Ferrari's Greatest Road Cars - The Carmudgeon Show with Cammisa and Derek from ISSIMI Ep. 76
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- On today’s episode, Jason and Derek are accompanied by a large pile of snacks to discuss the greatest Ferrari driving experiences of all time. Needless to say, all prancing horses have been FAR from created equal.
Discussion revolves mostly around the F50, which surprises Derek in its accessibility after some recent seat time with reserved expectations. Jason follows up with his experience in the 288 GTO, which was nearly perfect- high praise, given Jason’s general disinterest in turbocharged power plants.
In reality, the greatest road-going Ferraris are the ones that actually be used on the road- cars that were developed during a time when speed limits were gradually being raised, rather than docked while the bar of modern performance surpassed achievable road-going limits. This brings into question cars like the 812 Superfast and LaFerrari that Jason and Derek argue are wonderful feats of engineering but simply too fast for enjoyable road use. What even is the last great Ferrari that won’t throw you into a guard rail? Or is the ability to light up the rears in third all the fun? Tune in, and perhaps you’ll find out.
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In Clarkson's defence the early F50's vibrated a lot more to the point it was causing a few issues with the electronics. Ferrari made some engineering mods to dampen these a bit (basically adding some shims), which were retrofitted to the early cars as well as the new ones on the production line. This comes from my mechanic whose worked on Ferraris for 40+ years. I suspect Clarkson drove one before they updated it.
Paolo's vendetta is just magnificent. Poor audio listerners confused but dazed by the rumble
- I don't like this engine because you've got to really work for the revs
- But you're in a SPORTS CAR
Golden words
@ 21:41 Golden words indeed 👍
Love Paolo defending the 355! Glorious car!
I'm touched that Derrick took my advice and studied seal technique. The clap was outstanding and the seal noises were a nice touch. Apparently he even eats like a 🦭
I am one of the few that wants to rev the engine to redline to get every last drop of power. I have owned big block V8 muscle cars and yes the tq down low is amazing off the line. But now I have an ev as my daily driver so I have that instant tq all day long.
What I want in my sports car is an experience I can’t get from my ev. A high revving, light weight, great sound, communicative chassis and steering. That’s it. I don’t care about 0-60 in my sports car, I want to feel the road and enjoy and experience every time I drive it.
good luck with your "performance car" (the ev one)
@@eugenux ok
What is your sports car now/what do you want?
@@elib2670 Currently a 2022 Toyota GR86 in Neptune blue.
As for what I want, an AP1 s2000, a nc2 Miata, a del sol VTEC, a Honda beat, a 90s nsx, a 240z, 260z, 280z, 981 cayman gts, kswap rx8, stuff like that.
It's a crime that Jason hasn't been given the keys to an F40 and letting Anthony Esposito film the madness.
I think 'structural members' may be the Only Fans page name or a podcast where Hyphen speaks in automotive double entendre's
Ahahah I just snorted and choked on the granola bar I was eating (bc of course I was eating when I read this).
I definitely trust Jason and Derek’s opinions, but let’s be real, any Ferrari would be exciting as hell for most of us, even a 400 in beige.
Gentlemens! Now that you’re so far into double digits, I’d love to hear you both pick your favorite car from the given year of that episode. Absolutely solid work as always, thank you!
But, Hyphen the F40 was a tube chassis, albeit with fancy carbon-Kevlar covers.
I’ll never see, drive, or own these cars; but the discussion is invaluable because I start relating my meager experiences to theirs and understand even better what I want out of my next sports car.
It's no secret that the F50 has never been able to eclipse the shadow of it's older brother. As a kid, the need for speed games from the late 90's shaped my taste in cars, and I was always captivated by the F50 in NFS HP2. The F50 certainly isn't the prettiest car in the world, but something about the styling is just so original (that wing!), and for me the winner was always the sound of the F1 derived V12.
As an adult it's very vindicating to hear that the F50 was (and still is) underappreciarted. It's clearly a car that's lost on magazine performance tests, but it's a car that was made for us enthusiasts, rather than the 'ring laptime crowd.
I LOVE hearing you guys talk about how cars are too fast, it's honestly so true. Yet, if you mention it at a cars & coffee, people usually look at you like you pulled up in a Prius. I don't want to use 5% of the throttle, I want to use all of it, and I also don't want to die or go to jail. Therefore I need a car with a powerband that builds to a crescendo, allowing me to interact with the character of the engine and subsuquently, the chassis underneath.
Unfortunately in a world of instant gratification, so many people only want to feel turbo (or electric) torque smash them in the face at 2k RPM. Don't get me wrong, this has a time and place in many applications, but for the purpose of an enthusiast driver's car, I think DTS said it best. This is the goldilocks supercar, and I wish other manufacturers would create similar beasts. My only hope is that with the resurgence of restomod classics becoming ever more popular that they will re-invigorate the market for people to realize not every car needs to do a sub 4 second 0-60. Well done Derek, it was by far one of my favorite BTS episodes.
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I have driven the 308 a lot. But no other ferraris. The porsche cayman and 911 are just so pleasing and great to interact with.
Can I assume that you own a cayman due to your usernsme?
F50 is the best modern Ferrari, especially a Ferrari with a manual. The F12 tdf is the best front engined modern V12 Ferrari. Spot on Derek.
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21:35 And this is why I bought a base 997.2, already more power than you can use 99.9999% of the time on the public road.
Man the 997 is possibly my fave 911 gen. What color is your 911?
100% agree. One of the reasons I sold my RS3 for a Cayman.
When I rewound Hyphen's description of his sex life, I laughed so hard I pee'd 2 drops.
812 GTS - Novitec pipes. Big antisocial skids everywhere.
458 Speciale - Actually usable everywhere almost all the time.
Also, having just tracked a 296, it's f*#king scary. Beyond words too fast to be sold to the general public. Brilliant though.
@@NotRedLine how did you get that opportunity to track a 296?
F50. I still find it the most beautiful. It also had amazing performance without compromising on quality of life, in a time where few supercars did.
F12 and 812 are some of my favorite cars to look at. Great to know they’re also good to drive since I will probably never get to 😂
The 288 is the sexiest road Ferrari ever. My favorite Ferrari of all is the Dino 206S race car. But for a daily driver, I’d take Jason’s car. Near the end, you talk about V12 sounds - my favorite is the Matra V12 from the 1970s Le Mans cars, they sound like an angry animal that’s about to eat you!
I'll stick up for the Testarossa. Yeah, it's heavy and quiet, but that engine still rips, the gearbox keeps you on your toes enough to keep you awake. It really needs an exhaust to wake it up a little though.
Same with the 550. Not every car needs to be electrifying. It’s nice to have a Ferrari that you can drive for a few hours and not get tired
"Dead down low" probably means something just a bit different in an F50 than most cars. This is a 2700 pound car with 500+ HP at its power peak. It can be well off that number and still be quite quick.
My dad is exactly the guy who wants a car to look like a 917K and drive like a 1976 Plymouth Fury. Testarossa would be perfect for him, except he'd want it with a Chrysler 727 Torqueflite automatic. At one point he was seriously considering getting an automatic Boxster or Miata, and I more or less threatened physical violence. Ironically he ended up buying a 2006 Mustang manual with the most outrageous stiff grabby puck clutch I've ever experienced. Strange man. The Rule of Cool is paramount over driving experience.
I always thought the 400/412 got some of the best proportion in car design ever. Always fascinated by them but not much coverage out there on those cars.
Do you guys (specifically Derek) have any experience with that?
I love them! I personally would choose a 365 GT4. Same car basically, but all are manual, carbureted (wonderful Weber noises! Plus: not dealing with Bosch CIS), and with knock off wheels.
Do you think people in the olden days had the same conversations about horses? “This one is too fast and rides harsh.” This one is “slower but more fun to ride.” “This one is slow and rough but very charming.”
JC on point when the 47m:25s as per emission regulation, as these cars are driven quite less, mostly garaged, so the regulation needs to align with intended use...
Good episode, would be cool to hear about the best driving cars that look unassuming. The opposite of the testarossa
The F50 is by far my favorite Ferrari halo car, I never understood the negativity it got.
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I've spent a decent amount of time behind the wheel of 599, 430, and 355 and by far is 599. But yes traction isn't there! I haven't driven the newer Ferraris and can't imagine what the V-12s are like. Funny thing is I have a 2020 GT500 Carbon Track Pack and it puts its 760hp down so much better than the 599 but I still want a 599!!
I'll try not to be offended by that, "Let's go to Monaco for lunch" description of a/my 456, which does deliver a Ferrari experience - gran turismo, that is, one that the commendatore himself thought was central to the Ferrari tradition - but if that experience is not about "screaming insanity," it's not meant to be, yes, it is very different, but it is an antidote, equal to, not less than, that other Ferrari tradition.
To be fair to Clarkson cars were much softer back then so the F50 may have felt harsh, certainly compared to the "180mph sofa". The 964RS from a few years earlier was roundly criticised, whereas now no one gives it a second thought.
I've never really cared enough to really look into it, but I always struggled to see how there was enough meat in an F1 engine's block to take the capacity up 60%. No wonder Ferrari were crap at the time.
It was more like 35%. 3.5L to 4.7L. It was also done mostly by increasing stroke significantly.
I like sugar-high Jason and Hyphen! Is there a way we can do this every week without you guys dying of diabetes?
You can't do this to me man! I need to sleep!!
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😃This is too much for me. Every episode, I find myself wanting yet another car, that I can't afford.😄
I love the 288GTO, F50, and Laferrari they are my favorite of the hypercar era style Ferrari's. I also love the Pista, 458 Italia. 458 speciale, and the F12 to modern lineup. The rest I am not interested in for modern cars minus some special edition cars. The SF90 Stradale and 296GTB are cool but I have not driven them so I can't decide yet.
Edit: loved the episode and these brand specific episodes.
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theres the GMA T50 Cosworth V12 :)
I do lust after the 550 seeing as it seems it is a Daytona "done properly this time" and kind of like the greatest hits record of 60s Ferraris (to me, never driven one) though the noise is disappointing on video sans aftermarket pipes...though the notion of an everyday Ferrari (thanks Harry Metcalfe) with longer service intervals than a 456 is quite an appealing concept.
The looks aren't quite "there" though.
The 355 is the best looking V8 Ferrari......Xenia Onatopp's GTS and Clarkson's "I have to have a Ferrari" set lofty expectations. I think he's a good example of the heartbreak it creates.
For me, not having access to one....(yet)....a certain Assetto Corsa mod (here we go🙄ik ridiculous but hear me out) suggests the chassis is eh and it's actually """slow"""" (there's the thing about expectations) and kind of torque-less feeling considering it's a V8 *and* unless you get to 200km/h+ but even then...slower than a Euro E36 M3 everywhere else.
(It almost makes me wonder if Brosnan Bond's DB5 was a restomod using M3 running gear but then again, by all accounts, quite a silly notion since a DB5 can only drive *as well* as a DB5 can...some have called it "bus-like" but that's a different story)
Think at that point I ought to look into 4 cylinder sports bikes for the thrill of the noise *and* the speed but that's a different level of danger.
It has an undeniably great noise and I don't get the gated shifter sensation from this...*and* I have not felt the "loosely held together" down the road feeling Derek described.
But it's still disappointing to hear that (even after stomaching the erroneous servicing required).
Esprit V8 seems to be the same thing that I thought "on paper" would be something akin to a baby F40. It is not.
Unfortunately no Ferrari other than the F40 is anything like the F40...except the 288 I guess but that's a *different* story.
The F355 used to be my #2 since I'll likely never even come close to a F40.
It's now in a weird spot where it isn't jaw droppingly gorgeous like a Z8 or an E-Type to be automotive sculpture, probably not that much an experience to justify the cost (like say, probably a Stratos or even an Atom to a lesser extent) and to add insult to injury not usable enough which the 550 i'm under the impression is.
The 550 has F40 power levels, naturally aspirated...and V12, I did not consider that till Catchpole brought that up. It's just a shame the build quality seems to be off all these years later...but I'm still seduced by the idea.
I think every car enthusiast has wanted a Ferrari but it's funny to think Lamborghinis are more consistent with expectations from everything I've read, so much so that maybe an early gated Murcielago is the real answer to my exotica question.
Now, if only I had 80-150k+ to fulfill any of these answers lol
But even then...what exactly is the matter with a 997 GT3?
Big trouble.
Guys, I think you both have the XJ12 wrong. That V12 is made for a smooth torque and power delivery for a quiet and luxury experience for the type of Jaguar sedan with refinement; on the other hand for the sporty experience they made the inline 6 with the supercharger for the XJR which will have the whining of the supercharger screaming and therefore a less than refined experience not suitable nor acceptable for the luxurious experience in the Vanden Plas for example... I am shocked that you guys wouldn't have these kind of perspectives when talking about cars... Happy Holidays!
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Most important takeawayfrom this episode, DTS loves Welch's fruit snacks.
The Ferrari Purosangue is also a naturally aspirated V12.
Corvette episode some day?
Btw this Ferrari Episode rocked!
They did one previously whilst the podcast was hosted with Issimi
ua-cam.com/video/JlTIsMVFU9A/v-deo.html&ab_channel=ISSIMIOfficial
They did , in issimi
Can Derek elaborate on the 6 Speed 360 "issues" he touched on? That's the first time i've heard that in terms of a 6 M/T not being dialed into the car correctly? Were they really designed just for F1 even when new? Same with 430?
Jason and I have discussed this before but in sum: there's something really magnificent about the way Porsche engineers the relationship between the throttle response, the rate at which revs drop when you put the clutch in and lift off the throttle pedal, and the amount of force/time required for a manual gear change. It feels natural and harmonious, makes you feel like you know what you're doing and that you're not harming the car. The 360 and 430 have a combination of high shift effort (which encourages slower shifts from drivers who are mechanically sympathetic) and lack of flywheel effect which makes revs drop quickly and this combination makes it a bit tricky to drive these cars smoothly without either speeding your shifts up (which is hard on the gearbox) or blipping the throttle before letting out the clutch.
@@Dtamscott Interesting that it's so noticeable on those 2 models vs older ones. I remember how hard Ferrari was pushing F1 at that time. Makes you wonder if they looked at the M/T as an afterthought/accommodation. There's such a massive price difference between the 2 transmissions, would you say the premium for an M/T is worth it from just a driving experience? (leaving out rarity, resale ect)
It's not episode 74 mister Hyphen lmao
-Woman Viewer
The F355 is amazing. Yes it may drive weird and the interior might be (obviously) crappy since it's italian, but the sound it makes and the looks it has makes up for it. Engine and looks are pretty much the only standards I have for old cars since they're the only points that can be very difficult to reproduce or change. Every other points (steering, suspension, shifter, sound, etc.) can all be tuned, modified or improved, but a Ferrari engine is the heart and soul of the car, and that 5V V8 is a damn good one, especially wrapped in such a sexy body. I could deal with the drawbacks if I got to look and listen to this everytime I drive it
That being said, I love you guys and also fuck you
I'm curious to know what Hyphen thinks of the new Corvette Z06 and its flat-plane V8.
The Boxer? Wasnt the flat 12?????
boxers and flat engines are techinally different. The Ferrari flat 12 used shared crank pins whereas boxers use seperate crank pins.
More sugar enhanced episodes, please and thank you
36:40 No, the current gen (I assume you mean) Century is a V8 hybrid.
What do you guys think about the Tommykaira ZZ?
I was really hoping to hear if the Mondial is really as dreadful as people say. For years they were a cheap way to get into a Ferrari. Even they have gotten kinda pricey for a decent one.
You wander into what could be a good episode at the end - the restomod phenomenon. Restomodding an old Ferrari may be silly but it certainly is taking hold. It may even be more interesting to explicitly NOT look at Porsche 911 restomods - Singer doesn't need the publicity and the stock of air cooled Porsches is becoming more and more scarce.
Yes! The restomods are going to save enthsiast cars. Catchpole just did a great film on Datsun Z restomods. And of course there's the Lancia recreations from Kimera & MAT. I'm sure theres a ton of others (non porsche based), that deserve attention!
@@Poorschedriver
That Catchpole review definitely caught my eye. I even owned a 240Z many, many moons ago. That poor car died of rust from being the only ride of a poor student in a northern climate (me). But when running well it was a lot of fun and the restomod looks like a very fine sports car.
I followed on Catchpole's vid by doing some reading on MZR. They may have build options available for around $100K or so. Still very not cheap but a far cry from $1M++ for a Singer project. I could almost figure out a way to swap my Boxster for one.
Missed a takedown of the 458 :/
Does Derek have that massive appetite?
Gordon Murray Automotive makes an NA V12… come on guys
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I enjoy this conversation the way I imagine a dog enjoys a party: benign obliviousness. I have absolutely no basis for comparison, so it's basically all greek to me. Might as well be discussing private jets.
I've never driven a Ferrari and I probably never will. The price point both for purchase and for maintenance is just too high for me to justify.
How you dare forget about the V12’s in both the Valkyrie and T.50?!!!
Much like Tesla Model 3’s and C8 Corvettes, Clarkson is the worst thing to happen to poseur car enthusiasts who believe everything he says to be gospel. If I had a dollar for everytime I heard one of those minions say Lexus LFA is the best car in the world because a Clarkson said it was I’d have enough money to buy an LFA, which I was fortunate enough to drive one several years ago…..best engine ever? Perhaps Best car ever? Not even close
Clarkson is having fun, and too many people take him too seriously. Thats the problem.
Clarkson started off as an auto journalist but evolved into a TV entertainer. Don't get me wrong, it was brilliant and introduced millions into car culture, but it needed to be homogonizewd so that a broader audience could grasp it.
BMW no longer makes a V12 since the new 7 series was introduced in mid-2022
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Boys be back to shooting the breeze 😁
Wait, the 550 is not a true Ferrari experience? Ferrari's entire history was founded on road cars on the base of luxury V12 GT cars, they were made to be a fast Lexus with technology from the 1960's. Just as the 550 was made with technology from the 1990's. I would assume these guys are just saying nonsense to stir things up and be controversial for the sake of being controversial.
I was like Hyphen when I was his age with the eating and the trying to gain weight. Then I turned 35.
812 gts
Ferraris greatest road car is the Giulia QV.
Toyota V12 century lasted up until 2018
Y'all like cars that you have to rev out but don't like the S2000...??
"An old V12 just sounds like a gritty straight-six" Careful or David E. Davis will rise up from his grave to come get you
Airborne = placebo
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The F355 may be the best Ferrari that didn't/doesn't cost a fortune. So many great memories... ua-cam.com/video/eozy2cxBQIY/v-deo.html
Cammisa, you're wearing a hoodie with an image of a turbocharger on it, fer cryin' out loud.
Mr. "I don't like forced induction". Didn't you want to chuck a Cliff bar at him when he said that Derek?
Granted, hyphen boy needs some occasional mild cuffing for his free floating elitism.
That said, you guys are great together. And separately.
Signed,
Brock Yates informed and helped shape my curmudgeonly ways.
The atmosphere in this episode seemed tense and more awkward than usual.
Oh hoo-hoo, you have stressful job, poor piddies....
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This is probably the least interesting episode I’ve watched so far because… they’re talking about Ferraris.
the greatest ferrari is always the latest ferrari. the rest is marketing bs with a retro focus.
Wish you guys could stick to the cars.
Go read an owner's manual then 🙄
@@surrealtom I am. You ever replace the fan inside the NLA blower motor of a one-owner ‘81 911 SC? I didn’t think so. Wrong channel.