Mass loss = performance gain!
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- Опубліковано 15 січ 2023
- In this, episode 71of PowerTec 10, DV shows some hi-tech and trendy items from his 'top secret' stuff. Virtually all that is coverd here ends up as a HP producer and most of it is stuff that has never before been revealed. Among these are almost indestructable titainium lifters, vibration damping pushrods and near air weight valves that make titainium valve look positively heavy. This is just a small sample of the advanced tech that comes out of DV's MotorTec shop.
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I'm really glad that someone dug up these video series from the '80's. Nice to know that this video won't help you in your build because none of these things are available to the public. Smh.
Another great video David. Still hoping to see more with Uncle Tony’s 318 progress.
Thanks
About 30 years ago, Joe Schubeck introduced some sort of composite solid flat tappets, that were much lighter than steel, were extremely low friction, and needed no break in. In fact they could be swapped from bore to bore, cam to cam, engine to engine. I read that they were "very" expensive, but no price was given. Your colleague of the Mopar bent, Rick Ehrenberg, has a set in his "Green Brick" Valiant that once won the "One Lap of America". Can you shed light on Schubeck lifters? Why did they go away?
from what i remember, cost was the issue, while roller lifters were a known technology that got cheaper by OEM use in the 1980's.
@@albertgaspar627 Have you seen what Comp and Isky charge for their bushed solid rollers? $1,200 a set. I wonder how much the REALLY high end stuff like Jesel or Morel cost.
@@albertgaspar627 Of course, the OEMs used hydraulic rollers. NVH, no valve adjustment, etc.
@@jeffrykopis5468 right, and you can't even use their solid rollers on the street--Popular Hot Rodding's Johnny Hunkins did it on a 406 chevy small block in his 73 (?) chevelle and after 7,000 miles, they blew and showered his crankcase with the needle bearings. you have to go with the hydraulic roller lifters--at least Rhoads or Crane makes a variable duration version of hydraulic roller lifters.
but this is why old flat tappet blocks are going for so cheap now. someone else here said the reason the Schubeck lifter didn't take off (pun intended) was their ceramic coating. could be, but you probably know how many good ideas hit the dustbin due to a lack of R&D funding or being too far ahead of themselves because they don't have the advertising budget to hire the Mad Ave wizards who sell the consumer public on an idea to solve a problem they never knew they had (the jan/feb edition of the Atlantic magazine has an interesting article on the "eureka" myth that we believe ideas just come out of nowhere rather than work their way to the surface).
(unlike say, Kendig carbs where no one can get the one they purchase to match the advertised claims).
i suspect OEM roller setups made consumers realize it was cheaper to go to the junkyard and buy a 1980's-1990''s small block or Chevy 454 with little bore wear due to EFI and roller lifter bores already cast into the block, than to grab a flat tappet block from before the 1980's and convert that. I know I wondered why Uncle Tony's Garage decided a $1,000 conversion of an LA 318 was worth getting around low zinc in the motoroil (though he found out buying from Advanced Auto was his real problem, as their high employee turnover resulted in him getting handed his old tappets as new ones)
If you floated the Shubeck lifters they shattered is why, too brittle !
ALWAYS eager to see new, stronger, affordable parts!
I like the titanium lifter and the more aggressive cam lobe profile with the flat tappet lifter idea.
This channel is an absolute treasure! Thank you!
Most critical place to lose mass:
1. The parts that are moved by the cam lobe. Lifters, pushrods, rockers, retainers, keepers, springs, and valves. It helps to oil NOT through the pushrods, also, as an empty pushrod is lighter than a full one.
2. Pistons/wristpins
3. Connecting rods
4. Crank/clutch/flywheel/pulleys/cam for reduced polar moment
5. Wheels and tires/brake rotors. The Demon had 18's instead of 20's for a REASON.
6. Brake calipers
7. Suspension pieces that move
8. Driveshaft and half shafts
#1 that's a 318 Mopar trick. Convert to hollow pushrod valve train but keep the top oiling.
I really enjoy listening and watching your videos you are a one of a kind type of person Thank You So Much!!
The popular term for metals that resist vibration is 'dead metal'.
That said, I fully realize that many people associate lead, zinc, copper, gold, calcium, sodium, potassium and lithium as 'dead' metals, [some also include pure aluminum] but some alloys of much harder metals can be 'dead' as well.
'Bright' metals include tungsten, magnesium, tantalum, chromium, manganese and the like.
Interestingly, to a slight extent, the brightness or deadness of metals does not actually follow their intrinsic hardness.
But many alloys are made where vibrations will become a problem, by mixing various metals to dampen and deaden vibrations, which do not compromise the structural or thermal properties of the part to a terrible extent.
Understatement of the day : titanium is extremely NON anti seize ......
You made my day !!!
thank you for sharing your knowleage with us!!
Very interesting video as usual DV. Thanks 👍
I have built FEs and they are surprisingly good for the stability and weight mix and it you follow their methods you would be surprised how far you push factory part before failure.
As always information is premium! Thanks again , David.
Knowledge here you can't get anywhere else.. Thank you DV
Great video David
Simplify and add lightness.
Fantastic video. And that 740 hp street engine is super cool.
I really enjoy your videos David because you know what you are talking about, although I no longer race cars, your gift of knowledge still applies to other forms of racing.
Dear Dave,
Another great vid addressing an issue few could.
I’m surprised you didn’t broach the Scandium Aluminum alloy subject with its 600% increased fatigue resistance this time.
Super sounding SBC! Cheers!
Would love to know more about your flat tappet lifters like what type of oil is required, cost & cam profiles it can support? Love watching your videos & learning! Wish I had your knowledge & talents!
A titanium flat tappet lifter seems like an okay idea if you put a hardened steel button in it, and another hardened steel socket for the pushrod. Beyond that, I'd focus a lot more on the displacement, induction, and camshaft combination. If you can accomplish with a stroker engine at 5800 RPM, what you can with a lower displacement at 7700, then the stroker would be the way to go. Especially since it doesn't have to turn the water pump faster, and spins at speeds that a transmission can synchronize nicely with. If you double the speed, you quadruple the energy, and energy is checkered flags.
David been stealing from area 51 !
Great info
Great video DV. Gives a glimpse into the world of the higher end racing efforts. In fact, the story of the nascar guys lofting the valves with the pushrod, pole vaulting? (I thought they did it with the springs?). I knew some racers did it in lift rule racing but, very interesting subject and I think you could make a video on that subject alone lol!
Loft is achieved through proper spring rate so that it's controlled. When the pushrods act like a spring it sends the valve train into damaging harmonics and loss of valve control...NOT desirable....you cannot put a big enough pushrod in an engine
One time a bunch of [so called (mostly self professed)] 'engineers' were trying to say that shaving mass out of the reciprocating mass had absolutely no effect, because, [so they claimed] there was somehow some kind of 'conservation of motion' going on, DESPITE people like our dear David here PROVING time and time again, that reciprocating mass is ALWAYS going to be working against the total power one gets to the wheel.
I used aluminum retainers back in the 1970's on a Mopar small block bracket racer (which Mr. Vizard said was common practice back then). Never saw a retainer failure on my vehicle or anyone else's.
Schubeck's tappets were ceramic . Had a big problem because most of the ceramic at that time was going into bullet proof vests .
I.m learning tons from you and your videos I'd love to know you personally
I want to say Thank You for your helpful videos
As I've mentioned before, I 'play' with motorcycles.
Titanium Nitride is frequently used as a low friction anti wear coating on fork tubes. (although more often seen on HSS or carbide cutting tools today)
Since around 1984 gudgeon pins have been taper machined on the ends to make them lighter, it's an easy way to change balance factor plus, I've always believed anything to make piston assembly lighter will give rod an easier time.
I always wondered why car engines with MUCH heavier pins didn't do the same with internal tapers?
Bikes have insanely high rpm and power to weight ratio, the engines are not loaded like a V8 in a 3000-3500 pound car with much higher drivetrain resistance. The trend in high power boosted stuff is heavier and heavier gudgeon pins.
@@b.c4066 I think that was true in the 80's and maybe the 90's and is still common when engines are built from catalogs but lighter parts giving better performance are available at reasonable cost. The outer edges are not contributing to the load capacity though, 'slipper' pistons with shorter pins would be a greater benefit.
The biggest problem I've found is the 1950's attitude to almost everything automotive (my grandad, uncle, etc did it 'this way') It doesn't mean it's the right way today even if it was back then
Cost.
@@JeffKopis It doesn't cost much with a tool post grinder to have a 10-15 degree lead in at gudgeon pin end, on a large machine you could probably just use carbide boring bar. (plus, you could actually match all the pin weights)
As it's internal taper and pin is 1/4" (or more) wall thickness, you could remove some weight at very little cost, particularly if you know a hobby machinist.
Even a bench-top lathe could cope with anything up to 3" diameter.
If you didn't mind spending some time, you could probably do it on a Harbor Freight 7x10 with a Dremel clone and a $5.00 pack of cheap 1/8" shank stones.
I may be wrong but if you look at the stress points, the ends of pin don't really have any as pin is supported in the piston bore which is around 1" long each side plus the small end of rod.
The main stress will be where the changes occur.
A ways back I saw an article or advertisment for carbon fiber lifters supposed to be the cats ass but never heard anything more
I recall reading the same article years back
Dam good video sir
What cubic inch is the sbc in this video?? Great content as usual David V 👏 👌 👍
I want to see the end of the pin! Honeycomb? 2 layers of tubing filled in between with composite?
A steel pin in a small engine especially can weigh near the piston weight, in a car engine it an be a fair fraction of the piston weight, for a small engine a titanium pin would be an awesome advantage!
🔔😎
Notice how that engine jerks at closed throttle?
Rarely talked about, THATs often moment that things go from together to apart.
I'm going to have to disagree with part of this. On a circle track or similar engine, loss of rotating mass is a benefit. Especially when you're on and off the throttle. However, in a drag racing application, inertia is your friend. I went from a heavy flex plate to a lighter one and lost more than 1.5 tenths and 2 mph in et. When I went back to the heavier wheel, I immediately gained my et back. A world record engine builder I'm friends with (not going to mention his name without his permission) has started going back to standard and heavy weight rotating assemblies on his builds. They have consistently gone faster on the track than the lighter weight parts did. I do agree on valve train as well, on the valve side.....lifter side, stiffness in pushrods and rocker arms only benefits the package and affects valve action in a positive manner. Weight on the lifter side of the valve has little effect. You can't run a big enough pushrod in an engine....steel rockers are better than aluminum, and the more rigid the valve train, the more power the engine will make. On carbon fiber internal engine parts, never going to happen. They do not work inside an engine due to chemical resistance and other factors. They have been tried and failed miserably....
Often I think of the first engines. When every part was hand made , parts were invented, and how much steam engines had in common with the first internal combustion engines! They tried long stroke low rpm, that didn't work so well, the oil burners was something else i believe, id like to build a performance (haha 😆) version of the firsg diesel engines, a two stroke with valves, like the old Detroit 71 series or 53 series using a blower to scavenge ,. A minimum of 4" bore, 2 opposed cylinders, and 6" -8" stroke , it would be awesome to build and lots learned from it,
You are the man.. I gotta break sum first 😆
THANK YOU DAVID, REMEMBER WHEN THEY CAME OUT WITH THE MUSHROOM LIFTER? DID YOU EVER DO ANY TESTING WITH THEM? I NEVER USED THEM AND DONT KNOW OF ANYONE WO DID
The Ford Y block engines came from the factory with (solid) mushroom lifters. They must be a pain in the ass to install, especially in the car!
DV, I mentioned him yesterday, but was Joe Schubeck your collaborator on those titanium/composite lifters?
It would always seem that the first place one should be dropping mass, if one has any choices at all, should start with the reciprocating mass because that is the worst parasitic loss in the entire system.
Yes, every single place one can give up the mass is good, but by all means, the items that need to be as light as possible are those that are changing directions.
What about lightweight crankshafts? Can you do video about them?
DV has a good crank balance video.
Yes. The street car recipe for a 421 SB Chevy valvetrain .23 deg. Head. 69 Camaro stock weight. 2000 to 2200 rpm cruising speed . Looking for maximum HP I Can use?
Carbon fiber in the pin?
They are carbon fiber wrapping steel rifle barrels now, they are using much lighter thinner wall barrels with carbon fiber wrap building the remainder of the barrel wall. They are lighter, and more dimensionally stable after many sequential shots as well as dissipating heat better.
Colin Chapman type stuff here!
You're still misspelling "ignore" in the intro 😉.
Hollow stem v titanium strength wise. Similar?
David, cover thermal coatings.
Bv
Science & Technology
I was thinking once , why not make a solid lifter from steel , about .125" thick bottom machined to contact the cam, and induction hardened, or vice versa, with a side wall about .050" with oil grooves .015" x .250" tgen lightly press in an aluminum core hollow with xa tool steel bucket ti accept the pushrods the aluminum core can have multiple holes machined thtough them to lighten it.
I saw a suspension A arm designed by A.I. it was like a roll cage made toothpicks, it had reinforcenents everywhere, its weight was like 1/3 the normal weight, I believe a lifter using aluminum with a steel skin For the lifter possibly the same could be done with titanium, if the expansion rates would be similar, and there is any other benefits, it possibly make a lifter that is small diameter but is a brass bushing working in opposite as usual, but a lifter. Made from two cups basically a steel one and one aluminum, the aluminum fittings inside the steel inverted, with a steel pushrod bucket on the top, using a 1/8" groove goin around tge aluminum internal, and up to the pushrod bucket! Like the first idea, sorry to ramble again, good day
This intro looks so Gundam inspired
Are rocker arms included in this engine diet?
DV has a good rocker arm video.
I'm wondering are you guys going with a flat tappet cam and lifter in the Mission Impossible engine? If so I wonder which manufacturers will you be picking from? The internet is riddled with horror stories about people wiping out their cams. Everyone is thinking twice about running a flat tappet lifter and cam set up now😳
Howard's are said to be of a better steel, and have better surface finish and QC. In fact they offer a 5 year "no fault" replacement warranty on their cam kits, as long as you use their oil additive.
Also, many smaller cam companies have regrinding service for not only factory cams, but factory TAPPETS as well! I learned that from Delta Cams in Tacoma. The 50 year old OEM ones were better steel too.
@@jeffrykopis5468 Interesting, I spoke to Howard's Cams last week regarding break in. The rep I spoke to never mentioned any "no fault warranty" or the need to use their oil additive. In fact, the rep told me to use Maxima oil Break in Oil only.
Part of the problem is oil additives and also the way USA grades oils. ZDDP 'optimum' is around 1800PPM but has been reduced to around 700PPM.
The other thing is 'synthetic' oil often isn't.
I remember talking to a Royal Purple technical rep several years ago, American oil industry was way behind Europe as even in 2010 the big lazy V-8 was common compared to the 1.8 and 2 litre in Europe
The main problem is not the oil, it’s the cheap, non hardened, Chinese cores that are pawned on the cam manufacturers. The OEM companies don’t use them anymore so no money in making them right.
We debated this on our latest bbc build for over a month. Researched and researched. Howard’s was on of the best. Solid with oil hole to lube cam almost won out. For a few hundred more we went with a solid roller from Howard’s. Pay up now or pay up later with a complete engine tear down.
I tried to search for carbon carbon valves on Google and I found nothing. It's kind of hard or excuse me extremely hard to believe a single valve cost $50,000. That's $800k just for a set.
Here's my question. And before, let me say this. I get the challenge of it all, etc. What I want to know though is what's the max HP total gain you can achieve on the free, or for pennies. 50? 100? I'd also like to add that time is money. If I gained 100hp by using up a bunch of time on these minor things that I could have gotten elsewhere in purchased parts then what's the point? Or rather what is the point of dimishing returns. I'm not dogging these methods, but I'm not so sure it's always worth the effort.
It depends on your income, your budget, and your free time. As a disabled retiree, I have NO budget for fancy parts, but all the free time in the world.
It's an AUTOCLAVE, not a conclave.
while less mass typically helps, there are cases where ballast is critical: if you're in a no prep event without enough rear weight, adding some out back can absolutely speed you up. this all depends on the car and track though.
David, who does the editing and proofreading of all of your subtitles? I see so many misspellings in your videos. “Ignor?” Really? 🥴
😭
Pretty sure that makes no difference in the actual content and information he has provided for years. You're gonna try and one up him on a grammar mistake? This guy has forgotten more than most will ever dream of knowing. A literal living legend.
Yes, it actually DOES make a difference in your content. It makes a difference in how seriously people take you. As an old boss once told me “You can be an Einstein, but the way you write and speak can make or break how people perceive you.” Yes, I’m aware David is smart. I’ve followed him since his magazine days. But he’s in the beginning stages of building his brand on UA-cam now. Many of the young viewers clicking on his videos have no idea who he is. If I’m one of those and see him spelling words like “ignor” in his intro I’m probably clicking out and dismissing him as just another Bubba. It’s just constructive criticism. Take it for what it’s worth.
Salvatore, I find your constructive criticism very interesting. I look forward to reading more of your critiques encouraging David to improve his videos. I’m sure he greatly appreciates your kindness and concern. The people in your life are lucky to know you.
Ugh. Came in at 11th…
I understand all this but when you loose mass. You loose torque. And as u were saying inursha.
Only lose instant torque ( inertia ) the engine momentum but never lose torque & power output .
Ok what about constant torque. Like pulling a trailer exc, I am only asking. I am kinda old school in thought on torque rotating mass exc. So forgive me if I seem. Dense! Thank you.
That only applies to the crankshaft and anything that is hanging off the ends of it, if you are talking about inertia dependant performance. In any other situation, you are using power developed by the combustion process to accelerate and overcome mass. Accelerating and decelerating rotating mass consumes energy, thus torque, thus horsepower. Heavy flywheels are a huge advantage on slow reving motors, that you want to hold steady rpm, but they are an equally huge disadvantage during acceleration. Horses for courses. So, accelerating a valve uses horsepower. Compressing the valve spring uses horsepower. Reducing the mass of the valve, reduces the required spring seat pressure and spring rate, so more horsepower is available for the crankshaft output. It's quite common on race motorcycles to try to reduce valve spring rate as much as possible, as it makes a significant difference to crankshaft horsepower.
@@theshed8802 Don't forget, Honda used various 'experimental' technologies on motorcycles for years before their cars got the same stuff. I think VVT was on the VF800 before it was on the car engines? (although I had moved from Honda dealers before them)
I've heard of a metal in the Russian side of the world that can be mixed with aluminum that makes it many times stronger. Does anyone have knowledge of it.
Scandium - 90% of the worlds supply is in a mine just outside of Kevi Ukrain!
An autoclave
Good info but I'm afraid it's out of the range of anyone but pros. At least for the next 5-10 years...
What hell is a carbon carbon valve?
Very expensive
It's made from burnt toast, very cheap😆
Many drag race engines run faster with heavier flywheels regardless of dyno numbers
The engines run faster or the car ETs quicker?
A heavy flywheel will launch the car quickly.
World's fastest indian... anyone?
Geronimo 😅
@@Living_EDventures
No. Burt Munro, look him up.
Time is worth more than money, sorry but I have personally got 100grams off a Chrysler magnum rod. Not worth the time. I could have worked and bought a nice set of rods for the time I had invested and they be stringer with better bolts ect.
So how can you ever afford to sleep until 10:00 on Sunday? That’s 14 hours in a week. I think I could get a set done in that time without spending money.
Often it is NOT about money spent, but what you can get out of what you already have... Also sometimes you cannot use aftermarket parts in some competitions.. Drag racing and hot rodding were allllways about what you could do with what you had. Not how much money you could throw at it!! The latter is why racing went to hell.. Too many people with big money simply paying someone else to figure it out and build it. Then they act like they are something special bragging about "THEIR ACCOMPLISHMENTS"!! no thanks. I will stick with being proud for actual accomplishments!!!
Nice one, I'd guess very few have had that first-hand experience, myself included.
I'm guessing that if you were to do a second set you'd do it in half the time.
(DV can probably do it in his sleep at thie point)
I want to try it, even though i know it will be time consuming. But I figure the time doesn't just buy the rods, it also buys the experience.
You never know, I might one day build an engine where aftermarket rods don't exist.
Time is relevant to cost though, I actually figure I probably could have worked at my job and payed off a loan for a Dodge Viper instead of building a car for a hobby... plus the cost of all the tools/equipment. Yikes!
Those costs all adds up and on paper it's *ALL* a bad investment. 🤔
But the fact is.. I really like working on my cars and making things. And I dislike being at work, and I especially dislike my boss who can buy just about anything he wants but is so hands-off that he can barely tie his shoelaces.
There's always gonna be a balance between building and buying for everyone and different applications, not everyone has the same budget or inclination towards investing time to learn a new skill.
Were you able to pickup any measurable hp/et gains?
Seems to be largely about building your skills. This is probably the wrong lane for bolt-on mechanics.
@@wayne8498 Then again, BOLT ON and MECHANICS should never be referred to as the same people. I mean there are mechanics and there are those who fire the parts cannon at things and call themselves mechanics.. Not trying to be rough on anyone, but it seems like everyone wants the easy way. Throw money at it because eventually you will replace the original issue!!!!
Initially I found this as interesting . but starting to realise that the info pertains to Motors that only a few holdout shade tree mechanics fiddle with.
A dead subject frankly.. who cares What some geriatric 2 valve iron lump engine can do. Kids have taken Honda Civics up past 1000hp . but even that is yestedays' news.
Tesla store will eagerly sell you a 1000hp car and it can drive itself.
You'll never "get it".
Go watch football.