The weirdest thing in my opinion is that there is actually a fence around the park already. Thus the discussion has no sense from the beginning. The question should rather be "Should we close the gates at night?" (or maybe "Should we fortify the existing fence?")
Very well done! Are you working on a video about Frau Klette? It's been pretty huge news in Germany, but kinda drowned in international press, among all the other trouble around the globe.
My own experience from once crossing the park was that people were openly dealing there in broad daylight. And regardless whether there is the park when I used the U-Bahn station I was openly approached by a dealer IN the station. Certainly one of worst spots in Berlin.
@@holger_pIt's the way you get asked. I felt unsafe at that moment. As for asking for the time that sounds harmless enough but you might consider the type of person and environment before showing your Rolex or iPhone.
@@MartinBrenner Probably there aren't much people with Rolex or iPhone in Germany. I would just ignore them and pass on. Don't know how dealer relate to thefts.
Honstly from someone whos parents used to live there and still knows a lot of pepeole around there it acualy seems to have gotten better. but the damm genrtification made it a bigger issue
Same crime happens at another place, nothing changes. The nonsense is: Nobody has a use of a crime free park, cause nobody is allowed to go in the park. It's not worth anything.
How would they even plan to keep criminals away and allow law-abiding citizens in? Having guards at the gate to search everyone wanting to enter the park?
Similar discussions happening about Primrose Hill park in North London; which had some nighttime issues including criminality during the pandemic (it was one of the few open spaces available in the evenings where people could sometimes legally congregate) But not as bad as Görlitzer Park in Berlin it would seem
Good on Berliners for objecting to this: inclosure of public spaces in the name of "safety" has been going on unchecked in England & nobody seems to have the confidence to oppose the authorities' designs. There's just no Blitz Spirit left: if we make concessions to criminals, then we're allowing ourselves to be controlled by fear, and that is not morally right. The number of crimes does not give the full picture of how safe a place is: if the crimes are predictable & easy to steer clear of, then it is safer. Fencing the parks is not going to achieve what I believe every city's goal should be: a provincial Norwegian city wherein everybody can go anywhere at any hour without worrying about crime. I find the police in most western cities don't seem to be doing much to get us any closer: they're not fighting the good fight, in other words. Alas, it's cheaper & wins more points for the governing party to mildly inconvenience criminals as a form of revenge, & never mind the collateral damage. The whip remains in his hand who wields it while the carrot is eaten & consumed. Destruction is quick, easy & exhilarating while creation is slow, laborious & dull.
Here in New York - Long Island - it has become abundant. It is now such a hassle that even "wealthier" inhabitants revolt. See - because of a stupid fence "against crime and for security" some stations of the Long Island Railroad (a bit like S-Bahn in Germany) are enclosed in such fences and people in the houses and buildings around wanting to take the train need to take 10-15 minutes of detour to get their albeit the station is literally next to the building and you see the trains from your window. In NYC that also happened with outerborough subway stations - you cannot just reach the stairs or the elevator to the station, but you need to walk around the whole block around to actually reach the stairs/elevator to the platforms. They shut off the stair/elevator entrace from nearly all the surrounding blocks/buildings "for safety, for HOA, for .... 'keep the blacks out' " - like in many places of NYC.
8 місяців тому
@@digitalboy80 They can and they will. Just at other times, or outside the park. As long as drug dealers are there, and people buying from them exist, the problem will remain.
" There's just no blitz spirit left" in relation to a story in Berlin, 79 years is a long time to expect any spirit to exist. Apart from The Advocaat liquor from the Netherlands.
Closing a public park at night is very common in most places I've ever been to. Increasing police patrols and dealing with the social issues and causes are a lot less common on the troubles that result.
Firstly, it's forbidden to enter a park after dark in Berlin. Secondly, most Berliners (actually anyone living in a city) knows parks are dangerous places after dark. The real problem is that Berlin doesn't have enough police. They've tried to remedy this with an "Ordnungsamt" that has taken over policing parked traffic. But this has still not been enough.
8 місяців тому+4
Is it forbidden really? Never knew. As for the second... No? Parks are not dangerous unless there's a lack of control and care for them. Going to the park to meet up with friends or have a drink is common practice, day or night. And I'd wager %90 of park-goers don't get raped, robbed or beaten up.
@ I once got told off by a police officer for cycling through a park after dark. It's seems this is a bylaw in Berlin. BTW, the park in question has signs at the entrances telling visitors this. Of course people hang around in parks after dark, even in Berlin and mostly in summer, the police just look the other way. But not in deserted ones where bushes break lines of sight and have hidden corners. Your wager: So you're saying "only" 10% of park-goers get raped or beaten up? Nice to know.
As a Berliner, I"m for the fence. I once cycled to this park by accident and a gang surrounded me and asked if I want anything in English. I was sure they wanna rob me, but luckily they were only interested in selling some drugs (I was just a teen back then). Having a lawless place attracts even more crime. I can understand that closing the park at night isn't the final solution, but combining it w. better treatment of drug addicts and better monitoring of crime hotspors, could definietely help.
Social programs to tackle drug dependency, affordable housing (subsidized for the particularly vulnerable) and homeless shelters, supervised injection rooms, safe houses for women, better provision of psychiatric care... all kinds of things of that nature, really.
@@rewboss I agree. But they all cost a lot of money. The willingness to invest in such quality measures for the common folk is decreading rapidly. Thus, a harsh society like in America is encroaching upon us.
Simple solution….Decriminalise ALL drugs. Yes, some of these drugs do harm the users. However, nowhere near as many people are harmed by them as are harmed by the so-called ‘War on Drugs’. A ‘war’ that can and could be never be won and has claimed countless more victims and has caused more societal problems and suffering than the drugs themselves. This is not done because there are too many vested interests in perpetuating this ‘war’…..and their interests are not the wellbeing of the users.
Yeah, I've passed through Görlitzer park with my dog to get to the dog park inside of it. It felt unsafe for sure, even during the day. It's a messy situation, I don't think a fence would solve the issues that make this area what it is
in a nutshell: the protesters are right. Once you fence a place, criminality will just move to the surroundings. It's a complex problem where the State is trying to apply a simple (and cheap) solution, instead of putting more policemen on the streets with a law enforcement strategy. And preventing drug abuse is even better, tackling the root cause. EDIT: reading the comments about gentrification and such, I wonder if there's anything related to airbnb...
As the legalization does not include the system to acquire the drugs, the opposite will be the case and the "legal" black market will work even better as a cover for the market of hard drugs. That is the problem with half-measures.
It's really disappointing, how the politics works. I mean, no one is arguing about the crime statistics in the area and that it is exceptionally high, but the trigger for action is this one weird case, and doubts about this one isolated case, which for itself has no significance on the level of public decision making, can put on hold all the measures to solve the real crime problem.
One should take a look at the situation in Neukölln when discussing a fence around Görlitzer Park. Tempelhofer Feld has been fenced in since it's been opened to the public, and it is one of the safest parks in the city. On the other hand. Hasenheide Park is open all night It's a crime and drug hotspot and a constant nuisance because of noise, littering, and destruction of plant life, and hardly less dangerous than Görlitzer Park at night. I have to say, while I am generally all for many of the more liberal approaches Berlin takes, I have to agree with the idea that fencing in Görlitzer Park is worth a go. It's pretty obvious that a large, dark park at night is a lot harder to keep safe than busy neighbourhood streets. And I don't think that drug dealers will crowd the streets of Kreuzberg any more than they do already if the Görli is being closed at night, since their customers won't hang around there either. Görlitzer Park is not really a hard drug scene hangout, it's more the party people and adventure tourists creating a market for recreational drugs. They'll get their stuff at one of the other spots infamous for drug deals of that kind. Most of which are easier to control. You can't really end the drug trade by fencing in Görlitzer Park, but at least it would stop more serious crime in dark hidden places.
I've heard the "not rich enough to afford cheap things" multiple times here in Germany as well, but the "wer billig kauft, kauft zweimal" (he who buys cheap buys twice) seems far more common
The uncomfortable reality of the situation is that the park and surrounding area are considered 'territory' by drug gangs whose street-level dealers and enforcers are largely young African men. If you walk through these areas alone even in the middle of the day (again, the park *and* the street), you will be approached by such men who will attempt to sell you drugs. Sometimes this will happen from streetcorner to streetcorner, and sometimes even with a police car within view of the proceedings. I have intentionally diverted my path multiple times to avoid big groups of these people (borne of the uncomfortable experience of *not* having diverted my path). Residents of the area will tell you that mothers pushing baby carriages will stop to buy drugs in the middle of the daytime, though I must admit I haven't personally seen that. It is a shame. The park itself can be quite lovely, and when it is a special day is often filled with families of all faiths and ethnic backgrounds barbecuing and pursuing peaceful leisure. But on an "average" day, if you are not part of a group of three or more young strong men, the chances of being harassed by entrepreneurs of a particular trade and migrant background is quite high. The fact that these streets are often stenciled with exhortations, naturally in English, to "stop racial profiling" while police only intervene in the merest fraction of offenses which happen sometimes quite literally under their noses is also a bizarre experience, and one has to wonder how many of the charges for unlawful stay stem directly from the drug-deal arrests. What allegedly happened to the young lady in the park at night is horrible, but if the authorities and the community do not come together to curb this problem, it will keep getting worse until someone comes along who will solve it (and that in a way the current authorities and community may well not like). I sincerely hope these protests can lead to constructive community-building that helps to eradicate the drug gangs and leaves the area a safe and pleasant place to live and work for all of its inhabitants and visitors, from wherever they hail.
Maybe because I see some parks in and around Philadelphia that I think, compared to this example, areas in the US are much, much worse (at least near Philadelphia, in Brooklyn, besides the east side, generally parks are safe and family friendly
@@thehistorynerd8537 Well, yes, almost everywhere in Berlin is physically safer than almost anywhere in any decently-large American city (or Canadian or even French or British city for that matter). That is a given, and is no measure any European would be satisfied with. In other words, that Central Park is allegedly much worse than Görlitzer Park doesn't mean the situation in central Berlin is acceptable to the average German, or, increasingly, the average Berliner; you see a lot of fatalistic comments about the 'cesspit' that Kreuzberg in particular or Berlin in general have become, and for now this is a joke. But it is a joke with a dark edge, about the inevitable failures of multiethnic liberal democracy in the capital of Germany, and there is no small amount of danger implied by such dark humour. Again, I hope German liberal democrats (even the conservative ones) can actually solve this and many other problems that the city and country are facing; that they can show Germany's unprecedented increase in ethnic diversity in the last thirty (and especially the last ten) years does not mean necessarily and inevitably abandoning large swathes of German cities to what Germans consider lawless disorder and increasing physical (including sexual) violence. Because if German liberal democrats cannot do this, there are plenty of illiberal antidemocrats still around who'd be more than happy to give alternatives a try.
I would urge you to think about why being offered to buy drugs makes you divert your path. These people are not threatening you and have an incentive to not draw any attention to themselves in public. Do you also divert oyur path because people are asking for donations for charity? Or because they might want to sell you groveries?
Lol. Yeah, you hear a second-hand story about Görlitzer Park and think, yeah, that's Berlin, right? It's hilarious for someone who lived in this city for 50 years, what people imagine life looks like here.
@@karlkarlos3545 I've lived there for four years and hated every second of it, and I've known people whom have been utterly twisted by Berlin's dark underbelly. Don't assume shite you're projecting.
I’m pro fence altho yes it may be just treating the symptoms you can’t solve the big root cause in a day and so you mite as well try to minimise the symptoms. Also the closing of the park may increase crime in the roads but with an increase in police patrol in the area perhaps they could catch the crooks
This is simply untrue. A small number of parks are closed through the night, mainly in London, they are usually as poorly kept and unclean as the parks which remain open. They also almost always have broken down parts of fences so the park can be used as a thoroughfare at night.
I don't know anything about the park in question. But parks with fences remind me terribly of South Africa in the 70s and 80s of the last century. In Pretoria access was strictly controlled. Black people were only allowed in if they were the nanny to a white child, or, of course, if they worked there as gardeners and the like. Exceptions weren't even made for road races (who were open to all runners regardless of the colour of their skin) - if the route led through a park, Black runners had to run around it.
Well, that surely was terrible, but is not comparable to what is planned in Berlin. Effectively, it will just be closed after dark. There's no doorman/bouncer at the doors. So not really the same thing.
@@elkewoll2950I get that, but Kreuzberg is really not where that would happen. It's a very left leaning and international distriict. We have parks in Berlin that are already fenced in for different reasons, and where you come from and what you look like is not a thing there either.
Would a gate make it also more difficult to enter the park? I mean that you have to walk a mile to the entrance? And I don’t see how closing the park at night would make it safer. Unless all the crimes are committed at night, but I doubt if that’s the case. Decriminalizing the use of drugs can also help. In The Netherlands addicts get their drugs, methadon and heroin, on receipt. There are still drug crimes, but not so much on the streets, like it was in the seventies.
The drug trade in Görlitzer Park revolves around recreational drugs. Mostly Cannabis, maybe Cocaine. The true drug addicts are elsewhere in Berlin. The park is also a party and drinking hotspot after dark, so there's a lot of potential crime victims in dark places. And no, it probably wouldn't make it that much harder to get into the park. Effectively, it already has a few entrances. They just don't have gates yet.
Didn't Germany change the cannabis laws recently? If it's legal and easier to get that'll reduce the drug dealers' power. And a fence or gates will prevent some crime, but they're not too hard to get over, so there'll still be some people there.. Complex situations... More policing, more alternative systems and help for people to not get addicted in the first place. That's a start
The laws haven't changed yet: the Bundestag has approved the legislation, but it still hasn't come into effect. It's supposed to come into effect in April, but the Bundesrat is pushing for a six-month delay so that they can sort out all the administrative headaches. Whether this will make any difference to the situation at Görlitzer Park remains to be seen. It's not just cannabis they're pushing.
I went to Berlin for the first time in 2015 and Görlitzer Park and its surroundings was already considered a place to be avoided by tourists. About the case, I saw some right-wing propaganda about it, of course blaming it on immigrants in general.
If Berlins anything like Frankfurt it won't be the case, and you'll see German and Eastern European dealers sealing class As openly while every black man in the area is pinned up against a wall for a stop search.
6:39 - I actually prefer to buy cheap, buy twice. Generally when you buy something new you don't know how to use it properly or whether it's really something you need and are going to use a lot. If you use it enough it'll inevitably break and THEN you can go out and buy something better made fully knowing what you need from it and how it fits with your routine. If you don't use it a lot then it's clearly not something you really need much and you save money overall by not wasting it on expensive stuff when a cheap one would've been fine for your limited usage.
I don't see how a fence or having closing hours is going to make any difference. The criminals will just move somewhere else, like the stations, a bridge or wherever they see fit. They need to sit down, think things over and create a plan with solutions for the causes of this problems. I lived for a few months in Kottbusser Tor... Worse spot in Berlin I have ever seen. Not dangerous, but GOD IS AWFUL. However, police was always around, there were services helping the addicts, and I never saw actually dealers or criminals working in the area. I walked at night just fine (ignoring the filthy station) and it was a lively spot. My point is: Find the ways to help solve or contain the problem. Banning and fencing stuff doesn't help.
Tenderloin is a densely populated area of 0.35 sq miles in San Francisco. What are you talking about? There is a lot of culture in this district. Unhoused people, yes, but you will find those and drug users in the Frankfurt Bahnhofsviertel in flippin' heck Germany! It is on your front door. Kreuzberg is an area of 4 sq miles, the Görli is just 0.0546875 sq miles, or 35 acres.
The weirdest thing in my opinion is that there is actually a fence around the park already. Thus the discussion has no sense from the beginning.
The question should rather be "Should we close the gates at night?" (or maybe "Should we fortify the existing fence?")
Another comment mentions seeing stuff going on at daylight. So by that logic just close the part completely.
the rhyming version of the phrase at the end that I've always used is "Buy it nice or buy it twice"
"wer billig kauft, kauft zweimal"
Wait, that ibxtoycat? The world is a village.
But that doesn't match with the german phrase: Baue auf und reiße nieder, haste Arbeit immer wieder...
Toycat
.?
Yesterday a human leg was found in the more peripheral and quiet Volkspark Prenzlauerberg: let's built a fence around it too!!
A very small fence...
@@danielcarroll3358Why that? Was it a very small leg?
@@berndbrotifyYa! Das ist richtig. Sie sind sehr intelligent.
Ironic how iron curtain killed the train station and a fence is killing the park.
Except that there is no hint of the park being killed.
There are plenty of parks that are closed to the public at night. Most of them aren't dead.
What's ironic about that?
@@felixw19 In Germany?
@ Yes. Schlossgarten Karlsruhe e.g.
During the day one of the most popular spots in the City to hang out. Closed during the night
Disheartening that more and more politicians are looking to fences and walls to solve problems
Very well done!
Are you working on a video about Frau Klette? It's been pretty huge news in Germany, but kinda drowned in international press, among all the other trouble around the globe.
It does feel like they are simply pushing the problem to one side rather then addressing the problem.
My own experience from once crossing the park was that people were openly dealing there in broad daylight. And regardless whether there is the park when I used the U-Bahn station I was openly approached by a dealer IN the station. Certainly one of worst spots in Berlin.
I don't get what causes any feelings with this. If one ask you "do you know the time" or "do you want to buy" what's the difference ?
It's Berlin, all of it is a bad spot
@@holger_pIt's the way you get asked. I felt unsafe at that moment. As for asking for the time that sounds harmless enough but you might consider the type of person and environment before showing your Rolex or iPhone.
@@MartinBrenner Probably there aren't much people with Rolex or iPhone in Germany. I would just ignore them and pass on. Don't know how dealer relate to thefts.
@@holger_p Sure, not many people with a Rolex (at least I only know two), but owning iphones is normal.
Honstly from someone whos parents used to live there and still knows a lot of pepeole around there it acualy seems to have gotten better. but the damm genrtification made it a bigger issue
damn old people buying drugs and beating up people in parks.
fences sometimes turn into walls in Berlin, so it's a perfectly reasonably reaction I'd say
that's spectacularly nonsensical
@@cush6827 how so
@@GroovingPict erroneous generalization.
The Berlin Wall has nothing to do with this case, and no other cases are presented by you.
@@cush6827 how autistic are you exactly that you dont recognise an obvious tongue-in-cheek joke?
Can't have a crime rate at night in a park if people can't get in the park, right?
Especially if the people collecting the data for the crime statistics can't get in.
Same crime happens at another place, nothing changes. The nonsense is: Nobody has a use of a crime free park, cause nobody is allowed to go in the park. It's not worth anything.
Den " Leuten " gehört aber der Park.
How would they even plan to keep criminals away and allow law-abiding citizens in? Having guards at the gate to search everyone wanting to enter the park?
That's not the plan. They plan to close the park at night.
Similar discussions happening about Primrose Hill park in North London; which had some nighttime issues including criminality during the pandemic (it was one of the few open spaces available in the evenings where people could sometimes legally congregate)
But not as bad as Görlitzer Park in Berlin it would seem
Good on Berliners for objecting to this: inclosure of public spaces in the name of "safety" has been going on unchecked in England & nobody seems to have the confidence to oppose the authorities' designs. There's just no Blitz Spirit left: if we make concessions to criminals, then we're allowing ourselves to be controlled by fear, and that is not morally right.
The number of crimes does not give the full picture of how safe a place is: if the crimes are predictable & easy to steer clear of, then it is safer. Fencing the parks is not going to achieve what I believe every city's goal should be: a provincial Norwegian city wherein everybody can go anywhere at any hour without worrying about crime. I find the police in most western cities don't seem to be doing much to get us any closer: they're not fighting the good fight, in other words.
Alas, it's cheaper & wins more points for the governing party to mildly inconvenience criminals as a form of revenge, & never mind the collateral damage. The whip remains in his hand who wields it while the carrot is eaten & consumed. Destruction is quick, easy & exhilarating while creation is slow, laborious & dull.
How is closing a park at nighttime "mak[ing] concessions to criminals"? The criminals can't make their dealings within the park when it's closed.
Here in New York - Long Island - it has become abundant. It is now such a hassle that even "wealthier" inhabitants revolt. See - because of a stupid fence "against crime and for security" some stations of the Long Island Railroad (a bit like S-Bahn in Germany) are enclosed in such fences and people in the houses and buildings around wanting to take the train need to take 10-15 minutes of detour to get their albeit the station is literally next to the building and you see the trains from your window.
In NYC that also happened with outerborough subway stations - you cannot just reach the stairs or the elevator to the station, but you need to walk around the whole block around to actually reach the stairs/elevator to the platforms. They shut off the stair/elevator entrace from nearly all the surrounding blocks/buildings "for safety, for HOA, for .... 'keep the blacks out' " - like in many places of NYC.
@@digitalboy80 They can and they will. Just at other times, or outside the park. As long as drug dealers are there, and people buying from them exist, the problem will remain.
@ Cool story, bro. Still doesn't explain how closing the park at night is "making concessions to criminals".
" There's just no blitz spirit left" in relation to a story in Berlin, 79 years is a long time to expect any spirit to exist. Apart from The Advocaat liquor from the Netherlands.
Closing a public park at night is very common in most places I've ever been to. Increasing police patrols and dealing with the social issues and causes are a lot less common on the troubles that result.
It seems extremely dodgy to put people peacefully existing in a park, but just don't have a visa in the same category as a gang rape.
Firstly, it's forbidden to enter a park after dark in Berlin. Secondly, most Berliners (actually anyone living in a city) knows parks are dangerous places after dark.
The real problem is that Berlin doesn't have enough police. They've tried to remedy this with an "Ordnungsamt" that has taken over policing parked traffic. But this has still not been enough.
Is it forbidden really? Never knew. As for the second... No? Parks are not dangerous unless there's a lack of control and care for them. Going to the park to meet up with friends or have a drink is common practice, day or night. And I'd wager %90 of park-goers don't get raped, robbed or beaten up.
There are no general time restrictions on parks in Berlin.
@ I once got told off by a police officer for cycling through a park after dark. It's seems this is a bylaw in Berlin. BTW, the park in question has signs at the entrances telling visitors this.
Of course people hang around in parks after dark, even in Berlin and mostly in summer, the police just look the other way. But not in deserted ones where bushes break lines of sight and have hidden corners.
Your wager: So you're saying "only" 10% of park-goers get raped or beaten up? Nice to know.
@@rewboss Möglicherweise wird dies von Stadtteil zu Stadtteil anders geregelt. Jedenfalls am Eingang des Liezenseeparks steht es deutlich zu lesen.
@@mikethespike7579 Jeder Park hat eine eigene Parkordnung.
As a Berliner, I"m for the fence.
I once cycled to this park by accident and a gang surrounded me and asked if I want anything in English. I was sure they wanna rob me, but luckily they were only interested in selling some drugs (I was just a teen back then).
Having a lawless place attracts even more crime. I can understand that closing the park at night isn't the final solution, but combining it w. better treatment of drug addicts and better monitoring of crime hotspors, could definietely help.
A video about fences with a disclaimer at the begging? Blimey!
i get pretty much all the infos from arround germany from you. Ironic is, that i am german, living in germany. well 😅
Sir Humphrey Appleby explained it well as "politicians logic". Something must be done. This is something. Therefore we must do it.
Es muß etwas geschehen.
Es wird etwas geschehen.
Es geschieht etwas.
Wie haben wir DAS nur geschehen lassen können??
Dear Andrew, feel free to come to Repair-Café in Schimborn at April 13th, I'll gladly see what i can do about that blue light of yours!
I fixed it. :) It wasn't the light itself, it was the charger.
fences and walls ... especially Berliners should know better
That's why they protest, maybe?
Ah Kreuzberg, the treasure that keeps on giving lol
"Buy cheap - buy twice" sounds in Russian "скупой платит дважды".
Would there be alternatives that could be used instead? Greater surveillance, whether by person or camera?
Social programs to tackle drug dependency, affordable housing (subsidized for the particularly vulnerable) and homeless shelters, supervised injection rooms, safe houses for women, better provision of psychiatric care... all kinds of things of that nature, really.
@@rewboss I agree. But they all cost a lot of money. The willingness to invest in such quality measures for the common folk is decreading rapidly. Thus, a harsh society like in America is encroaching upon us.
@@rewboss I've been following your channel for 10+ years and yet I'm again pleasantly surprised by your evidence based and humanist stance. Love it.
Simple solution….Decriminalise ALL drugs.
Yes, some of these drugs do harm the users. However, nowhere near as many people are harmed by them as are harmed by the so-called ‘War on Drugs’.
A ‘war’ that can and could be never be won and has claimed countless more victims and has caused more societal problems and suffering than the drugs themselves.
This is not done because there are too many vested interests in perpetuating this ‘war’…..and their interests are not the wellbeing of the users.
Yeah, I've passed through Görlitzer park with my dog to get to the dog park inside of it. It felt unsafe for sure, even during the day. It's a messy situation, I don't think a fence would solve the issues that make this area what it is
in a nutshell: the protesters are right. Once you fence a place, criminality will just move to the surroundings. It's a complex problem where the State is trying to apply a simple (and cheap) solution, instead of putting more policemen on the streets with a law enforcement strategy. And preventing drug abuse is even better, tackling the root cause.
EDIT: reading the comments about gentrification and such, I wonder if there's anything related to airbnb...
Maybe (scheduled) legalization of some stuff will change the game.
true, drug mafia thrives on that which is illegal. Just like the US Prohibition in the 1920's.
I don't think it will change too much tbh, the dealers in Gorlitzer Park sell way more than just weed.
Nie und nimmer werden deutsche Politiker etwas FÜR die Bevölkerung tun - das ist der Feind.
As the legalization does not include the system to acquire the drugs, the opposite will be the case and the "legal" black market will work even better as a cover for the market of hard drugs. That is the problem with half-measures.
@@Schmidtelpunkt good point
It's really disappointing, how the politics works. I mean, no one is arguing about the crime statistics in the area and that it is exceptionally high, but the trigger for action is this one weird case, and doubts about this one isolated case, which for itself has no significance on the level of public decision making, can put on hold all the measures to solve the real crime problem.
One should take a look at the situation in Neukölln when discussing a fence around Görlitzer Park. Tempelhofer Feld has been fenced in since it's been opened to the public, and it is one of the safest parks in the city. On the other hand. Hasenheide Park is open all night It's a crime and drug hotspot and a constant nuisance because of noise, littering, and destruction of plant life, and hardly less dangerous than Görlitzer Park at night. I have to say, while I am generally all for many of the more liberal approaches Berlin takes, I have to agree with the idea that fencing in Görlitzer Park is worth a go. It's pretty obvious that a large, dark park at night is a lot harder to keep safe than busy neighbourhood streets. And I don't think that drug dealers will crowd the streets of Kreuzberg any more than they do already if the Görli is being closed at night, since their customers won't hang around there either. Görlitzer Park is not really a hard drug scene hangout, it's more the party people and adventure tourists creating a market for recreational drugs. They'll get their stuff at one of the other spots infamous for drug deals of that kind. Most of which are easier to control. You can't really end the drug trade by fencing in Görlitzer Park, but at least it would stop more serious crime in dark hidden places.
Berliners know best that walls & fences don't work the way intended...
Now the people can't walk in the park at night because it's dangerous, in future they can't walk in the park at night because it's closed off ...
"Buy cheap, buy twice."
Czech version (translated): "Were not rich enough so we can afford to buy cheap things."
But it relys on the idea, more expensive things have higher quality, or last at least double as long. Otherwise buying twice is still a good solution.
I've heard the "not rich enough to afford cheap things" multiple times here in Germany as well, but the "wer billig kauft, kauft zweimal" (he who buys cheap buys twice) seems far more common
The uncomfortable reality of the situation is that the park and surrounding area are considered 'territory' by drug gangs whose street-level dealers and enforcers are largely young African men. If you walk through these areas alone even in the middle of the day (again, the park *and* the street), you will be approached by such men who will attempt to sell you drugs. Sometimes this will happen from streetcorner to streetcorner, and sometimes even with a police car within view of the proceedings. I have intentionally diverted my path multiple times to avoid big groups of these people (borne of the uncomfortable experience of *not* having diverted my path). Residents of the area will tell you that mothers pushing baby carriages will stop to buy drugs in the middle of the daytime, though I must admit I haven't personally seen that.
It is a shame. The park itself can be quite lovely, and when it is a special day is often filled with families of all faiths and ethnic backgrounds barbecuing and pursuing peaceful leisure. But on an "average" day, if you are not part of a group of three or more young strong men, the chances of being harassed by entrepreneurs of a particular trade and migrant background is quite high. The fact that these streets are often stenciled with exhortations, naturally in English, to "stop racial profiling" while police only intervene in the merest fraction of offenses which happen sometimes quite literally under their noses is also a bizarre experience, and one has to wonder how many of the charges for unlawful stay stem directly from the drug-deal arrests.
What allegedly happened to the young lady in the park at night is horrible, but if the authorities and the community do not come together to curb this problem, it will keep getting worse until someone comes along who will solve it (and that in a way the current authorities and community may well not like). I sincerely hope these protests can lead to constructive community-building that helps to eradicate the drug gangs and leaves the area a safe and pleasant place to live and work for all of its inhabitants and visitors, from wherever they hail.
I remember going to the park during the day in December 2017 and it was basically exactly as you described.
Maybe because I see some parks in and around Philadelphia that I think, compared to this example, areas in the US are much, much worse (at least near Philadelphia, in Brooklyn, besides the east side, generally parks are safe and family friendly
@@thehistorynerd8537 Well, yes, almost everywhere in Berlin is physically safer than almost anywhere in any decently-large American city (or Canadian or even French or British city for that matter). That is a given, and is no measure any European would be satisfied with.
In other words, that Central Park is allegedly much worse than Görlitzer Park doesn't mean the situation in central Berlin is acceptable to the average German, or, increasingly, the average Berliner; you see a lot of fatalistic comments about the 'cesspit' that Kreuzberg in particular or Berlin in general have become, and for now this is a joke. But it is a joke with a dark edge, about the inevitable failures of multiethnic liberal democracy in the capital of Germany, and there is no small amount of danger implied by such dark humour.
Again, I hope German liberal democrats (even the conservative ones) can actually solve this and many other problems that the city and country are facing; that they can show Germany's unprecedented increase in ethnic diversity in the last thirty (and especially the last ten) years does not mean necessarily and inevitably abandoning large swathes of German cities to what Germans consider lawless disorder and increasing physical (including sexual) violence.
Because if German liberal democrats cannot do this, there are plenty of illiberal antidemocrats still around who'd be more than happy to give alternatives a try.
I would urge you to think about why being offered to buy drugs makes you divert your path. These people are not threatening you and have an incentive to not draw any attention to themselves in public. Do you also divert oyur path because people are asking for donations for charity? Or because they might want to sell you groveries?
@@DangerSquigglesI don't agree with all of OP's comment, but do you really think being approached to buy drugs is a pleasant situation to be in?
Ah, Berlin! The cesspit that keeps on giving!
just like a 100 years ago. :)
What do you expect from a place ruled by a party whose biggest concern is closing down bike lanes just built by the previous government?
Lol. Yeah, you hear a second-hand story about Görlitzer Park and think, yeah, that's Berlin, right? It's hilarious for someone who lived in this city for 50 years, what people imagine life looks like here.
@@karlkarlos3545 I've lived there for four years and hated every second of it, and I've known people whom have been utterly twisted by Berlin's dark underbelly. Don't assume shite you're projecting.
@@MaxშემიწყალეNice description of Frankfurt.
Wer kennt noch "Maschendrahtzaun"?
Muschendrahtzaon in the morning
Muschendrahtzaon late at night
Muschendrahtzaon in the evening
Muschendrahtzaon makes me feel alright
I’m pro fence altho yes it may be just treating the symptoms you can’t solve the big root cause in a day and so you mite as well try to minimise the symptoms. Also the closing of the park may increase crime in the roads but with an increase in police patrol in the area perhaps they could catch the crooks
Many British parks in big cities are closed in the nights. They are neat, well-kept and clean.
So you cannot have a picknick in the moonlight, go jogging, walk the dog ? It's kind of taking you some freedom. As strange as closing sidewalks.
This is simply untrue. A small number of parks are closed through the night, mainly in London, they are usually as poorly kept and unclean as the parks which remain open. They also almost always have broken down parts of fences so the park can be used as a thoroughfare at night.
They are no fans of this fence! 😉
Uhm, I guess some fascists will the idea.
I don't know anything about the park in question. But parks with fences remind me terribly of South Africa in the 70s and 80s of the last century. In Pretoria access was strictly controlled. Black people were only allowed in if they were the nanny to a white child, or, of course, if they worked there as gardeners and the like. Exceptions weren't even made for road races (who were open to all runners regardless of the colour of their skin) - if the route led through a park, Black runners had to run around it.
Well, that surely was terrible, but is not comparable to what is planned in Berlin. Effectively, it will just be closed after dark. There's no doorman/bouncer at the doors. So not really the same thing.
@@jimboblivesforever There were no doormen. It worked because it was in the head of the people. And I'm worried that it is a beginning.
@@elkewoll2950I get that, but Kreuzberg is really not where that would happen. It's a very left leaning and international distriict. We have parks in Berlin that are already fenced in for different reasons, and where you come from and what you look like is not a thing there either.
Rather think on something like a cemetery with a gate, or a zoo without tickets. There is no other access control, than daytime.
Would a gate make it also more difficult to enter the park? I mean that you have to walk a mile to the entrance? And I don’t see how closing the park at night would make it safer. Unless all the crimes are committed at night, but I doubt if that’s the case.
Decriminalizing the use of drugs can also help. In The Netherlands addicts get their drugs, methadon and heroin, on receipt. There are still drug crimes, but not so much on the streets, like it was in the seventies.
The drug trade in Görlitzer Park revolves around recreational drugs. Mostly Cannabis, maybe Cocaine. The true drug addicts are elsewhere in Berlin. The park is also a party and drinking hotspot after dark, so there's a lot of potential crime victims in dark places. And no, it probably wouldn't make it that much harder to get into the park. Effectively, it already has a few entrances. They just don't have gates yet.
Didn't Germany change the cannabis laws recently? If it's legal and easier to get that'll reduce the drug dealers' power.
And a fence or gates will prevent some crime, but they're not too hard to get over, so there'll still be some people there..
Complex situations... More policing, more alternative systems and help for people to not get addicted in the first place. That's a start
The laws haven't changed yet: the Bundestag has approved the legislation, but it still hasn't come into effect. It's supposed to come into effect in April, but the Bundesrat is pushing for a six-month delay so that they can sort out all the administrative headaches.
Whether this will make any difference to the situation at Görlitzer Park remains to be seen. It's not just cannabis they're pushing.
theyre not just selling cannabis. They got coke,speed,pills(xtc),acid,... heavily cut of course
Actually the proper question is : did the people involved in this crime have a permit?
That's a nonsense question: crime is illegal per definition. There is nothing like permitted crime.
Ah yes, a permit for rape. This is Germany, not some warlords country.
I went to Berlin for the first time in 2015 and Görlitzer Park and its surroundings was already considered a place to be avoided by tourists. About the case, I saw some right-wing propaganda about it, of course blaming it on immigrants in general.
its not exactly "right wing propaganda" if its the case now is it?
If Berlins anything like Frankfurt it won't be the case, and you'll see German and Eastern European dealers sealing class As openly while every black man in the area is pinned up against a wall for a stop search.
6:39 - I actually prefer to buy cheap, buy twice. Generally when you buy something new you don't know how to use it properly or whether it's really something you need and are going to use a lot. If you use it enough it'll inevitably break and THEN you can go out and buy something better made fully knowing what you need from it and how it fits with your routine.
If you don't use it a lot then it's clearly not something you really need much and you save money overall by not wasting it on expensive stuff when a cheap one would've been fine for your limited usage.
Fenced and a sign "closed from dusk to dawn". Every park in my area where I live in Washington State.
USA and Germany are entirely different scenarios...
Did some people take offence (geddit?)
I goddit.
I don't see how a fence or having closing hours is going to make any difference. The criminals will just move somewhere else, like the stations, a bridge or wherever they see fit. They need to sit down, think things over and create a plan with solutions for the causes of this problems. I lived for a few months in Kottbusser Tor... Worse spot in Berlin I have ever seen. Not dangerous, but GOD IS AWFUL. However, police was always around, there were services helping the addicts, and I never saw actually dealers or criminals working in the area. I walked at night just fine (ignoring the filthy station) and it was a lively spot.
My point is: Find the ways to help solve or contain the problem. Banning and fencing stuff doesn't help.
Build a wall!
why would anyone want to move to Russia?
maybe Berlin needs his own Nayib Bukele
Sehr schön um den heißen Brei herumgeredet.
Tolle Kritik, damit kann man ja sooooo viel anfangen.
In the US the Democrat party insists that diversity is “our strength” Hah!
And you'd have to be completely ignorant of American history to disagree with them.
I won't be worried until Görli looks like Kensington ave, Philadelphia or Tenderloin, SF.
Tenderloin is a densely populated area of 0.35 sq miles in San Francisco. What are you talking about? There is a lot of culture in this district. Unhoused people, yes, but you will find those and drug users in the Frankfurt Bahnhofsviertel in flippin' heck Germany! It is on your front door.
Kreuzberg is an area of 4 sq miles, the Görli is just 0.0546875 sq miles, or 35 acres.
Berlin is not San Francisco. Berlin is also not Philly.
bad comparison