I am of the personal belief that no character is "undeserving" of redemption. Because redemption isn't a reward, it's a change, it is difficult and hard and is them trying to become a better person and not all redemption arcs lead to forgiveness.
ugh BINGO. talking about it like a reward, like a gold star that magical-girl-transformations someone into Good now. doesn’t track w reality Or tell a good story. and totally. someone can be forgiven and not have changed, and someone can change and not be forgiven.
Agreed. I believe that it is not weather or not they should be redeemed but if they want it. For Azula herself I think she would never have the empathy of her brother and probably always struggle relating to others., she could learn to interact with others on the same level for the most part. By the time of the start of the story she would be near the point where she would be at a point where she wouldn’t want to change on her own terms and by the end of the show she would need a long time to even consider working towards redemption as an option. The big failing is her mother when Azula was growing up not understanding Azula or working to counter her husband’s influence. Iroh could also have tried hard having learned the lessons of being in the wrong the hard way, instead focusing on Zuko exclusively.
Azula was raised as a weapon. This is why in normal settings she feels alien. Like she genuinely doesn't know what to do. She treats a game of volleyball as a war. Heck, she even thinks about conquering the world when she flirts with someone. We also see that shes still human being able to apologise to Tylee and be honest with her. About her insecurities. Zuko is the lucky one. He got out of that abuse, he has Iroh
As someone who studies Cults/High Control Groups for fun. I can tell you that the deeper/higher you get into them the line between Victim and Perpetrator blurs. When people leave these groups they have to heal their moral injuries. So when I look at Azula, I see the nuances of her character. Then again, I am a sensitive person. So I might be reading too deep into this.
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 David Miscavige was raised as a Scientologist as a kid. Like I said, Cults/High Control Groups are complex evil machines. Some people leave the system, while others maintain it. I think I read something from Dr. Janja Lalich where she said that even if a Cult falls, there will still be those committed to the Group.
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 Yup. But he has no backstory focus and isn't given much nuance. His is not the story being told. So whether he deserves redemption or not is a moot point- he's not a person, so much as a personification of The Bad Things That Will Happen If Our Heroes Don't Stop Sozin's Comet.
Catra’s redemption fulfilled the Azula scratch a bit for me. An abused child, raised in cruelty and praised when she emulated it, but it was nice that unlike Azula, Catra wasn’t alone, and it was this love that helped her escape. I guess it’s just sad when you see a kid who is completely alone and unloved lashing out. Zuko had that unconditional love. Azula didn’t, or at least she didn’t register it. She only saw her mother’s disgust and her father’s pride, and she devoted herself to her vision of perfection, as defined by her father, and avoiding disappointment, as defined by her brother.
I think it's important to remember that her mother's love wasn't absent, she just didn't register it, or value it. The impression I got was that Azula's mother loved her despite of what she was. You can read parental rejection into Azula's story, of course. In fact, she's selected this narrative as the one that best serves her. Plus, as someone who craves control over others above all things, what frustrated her most growing up was her inability to control her mother's impression of her. She couldn't manipulate her mother's feelings. And for her, that was the equivalent of being unloved. But it's not the same thing. Remember, Azula was raised in an environment of cruelty and abuse, but she learned to thrive in it. The fact that Zuko failed out of it, specifically because he couldn't erase his empathy, is the very reason he could heal himself. But by making herself master of that world, Azula locked herself out of any other. Just the fact that you feel this way about Azula should tell you that you're nothing like her. She would never relate to you, let alone empathize. I think it's dangerous to project one's own life and traumas onto people like Azula. That sort of person will actively attempt to create a bond of empathy, specifically to exploit you. Of course, that doesn't mean one shouldn't feel sympathy for them. But it's paramount to distinguish sympathy from projection. Azula's experience isn't yours, not even close. Her suffering comes not from being unloved, but from an inability to love. It's surely the most lonely life a person can have. And it doesn't come from the neglect, but from the reward that comes with embracing heartlessness. The most heartbreaking thing about Azula is that there's no way out. It's a locked room. And the more you try to help or empathize, the more she will exploit you. Because exploitation is the only social currency she understands. I've known too many people who've fallen into the trap of trying to empathize with a narcissist, and the experience leaves them hollowed out and broken. You think they've made you the center of their world, and it feels amazing, until you realize that what they've really done is made themselves the center of yours. They make sure you're not happy unless they are. And this kind of person can never be happy, so really, they've just recruited you into the hopeless task of feeding the bottomless pit of their emotional void. The only escape is to let go of the dream that you can make them happy. For someone who can't take joy from anyone else's happiness, there's no path to happiness for themselves. It's a trap, a maze with no way out, only back to the center of themselves and their isolation.
I have thought this exact same thing before! Catra and Azula are so similar in the way that they lean into their competence in a broken, corrupt system. I would love to see Azula develop some relationships that help her get out of the system she was raised in, and see that living another way is possible (the way that Glimmer, Adora and even Scorpia did for Catra).
@@HimynameisAverie But one might assert that Azula can't form those kinds of relationships, because the way she chose to engage with her world placed her in a trap from which there is no escape. To protect herself and thrive, she formed a view of the world so fundamental that it can't be changed. It sealed her into her isolation from empathy or compassion for others. No matter how much empathy or compassion she receives, she can't see that as anything but an advantage to be exploited until it's exhausted. So she can't be retrained to return empathy or compassion, because to her, there's no plus side to giving up an advantage. To her, the world is fundamentally hostile, kill or be killed, exploit or be exploited. To even see the world any other way feels foolish and pointless to her. Again, I think this kind of personality disorder doesn't come simply from abuse, but from success and mastery within an abusive system. It ingrains abuse as the only method of personal gain.
THANK YOU. Thank you for saying “Zuko got out.” SO MANY people miss this key factor in his redemption arc, and therefore presume azula wouldn’t be able to change, ever.
There's an amazing fanfic on Ao3 that puts this idea into practice (not redemption, but what Azula's life might look like in healthier surroundings and how she'd change as a result.) It's told from Azula's point-of-view, and it starts with her in her prison cell and follows her for years into adulthood. It's probably the best fanfic I've ever read, and I always reread it after finishing a rewatch of the series. (Also, I'm queer, and the central relationship is Azula/Katara, which...love it.) Anyway, it's very much a story of Azula's slow progress through healing and growth and I strongly recommend it. It's called "Measure Each Step to Infinity," by paxbanana, and it's a pretty chunky novel-length story by someone who really understands the tone, characterization and detail of the source material. The quality of writing is absurdly high, and it somehow manages to improve as it progresses.
“I don’t think you’re a monster, I think you’re confused.” I think that if she had been raised in a loving, supportive environment she could have been a force for good. She has such an intense drive to make things happen that she could have been the person to call on when something needs a steady hand to take control and make positive change.
As someone who made some seriously messed up choices at age 14, Azula has always resonated with me. I couldn't put my finger on it, but you hit the nail on the head. Beneath the twisted mess, was someone who just needed a health, compassionate environment
Something I want to add, another question we should ask is not “does Azula deserve redemption?” The question is “If the opportunity to change, grow, and heal presents itself to Azula, Would Azula Take It?” Just thought I would add my two cents to the conversation
my two cents about that would be-there is not One opportunity to change and grow. it’s many small ones, gradually, slowly, that would happen in tandem w, yk, healing and de programming. in the same way that even ZUKO rejected one of those opportunities when given at ba sing se, it makes sense that azula would reject it initially as well. growth is gradual, and not linear-and CERTAINLY for people with this kind of deep conditioning.
@@newtonnote1358 absolutely! and that’s my take on that conversation. esp re the idea of finality-redemption isn’t One Big Moment where someone magical-girl transformations into Good Now. it’s a series of small changes over time. steps forward, steps back, struggles, backsliding. even w zuko-he also had aang reach out in the blue spirit, and responded with violence. so my question, for example, wouldn’t be “would she take an opportunity to change,” it’s “what would it Take for her to heal?” “under what conditions might she begin to reflect?” “what would change Look Like for her in early stages?” “what might prompt new choices from her?” etc. :)
I appreciate how you integrated the idea of healing into the question of the redemption arc. People sometimes want the catharsis of heroism absolving a perpetrator of their wrongdoings, as it is often dramatic, satisfying, and entertaining. But the healing is much more complex, sometimes disappointing with the regressions and habits that can make true growth seem insurmountable. These cycles are hard to contend with, but they can ultimately be more fulfilling. I feel that Zuko’s regression in Ba Sing Se is part of what solidified his redemption arc as one of the greatest. It takes returning to toxicity sometimes to recognize the fault in your own deeply integrated desires. But abuse and trauma doesn’t automatically impart wisdom, it obligates healing. The wisdom comes from the rebuilding. And that is so, so hard to dedicate oneself to. It’s hard to even expect that from most people, because the initial realization is hard enough to expect from the average person.
@@hellofriend545 its not always satisfying and entertaining when the perpetrator did awful things and their absolvtion is sanaitization and downplaying and romanticizing the awful thinngs they did with no direct or effective consequences and half baked redemption
@@SpaceandGoats you clearly don’t know how to read then. I’m not sure of adding comments = attacking. Especially when I’ve also questioned Iroh and Zuko’s’s redemptions.
I also think in terms of fiction “redemption” is inherently framed as an audience-focused interpretation. Has this character been redeemed in the eyes of the spectators being fed very specific moments? The other characters in the show obviously play a part in it, but with fiction the entire point is to communicate things to us, and that include skewing perceptions of certain characters a particular way. For example, there are stories that have a character do a tiiiiiny act of kindness and some audiences will interpret that as a total redemption. Whereas others think that no amount of good will redeem them. But these effects are also skewed by the tone/intention of the authors This was a brilliant look at the subjective nature of morality, your videos are always top notch.
great point! i think that the idea of characters "being held accountable" similarly takes an audience-centric perspective. some audience members take that to mean that misbehavior needs to be addressed on-screen, in-character whereas others view accountability as experiencing negative consequences for that misbehavior.
@@charleston1789 that’s some thing I noticed is a lot of audiences determine good or bad redemption objectively based on their subjective standards, which can also be hypocritical and double standardish And every time a villain shows humanity , audiences demand that villain be redeemed, or turned into a Gary stu antihero, or start rooting for a villain just because they have loved ones and people they care about, and others that care about them.
Great video. I didn’t realize how when people say redemption they may be thinking of vastly different things. When I think of Azula redemption, I think of her healing from the abuse she suffered from Ozai and learning how to open up to people and become more of what we saw at ember island. I don’t expect the people she has hurt to forgive her. But I would like to see her try to do more good or at least not bad. However I understand why Azulas original arc was ended the way we did. However if they ever did touch on Azula (outside the comics), I would honestly feel really bad for her if she doubled down on her awful tendencies with no display of trying to get better. I think there’s a lot of good stuff they could do with Zuko trying to reach out to Azula and help her, not because she deserves it or not, but because Zuko knew some of what it was like and he wants to do good
Ending with her doubling down on her worst nature could be a compelling tragedy, but rather antithetical to what AtLA is thematically interested in as a series.
This video was quite cathartic, and a really good breakdown. I hate how common it is to conflate forgiveness, atonement, and change under the umbrella term 'redemption', especially since all of these things can be completely independent of each other. I tend to prefer to use the word 'redemption' to just refer to a change in behaviour specifically, but unfortunately you can't just use a word with a specific meaning in mind and expect people with different concepts of it to understand what you mean. I really appreciated your insight, too. I hadn't thought about the deeper implications of some of Azula's scenes to the same extent.
bingo. right!? like-it’s used vaguely to refer sometimes to healing/making up for wrongs/self improvement/forgiveness, when, LIKE YOU SAID, those are unique things and don’t always happen together. someone could change and not be forgiven, someone could be forgiven and not “make up for their wrongs,” someone could be forgiven but not heal, heal but not fix things…etc etc etc. that’s why if we want to have juicy convos about fiction and the ideas in there, we HAVE to ask OURSELVES what we mean. understand specifically what we are asking, what we are referring to as best as we can. it’s tricky, but i think this is how we engage w stories and ideas the best :)
forgive me if i bring up my latest obsession but this is kind of why i really love the approach red dead redemption 2 takes with the concept of "redeeming yourself". in the game the arc of redemption comes from coming to terms with the fact that the harm you've caused and are resposible for cannot be undone, but that there is still value in doing good moving forward. forgiveness and absolution are explicitly framed to not be the goal of redemption, instead focusing on making better choices in the future. i vastly prefer this framework instead of the "redemption as absolution" methodology that people often seem to expect out of stories, since as you've stated, the idea of "balancing out" the harm is absurd and ultimately impossible
20:35 I would argue true redemption doesn't require someone else's forgiveness. You admitted guilt and changed behavior to be a better person, not to gain or regain another person in your life.
I always felt such pity for her when she fully broke down after fighting Katara. Props to her voice actor and the animation because I understood that she needed to be defeated in that moment, but also was just a teenager who feels like a failure for the first time in their life.
I was so excited to see this video drop, because if anyone could bring anything nuanced and intelligent to the conversation on Azula's character, it would be you. You did not disappoint. Coupled with your Catra video, this is some of your best analysis. I live for these videos.
I've been on something of a crusade against people talking about characters in terms of what they "deserve" lately, and this essay hits on why. Stories don't work like that. Characters getting what they deserve is maybe satisfying, but it's predictable, and sometimes people not getting their due is more interesting. Some people just don't get happy endings no matter how much they suffered, and some people get forgiven no matter how much they hurt those who forgive them. Stories are about what _can_ happen, not what _should_ happen. And the space of things going horribly wrong in canon is where the fanfics live, it would be inhumane to close it and evict them.
I feel it bears mentioning, being good is not the same as being nice. Redemption is becoming a better person who does less overall harm. Azula, if redeemed, would still be much the same harsh taskmaster she just wouldn’t direct it towards domination. The same way Zuko was always honorable but fed into the Fire Nation war machine in Book 1.
when i look at azula i see a child who has been failed by everyone around her. it doesn't mean nothing is her fault, but that she's a product of her environment. it captures a reality of a lot of kids who grew up becoming "unlikable" because of their circumstances and it is what it is, a very unfortunate reality. so while it's very understandable why people want a "redemption" arc for her to heal and live a better life from here on, it can also detract from, again, the grim reality of those kids who never had and still have no chance at a better life. it is in essence (and not to sound cheesy), life. there's also the people whose lives she changed for the worse. regardless, it's nice to see or imagine what kind of person she'd be without all these, but the bigger picture is the commentary on how privilege doesn't really exempt a person from harsh upbringing where they feel like they had no choice. also how it can in turn breed and spread more cruelty, perpetuating the idea that all privileged/people coming from power are inherently heartless and manipulative to others. and i loved this show and azula for exploring that in such nuanced way! absolutely love your takes btw! they're now my standard for video essays haha
I think a lot of these discussions are complicated by the porous boundary between redemption as a narrative device in fiction and redemption as a conceptual framework for understanding real people in real life. I think discussions of the latter are really shaped by an overly simplistic Christian way of boiling down redemption into "soul gets into heaven" or "soul gets into hell." We see that kind of thinking in Vader's story line, for instance, where his one dramatic gesture of love towards Luke buys him a ticket to the final party as a force ghost (= afterlife in heaven). I say it's a porous boundary between the fictional and the real because we use those fictions to reason about our own lives. The Christian heaven/hell dichotomy is *used* as a fiction by people who reason about the nature of justice for wrongdoers in real life. What I love about your call for specificity around 28:00 is that it confronts the moral maturity needed for committing to restorative justice in the real world. How should society and the law think about consequences for those found guilty of crimes? Simple answers like "throw em in jail" or "anarchy for everyone!" aren't satisfactory for the same reason that Azula redemption discourse isn't satisfactory. What's needed is a long-term investment in the difficult details and an acceptance that there are no simple answers or final endings. But that's not an easy story to tell, in fiction or in the administration of justice in the real life. Hopefully discomfort with endings for characters like Azula and Hordak invites people to think in a nuanced way about what they want to happen in the real world after a court reaches a guilty/innocent verdict.
This was done really well. One thing that always bothered me is how everyone thinks its nature vs nurture. Either someone is the way they are because its their nature (aka someone would be evil regardless) or its their nurture (they are evil because they dont know better). Azula shows that it can be both. She is naturally less empathetic then others but not necesarrily evil, but combined with the way she is raised ("even my mother thought i was a monster"+her father raising her as a weapon) she became the person we see. And even if she now learns a better way with zucko she stil will have objectively less empathy then zucko. she will not be a good guy even if she is no longer a villain
Your points at 20:15 and 26:50 made me think of Kratos from the God of War series, a person who, in my eyes at least, embodies this entire discourse better than anyone I've seen so far, fictional or otherwise. (SPOILERS BELOW) The man singlehandedly ravaged the entirety of Greece for both understandable and petty reasons, basically killing anyone and everyone in his way. At the end of his crusade, Greece has been more or less stripped of all life and joy, with little hope of rebuilding for anyone still alive. Kratos was both directly and indirectly responsible for all of that, and we, as the audience, not only see this but actively carry it out over the course of multiple games. By every single metric of the human psyche, he was a cruel and miserable person who should be beyond redemption. And yet, in the most recent games, that is exactly what we see. Kratos changes his ways for the better, becomes a model dad, forges new, healthier connections, and helps the Norse realms in ways both big and small, eventually liberating them from Odin's tyranny and madness. His behavioral changes are ones he actively chooses to make, born out of many decades, possibly even centuries of guilt and introspection, and he still grapples with it (probably always will). Because of that, he carries within him a genuine desire to be a better, more responsible man, both for himself and for those around him in the present day. Does that mean the people of Greece are now obligated to forgive Kratos, even as we the audience do so since, we know that in the grand scheme of things, him changing his ways is an objective net positive like Uncle Iroh's? Is he absolved of everything now that his charities outweigh his crimes on both number and scale? Where would that conversation even begin? For me personally, redemption is too vague a term to describe stories like these. I think "reinvention" is a better fit. A big message of the new God of War games, one that really resonates with me, is that no matter your scars, be it the ones you inflict or ones inflicted upon you, it is never too late to reinvent yourself. I also heard someone say in passing that for however long you were a bad person, whether that's an objective fact or just how you see yourself, it will take you that same length of time to 𝙩𝙧𝙪𝙡𝙮 change and become good. From this perspective, I think Azula is in a far better position than Kratos and even Uncle Iroh. Where the latter are grown men, the former is still a child.
oh that’s fascinating, thank you so much for sharing. these exactly the kind of conversations i was talking about, that are so meaningful and interesting to have. love.
I want to see a "post-cancellation" story for Azula. Whatever we call it, however she behaves, I want to see her relearn how to live after war and after facing consequences for her part in it. I think that is far more interesting and relevant to our present accountability culture than the nebulous idea of redemption.
The question of a character “deserving” redemption is so funny to me. Doing the work of redemption is how a character is able to earn and deserve it. Just like in life, the harder one works to better themself the more deserving of rewards they become (real life doesn’t always listen, one of the satisfactions of stories are that they can control the world to give good people good things). Azula doesn’t “deserve” redemption, but I’m certain she could get it if she wanted it. I think the better question is “does she want it, or would she recognize an opportunity to grow if presented”? Funnily enough Zuko actually resists many, many opportunities and it’s only through the patience and persistence of Iroh that he is able to grab at being better. Part of what makes his story so satisfying is the falling away of his internal resistance to change.
Another masterpiece of catharsis that’s making me tear up :) What I think is really interesting for me is how my view on her has changed as I grew up; when I was young, I missed the importance of the subtleties in her character, and thought she would never change for the better, even given the option, but now that I’m older, I see her as someone who is the victim of her circumstances, and desperately needs support and care. The redemption discussion resonated with me on a discussion I had some time ago with a friend about inter-generational trauma/harm. My mom messed me up because her mom messed her up because the war messed her up kind thing. And the way I thought about it was that no one person can, or should be expected to, break the cycle of pain in one generation. All you can do is try to do better, and some day it will be done. Becoming a more kind and compassionate person is a life-long effort, and it will give the next generation a better place to start in, better models to learn from. When they do the same for their descendants, the world is a better place. That’s redemption to me; not some equation to balance, but a journey to do less harm and more good, to yourself and the world around you.
I only watched the show in my forties and I was impressed how this show for kids under 10 handled all these mature themes. I had pity for Azula, she never had much of a choice and it must be a lonely life for her.
IF NOTHING WE DO MATTERS, ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHAT WE DO 🥳 Great, really in-depth video, and a really enjoyabe time! Also, adding to the discussion: one of the best 'shifting perspective' arguments I've seen re the redemption discourse is that if you can't imagine what Azula would be like if raised in an environment that doesn't foster 'negative' traits, imagine what someone like Katara would be like if raised in Azula's situation and circumstances. Would we still say she's undeserving of redemption in that scenario?
I think part of why I want to see Azula "redeemed", i.e. heal and grow and be able to be happy as herself for herself, is because I see so much of myself in her. Like her I grew up in an incredibly abusive environment and became violent just like Azula. Got into so many fights and have made so many bad decisions that have hurt people and myself. I have worked so hard to heal and grow and finally actually feel some genuine happiness. I want her to have the same thing. And if she can't be redeemed, can I ever really be redeemed?
and there ya go. exactly. fiction flows thru us in diff ways, including seeing ourselves/other people in it. and i’m sure you’re not the only one-and that’s one way the story is meaningful and valuable
@@katpocalypsemeow4554 just because a fictional character cant be redeemed doesnt mean you cant be redeemed. What about characters you personally hate and feel don’t deserve redemption? Others may relate to that same character and have similar thoughts that they deserve redemption even though that same character may resemble someone that may have hurt you or someone you know And you made the choice to get better, not every character and not every real life person with a sympathetic background chooses to get better, even if they are relatable we all have our distinct differences and choices
@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 but Azula is still a 14 year old girl we're told by the moral center of the show she's just crazy and needs to be put down like a rabid dog. That person is her uncle Azula never even got the chance to be redeemed or offered a chance
@@SpaceandGoats I will admit, I don’t want to see Azula be redeemed because we have plenty of characters who have been redeemed. Already redemption arc’s sometimes seem to downplay and excuse a villains action and many redemptions today feel half baked On top of that, and the more important reason is ,as a kid in middle and high school I was bullied and hurt severely and repeatedly by teenagers (both men and women) who got away with it to little or no repercussions/ostracization and they never really changed or apologized to me and the bullies and their friends made ME out to be the ONLY problem and I was left severely traumatized; still hurts me to this day; and all these are human just like anyone of us. And that’s why I like Azula’s character because she shows how even teenagers can be irredeemably and unapologetically evil and not always forgivable, even if they are sympathetic. Plus we don’t have enough teenager villains in mainstream media.
@@SpaceandGoats also Iroh said she doesn’t need to be put down like a rabbit dog. He just said that she is crazy and needs to be taken down and stopped and can’t be reasoned with at that point of time. And especially because of how she’s closer to Ozai. Also, iroh is not absolute truth despite his gary stu vibes. Why else with the show show us the sympathetic side of azula? Just because a villain has humanity doesn’t make them justify or redeemable
I aspire to write and communicate as well as you one day. I often find myself coming back to your videos and it always leaves me with more appreciation for the character/ story youre talking about and your videos. Thank you for all the work you put into them, its genuinely impacted my life for the better.
that is very kind of you to say. i am always working on getting better too, so it genuinely warms my heart to hear that it's resonating with you :) and you got this
Ehasz’s comments hit home. My sister and I had an abusive dad. She was the golden girl. I was not. We’re only as relatively-well-adjusted as we are because we have each other.
"Redemption" is a technical theological term referring to when the Christian God forgives someone for their sins. It is neither earned nor deserved; it is granted to anyone who wants it. If the leader of Germany in the 1930s whose name is apparently taboo on UA-cam sincerely repented his various sins in the split second between pulling the trigger (committing the mortal sin of suicide) and dying, he could (and would, according to the Bible) have been redeemed. Of course, that's not exactly what people usually mean when they talk about a "redemption arc", but it's a good (or at least an interesting) place to start. Sincere repentance and a desire to be better is the moment of redemption; demonstrating that through word and deed, and gaining the trust and forgiveness of other people who lack the divine omniscience to directly judge someone's heart is part of the arc, along with the actions and events leading to that moment of decision. And, of course, while you can always assign a specific tipping point, there's a whole process of change from unrepentant villain to penitent.
I don't know about Christianity but at leat in my religion there is a constant reminder among believers that God's mercy is not all there is. God's anger is also apparent, so relying on his forgiveness is spiritual russian roulette.
@@The_Evil_Eye The Bible says very little about who will be redeemed and how, and there are branches of Christianity that appear to have their own sources of information on what will happen to people they don't like, but the angry, vengeful God of the Bible is restricted to the Old Testament, while the New Testament is all about Jesus, who basically came to say "be excellent to each other". The catch in relying on divine forgiveness is the "sincere" in "sincere repentance" - it's not enough to say you're sorry and wouldn't do it again; you have to mean it. There's a minority interpretation that says that it's not God who judges people in the end, but people who decide whether they can bear to live (so to speak) with complete knowledge and understanding of all their petty motives and self-rationalisations - with having their comfortable self-image stripped away - and knowing that the people around them understand them just as thoroughly, or if they'd prefer to hide their shame in the darkness. In either case, relying on God's forgiveness is a risky strategy because it relies on yourself genuinely repenting rather than cynically saying some pious words to trick God into letting you pass.
The main issue is that when so many people who fret over a character is "redeemed" or not, they're not really talking about the character; they're really trying to figure out "Will I be morally justified in _liking_ or _disliking_ this character? Will *everyone else* shame and blame me for liking them? Does liking this character or story make me a GOOD PERSON?" This mismatch in reality, representing a false value, will always warp conversations away from serious literary criticism to mere virtue-signalling.
@@RickJaeger There seem to be three different questions your hypothetical person is asking there: - Is (dis)liking the character moral? - Is (dis)liking the character popular? - What effect will (dis)liking the character have on my moral status?
Iroh being used as the picture of betterment and "redemption" is kinda wild to me ngl but, all in all, this is genuinely the most normal video about Azula i've ever seen and that's very refreshing to say the least !
@@5x5Takes I know that's the general consensus so the inclusion makes sense dw, it's the consensus itself that i have issues with - especially when it comes to discourse regarding Azula. Either way this was a great watch as usual, thanks for putting this together !
The beach episode was so revealing for all the characters. Phenomenal video as always. Redemption is such a slippery concept. Who decides who is redeemed? Vader saves Luke and years of murder and genocide are just okay now? I imagine an alternate arc where Vader lives and spends the rest of his life having uncomfortable conversations ("So...sorry about Alderaan...") and facing military tribunals for war crimes. Yeah, Azula's not going to be saving puppies and doing charity work. Not her character. But maybe she can find out what she wants, learn that fear isn't the only way to interact with others. She is just a kid, she's got time.
Brilliant. I almost feel like you picked my brain or something, your analysis on Azula’s personality and views being so exactly the same as my own. And yes, redemption is quite tricky indeed, I’m starting to think I’ve been using that word simply in lack of a better one… This got me thinking about Darth Vader in Star Wars and how he sacrifices himself in Return of the Jedi to save his son. So he definitely redeemed himself in Luke’s eyes. But then (in what Disney wants us to call Legends but I will always refer to as the Expanded Universe) there’s Leia who’s had quite a different experience with Vader, she sure didn’t see any good qualities in him after all the things he’s done. But then she gets to find out who Anakin was as a child and saw him from another view. He will never be able to take back what he did, but she was still able to *forgive* him, even naming one of her sons after him. So yeah, whether someone “redeems” oneself or not might vary from peoples point of view, but I think the most crucial first step, like Luke did with Vader, or Ehasz’s view for Zuko and Azula, is to actually believe that it’s possible and not give up on them.
I guess when people say redemption in regards to Azula....They probably mean help her heal from her abusive past since her mother seemed to see a lot of Ozai in her and didn't give her emotional support etc. I do love analysis videos and i appreciate this :D
I always love your analysis and compassionate realistic takes. You’re very right, Iroh is a perfect example, he can’t undo the past but work to become better. I think people have a hard time with understanding characters that don’t always do the right thing and make big mistakes. It’s something that’s hard to come to terms with in real life, everyone’s view on that person isn’t going to be the same.
Speaking of 90s TV spinoffs about villains being redeemed - Xena: Warrior Princess is a show all about redemption. If often asks all the questions asked in this video: What IS redemption? How does it look like? Can it be measured? How does it translate to the people affected by the villains? What does it take? Who decides when a person is redeemed? The overarching narrative of the show is all of that and more which is one of the many things that make it such a seminal show.
I really love callisto to, hahaha , she is great but also a good foil and so fun but sad too, and scary. Also xena get a bit weird later but its great.
On the other hand, the show also has the chronological equivalent of George Washington hanging out with William the Conqueror as contemporaries, which always distracts me from the character arcs.
I have so many thoughts & feelings about azula and I feel like none of the "analyses" offered by other story-tubers have captured what I view and now have learned to be kinda objectively correct: she is a child, 15 at best, who through the mistakes of BOTH of her parents (mostly ozai) was turned into the fire nations most perfect weapon. She is a child soldier, like the very real child soldiers and child gang members and other unlucky kids across our world (and throughout history) who have to endure & normalize violence for their own survival. Born as the younger azula learned secondhand what happens when you trip and she learned quickly never to trip in front of her father. Ursa, inadvertantly, played into azulas complex by (rightfully imo somewhat) consoling her sweet "failure" of a son, especially considering zukos head has seemingly always been on Azulon's & Ozai's chopping block. Azula was raised with the example of zukos agni Kai & banishment, so with her natural talent she found a path where she could be "safe". Unfortunately her world view crashes down when zuko is somehow reintegrated into the fire nation but then still rejects it and ozai ultimately doesn't want her as his right hand. A stickler for rules and traditions, Azula SNAPS during the final agni Kai. She, like her ancestors, threw away any semblance of tradition or normalcy to desperately seek power. She broke the compact of an agni Kai, which would inherently mean she loses, but ultimately it was never about order or tradition, but power. When she's finally put into her ancestors shoes (finally openly seeking power) and being abruptly stopped by someone she views as lesser fully breaks her. Sozin began the cycle of ruthlessly seeking power & entitlement and it's a shame Azula bore the full weight of that break. Ultimately she's a child at the end and severely damaged. Of course she deserves redemption because shes a child. Every adult in her life failed her, even iroh. I hope for the comics and my head canon that zuko would arrange the help she needs. I've always felt a slight bond with Azula and even my tendency to support women's wrongs with her has always come from a place of commiseration. Growing up as the third child in an abusive, high achieving family my father pit me and my siblings against each other, lying to each other for us to keep each other in check, using me to humiliate my older brother academically on multiple accounts, he even attempted to enlist my brother to beat me (brother didn't 🙏🏾). My parents are doctors, so are my siblings. I got better grades, better scholarships, better test scores, and went to a better medical school (low-key the most coveted in the country) but didn't continue to practice medicine because once I got there and didn't magically feel satisfied by achieving what my dad bullied us into.... I broke. I'm grateful I broke when I did and not later into my career like some of my other family members (kinda zuko in that way 💁🏾♂️) because I was given the evidence and examples in my own life to unlearn my toxic childhood and seek professional help. Azula was never given the luxury of safe failure. She's only lived a life of survival and it's impossible to thrive when survival is the only thing on your mind. Who knows if Azula could even survive her healing process. I know I'm grateful to be alive still at almost 30 now, but Azula has much worse infractions to reconcile, and it's unfortunately not uncommon for combined survivor/perpetrators to not stay alive through their reconciliation. Anyways, thank you for your video and take. It makes me feel hopeful to know people SEE characters like azula (and people like me) for our flaws and goods and can contextualize behavior appropriately.
wow, an amazing job (honestly, as always, lol), im always just so struck by how deeply you look at characters, and how compassionately too. And, my goodness, the way you're not afraid to look into the nuances, into the gray area, all the complicated stuff that doesn't bring an easy or a satisfying conclusion! Also it ofc may be that your views just resonate with me personally on a very deep level, but the facts are there - literally one of my top favorite channels of such subject matter❤(also I truly started laughing so damn hard on "I support women's wrongs", amazing comedic timing!)
To try to honor your "specificity" point, there are two related concepts I am much more interested in other than "redemption." 1) How much are we really in control of our actions (I.e. how much "free will" do we have.) As someone who has dealt with a lifelong mental disorder I believe that our free will is, while not a complete illusion, still much more limited by external (and internal/glandular) forces out of our control than we would like to believe. (As Arthur Schopenhauer said "Man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills.") 2) To what degree is deep/true/real personal change even possible?
also not sure if you've watched the dragon prince (made by aaron ehasz!) but a lot of the discussion around claudia is similar to that of azula's right now & a lot of what you said applied to her which added an extra layer of enjoyment for me lol. great video as usual
Azula on Ember Island always makes me sad. Before this she feels inhumanly strong and competent, and after you realize how shes incapable of living, what viewers would consider, a "normal" life.
A big reason a lot of fans don’t want to see Azula redeemed is because they identify so strongly with Zuko that Azula’s fall isn’t tragic but cathartic for them.
I think that it fundamentally misunderstands the purpose of a story to discuss weather or not a character in a narrative 'deserves' something; its a much more productive conversation to ask "how could this be executed in a way that contributes thematically narrative." In that sense, I feel-besides being emotionally resonate-Azula's end in the show was incomplete because I cannot see how the themes of Avatar-a show about war, yes, but also people reaching out to each other and extending a opportunities to change-were furthered by how we last saw her. When we take into consider everything that's been laid out in this video it seems strange (narratively/thematically) that no one tried to reach out to her at the end.
Well she's a foil. When shows have a theme like this they often have a character who goes against the theme to show just what happens to a person without it. Also leaving some things open ended is how a series stays alive after ending.
@@thepinkestpigglet7529 I agree with you, and I would argue that her the role of being Zuko's foil is fulfilled by the end series and would not be negated by having him or another character reach out to her during or sometime after her breakdown. I think the audience is sufficiently shown thoughout the series what a horrible path Azula goes down and what circumstances lead her to where she is. Imo it is unnecessary and would be more in line with Avatar's tone and themes for her to be reached out to by Zuko or another fire nation character in her last moments. They would be providing her the opportunity Zuko was granted in the beginning of the series,;if it was him it would also show how much he's grown; proving her way of thinking wrong once again by demonstrating how his love overcomes her hate/fear by directly applying it to her-giving her the love she's always craved. I have not read the comics so idk if anything like this happens there but looking at the show as a self contained story I believe it was a disservice to the series core to end her/zukos arc the way it was.
To me personally, Azula's redemption would work best if she's strictly doing it for herself. She shouldn't seek forgiveness nor should she seek absolution. What she should seek is strictly internal peace. Whether or not that makes her a hero, an outcast, or just a woman peacefully meditating on a mountain. The last thing she should have is the same form of forgiveness that Zuko was given, as that wouldn't fit her character nor would it make sense given all she's done.
Azula is different from ozai because azula never coveted the throne and selfishly sought for power. Her actions are untimately to serve her nation and untimately her father. Even when ozai mentions her becoming firelord she is shocked
Another excellent video. Both your writing and editing and well beyond good enough to be a professional in either category. I hope your day-job gives you an opportunity to put your skills to good use.
Here's my stance. Azula desperately needs redirection in the right direction before it sets in for good in adulthood, guidance where she doesn't have to feel like she needs to dominate just to feel safe, valued, and in control of her life. So no, she's not redeemed. She's not there yet. She needs mega therapy, a healthy mentor figure, meds, and a place to live where both she and those looking after her can be safe. It's gonna take a *LOT* of unlearning, which won't be easy in the slightest.
When talking about Iroh, it reminded me of one of my favorite quotes from the show Elementary. "The only thing that anyone can predict about people with 100% certainty is that they'll change."
People focus too much on the modern stereotypical redemption to the "good" of modern morality, to be honest. Her path is different, and should reflect. It's not to intrinsically change her, but to reconcile her past with her future and place. I think she could have been the esoteric arc of it all. A voice for what we don't see, hidden in the sands of time in the main story of the Avatars, and Dís of the Fire Nation Obscurus by her own actions. Pick up the storyline through an extrapolation of the era after the change of power and finding their mother, showing how messy and messed up the period was through the lens of retreating forces. _'valley of death || ww2 edit'_ / 'Billabong Valley' energy, with her path washing up into the path those left behind in the Earth Kingdom, as if a wight washed up on their shores by the hand of Donn himself, symbolizing death and rebirth. _The Ballad of the Red Flame Lily_ [Opening to the lost book] "Footage" of a furious breakout plays, in the vein of the 'valley of death' edit. Obviously Earth Nation faces appear in the mix, covered in the mess of war, making us invested in the question of what happened and how it ties into the past, present, and future. 🎼 _Outlaws on the run_ _Faster than a stolen gun_ _Tied naked to the trees_ _Killed so gruesomely_ _Burnin' tents to the ground_ _Cops won't wave them down_ _The most wanted Men_ _Bushrangers, rainin' in_ 🎶
I think there's a pitfall in fandom to treat fictional characters as real people. The question isn't is she redeamable as a person, since she doesn't exist. The question is what role does she play in the story and thus, how aahould the arc finish. She is Zuko's foil: she's there to contrast with him and show how the values he learns will take you go to a better place than the ones he had. In that sense, it would be a disservice to have Azula learn the same lesson in that moment.
I always thought that the fire sage in season 2 of korra, is azula, because once, its a position she cant political harm zuko in a monastry, but she is compeent, secure in her abilities, shows vgreat skill and precsion, she is also very deadpan and a bit, snarky. So i thought they at least imply she will at least chill out and find at least peace with herself and chill down . because she was a teenagerand hat alone should give her the chane to find at least that eventually. And she values that, she shows it very toxic but she wants zuko around, and did want him back, and the other 2 of the trio. She has that desire. And it takes time probably to get there bt she deserves to find peace with herself at least. Plus i find it nice if she could be that skilled fire sage chilling but very confident and living in peace fulfilled.
Apparently some people think of Kuvira as Azula reincarnated but personally I kinda hate that because Kuvira just isn’t that charismatic and the writers were forced to ditch showing her backstory for a damn clip show.
I think I want to believe Azula can come to terms with herself and become better because we can see her doing better in those small moments away from expectations. And she is so young. I remember being 14 and the cringe fanfiction alone could send me to hell so i have to believe that there is more to being a person than what we are at any one point in our lives. That might be selfish. But it is real.
One of my favorite fanfics is Ring-Maker, which is a Worm/Lord of the Rings crossover set in Worm (a superhero story in the 2010s) where the MC is (spoilers for a part 1 reveal) a reincarnated Sauron. Yes, SAURON is given a redemption arc, and the story explicitly touches on a lot of the issues the Azula discourse does. Like you said, "need" or "deserve" dont really factor into it. For me, it's more "does this arc work both for itself and in the larger story".
You always talk about complicated characters and redemption arcs in such interesting ways. I remember you talking about similar themes in She-Ra. I'd love to see you tackle Vegeta's redemption in DBZ because I feel like it's one the earliest examples of one I saw when I was young, and it's a bit different from what people typically think of when they picture redemption arcs.
Who else read the thumbnail in TFS Frieza's voice? But in all seriousness Azula is probably the most tragic character in the Avatar franchise. At the end of the series I pitied her.
One quick thought experiment about Redemption, Say I killed 5 puppy's, Frist of: WHAY?! But more impotently, what would I have to do to redeem myself? Adopt 5 puppy's? I can't take care of 3 puppy's Spent time in Jail? Oke, maybe Save 5 puppy's lives? That is going to take years Try extra hard to be a good person and not care about my own happiness? Good luck with that. Your point about Ozai being a model father one day really stuck. My parents were not the greatest they wanted to be, and they regret that, and that is again because some of my grandparents Maybe redemption can be just becoming a good person? You don't have to forgive and forget everything (some scars are to deep to heal) But maybe just moving on and making a life I really like your take on redemption, that is a question I have been struggling with sinds I was little. Now that I am older I struggle with how and how much to forgive the harm my parents have done to me, and how that would look like
Love this, I've always struggled to put into words what bothers me about the discourse on redemption arcs. Redemption through death is a trop I hate with a passion because for me it's not an arc. One decision, a final one at that, cannot acurately depict the change within a person. Vader killed Palpatine in part because of Luke. If he had lived, how would he have become better? Additionally, a lot of redemption arcs remove the character's edge so to speak because people are convinced in order to be redeemed, the character needs to become the perfect polished hero and I've always disagreed with that. People have flaws whether they are good or bad people. Removing all the flaws of a character to redeem them is unrealistic. Becoming better doesn't mean losing all flaws. Also liked the point about finality, why should improvement have an endpoint? That's why I prefer to think of redemption arcs in terms of character development and not redemption. Focusing on the takes away from the journey. Are they redeemed? Maybe, maybe not, different people will have different opinions. Did they change in compelling remarkable ways? Yes and that's why I'm invested in their character.
I’ve always disliked the punishment-centric view of “redemption” that treat it like a trophy bestowed by some outside force and reserved for only those that meet some arbitrary prerequisite. Redemption is just a path to be walked by changing how they interact with the world and only the person in question can determine if they walk it. Others can help or hinder that journey but in the end the only person with say in the matter is the person seeking it. Others thinking they do or don’t “deserve” it are irrelevant.
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 No, it doesn't. A character can change and become a better person in a story regardless of whether the audience believes they "deserved" too or not.
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 Whether the audience likes the story or not has no bearing on the story itself. The story is what it is regardless of the readers opinions on it.
As said redemption can be nebulous but I think Azula should be able to be rehabilitated over just punitive punishment. If you look at it in the context of Azula being coerced to be a black ops solider for a Nazi like regime it’s very reasonable to make the argument that she deserves empathy and help.
The value of change and redemption i think can be seen in legacy. Everything we do has an impact on people, we grow up, become parents or mentors, continue to exist in the world, influencing the people around us. Change in the present doesn't erase harm done but it does break from the potential of future harm, impacts the future, future generations, and prevent you from causing or enabling further cycles of harm. That's why it's worth it, whether you're "deserving" or not.
Auula is thinking she is doing every thing right by being cruel or manipulative She even concerned basingse becuase it was the right thing todo She was a bending protege because it was the right thing to do She was glad for her father becoming firelord She thought what she is doing was right … as she started truffle about her values it distroyed her By believing she could do a mistake although she was so perfect In the end she was destroyed by not being perfect and relishing she could do something wrong like losing her childhood friends
Every time I think about redemption, my mind comes back to the idea of penance. They're treated very similarly in fiction, or are just used interchangeably, which I don't think should be something that happens. Penance can be very damaging to take on as a mindset
I have a lot of thoughts on this one. I hate how people are so quick to reduce victims of horrible circumstances to be entirely from those. It removes a lot of agency from us. I did a hell of a lot of hard work and I'm still doing it to get to a place where I don't hate myself. And the idea I'm still just this product, still this victim- that I still belong to the person that abused me is awful. At the same time the idea of someone whose been abused, someone who is a victim, is inherently evil and will be that way forever is horrible too. That seems to be the only two options- etiher a monster or helpless. Zuko is a little simpler than Azula, I loved him for it becuase its the representation we needed then and the representation we need now. A victim whose more than the sum of his parts and can make his own decisions- shown when even under Ozai he stands up for what is right but is badly hurt becuase of it. him shrinking into and perpetuating that learned violence balancing him demonstrating agency with being an example of it staying with him. Azula's a lot more complicated, shes easier to monsterise- turn her from the child we are rarely shown she is into a monster willing to go along with genocide. And shes a lot easier to do the opposite too- she doesn't have the role model Zuko had both in her mother and in Iroh and had more direct influence from Ozai. I agree most of it comes down to our very flawed ideas of morality and especially redemption. I say that I am trying to be good, I will never be able to say I am a good person. Even as I try to be kind and try to fight for a better world. I know a lot of people like me. Everyday we feel the weight of someone elses actions, and of our own desperation. It is harder for some people to be 'good' and honestly the idea of a good person is so subjective and especially comes down on minority groups. Marginalised peoples most often are removed of the ability to make good choices. For us there's very rarely a good third option. The weight of some choices and above all- the price of doing the right thing, are completely different. I think for me- Forgiveness is for yourself. suki forgiving Zuko would be for herself, it has no bearing on Zuko or his redemption arc. Redemption to me is undergoing a change with the desire to be better, it means that you are not accepting you will be a product of your past actions. it means that you do not allow yourself ot be summed up by your worst actions- you will not accept you are horrible forever and that's the end. It means looking at yourself and saying I don't like the person I am now but that is not all I am. Redemption is for yourself. It's change, it's a journey. And like most journeys its not the same for everyone, it's ongoing and it's not about the end destination. it's not about getting forgiveness. For me it's about living with yourself. Most redemption arcs don't end with forgiveness, becuase that's not the end destination. The journey is.
absolutely. the absolutes and extremes of “irredeemable monster” or “helpless and nothing is her fault” are not interesting, reasonable, or kind approaches - even in fiction. it’s all about that third option (or the many other things in that murky middle). thank you for sharing :)
I always side eye when people get way too fervent when it comes to her not getting redeemed or being done dirty by it, especially in the coming years with all these kid show characters constantly compared to Zuko because it's clearly a case of people who want to like a character but are so drenched in purity culture and want to justify liking a morally grey character. While of course there are those that see the big picture, so many don't and you can really see the way it influenced cartoons and fandoms in the 2010s when writing morally grey characters like her without the actual care of the nuance and unfavorable aspects to them (Amity is the best example, she truly feels like the neatly cleaned version of Azula that fans wanted from her, with the unresolved consequences to the people she hurt and all) and it really puts a sour taste in my mouth whenever people talk about it. Especially considering the other part that many of these same fans didn't like - Aang's victory of not killing Ozai. And honestly? A big part driving this desire is Westerners being uncomfortable with what her character represents. Azula is very much closely tied to a colonizing empire, thus becoming a self-insert for westerners. Just like how Zuko is a self-insert for Westerners who see themselves as better and actualized in the society they live in, Azula is the self-insert of those who want to look like a badass and in control. So seeing her hypocrisy and downfall directly tied to the failure of the empire and family she lived in (the western nuclear family model mind you) brings up very uncomfortable thoughts and feelings of a reality and lack of stability and absolution on their own part in liking her character and thinking that just knowing they live in an unfair society is enough to be a good and just person. While I wish we got Book 4 to see her build back up, I'm glad her arc ended this way in the show. It's the only way to have given justice to all the people in the Earth Kingdom, including young girls her age, she hurt and it is no coincidence that she lost because she went after a girl her age she looked down on from a place her family colonized to spite her brother. Thematically, you couldn't end this show with a wholly positive note. Yes the Fire Nation lost but the crimes still happened. We needed characters from the Fire Nation to represent that and Ozai and the red shirts was surely never going to be enough. We needed someone to represent the fact that the 100 year colonization war was completely pointless and Azula, a child who never had a childhood and risked her very young life for, was best equipped to express it. We needed to see the tragedy in what Fire Nation Supremacy and how they burn out everyone who comes near it. And now she will be in the position Zuko was in Book 2 and have the opportunity to grow. And with Zuko and Iroh to help her (i don't acknowledge the comics at all bc screw that ableist nonesense) she is on a way better path to face the past, the crimes done to her and what she did and be able to grow. There's no way she could've finished her character growth in one season, if the writers tried it would've been so rushed and everyone would've hated it. She needs a couple more seasons at most to be able to conclude it
Distinguish between “redemption” and a “redemption arc”. One belongs to an individual; the other belongs to a told story and to us, the audience receiving that story.
I love that Azula's new comic makes fun of stories where a bad person suddenly become good person. Even though she knows she's done bad things, she doesn't feel sorry about them at all. She lives the power and fear she has over others. But it hurts she alot that people she thinks love her run from her, even though she's so great. She's hurt that her mom would rather not let her brother die than just stay with her. She's hurt that her friends would choose to save zuko and get caught instead of be with her. And she's even hurt that the rebels would rather save a grunt than serve her. Azula likes being a bad person, but she also wants people to like her. She want love and companionship. She wants to be loved for who she is a monster.
Yes while ozai is a big part of her abuse, we see constantly that her mother, especially her mother’s outright favoritisim for zuko is a masive part of the problem. As we see her constantly harsh towards her literally saying to her seven year old’s face: what is wrong with… she says that child but she’s saying it around azula. The sad part is, compared to zuko, she had no support system since she didn’t have an uncle iro mother figure to help. The one time the one time we hear her mother genuinely show love… is during her mental breakdown. She is a massive part of the problem in her life maybe to the fact that in the other reading we learn that irsa was basically ripped away from her home and previous fiance, and was very unhappy possibly abused by him. So, she probably saw azula as proof that she had kids with ozai since she tried to fake a letter that zuko wasn’t hers.
I think ozai did honestly call dips on ozai, why his mom focuced on zuko to enable his softer sides. Because azula, she would get in trouble and if he is abusive to her, yeah she would fear him and that extent to azula he called dips on and he makes hard to reach. I dont blame her if zuko is just easier to reach because ozai isolates azula kinda by having her call on anyone trying , while zuko is easier to reach as he doesnt care about him. Azula got pretty early the golden child of a n abusive horrible dad :( , and zuko was just less risky to reach, azula was telling probably anyone getting close and ozai, warn them to back off?? I know thats implied but ther is a reason why they foster that in zuko because its hard for azula if ozais eye is permanently on her? .
Ok, but Azula was really cruel and sociopathic even as a kid, eg: taunting Zuko about Ozai going to kill him, calling Iroh weak for grieving the death of his son etc. I don't think it is fair to blame Ursa for being horrified by her or not liking her as much as Zuko. Remember Ursa was kidnapped and forced into marriage, she did not have kids with Ozai out of choice, and Azula's behaviour probably reminded her of Ozai, her abuser.
@@user-ny1wo1vp9r”it’s not fair to blame her for not liking her as much as Zuko” Azula is still her child, and picking favorites is bad parenting in general. Personally I think she just subconsciously adopted the mindset that Zuko is “hers” and Azula is “Ozai’s”.
@trashcan446 That's actually canon btw. In her solo comic there's a flashback to when her parents found out she was a firebender and when Ozai is pressing Ursa to tell Azula how proud she is (because he knows Ursa hates this whole situation, him finally getting his prodigy) she just looks sad and frightened and tells Azula "you are your father's daughter, Azula". She most definitely regretted this intensely but considering she was raising her children while being very emotionally scarred herself definitely didn't help in her parenting skills. As Hello Future Me put it "Ursa is an inadequate parent rather than a malevolent one".
Hopefully we find out once new avatar studios stuff starts coming as to what happens to Azula. Judging by end of latest comic Azula in the spirit temple it looks likely that Azula is being set up as some kind of a bandit or even a warlord. At least for immideate future
I'd love to see you make a video on Jaime Lannister coming from a similar angle. He does spend some time trying to be better only to back peddle that effort in the end. There's an interesting conversation to be had there.
I think another, very simplistic way of looking at redemption is by asking “did the narrative forgive them?” or “is the audience supposed to forgive them?” If the answer is yes, then the character is redeemed. It’s even less complex than morality math, it’s just a statement made by the story. In this sense, I also think a character “deserving” redemption is a question of whether or not the character in question _should_ be forgiven by the narrative, and therefore by the audience. And none of this is very interesting. I think there are cases where the audience is expected to forgive a character (thus “redeeming” them), like Zuko and Iroh themselves, but there are also cases in which the story and/or the author doesn’t give an answer and expects you to come to your own conclusion. I just can’t think of any from Avatar. Sorry to poke the bear, Avatar fans, but Avatar is a kid’s show with pretty simple morality. Avatar is mature, but it isn’t complex. To cite an example from my favorite series though, Enji Todoroki, aka Endeavor, from My Hero Academia, basically asks the question, “What if Ozai decided to become a better person?” Enji has mentally, emotionally and physically abused his wife and children (in his wife’s case he also abused her sexually by pressuring her into having more kids), all out of a selfish desire for glory, but when a certain event causes him to reflect on his life and ambition, he decides he wants to change and starts going to considerable lengths to make his family’s life better. As is to be expected, his arc is an object of heated debate amongst fans, some of whom applaud it as one of the best of the series while others claim it is irresponsible and problematic to give a redemption arc to an abuser. But then it comes to what the video says of what even is redemption. And if we take the colloquial definition of a “redemption arc” I put forth, Enji is never redeemed, because the text never outright states he should be forgiven, neither does it state the opposite. It’s up to you whether to forgive him or not. This is shown pretty clearly by how the people he hurt react to his change of heart: his wife and daughter are willing to reconnect, his second son refuses to forgive him and the youngest one doesn’t particularly like him but gives him the benefit of the doubt. And none of these reactions are treated as the “right” one to have. The only one who’s in the wrong is his eldest son, who hurt others in his revenge plot against his father. All of this I think is a symptom of a larger thing. We crave finality. We want definitive answers to our questions because they allow us to comfortably move on knowing we’re on the right. For a long time, a character “redeeming” themselves meant they died doing the right thing to make up for the wrong and that’s it. That’s the end. Nowadays we don’t see one instance of good, even at the cost of one’s life as being enough to make up for a lifetime of evil, but we still want that finality, so we have heated debates over where exactly the line between redeemed and unredeemed is, when we could instead debate more interesting things.
kubera the last god is a really good webtoon thats one of my favourite mefdia ver and psychological and in all aspects, great, and i dont want to say too much because its amazing mystery thats smart but emotional hitting hard one it falls, several characters. and it just gets better, andit already starts good. Yeah an amazing redemption rc too that ends with, he does to do the right thing even agnowledging he will never be forgiven. And thats amazing. Also its a bit of several characters all great clashing and interactin and its great. To be sure he isnt the only , ther is great moral exploration and dark thatits so engaging. And it gets really, brilliant worldbuilding and how well gotten across and deep that gets and, ... yep one of my favourite media ever.
Leverage tv show. Eliot Spencer: “The worst thing I ever did, I did for him. And I’ll Never be clean of that.” When we change, we realize that there are things we can never forgive ourselves for. Forgiveness is not Redemption.
I am of the personal belief that no character is "undeserving" of redemption. Because redemption isn't a reward, it's a change, it is difficult and hard and is them trying to become a better person and not all redemption arcs lead to forgiveness.
ugh BINGO. talking about it like a reward, like a gold star that magical-girl-transformations someone into Good now. doesn’t track w reality Or tell a good story.
and totally. someone can be forgiven and not have changed, and someone can change and not be forgiven.
@@5x5Takescan you make a video about Varian from tangled the series
Agreed. I believe that it is not weather or not they should be redeemed but if they want it. For Azula herself I think she would never have the empathy of her brother and probably always struggle relating to others., she could learn to interact with others on the same level for the most part. By the time of the start of the story she would be near the point where she would be at a point where she wouldn’t want to change on her own terms and by the end of the show she would need a long time to even consider working towards redemption as an option. The big failing is her mother when Azula was growing up not understanding Azula or working to counter her husband’s influence. Iroh could also have tried hard having learned the lessons of being in the wrong the hard way, instead focusing on Zuko exclusively.
Azula was raised as a weapon. This is why in normal settings she feels alien. Like she genuinely doesn't know what to do. She treats a game of volleyball as a war. Heck, she even thinks about conquering the world when she flirts with someone.
We also see that shes still human being able to apologise to Tylee and be honest with her. About her insecurities.
Zuko is the lucky one. He got out of that abuse, he has Iroh
Yeah, Iroh kinda did Azula wrong by saying "I think she's crazy and she needs to go down."
As someone who studies Cults/High Control Groups for fun. I can tell you that the deeper/higher you get into them the line between Victim and Perpetrator blurs. When people leave these groups they have to heal their moral injuries. So when I look at Azula, I see the nuances of her character. Then again, I am a sensitive person. So I might be reading too deep into this.
@HereIsMyUsername what about Ozai?
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 Ozai, is the cult leader in this case. He is the David Miscavige to Sozin’s L Ron Hubbard.
@@HereIsMyUsername but ozai was born into this life too like azula
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 David Miscavige was raised as a Scientologist as a kid. Like I said, Cults/High Control Groups are complex evil machines. Some people leave the system, while others maintain it. I think I read something from Dr. Janja Lalich where she said that even if a Cult falls, there will still be those committed to the Group.
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 Yup. But he has no backstory focus and isn't given much nuance. His is not the story being told. So whether he deserves redemption or not is a moot point- he's not a person, so much as a personification of The Bad Things That Will Happen If Our Heroes Don't Stop Sozin's Comet.
Catra’s redemption fulfilled the Azula scratch a bit for me. An abused child, raised in cruelty and praised when she emulated it, but it was nice that unlike Azula, Catra wasn’t alone, and it was this love that helped her escape. I guess it’s just sad when you see a kid who is completely alone and unloved lashing out. Zuko had that unconditional love. Azula didn’t, or at least she didn’t register it. She only saw her mother’s disgust and her father’s pride, and she devoted herself to her vision of perfection, as defined by her father, and avoiding disappointment, as defined by her brother.
Personally the Sasha Waybright (Amphibia) character and redemption also filled that Azula bit for me.
@@toadlord8594I love sasha. Wonderful character
I think it's important to remember that her mother's love wasn't absent, she just didn't register it, or value it. The impression I got was that Azula's mother loved her despite of what she was. You can read parental rejection into Azula's story, of course. In fact, she's selected this narrative as the one that best serves her. Plus, as someone who craves control over others above all things, what frustrated her most growing up was her inability to control her mother's impression of her. She couldn't manipulate her mother's feelings. And for her, that was the equivalent of being unloved. But it's not the same thing. Remember, Azula was raised in an environment of cruelty and abuse, but she learned to thrive in it. The fact that Zuko failed out of it, specifically because he couldn't erase his empathy, is the very reason he could heal himself. But by making herself master of that world, Azula locked herself out of any other.
Just the fact that you feel this way about Azula should tell you that you're nothing like her. She would never relate to you, let alone empathize. I think it's dangerous to project one's own life and traumas onto people like Azula. That sort of person will actively attempt to create a bond of empathy, specifically to exploit you. Of course, that doesn't mean one shouldn't feel sympathy for them. But it's paramount to distinguish sympathy from projection. Azula's experience isn't yours, not even close. Her suffering comes not from being unloved, but from an inability to love. It's surely the most lonely life a person can have. And it doesn't come from the neglect, but from the reward that comes with embracing heartlessness. The most heartbreaking thing about Azula is that there's no way out. It's a locked room. And the more you try to help or empathize, the more she will exploit you. Because exploitation is the only social currency she understands.
I've known too many people who've fallen into the trap of trying to empathize with a narcissist, and the experience leaves them hollowed out and broken. You think they've made you the center of their world, and it feels amazing, until you realize that what they've really done is made themselves the center of yours. They make sure you're not happy unless they are. And this kind of person can never be happy, so really, they've just recruited you into the hopeless task of feeding the bottomless pit of their emotional void. The only escape is to let go of the dream that you can make them happy. For someone who can't take joy from anyone else's happiness, there's no path to happiness for themselves. It's a trap, a maze with no way out, only back to the center of themselves and their isolation.
I have thought this exact same thing before! Catra and Azula are so similar in the way that they lean into their competence in a broken, corrupt system. I would love to see Azula develop some relationships that help her get out of the system she was raised in, and see that living another way is possible (the way that Glimmer, Adora and even Scorpia did for Catra).
@@HimynameisAverie But one might assert that Azula can't form those kinds of relationships, because the way she chose to engage with her world placed her in a trap from which there is no escape. To protect herself and thrive, she formed a view of the world so fundamental that it can't be changed. It sealed her into her isolation from empathy or compassion for others. No matter how much empathy or compassion she receives, she can't see that as anything but an advantage to be exploited until it's exhausted. So she can't be retrained to return empathy or compassion, because to her, there's no plus side to giving up an advantage. To her, the world is fundamentally hostile, kill or be killed, exploit or be exploited. To even see the world any other way feels foolish and pointless to her. Again, I think this kind of personality disorder doesn't come simply from abuse, but from success and mastery within an abusive system. It ingrains abuse as the only method of personal gain.
"A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward". Clash of kings, R.R.Martin
stannis! stannis!
EVERY TIME YOU POST I SWEAR I GET MORE INTELLIGENT WHEN IT COMES TO STORY TELLING!
thank you i just work here :)
and every time we kiss i swear i could fly
(sorry)
Same
Cinema Therapy, OSP, this- i really do have a Type of media consumption i like
THANK YOU. Thank you for saying “Zuko got out.” SO MANY people miss this key factor in his redemption arc, and therefore presume azula wouldn’t be able to change, ever.
There's an amazing fanfic on Ao3 that puts this idea into practice (not redemption, but what Azula's life might look like in healthier surroundings and how she'd change as a result.) It's told from Azula's point-of-view, and it starts with her in her prison cell and follows her for years into adulthood. It's probably the best fanfic I've ever read, and I always reread it after finishing a rewatch of the series.
(Also, I'm queer, and the central relationship is Azula/Katara, which...love it.)
Anyway, it's very much a story of Azula's slow progress through healing and growth and I strongly recommend it. It's called "Measure Each Step to Infinity," by paxbanana, and it's a pretty chunky novel-length story by someone who really understands the tone, characterization and detail of the source material. The quality of writing is absurdly high, and it somehow manages to improve as it progresses.
This sounds amazing, thank you for the rec
Ooo I'll look it up
Putting it on my list (I somehow read a later piece in the series w/o noticing the main one, silly me)
Omg thank you for the recommendation, I've been searching for this kind of artwork for years😮❤😊
Ah yes, nothing says "stays true to the source material" like *making Azula Iroh's secret daughter!!* 💀🙅
No, ty!
“I don’t think you’re a monster, I think you’re confused.”
I think that if she had been raised in a loving, supportive environment she could have been a force for good. She has such an intense drive to make things happen that she could have been the person to call on when something needs a steady hand to take control and make positive change.
As someone who made some seriously messed up choices at age 14, Azula has always resonated with me. I couldn't put my finger on it, but you hit the nail on the head. Beneath the twisted mess, was someone who just needed a health, compassionate environment
Something I want to add, another question we should ask is not “does Azula deserve redemption?”
The question is
“If the opportunity to change, grow, and heal presents itself to Azula, Would Azula Take It?”
Just thought I would add my two cents to the conversation
my two cents about that would be-there is not One opportunity to change and grow. it’s many small ones, gradually, slowly, that would happen in tandem w, yk, healing and de programming. in the same way that even ZUKO rejected one of those opportunities when given at ba sing se, it makes sense that azula would reject it initially as well. growth is gradual, and not linear-and CERTAINLY for people with this kind of deep conditioning.
@@5x5Takes very true, but it’s still a part of the conversation
@@newtonnote1358 absolutely! and that’s my take on that conversation. esp re the idea of finality-redemption isn’t One Big Moment where someone magical-girl transformations into Good Now. it’s a series of small changes over time. steps forward, steps back, struggles, backsliding.
even w zuko-he also had aang reach out in the blue spirit, and responded with violence.
so my question, for example, wouldn’t be “would she take an opportunity to change,” it’s “what would it Take for her to heal?” “under what conditions might she begin to reflect?” “what would change Look Like for her in early stages?” “what might prompt new choices from her?” etc. :)
@@5x5Takes true, thank you for talking with me
@@newtonnote1358 thank you for watching and for bringing up ideas!!!!
I appreciate how you integrated the idea of healing into the question of the redemption arc. People sometimes want the catharsis of heroism absolving a perpetrator of their wrongdoings, as it is often dramatic, satisfying, and entertaining. But the healing is much more complex, sometimes disappointing with the regressions and habits that can make true growth seem insurmountable.
These cycles are hard to contend with, but they can ultimately be more fulfilling. I feel that Zuko’s regression in Ba Sing Se is part of what solidified his redemption arc as one of the greatest. It takes returning to toxicity sometimes to recognize the fault in your own deeply integrated desires.
But abuse and trauma doesn’t automatically impart wisdom, it obligates healing. The wisdom comes from the rebuilding. And that is so, so hard to dedicate oneself to. It’s hard to even expect that from most people, because the initial realization is hard enough to expect from the average person.
@@hellofriend545 its not always satisfying and entertaining when the perpetrator did awful things and their absolvtion is sanaitization and downplaying and romanticizing the awful thinngs they did with no direct or effective consequences and half baked redemption
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674bro is in the comments of everyone sympathetic to her😭 it’s okay man, we get it, you don’t like Azula
@@trashcan446 who said I wasn’t
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 your actions show you hate her and attack everyone who sympathetic towards Azula
@@SpaceandGoats you clearly don’t know how to read then. I’m not sure of adding comments = attacking. Especially when I’ve also questioned Iroh and Zuko’s’s redemptions.
I also think in terms of fiction “redemption” is inherently framed as an audience-focused interpretation. Has this character been redeemed in the eyes of the spectators being fed very specific moments?
The other characters in the show obviously play a part in it, but with fiction the entire point is to communicate things to us, and that include skewing perceptions of certain characters a particular way. For example, there are stories that have a character do a tiiiiiny act of kindness and some audiences will interpret that as a total redemption. Whereas others think that no amount of good will redeem them. But these effects are also skewed by the tone/intention of the authors
This was a brilliant look at the subjective nature of morality, your videos are always top notch.
great point! i think that the idea of characters "being held accountable" similarly takes an audience-centric perspective. some audience members take that to mean that misbehavior needs to be addressed on-screen, in-character whereas others view accountability as experiencing negative consequences for that misbehavior.
@@grllwrfr excellent additional points 👍
@@charleston1789 that’s some thing I noticed is a lot of audiences determine good or bad redemption objectively based on their subjective standards, which can also be hypocritical and double standardish
And every time a villain shows humanity , audiences demand that villain be redeemed, or turned into a Gary stu antihero, or start rooting for a villain just because they have loved ones and people they care about, and others that care about them.
Great video. I didn’t realize how when people say redemption they may be thinking of vastly different things. When I think of Azula redemption, I think of her healing from the abuse she suffered from Ozai and learning how to open up to people and become more of what we saw at ember island. I don’t expect the people she has hurt to forgive her. But I would like to see her try to do more good or at least not bad. However I understand why Azulas original arc was ended the way we did. However if they ever did touch on Azula (outside the comics), I would honestly feel really bad for her if she doubled down on her awful tendencies with no display of trying to get better. I think there’s a lot of good stuff they could do with Zuko trying to reach out to Azula and help her, not because she deserves it or not, but because Zuko knew some of what it was like and he wants to do good
It was too much and if it got a mini sreies or similar, yes that could, but the ending was bif enough already
yeah i was thinking something similar...
Ending with her doubling down on her worst nature could be a compelling tragedy, but rather antithetical to what AtLA is thematically interested in as a series.
This video was quite cathartic, and a really good breakdown. I hate how common it is to conflate forgiveness, atonement, and change under the umbrella term 'redemption', especially since all of these things can be completely independent of each other. I tend to prefer to use the word 'redemption' to just refer to a change in behaviour specifically, but unfortunately you can't just use a word with a specific meaning in mind and expect people with different concepts of it to understand what you mean. I really appreciated your insight, too. I hadn't thought about the deeper implications of some of Azula's scenes to the same extent.
bingo. right!? like-it’s used vaguely to refer sometimes to healing/making up for wrongs/self improvement/forgiveness, when, LIKE YOU SAID, those are unique things and don’t always happen together. someone could change and not be forgiven, someone could be forgiven and not “make up for their wrongs,” someone could be forgiven but not heal, heal but not fix things…etc etc etc. that’s why if we want to have juicy convos about fiction and the ideas in there, we HAVE to ask OURSELVES what we mean. understand specifically what we are asking, what we are referring to as best as we can. it’s tricky, but i think this is how we engage w stories and ideas the best :)
forgive me if i bring up my latest obsession but this is kind of why i really love the approach red dead redemption 2 takes with the concept of "redeeming yourself". in the game the arc of redemption comes from coming to terms with the fact that the harm you've caused and are resposible for cannot be undone, but that there is still value in doing good moving forward. forgiveness and absolution are explicitly framed to not be the goal of redemption, instead focusing on making better choices in the future. i vastly prefer this framework instead of the "redemption as absolution" methodology that people often seem to expect out of stories, since as you've stated, the idea of "balancing out" the harm is absurd and ultimately impossible
20:35 I would argue true redemption doesn't require someone else's forgiveness. You admitted guilt and changed behavior to be a better person, not to gain or regain another person in your life.
I always felt such pity for her when she fully broke down after fighting Katara. Props to her voice actor and the animation because I understood that she needed to be defeated in that moment, but also was just a teenager who feels like a failure for the first time in their life.
I was so excited to see this video drop, because if anyone could bring anything nuanced and intelligent to the conversation on Azula's character, it would be you. You did not disappoint. Coupled with your Catra video, this is some of your best analysis. I live for these videos.
thank you!!
AZULA NATION
🙌🏻🙌🏻🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
I've been on something of a crusade against people talking about characters in terms of what they "deserve" lately, and this essay hits on why. Stories don't work like that. Characters getting what they deserve is maybe satisfying, but it's predictable, and sometimes people not getting their due is more interesting. Some people just don't get happy endings no matter how much they suffered, and some people get forgiven no matter how much they hurt those who forgive them. Stories are about what _can_ happen, not what _should_ happen.
And the space of things going horribly wrong in canon is where the fanfics live, it would be inhumane to close it and evict them.
I feel it bears mentioning, being good is not the same as being nice. Redemption is becoming a better person who does less overall harm. Azula, if redeemed, would still be much the same harsh taskmaster she just wouldn’t direct it towards domination. The same way Zuko was always honorable but fed into the Fire Nation war machine in Book 1.
when i look at azula i see a child who has been failed by everyone around her. it doesn't mean nothing is her fault, but that she's a product of her environment. it captures a reality of a lot of kids who grew up becoming "unlikable" because of their circumstances and it is what it is, a very unfortunate reality. so while it's very understandable why people want a "redemption" arc for her to heal and live a better life from here on, it can also detract from, again, the grim reality of those kids who never had and still have no chance at a better life. it is in essence (and not to sound cheesy), life.
there's also the people whose lives she changed for the worse. regardless, it's nice to see or imagine what kind of person she'd be without all these, but the bigger picture is the commentary on how privilege doesn't really exempt a person from harsh upbringing where they feel like they had no choice. also how it can in turn breed and spread more cruelty, perpetuating the idea that all privileged/people coming from power are inherently heartless and manipulative to others. and i loved this show and azula for exploring that in such nuanced way!
absolutely love your takes btw! they're now my standard for video essays haha
I think a lot of these discussions are complicated by the porous boundary between redemption as a narrative device in fiction and redemption as a conceptual framework for understanding real people in real life. I think discussions of the latter are really shaped by an overly simplistic Christian way of boiling down redemption into "soul gets into heaven" or "soul gets into hell." We see that kind of thinking in Vader's story line, for instance, where his one dramatic gesture of love towards Luke buys him a ticket to the final party as a force ghost (= afterlife in heaven). I say it's a porous boundary between the fictional and the real because we use those fictions to reason about our own lives. The Christian heaven/hell dichotomy is *used* as a fiction by people who reason about the nature of justice for wrongdoers in real life. What I love about your call for specificity around 28:00 is that it confronts the moral maturity needed for committing to restorative justice in the real world. How should society and the law think about consequences for those found guilty of crimes? Simple answers like "throw em in jail" or "anarchy for everyone!" aren't satisfactory for the same reason that Azula redemption discourse isn't satisfactory. What's needed is a long-term investment in the difficult details and an acceptance that there are no simple answers or final endings. But that's not an easy story to tell, in fiction or in the administration of justice in the real life. Hopefully discomfort with endings for characters like Azula and Hordak invites people to think in a nuanced way about what they want to happen in the real world after a court reaches a guilty/innocent verdict.
This was done really well. One thing that always bothered me is how everyone thinks its nature vs nurture. Either someone is the way they are because its their nature (aka someone would be evil regardless) or its their nurture (they are evil because they dont know better). Azula shows that it can be both. She is naturally less empathetic then others but not necesarrily evil, but combined with the way she is raised ("even my mother thought i was a monster"+her father raising her as a weapon) she became the person we see. And even if she now learns a better way with zucko she stil will have objectively less empathy then zucko. she will not be a good guy even if she is no longer a villain
Your points at 20:15 and 26:50 made me think of Kratos from the God of War series, a person who, in my eyes at least, embodies this entire discourse better than anyone I've seen so far, fictional or otherwise. (SPOILERS BELOW)
The man singlehandedly ravaged the entirety of Greece for both understandable and petty reasons, basically killing anyone and everyone in his way. At the end of his crusade, Greece has been more or less stripped of all life and joy, with little hope of rebuilding for anyone still alive. Kratos was both directly and indirectly responsible for all of that, and we, as the audience, not only see this but actively carry it out over the course of multiple games. By every single metric of the human psyche, he was a cruel and miserable person who should be beyond redemption.
And yet, in the most recent games, that is exactly what we see. Kratos changes his ways for the better, becomes a model dad, forges new, healthier connections, and helps the Norse realms in ways both big and small, eventually liberating them from Odin's tyranny and madness. His behavioral changes are ones he actively chooses to make, born out of many decades, possibly even centuries of guilt and introspection, and he still grapples with it (probably always will). Because of that, he carries within him a genuine desire to be a better, more responsible man, both for himself and for those around him in the present day. Does that mean the people of Greece are now obligated to forgive Kratos, even as we the audience do so since, we know that in the grand scheme of things, him changing his ways is an objective net positive like Uncle Iroh's? Is he absolved of everything now that his charities outweigh his crimes on both number and scale? Where would that conversation even begin?
For me personally, redemption is too vague a term to describe stories like these. I think "reinvention" is a better fit. A big message of the new God of War games, one that really resonates with me, is that no matter your scars, be it the ones you inflict or ones inflicted upon you, it is never too late to reinvent yourself. I also heard someone say in passing that for however long you were a bad person, whether that's an objective fact or just how you see yourself, it will take you that same length of time to 𝙩𝙧𝙪𝙡𝙮 change and become good. From this perspective, I think Azula is in a far better position than Kratos and even Uncle Iroh. Where the latter are grown men, the former is still a child.
oh that’s fascinating, thank you so much for sharing. these exactly the kind of conversations i was talking about, that are so meaningful and interesting to have. love.
@@5x5TakesHappy to help however I can. And this was an amazing and enlightening video.
I was literally jumpscared by the [I SUPPORT WOMEN'S WRONGS] drop. Literally made by jump out of my seat for a second
I want to see a "post-cancellation" story for Azula. Whatever we call it, however she behaves, I want to see her relearn how to live after war and after facing consequences for her part in it. I think that is far more interesting and relevant to our present accountability culture than the nebulous idea of redemption.
The question of a character “deserving” redemption is so funny to me. Doing the work of redemption is how a character is able to earn and deserve it. Just like in life, the harder one works to better themself the more deserving of rewards they become (real life doesn’t always listen, one of the satisfactions of stories are that they can control the world to give good people good things).
Azula doesn’t “deserve” redemption, but I’m certain she could get it if she wanted it. I think the better question is “does she want it, or would she recognize an opportunity to grow if presented”? Funnily enough Zuko actually resists many, many opportunities and it’s only through the patience and persistence of Iroh that he is able to grab at being better. Part of what makes his story so satisfying is the falling away of his internal resistance to change.
Another masterpiece of catharsis that’s making me tear up :)
What I think is really interesting for me is how my view on her has changed as I grew up; when I was young, I missed the importance of the subtleties in her character, and thought she would never change for the better, even given the option, but now that I’m older, I see her as someone who is the victim of her circumstances, and desperately needs support and care.
The redemption discussion resonated with me on a discussion I had some time ago with a friend about inter-generational trauma/harm. My mom messed me up because her mom messed her up because the war messed her up kind thing. And the way I thought about it was that no one person can, or should be expected to, break the cycle of pain in one generation. All you can do is try to do better, and some day it will be done. Becoming a more kind and compassionate person is a life-long effort, and it will give the next generation a better place to start in, better models to learn from. When they do the same for their descendants, the world is a better place. That’s redemption to me; not some equation to balance, but a journey to do less harm and more good, to yourself and the world around you.
I only watched the show in my forties and I was impressed how this show for kids under 10 handled all these mature themes. I had pity for Azula, she never had much of a choice and it must be a lonely life for her.
“The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself” - William Faulkner
Our problematic princess🔥
IF NOTHING WE DO MATTERS, ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHAT WE DO 🥳
Great, really in-depth video, and a really enjoyabe time! Also, adding to the discussion: one of the best 'shifting perspective' arguments I've seen re the redemption discourse is that if you can't imagine what Azula would be like if raised in an environment that doesn't foster 'negative' traits, imagine what someone like Katara would be like if raised in Azula's situation and circumstances. Would we still say she's undeserving of redemption in that scenario?
I think part of why I want to see Azula "redeemed", i.e. heal and grow and be able to be happy as herself for herself, is because I see so much of myself in her. Like her I grew up in an incredibly abusive environment and became violent just like Azula. Got into so many fights and have made so many bad decisions that have hurt people and myself. I have worked so hard to heal and grow and finally actually feel some genuine happiness. I want her to have the same thing. And if she can't be redeemed, can I ever really be redeemed?
and there ya go. exactly. fiction flows thru us in diff ways, including seeing ourselves/other people in it. and i’m sure you’re not the only one-and that’s one way the story is meaningful and valuable
@@katpocalypsemeow4554 just because a fictional character cant be redeemed doesnt mean you cant be redeemed. What about characters you personally hate and feel don’t deserve redemption? Others may relate to that same character and have similar thoughts that they deserve redemption even though that same character may resemble someone that may have hurt you or someone you know
And you made the choice to get better, not every character and not every real life person with a sympathetic background chooses to get better, even if they are relatable we all have our distinct differences and choices
@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 but Azula is still a 14 year old girl we're told by the moral center of the show she's just crazy and needs to be put down like a rabid dog.
That person is her uncle
Azula never even got the chance to be redeemed or offered a chance
@@SpaceandGoats I will admit, I don’t want to see Azula be redeemed because we have plenty of characters who have been redeemed. Already redemption arc’s sometimes seem to downplay and excuse a villains action and many redemptions today feel half baked
On top of that, and the more important reason is ,as a kid in middle and high school I was bullied and hurt severely and repeatedly by teenagers (both men and women) who got away with it to little or no repercussions/ostracization and they never really changed or apologized to me and the bullies and their friends made ME out to be the ONLY problem and I was left severely traumatized; still hurts me to this day; and all these are human just like anyone of us. And that’s why I like Azula’s character because she shows how even teenagers can be irredeemably and unapologetically evil and not always forgivable, even if they are sympathetic. Plus we don’t have enough teenager villains in mainstream media.
@@SpaceandGoats also Iroh said she doesn’t need to be put down like a rabbit dog. He just said that she is crazy and needs to be taken down and stopped and can’t be reasoned with at that point of time. And especially because of how she’s closer to Ozai.
Also, iroh is not absolute truth despite his gary stu vibes. Why else with the show show us the sympathetic side of azula?
Just because a villain has humanity doesn’t make them justify or redeemable
Yesss, I have been waiting for this! ❤
Finally, some good Azula discourse
I aspire to write and communicate as well as you one day. I often find myself coming back to your videos and it always leaves me with more appreciation for the character/ story youre talking about and your videos. Thank you for all the work you put into them, its genuinely impacted my life for the better.
that is very kind of you to say. i am always working on getting better too, so it genuinely warms my heart to hear that it's resonating with you :) and you got this
Ehasz’s comments hit home. My sister and I had an abusive dad. She was the golden girl. I was not. We’re only as relatively-well-adjusted as we are because we have each other.
"Redemption" is a technical theological term referring to when the Christian God forgives someone for their sins. It is neither earned nor deserved; it is granted to anyone who wants it.
If the leader of Germany in the 1930s whose name is apparently taboo on UA-cam sincerely repented his various sins in the split second between pulling the trigger (committing the mortal sin of suicide) and dying, he could (and would, according to the Bible) have been redeemed.
Of course, that's not exactly what people usually mean when they talk about a "redemption arc", but it's a good (or at least an interesting) place to start. Sincere repentance and a desire to be better is the moment of redemption; demonstrating that through word and deed, and gaining the trust and forgiveness of other people who lack the divine omniscience to directly judge someone's heart is part of the arc, along with the actions and events leading to that moment of decision. And, of course, while you can always assign a specific tipping point, there's a whole process of change from unrepentant villain to penitent.
I don't know about Christianity but at leat in my religion there is a constant reminder among believers that God's mercy is not all there is. God's anger is also apparent, so relying on his forgiveness is spiritual russian roulette.
@@The_Evil_Eye The Bible says very little about who will be redeemed and how, and there are branches of Christianity that appear to have their own sources of information on what will happen to people they don't like, but the angry, vengeful God of the Bible is restricted to the Old Testament, while the New Testament is all about Jesus, who basically came to say "be excellent to each other".
The catch in relying on divine forgiveness is the "sincere" in "sincere repentance" - it's not enough to say you're sorry and wouldn't do it again; you have to mean it.
There's a minority interpretation that says that it's not God who judges people in the end, but people who decide whether they can bear to live (so to speak) with complete knowledge and understanding of all their petty motives and self-rationalisations - with having their comfortable self-image stripped away - and knowing that the people around them understand them just as thoroughly, or if they'd prefer to hide their shame in the darkness.
In either case, relying on God's forgiveness is a risky strategy because it relies on yourself genuinely repenting rather than cynically saying some pious words to trick God into letting you pass.
The main issue is that when so many people who fret over a character is "redeemed" or not, they're not really talking about the character; they're really trying to figure out "Will I be morally justified in _liking_ or _disliking_ this character? Will *everyone else* shame and blame me for liking them? Does liking this character or story make me a GOOD PERSON?" This mismatch in reality, representing a false value, will always warp conversations away from serious literary criticism to mere virtue-signalling.
@@RickJaeger
There seem to be three different questions your hypothetical person is asking there:
- Is (dis)liking the character moral?
- Is (dis)liking the character popular?
- What effect will (dis)liking the character have on my moral status?
@@rmsgrey For these people, these are the same question.
Iroh being used as the picture of betterment and "redemption" is kinda wild to me ngl but, all in all, this is genuinely the most normal video about Azula i've ever seen and that's very refreshing to say the least !
he’s definitely a fan favorite and treated as the epitome of good-hence the inclusion of what he adds to the narrative and convo
@@5x5Takes I know that's the general consensus so the inclusion makes sense dw, it's the consensus itself that i have issues with - especially when it comes to discourse regarding Azula. Either way this was a great watch as usual, thanks for putting this together !
The beach episode was so revealing for all the characters. Phenomenal video as always.
Redemption is such a slippery concept. Who decides who is redeemed? Vader saves Luke and years of murder and genocide are just okay now? I imagine an alternate arc where Vader lives and spends the rest of his life having uncomfortable conversations ("So...sorry about Alderaan...") and facing military tribunals for war crimes.
Yeah, Azula's not going to be saving puppies and doing charity work. Not her character. But maybe she can find out what she wants, learn that fear isn't the only way to interact with others. She is just a kid, she's got time.
Brilliant.
I almost feel like you picked my brain or something, your analysis on Azula’s personality and views being so exactly the same as my own.
And yes, redemption is quite tricky indeed, I’m starting to think I’ve been using that word simply in lack of a better one…
This got me thinking about Darth Vader in Star Wars and how he sacrifices himself in Return of the Jedi to save his son. So he definitely redeemed himself in Luke’s eyes.
But then (in what Disney wants us to call Legends but I will always refer to as the Expanded Universe) there’s Leia who’s had quite a different experience with Vader, she sure didn’t see any good qualities in him after all the things he’s done. But then she gets to find out who Anakin was as a child and saw him from another view. He will never be able to take back what he did, but she was still able to *forgive* him, even naming one of her sons after him.
So yeah, whether someone “redeems” oneself or not might vary from peoples point of view, but I think the most crucial first step, like Luke did with Vader, or Ehasz’s view for Zuko and Azula, is to actually believe that it’s possible and not give up on them.
I guess when people say redemption in regards to Azula....They probably mean help her heal from her abusive past since her mother seemed to see a lot of Ozai in her and didn't give her emotional support etc. I do love analysis videos and i appreciate this :D
Your essays are always a delight to listen to
I always love your analysis and compassionate realistic takes. You’re very right, Iroh is a perfect example, he can’t undo the past but work to become better.
I think people have a hard time with understanding characters that don’t always do the right thing and make big mistakes.
It’s something that’s hard to come to terms with in real life, everyone’s view on that person isn’t going to be the same.
Speaking of 90s TV spinoffs about villains being redeemed - Xena: Warrior Princess is a show all about redemption. If often asks all the questions asked in this video: What IS redemption? How does it look like? Can it be measured? How does it translate to the people affected by the villains? What does it take? Who decides when a person is redeemed?
The overarching narrative of the show is all of that and more which is one of the many things that make it such a seminal show.
I really love callisto to, hahaha , she is great but also a good foil and so fun but sad too, and scary. Also xena get a bit weird later but its great.
On the other hand, the show also has the chronological equivalent of George Washington hanging out with William the Conqueror as contemporaries, which always distracts me from the character arcs.
I have so many thoughts & feelings about azula and I feel like none of the "analyses" offered by other story-tubers have captured what I view and now have learned to be kinda objectively correct: she is a child, 15 at best, who through the mistakes of BOTH of her parents (mostly ozai) was turned into the fire nations most perfect weapon. She is a child soldier, like the very real child soldiers and child gang members and other unlucky kids across our world (and throughout history) who have to endure & normalize violence for their own survival.
Born as the younger azula learned secondhand what happens when you trip and she learned quickly never to trip in front of her father.
Ursa, inadvertantly, played into azulas complex by (rightfully imo somewhat) consoling her sweet "failure" of a son, especially considering zukos head has seemingly always been on Azulon's & Ozai's chopping block.
Azula was raised with the example of zukos agni Kai & banishment, so with her natural talent she found a path where she could be "safe".
Unfortunately her world view crashes down when zuko is somehow reintegrated into the fire nation but then still rejects it and ozai ultimately doesn't want her as his right hand.
A stickler for rules and traditions, Azula SNAPS during the final agni Kai. She, like her ancestors, threw away any semblance of tradition or normalcy to desperately seek power. She broke the compact of an agni Kai, which would inherently mean she loses, but ultimately it was never about order or tradition, but power. When she's finally put into her ancestors shoes (finally openly seeking power) and being abruptly stopped by someone she views as lesser fully breaks her. Sozin began the cycle of ruthlessly seeking power & entitlement and it's a shame Azula bore the full weight of that break.
Ultimately she's a child at the end and severely damaged. Of course she deserves redemption because shes a child. Every adult in her life failed her, even iroh. I hope for the comics and my head canon that zuko would arrange the help she needs.
I've always felt a slight bond with Azula and even my tendency to support women's wrongs with her has always come from a place of commiseration. Growing up as the third child in an abusive, high achieving family my father pit me and my siblings against each other, lying to each other for us to keep each other in check, using me to humiliate my older brother academically on multiple accounts, he even attempted to enlist my brother to beat me (brother didn't 🙏🏾). My parents are doctors, so are my siblings. I got better grades, better scholarships, better test scores, and went to a better medical school (low-key the most coveted in the country) but didn't continue to practice medicine because once I got there and didn't magically feel satisfied by achieving what my dad bullied us into.... I broke. I'm grateful I broke when I did and not later into my career like some of my other family members (kinda zuko in that way 💁🏾♂️) because I was given the evidence and examples in my own life to unlearn my toxic childhood and seek professional help.
Azula was never given the luxury of safe failure. She's only lived a life of survival and it's impossible to thrive when survival is the only thing on your mind. Who knows if Azula could even survive her healing process. I know I'm grateful to be alive still at almost 30 now, but Azula has much worse infractions to reconcile, and it's unfortunately not uncommon for combined survivor/perpetrators to not stay alive through their reconciliation.
Anyways, thank you for your video and take. It makes me feel hopeful to know people SEE characters like azula (and people like me) for our flaws and goods and can contextualize behavior appropriately.
wow, an amazing job (honestly, as always, lol), im always just so struck by how deeply you look at characters, and how compassionately too. And, my goodness, the way you're not afraid to look into the nuances, into the gray area, all the complicated stuff that doesn't bring an easy or a satisfying conclusion! Also it ofc may be that your views just resonate with me personally on a very deep level, but the facts are there - literally one of my top favorite channels of such subject matter❤(also I truly started laughing so damn hard on "I support women's wrongs", amazing comedic timing!)
To try to honor your "specificity" point, there are two related concepts I am much more interested in other than "redemption."
1) How much are we really in control of our actions (I.e. how much "free will" do we have.) As someone who has dealt with a lifelong mental disorder I believe that our free will is, while not a complete illusion, still much more limited by external (and internal/glandular) forces out of our control than we would like to believe. (As Arthur Schopenhauer said "Man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills.")
2) To what degree is deep/true/real personal change even possible?
i always love your takes and i love azula. was not disappointed!
also not sure if you've watched the dragon prince (made by aaron ehasz!) but a lot of the discussion around claudia is similar to that of azula's right now & a lot of what you said applied to her which added an extra layer of enjoyment for me lol. great video as usual
Azula on Ember Island always makes me sad. Before this she feels inhumanly strong and competent, and after you realize how shes incapable of living, what viewers would consider, a "normal" life.
I just discovered that the "Thanks" button exists, so have some Canadian Dollars.
Excellent Video as usual.
Sometimes acknowledging your erroneous ways is the first step to redemption
yes yes!! loving these continued themes
A big reason a lot of fans don’t want to see Azula redeemed is because they identify so strongly with Zuko that Azula’s fall isn’t tragic but cathartic for them.
so fair
I think that it fundamentally misunderstands the purpose of a story to discuss weather or not a character in a narrative 'deserves' something; its a much more productive conversation to ask "how could this be executed in a way that contributes thematically narrative." In that sense, I feel-besides being emotionally resonate-Azula's end in the show was incomplete because I cannot see how the themes of Avatar-a show about war, yes, but also people reaching out to each other and extending a opportunities to change-were furthered by how we last saw her. When we take into consider everything that's been laid out in this video it seems strange (narratively/thematically) that no one tried to reach out to her at the end.
Well she's a foil. When shows have a theme like this they often have a character who goes against the theme to show just what happens to a person without it.
Also leaving some things open ended is how a series stays alive after ending.
@@thepinkestpigglet7529 I agree with you, and I would argue that her the role of being Zuko's foil is fulfilled by the end series and would not be negated by having him or another character reach out to her during or sometime after her breakdown. I think the audience is sufficiently shown thoughout the series what a horrible path Azula goes down and what circumstances lead her to where she is. Imo it is unnecessary and would be more in line with Avatar's tone and themes for her to be reached out to by Zuko or another fire nation character in her last moments. They would be providing her the opportunity Zuko was granted in the beginning of the series,;if it was him it would also show how much he's grown; proving her way of thinking wrong once again by demonstrating how his love overcomes her hate/fear by directly applying it to her-giving her the love she's always craved. I have not read the comics so idk if anything like this happens there but looking at the show as a self contained story I believe it was a disservice to the series core to end her/zukos arc the way it was.
To me personally, Azula's redemption would work best if she's strictly doing it for herself. She shouldn't seek forgiveness nor should she seek absolution. What she should seek is strictly internal peace. Whether or not that makes her a hero, an outcast, or just a woman peacefully meditating on a mountain. The last thing she should have is the same form of forgiveness that Zuko was given, as that wouldn't fit her character nor would it make sense given all she's done.
Azula is different from ozai because azula never coveted the throne and selfishly sought for power. Her actions are untimately to serve her nation and untimately her father. Even when ozai mentions her becoming firelord she is shocked
Another excellent video. Both your writing and editing and well beyond good enough to be a professional in either category. I hope your day-job gives you an opportunity to put your skills to good use.
Here's my stance. Azula desperately needs redirection in the right direction before it sets in for good in adulthood, guidance where she doesn't have to feel like she needs to dominate just to feel safe, valued, and in control of her life.
So no, she's not redeemed. She's not there yet. She needs mega therapy, a healthy mentor figure, meds, and a place to live where both she and those looking after her can be safe. It's gonna take a *LOT* of unlearning, which won't be easy in the slightest.
Thank you for this video! I would vote for “doesn’t need, doesn’t deserve” before watching it. But you raised so many good questions…
When talking about Iroh, it reminded me of one of my favorite quotes from the show Elementary. "The only thing that anyone can predict about people with 100% certainty is that they'll change."
People focus too much on the modern stereotypical redemption to the "good" of modern morality, to be honest. Her path is different, and should reflect. It's not to intrinsically change her, but to reconcile her past with her future and place. I think she could have been the esoteric arc of it all. A voice for what we don't see, hidden in the sands of time in the main story of the Avatars, and Dís of the Fire Nation Obscurus by her own actions.
Pick up the storyline through an extrapolation of the era after the change of power and finding their mother, showing how messy and messed up the period was through the lens of retreating forces. _'valley of death || ww2 edit'_ / 'Billabong Valley' energy, with her path washing up into the path those left behind in the Earth Kingdom, as if a wight washed up on their shores by the hand of Donn himself, symbolizing death and rebirth.
_The Ballad of the Red Flame Lily_
[Opening to the lost book]
"Footage" of a furious breakout plays, in the vein of the 'valley of death' edit. Obviously Earth Nation faces appear in the mix, covered in the mess of war, making us invested in the question of what happened and how it ties into the past, present, and future.
🎼 _Outlaws on the run_
_Faster than a stolen gun_
_Tied naked to the trees_
_Killed so gruesomely_
_Burnin' tents to the ground_
_Cops won't wave them down_
_The most wanted Men_
_Bushrangers, rainin' in_ 🎶
I think there's a pitfall in fandom to treat fictional characters as real people. The question isn't is she redeamable as a person, since she doesn't exist. The question is what role does she play in the story and thus, how aahould the arc finish. She is Zuko's foil: she's there to contrast with him and show how the values he learns will take you go to a better place than the ones he had. In that sense, it would be a disservice to have Azula learn the same lesson in that moment.
I always thought that the fire sage in season 2 of korra, is azula, because once, its a position she cant political harm zuko in a monastry, but she is compeent, secure in her abilities, shows vgreat skill and precsion, she is also very deadpan and a bit, snarky.
So i thought they at least imply she will at least chill out and find at least peace with herself and chill down . because she was a teenagerand hat alone should give her the chane to find at least that eventually.
And she values that, she shows it very toxic but she wants zuko around, and did want him back, and the other 2 of the trio. She has that desire. And it takes time probably to get there bt she deserves to find peace with herself at least.
Plus i find it nice if she could be that skilled fire sage chilling but very confident and living in peace fulfilled.
Apparently some people think of Kuvira as Azula reincarnated but personally I kinda hate that because Kuvira just isn’t that charismatic and the writers were forced to ditch showing her backstory for a damn clip show.
You‘ve quickly become my favourite channel for movie and series analysis ❤
I think I want to believe Azula can come to terms with herself and become better because we can see her doing better in those small moments away from expectations. And she is so young. I remember being 14 and the cringe fanfiction alone could send me to hell so i have to believe that there is more to being a person than what we are at any one point in our lives. That might be selfish. But it is real.
One of my favorite fanfics is Ring-Maker, which is a Worm/Lord of the Rings crossover set in Worm (a superhero story in the 2010s) where the MC is (spoilers for a part 1 reveal) a reincarnated Sauron. Yes, SAURON is given a redemption arc, and the story explicitly touches on a lot of the issues the Azula discourse does. Like you said, "need" or "deserve" dont really factor into it. For me, it's more "does this arc work both for itself and in the larger story".
Sometimes I forget that Azula is supposed to be younger than Zuko when she looks like his age
sometimes you can look older than you actually are based on how you act or physical appearance
@@gracekim1998I think Azula's makeup makes her look older. She looks quite different and younger the few times she doesn't wear it.
@@vilmublues752 Agreed.
You always talk about complicated characters and redemption arcs in such interesting ways. I remember you talking about similar themes in She-Ra. I'd love to see you tackle Vegeta's redemption in DBZ because I feel like it's one the earliest examples of one I saw when I was young, and it's a bit different from what people typically think of when they picture redemption arcs.
So so happy to see the CXG shoutout cause I literally thought of that song before you said it lol Please make more CXG videos too ❤
OMG! I was so fucking hype when the totally out of nowhere reference to Crazy ex-girlfrind kicked in! ❤❤ Subscribing
Who else read the thumbnail in TFS Frieza's voice?
But in all seriousness Azula is probably the most tragic character in the Avatar franchise. At the end of the series I pitied her.
One quick thought experiment about Redemption,
Say I killed 5 puppy's, Frist of: WHAY?! But more impotently, what would I have to do to redeem myself?
Adopt 5 puppy's? I can't take care of 3 puppy's
Spent time in Jail? Oke, maybe
Save 5 puppy's lives? That is going to take years
Try extra hard to be a good person and not care about my own happiness? Good luck with that.
Your point about Ozai being a model father one day really stuck. My parents were not the greatest they wanted to be, and they regret that, and that is again because some of my grandparents
Maybe redemption can be just becoming a good person? You don't have to forgive and forget everything (some scars are to deep to heal) But maybe just moving on and making a life
I really like your take on redemption, that is a question I have been struggling with sinds I was little. Now that I am older I struggle with how and how much to forgive the harm my parents have done to me, and how that would look like
Love this, I've always struggled to put into words what bothers me about the discourse on redemption arcs. Redemption through death is a trop I hate with a passion because for me it's not an arc. One decision, a final one at that, cannot acurately depict the change within a person. Vader killed Palpatine in part because of Luke. If he had lived, how would he have become better? Additionally, a lot of redemption arcs remove the character's edge so to speak because people are convinced in order to be redeemed, the character needs to become the perfect polished hero and I've always disagreed with that. People have flaws whether they are good or bad people. Removing all the flaws of a character to redeem them is unrealistic. Becoming better doesn't mean losing all flaws. Also liked the point about finality, why should improvement have an endpoint? That's why I prefer to think of redemption arcs in terms of character development and not redemption. Focusing on the takes away from the journey. Are they redeemed? Maybe, maybe not, different people will have different opinions. Did they change in compelling remarkable ways? Yes and that's why I'm invested in their character.
I’ve always disliked the punishment-centric view of “redemption” that treat it like a trophy bestowed by some outside force and reserved for only those that meet some arbitrary prerequisite.
Redemption is just a path to be walked by changing how they interact with the world and only the person in question can determine if they walk it. Others can help or hinder that journey but in the end the only person with say in the matter is the person seeking it. Others thinking they do or don’t “deserve” it are irrelevant.
@@troikas3353 that “arbitrary prequisite” does apply to fans and audiences tho
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 No, it doesn't. A character can change and become a better person in a story regardless of whether the audience believes they "deserved" too or not.
@@troikas3353 but that demanding audience impacts that story and only when characters fit their standards of redeemable or not
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 Whether the audience likes the story or not has no bearing on the story itself. The story is what it is regardless of the readers opinions on it.
I STARTED SINGING NOTHING IS EVER ANYONE'S FAULT BEFORE YOU STARTED TALKING ABOUT IT!
Great minds think alike. Love Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.
Damn I thought Azula by the shows end was 16, maybe 17 if you pushed it
the show takes place over just under a year. so she’s 15 at most
I made the mistake of watching this with headphones on, and that Azula fan edit in the intro nearly blew my eardrums out
LMAO IM SO SORRY i should’ve turned it down
As said redemption can be nebulous but I think Azula should be able to be rehabilitated over just punitive punishment. If you look at it in the context of Azula being coerced to be a black ops solider for a Nazi like regime it’s very reasonable to make the argument that she deserves empathy and help.
The value of change and redemption i think can be seen in legacy. Everything we do has an impact on people, we grow up, become parents or mentors, continue to exist in the world, influencing the people around us. Change in the present doesn't erase harm done but it does break from the potential of future harm, impacts the future, future generations, and prevent you from causing or enabling further cycles of harm. That's why it's worth it, whether you're "deserving" or not.
Auula is thinking she is doing every thing right by being cruel or manipulative
She even concerned basingse becuase it was the right thing todo
She was a bending protege because it was the right thing to do
She was glad for her father becoming firelord
She thought what she is doing was right … as she started truffle about her values it distroyed her
By believing she could do a mistake although she was so perfect
In the end she was destroyed by not being perfect and relishing she could do something wrong like losing her childhood friends
Every time I think about redemption, my mind comes back to the idea of penance. They're treated very similarly in fiction, or are just used interchangeably, which I don't think should be something that happens. Penance can be very damaging to take on as a mindset
I have a lot of thoughts on this one. I hate how people are so quick to reduce victims of horrible circumstances to be entirely from those. It removes a lot of agency from us. I did a hell of a lot of hard work and I'm still doing it to get to a place where I don't hate myself. And the idea I'm still just this product, still this victim- that I still belong to the person that abused me is awful.
At the same time the idea of someone whose been abused, someone who is a victim, is inherently evil and will be that way forever is horrible too.
That seems to be the only two options- etiher a monster or helpless. Zuko is a little simpler than Azula, I loved him for it becuase its the representation we needed then and the representation we need now. A victim whose more than the sum of his parts and can make his own decisions- shown when even under Ozai he stands up for what is right but is badly hurt becuase of it. him shrinking into and perpetuating that learned violence balancing him demonstrating agency with being an example of it staying with him.
Azula's a lot more complicated, shes easier to monsterise- turn her from the child we are rarely shown she is into a monster willing to go along with genocide. And shes a lot easier to do the opposite too- she doesn't have the role model Zuko had both in her mother and in Iroh and had more direct influence from Ozai.
I agree most of it comes down to our very flawed ideas of morality and especially redemption. I say that I am trying to be good, I will never be able to say I am a good person. Even as I try to be kind and try to fight for a better world. I know a lot of people like me. Everyday we feel the weight of someone elses actions, and of our own desperation. It is harder for some people to be 'good' and honestly the idea of a good person is so subjective and especially comes down on minority groups. Marginalised peoples most often are removed of the ability to make good choices. For us there's very rarely a good third option. The weight of some choices and above all- the price of doing the right thing, are completely different.
I think for me- Forgiveness is for yourself. suki forgiving Zuko would be for herself, it has no bearing on Zuko or his redemption arc. Redemption to me is undergoing a change with the desire to be better, it means that you are not accepting you will be a product of your past actions. it means that you do not allow yourself ot be summed up by your worst actions- you will not accept you are horrible forever and that's the end. It means looking at yourself and saying I don't like the person I am now but that is not all I am. Redemption is for yourself. It's change, it's a journey. And like most journeys its not the same for everyone, it's ongoing and it's not about the end destination. it's not about getting forgiveness. For me it's about living with yourself. Most redemption arcs don't end with forgiveness, becuase that's not the end destination. The journey is.
absolutely. the absolutes and extremes of “irredeemable monster” or “helpless and nothing is her fault” are not interesting, reasonable, or kind approaches - even in fiction. it’s all about that third option (or the many other things in that murky middle). thank you for sharing :)
I always side eye when people get way too fervent when it comes to her not getting redeemed or being done dirty by it, especially in the coming years with all these kid show characters constantly compared to Zuko because it's clearly a case of people who want to like a character but are so drenched in purity culture and want to justify liking a morally grey character. While of course there are those that see the big picture, so many don't and you can really see the way it influenced cartoons and fandoms in the 2010s when writing morally grey characters like her without the actual care of the nuance and unfavorable aspects to them (Amity is the best example, she truly feels like the neatly cleaned version of Azula that fans wanted from her, with the unresolved consequences to the people she hurt and all) and it really puts a sour taste in my mouth whenever people talk about it. Especially considering the other part that many of these same fans didn't like - Aang's victory of not killing Ozai.
And honestly? A big part driving this desire is Westerners being uncomfortable with what her character represents. Azula is very much closely tied to a colonizing empire, thus becoming a self-insert for westerners. Just like how Zuko is a self-insert for Westerners who see themselves as better and actualized in the society they live in, Azula is the self-insert of those who want to look like a badass and in control. So seeing her hypocrisy and downfall directly tied to the failure of the empire and family she lived in (the western nuclear family model mind you) brings up very uncomfortable thoughts and feelings of a reality and lack of stability and absolution on their own part in liking her character and thinking that just knowing they live in an unfair society is enough to be a good and just person.
While I wish we got Book 4 to see her build back up, I'm glad her arc ended this way in the show. It's the only way to have given justice to all the people in the Earth Kingdom, including young girls her age, she hurt and it is no coincidence that she lost because she went after a girl her age she looked down on from a place her family colonized to spite her brother.
Thematically, you couldn't end this show with a wholly positive note. Yes the Fire Nation lost but the crimes still happened. We needed characters from the Fire Nation to represent that and Ozai and the red shirts was surely never going to be enough. We needed someone to represent the fact that the 100 year colonization war was completely pointless and Azula, a child who never had a childhood and risked her very young life for, was best equipped to express it. We needed to see the tragedy in what Fire Nation Supremacy and how they burn out everyone who comes near it.
And now she will be in the position Zuko was in Book 2 and have the opportunity to grow. And with Zuko and Iroh to help her (i don't acknowledge the comics at all bc screw that ableist nonesense) she is on a way better path to face the past, the crimes done to her and what she did and be able to grow. There's no way she could've finished her character growth in one season, if the writers tried it would've been so rushed and everyone would've hated it. She needs a couple more seasons at most to be able to conclude it
yea. healing for that girl will take years-it wouldn’t have made a lick of narrative or character sense if she was just ? better in the finale.
For when this video blows up in due time, I just wanna say I was here and called it!
i appreciate the optimism!!
Distinguish between “redemption” and a “redemption arc”. One belongs to an individual; the other belongs to a told story and to us, the audience receiving that story.
I'm absolutely SAT
omg hi
Omgs this sums it up so well. Thank you thank you thank you
Ah these videos are always just great
I love that Azula's new comic makes fun of stories where a bad person suddenly become good person. Even though she knows she's done bad things, she doesn't feel sorry about them at all. She lives the power and fear she has over others. But it hurts she alot that people she thinks love her run from her, even though she's so great. She's hurt that her mom would rather not let her brother die than just stay with her. She's hurt that her friends would choose to save zuko and get caught instead of be with her. And she's even hurt that the rebels would rather save a grunt than serve her. Azula likes being a bad person, but she also wants people to like her. She want love and companionship. She wants to be loved for who she is a monster.
Yes while ozai is a big part of her abuse, we see constantly that her mother, especially her mother’s outright favoritisim for zuko is a masive part of the problem. As we see her constantly harsh towards her literally saying to her seven year old’s face: what is wrong with… she says that child but she’s saying it around azula. The sad part is, compared to zuko, she had no support system since she didn’t have an uncle iro mother figure to help. The one time the one time we hear her mother genuinely show love… is during her mental breakdown. She is a massive part of the problem in her life maybe to the fact that in the other reading we learn that irsa was basically ripped away from her home and previous fiance, and was very unhappy possibly abused by him. So, she probably saw azula as proof that she had kids with ozai since she tried to fake a letter that zuko wasn’t hers.
I think ozai did honestly call dips on ozai, why his mom focuced on zuko to enable his softer sides. Because azula, she would get in trouble and if he is abusive to her, yeah she would fear him and that extent to azula he called dips on and he makes hard to reach.
I dont blame her if zuko is just easier to reach because ozai isolates azula kinda by having her call on anyone trying , while zuko is easier to reach as he doesnt care about him.
Azula got pretty early the golden child of a n abusive horrible dad :( , and zuko was just less risky to reach, azula was telling probably anyone getting close and ozai, warn them to back off??
I know thats implied but ther is a reason why they foster that in zuko because its hard for azula if ozais eye is permanently on her? .
Ok, but Azula was really cruel and sociopathic even as a kid, eg: taunting Zuko about Ozai going to kill him, calling Iroh weak for grieving the death of his son etc. I don't think it is fair to blame Ursa for being horrified by her or not liking her as much as Zuko. Remember Ursa was kidnapped and forced into marriage, she did not have kids with Ozai out of choice, and Azula's behaviour probably reminded her of Ozai, her abuser.
@@user-ny1wo1vp9r”it’s not fair to blame her for not liking her as much as Zuko” Azula is still her child, and picking favorites is bad parenting in general. Personally I think she just subconsciously adopted the mindset that Zuko is “hers” and Azula is “Ozai’s”.
@trashcan446 That's actually canon btw. In her solo comic there's a flashback to when her parents found out she was a firebender and when Ozai is pressing Ursa to tell Azula how proud she is (because he knows Ursa hates this whole situation, him finally getting his prodigy) she just looks sad and frightened and tells Azula "you are your father's daughter, Azula". She most definitely regretted this intensely but considering she was raising her children while being very emotionally scarred herself definitely didn't help in her parenting skills. As Hello Future Me put it "Ursa is an inadequate parent rather than a malevolent one".
Hopefully we find out once new avatar studios stuff starts coming as to what happens to Azula. Judging by end of latest comic Azula in the spirit temple it looks likely that Azula is being set up as some kind of a bandit or even a warlord. At least for immideate future
I wouldn't be so sure about that remember azula is a liar especially to herself. I don't think we can know how things will turn out.
I'd love to see you make a video on Jaime Lannister coming from a similar angle. He does spend some time trying to be better only to back peddle that effort in the end. There's an interesting conversation to be had there.
Yay for more Therapy via A:LaB analysis
I think another, very simplistic way of looking at redemption is by asking “did the narrative forgive them?” or “is the audience supposed to forgive them?” If the answer is yes, then the character is redeemed. It’s even less complex than morality math, it’s just a statement made by the story. In this sense, I also think a character “deserving” redemption is a question of whether or not the character in question _should_ be forgiven by the narrative, and therefore by the audience. And none of this is very interesting.
I think there are cases where the audience is expected to forgive a character (thus “redeeming” them), like Zuko and Iroh themselves, but there are also cases in which the story and/or the author doesn’t give an answer and expects you to come to your own conclusion. I just can’t think of any from Avatar. Sorry to poke the bear, Avatar fans, but Avatar is a kid’s show with pretty simple morality. Avatar is mature, but it isn’t complex.
To cite an example from my favorite series though, Enji Todoroki, aka Endeavor, from My Hero Academia, basically asks the question, “What if Ozai decided to become a better person?” Enji has mentally, emotionally and physically abused his wife and children (in his wife’s case he also abused her sexually by pressuring her into having more kids), all out of a selfish desire for glory, but when a certain event causes him to reflect on his life and ambition, he decides he wants to change and starts going to considerable lengths to make his family’s life better. As is to be expected, his arc is an object of heated debate amongst fans, some of whom applaud it as one of the best of the series while others claim it is irresponsible and problematic to give a redemption arc to an abuser. But then it comes to what the video says of what even is redemption. And if we take the colloquial definition of a “redemption arc” I put forth, Enji is never redeemed, because the text never outright states he should be forgiven, neither does it state the opposite. It’s up to you whether to forgive him or not. This is shown pretty clearly by how the people he hurt react to his change of heart: his wife and daughter are willing to reconnect, his second son refuses to forgive him and the youngest one doesn’t particularly like him but gives him the benefit of the doubt. And none of these reactions are treated as the “right” one to have. The only one who’s in the wrong is his eldest son, who hurt others in his revenge plot against his father.
All of this I think is a symptom of a larger thing. We crave finality. We want definitive answers to our questions because they allow us to comfortably move on knowing we’re on the right. For a long time, a character “redeeming” themselves meant they died doing the right thing to make up for the wrong and that’s it. That’s the end. Nowadays we don’t see one instance of good, even at the cost of one’s life as being enough to make up for a lifetime of evil, but we still want that finality, so we have heated debates over where exactly the line between redeemed and unredeemed is, when we could instead debate more interesting things.
kubera the last god is a really good webtoon thats one of my favourite mefdia ver and psychological and in all aspects, great,
and i dont want to say too much because its amazing mystery thats smart but emotional hitting hard one it falls, several characters. and it just gets better, andit already starts good.
Yeah an amazing redemption rc too that ends with, he does to do the right thing even agnowledging he will never be forgiven. And thats amazing. Also its a bit of several characters all great clashing and interactin and its great.
To be sure he isnt the only , ther is great moral exploration and dark thatits so engaging.
And it gets really, brilliant worldbuilding and how well gotten across and deep that gets and, ... yep one of my favourite media ever.
If it was impossible for Azula to be "redeemed" in the story, it wouldn't be interesting that she wasn't.
bingo
Leverage tv show. Eliot Spencer: “The worst thing I ever did, I did for him. And I’ll Never be clean of that.”
When we change, we realize that there are things we can never forgive ourselves for. Forgiveness is not Redemption.