of 2011s to meet the power factor of .45 with higher capacity and lower recoil. It still takes skill to climb up the leaderboards, though.
@@CCW1911 well if they are gonna dress the part it seems they should shoot the part too. Either use black powder or load to equivalent levels, not mouse fart loads
Worth waiting for Karl and Russell! My typical day: •Wake Up •Think of 2G ACM / Brutality Matches •Strategize 2G ACM / Brutality Matches •Plan for 2G ACM / Brutality Matches •Evaluate equipment and gear for 2G ACM / Brutality Matches •Watch videos about 2G ACM and Brutality Matches •Cheese •Sleep
Great Q&A! Very timely for my purposes, since I'm trying to get back into competitive shooting! Both of y'all have a wealth of knowledge to share, and it comes through easily here. I appreciate the patience each of you has to answer these questions, many of which you have likely dealt with before in wearing your many hats associated with all aspects of competitive shooting. Karl is a criminally under-appreciated, personable, caring, and passionate jewel to the gun-owning community and I feel his efforts to change our weird subculture for the better far away from his home in AZ. I'm also glad to see Russell continue to do more stuff with InRange- his expertise combined with his laid back attitude make for a good watch, and he never comes off as a know-it-all, only as a helpful and kind friend. Y'all keep up the great work.
The competition scene in upstate NY is actually pretty robust! All the ranges are generally quite small, so we only have pistol/PCC stuff, but there are many UPSPA, IPDA, or action pistol matches every weekend in the Syracuse / Rochester / Binghamton area. As a consequence of our requirement for a license to own a pistol up here, the PCC divisions of these competitions are pretty large as well, both for older shooters and for people who don't have their pistol license yet (like me) I've had a blast competing in matches over the past year up here. Definitely a fun scene, even if the average age of shooters is... quite high.
The "conversation" about High Power really contains a good portion of (unintended?) comedy 😂 The sneeze for example or Russell's reaction in form of one word answers to the "boring" topic really got me.
An old martial arts instructor of mine said that your true competition is with yourself. People who get that improve, and people who don't, stop showing up.
The company that made the original Battle Dress Uniform back in the Eighties, Proper International, still sells BDUs for $30 a pair. Just as good now as it was 40 years ago.
IPSC Rifle does have power factor, but its largely limited by stage design, outside of some of the outlier Scandinavian matches the target presentations are not challenging enough to show a difference in power factor. in IPSC its less a matter of how many shots you shoot between minor and major, because the scoring requires the same minimum shots regardless of calibre/power factor, the difference lies in non-perfect hits scoring with non A zone hits worth more in major, so if you can push a lot faster with major power factor, you can make up for less A zone hits with better times, hence Open division in IPSC/USPSA handgun matches. With IPSC Rifle, everything is a laser with almost no recoil so its just a matter of speed so power factor has become largely irrelevant sadly. Also, gotta say this is the most emotive I've seen Russel in ages, glad to see the terminator has been downloading those firmware updates. Good stuff as always Karl!
Love the Q&A's and thanks to this one I've decided to take the plunge and signed up for my first Steel Challenge match. I feel I've got the accuracy down but I never shot on a clock so who knows what will happen. I'm just hoping to enjoy myself and learn some new skills.
i rather have a nice chill "match" than a competition. everybody has their own preferences and due to my body being completely fucked up i prefer not to risk injury just for "being number 1". edit: they said it better. :D
I completly agree with you but it is somewhat the same as with video games now. Lot of people, not you and me, prefer that watered down difficulty to some good challange.
Especially when it comes to something simulating a practical survival skill. "ooh I can't do this match because I'm 80lbs overweight", you might as well just stick to the indoor range lanes because you immobilized yourself with unhealthy habits.
Regarding scoring compensation for caliber, something interesting could be to have "armored" targets. The common practice of black-taping an IPSC cardboard target could be made more interesting than "hit/miss". For example, a rifle caliber anywhere on the target could be scored appropriately as "hits" even on tape, but a pistol caliber (or shotshell) would only count hits in the non-taped area (as is traditional).
Yeah have a rifle plate sized taped on the"armored" targets where a potentially NIJ IV with AP caliber can score the hit in the tape but a intermediate or pistol caliber has to either double tap outside the tape or headshot
I respect the hell out of (hehe) sticking to your guns on the ethos of brutality matches. It’s good to try and include more people, but not if it means giving up the original goal.
12:39 this applies to running matches too A local range reached out to me because they wanted to have their first competition I was hoping they wanted to do steel challenge or maybe uspsa, no they wanted to run a 2 gun match in the middle of July in Louisiana. Me and some guys from our USPSA club helped them set everything up the match ran well. When they first announced it their membership was all about it but in the end the majority of people that showed up were me and my people they have not had another match since they learned real quick how much work it is to run. 20:10 I started shooting USPSA with my carry rig only thing I changed was I tucked my shirt in I carry AIWB so everyone kept making cracks about me shooting off my junk not knowing I had done force on force from that position. I tell the new shooters don't buy anything major for at least 6 months and thats if you shoot a match every month getting a double belt a more optimal holster and mag pouches is okay but we have guys that shoot one match then each subsequent match have something different when they should just spend money on ammo and a range membership
I was surprised at the turnover rate of competitive shooters. In my limited experience it seems like the rate is not so fast in distance running, competitive cycling or climbing; the activities I have some experience with. I’m at an age where competitive shooting will not be my reality but if it were I would want to participate in a structure just like the one(s) you create. I love that you both are so open to experimentation, reassessment and change.
There is the "It's no longer fun/logisticaly viable for me" turnover and "I can't do it anymore for health reasons" turnover. It's usually the former in shooting. If you check olympic-style (ISSF) shooting, it's normal to see people in their late 50s or 60s.
It would be quite weird to have a match called "brutality" that is designed with accessibility in mind. The name itself suggests that it would be physically demanding. Like exhausting for the physically fit participants.
I shot Zombies in the Heartland match This year and one person on my squad was a paraplegic. Afghan war vet. He was in a tracked motorized "chair" that could lift him to a standing position. He was never going to win, but every accommodation was made to him in order for him to complete the stages. That included letting him shoot stages differently.
RE allowing stocked pistols / pistol derived chassis SBRs / smaller PDWs... what about saying that it's allowed but it also counts as your carbine as well as your pistol? Then the benefit is easier "pistol" stages but the cost is a crappier "carbine" on those stages. Maybe make that a "PDW" division restricted to 1 weapon shooting pistol or PDW rounds that has to be less than a certain overall length? (Or that plus a DMR for desert brutality - carrying a PDW in addition to a big old DMR sounds like a realistic thing too vs DMR + carbine + pistol)
I have no idea what you're talking about. Something about snakes vs. spiders and .308 is better than 5.56 (duh). But I'm hypnotized by that BRN-10. Damn, that thing is sexy. Seriously. Wow.
So you advise to use a .308/6.5 rifle in partizan due to 600 yd engagements on the match. Seeing as how you say (generally) that the courses are designed to be completed with an iron sighted ak, how doomed would I be using an intermediate cartridge rifle?
That's a very interesting discussion to me as a relatively new casual competitor in IPSC and 3gun: as for the power factor, is it really a problem if people gravitate to 308/762x51, I mean at least in IPSC if you're in it to win it, you'll game it any way you can within the rules anyway and the top competitors tend to have major (762) and minor (556) rigs already anyway so it's just a question which one is the safe queen, so the real question for me is that what do we do with the new competitors and punters: is it better to give people an incentive to raise up to the challenge to be proficient with a battle rifle or just meet them at their level and give points for shooting whatever. Surely the latter is the more popular route, but this also attaches in my mind to the discussion earlier in the video about match challenge: I guess there's a difference and a decision to be made whether you're running a match series to give people something to get better at shooting and say CQB, or are you running a series as a business in it self or to promote other (guns and/or ammo) business.
Its good to see Russel, he still look tad stressed(or tired?) in front of camera but its just nice to listen to him, as he know a lot. As for matches... people really forgot that its just fun time, not some must-have be-the-best event. I seriously think that everyone who go to match should... get gun that he dont know, really. Most of people that have new gun get more fun from it as he know that he not gonna be the best so he just spend time shooting for fun and practice with that new gun. As for evens like desert brutality... I wish they where brutal, like really just put people in metal cage for few hours in on the sun, make them run to range(maybe get some dogs to encourage them)... reload under pressure... Imagine all that adrenaline and memories.... Of course Im joking but it would be good to not water them down too much just to make it easier for few people...
Or....... Announcing the Chicago brutality match. Held in the dark, pistol only and you hold the gun sideways. Maybe add a stoned division, where you down three shots and burn a blunt first.....
I’m sympathetic to the push pull of accommodation for older or disabled individuals. I enjoy the physicality but I’m a disabled vet and I can’t shoot an event like desert brutality. I can shoot an IDPA match and just accept being slower and outside of the too tier but I was outside and shooting and whatever. So I’d shoot desert brutality if I could just DQ stages by doing what I can do and you keep my time and score and put me in the “shot for fun” category but if I try to throw those kettlebells I’d be unable to finish the stage and be done.
As a match director I can tell you exactly why 3 gun has less movement. The stages needed to be simpler so that the match ends in a reasonable time! Matches were lasting until 7pm and it was to late…
question. im into guns as a 2nd teir side hobbie. im interested in gun comps as a fun event kind of thing. but the only thing I have is currently a 10/22 rile. what all is needed as a Minimum for just basic gear?
Unless there’s been an update; all we know is he had hundreds of firearms seized. It incredibly difficult to get seized property back from the government. They can outspend you. They will charge you with something then make you bargain for dismissal by surrendering claims to your property. It is quite common for such a seizure to precede criminal charges. When you’re up against .gov it’s not about winning or losing its about how bad do you lose. I wish Larry the best; if there’s anyone that could win in such a situation it’s him with his resources and connections.
Not personally a big fan of Vickers but word is ATF "valued" his machineguns at $1000, silencers at $100 and ammo at 10c a round...Something very, very fucky is going on here and it smells more and more like he is straight up being railroaded.
Any links to the black hawk down match? Was going to ask you guys to do one but then Russell mentioned it's already been done. I've never seen that footage but really enjoy BHD/Mogadishu historically
I know it was outside the scope of the question at 29:03 and that most people watching this are Americans, but I wished Karl talked about areas outside the US (such as my country of New Zealand) with even more restrictive gun laws and how people there could run matches.
If you was going to do a bigger pcc round than pistol because of spinners or some such I'd say that you would want to skip the barely hotter than 9 stuff like .45 acp or .40 and go straight to much hotter than 9 stuff like 10mm, .45 super, .460 Rowland, .45 win mag etc
@@toddwebb7521 you’re still competing against people using 9mm. There aren’t enough heavy set targets at almost any match to make up for the lower capacity and more sight picture disruption. Even in USPSA all PCCs are scored as minor power factor on paper so there’s really nothing being gained there.
@@SinistralRifleman I actually tend to agree with you that 9is probably the best I'm just saying if there's any edge case where maybe you can get something out of something bigger it's going to be something much bigger not barely bigger.
I know that at the St. George range the wall of doom or whatever it is called I cannot go right to left, but I can do left to right. I it gets ignored at DB2021.
Where I live cas have taken away movement because of safety, most people don't train movement so there was a lot of stuff like dropping loaded firearms, barrels pointing in the wrong direction and a few accidental discharges... but it looks pretty boring now 😖
Loophole abuse is acceptable as long as it fits the 'I'm not even mad' criteria. Basic rules lawyer shit? 'Get out of here.' REALLY WEIRD CREATIVE INTERESTING, but still inherently safe and definitely getting banned next match? 'I'm not even mad...'
I've always wanted to do 2gun or even three gun but the cost of ammo, inaccessibility/cost of matches where I live in CA has made them virtually Inaccessible to me. It's all I can afford to keep up my basic skills. Unless the current cost of ammo/components comes back down to reason there will probably be more people in the same boat.
In 3 year increments life happens. A bachlor competitor gets married or moves back east on a job transfer, or like me moves back and can enjoy shooting again...
PANTS! My experience in the infantry and in civilian life: Just go for any decently baggy pair of cargo pants which doesn't cost too much. As these two gents said, eventually your balls will receive fresh air, so don't overspend. Bonus points for wearing a Kilt & sporran, I guess... Edit: just make sure they don't chafe!
Sporting clays are great fun. Well the walk through the woods from station to station style is. Trap ranges converted into sporting clays is kinda meh.
@@InrangeTv damn it’s a blast literally damn shame it’s the last one what’s worse still is I have to work and I’ll get fired if I call in so RIP knob creek
I was thinking about the ultra high capacity magazine question. Why? It seems wasteful Why not have a stage where it is part of the stage to reload? Or a stage like where you hide a target in some dead ground well hidden then the participants mag dump in the direction till they hear hit.
Some matches do that where you start with 5 (or 1) rounds in the magazine to force a reload as part of the sequence. I've seen some where you remove your mag, take a single shot at a target, and then move with a demonstrated empty weapon. It's a function of what skills do you want to test and then designing the stages around those skills.
By the end I thought Karl and Russell were about to spontaneously combust they were both so red. Guessing they switch off A/C to prevent any background noise.
@@daathseverus it was clear skies and sunny the day this was filmed and in the mid 90s. 8 hours of sunlight still makes my skin redden at 90 or 110; it’s just a matter of how much water is required to not die.
Am I the only one with this weird image of someone breaking into Russel's house only to come face to face with him wearing nothing but a plate carrier (I mean absolutely nothing), and charging to the rearward at best possible speed?
Do you guys make box mag fed shotguns compete in an open/mod category, or do you guys let them run against tube feds? Cus I’ve competed in a couple matches in open division when they let you literally do anything you want to your gun- including putting a 20 round drum on it 😂
Can we get Russell to do a 2GACM with a patreon/audience curated load out? I wanna see how his overall skills translate to a random set of rifles and pistols
@@InrangeTv Makes sense, I can see how it fragments the market instead of broadening it. Maybe it would be a good answer in areas with more firearms restrictions.
Might be more viable with wild bunch rules on equipment than typical cowboy. Think how many people there are that don't have a single action revolver but may well have a lever action rifle and a 1911
Maybe if you wanted inspiration from wild bunch but since 2gacm isn't affiliated with SASS do up to 1934 (since the first double stack the browning high power comes around in 1935) and instead of just 1911s that opens up most of the single stack autos including the Luger and Tokarev some blowbacks like Walther PP, and FN 1910. Maybe allow double action revolver if someone wants to try and run a 1917.
@@cheesebuger13 if I was in a Warsaw pact state I think id rather have a regular Winchester lever action than some goofy modified to be 10 round non removable version of a semi
October 2021 Q&A
1:21 Less movement in shooting matches over time?
6:56 Different shooters/turnover at competitions?
11:38 How does a complete novice get into competitive shooting? (Like DB?)
13:33 Shotting stages: practicality vs fun themes?
15:15 Wasteland Shuffle Rules for shotgun or lever action?
16:39 Do other people bring crappy (value) guns to backup guns matches, or just you?
17:50 Dangerous wildlife on a match?
19:00 How do you grow attendance at matches?
20:23 Score compensation for caliber?
23:12 Gear races?
25:34 How important is it to match calibers between your PCC and handgun in a PCC match?
26:57 Good clothing for tactical events?
29:03 Changes for running a 2G ACM in a gun control state? (i.e. magazine limits)
30:29 Your favorite high-middle-low LPVO’s and red dot’s for 2Gun competitions?
33:52 Reconsider allowing braced/stocked pistols in armored division?
38:55 What are your goals for competitive shooting to stay motivated and focused?
40:16 What sort of match would you suggest for percussion revolvers?
41:10 Are Magpul 40 round mags a net benefit over 30 rounders?
42:35 Is shooting black powder a disadvantage over smokeless at a Cowboy Action Match?
43:12 My new Magpul D60 sucks. Is this your experience?
44:42 Partisan instead of Scout? Reasons behind this change?
46:28 Considered drone footage at matches?
47:12 Competition with muzzleloaders?
48:00 DB2021; logistical challenges with setting up at a new facility every year?
49:45 I signed up for Cold War Division at DB; shooting irons for first time in a competition. Advice?
51:15 Loopholes and bending the rules in match design?
52:19 Cold War DMR; semiauto at 3 MOA, 20 rounds or bolt action 1 MOA, 5 rounds?
53:38 Is armored required to carry all ammo and firearms through the entire event?
54:11 Generally, what gear should be avoided at DB2021?
55:37 Karl, your blunderbuss trap video was awesome. Did you ever shoot trap competitively?
56:41 What physical training is beneficial for dynamic shooting matches?
57:41 Any chance for a Monster Hunter or Halloween theme shotgun match?
appreciated!
Thanks for this guide.
You didn't save a life today but you did save an hour of over 20,000 lives...
Thank you Sir.
What a hero -- Merry Christmas!
It's cool to see Russel get more comfortable with the camera. He has a shit ton of knowledge to share.
I was about to say the same thing, instead I will up vote you.
always good to see him on inrange when he's not posting on his
will be interesting seeing more of Kevin as well. Blunderbuss skeeting sounds like Karl's thing loool
Yeah, his passion for this topic really shines through here, making him far more animated.
I don't think he's ever really been uncomfortable "with the camera," I think it's more like when he's at inrangetv he's at work and he takes this shit very seriously. And we like him for that exact reason
Thank you Karl and Russell, my WWSD 2020 rifle arrived and I'm taking it out this weekend to shoot it. Very excited.
I have to agree with how you are running the Brutality matches. My old Army-worn knees may never allow me to be competitive in those events, but I'd gladly try one out to say I did it (and just not walk much the week after).
Man that tiger stripe KP15 with the xm177 moderator is making my wallet fear for its safety.
Tell your wallet it's fine. It's just a WWSD not a KAC or Radian. It's like half the price. *shhhhh* just let it happen.
My wife mysteriously texted me “no” out of thin air. Lol.
That is pretty. 😍
@@raifsevrence those WWSDs are like $1600 so pretty much in the ballpark of the top tier brands.
@@MX5autoxer I know the cost of the wwsd well enough. $1,600 is up into the better names, but it's not top tier money. There are lots of kac,radian,lwrc piston guns, geiselles, lmt, pof, noveske etc. There's a lot of rifles out there that sit in a higher tier than wwsd.
LOL on the clothing discussion. Totally agree.
I jump military static line parachutes for fun, and the only reason we all wear camo for practice jumps is really we can get inexpensive (or already have, from serving) military issue fatigue pants that are durable, comfortable, and have good range of motion. Unless you're abnormally large, you can get milsurp multicam ACUs for less than Levis (and UCP digital pixelgrau for dirt cheap). And you don't care about dirt and grass stains on camo.
Timestamps
1:21 - Orian H.: Why do you think the natural progression of matches, namely cowboy action and 3-gun tend to include less and less movement over time
6:55 - 3 Lock: How often do you see shooters turnover
11:36 - Kurosawa FTW Seven: How do a complete novice get into competitive shooting
13:31 - William F: Do you prefer themed or non-themed matches
15:14 - RGB: With the Wasteland Shuffle distributed match, would you consider making a ruleset for shotguns or lever-action rifles
16:38 - E Raha: Are there any other people bring crappy guns to backup gun matches
17:49 - Micheal S: Have you encountered any dangerous animals in any of your matches
19:00 - Alex P: How do you entice people who are hesistant to shoot in a competitive environment to come and try it? Or what do you think would be an effective method to grow attendance at matches
20:24 - Jordan W: Should matches have score compensation for calibers
23:11 - Joey: What do you feel about gear races
24:35 - Matthew B: How important is it to matche calibers of your pistols and PCCs
26:56 - August: What do you consider good clothing for tactical events
29:03 - Robert H.: What changes do you recommend for your stage designs in jurisdictions with strict gun laws
30:29 - N7 Shepherd: What are your 2 favourite high, middle, low-end, red dot and LPVO for 2gun
33:52 - Stephen W: Would you reconsider allowing stocked pistols into armoured division
38:55 - Brian I: What are your goals in competitive shooting that keep you focused and motivated
40:15 - Andy Echo: What sort of matches would you come up with to allow people to use and have fun with percussion revolvers
41:09 - Adam S: Are the 40-round magpul magazines a net gain in competitions compared to 30s
42:36 - Tristan R: Would you saying shooting black powder in a cowboy action match is an disadvantage compared to smokeless
43:12 - Tristan R: I got problems with my D60s, did you encounter any problems with them
44:41 - Matthew J: I noticed partisan instead of scout in DB2021, what was the reason behind it
46:29 - James B: Have you consider using drones to film matches
47:12 - Marlene: Have you done any compeitions using muzzle-loaders
47:59 - Paul S: What logostical challenges have you found with changing venue every year for Desert Brutality
49:45 - Mauzer Dude: Do you have any advice for shooting iron-sighted rifles in a competition
51:14 - Faze: Do you spend much time thinking how people might exploit the rules or loopholes or assume they would play it straight
52:19 - Chase C: Would it better to use a scoped autoloading magfed DMR with 3 moa or a manually loaded 1 moa bolt-action
53:38 - Boyd A: Is amoured division in DB2021 required to carry all 3 firearms and all ammo throughout the entire event
53:13 - Jotum Skip: What type of gear/gun/accesories that should be avoided when shooting Desert Brutality
55:38 - Patrick H: Did you ever shoot trap skeet competitvely
56:41 - Flip K: What training beside shooting training is benefictial to taking part in dynamic shooting matches
57:41 - Eric S: Any chance for a monster hunter or any halloween themed match
Note: The questions are paraphrased for brevity. Also Russell is using up his annual quota of expressions in this single video
Much appreciated.
Thanks for this!
One of my pet peeves about cowboy action is the loading down ammo to unnaturally light levels for reduced recoil.
You know the people doing that would be running the hottest plus p they can get if they was using it for defense instead of competition.
I think you should have velocity of at least the short of your cal to be in anyway realistic.
Would they, though? You cannot afford to have a problem with your firearm, so if you expect to be shooting at close ranges would you not skimp? Leaving aside the cost savings.
Cowboy action was never about defense it's about dressing up and playing cowboy in a "competitive" environment. As with anything where score is kept some will take it serious and try to win.
Same thing is done in regular competition, that's why you have the power factor rules, and so many competitors doing weird caliber tricks to game the system to have the lightest recoil for that power factor. Like running long loaded .40s with heavy bullets out of 2011s to meet the power factor of .45 with higher capacity and lower recoil. It still takes skill to climb up the leaderboards, though.
blackpowder shooters are the best, bring on the smoke
@@CCW1911 well if they are gonna dress the part it seems they should shoot the part too. Either use black powder or load to equivalent levels, not mouse fart loads
Thanks Karl and Russel that was a really interesting Q&A.
Worth waiting for Karl and Russell!
My typical day:
•Wake Up
•Think of 2G ACM / Brutality Matches
•Strategize 2G ACM / Brutality Matches
•Plan for 2G ACM / Brutality Matches
•Evaluate equipment and gear for 2G ACM / Brutality Matches
•Watch videos about 2G ACM and Brutality Matches
•Cheese
•Sleep
Great Q&A! Very timely for my purposes, since I'm trying to get back into competitive shooting! Both of y'all have a wealth of knowledge to share, and it comes through easily here. I appreciate the patience each of you has to answer these questions, many of which you have likely dealt with before in wearing your many hats associated with all aspects of competitive shooting. Karl is a criminally under-appreciated, personable, caring, and passionate jewel to the gun-owning community and I feel his efforts to change our weird subculture for the better far away from his home in AZ. I'm also glad to see Russell continue to do more stuff with InRange- his expertise combined with his laid back attitude make for a good watch, and he never comes off as a know-it-all, only as a helpful and kind friend. Y'all keep up the great work.
My parent's motto was "Life's not fair." But, "We considered fair and decided against it" sounds better.
The competition scene in upstate NY is actually pretty robust! All the ranges are generally quite small, so we only have pistol/PCC stuff, but there are many UPSPA, IPDA, or action pistol matches every weekend in the Syracuse / Rochester / Binghamton area.
As a consequence of our requirement for a license to own a pistol up here, the PCC divisions of these competitions are pretty large as well, both for older shooters and for people who don't have their pistol license yet (like me)
I've had a blast competing in matches over the past year up here. Definitely a fun scene, even if the average age of shooters is... quite high.
I'll have to get in touch with you when I'm back in the country, then. Might convince a few friends to come along if I do.
This might be my favorite Q&A yet. This was awesome to watch!
Really enjoying seeing Russell come out of his shell a little bit.
We just got done shooting a match. Serotonin levels higher temporarily.
@@SinistralRifleman Take a compliment Russell lol. Excellent having you on here.
Yeah- he’s kind of a clam sometimes. I think he might be camera shy
The "conversation" about High Power really contains a good portion of (unintended?) comedy 😂
The sneeze for example or Russell's reaction in form of one word answers to the "boring" topic really got me.
yall look mighty tired, i hope the match was fun! thanks for all the hard work as always.
An old martial arts instructor of mine said that your true competition is with yourself. People who get that improve, and people who don't, stop showing up.
NIce to see the AR with the warm friendly safe brown furniture.....obviously a much safer gun than the black ones....
The company that made the original Battle Dress Uniform back in the Eighties, Proper International, still sells BDUs for $30 a pair. Just as good now as it was 40 years ago.
Just bought 4 sets not long ago. More robust than any of my modern tactical pants!
Thank you gentlemen, especially liked the vibe
I feel like this is a silly question, but is it possible to just spectate matches to see how it all works without actually participating?
Yes. Bring eye and hearing protection.
I'd ask individual matches, just to make sure, but usually yes.
I might be a Florida Man,but I would thank the most dangerous animal yall have ever encountered at a match is homo sapiens.
Truth
those Halloween shotgun matches have been fun, I hope there will be a video for it!
IPSC Rifle does have power factor, but its largely limited by stage design, outside of some of the outlier Scandinavian matches the target presentations are not challenging enough to show a difference in power factor. in IPSC its less a matter of how many shots you shoot between minor and major, because the scoring requires the same minimum shots regardless of calibre/power factor, the difference lies in non-perfect hits scoring with non A zone hits worth more in major, so if you can push a lot faster with major power factor, you can make up for less A zone hits with better times, hence Open division in IPSC/USPSA handgun matches. With IPSC Rifle, everything is a laser with almost no recoil so its just a matter of speed so power factor has become largely irrelevant sadly.
Also, gotta say this is the most emotive I've seen Russel in ages, glad to see the terminator has been downloading those firmware updates. Good stuff as always Karl!
Love the Q&A's and thanks to this one I've decided to take the plunge and signed up for my first Steel Challenge match. I feel I've got the accuracy down but I never shot on a clock so who knows what will happen. I'm just hoping to enjoy myself and learn some new skills.
Good luck!
I'd rather do a difficult match and fail MISERABLY than know i'm "competitive" at some watered down swill...
i rather have a nice chill "match" than a competition. everybody has their own preferences and due to my body being completely fucked up i prefer not to risk injury just for "being number 1". edit: they said it better. :D
I completly agree with you but it is somewhat the same as with video games now.
Lot of people, not you and me, prefer that watered down difficulty to some good challange.
Especially when it comes to something simulating a practical survival skill. "ooh I can't do this match because I'm 80lbs overweight", you might as well just stick to the indoor range lanes because you immobilized yourself with unhealthy habits.
Phagan is looking great!! Keep it up all.
Regarding scoring compensation for caliber, something interesting could be to have "armored" targets. The common practice of black-taping an IPSC cardboard target could be made more interesting than "hit/miss". For example, a rifle caliber anywhere on the target could be scored appropriately as "hits" even on tape, but a pistol caliber (or shotshell) would only count hits in the non-taped area (as is traditional).
Yeah have a rifle plate sized taped on the"armored" targets where a potentially NIJ IV with AP caliber can score the hit in the tape but a intermediate or pistol caliber has to either double tap outside the tape or headshot
I knew Russell was a big guy but he’s jacked here! Great video, very interesting
Thanks so much!
You're welcome!
Not everyone can swing a 50lb kettlebell, but Russell is over here flexing his 28in biceps. We get it, not all of us can be Russell.
Yeah seriously! Dude is huge in the right way
I respect the hell out of (hehe) sticking to your guns on the ethos of brutality matches. It’s good to try and include more people, but not if it means giving up the original goal.
Q&As with guests are my favorite.
12:39 this applies to running matches too A local range reached out to me because they wanted to have their first competition I was hoping they wanted to do steel challenge or maybe uspsa, no they wanted to run a 2 gun match in the middle of July in Louisiana. Me and some guys from our USPSA club helped them set everything up the match ran well. When they first announced it their membership was all about it but in the end the majority of people that showed up were me and my people they have not had another match since they learned real quick how much work it is to run.
20:10 I started shooting USPSA with my carry rig only thing I changed was I tucked my shirt in I carry AIWB so everyone kept making cracks about me shooting off my junk not knowing I had done force on force from that position. I tell the new shooters don't buy anything major for at least 6 months and thats if you shoot a match every month getting a double belt a more optimal holster and mag pouches is okay but we have guys that shoot one match then each subsequent match have something different when they should just spend money on ammo and a range membership
Thanks IRTV
Gonna run it with a infantry length mosin, a cavalry length mosin and an obrez
I hope Russel will be involved in futher Q&As as well. So much knowlage for shooting....
Thanks
Brilliant video!
I was surprised at the turnover rate of competitive shooters. In my limited experience it seems like the rate is not so fast in distance running, competitive cycling or climbing; the activities I have some experience with. I’m at an age where competitive shooting will not be my reality but if it were I would want to participate in a structure just like the one(s) you create. I love that you both are so open to experimentation, reassessment and change.
There is the "It's no longer fun/logisticaly viable for me" turnover and "I can't do it anymore for health reasons" turnover. It's usually the former in shooting. If you check olympic-style (ISSF) shooting, it's normal to see people in their late 50s or 60s.
Thanks gents
It would be quite weird to have a match called "brutality" that is designed with accessibility in mind.
The name itself suggests that it would be physically demanding. Like exhausting for the physically fit participants.
I shot Zombies in the Heartland match This year and one person on my squad was a paraplegic. Afghan war vet. He was in a tracked motorized "chair" that could lift him to a standing position. He was never going to win, but every accommodation was made to him in order for him to complete the stages. That included letting him shoot stages differently.
Start with everyone with an assumed age of 120 years
Now go through the course and subtract the points gained so a 20 year old has 100 deducted.
RE allowing stocked pistols / pistol derived chassis SBRs / smaller PDWs... what about saying that it's allowed but it also counts as your carbine as well as your pistol? Then the benefit is easier "pistol" stages but the cost is a crappier "carbine" on those stages. Maybe make that a "PDW" division restricted to 1 weapon shooting pistol or PDW rounds that has to be less than a certain overall length? (Or that plus a DMR for desert brutality - carrying a PDW in addition to a big old DMR sounds like a realistic thing too vs DMR + carbine + pistol)
I have no idea what you're talking about. Something about snakes vs. spiders and .308 is better than 5.56 (duh). But I'm hypnotized by that BRN-10. Damn, that thing is sexy. Seriously. Wow.
I mirror Russell's perspective on coupled vs stendo rifle mags. I just don't see enough gain with a $150 drum over $30 for a pair of coupled 30s
Karl. Sad when you say in my opinion...but I understand why . Your guys keep up the great work. Tell us more about the camo rifle on the table
So you advise to use a .308/6.5 rifle in partizan due to 600 yd engagements on the match. Seeing as how you say (generally) that the courses are designed to be completed with an iron sighted ak, how doomed would I be using an intermediate cartridge rifle?
Iron Sight AK is the standard for rifle/carbine targets.
The standard for DMR targets being doable is a Dargunov with 4x scope
"We considered 'Fair', and decided against it." :D
Walmart has semi stretchy jeans for about 12$ a pair… for those of us who are cheap and only wear pants because it’s illegal not too.
QA are my favorite type of videos!!
The short answer to question 3 "How does a complete novice get into competitive shooting?" is
"Show up to a match."
Just out of curiosity how much would an all carbon fiber rifle or all titanium rifle weight?
That's a very interesting discussion to me as a relatively new casual competitor in IPSC and 3gun: as for the power factor, is it really a problem if people gravitate to 308/762x51, I mean at least in IPSC if you're in it to win it, you'll game it any way you can within the rules anyway and the top competitors tend to have major (762) and minor (556) rigs already anyway so it's just a question which one is the safe queen, so the real question for me is that what do we do with the new competitors and punters: is it better to give people an incentive to raise up to the challenge to be proficient with a battle rifle or just meet them at their level and give points for shooting whatever. Surely the latter is the more popular route, but this also attaches in my mind to the discussion earlier in the video about match challenge: I guess there's a difference and a decision to be made whether you're running a match series to give people something to get better at shooting and say CQB, or are you running a series as a business in it self or to promote other (guns and/or ammo) business.
Its good to see Russel, he still look tad stressed(or tired?) in front of camera but its just nice to listen to him, as he know a lot.
As for matches... people really forgot that its just fun time, not some must-have be-the-best event. I seriously think that everyone who go to match should... get gun that he dont know, really. Most of people that have new gun get more fun from it as he know that he not gonna be the best so he just spend time shooting for fun and practice with that new gun.
As for evens like desert brutality... I wish they where brutal, like really just put people in metal cage for few hours in on the sun, make them run to range(maybe get some dogs to encourage them)... reload under pressure...
Imagine all that adrenaline and memories....
Of course Im joking but it would be good to not water them down too much just to make it easier for few people...
Lol. "The shooting scene in New York" sounds like a headline you don't want to be associated with.
Or....... Announcing the Chicago brutality match. Held in the dark, pistol only and you hold the gun sideways. Maybe add a stoned division, where you down three shots and burn a blunt first.....
I’m sympathetic to the push pull of accommodation for older or disabled individuals. I enjoy the physicality but I’m a disabled vet and I can’t shoot an event like desert brutality. I can shoot an IDPA match and just accept being slower and outside of the too tier but I was outside and shooting and whatever. So I’d shoot desert brutality if I could just DQ stages by doing what I can do and you keep my time and score and put me in the “shot for fun” category but if I try to throw those kettlebells I’d be unable to finish the stage and be done.
As a match director I can tell you exactly why 3 gun has less movement. The stages needed to be simpler so that the match ends in a reasonable time! Matches were lasting until 7pm and it was to late…
Reduce the amount of attendees instead.
You had me at "crotch blow out extreme". Now that sounds like a party!
question.
im into guns as a 2nd teir side hobbie.
im interested in gun comps as a fun event kind of thing. but the only thing I have is currently a 10/22 rile.
what all is needed as a Minimum for just basic gear?
Hard things are worth doing, I love watching video of the competitions you guys do. Sadism runs deep in me :)
Hey Karl, are you talking about blackpowder Kevin at 56:30?
Dmr carbine and pistol sounds like a blast!! Too bad you guys are way too far away for me to travel.
If you wish to keep the sport true to original. Gatekeep and stay true. It doesn't need to be for everyone
It’s not exclusive if you don’t exclude.
True, unlike current trends dilution does not make anything stronger.
What do you think about Larry Vickers situation?
Unless there’s been an update; all we know is he had hundreds of firearms seized.
It incredibly difficult to get seized property back from the government. They can outspend you. They will charge you with something then make you bargain for dismissal by surrendering claims to your property. It is quite common for such a seizure to precede criminal charges. When you’re up against .gov it’s not about winning or losing its about how bad do you lose.
I wish Larry the best; if there’s anyone that could win in such a situation it’s him with his resources and connections.
Not personally a big fan of Vickers but word is ATF "valued" his machineguns at $1000, silencers at $100 and ammo at 10c a round...Something very, very fucky is going on here and it smells more and more like he is straight up being railroaded.
@@modulo3664 the government always under values seized property. It limits the damages if they lose.
Blunderbuss sporting clays please!
Is Russel getting more comfortable with the camera? Or have I been locked up too long that I don't remember how to socialize?
Any links to the black hawk down match? Was going to ask you guys to do one but then Russell mentioned it's already been done. I've never seen that footage but really enjoy BHD/Mogadishu historically
Here’s the playlist ua-cam.com/play/PLzg6Wz5zlqz80T3DfTfiPAl7spns5adoi.html
@@SinistralRifleman thanks Russell! I'll give it a look as soon as I'm done with this Vid. Hope you're doing well.
I know it was outside the scope of the question at 29:03 and that most people watching this are Americans, but I wished Karl talked about areas outside the US (such as my country of New Zealand) with even more restrictive gun laws and how people there could run matches.
29:03 Plenty of no pistol grip options for ban states. I'll be there in November with one.
If you was going to do a bigger pcc round than pistol because of spinners or some such I'd say that you would want to skip the barely hotter than 9 stuff like .45 acp or .40 and go straight to much hotter than 9 stuff like 10mm, .45 super, .460 Rowland, .45 win mag etc
Those would all not be cost/recoil effective for everything else you have to shoot.
@@SinistralRifleman a round that's a handful in a pistol is nothing in a rifle.
@@toddwebb7521 you’re still competing against people using 9mm. There aren’t enough heavy set targets at almost any match to make up for the lower capacity and more sight picture disruption.
Even in USPSA all PCCs are scored as minor power factor on paper so there’s really nothing being gained there.
@@SinistralRifleman I actually tend to agree with you that 9is probably the best I'm just saying if there's any edge case where maybe you can get something out of something bigger it's going to be something much bigger not barely bigger.
I know that at the St. George range the wall of doom or whatever it is called I cannot go right to left, but I can do left to right. I it gets ignored at DB2021.
This is at the Cobalt Kinetics range not SUPS
@@SinistralRifleman That's good. One thing, I can't find the range. 4700 E Washington, UT is a point on a dirt road east of the airport.
Where I live cas have taken away movement because of safety, most people don't train movement so there was a lot of stuff like dropping loaded firearms, barrels pointing in the wrong direction and a few accidental discharges... but it looks pretty boring now 😖
Loophole abuse is acceptable as long as it fits the 'I'm not even mad' criteria.
Basic rules lawyer shit? 'Get out of here.'
REALLY WEIRD CREATIVE INTERESTING, but still inherently safe and definitely getting banned next match? 'I'm not even mad...'
I've always wanted to do 2gun or even three gun but the cost of ammo, inaccessibility/cost of matches where I live in CA has made them virtually Inaccessible to me. It's all I can afford to keep up my basic skills. Unless the current cost of ammo/components comes back down to reason there will probably be more people in the same boat.
In 3 year increments life happens. A bachlor competitor gets married or moves back east on a job transfer, or like me moves back and can enjoy shooting again...
PANTS!
My experience in the infantry and in civilian life: Just go for any decently baggy pair of cargo pants which doesn't cost too much. As these two gents said, eventually your balls will receive fresh air, so don't overspend.
Bonus points for wearing a Kilt & sporran, I guess...
Edit: just make sure they don't chafe!
Sporting clays are great fun. Well the walk through the woods from station to station style is. Trap ranges converted into sporting clays is kinda meh.
Gosh Karl. I kick myself every time I see one of those Retro AR 10's. Should have picked one up When they were affordable.
I hope you’re coming to Knob Creek this weekend it’s the last one ever
I am not. Never been, actually.
@@InrangeTv damn it’s a blast literally damn shame it’s the last one what’s worse still is I have to work and I’ll get fired if I call in so RIP knob creek
Russell may be a hermit crab, his right arm looks huge compared to his left
I was thinking about the ultra high capacity magazine question.
Why? It seems wasteful
Why not have a stage where it is part of the stage to reload?
Or a stage like where you hide a target in some dead ground well hidden then the participants mag dump in the direction till they hear hit.
Some matches do that where you start with 5 (or 1) rounds in the magazine to force a reload as part of the sequence. I've seen some where you remove your mag, take a single shot at a target, and then move with a demonstrated empty weapon. It's a function of what skills do you want to test and then designing the stages around those skills.
By the end I thought Karl and Russell were about to spontaneously combust they were both so red. Guessing they switch off A/C to prevent any background noise.
I think they just had a day in the sun - probably shooting matches!
All day in the AZ sun shooting Red Oktober.
@@SinistralRifleman yeah. Been cloudy her in az and only 90 degrees. Not hot at all.
@@daathseverus it was clear skies and sunny the day this was filmed and in the mid 90s. 8 hours of sunlight still makes my skin redden at 90 or 110; it’s just a matter of how much water is required to not die.
Russell is looking goooood
Hearing the reasoning behind partisan suddenly hits Very Different
Am I the only one with this weird image of someone breaking into Russel's house only to come face to face with him wearing nothing but a plate carrier (I mean absolutely nothing), and charging to the rearward at best possible speed?
we had fun at IDARM even with it being crazy hot
Do you guys make box mag fed shotguns compete in an open/mod category, or do you guys let them run against tube feds? Cus I’ve competed in a couple matches in open division when they let you literally do anything you want to your gun- including putting a 20 round drum on it 😂
They are usually open division only
I want .308 Winchester surefire's version of the Ultimax 100
If I lived somewhere with mag restrictions, I would go with my Mini-14 with a ten round mag and stripper clip adapter.
VZ58 liberty.... sks clips, pinned 10rd mag, all evil featues allowed, 1lb lighter than an ak and more accurate.
when did carl get on the magnifier train, i could of sworn that he said they were not worth it???
9:19 Bless you
Can we get Russell to do a 2GACM with a patreon/audience curated load out? I wanna see how his overall skills translate to a random set of rifles and pistols
That weapon at the front omg I'm salivating but sad as I'm a brit
we can own them, they just have to be mutilated into manual action though.....sad noises
So Partisan division is literally just playing as a scav in Tarkov.
Need Cowboy Brutality matches.
I would LOVE to do that but there's almost no market.
@@InrangeTv Makes sense, I can see how it fragments the market instead of broadening it. Maybe it would be a good answer in areas with more firearms restrictions.
Might be more viable with wild bunch rules on equipment than typical cowboy.
Think how many people there are that don't have a single action revolver but may well have a lever action rifle and a 1911
Maybe if you wanted inspiration from wild bunch but since 2gacm isn't affiliated with SASS do up to 1934 (since the first double stack the browning high power comes around in 1935) and instead of just 1911s that opens up most of the single stack autos including the Luger and Tokarev some blowbacks like Walther PP, and FN 1910. Maybe allow double action revolver if someone wants to try and run a 1917.
Participants must supply their own horse
Wait….is that Julian from trailer park boys?!
No.
Sweet! I was wondering
I've lived in New York my whole life, and I wouldn't touch competitive shooting unless I move out of state.
Could possibly do cowboy action with the allowed stuff in that Warsaw pact state
@@toddwebb7521 That's a possiblity
People shoot IPSC in Great Britain, if you want to bad enough you will find a way.
@@cheesebuger13 if I was in a Warsaw pact state I think id rather have a regular Winchester lever action than some goofy modified to be 10 round non removable version of a semi
That comment about guns that are not zeroed especially at 500 yards. It did not aged well :D
I am laughing because I been there and done that too
So for a .470 NE one hit kills 3 targets 😃