I have been Vegan fro only about 8 years . Back in the 80s I studied photography at the Art institute of Atlanta and learned this about gelatin back then. I had forgotten about that till a few years ago and was reminded when I was watching a documentary on the rise and fall of Kodak. Fortunately I have been digital sense 2005 and would not go back.
I'm vegan from 11 years now. I quitted film photography for this reason however I went back to it, mostly when i heard the proportions of gelatin used... Gelatin in all argentic photgraphy industry cause less that one billionth of all animal exploitation. So thecnically it is not vegan however it is almost like it is.... like for a 36 pictures rolls, it requires less than 1 gram of gelatin. So that makes 1kg for 1000 rolls (36000 pictures). A cow is arround 600 to 700kg. Assuming that would "make" 250kg of gelatin at max, that makes 250 000 rolls of 36 pics. The very most productive photographers ever shooted arround 150 000 to 200 000 PICTURES (like Vivian Maier who made 150 000 pictures in more than 40 years. (so that makes arround AT THE VERY MAX 4500 rolls, so 4.5kg of gelatin! In all of their carreer that last for decades!!. So I chose to use film anyway. The impact is so ridiculous in animal exploitation that I didn't want to stop enjoy film photography considering all of this. There is absolutely no alternatives that have the same feeling. Emulation of the look can work for some but not for me And I still considering myself vegan because of the impact that is so tiny. Like in food when they said "possible trace of milk". HOWEVER this video is interesting and cool :)
First (but not last) problem with you argument is that you've overestimated gelatin yield per cow by a couple of orders of magnitude. Another problem is that it's all a bit like global warming - one person is generally irrelevant, but it's not just one person.... So Vivian Maier made 150k pictures - but by 1999 film sales were 800 million rolls per annum, in the US alone. It's a fraction of that now, but still tens of millions of rolls. Calculate the usage using the right yield figures, and you'll end up with millions of cows slaughtered to support the film industry throughout its history. That is not trivial - especially for someone who likes to call themselves 'vegan'. To mirror another element of your argument - the impact of your SUV (for example) is ridiculous in global warming terms, a mere puff, but the hundreds of millions driving fat cars who use that as a cover are, collectively, a not insignificant force for bad. Using film, once you have the information provided in this video, is to legitimize the non-essential killing of animals. Once that step where we consider it legitimate is taken, then the reasons for exploiting that legitimacy proliferate - "if he can do it for X, then i can do it for Y". I gave up film this morning, thanks to this young woman bringing something to my attention that i had never before realized. I wish i'd known it forty years ago.
@@luzr6613 I understand your point. It is legit. Maybe I fooled myself? Still, I quote an article from petapixel which says : "We are coating with about 3-9 grams per square meter, which equals 16 films" let's say 4 grams. That makes 0.25g per roll. So if i make a huge ammount of pictures in my life (4000 rolls at the very max if I live long enough) that would makes 4000*0.25g = 1kg. So it's pretty close to zero. Yet I totally understand your point when we look at the big pictures though considering the global market. It's like when food products is marked with "can contain milk traces" because they work in the same supply chain. Where do we draw the line. I quitted film photography restraining myself for the animals years before. But when I got back to it I realised it plays a super important role in my life now. I won't find the same feeling and process with digital. Being autistic, the whole process of film (meaning, to concentrate, to load and unload films, to develop, etc) is part of what makes me happy and keep me centered. I don't know what to think anymore. Also, hopefully they might use lab grown gelatin in the future no? I appreciate your feedback still. It's interesting to share views about this.
The Rousselot factory, the main provider of Photo Gelatin in Peabody Mass, announced they are closing operations at the end of 2023. Photo companies have been investing in alternatives. Will those be vegan? The closure is forcing R&D investment for the first time in over a century. Time will tell.
Right at the time where we need more people buying film and keep it alive…. This.. Hope we still have film for the next few good years though. Let’s see
I used to take photos with a Polaroid but stopped because it wasn’t vegan I bought later a digital camera but I thought it was difficult so now I only take pictures with an iPhone
Hey! Very informative video, and you really covered all the topics around gelatin in film. I've been eating vegan since 10+ years, and I am extremely sensitive to animal issues. However, I do shoot film and do darkroom prints, and I believe it to be a far more sustainable (and biodegradable!) solution for the planet than digital, which, if done professionally, requires constant upgrade of a lot of equipment, while the old gear, made of plastic and stuffed with batteries, is becoming useless a few years after purchase. I mean, everything: cameras, SD cards, computers, printers. It's a giant industry, far bigger and planet-harming than analog. As for the cows. A very important factor is not whether the cow died (we all die), but how it lived. I cannot talk for Kodak, but the European manufacturers are buying EU-made gelatin, and the EU has quite high ethical standards in farming. If the whole world suddenly goes vegan (which would not be sustainable, and would lead to decrease in the plant food quality because there would be pressure to suddenly grow a lot more of it without much natural fertilizers left - anyway,), I can just speak for Adox, but it won't be a problem. The amounts of gelatin used are so ridiculously small, that the current stock would last for another 20 years. In that time, we can have a couple of cows in our backyard, which in that time would die a natural death, and supply us with gelatin for 20 more years :) The very incorrect assumption is that "the companies should put a little extra effort in making vegan film". Back when the industry was huge, tens (or hundreds?) of millions were poured into finding a gelatin alternative, because a synthetic substitute would be more reliable than an organic substance. Nowadays, the industry is really tiny, and many companies, including such a famous one as Kodak, are on the edge of survival. Maybe, possibly, with modern technologies a vegan film would be possible, but unless a miraculous discovery just happens, financing several years of research without a guarantee of success is not realistic, at least not for the existing companies. They'd just bankrupt over it - or would have to charge 40 dollars per roll to finance that research. But then no one would buy film, and they would go bankrupt anyway. The "silver halide and gelatin" mix is so highly sophisticated, way beyond anything anyone can imagine, that re-engineering that mix is not "a little extra effort". We can remain hopeful for an accidental discovery, but realistically, pushing for reduced and ethical farming globally is a far more sustainable solution. Meanwhile, of course, very much hoping for affordable lab-grown gelatin! Thanks again for the video and raising this very interesting topic!
Lina, all correct. But very important for a vegan photographer is the fact that all digital cameras (and all advanced electronic products like computers, smartphones etc.) need PCB films for their production. Therefore also gelatin is needed for electronic products, too. And in much higher total volumes. Therefore digital imaging cannot be the alternative for a vegan.
I know this is an old comment, but I thought I should reply anyway. The notion that it's morally permissible to kill animals because "they will die anyway" is an awful idea. Using this reasoning, it would be OK to murder human beings because "we all will die someday". The unnecessary killing of an animal will always be wrong, regardless of the life it lived beforehand. If you adopted a child and gave them a good life, would it be OK to kill them because they had a good life? To address the sustainability question, the world will not go vegan all at once. That is a hypothetical scenario you just made up that has no basis in reality. The shift to veganism will be a gradual change, lasting years or even decades. This will give us plenty of time to address the fertiliser problem. Also - the only reason why we use animal fertilisers is because we have so much of it from animal agriculture. It is not any better inherently than plant based fertilisers. You made some very interesting points regarding the economics of switching to a vegan alternative to gelatin in the manufacturing of film. I know that I would personally be willing to spend $40 per roll of film, but I know that most people wouldn't. Hopefully once we address the bigger industries like meat, egg, and dairy production, we can look towards more niche things like film. Anyway, on a lighter note I am glad to see someone with such a big influence caring about animal rights. I love your videos and it makes me happy to hear that you are vegan too. All the best.
Yup... the by-product thing is simply a dodge. Anything that enhances the viability and profitability of these industries is unacceptable... and the profits from 'by-products' can work as an effective subsidy for whatever are the primary products. If i may make a suggestion: this product isn't just 'not vegan' - it's not vegetarian either. Substituting 'vegetarian' for 'vegan' obviously reaches a much larger constituency. Finally - i feel kind of 'stopped in my tracks' here. I really appreciate you bringing this to my attention as i'd 100% missed it. I'm feeling kind of sad (in that trivial 'about me' way) because photography is a big part of my everyday life. I mainly shoot digital, but I've 30 frames of XP2 left in the Spotmatic, and some Portra 160 rolls, and now i know what the subjects for them need to be. First World Problems... it's always so obvious what the answer ought to be. Thanks for your video - i didn't enjoy it (it flipped a part of 'my world') but i really appreciate it Lkd&Subd. All the best from a cabin in a swamp in a rainforest in New Zealand.
I apologize for the imperfect English, I read and write in English, but to make it faster I'm using an automatic translator. I knew triacetate films were partly made from animal material, but I didn't think PET backed films were either. Apart from this, I have always believed that the main problem of analogue photography was pollution due to the chemicals needed for production and development (primarily hydroquinone) and the need for large quantities of water. Both things, in my opinion, much more problematic than the recovery of organic materials from slaughterhouse waste, also because the effects on the environment and on animals (mainly aquatic) are likely to be much more long-term. I totally agree about the used equipment. Image quality hasn't been an issue since at least 2010, and there are millions of cheap used cameras and camcorders in great condition. If then we necessarily want new ones, at least let's use them for as long as possible, producing consumer goods is always polluting, the longer their life spans, the less impact they have. I'm curious about prints, have you been able to check if dye-sub prints also need gelatine or similar products in the paper or ribbon?
I went down the woke rabbit hole pretty awfully in my 20s, and it took me roughly the last few years to realize that it truly is madness… most of my “thoughts & opinions” (blind ideology) were fabricated by someone else. I felt more a stranger in my body when I was alt left than I ever did depressed, kinda had an existential crisis and lately find myself much more in the middle, just frustrating your videos are great but I can see the people you’re emulating speaking through you and it turns me off, but hey I’m just some dude. Good job at life and keep making art, who gives a F!ck what anyone thinks as long as you aren’t directly putting a bullet in someone’s brain, art is only good… unless it’s bad art then it isn’t good but that’s not what I am getting at haha
I thumbed up Old People Killing Factory! I'm vegetarian and professional photographer and while most of my work is digital, there is a demand for film. Film feels different in a way that some people love. I love film for certain kinds of photography and I offer it to my clients. I don't think digital can perfectly replace it for us. If there was a vegan alternative film, I would totally pay more for that. Like, if Kodak, Ilford and Fujifilm put out a vegan line, I'd switch to that. I do not have hope in that happening. Fujifilm keeps killing their lines and rebranding Kodak film as their own, and Kodak is one factory fire, or a couple of lawsuits away from dying. Unfortunately, Ilford doesn't produce color film stocks. Also, I had no idea that Instax used gelatin. Thank you for the heads up.
I honestly don’t think Kodak or ilford would ever put out vegan film as it’s not like vegans often don’t shoot film. Anyway, as a vego, personally black and white film is something I’m not going to give up
@@oversharingturtle4462 I just shot my first roll of B&W today! Ilford Delta 100. What are your go tos? Any film recommendations for portraits shot wide open at sunset? That’s like my 80% of my portraits.
Short version: At 8:15 Very dishonest moving the goalposts like that. I thought veganism was about not supporting ANY animal exploitation? How can it be wrong to use film because of the animal exploitation, but then turn around and it's okay to use digital, EVEN IF something in those cameras did have a negligent amount of animal exploitation, as long as you buy second-hand and use it long enough it's fine?? That's the sort of convenient rule-bending to serve your argument. Have you considered human exploitation in the camera industry? Lithium (used in rechargable batteries) mining is pretty sketchy, or...? Maybe that's modern slavery is better than animal exploitation, I wouldn't know and am not the one to adjudicate either way. At 6:01 The film manufacturers are all way less powerful these days. Kodak has almost gone bankrupt (I think more than once) and Fuji doesn't really care about their film manufacturing since it's such a tiny fraction of their business. If they were to throw money on R&D of new materials in their film production they'd just be hemorrhaging money. Wet plates are AWESOME! Long version: (sorry for bad english) I find it very dishonest the way you waive away any potential criticism at 8:15. You just moved the goalposts for what is considered "Ethical", if by ethical the only measurement is how much some animal exploitation you inadvertently supported. Maybe it's ethical to use digital cameras because the amount of animals being exploited to construct a digital camera is less than for a film. Maybe the Animal Exploitation to Photographic Equipment ratio is lower in digital photography. Did you consider human exploitation...? Maybe human exploitation isn't the same kind of evil as animal exploitation...? Wouldn't any technology using batteries be a no-go as well? For example Lithium mines are notorious for being very unhealthy working environments for the miners who are essentially a modern version of slave labour, and furthermore it absolutely decimates the surrounding ecosystem. Just saying that "Buying a used digital camera and using it till it falls apart makes it okay and ethical" works the other way around too. I could make the exact same argument to convince folks that "Actually, buying used film cameras is better since there aren't any new parts made with slave labour and the negligent amount of animals being exploited in film production isn't something to worry about since digital is much worse" or something along those lines... I haven't seen a battery-free digital cameras yet, but then again, maybe the slaves aren't considered a part of the animal kingdom or maybe human exploitation isn't as bad as animal exploitation. Also, regarding the point you made at 6:01 The companies producing film aren't as big as in their peak years (f.ex. Kodak peaked in the 90's and has almost gone bankrupt since; if I remember correctly they almost went bankrupt twice). They don't have the resources anymore to throw loads of funds on R&D for new film emulsions, let alone brand-new chemicals for use in the process of film production. These manufacturers rely on their tried, true and tested and working film recipes. Fuji is also discontinuing some of the film stocks they produce If anything, we need to buy more film to show that there does exist a market for it to spur more research into new emulsions. Being entirely vegan is a very noble cause in theory and I really respect the intent. But the singular focus in every aspect of life can't just be ending animal exploitation, there is so much more to this existence. Sorry if I sound mean, that isn't my intention, but I find this entire video to be either intellectually dishonest, wilfully ignorant or maybe even intentionally manipulative. In truth, there really aren't any easy "ethical" options or solutions. Sometimes things are even advertised as "vegan" despite not being so just to make it more palatable for modern audiences/consumers resulting in more sales and more profit. Who knows truly? Yes, I also know about the state of silver mining and it's effects on the environment, hardly any better than lithium, but that's my entire point here. Being so absolutely focused on one aspect makes you lose the whole picture before you, a.k.a. Tangent: I remember reading somewhere or maybe seeing a video talking about the consumption of chicken as a food item and how, on average, it impacts the environment less than eating vegetarian or something. I thought this was a mind-blowing fact but I can't for the life of me find this info again. Someone please help! Wow, I could make a video-essay response with the amount of text I just wrote. In closing I just want to say that I wholeheartedly agree with you that Wet-plate and cyanotypes are absolutely awesome and should be promoted more.
Thanks for posting this. I'm never swayed by the "no extra animals" argument for any animal use, because all revenue sources together sustain the industry and factor into the bottom line.
Child labor is a problem of Capitalism, the organization of industries, and cultural practices. Child labor can be stopped through regulation with the only 'downside' being slightly higher prices for commodities - that is, the problem is not the commodity per se, it is the method of it's production. Stopping it is a 'no-brainer' that just requires political will - ie your activism and your vote.
@@tofudog4u okay but did you buy a second-hand phone and if you bought a second-hand phone why'd you buy a phone at all because all these phones use lithium the computer that you use to upload this needed lithium everything you use needs lithium hell even the car you drive needs it so let me ask you this if you're so for the world why are you still using all these modern amenities all these things that make your life easier even though they undoubtedly make others lives harder what is it about this that you're okay with but people eating and consuming animals is a problem I'm trying to figure out do you like animal lives more than human lives or do you just not care enough about human lives to give up these modern amenities cause me personally I don't care enough about human life to give up all the things that make my life easier because I like easy life that's just the truth I'm sorry but it is and if you're the same just say it
@tofu_dog Buying second hand is not a perfect alternative either. Because electronics tends to die way sooner, compare to mechanical cameras. I won't have confidence in buying a second hand digital camera that I don't know how extensively it has been used and in wich condition, and that could die like 4 or 5 years after my purchase (and it will be impossible to repair it if it's electronic based). And also, if you buy second hand it's most probably not the recent cameras, meaning that the quality is not the same (because technology is evelving very fast too). Second hand could be an option, but not for everyone that is certain.
It's kind of interesting how they came to the conclusion that silver, alcohol and gelatin make up a wonderful (in terms of photosensitivity) light sensitive emulsion.
hey I would love to know where all these vegans get this wild misconception that most of the meat and dairy industry is cruel to animals because as somebody who's worked in that industry I can tell you that it is quite the opposite most all of the time now I'm not saying that there haven't been cases where people have done atrocious things but that is true for everything in life and as I've addressed to you in another comment stuff like mining for example what I don't get is why you compare it to an old people killing Factory because the truth of the matter is when it comes to dairy cows we don't just slaughter them we let them go as long as humanly possible because it's profitable the only time that dairy cows are killed is when they end up getting too sick by too sick I mean they will die anyway and we just want to put them out of their misery as fast as possible because I don't know if you've ever watched a cow die slowly but it is not a fun time and if we go into the meat industry I can tell you right now that meat cows are some of the most pampered cows out there at least anybody worth their s*** is going to pamper their cows because pampered cows mean lots of intramuscular fat which means Lots of money for the cuts of meat because they have higher intramuscular fat they're more tender because of those muscles were used less and weren't as stressed now when it comes to the meat industry in the US it's a little bit different the US media industry is about a 40 60 between good and bad now that is a problem the US should really address and the US market should eat less meat because first of all they're overeating it to an unhealthy amount just in general most people are the second problem is how meet in the US is produced for example in the US there is a chain of events that happened to cattle where they're pretty much packed in like sardines and fed super dense food to try an artificially give higher intramuscular fat which somewhat Works however the stakes made in this manner are usually tougher anyway because the muscles have been worked harder for longer but the truth is the majority of the world does not operate on the US is f***** up system of trying the artificially feed cows this stuff and that stuff and packing them in most of the world doesn't do that most of the world pasture raise their cows now people throw out the word organic but when it comes to farming I just want you to know only 5% of stuff is organic and that is true for everything so even the stuff you eat as a vegan I can guarantee you is not always organic so before you throw out I can address 100 more issues but this is already gotten to be long enough and if you're wondering where I work in Europe it was in Germany the country with the most cows in the entirety of Europe
Probably most of the people here don't consider killing an animal to be an act of good custodianship or kindness. We don't usually do it to our friends or family - that is frowned upon in most societies where taking one of those lives against its will is not considered either loving, kind or legitimate. It's a strange thing that people who do engage in these acts, when directed at non-human life, feel that they can legitimately claim that they treat these animals well, while all the time intending to kill them. In human on human interactions, that's a mentality that's usually considered psychopathic. On a slightly different tack - pasture raising - consider that 80% of the planet's arable area is devoted to either stock-raising directly, or growing food for livestock. That 80% produces a grand total of 18% of the protein consumed by humans. That system is massively inefficient and one of the key drivers of deforestation, desertification, erosion, pollution of waterways and aquifers, habitat loss, biodiversity loss and climate change. Treat yourself to a case-study of land-use in the Amazon where the destruction is largely driven by cattle-ranching and the production of soy for animal feed in China. Acquaint yourself with the actual-factuals if you're going to address '100 more issues'... it'll save you a lot of typing.
As a Former Agricultural Inspector whose worked in slaughterhouses and investigations for over 15 years I can unequivocally state that this idea of nice pampered farms is complete nonsense. 92 Billon land animals are breed into existence genetically engineered (meaning they suffer due to that manipulation) and all sent to a slaughterhouse. One that shoots mother cows in the skull sometimes still pregnant, puts baby pigs into gas chambers and electrocutes chickens skulls (some get gassed) that’s all before they’re hung up and slaughtered It’s very easy to say that it’s a minor problem that there are only so many bad farmers. Let’s pretend that most aren’t confined mutated or don’t suffer from illness. Even if just 1% of those beings suffer that would mean 920 million of them would suffer. Do you honestly think up to 1% of them don’t suffer? Let’s pretend they don’t. Why then are we talking a life they’re one and only existence for a meal, that doesn’t equate
I have been Vegan fro only about 8 years . Back in the 80s I studied photography at the Art institute of Atlanta and learned this about gelatin back then. I had forgotten about that till a few years ago and was reminded when I was watching a documentary on the rise and fall of Kodak. Fortunately I have been digital sense 2005 and would not go back.
I'm vegan from 11 years now. I quitted film photography for this reason however I went back to it, mostly when i heard the proportions of gelatin used... Gelatin in all argentic photgraphy industry cause less that one billionth of all animal exploitation. So thecnically it is not vegan however it is almost like it is.... like for a 36 pictures rolls, it requires less than 1 gram of gelatin. So that makes 1kg for 1000 rolls (36000 pictures). A cow is arround 600 to 700kg. Assuming that would "make" 250kg of gelatin at max, that makes 250 000 rolls of 36 pics. The very most productive photographers ever shooted arround 150 000 to 200 000 PICTURES (like Vivian Maier who made 150 000 pictures in more than 40 years. (so that makes arround AT THE VERY MAX 4500 rolls, so 4.5kg of gelatin! In all of their carreer that last for decades!!. So I chose to use film anyway. The impact is so ridiculous in animal exploitation that I didn't want to stop enjoy film photography considering all of this. There is absolutely no alternatives that have the same feeling. Emulation of the look can work for some but not for me And I still considering myself vegan because of the impact that is so tiny. Like in food when they said "possible trace of milk". HOWEVER this video is interesting and cool :)
First (but not last) problem with you argument is that you've overestimated gelatin yield per cow by a couple of orders of magnitude. Another problem is that it's all a bit like global warming - one person is generally irrelevant, but it's not just one person.... So Vivian Maier made 150k pictures - but by 1999 film sales were 800 million rolls per annum, in the US alone. It's a fraction of that now, but still tens of millions of rolls. Calculate the usage using the right yield figures, and you'll end up with millions of cows slaughtered to support the film industry throughout its history. That is not trivial - especially for someone who likes to call themselves 'vegan'. To mirror another element of your argument - the impact of your SUV (for example) is ridiculous in global warming terms, a mere puff, but the hundreds of millions driving fat cars who use that as a cover are, collectively, a not insignificant force for bad. Using film, once you have the information provided in this video, is to legitimize the non-essential killing of animals. Once that step where we consider it legitimate is taken, then the reasons for exploiting that legitimacy proliferate - "if he can do it for X, then i can do it for Y". I gave up film this morning, thanks to this young woman bringing something to my attention that i had never before realized. I wish i'd known it forty years ago.
@@luzr6613 I understand your point. It is legit. Maybe I fooled myself? Still, I quote an article from petapixel which says : "We are coating with about 3-9 grams per square meter, which equals 16 films" let's say 4 grams. That makes 0.25g per roll. So if i make a huge ammount of pictures in my life (4000 rolls at the very max if I live long enough) that would makes 4000*0.25g = 1kg. So it's pretty close to zero. Yet I totally understand your point when we look at the big pictures though considering the global market. It's like when food products is marked with "can contain milk traces" because they work in the same supply chain. Where do we draw the line. I quitted film photography restraining myself for the animals years before. But when I got back to it I realised it plays a super important role in my life now. I won't find the same feeling and process with digital. Being autistic, the whole process of film (meaning, to concentrate, to load and unload films, to develop, etc) is part of what makes me happy and keep me centered. I don't know what to think anymore. Also, hopefully they might use lab grown gelatin in the future no? I appreciate your feedback still. It's interesting to share views about this.
The Nikon Df shown at 0:13 is actually a digital camera, not film.
The Rousselot factory, the main provider of Photo Gelatin in Peabody Mass, announced they are closing operations at the end of 2023. Photo companies have been investing in alternatives. Will those be vegan? The closure is forcing R&D investment for the first time in over a century. Time will tell.
Interesting, thank you for sharing!
Right at the time where we need more people buying film and keep it alive…. This..
Hope we still have film for the next few good years though. Let’s see
So it's simply impossible to be a professional photographer without gelatin. We can use digital cameras but we can't get decent prints.
I used to take photos with a Polaroid but stopped because it wasn’t vegan I bought later a digital camera but I thought it was difficult so now I only take pictures with an iPhone
Hey! Very informative video, and you really covered all the topics around gelatin in film. I've been eating vegan since 10+ years, and I am extremely sensitive to animal issues. However, I do shoot film and do darkroom prints, and I believe it to be a far more sustainable (and biodegradable!) solution for the planet than digital, which, if done professionally, requires constant upgrade of a lot of equipment, while the old gear, made of plastic and stuffed with batteries, is becoming useless a few years after purchase. I mean, everything: cameras, SD cards, computers, printers. It's a giant industry, far bigger and planet-harming than analog.
As for the cows. A very important factor is not whether the cow died (we all die), but how it lived. I cannot talk for Kodak, but the European manufacturers are buying EU-made gelatin, and the EU has quite high ethical standards in farming.
If the whole world suddenly goes vegan (which would not be sustainable, and would lead to decrease in the plant food quality because there would be pressure to suddenly grow a lot more of it without much natural fertilizers left - anyway,), I can just speak for Adox, but it won't be a problem. The amounts of gelatin used are so ridiculously small, that the current stock would last for another 20 years. In that time, we can have a couple of cows in our backyard, which in that time would die a natural death, and supply us with gelatin for 20 more years :)
The very incorrect assumption is that "the companies should put a little extra effort in making vegan film". Back when the industry was huge, tens (or hundreds?) of millions were poured into finding a gelatin alternative, because a synthetic substitute would be more reliable than an organic substance. Nowadays, the industry is really tiny, and many companies, including such a famous one as Kodak, are on the edge of survival. Maybe, possibly, with modern technologies a vegan film would be possible, but unless a miraculous discovery just happens, financing several years of research without a guarantee of success is not realistic, at least not for the existing companies. They'd just bankrupt over it - or would have to charge 40 dollars per roll to finance that research. But then no one would buy film, and they would go bankrupt anyway. The "silver halide and gelatin" mix is so highly sophisticated, way beyond anything anyone can imagine, that re-engineering that mix is not "a little extra effort". We can remain hopeful for an accidental discovery, but realistically, pushing for reduced and ethical farming globally is a far more sustainable solution. Meanwhile, of course, very much hoping for affordable lab-grown gelatin!
Thanks again for the video and raising this very interesting topic!
Lina, all correct. But very important for a vegan photographer is the fact that all digital cameras (and all advanced electronic products like computers, smartphones etc.) need PCB films for their production. Therefore also gelatin is needed for electronic products, too. And in much higher total volumes. Therefore digital imaging cannot be the alternative for a vegan.
@@henningserger907 really interesting! Thank you!
I know this is an old comment, but I thought I should reply anyway. The notion that it's morally permissible to kill animals because "they will die anyway" is an awful idea. Using this reasoning, it would be OK to murder human beings because "we all will die someday". The unnecessary killing of an animal will always be wrong, regardless of the life it lived beforehand. If you adopted a child and gave them a good life, would it be OK to kill them because they had a good life? To address the sustainability question, the world will not go vegan all at once. That is a hypothetical scenario you just made up that has no basis in reality. The shift to veganism will be a gradual change, lasting years or even decades. This will give us plenty of time to address the fertiliser problem. Also - the only reason why we use animal fertilisers is because we have so much of it from animal agriculture. It is not any better inherently than plant based fertilisers. You made some very interesting points regarding the economics of switching to a vegan alternative to gelatin in the manufacturing of film. I know that I would personally be willing to spend $40 per roll of film, but I know that most people wouldn't. Hopefully once we address the bigger industries like meat, egg, and dairy production, we can look towards more niche things like film. Anyway, on a lighter note I am glad to see someone with such a big influence caring about animal rights. I love your videos and it makes me happy to hear that you are vegan too. All the best.
With love ❤️
Yup... the by-product thing is simply a dodge. Anything that enhances the viability and profitability of these industries is unacceptable... and the profits from 'by-products' can work as an effective subsidy for whatever are the primary products.
If i may make a suggestion: this product isn't just 'not vegan' - it's not vegetarian either. Substituting 'vegetarian' for 'vegan' obviously reaches a much larger constituency.
Finally - i feel kind of 'stopped in my tracks' here. I really appreciate you bringing this to my attention as i'd 100% missed it. I'm feeling kind of sad (in that trivial 'about me' way) because photography is a big part of my everyday life. I mainly shoot digital, but I've 30 frames of XP2 left in the Spotmatic, and some Portra 160 rolls, and now i know what the subjects for them need to be. First World Problems... it's always so obvious what the answer ought to be. Thanks for your video - i didn't enjoy it (it flipped a part of 'my world') but i really appreciate it Lkd&Subd. All the best from a cabin in a swamp in a rainforest in New Zealand.
This is so good👏👏excited for what's next!
Hey Tofudog I’m here from Vegan Gazes stream🥗!Subbd great video 🌱
Very happy to have you here, thank you for the kind words!
Momma don’t take my Kodachrome away
I find this offensive as meat eater
I apologize for the imperfect English, I read and write in English, but to make it faster I'm using an automatic translator.
I knew triacetate films were partly made from animal material, but I didn't think PET backed films were either.
Apart from this, I have always believed that the main problem of analogue photography was pollution due to the chemicals needed for production and development (primarily hydroquinone) and the need for large quantities of water. Both things, in my opinion, much more problematic than the recovery of organic materials from slaughterhouse waste, also because the effects on the environment and on animals (mainly aquatic) are likely to be much more long-term.
I totally agree about the used equipment. Image quality hasn't been an issue since at least 2010, and there are millions of cheap used cameras and camcorders in great condition. If then we necessarily want new ones, at least let's use them for as long as possible, producing consumer goods is always polluting, the longer their life spans, the less impact they have.
I'm curious about prints, have you been able to check if dye-sub prints also need gelatine or similar products in the paper or ribbon?
I went down the woke rabbit hole pretty awfully in my 20s, and it took me roughly the last few years to realize that it truly is madness… most of my “thoughts & opinions” (blind ideology) were fabricated by someone else. I felt more a stranger in my body when I was alt left than I ever did depressed, kinda had an existential crisis and lately find myself much more in the middle, just frustrating your videos are great but I can see the people you’re emulating speaking through you and it turns me off, but hey I’m just some dude. Good job at life and keep making art, who gives a F!ck what anyone thinks as long as you aren’t directly putting a bullet in someone’s brain, art is only good… unless it’s bad art then it isn’t good but that’s not what I am getting at haha
I thumbed up Old People Killing Factory!
I'm vegetarian and professional photographer and while most of my work is digital, there is a demand for film. Film feels different in a way that some people love. I love film for certain kinds of photography and I offer it to my clients. I don't think digital can perfectly replace it for us.
If there was a vegan alternative film, I would totally pay more for that. Like, if Kodak, Ilford and Fujifilm put out a vegan line, I'd switch to that. I do not have hope in that happening. Fujifilm keeps killing their lines and rebranding Kodak film as their own, and Kodak is one factory fire, or a couple of lawsuits away from dying. Unfortunately, Ilford doesn't produce color film stocks.
Also, I had no idea that Instax used gelatin. Thank you for the heads up.
I honestly don’t think Kodak or ilford would ever put out vegan film as it’s not like vegans often don’t shoot film. Anyway, as a vego, personally black and white film is something I’m not going to give up
@@oversharingturtle4462 I just shot my first roll of B&W today! Ilford Delta 100. What are your go tos? Any film recommendations for portraits shot wide open at sunset? That’s like my 80% of my portraits.
Short version:
At 8:15 Very dishonest moving the goalposts like that. I thought veganism was about not supporting ANY animal exploitation? How can it be wrong to use film because of the animal exploitation, but then turn around and it's okay to use digital, EVEN IF something in those cameras did have a negligent amount of animal exploitation, as long as you buy second-hand and use it long enough it's fine?? That's the sort of convenient rule-bending to serve your argument.
Have you considered human exploitation in the camera industry? Lithium (used in rechargable batteries) mining is pretty sketchy, or...? Maybe that's modern slavery is better than animal exploitation, I wouldn't know and am not the one to adjudicate either way.
At 6:01 The film manufacturers are all way less powerful these days. Kodak has almost gone bankrupt (I think more than once) and Fuji doesn't really care about their film manufacturing since it's such a tiny fraction of their business. If they were to throw money on R&D of new materials in their film production they'd just be hemorrhaging money.
Wet plates are AWESOME!
Long version: (sorry for bad english)
I find it very dishonest the way you waive away any potential criticism at 8:15. You just moved the goalposts for what is considered "Ethical", if by ethical the only measurement is how much some animal exploitation you inadvertently supported.
Maybe it's ethical to use digital cameras because the amount of animals being exploited to construct a digital camera is less than for a film.
Maybe the Animal Exploitation to Photographic Equipment ratio is lower in digital photography. Did you consider human exploitation...?
Maybe human exploitation isn't the same kind of evil as animal exploitation...?
Wouldn't any technology using batteries be a no-go as well? For example Lithium mines are notorious for being very unhealthy working environments for the miners who are essentially a modern version of slave labour, and furthermore it absolutely decimates the surrounding ecosystem. Just saying that "Buying a used digital camera and using it till it falls apart makes it okay and ethical" works the other way around too. I could make the exact same argument to convince folks that "Actually, buying used film cameras is better since there aren't any new parts made with slave labour and the negligent amount of animals being exploited in film production isn't something to worry about since digital is much worse" or something along those lines...
I haven't seen a battery-free digital cameras yet, but then again, maybe the slaves aren't considered a part of the animal kingdom or maybe human exploitation isn't as bad as animal exploitation.
Also, regarding the point you made at 6:01
The companies producing film aren't as big as in their peak years (f.ex. Kodak peaked in the 90's and has almost gone bankrupt since; if I remember correctly they almost went bankrupt twice). They don't have the resources anymore to throw loads of funds on R&D for new film emulsions, let alone brand-new chemicals for use in the process of film production. These manufacturers rely on their tried, true and tested and working film recipes. Fuji is also discontinuing some of the film stocks they produce If anything, we need to buy more film to show that there does exist a market for it to spur more research into new emulsions.
Being entirely vegan is a very noble cause in theory and I really respect the intent. But the singular focus in every aspect of life can't just be ending animal exploitation, there is so much more to this existence. Sorry if I sound mean, that isn't my intention, but I find this entire video to be either intellectually dishonest, wilfully ignorant or maybe even intentionally manipulative.
In truth, there really aren't any easy "ethical" options or solutions. Sometimes things are even advertised as "vegan" despite not being so just to make it more palatable for modern audiences/consumers resulting in more sales and more profit. Who knows truly?
Yes, I also know about the state of silver mining and it's effects on the environment, hardly any better than lithium, but that's my entire point here. Being so absolutely focused on one aspect makes you lose the whole picture before you, a.k.a.
Tangent: I remember reading somewhere or maybe seeing a video talking about the consumption of chicken as a food item and how, on average, it impacts the environment less than eating vegetarian or something. I thought this was a mind-blowing fact but I can't for the life of me find this info again. Someone please help!
Wow, I could make a video-essay response with the amount of text I just wrote.
In closing I just want to say that I wholeheartedly agree with you that Wet-plate and cyanotypes are absolutely awesome and should be promoted more.
Which animals are “exploited”?
The ones that are turned into gelatin. Watch the documentary Dominion- it's free on UA-cam and will show you what I'm talking about
Thanks for posting this. I'm never swayed by the "no extra animals" argument for any animal use, because all revenue sources together sustain the industry and factor into the bottom line.
Sorry, but I’ll take Art over veganism any day… digital photography is for the birds, man
But girly your not going to eat the film , just take photos.
Veganism is not a diet, although this is a common misconception! Veganism is about ending animal exploitation, which goes beyond diet :)
Dawg I think an actual issue is the CHILD LABOR that was used to mine the lithium in ur camera battery
I suggested buying a second hand camera, thereby mitigating the demand for lithium :)
Child labor is a problem of Capitalism, the organization of industries, and cultural practices. Child labor can be stopped through regulation with the only 'downside' being slightly higher prices for commodities - that is, the problem is not the commodity per se, it is the method of it's production. Stopping it is a 'no-brainer' that just requires political will - ie your activism and your vote.
@@tofudog4u okay but did you buy a second-hand phone and if you bought a second-hand phone why'd you buy a phone at all because all these phones use lithium the computer that you use to upload this needed lithium everything you use needs lithium hell even the car you drive needs it so let me ask you this if you're so for the world why are you still using all these modern amenities all these things that make your life easier even though they undoubtedly make others lives harder what is it about this that you're okay with but people eating and consuming animals is a problem I'm trying to figure out do you like animal lives more than human lives or do you just not care enough about human lives to give up these modern amenities cause me personally I don't care enough about human life to give up all the things that make my life easier because I like easy life that's just the truth I'm sorry but it is and if you're the same just say it
@tofu_dog Buying second hand is not a perfect alternative either. Because electronics tends to die way sooner, compare to mechanical cameras. I won't have confidence in buying a second hand digital camera that I don't know how extensively it has been used and in wich condition, and that could die like 4 or 5 years after my purchase (and it will be impossible to repair it if it's electronic based). And also, if you buy second hand it's most probably not the recent cameras, meaning that the quality is not the same (because technology is evelving very fast too). Second hand could be an option, but not for everyone that is certain.
Thank you very much for the video. I will definitely increase my meat consumption to save analog film.
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TIL
Vegan 😁
I'm going to buy some film, and a steak. Take photos of me eating that steak. SMH
Maybe we should teach lions to only eat salad. They have been doing it wrong all this time.
This was really informative! I didn’t know that film used gelatin
It's kind of interesting how they came to the conclusion that silver, alcohol and gelatin make up a wonderful (in terms of photosensitivity) light sensitive emulsion.
Cellphones are build by slave labor: yes that cell you use everday and minute if the day
didn't ask , dont care
You clearly care enough to click on the video, type out a comment, and then post the comment.
Sensitive meatflakes care deeply about vegan-related topics.
If they didn't, they wouldn't make silly comments like yours ;)
I was about to buy one of those cameras, i am so glad i did not. Thanks for making this video!
I'm not a vegan and not planning to become one, but this video was pretty informative and answers intresting question. Tnx
What's the reason you aren't vegan?
@@Icex7 I think my answer will be inappropriate in comments on this channel
hey I would love to know where all these vegans get this wild misconception that most of the meat and dairy industry is cruel to animals because as somebody who's worked in that industry I can tell you that it is quite the opposite most all of the time now I'm not saying that there haven't been cases where people have done atrocious things but that is true for everything in life and as I've addressed to you in another comment stuff like mining for example what I don't get is why you compare it to an old people killing Factory because the truth of the matter is when it comes to dairy cows we don't just slaughter them we let them go as long as humanly possible because it's profitable the only time that dairy cows are killed is when they end up getting too sick by too sick I mean they will die anyway and we just want to put them out of their misery as fast as possible because I don't know if you've ever watched a cow die slowly but it is not a fun time and if we go into the meat industry I can tell you right now that meat cows are some of the most pampered cows out there at least anybody worth their s*** is going to pamper their cows because pampered cows mean lots of intramuscular fat which means Lots of money for the cuts of meat because they have higher intramuscular fat they're more tender because of those muscles were used less and weren't as stressed now when it comes to the meat industry in the US it's a little bit different the US media industry is about a 40 60 between good and bad now that is a problem the US should really address and the US market should eat less meat because first of all they're overeating it to an unhealthy amount just in general most people are the second problem is how meet in the US is produced for example in the US there is a chain of events that happened to cattle where they're pretty much packed in like sardines and fed super dense food to try an artificially give higher intramuscular fat which somewhat Works however the stakes made in this manner are usually tougher anyway because the muscles have been worked harder for longer but the truth is the majority of the world does not operate on the US is f***** up system of trying the artificially feed cows this stuff and that stuff and packing them in most of the world doesn't do that most of the world pasture raise their cows now people throw out the word organic but when it comes to farming I just want you to know only 5% of stuff is organic and that is true for everything so even the stuff you eat as a vegan I can guarantee you is not always organic so before you throw out
I can address 100 more issues but this is already gotten to be long enough and if you're wondering where I work in Europe it was in Germany the country with the most cows in the entirety of Europe
ua-cam.com/video/LQRAfJyEsko/v-deo.html
Probably most of the people here don't consider killing an animal to be an act of good custodianship or kindness. We don't usually do it to our friends or family - that is frowned upon in most societies where taking one of those lives against its will is not considered either loving, kind or legitimate. It's a strange thing that people who do engage in these acts, when directed at non-human life, feel that they can legitimately claim that they treat these animals well, while all the time intending to kill them. In human on human interactions, that's a mentality that's usually considered psychopathic. On a slightly different tack - pasture raising - consider that 80% of the planet's arable area is devoted to either stock-raising directly, or growing food for livestock. That 80% produces a grand total of 18% of the protein consumed by humans. That system is massively inefficient and one of the key drivers of deforestation, desertification, erosion, pollution of waterways and aquifers, habitat loss, biodiversity loss and climate change. Treat yourself to a case-study of land-use in the Amazon where the destruction is largely driven by cattle-ranching and the production of soy for animal feed in China. Acquaint yourself with the actual-factuals if you're going to address '100 more issues'... it'll save you a lot of typing.
@@tofudog4uyour source is a youtube video........
a documentary made by vegans with an agenda is basically propaganda and not representative of the industry.@@tofudog4u
As a Former Agricultural Inspector whose worked in slaughterhouses and investigations for over 15 years I can unequivocally state that this idea of nice pampered farms is complete nonsense.
92 Billon land animals are breed into existence genetically engineered (meaning they suffer due to that manipulation) and all sent to a slaughterhouse.
One that shoots mother cows in the skull sometimes still pregnant, puts baby pigs into gas chambers and electrocutes chickens skulls (some get gassed) that’s all before they’re hung up and slaughtered
It’s very easy to say that it’s a minor problem that there are only so many bad farmers.
Let’s pretend that most aren’t confined mutated or don’t suffer from illness.
Even if just 1% of those beings suffer that would mean 920 million of them would suffer.
Do you honestly think up to 1% of them don’t suffer?
Let’s pretend they don’t.
Why then are we talking a life they’re one and only existence for a meal, that doesn’t equate
Potatoes are grown in horse poop and you're more worried about film not being vegan 😑
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