It’s like the Jaffa in Stargate with their engineered dependence on Goa’uld symbiotes - it took more than one person to synthesise an alternative AND it took one guy - Teal’c - going rogue from serving the Goa’uld to start a rebellion
Correction on Stargate Lore: 1. The Jaffa Tretonin substitute you are referring to was discovered by SG-1, ironically the alternative is made from crushed Goa'uld symbiotes, so in essence the slaves have become cannibals in order to to live, they have begun eating their former masters :P Poetic justice for such a nasty alien species, but still it wasn't perfect. 2. Teal'c was not the 1st person to rebel, in Stargate Season SG1 9 and 10 we learn that other Jaffa rebellions have been happening throughout history. What Teal'c did was help begin collecting the many disparate groups of rebels with Tauri/human alliance that eventually won them their freedom, along with a nice sized swath of real estate before the Ori Crusade . Stargate Lore should be explored at some point, I know @Lore Reloaded you have considered it at points, but it's a large undertaking and you really have to get into the concept of Stargate versus Star Trek mentality. At first, Stargate Command is first and foremost a military operation, exploration is only happening for the benefit of Earth's defenses, whether that is ethical or not is kind of the general theme of some episodes like "Shades of Grey" or "The Other Side". They later adopted a Star Trek-esque mentality with Atlantis and later season of Stargate, once humans established ourselves as a formidable species in the galaxy, though our star fleet was puny in comparison. Later series, into the Destiny era, Stargate Universe, was definitely Star Trek inspired if not a full on Voyager., there was almost little to no comedy left. By that point, humanity had acquired a sizable "battle capable" fleet of warships, had bases in two galaxies, and operated as the superpower in the milky way galaxy. At that point, sure going down Star Trek route seems fine.
@@time391 O'Brian ignoring all orders and destroying the Research was wrong no matter how you look at it. It was just extremly wrong. And this is absolutely not about Bashir having 'not enough Authority to decide', that's nonsense. This was the Chance to have a change the situation - its the Paranoia from 'Pen Pals' of TNG that it could make everything worse 'in theory'. There's also certain chances how a Slave Race will react in that situation, but well, whatever. Funny enough, Stargate actually explores this, unlike Star Trek. As they do with a lot, that Star Trek can't...
@@bigyubyub O'Brian ignoring all orders and destroying the Research was wrong no matter how you look at it. It was just extremly wrong. And this is absolutely not about Bashir having 'not enough Authority to decide', that's nonsense. This was the Chance to have a change the situation - its the Paranoia from 'Pen Pals' of TNG that it could make everything worse 'in theory'. There's also certain chances how a Slave Race will react in that situation, but well, whatever. Funny enough, Stargate actually explores this, unlike Star Trek. As they do with a lot, that Star Trek can't...
@@slevinchannel7589 Not sure if you are responding to me or Master Yubyub. I think you meant the latter as I was addressing a point made in connection with Stargate Lore. In terms of military Sci-Fi, Stargate franchise handles Prime Directive issues with a little more nuance, it's there and not absolute, like Tollan practice zero tolerance or Nox fave "inaction"/"indirect action" (they are smart enough to do things without actually doing it for you), while Asgard favor "preemptive limited" action, when dealing with lesser advanced species.
Apparently, in addition to sending an engineer to do a bio survey, you send your senior doctor. Does DS9 have no junior science officers? Is Dax on vacation?
That’s a big problem with DS9. All the other shows have involved long range ships that must, to a greater or lesser extent, rely on the skills of their small crews in isolation, so they have to be generalists. When this show was a rugged outpost you could have done the same, but the strategic and commercial value of the wormhole gradually saw more and more assets committed to the Bajoran sector. Then it became a story of diplomacy and international relations, and especially of military conflict on a massive scale, a total war that could strain the resources of a civilization that controlled thousands of planets. But the production team had neither the resources nor the desire for a cast of thousands, so they kept sending the same few characters on jobs for which they were not specialized.
As I recall, Dax is also technically second in command on DS9; at least in regards to Starfleet matters. It makes sense why she wouldn't be sent on a mission of low importance. Bashier being the CMO on a space station, despite being a simple Lieutenant at the time did seem stranger though. Typically, that role is given to a Lt. Commander, or in Dr. Crusher's case, a Commander.
Bashir & O'Brien should have taken another blood sample from the 1st. It would of taken only a second. Then Bashir could of continued his research at DS9. There he would be able to get help not only from the Federations, but almost every major power in the Alpha & Beta quadrants. Breaking the Founders' control over the Jem'hedar could severely weaken the Dominion. We already know that the first is far from the only rebel Jem'hedar. Section 31 just needs to find these rebels & make a deal with them.
This episode is one of those gray one in that both Julian and Miles were right with the defining factor being that Miles could see the bigger picture while Julian was too focused on finding a cure which is perfectly fine but as stated he should have done so using the full knowledge and experience of Starfleet Medical. Yes Julian went to DS9 to work on frontier Medicine, but he'd already had the big moment of curing a plague when he helped the Teplans cure the Blight which was the original name for it before it was changed to the Quickening which was the name of the episode.
He's as you put it MORE then once. An its probably also been on record too I imagine. If hed done it in THIS age... Bashir woulda been kicked out and lost his commission.. and Medical License a LONG time ago
@@malusignatius it's in the novel, Julian saw the population of Andorian declining due to their mating problem and the federation do nothing to save the founding species and thus the Andorian angrily withdrew their membership from the Federation, Julian later save the species with a cure from extinction and the Federation declared him a criminal because he save the Andorian without the Federation approval, this is shown the cruel side of the Federation
I agree on almost every point. It's a good idea to bring a tech guy along when you're dealing with equipment as over-complicated and finicky as federation tech and it's not known if the bio guy is capable of maintaining and repairing it.
This left out a lot of context for this episode...ya know the fact that jem'hadar are genetically designed and predisposed to be aggressive, xenophobic and violent towards anything that isn't a founder and the first was essentially a genetic aberration that didn't require the white to survive, safe to assume his "free thought" was also an aberration. It's clear through the course of the episode that his "men" didn't really agree with or understand his actions or thinking...they kind of just followed and obeyed him because they respected his position as first and they're kinda bred to instinctively be obedient and follow orders etc...no doubt if there was a founder changeling around they would have immediately killed the first if ordered to. When we take this episode and compare it with the episode where they find a jem'hadar baby who grows to full maturity in days if not hours we learn just how dangerous and uncontrollable they truly are, we're talking about an "unnatural" mass produced organic sentient weapon with inherited genetic memories and combat skills who's sole desire and instinct seems to be to fight and kill anything and everything that isn't them or a founder...and the vorta clearly states "the founders ability to control the jem'hadar might have been slightly exaggerated" to which someone says "of course or you wouldn't need the "white"...knowing this it's obvious the "first" wasn't just a physical anomaly, it's clear his mental and emotional "inclinations" deviated from the standard norm as well... This is not a bunch of small docile, properly socialised, domesticated and harmless lap dogs you can simply let off their leash without any danger or consequences...they're more like a pack of rabid abused and neglected pitbulls who've only ever known violence and cruelty...the naive bleeding hearted doctor might have wanted to offer the federations hand in friendship and display compassion but they'd only get bitten or worse mauled for their trouble.
@@LoreReloaded O'Brian ignoring all orders and destroying the Research was wrong no matter how you look at it. It was just extremly wrong. And this is absolutely not about Bashir having 'not enough Authority to decide', that's nonsense. This was the Chance to have a change the situation - its the Paranoia from 'Pen Pals' of TNG that it could make everything worse 'in theory'. There's also certain chances how a Slave Race will react in that situation, but well, whatever. Funny enough, Stargate actually explores this, unlike Star Trek. As they do with a lot, that Star Trek can't...
I don't think morally you can try to game out consequences when rendering medical aid. We expect doctors to provide aid to all regardless of the circumstance. We don't know the future but we do know we have a group of people who are being tortured by their dependence on this substance. There is a saying that you attend to the present that let the future manage itself.
Great take on this Lore Reloaded but i would have added a well known fact. O'Brian yes was a chief engineer but he was also a very experienced infantry soldier. On many occasions in TNG and DS9 he brought up past stories of his years in battle fronts. So even though Bashir had good intentions his lack of field experience lead him down the wrong path. Thankfully which in my opinion why O'Brian was written into this, his experience taught him what Bashir was doing was a very bad idea.
I havent seen a fleet around any of the federation star bases except for during war time. Heck they clearly didnt have one around earth since it got attacked directly. Now the stations do hold their own if ds9 is any kind of example. Just upgraded it did destroy 40 plus ships. We really need more info on star fleets space station specs.
One way for Jem hadar to integrate into the Federation - they can become a race of team sports athletes, assuming they can adapt to non injury rules. In the seedier places of the Federation, they'd be mma athletes. Klingons would probably love going into the ring with them.
LOL, that makes me imagine what that the Volkanoski-Ortega title fight would've been like if they'd been a Jem'Hadar and a Klingon, respectively. "Brian, honor has been satisfied. Stay down!"
I didn't think of the idea that for every "First", there'd be a Khan, so that in itself is an excellent argument against Julian saving them from their addiction. It would have been nice to see the Jem'hadar go to Starfleet medical and get treated there, but I wouldn't buy it if they agreed to that. These Jem'hadar don't trust their own people, why trust anyone from Starfleet?
I have a question for you, Mr Lore Meister. In the TNG episode Season 2, Episode 7, "Unnatural Selection", the Enterprise crew visit a research station where they are literally creating genetically engineered children. The children are built to be perfect and "the next step in humanity". Yet by the time of DS9, we learn that genetically enhancing someone is illegal, and Bashir's parents are sent to prison. Similarly, we learn that Dr Soong in Enterprise has created genetically engineered people and they are essentially illegal at this time too. Can you explain why the scientists in the TNG episode aren't all sent to prison and the created children vaporised on the spot?
The colony where the genetically engineered children were being created had seceded from the Federation, for reason of that very law, though clearly they still had a good relationship, since when they sent out a request for assistance the Enterprise was sent, and the Enterprise crew were treated as honoured guests. Not being part of the Federation, Federation law did not apply.
@@sundoga4961 Because the way to get around laws the Federation has to prevent another Khan is to secede, which will give you friendly relations rather than a couple of angry heavy cruisers parked above your world saying "no, on all counts".
@@mjbull5156 Yes. The Federation claims to be, and actually walks the walk on this, a voluntary association of species and worlds. If membership is going to be voluntary, secession has to be just as legal as joining.
O'Brian ignoring all orders and destroying the Research was wrong no matter how you look at it. It was just extremly wrong. And this is absolutely not about Bashir having 'not enough Authority to decide', that's nonsense. This was the Chance to have a change the situation - its the Paranoia from 'Pen Pals' of TNG that it could make everything worse 'in theory'. There's also certain chances how a Slave Race will react in that situation, but well, whatever. Funny enough, Stargate actually explores this, unlike Star Trek. As they do with a lot, that Star Trek can't...
The runabout at a minimum needed only one person to operate it, therefore it probably had a lot of automation and the space craft to a certain extent could repair itself. In all likelihood it was a power drain, and the craft was not damaged, the runabout regenerated the power cells, much like how an alternator powers back up the battery of a car.
"So the ship's damaged and they crash land." "Won't it be really difficult to get off the planet again?" "No super easy, barely and inconvenience. They'll just literally never mention the damage ever again." "Wow, wow, wow. Wow. Okay, that might as well happen."
I'd add that Bashir had, at various times, shown not only his great brilliance but also a decided tendency towards arrogance. He tended to ignore others' contributions and consider himself the be-all and end-all of any question that even vaguely impinged on the biological. Generally, he did seem to recognize this tendency and I think he did try to limit it, but this is hardly the only time it comes up that he decides to solve a problem unilaterally rather than call on the resources of Starfleet.
Why is Julien trying to help the Jem'Hadar? Simply because he is a doctor and his first duty is to help the sick and people in need. So there is no question about his motives. Even during the hight of the Dominion war he is developing a cure for Odo and for the changelings. That should answer the question. I think there would have been more pros then cons if he would have been successful with his plan to develop a cure for the White addiction. The Founders would have lost their control over their entire army so the war wouldn't have been possible.
@@LoreReloaded Still Starfleet is not a military in the first place, therefore Julian sees himself as a doctor first. That's the very core of Trek. Starfleet and it's members are putting themselves in harm's way in order to help others in need. You can not describe Starfleet with our current definition of an armed force. It is more than that. The main principle of the Federation is to bring peace and prosperity to the galaxy and to live peacefull with the different beeings in it. Therefore Starfleet and it's members are ambassadors and peaceful explorers and not Soldiers, not primarily. If the Federation should be at war than Starfleet and it's members would have to defend it by all means. Still that doesn't make Starfleet to a military organisation. It's more like a well armed police force in that case.
There is the issue that someone else might try and free the Jem Hadar. Unless Bashir never mentions this event to Sisko. But the Romulans ... Are there in the background ( literally in the case of the Medical bay on the Enterprise D)
Your logic dooms the base rule of no slavery in starfleet, If you don't free the Jem'Hadar despite the risks then you have made precedent where you can just not free the borg or anyone else.
@@LoreReloaded Starfleet is poorly written and changes per episode but the overall canon suggests that this is it's stance. There is a reason I prefer the dominion.
I know you wont talk about the implications of this episode in depth but it is interesting as in rocks and souls and to the death the jem'hadar are loyal to the founders despite the white. And heck there is some descent with them later on like in one little ship it's clear(although it feels more like it's for plot conivenice) that alpha quadrant jem'hadar dont have the same experience as gamma quadrant jem'hadar and dont see things the same way.
This is an argument based on sentiment and not on fact, i admit it, but I believe Julian was right to believe the Jem Hadar could have bettered themselves if given the chance. In many ways the Jem Hadar showed they were more honorable and trustworthy than the Vorta. In Rocks and Shoals Sisko reluctantly has to kill a Jem Hadar who is determined to fulfill his oath to the Founders, even if he knows it will mean the death of him and his entire squad. Ikat'ika, the Jem Hadar who fought Worf and nearly killed him in the Dominion Prison Camp, refused to kill Worf after Worf would not admit defeat, stating "I can only kill this man, not defeat him. And that no longer holds my interest." During the joint Dominion-Federation attack on the rogue Jem Hadar in "To the Death" the Jem Hadar first states he will use the battle as a cover to kill Sisko, but after Sisko saves his life, allows the Starfleet Officers to leave despite the fact they were at war. The actions of the Jem Hadar show that had they been freed of the Vorta's manipulations and the Founder's influence, they could have perhaps been a violent yet honorable people, like the Klingons.
ya these things tricky. got rember not every one is federation. so cain't give out federation tenology. jem'hadar more like Klingons there way work with them but got know how do it. two people held gun point not way get going.
The Jem'hadar know first hand the ruthlessness of the Dominion. I sided with Bashir on this one, the freed Jem'hadar would have formed their own government, and it would be a pure military complex. But for some reason, I see the Jem'hadar as being more sensible and easier to get along with than the Klingon Empire.
I would assume that the runabouts energy was somehow drained in a manner similar to when a Nuclear reactor has its rods or in a internal combustion engine when enough gas doesn't get to the combustion chamber? perhaps in the time the Chief and dr was down there they system rebooted...?
Bashir helping unilaterally has far more cons I'd say one more Khan, the superior one, he need only to embrace his superior heritage. Makes me wonder if they knew about Khan or did Starfleet quash any and all info about him.
Wow! A series with subtle concepts that might make people think about said concepts. Nah, can't do that! Shove hamfisted narratives down the throats of the audience!
My theory is that Chief O'Brien is actually a very well-placed agent of Section 31. With this in mind, try to rewatch the episodes where O'Brien and Bashir were captured by the Jem Haddar (was the true purpose of their being there was for O'Brien to investigate reports of a Jem Haddar rebellion against the Founders?), the episode where O'Brien and Keiko were captured by the Cardassians ( was their capture really an elaborate plan for O'Brien to make contact with an asset of Section 31 among the Cardassian justice system, possibly the one who stood as his defense lawyer in the trial?). Also, note that O'Brien's nickname in the Mirror Universe is "Smiley" - as in George Smiley (?), he name of John Le Carre's master spy.
The more hypocritical argument I see here is why you don't hold Bashir traitorous in his actions but feel doctor Franklin on B5 was completely in the wrong when they both pretty much did the same thing trying to protect and enemy in a war?
@@LoreReloaded Both cases they are indulging in supporting the enemy to maintain their Hippocratic oath. Franklin is told the data will be used to make bioweapons so he doesn't give the info. Bashir wanting to cure the white not only supports a war enemy but it also breaks the prime directive doing so. Then he ORDERS another officer to assist him in it. Even O'brian questions even if it's the 'right' thing to do why does it need to be done right that moment while they are under direst. This is still a hostage situation for them. Bashir's reasoning is almost Stockholm syndrome.
@@NixonRules963 I think they also observe it for warp capable species they haven't met before. Or warp capable but vastly technologically inferior species like the Kazon.
@@darwinxavier3516 During the Dominion War the Federation was quite flexible with the Prime Directive. In Insurrection Starfleet admits the Evora into the Federation even though the Evora had only been warp capable for 1-2 years.
"Create your own channel" hahaha Preach hate trolls who just comment for the sake of criticising and adding nothing constructive/intresting. Just shows they have no imagination themselves in my opinion. Bashir is very chatty with all. Always talking in situations, when he should just shut his trap. In the end he was right to try and help the Jem'hadar, but you can understand Chief's resistance.
Morally Julian was in the right as you could argue that as a doctor, whose main priority is to heal the sick, and a starfleet officer helping the Jem'hadar first free his people from the white was the right move. As a man of medicine he would have studied and seen the dangers of drug dependency and would want nothing more than to help a species who'se genetically inbuilt dependency was being used to facilitate mass murder on a galactic scale for a species who, despite being their gods, care very little about the Jem'Hadar. As a Human Julian probably also knew a bit about history and knew how (in the star trek universe) Humanity used to control its 21st century millitary with drugs, yet that same humanity went on to eliminate hunger and poverty within a century and then went on to build a coalaition which would grow into the federation (so he could probably see the potential of what the Jem'hadar could become if they were just set free). Also, as we later leran that Julian is a genetically enhanced person, you could also argue that he sees himself in the Jem'Hadar first - or at least what society would view him as (a genetically enhanced super soldier), and that by helping this first cure the Jem'hadar he could help prove that not all genetically modified / designed peoples are warlords like khan. Julian is a man of hope who sees the good in what his work could do, but because of that he can't see the drawbacks. Miles, although morally in the wrong, was tactically in the right. Unlike Julian he's had more experience of the galaxy and as such has seen the worst of it (the border conflicts with Cardassia, the massacre at Setllic 3, the Borg incursion and the aftermath of Wolf 359), so he doesn't view this in the same light as Julian... he sees what can go wrong. Sure the Jem'hadar first might have thrown away his allegience to the founders, but whose to say that the others hold the same view? what would happen if a cure is found but the free jem'hadar just return to the founders and continue to serve the dominion? In that situation all the cure would have done have been to take one potential tactical advantage from the federation against the dominion (the exploitation of the white dependancy) and replaced a slave army with a religiously fanatical army (unquestioning loyalty to the founders who gave the dominion their freedom once they had proven their devotion). But, in addition to that, the Jem'hadar were also willing to kill the two of them until julian revealed himself to be a doctor - it wasn't compassion from teh free jem'hadar which saved them, it was their observation that julian could be helpful to their cause. Miles could have made his final call based on that interaction alone as just becasue the free jem'hadar might turn against the dominion doesn't mean that they would align themselves with the federation, and although the free Jem'hadar could potentially become a free and enlightened civilisation how long would that take? how many people would die before hand as all the Jem'hadar know is how to fight and kill, so instead of laying the foundations of a civilisation they would likley go out into the cosmos and conquer weaker species to do the tasks which they cannot do. Would one of those worlds be Bajor where Miles family are? Historically it took the barbaric 21st century humans just 1 century to go from drug controlled soldiers with courts where the deffendents were guilty untill proven innocent (with all that cowbell) to the more peacfull humans for the NX-01 era.... but between those two time periods humanity had to go through the crucible which was World War III - a war confined to one pre-warp world... what would the crucible for the Jem'hadar be with their warp capable ships? I remember watching this episode and thinking how much i agreed with julian, but in the long run there were to many "what if's" and not enough certainty.
I’m a Discovery fan. I love this episode. I don’t feel worthless. That being said...I find I side with Miles on this one. I get what Bashir is trying to do and admire his efforts. And maybe had Bashir been successful it would’ve benefited the alpha quadrant. But all the info they had pointed to the Jehadar being violent and out of control
1) Prime directive didn't apply 2) Even if they were at war with the Dominion, doctors provide aid 3) Chief O'Brien is showing his soldiering tendencies here from the 'Cardasian war'. Very in character but also should be expecting to face a court martial.
O'Brian ignoring all orders and destroying the Research was wrong no matter how you look at it. It was just extremly wrong. And this is absolutely not about Bashir having 'not enough Authority to decide', that's nonsense. This was the Chance to have a change the situation - its the Paranoia from 'Pen Pals' of TNG that it could make everything worse 'in theory'. There's also certain chances how a Slave Race will react in that situation, but well, whatever. Funny enough, Stargate actually explores this, unlike Star Trek. As they do with a lot, that Star Trek can't...
O’Brien is ordered by Bashir . . . good thing this is the one episode where they remind us that he’s an NCO. In any other episode O’Brien would laugh him off.
Nope O'Brien always respects the chain of command. You can see that in the episode where Nog is promoted to Ensign and he salutes him, even though it is "only" a battlefield promotion.
O'Brian is a 20th century every man, he has bigotries, homophobia, rather stereo typical early 20th century male attitudes. He is a Non Commissioned Officer or Non Com, and has been throughout him being a character. It is only waco moles that call him an Officer. Julian responded as the enlightened human in response to curing the Jem'Hadar addiction as well as a doctor, although the Hippocratic Oath has changed and I would expect it to have changed by the time in this episode. If he had taken the Jem'Hadar to Starfleet medical they would have been used as either lab rats or plague carriers as exemplified by what they did to Odo. I always thought that by the end of the series he would come up with the cure though and it did feel like a thread they just dropped, on among many.
I am not sure how big threat the Jem'hadar would without there masters. I mean without question the Vorta are better tactics officers and commanders then Jem Hadar. If the Jem hadar had gain independence at worst be another Kligion Empire and set timer.
The joke in the beginning of the episode is that Miles was going to say why couldn't she be more like Julian - not more like a man. He caught himself and added that at the last second, then played it off. O'Brien loves Bashir but will never admit it.
Lore Reloaded it makes sense - Miles was just agreeing with a point that Julian had made, so naturally he was going to wonder why she couldn’t be more like him. He always stops short of telling Julian how much he likes him - think about the time where Julian gets blitzed because the Valedictorian ignored him - Miles almost admits to loving him (as a friend)
Plot twist - Chief O'brien is a changling, this is the same changling that then becomes Bashir,. Stopping the Jem'hadar from having a cure proves he was a spy with a small goal but drastic outcome.
Its a lot simpler than that. The Free Jem'Hadar wouldn't be a civilization, they would be a plague. They are bred and engineered for war and only war. It is all they know, it is all they want and it is all they can be. Without the shackles built into their biology by the Founders, they will just spread out of control and drown the galaxy in blood, because that is what they were made to do
A lot more, "Khans?" Julian was much too much the idealist to be a Star Fleet doctor. In the STO he does leave Star Fleet even if he returns for a short time, in my opinion, because he is such an idealist. He helped cure a plague of the Dominion on a non-warp capable world, which was applauded but helping the Jem'Hadar you see as a, "Khan?" Very confusing views on this one from a channel I usually tend to agree with.
Ah, you didn't consider the Hippocratic Oath that Dr. Bashir no doubt took. He is also a very kind individual. Garak commented that Dr. Bashir was the only Starfleet officer that believed the Starfleet mission and actually followed it. (May be wrong on the exact wording of what Garak said. Hope I got the idea right.) To tell a doctor to let someone die is a no-go for the doctor. Dr. Bashir did save Garak at the risk of his own life to confront Enabrin Tain at his house. Also, different universe, in the Stargate Legacy books there was an opportunity to kill all the wraith. Um, genocide anyone? Don't worry the wraith are okay. I know lore reloaded concerns tactical stuff but the moral implications are worth exploring. (Another video maybe?) I am ex-military so I see the tactical side of things. Still, moral injury is a part of war. To know that you killed another being is (another universe, earth final conflict) "Soul destroying". To get around this, some make the "enemy" an other, less than human, so to speak. To see the worth in all, which I guessing Dr. Bashir does, makes all life precious. Just my two cents.
You already have an episode towards the end where Bashir states outright that he prefers O'Brien before Dax. So yea.. A lot of insinuation between the two. I always assumed Bashir would prefer guys, but i guess that would've been before its time even för ST. And then we have the fact that all gay characters only show up in the "evil/opposite" universe. Oo
I actually agree with O'Brien on this episode as well. The potential threat was too great to risk it's coming to pass. That's not a decision that a Junior Officer, with no diplomatic, or hard military strategy/forecasting training, and a Non-Com who was effectively a Grunt retrained as a combat engineer (despite how long he's been in service) should be put in a position to make. In a situation like Voyager, I could understand that, as you don't have the luxury of "passing the buck" to a superior officer there, but the potential political, societal, and military ramifications were simply too great in this situation for them.
The right thing to do is to help Jem'hadar. The tactical thing to do is not to. A doctor has a duty to those he is treated. Also as a military officer he has a duty to the body in which he swore loyalty. So he is both right and wrong. Miles though again he is a military soldier and he has to follow his commanding officers orders. If they do not conflict with other orders or are illegal order he is violation of his duty. His isn't to question his is to do. Morally right or wrong this is a very gray area morality wise. Both made piss poor decisions. Julian should have taken them back as refugees and looking for a cure for them. The reason why it would have served Star Fleet and the federation to have that research that could help sway the Jem'hadar to siding with them. He made a really bad tactical decision.
Bashir probably thought that the Jem'hadar would not allow them to go to Starfleet medical because they were captives. I think he is right about that. Bashir was not wrong to try to free them of the drug and O'brian was understandable to pull Bashir, his commanding officer, away from the situation for his own good. But if Bashir was able to replicate the independence from the drug that the first had, it would have changed the dynamics of the Dominion. Who know how that would have played out.
Yes, Bashir should have taken them back. It would have provided such a unique opportunity to allow them to be free fro the white and see what would happen. O'Brian should have at least been willing to do that after seeing how bad off they were and how they could be able to help the Jem'hadar.
Remember when o'Brien had his wife get body shifted back to an 8[something whatever age it was] year old again in the enterprise? He's had to deal with keiko and weird stuff.
I'm fairly new to Star Trek UA-cam, so coming across this channel I was kind of excited for a bit, but like, that entire Keiko bit at the beginning was just... idk. "The Bajorian language now includes Keiko to mean nag" is such a fucking hack joke. Also a pretty hack joke is that section of analysis with "Discovery fans would get triggered by good TV just cause there's jokes about gay people." Like, you got any jokes about the mother in law? Got a good zinger about airline food? It feels derivative. If I want to hear those jokes I can look in like half of all Netflix comedy specials And then it just passes, without it really further tying into your video's point. And the point is quite interesting. I think it is pretty important to discuss Julian's decision, the ethics of it. I think it's important to ask whether there was virtue in him acting on his own without trying to contact Starfleet and only rely on his own judgement. You present good analysis, although not really much of it. Maybe instead of doing a hacky nag joke, you could have spent more time exploring the nuances of Julain and O'Brien's characters or the shown nature of the Jem Hadar. I have granted only seen a few videos of yours, but you seem to have the same problems of like, Steve Shives's Star Trek Videos- too ready to go on tangents unrelated to the video's point, that are not entertaining, and seem rather self-impressed.
@@aronpuma5962 I really enjoy what I do, to a large degree. So I appreciate that. I would earnestly suggest taking a look at Trekyards (though sometimes they can be a bit like what I do).. Also you really might enjoy Ketwolski but he doesn't do the same type of analysis.
On one hand, senior staff doing field work seems to make sense....it seems altruistic. However, the idea that they would go on a survey mission and leave their staff to handle issues is a bit unorthodox. These are not "junior" officers in rank, albiet O'Brien is a strange case (he has a Non commissioned Officer grade but his rank as a chief engineer of a space station on the frontier), so their proper position is at the top of the echelon. That said, Star Fleet HAS ALWAYS HAD THAT PROBLEM!!! Kirk, Spock and McCoy beaming down into "who knows what?!?" is very much a violation of usual protocol...even the M-5 Multritronic Unit knew that. The Captain is the titular head of the vessel who's functions on shore are usually diplomatic. Dr. McCoy, too, violates this in the Tholian Web when he is thrown shade by Spock for not supervising his staff while attending Kirk's service. Riker, too, understood the true reasoning when he, based on a backstory he and Picard shared where he was said to have prevented the Captain of the USS Hood from beaming down (that may not have been the Hood, but a previous ship posting. Nonetheless) O'Brien and Bashir should have been the FIRST... to analyze the results from a survey team when it returned with specimens...not, actually be the survery team. Just saying it seems very poor protocol. Well...except form "plot armor."
Even the worst episode of DS9 (and boy are there some stinkers in the first season.. and okay female quark episode) is better then anything in Discovery. Discovery is meh at best. Also, calling O'Brien an officer... I mean yeah and no. I understand it's a complicated issue, and he is kinda an officer on DS9, I still wouldn't call him that.
O’Brien is moaning about his wife and you ask why this survey mission required the Chief of Operations!? He wanted some alone time with Bashir ;-) Don’t forget that one time O’Brien took his wife on a runabout and he got kidnapped, tortured, put on trial and sentenced to death. I know it was still preferable to being with Keiko, but still...
Would the Jem Hadar trust Starfleet enough to cooperate if Bashir did encourage them to seek help? Remember that for all they knew they could be trading one master for another.
I think the Jem'Hadar assume they can kill pretty much anyone that betrays them, even if it takes hundreds of years. Plus, the Dominion (Vorta & Jems) have certain assumptions about how Starfleet will operate.
Phew. I feel like you watched only this series and you watched only once and you didn't watch it in order. Also, starting off your video by telling us to shut up was supposed to be cute, but it just made you seem really butthurt about getting called out for profiting on something you screwed up. There are people that have seen every component of every series, fan fiction, book about 50 times each. This is Star Trek dude -- not Dora the explorer. Have some respect to who you're getting corrected by. There are about 3 dozen things you missed with just about every statement you made. First and last visit to this channel.
The Chief has had some really bad experiences in combat and is a decorated non-com. I'd follow his lead in almost all combat scenarios. Bashir is a good soul and if they had any backup, I'd follow his lead. I'd rather live, escape and come back to help the Jemmies if they survived their withdrawal.
I always found it odd how the federation officer is basically saying that they shouldn't free slaves, as surely it goes against the federation and using the same broken logic of the prime directive where the arguement is well what if it goes wrong and that slim chance of it going wrong justifies not doing it. What if they had freed them? It would have atleast disrupted the dominion, if not completely crippled them and given freedom to a warrior race who would know that it was the federation who freed them (plus if they were going to fight anyone it would probaly be the klingons as they are the other warrior race and would be viewed as the better challenge), yes there is a chance that it would make the dominion more hostile towards the federation but at this point war was almost inevitable anyway so why not try to gain an advantage.
@@LoreReloaded Dude, I'm not sure that's how it comes off. It's every video as of late. Just saying. Yeah, I noticed the other comment. I never really got their relationship. She was frequently written as fairly severe in my opinion. Julian and Miles had a bromance to last the ages.
@@LoreReloaded Ugh. Don't ask me to do work. This is supposed to be fun and entertaining. I'm just saying I notice that you tend to include a little salt in many recent videos. I'm not your archivist nor biographer. Taste is subjective. You can say whatever you want. I'm saying that I noticed.
At least Bashir was able to save head lubricator for turbolift six Ensign Jim Hadar from his awful carpel tunnel he received from constantly squeezing the trigger to his lube gun. It's the small miracles that really show life is worth living.
Dialogue and episodes like this is WHAT made the old 90s and 80s shows as good as they are.. Something these "great and woke" modern shows for the most part lack. Even most the writing and plots in most the new stuff sucks
To say you shouldn’t free them because you don’t know what would happen ? I disagree with that completely so. The enemy of your enemy is your friend first. Causing a jem hadar insurrection would weaken the dominion. As well and this is a little biblical but would you in your last days want to say you didn’t always try and do good because conscience was inconvenient at the time, because helping free slaves regardless of their creation could be dangerous. Sure you don’t know what they may do but they deserve the right to try and live free. They were made killers but they can make themselves better. They deserve to try. Humans can be awful but we’re allowed to try and be better and maybe one day we will be. Yet again miles shows why humans aren’t as good as they claim. If you won’t do the good thing the right thing because you’re afraid of the unknown how can you claim to better than anyone. As someone said recently after having saved some kids in a flipped over car. “ every good thing that’s happened in my life has been from helping someone else. “ I just think it’s sad, they were made as soldiers and killers but they could have been free and able to be much more maybe even figure out how to thrive somehow. If not at least they could have lived and died free which every sentient creature should have the chance to experience.
Just started noticing how many of your vids have you excusing some aspect of your video but then you negate the excuse by saying shut up or insulting those with a critique or counter opinion.
It’s like the Jaffa in Stargate with their engineered dependence on Goa’uld symbiotes - it took more than one person to synthesise an alternative AND it took one guy - Teal’c - going rogue from serving the Goa’uld to start a rebellion
I was gonna say that.
Correction on Stargate Lore:
1. The Jaffa Tretonin substitute you are referring to was discovered by SG-1, ironically the alternative is made from crushed Goa'uld symbiotes, so in essence the slaves have become cannibals in order to to live, they have begun eating their former masters :P Poetic justice for such a nasty alien species, but still it wasn't perfect.
2. Teal'c was not the 1st person to rebel, in Stargate Season SG1 9 and 10 we learn that other Jaffa rebellions have been happening throughout history. What Teal'c did was help begin collecting the many disparate groups of rebels with Tauri/human alliance that eventually won them their freedom, along with a nice sized swath of real estate before the Ori Crusade .
Stargate Lore should be explored at some point, I know @Lore Reloaded you have considered it at points, but it's a large undertaking and you really have to get into the concept of Stargate versus Star Trek mentality. At first, Stargate Command is first and foremost a military operation, exploration is only happening for the benefit of Earth's defenses, whether that is ethical or not is kind of the general theme of some episodes like "Shades of Grey" or "The Other Side". They later adopted a Star Trek-esque mentality with Atlantis and later season of Stargate, once humans established ourselves as a formidable species in the galaxy, though our star fleet was puny in comparison. Later series, into the Destiny era, Stargate Universe, was definitely Star Trek inspired if not a full on Voyager., there was almost little to no comedy left. By that point, humanity had acquired a sizable "battle capable" fleet of warships, had bases in two galaxies, and operated as the superpower in the milky way galaxy. At that point, sure going down Star Trek route seems fine.
@@time391 O'Brian ignoring all orders and destroying the Research was wrong no matter how you look at it. It was just extremly wrong.
And this is absolutely not about Bashir having 'not enough Authority to decide', that's nonsense.
This was the Chance to have a change the situation - its the Paranoia from 'Pen Pals' of TNG that it could make everything worse 'in theory'. There's also certain chances how a Slave Race will react in that situation, but well, whatever.
Funny enough, Stargate actually explores this, unlike Star Trek. As they do with a lot, that Star Trek can't...
@@bigyubyub O'Brian ignoring all orders and destroying the Research was wrong no matter how you look at it. It was just extremly wrong.
And this is absolutely not about Bashir having 'not enough Authority to decide', that's nonsense.
This was the Chance to have a change the situation - its the Paranoia from 'Pen Pals' of TNG that it could make everything worse 'in theory'. There's also certain chances how a Slave Race will react in that situation, but well, whatever.
Funny enough, Stargate actually explores this, unlike Star Trek. As they do with a lot, that Star Trek can't...
@@slevinchannel7589 Not sure if you are responding to me or Master Yubyub. I think you meant the latter as I was addressing a point made in connection with Stargate Lore. In terms of military Sci-Fi, Stargate franchise handles Prime Directive issues with a little more nuance, it's there and not absolute, like Tollan practice zero tolerance or Nox fave "inaction"/"indirect action" (they are smart enough to do things without actually doing it for you), while Asgard favor "preemptive limited" action, when dealing with lesser advanced species.
The actors who played Miles and Keiko actually (off camera) hated each other. It did add to the tension between the two on camera :)
which is why they were so good on camera lol
Good chemistry can come bad blood
Apparently, in addition to sending an engineer to do a bio survey, you send your senior doctor. Does DS9 have no junior science officers? Is Dax on vacation?
Plasmacore V I know! Where the red(Yellow)shirts at?
She is off murdering a Klingon for culture. Though Dax being stabbed to death by a Jem Hadar going through cold turkey is funny
That’s a big problem with DS9. All the other shows have involved long range ships that must, to a greater or lesser extent, rely on the skills of their small crews in isolation, so they have to be generalists. When this show was a rugged outpost you could have done the same, but the strategic and commercial value of the wormhole gradually saw more and more assets committed to the Bajoran sector. Then it became a story of diplomacy and international relations, and especially of military conflict on a massive scale, a total war that could strain the resources of a civilization that controlled thousands of planets.
But the production team had neither the resources nor the desire for a cast of thousands, so they kept sending the same few characters on jobs for which they were not specialized.
@@rurrjh damn... yeah finally accidentally while goin through withdrawals and not even meaning too...
It sounds like a Robot Chicken skit..
As I recall, Dax is also technically second in command on DS9; at least in regards to Starfleet matters. It makes sense why she wouldn't be sent on a mission of low importance. Bashier being the CMO on a space station, despite being a simple Lieutenant at the time did seem stranger though. Typically, that role is given to a Lt. Commander, or in Dr. Crusher's case, a Commander.
Bashir & O'Brien should have taken another blood sample from the 1st. It would of taken only a second. Then Bashir could of continued his research at DS9. There he would be able to get help not only from the Federations, but almost every major power in the Alpha & Beta quadrants. Breaking the Founders' control over the Jem'hedar could severely weaken the Dominion. We already know that the first is far from the only rebel Jem'hedar. Section 31 just needs to find these rebels & make a deal with them.
If there is one group of people you want fighting your wars its a bunch of explorers and scientists who hardly ever train for warfare.
This episode is one of those gray one in that both Julian and Miles were right with the defining factor being that Miles could see the bigger picture while Julian was too focused on finding a cure which is perfectly fine but as stated he should have done so using the full knowledge and experience of Starfleet Medical.
Yes Julian went to DS9 to work on frontier Medicine, but he'd already had the big moment of curing a plague when he helped the Teplans cure the Blight which was the original name for it before it was changed to the Quickening which was the name of the episode.
Julian was in the right MORALLY but in the wrong STRATEGICALLY. In my opinion.
He's as you put it MORE then once. An its probably also been on record too I imagine. If hed done it in THIS age... Bashir woulda been kicked out and lost his commission.. and Medical License a LONG time ago
Remember Julian also saved the Andorian from Extinction as well, while the federation turn their back on one of the Federation's founder species
@@DarthMalgusSith_Lord When was that?
(Not being antagonistic, just I've very recently watched DS9 and I don't recall that)
@@malusignatius it's in the novel, Julian saw the population of Andorian declining due to their mating problem and the federation do nothing to save the founding species and thus the Andorian angrily withdrew their membership from the Federation, Julian later save the species with a cure from extinction and the Federation declared him a criminal because he save the Andorian without the Federation approval, this is shown the cruel side of the Federation
@@DarthMalgusSith_Lord Cheers.
I agree on almost every point. It's a good idea to bring a tech guy along when you're dealing with equipment as over-complicated and finicky as federation tech and it's not known if the bio guy is capable of maintaining and repairing it.
This left out a lot of context for this episode...ya know the fact that jem'hadar are genetically designed and predisposed to be aggressive, xenophobic and violent towards anything that isn't a founder and the first was essentially a genetic aberration that didn't require the white to survive, safe to assume his "free thought" was also an aberration.
It's clear through the course of the episode that his "men" didn't really agree with or understand his actions or thinking...they kind of just followed and obeyed him because they respected his position as first and they're kinda bred to instinctively be obedient and follow orders etc...no doubt if there was a founder changeling around they would have immediately killed the first if ordered to.
When we take this episode and compare it with the episode where they find a jem'hadar baby who grows to full maturity in days if not hours we learn just how dangerous and uncontrollable they truly are, we're talking about an "unnatural" mass produced organic sentient weapon with inherited genetic memories and combat skills who's sole desire and instinct seems to be to fight and kill anything and everything that isn't them or a founder...and the vorta clearly states "the founders ability to control the jem'hadar might have been slightly exaggerated" to which someone says "of course or you wouldn't need the "white"...knowing this it's obvious the "first" wasn't just a physical anomaly, it's clear his mental and emotional "inclinations" deviated from the standard norm as well...
This is not a bunch of small docile, properly socialised, domesticated and harmless lap dogs you can simply let off their leash without any danger or consequences...they're more like a pack of rabid abused and neglected pitbulls who've only ever known violence and cruelty...the naive bleeding hearted doctor might have wanted to offer the federations hand in friendship and display compassion but they'd only get bitten or worse mauled for their trouble.
The entire series has discussed this actually.
Exactly!
@@LoreReloaded O'Brian ignoring all orders and destroying the Research was wrong no matter how you look at it. It was just extremly wrong.
And this is absolutely not about Bashir having 'not enough Authority to decide', that's nonsense.
This was the Chance to have a change the situation - its the Paranoia from 'Pen Pals' of TNG that it could make everything worse 'in theory'. There's also certain chances how a Slave Race will react in that situation, but well, whatever.
Funny enough, Stargate actually explores this, unlike Star Trek. As they do with a lot, that Star Trek can't...
This was easily one of the most thought provoking and interesting episodes in the entirety of Star Trek, absolutely loved it.
I don't think morally you can try to game out consequences when rendering medical aid. We expect doctors to provide aid to all regardless of the circumstance. We don't know the future but we do know we have a group of people who are being tortured by their dependence on this substance. There is a saying that you attend to the present that let the future manage itself.
It has to start with one man.
Great take on this Lore Reloaded but i would have added a well known fact. O'Brian yes was a chief engineer but he was also a very experienced infantry soldier. On many occasions in TNG and DS9 he brought up past stories of his years in battle fronts. So even though Bashir had good intentions his lack of field experience lead him down the wrong path. Thankfully which in my opinion why O'Brian was written into this, his experience taught him what Bashir was doing was a very bad idea.
I havent seen a fleet around any of the federation star bases except for during war time. Heck they clearly didnt have one around earth since it got attacked directly. Now the stations do hold their own if ds9 is any kind of example. Just upgraded it did destroy 40 plus ships. We really need more info on star fleets space station specs.
The doctor in this episode is typical Starfleet he believes he can save everyone he believes if we all work together we can do it
One way for Jem hadar to integrate into the Federation - they can become a race of team sports athletes, assuming they can adapt to non injury rules. In the seedier places of the Federation, they'd be mma athletes. Klingons would probably love going into the ring with them.
LOL, that makes me imagine what that the Volkanoski-Ortega title fight would've been like if they'd been a Jem'Hadar and a Klingon, respectively.
"Brian, honor has been satisfied. Stay down!"
fuck it I'm watching this episode again
I didn't think of the idea that for every "First", there'd be a Khan, so that in itself is an excellent argument against Julian saving them from their addiction. It would have been nice to see the Jem'hadar go to Starfleet medical and get treated there, but I wouldn't buy it if they agreed to that. These Jem'hadar don't trust their own people, why trust anyone from Starfleet?
I have a question for you, Mr Lore Meister.
In the TNG episode Season 2, Episode 7, "Unnatural Selection", the Enterprise crew visit a research station where they are literally creating genetically engineered children. The children are built to be perfect and "the next step in humanity".
Yet by the time of DS9, we learn that genetically enhancing someone is illegal, and Bashir's parents are sent to prison. Similarly, we learn that Dr Soong in Enterprise has created genetically engineered people and they are essentially illegal at this time too.
Can you explain why the scientists in the TNG episode aren't all sent to prison and the created children vaporised on the spot?
The colony where the genetically engineered children were being created had seceded from the Federation, for reason of that very law, though clearly they still had a good relationship, since when they sent out a request for assistance the Enterprise was sent, and the Enterprise crew were treated as honoured guests. Not being part of the Federation, Federation law did not apply.
@@sundoga4961 Because the way to get around laws the Federation has to prevent another Khan is to secede, which will give you friendly relations rather than a couple of angry heavy cruisers parked above your world saying "no, on all counts".
@@mjbull5156 Yes. The Federation claims to be, and actually walks the walk on this, a voluntary association of species and worlds. If membership is going to be voluntary, secession has to be just as legal as joining.
@@sundoga4961 its just a mistake, look at the marque, they dont reconise succession
O'Brian ignoring all orders and destroying the Research was wrong no matter how you look at it. It was just extremly wrong.
And this is absolutely not about Bashir having 'not enough Authority to decide', that's nonsense.
This was the Chance to have a change the situation - its the Paranoia from 'Pen Pals' of TNG that it could make everything worse 'in theory'. There's also certain chances how a Slave Race will react in that situation, but well, whatever.
Funny enough, Stargate actually explores this, unlike Star Trek. As they do with a lot, that Star Trek can't...
The runabout at a minimum needed only one person to operate it, therefore it probably had a lot of automation and the space craft to a certain extent could repair itself. In all likelihood it was a power drain, and the craft was not damaged, the runabout regenerated the power cells, much like how an alternator powers back up the battery of a car.
"So the ship's damaged and they crash land."
"Won't it be really difficult to get off the planet again?"
"No super easy, barely and inconvenience. They'll just literally never mention the damage ever again."
"Wow, wow, wow. Wow. Okay, that might as well happen."
A fellow Pitch Meeting fan!
I'd add that Bashir had, at various times, shown not only his great brilliance but also a decided tendency towards arrogance. He tended to ignore others' contributions and consider himself the be-all and end-all of any question that even vaguely impinged on the biological. Generally, he did seem to recognize this tendency and I think he did try to limit it, but this is hardly the only time it comes up that he decides to solve a problem unilaterally rather than call on the resources of Starfleet.
The runabout took off at the end because Miles fixed it. He's not going to try to escape if he has no ship to escape with.
Wow! Keko becomes the 24th century KAREN!!!! lol
Appropriately, that bitchy XO cadet from "Valiant" is named Karen.
@1:57 - Oooh, sick burn. :-)
Why is Julien trying to help the Jem'Hadar? Simply because he is a doctor and his first duty is to help the sick and people in need. So there is no question about his motives. Even during the hight of the Dominion war he is developing a cure for Odo and for the changelings. That should answer the question. I think there would have been more pros then cons if he would have been successful with his plan to develop a cure for the White addiction. The Founders would have lost their control over their entire army so the war wouldn't have been possible.
Military doctors are put in interesting circumstances
@@LoreReloaded Still Starfleet is not a military in the first place, therefore Julian sees himself as a doctor first. That's the very core of Trek. Starfleet and it's members are putting themselves in harm's way in order to help others in need. You can not describe Starfleet with our current definition of an armed force. It is more than that. The main principle of the Federation is to bring peace and prosperity to the galaxy and to live peacefull with the different beeings in it. Therefore Starfleet and it's members are ambassadors and peaceful explorers and not Soldiers, not primarily. If the Federation should be at war than Starfleet and it's members would have to defend it by all means. Still that doesn't make Starfleet to a military organisation. It's more like a well armed police force in that case.
There is the issue that someone else might try and free the Jem Hadar. Unless Bashir never mentions this event to Sisko. But the Romulans ... Are there in the background ( literally in the case of the Medical bay on the Enterprise D)
Your logic dooms the base rule of no slavery in starfleet, If you don't free the Jem'Hadar despite the risks then you have made precedent where you can just not free the borg or anyone else.
Something starfleet is known for
@@LoreReloaded Starfleet is poorly written and changes per episode but the overall canon suggests that this is it's stance.
There is a reason I prefer the dominion.
O'Brien was a non commissioned officer, a chief petty officer. Unless we're in early TNG, if that's the case he's a lieutenant... Wirters...
O'Brien got demoted, why? Because O'Brien must suffer.
@@fermitupoupon1754 I don't know why, I've asked LR to do a video on it and the comment got his attention. So maybe we'll get a video on it.
Love the bajoran language lesson
Bashir liked to skirt the line of Treason
I know you wont talk about the implications of this episode in depth but it is interesting as in rocks and souls and to the death the jem'hadar are loyal to the founders despite the white. And heck there is some descent with them later on like in one little ship it's clear(although it feels more like it's for plot conivenice) that alpha quadrant jem'hadar dont have the same experience as gamma quadrant jem'hadar and dont see things the same way.
This is an argument based on sentiment and not on fact, i admit it, but I believe Julian was right to believe the Jem Hadar could have bettered themselves if given the chance. In many ways the Jem Hadar showed they were more honorable and trustworthy than the Vorta.
In Rocks and Shoals Sisko reluctantly has to kill a Jem Hadar who is determined to fulfill his oath to the Founders, even if he knows it will mean the death of him and his entire squad. Ikat'ika, the Jem Hadar who fought Worf and nearly killed him in the Dominion Prison Camp, refused to kill Worf after Worf would not admit defeat, stating "I can only kill this man, not defeat him. And that no longer holds my interest." During the joint Dominion-Federation attack on the rogue Jem Hadar in "To the Death" the Jem Hadar first states he will use the battle as a cover to kill Sisko, but after Sisko saves his life, allows the Starfleet Officers to leave despite the fact they were at war.
The actions of the Jem Hadar show that had they been freed of the Vorta's manipulations and the Founder's influence, they could have perhaps been a violent yet honorable people, like the Klingons.
“ If you think you can do a better job get your own channel “
Isn’t... That exactly what you did with Sci-Fi? ಠ_ಠ
I'm gonna start my own channel with black jack and hookers
I can't remember was the Dr a founder at this point?
Nope that is happening in season 5
ya these things tricky. got rember not every one is federation. so cain't give out federation tenology. jem'hadar more like Klingons there way work with them but got know how do it. two people held gun point not way get going.
The Jem'hadar know first hand the ruthlessness of the Dominion. I sided with Bashir on this one, the freed Jem'hadar would have formed their own government, and it would be a pure military complex. But for some reason, I see the Jem'hadar as being more sensible and easier to get along with than the Klingon Empire.
I would assume that the runabouts energy was somehow drained in a manner similar to when a Nuclear reactor has its rods or in a internal combustion engine when enough gas doesn't get to the combustion chamber? perhaps in the time the Chief and dr was down there they system rebooted...?
does it not mention that Julian Bashir already (secretly) mended the craft as best he could? thought that's what happened
“Learn from LaForge”?
I like your videos, but I wish they came without that annoying music in the background
Even reducing the volume would help.
Bashir helping unilaterally has far more cons
I'd say one more Khan, the superior one, he need only to embrace his superior heritage.
Makes me wonder if they knew about Khan or did Starfleet quash any and all info about him.
I was wondering if you ever watched Razorfists Depths of DS9 series?
Havent yet
Keiko see you next Tuesday
Wow! A series with subtle concepts that might make people think about said concepts. Nah, can't do that! Shove hamfisted narratives down the throats of the audience!
Haha. No.
DS9 is trash and gets a lot wrong.
About basically everything.
This was before the doctor was replaced?
My theory is that Chief O'Brien is actually a very well-placed agent of Section 31. With this in mind, try to rewatch the episodes where O'Brien and Bashir were captured by the Jem Haddar (was the true purpose of their being there was for O'Brien to investigate reports of a Jem Haddar rebellion against the Founders?), the episode where O'Brien and Keiko were captured by the Cardassians ( was their capture really an elaborate plan for O'Brien to make contact with an asset of Section 31 among the Cardassian justice system, possibly the one who stood as his defense lawyer in the trial?). Also, note that O'Brien's nickname in the Mirror Universe is "Smiley" - as in George Smiley (?), he name of John Le Carre's master spy.
The more hypocritical argument I see here is why you don't hold Bashir traitorous in his actions but feel doctor Franklin on B5 was completely in the wrong when they both pretty much did the same thing trying to protect and enemy in a war?
.... No they re so.. drastically different.
@@LoreReloaded Both cases they are indulging in supporting the enemy to maintain their Hippocratic oath. Franklin is told the data will be used to make bioweapons so he doesn't give the info. Bashir wanting to cure the white not only supports a war enemy but it also breaks the prime directive doing so. Then he ORDERS another officer to assist him in it. Even O'brian questions even if it's the 'right' thing to do why does it need to be done right that moment while they are under direst. This is still a hostage situation for them. Bashir's reasoning is almost Stockholm syndrome.
Enjoyed your insight!
Exceptional commentary.
By wanting to stay wasn't Bashir in violation of the Prime Directive?
The Jem Hadar are a warp capable species. The Prime Directive only applies to pre-warp species.
@@NixonRules963 I think they also observe it for warp capable species they haven't met before. Or warp capable but vastly technologically inferior species like the Kazon.
@@darwinxavier3516 During the Dominion War the Federation was quite flexible with the Prime Directive. In Insurrection Starfleet admits the Evora into the Federation even though the Evora had only been warp capable for 1-2 years.
"Create your own channel" hahaha Preach hate trolls who just comment for the sake of criticising and adding nothing constructive/intresting.
Just shows they have no imagination themselves in my opinion.
Bashir is very chatty with all. Always talking in situations, when he should just shut his trap. In the end he was right to try and help the Jem'hadar, but you can understand Chief's resistance.
Morally Julian was in the right as you could argue that as a doctor, whose main priority is to heal the sick, and a starfleet officer helping the Jem'hadar first free his people from the white was the right move. As a man of medicine he would have studied and seen the dangers of drug dependency and would want nothing more than to help a species who'se genetically inbuilt dependency was being used to facilitate mass murder on a galactic scale for a species who, despite being their gods, care very little about the Jem'Hadar. As a Human Julian probably also knew a bit about history and knew how (in the star trek universe) Humanity used to control its 21st century millitary with drugs, yet that same humanity went on to eliminate hunger and poverty within a century and then went on to build a coalaition which would grow into the federation (so he could probably see the potential of what the Jem'hadar could become if they were just set free). Also, as we later leran that Julian is a genetically enhanced person, you could also argue that he sees himself in the Jem'Hadar first - or at least what society would view him as (a genetically enhanced super soldier), and that by helping this first cure the Jem'hadar he could help prove that not all genetically modified / designed peoples are warlords like khan. Julian is a man of hope who sees the good in what his work could do, but because of that he can't see the drawbacks.
Miles, although morally in the wrong, was tactically in the right. Unlike Julian he's had more experience of the galaxy and as such has seen the worst of it (the border conflicts with Cardassia, the massacre at Setllic 3, the Borg incursion and the aftermath of Wolf 359), so he doesn't view this in the same light as Julian... he sees what can go wrong. Sure the Jem'hadar first might have thrown away his allegience to the founders, but whose to say that the others hold the same view? what would happen if a cure is found but the free jem'hadar just return to the founders and continue to serve the dominion? In that situation all the cure would have done have been to take one potential tactical advantage from the federation against the dominion (the exploitation of the white dependancy) and replaced a slave army with a religiously fanatical army (unquestioning loyalty to the founders who gave the dominion their freedom once they had proven their devotion). But, in addition to that, the Jem'hadar were also willing to kill the two of them until julian revealed himself to be a doctor - it wasn't compassion from teh free jem'hadar which saved them, it was their observation that julian could be helpful to their cause. Miles could have made his final call based on that interaction alone as just becasue the free jem'hadar might turn against the dominion doesn't mean that they would align themselves with the federation, and although the free Jem'hadar could potentially become a free and enlightened civilisation how long would that take? how many people would die before hand as all the Jem'hadar know is how to fight and kill, so instead of laying the foundations of a civilisation they would likley go out into the cosmos and conquer weaker species to do the tasks which they cannot do. Would one of those worlds be Bajor where Miles family are? Historically it took the barbaric 21st century humans just 1 century to go from drug controlled soldiers with courts where the deffendents were guilty untill proven innocent (with all that cowbell) to the more peacfull humans for the NX-01 era.... but between those two time periods humanity had to go through the crucible which was World War III - a war confined to one pre-warp world... what would the crucible for the Jem'hadar be with their warp capable ships?
I remember watching this episode and thinking how much i agreed with julian, but in the long run there were to many "what if's" and not enough certainty.
There were rumors of Bashir and Garak being gay
I’m a Discovery fan. I love this episode. I don’t feel worthless. That being said...I find I side with Miles on this one. I get what Bashir is trying to do and admire his efforts. And maybe had Bashir been successful it would’ve benefited the alpha quadrant. But all the info they had pointed to the Jehadar being violent and out of control
1) Prime directive didn't apply
2) Even if they were at war with the Dominion, doctors provide aid
3) Chief O'Brien is showing his soldiering tendencies here from the 'Cardasian war'. Very in character but also should be expecting to face a court martial.
O'Brian ignoring all orders and destroying the Research was wrong no matter how you look at it. It was just extremly wrong.
And this is absolutely not about Bashir having 'not enough Authority to decide', that's nonsense.
This was the Chance to have a change the situation - its the Paranoia from 'Pen Pals' of TNG that it could make everything worse 'in theory'. There's also certain chances how a Slave Race will react in that situation, but well, whatever.
Funny enough, Stargate actually explores this, unlike Star Trek. As they do with a lot, that Star Trek can't...
I thought it was the drugs and not the religion that they were addicted too
O’Brien is ordered by Bashir . . . good thing this is the one episode where they remind us that he’s an NCO. In any other episode O’Brien would laugh him off.
Nope O'Brien always respects the chain of command. You can see that in the episode where Nog is promoted to Ensign and he salutes him, even though it is "only" a battlefield promotion.
O'Brian is a 20th century every man, he has bigotries, homophobia, rather stereo typical early 20th century male attitudes. He is a Non Commissioned Officer or Non Com, and has been throughout him being a character. It is only waco moles that call him an Officer. Julian responded as the enlightened human in response to curing the Jem'Hadar addiction as well as a doctor, although the Hippocratic Oath has changed and I would expect it to have changed by the time in this episode. If he had taken the Jem'Hadar to Starfleet medical they would have been used as either lab rats or plague carriers as exemplified by what they did to Odo. I always thought that by the end of the series he would come up with the cure though and it did feel like a thread they just dropped, on among many.
I am not sure how big threat the Jem'hadar would without there masters.
I mean without question the Vorta are better tactics officers and commanders then Jem Hadar. If the Jem hadar had gain independence at worst be another Kligion Empire and set timer.
Keiko.. 🤣
But she was much nicer in M*A*S*H.
What is Mash??
The joke in the beginning of the episode is that Miles was going to say why couldn't she be more like Julian - not more like a man. He caught himself and added that at the last second, then played it off. O'Brien loves Bashir but will never admit it.
I dont know i interpret it that way..but maybe
Lore Reloaded it makes sense - Miles was just agreeing with a point that Julian had made, so naturally he was going to wonder why she couldn’t be more like him. He always stops short of telling Julian how much he likes him - think about the time where Julian gets blitzed because the Valedictorian ignored him - Miles almost admits to loving him (as a friend)
FWIW and 3 years later, that's how I interpreted it as well.
Plot twist - Chief O'brien is a changling, this is the same changling that then becomes Bashir,. Stopping the Jem'hadar from having a cure proves he was a spy with a small goal but drastic outcome.
Its a lot simpler than that. The Free Jem'Hadar wouldn't be a civilization, they would be a plague. They are bred and engineered for war and only war. It is all they know, it is all they want and it is all they can be. Without the shackles built into their biology by the Founders, they will just spread out of control and drown the galaxy in blood, because that is what they were made to do
A lot more, "Khans?" Julian was much too much the idealist to be a Star Fleet doctor. In the STO he does leave Star Fleet even if he returns for a short time, in my opinion, because he is such an idealist. He helped cure a plague of the Dominion on a non-warp capable world, which was applauded but helping the Jem'Hadar you see as a, "Khan?" Very confusing views on this one from a channel I usually tend to agree with.
One of my favorite episodes
Ah, you didn't consider the Hippocratic Oath that Dr. Bashir no doubt took. He is also a very kind individual. Garak commented that Dr. Bashir was the only Starfleet officer that believed the Starfleet mission and actually followed it. (May be wrong on the exact wording of what Garak said. Hope I got the idea right.) To tell a doctor to let someone die is a no-go for the doctor. Dr. Bashir did save Garak at the risk of his own life to confront Enabrin Tain at his house. Also, different universe, in the Stargate Legacy books there was an opportunity to kill all the wraith. Um, genocide anyone? Don't worry the wraith are okay. I know lore reloaded concerns tactical stuff but the moral implications are worth exploring. (Another video maybe?) I am ex-military so I see the tactical side of things. Still, moral injury is a part of war. To know that you killed another being is (another universe, earth final conflict) "Soul destroying". To get around this, some make the "enemy" an other, less than human, so to speak. To see the worth in all, which I guessing Dr. Bashir does, makes all life precious. Just my two cents.
Doing no harm, doesnt mean aid voluntarily and military medics probably see it different
Your whining is absolutely adorable
I do it for you
You already have an episode towards the end where Bashir states outright that he prefers O'Brien before Dax. So yea.. A lot of insinuation between the two. I always assumed Bashir would prefer guys, but i guess that would've been before its time even för ST. And then we have the fact that all gay characters only show up in the "evil/opposite" universe. Oo
I actually agree with O'Brien on this episode as well. The potential threat was too great to risk it's coming to pass. That's not a decision that a Junior Officer, with no diplomatic, or hard military strategy/forecasting training, and a Non-Com who was effectively a Grunt retrained as a combat engineer (despite how long he's been in service) should be put in a position to make. In a situation like Voyager, I could understand that, as you don't have the luxury of "passing the buck" to a superior officer there, but the potential political, societal, and military ramifications were simply too great in this situation for them.
The right thing to do is to help Jem'hadar. The tactical thing to do is not to. A doctor has a duty to those he is treated. Also as a military officer he has a duty to the body in which he swore loyalty. So he is both right and wrong. Miles though again he is a military soldier and he has to follow his commanding officers orders. If they do not conflict with other orders or are illegal order he is violation of his duty. His isn't to question his is to do. Morally right or wrong this is a very gray area morality wise. Both made piss poor decisions. Julian should have taken them back as refugees and looking for a cure for them. The reason why it would have served Star Fleet and the federation to have that research that could help sway the Jem'hadar to siding with them. He made a really bad tactical decision.
O'Brian made the smart and correct choice, but I wouldn't say that it was the right one.
(Morally, anyway)
Bashir probably thought that the Jem'hadar would not allow them to go to Starfleet medical because they were captives. I think he is right about that. Bashir was not wrong to try to free them of the drug and O'brian was understandable to pull Bashir, his commanding officer, away from the situation for his own good. But if Bashir was able to replicate the independence from the drug that the first had, it would have changed the dynamics of the Dominion. Who know how that would have played out.
Yes, Bashir should have taken them back. It would have provided such a unique opportunity to allow them to be free fro the white and see what would happen. O'Brian should have at least been willing to do that after seeing how bad off they were and how they could be able to help the Jem'hadar.
Remember when o'Brien had his wife get body shifted back to an 8[something whatever age it was] year old again in the enterprise? He's had to deal with keiko and weird stuff.
I'm fairly new to Star Trek UA-cam, so coming across this channel I was kind of excited for a bit, but like, that entire Keiko bit at the beginning was just... idk. "The Bajorian language now includes Keiko to mean nag" is such a fucking hack joke. Also a pretty hack joke is that section of analysis with "Discovery fans would get triggered by good TV just cause there's jokes about gay people." Like, you got any jokes about the mother in law? Got a good zinger about airline food? It feels derivative. If I want to hear those jokes I can look in like half of all Netflix comedy specials
And then it just passes, without it really further tying into your video's point. And the point is quite interesting. I think it is pretty important to discuss Julian's decision, the ethics of it. I think it's important to ask whether there was virtue in him acting on his own without trying to contact Starfleet and only rely on his own judgement. You present good analysis, although not really much of it. Maybe instead of doing a hacky nag joke, you could have spent more time exploring the nuances of Julain and O'Brien's characters or the shown nature of the Jem Hadar. I have granted only seen a few videos of yours, but you seem to have the same problems of like, Steve Shives's Star Trek Videos- too ready to go on tangents unrelated to the video's point, that are not entertaining, and seem rather self-impressed.
Sounds like the channel isnt for you.. thanks for giving it a try
@@LoreReloaded Alas it doesn't seem that way.
Best of luck of course with the UA-cam grind. I hope you find happiness in your art, even if I don't.
@@aronpuma5962 I really enjoy what I do, to a large degree. So I appreciate that. I would earnestly suggest taking a look at Trekyards (though sometimes they can be a bit like what I do).. Also you really might enjoy Ketwolski but he doesn't do the same type of analysis.
@@LoreReloaded Thank you for the recommendations
On one hand, senior staff doing field work seems to make sense....it seems altruistic. However, the idea that they would go on a survey mission and leave their staff to handle issues is a bit unorthodox. These are not "junior" officers in rank, albiet O'Brien is a strange case (he has a Non commissioned Officer grade but his rank as a chief engineer of a space station on the frontier), so their proper position is at the top of the echelon. That said, Star Fleet HAS ALWAYS HAD THAT PROBLEM!!! Kirk, Spock and McCoy beaming down into "who knows what?!?" is very much a violation of usual protocol...even the M-5 Multritronic Unit knew that. The Captain is the titular head of the vessel who's functions on shore are usually diplomatic. Dr. McCoy, too, violates this in the Tholian Web when he is thrown shade by Spock for not supervising his staff while attending Kirk's service. Riker, too, understood the true reasoning when he, based on a backstory he and Picard shared where he was said to have prevented the Captain of the USS Hood from beaming down (that may not have been the Hood, but a previous ship posting. Nonetheless) O'Brien and Bashir should have been the FIRST... to analyze the results from a survey team when it returned with specimens...not, actually be the survery team. Just saying it seems very poor protocol. Well...except form "plot armor."
Even the worst episode of DS9 (and boy are there some stinkers in the first season.. and okay female quark episode) is better then anything in Discovery. Discovery is meh at best. Also, calling O'Brien an officer... I mean yeah and no. I understand it's a complicated issue, and he is kinda an officer on DS9, I still wouldn't call him that.
Well, Miles would much rather spend his time with Julian than with Keiko. Didn't that come up as a source of contention in their marriage?
A free jaf'fa is a free jem'hadar. If they had become free, I don't think they'd be any worse then the militaristic(sp?) klingons.
O’Brien is moaning about his wife and you ask why this survey mission required the Chief of Operations!? He wanted some alone time with Bashir ;-) Don’t forget that one time O’Brien took his wife on a runabout and he got kidnapped, tortured, put on trial and sentenced to death. I know it was still preferable to being with Keiko, but still...
Would the Jem Hadar trust Starfleet enough to cooperate if Bashir did encourage them to seek help? Remember that for all they knew they could be trading one master for another.
I think the Jem'Hadar assume they can kill pretty much anyone that betrays them, even if it takes hundreds of years. Plus, the Dominion (Vorta & Jems) have certain assumptions about how Starfleet will operate.
Phew. I feel like you watched only this series and you watched only once and you didn't watch it in order. Also, starting off your video by telling us to shut up was supposed to be cute, but it just made you seem really butthurt about getting called out for profiting on something you screwed up. There are people that have seen every component of every series, fan fiction, book about 50 times each. This is Star Trek dude -- not Dora the explorer. Have some respect to who you're getting corrected by. There are about 3 dozen things you missed with just about every statement you made. First and last visit to this channel.
Hold on this is a tv show?
I didn’t like the Chief in this episode and his actions. Maybe it’s just my morality. Idk
The Chief has had some really bad experiences in combat and is a decorated non-com. I'd follow his lead in almost all combat scenarios. Bashir is a good soul and if they had any backup, I'd follow his lead. I'd rather live, escape and come back to help the Jemmies if they survived their withdrawal.
I always found it odd how the federation officer is basically saying that they shouldn't free slaves, as surely it goes against the federation and using the same broken logic of the prime directive where the arguement is well what if it goes wrong and that slim chance of it going wrong justifies not doing it. What if they had freed them? It would have atleast disrupted the dominion, if not completely crippled them and given freedom to a warrior race who would know that it was the federation who freed them (plus if they were going to fight anyone it would probaly be the klingons as they are the other warrior race and would be viewed as the better challenge), yes there is a chance that it would make the dominion more hostile towards the federation but at this point war was almost inevitable anyway so why not try to gain an advantage.
No. They missed a great opportunity. They should have found the cure, back-stabbed the Jem'hadar and taken the cure back to Starfleet.
Jeezus your salty about Discovery.
Nah...just mock everything..interesting i take on keiko more yet thats not brought up
@@LoreReloaded
Dude, I'm not sure that's how it comes off. It's every video as of late. Just saying.
Yeah, I noticed the other comment. I never really got their relationship. She was frequently written as fairly severe in my opinion.
Julian and Miles had a bromance to last the ages.
Name the last video i took a shot at discovery for me?
@@LoreReloaded
Ugh. Don't ask me to do work. This is supposed to be fun and entertaining. I'm just saying I notice that you tend to include a little salt in many recent videos. I'm not your archivist nor biographer.
Taste is subjective. You can say whatever you want. I'm saying that I noticed.
@@ray53208 including salt.. is not attacking discovery every video. Im snarky..so that is apart of the channel
At least Bashir was able to save head lubricator for turbolift six Ensign Jim Hadar from his awful carpel tunnel he received from constantly squeezing the trigger to his lube gun. It's the small miracles that really show life is worth living.
Well what do you expect from the 90s?
Dialogue and episodes like this is WHAT made the old 90s and 80s shows as good as they are..
Something these "great and woke" modern shows for the most part lack.
Even most the writing and plots in most the new stuff sucks
To say you shouldn’t free them because you don’t know what would happen ? I disagree with that completely so. The enemy of your enemy is your friend first. Causing a jem hadar insurrection would weaken the dominion.
As well and this is a little biblical but would you in your last days want to say you didn’t always try and do good because conscience was inconvenient at the time, because helping free slaves regardless of their creation could be dangerous.
Sure you don’t know what they may do but they deserve the right to try and live free. They were made killers but they can make themselves better. They deserve to try.
Humans can be awful but we’re allowed to try and be better and maybe one day we will be.
Yet again miles shows why humans aren’t as good as they claim. If you won’t do the good thing the right thing because you’re afraid of the unknown how can you claim to better than anyone.
As someone said recently after having saved some kids in a flipped over car. “ every good thing that’s happened in my life has been from helping someone else. “
I just think it’s sad, they were made as soldiers and killers but they could have been free and able to be much more maybe even figure out how to thrive somehow. If not at least they could have lived and died free which every sentient creature should have the chance to experience.
Just started noticing how many of your vids have you excusing some aspect of your video but then you negate the excuse by saying shut up or insulting those with a critique or counter opinion.
Ahhh please stop to mention Discovery in the videos about real Star Trek, it triggers my PTSD each time!
You seem to be pissed off about SJWS in Star Trek. So it appears that you know literally nothing about Star Trek.
I know far more then you, thats for sure. Be gone :)
@@LoreReloaded Star Trek has always been full of SJWs. Roddenberry was one of the biggest SJWs ever.
@@LoreReloaded I'll debate you on that point.
First?
#winner
Thirst!