I trained in the Swede Flashover Container for the first time in 1991 near Stockholm. It was never designed for firefighting tactics - it was developed to show students how to read smoke conditions in a pre-Flashover environment. Since Europeans don't use smooth bore nozzles, but rather high pressure FOG, one thing the instructors did train us was to cool the ceiling just long enough in order to get out. Everytime the nozzleman opens the straight tip in this video -- the fire comes right to him!
Hi everyone, I am a firefighter from France and I am very surprised to hear that you guys over in the States use straight bore nozzle settings. In Europe we mainly use a 30° - 45° cone setting on our nozzles. The we pulse the rollover to knock back the fire and cool the gases down to prevent the flashover. We also use a combinde attack method where we use a 30°-45° cone onto the ceiling and gases layers and a straight bore jet onto the base of the fire. Take care guys.
"straight stream" is a setting on a fog nozzle. It is called straight because the pattern is not angled as is your 30 degree pattern(Which would be a narrow stream I believe) When a fire is occuring in a room without proper ventillation it is not recommended to hit the hot gases with a fog stream because all of that water will expand into vapour with explosive quickness and cause steam burns, fire extension, and bring the hot gases from the ceiling to the floor.
a flash over is when the fuel has started to give off vapors and the smoke will actually catch fire. in this situation everything in the room will catch on fire including people in side. it gets so hot that your face piece can melt to your face. The rule of thumb is when you relize the flash has started you have 2 sec or 5 feet till your dead. i hope this answers your question. It is truly amazing
Sounds like you are discussing what to do if you suspected a flashover was imminent and you had to delay it to get out of the room. If the smoke from the celing suddenly drops to the floor it might mean flashover is about to occur, in that case you could hit the smoke and cool it enough to delay the flashover yet create harmful steam. You would then find your exit and retreat.
You pencil the ceiling because the water droplets, after they hit the ceiling are larger then in a fog pattern so they absorb more BTU's. Plus all the material in a room doesn't ignite it's the gasses along the ceiling that ignite.
to everyone. The pattern you should use during an interior attack is a straight stream. The reason being, as a fire burns it creates a thermal layer. This layer slowly moves down as the fire progresses (this is why we teach children to roll out of bed and crawl under the smoke, also why we stay low.) Hitting the fire with fog will disturb this layer, hindering visibility and potentially "steaming" the interior crew. a simple contents fire can be knocked down with hardly any water.
Great video demonstrating nozzle use!This debate will forever live as long as FF's live. As far as Fog nozzles are concerned, straight stream is the only use during a fire attack and fog pattern in a flashover situation will not save you, GPM will if you react fast enough...good stuff thanks for the video!
When you know that all the hot gases have a safe exit point(for example a whole in the ceiling) a very effective way to attack the fire would be with a fog pattern of 30 degrees. The added water surface area of a narrow fog pattern over a straight stream pattern allows for rapid cooling of the fire area. And to attack the fire you could do a combination attack(attacking the celing level and then circling down to hit the fuel)
This is an important part of our firefighting training, to learn how and when the flashover occurs, how we cope with it and try to contain it. It is done in a safe invironment and always supervised by seasoned instructors. We do the exact same type of traing in sweden and we have never had any misshaps, gets a bit hot sometimes but thats part of the job :)
The purpose of the Swede Survival Falshover Simulator is not fire extinguishment -- but rather learning visual indicators leading up to flashover. The Swedes contend that short bursts of a straight stream directly into the overhead smoke will cool the fire enough to allow hoseteams to evacuate the room. In short, if the fire is presenting as it is in this video, you shouldn't be in the same room with it.
@guitarjoe1234 You are correct.. Flashover is when a room gets to such a high temperature that everything in the room "flashes" or catches fire at the same time. Backdraft is when the un-burned fuel in the smoke ignites explosively
I personally think using smooth bore branch/nozzle for compartment fires is crazy. Ok the smooth bore delivers more water and the throw distance is incrediable with only 5 bar pressure and great for high rise with resistance losses etc. BUT i much prefer being in control of a fire with a combination branch/nozzle and not just drowning a fire like someone with zero training would do. 1 your going to get burned 2 extra water damage 3 useless for flashover/sgascooling/temp guaging.
LOL, his SCBA thermal warning is going off when the flames lick him, no sh*t, I know its hot, I'm surrounded by fire! Good use of the fog pattern there too....
Flashovers are cool to see as long as there's nobody inside. The definition of a flashover (in layman's terms) is that the superheated gases in the upper layers of the room cause everything in the room to instantaneously reach ignition temperature at the same time and it all bursts into flame......including any unlucky firefighter stuck in there. I've never personally been in that situation, but I'm guessing that the unlucky firefighter wouldn't think it was so "cool"
A flash over is the transition between the growth and fully developed stage of the fire and is not a specific event such as ignition. During a flashover, conditons in the compartment change very rapidlyas the fire changesfrom one that is dominated by the burning materials first ignitedto one that involves ALL of the exposed combastable surfaces.
Test the fire for return? Get charged line out of the room? I have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect you don't either. How about opening the nozzle (straight stream) all the way and extinguishing the fire? Disturbing the thermal layer does not speed up flashover. The layer has to be disturbed in order for fire to go out. No fire has ever gone out without the layer being disturbed.
@fdwt994 The US seems to be a little backward in that respect - Gas cooling (Cooling the hot gasses with very short bursts of fog - maintaining the neutral plane) as a method of fire fighting is becoming recognised as the most effective way of dealing with compartment fires in a lot of fire services around the world. Pencilling is a skill, which once mastered is effective and much safer than just piling water on.
If you've ever seen posidon, in the film the hall way explodes with a flashover in the very beginning. Witch Is being compared to " if you breath it in, your lungs disintegrate."
Penciling is designed to give you a few extra seconds to get your ass out... not to put the fire out. Hit it with all you got and see if you survive the steam...
well if there are viable victims in the interior the direct attack method is used with short straight streams at the base to reduce steam and not distrupt thermal barrier... If no victims combination attack can be used with short circles with narrrow fog above the fire to cool and eventually choke out with appropriate levels of steam... NFPA standards
@rdpoquiz1 no a fog will steam you out and you will get steam burns. i have seen a lot of guys hit a fire close to flash over with a fog and that thermal layer hits the ground i can show you all picks of guys on are department that have been burned becuse of the fog. the fog is good for grass fires and a few outhers but in this cass it will kill you.
If a you have a room that flashes, you'd most likely be dead! Unless you are quick enough to drop to the ground, turn the nozzle...left for life and hope you survive. Most likely you'll be very badly burned if you do survive.
That may be the case here,,, but in real life scenarios fogging is the way to go. You wouldnt sit there in a real house fire and play with a flashover like they do in this training video. Youd be pulsing/fogging the combustable gases and cooling the atmosphere as quick as possible as to avoid the flashover alltogether. Then you attack the seats of the fire directly. Steam might burn you and push the atmosphere downwards breifly,, but if the room flashes,,, you die.
@Deadeye2020 you do realize the entire point of this is to show you penciling will break the cycle up just enough for you to abandon your position and bailout
i thought flashover is when everything in the room reaches its ignition temperture, and a good indicator that a flash is about to happen is that white light, but then again im still a newbie.
@CRFallday a lot of volenter departments have a juner fire fighter program some do some dont. you might need to find on thats is close to yours just go down and talk to him stick with it. it is worth every bit of efert you put in to it.
@kevdog1148 I simply stated a fact about facing a flashover. I do now what this video is all about, I took the training twice. Flashover training should be mandatory for all fire fighters. Prepares fire fighters how to prevent a flashover and how to possibly survive a flashover, as well. Peace!
Bonjour! do you not use Fog Nozzles...they are more effective..but it deppends waht strageties you put in place..Im a Fire Academy student,but it all about stragedies and tactics!
I'm sorry but i do not seem to understand. In my country we practise the fog pattern in a flashover. But in a recent u.s. article they advise on using the jet method. Can you tell me what shd be the appropriate method... Thnx..
So, Whats the right Nozzle pattern?? when putting a house fire out.... Like when its not flashing over? Not fog would you?? I dont really no? Im still in training :) lol
I didn't even watch the video or read one comment! How about focusing one Not being inside where a flashover can occur? You extinguish all Visible Burning Material from the outside and cool the hot gasses before you go in! Then continue cooling until you get all the BM! It's called Doing the JOB, not Playing with it!
It’s to show you what signs of flashover look like not how to necessarily “fight” the flashover. It’s to provide situational awareness and what to do in those instances and to know when to get out or start spraying water so we can all go home at the end of the day.
@Skankpronger he is low to the ground. that is verey good. you get higher then what the guy on the line was and you will die it has nothing to do with grabbing your balls. that was a tranning that is were he needs to be as it is the guy in front on the line his gear was fried after that thoughs temps in there are hotter then what are gear is rated for. pluse if hes new to the department and fire serves then that is a hell of a better place for him then standding up.
All this talk about penciling and painting is nonsense, at least it is if we're talking about actual interior firefighting. The nozzle is there to extinguish fire. Open it wide in a straight stream and aim at ceiling. Then whip it around in a circular motion or side to side. Don't worry about thermal layers or neutral planes, etc. They are not your friend. The steam generated by extinguishment is NOT too hot for firefighters in proper PPE. Flashover IS too hot for firefighters in proper PPE.
not supper unnecessarily dangerous they followed all the NFPA 1403 guidlines for live fire training what they saw in that controled inviroment is exactly what they need to know to look for if they are in a house if they see that on a true fireground they now know its time to get the fire out or get out of that house
guy in back left should not even be a FF . if he was ever in a for -real situation like that he would be worthless. you need to grab your balls and go if your gonna get anything done in a fire
oh really? I'm from Canada. But yea we'll take a chainsaw to a roof or floor if we have too. Thats interesting. Why don't you cut at the roof? Don't want to risk destroying structural members?
"choke out with appropriate levels of steam"? Absolute nonsense. I"ll admit to not knowing much about NFPA standards. But I know plenty about firefighting. We don't "choke out" fires. We extinguish them. By cooling the area. With water. Lots of it. Also, I've never once seen anyone from NFPA on the fireground.
We don't have hydrants in our area so you cant just throw water until its out, effective ventilation can drastically reduce the amount of water needed on scene.
I trained in the Swede Flashover Container for the first time in 1991 near Stockholm. It was never designed for firefighting tactics - it was developed to show students how to read smoke conditions in a pre-Flashover environment. Since Europeans don't use smooth bore nozzles, but rather high pressure FOG, one thing the instructors did train us was to cool the ceiling just long enough in order to get out. Everytime the nozzleman opens the straight tip in this video -- the fire comes right to him!
Hi everyone, I am a firefighter from France and I am very surprised to hear that you guys over in the States use straight bore nozzle settings. In Europe we mainly use a 30° - 45° cone setting on our nozzles. The we pulse the rollover to knock back the fire and cool the gases down to prevent the flashover. We also use a combinde attack method where we use a 30°-45° cone onto the ceiling and gases layers and a straight bore jet onto the base of the fire.
Take care guys.
"straight stream" is a setting on a fog nozzle. It is called straight because the pattern is not angled as is your 30 degree pattern(Which would be a narrow stream I believe) When a fire is occuring in a room without proper ventillation it is not recommended to hit the hot gases with a fog stream because all of that water will expand into vapour with explosive quickness and cause steam burns, fire extension, and bring the hot gases from the ceiling to the floor.
a flash over is when the fuel has started to give off vapors and the smoke will actually catch fire. in this situation everything in the room will catch on fire including people in side. it gets so hot that your face piece can melt to your face. The rule of thumb is when you relize the flash has started you have 2 sec or 5 feet till your dead. i hope this answers your question. It is truly amazing
Sounds like you are discussing what to do if you suspected a flashover was imminent and you had to delay it to get out of the room.
If the smoke from the celing suddenly drops to the floor it might mean flashover is about to occur, in that case you could hit the smoke and cool it enough to delay the flashover yet create harmful steam. You would then find your exit and retreat.
You pencil the ceiling because the water droplets, after they hit the ceiling are larger then in a fog pattern so they absorb more BTU's. Plus all the material in a room doesn't ignite it's the gasses along the ceiling that ignite.
That's freakin awesome to have that included in a training exercise. Educational and crazy to see in a controlled invironment.
to everyone. The pattern you should use during an interior attack is a straight stream. The reason being, as a fire burns it creates a thermal layer. This layer slowly moves down as the fire progresses (this is why we teach children to roll out of bed and crawl under the smoke, also why we stay low.) Hitting the fire with fog will disturb this layer, hindering visibility and potentially "steaming" the interior crew. a simple contents fire can be knocked down with hardly any water.
Great video demonstrating nozzle use!This debate will forever live as long as FF's live. As far as Fog nozzles are concerned, straight stream is the only use during a fire attack and fog pattern in a flashover situation will not save you, GPM will if you react fast enough...good stuff thanks for the video!
When you know that all the hot gases have a safe exit point(for example a whole in the ceiling) a very effective way to attack the fire would be with a fog pattern of 30 degrees. The added water surface area of a narrow fog pattern over a straight stream pattern allows for rapid cooling of the fire area. And to attack the fire you could do a combination attack(attacking the celing level and then circling down to hit the fuel)
This is an important part of our firefighting training, to learn how and when the flashover occurs, how we cope with it and try to contain it. It is done in a safe invironment and always supervised by seasoned instructors. We do the exact same type of traing in sweden and we have never had any misshaps, gets a bit hot sometimes but thats part of the job :)
a solid stream nozzle is the only way to fight a interior fire. maybe its just a east tennessee thing but very good results.
The purpose of the Swede Survival Falshover Simulator is not fire extinguishment -- but rather learning visual indicators leading up to flashover. The Swedes contend that short bursts of a straight stream directly into the overhead smoke will cool the fire enough to allow hoseteams to evacuate the room. In short, if the fire is presenting as it is in this video, you shouldn't be in the same room with it.
@guitarjoe1234 You are correct.. Flashover is when a room gets to such a high temperature that everything in the room "flashes" or catches fire at the same time. Backdraft is when the un-burned fuel in the smoke ignites explosively
*Basic chemistry:*
A combustion reaction without enough oxygen (O2) and heat (T
I personally think using smooth bore branch/nozzle for compartment fires is crazy. Ok the smooth bore delivers more water and the throw distance is incrediable with only 5 bar pressure and great for high rise with resistance losses etc.
BUT i much prefer being in control of a fire with a combination branch/nozzle and not just drowning a fire like someone with zero training would do. 1 your going to get burned 2 extra water damage 3 useless for flashover/sgascooling/temp guaging.
LOL, his SCBA thermal warning is going off when the flames lick him, no sh*t, I know its hot, I'm surrounded by fire!
Good use of the fog pattern there too....
Flashovers are cool to see as long as there's nobody inside. The definition of a flashover (in layman's terms) is that the superheated gases in the upper layers of the room cause everything in the room to instantaneously reach ignition temperature at the same time and it all bursts into flame......including any unlucky firefighter stuck in there. I've never personally been in that situation, but I'm guessing that the unlucky firefighter wouldn't think it was so "cool"
The fire is your problem, sirs.
I agree a fog will do the best...
A flash over is the transition between the growth and fully developed stage of the fire and is not a specific event such as ignition. During a flashover, conditons in the compartment change very rapidlyas the fire changesfrom one that is dominated by the burning materials first ignitedto one that involves ALL of the exposed combastable surfaces.
Test the fire for return? Get charged line out of the room? I have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect you don't either. How about opening the nozzle (straight stream) all the way and extinguishing the fire? Disturbing the thermal layer does not speed up flashover. The layer has to be disturbed in order for fire to go out. No fire has ever gone out without the layer being disturbed.
@fdwt994
The US seems to be a little backward in that respect - Gas cooling (Cooling the hot gasses with very short bursts of fog - maintaining the neutral plane) as a method of fire fighting is becoming recognised as the most effective way of dealing with compartment fires in a lot of fire services around the world. Pencilling is a skill, which once mastered is effective and much safer than just piling water on.
We do the same thing in Denmark. And the flashover chamber is relay fun, but hard work:-)
Yeah pretty much when a room gets so hot that everything in it will ignite at once including smoke.
If you've ever seen posidon, in the film the hall way explodes with a flashover in the very beginning. Witch Is being compared to " if you breath it in, your lungs disintegrate."
Penciling is designed to give you a few extra seconds to get your ass out... not to put the fire out. Hit it with all you got and see if you survive the steam...
well if there are viable victims in the interior the direct attack method is used with short straight streams at the base to reduce steam and not distrupt thermal barrier... If no victims combination attack can be used with short circles with narrrow fog above the fire to cool and eventually choke out with appropriate levels of steam... NFPA standards
@rdpoquiz1 no a fog will steam you out and you will get steam burns. i have seen a lot of guys hit a fire close to flash over with a fog and that thermal layer hits the ground i can show you all picks of guys on are department that have been burned becuse of the fog. the fog is good for grass fires and a few outhers but in this cass it will kill you.
If a you have a room that flashes, you'd most likely be dead! Unless you are quick enough to drop to the ground, turn the nozzle...left for life and hope you survive. Most likely you'll be very badly burned if you do survive.
my fire fighter one burn is this saturday! XD cant wait this was a really cool vid! wish we were doing this :-(
That may be the case here,,, but in real life scenarios fogging is the way to go.
You wouldnt sit there in a real house fire and play with a flashover like they do in this training video.
Youd be pulsing/fogging the combustable gases and cooling the atmosphere as quick as possible as to avoid the flashover alltogether. Then you attack the seats of the fire directly. Steam might burn you and push the atmosphere downwards breifly,, but if the room flashes,,, you die.
@Deadeye2020 you do realize the entire point of this is to show you penciling will break the cycle up just enough for you to abandon your position and bailout
Nice Training Vid...cool stuff
i thought flashover is when everything in the room reaches its ignition temperture, and a good indicator that a flash is about to happen is that white light, but then again im still a newbie.
@CRFallday a lot of volenter departments have a juner fire fighter program some do some dont. you might need to find on thats is close to yours just go down and talk to him stick with it. it is worth every bit of efert you put in to it.
@kevdog1148 I simply stated a fact about facing a flashover. I do now what this video is all about, I took the training twice. Flashover training should be mandatory for all fire fighters. Prepares fire fighters how to prevent a flashover and how to possibly survive a flashover, as well. Peace!
@xXBirDEXx125 yup. thats what a fog stream does.
Bonjour!
do you not use Fog Nozzles...they are more effective..but it deppends waht strageties you put in place..Im a Fire Academy student,but it all about stragedies and tactics!
I'm sorry but i do not seem to understand. In my country we practise the fog pattern in a flashover. But in a recent u.s. article they advise on using the jet method. Can you tell me what shd be the appropriate method... Thnx..
we DO NOT use smooth bores on interior attacks anymore. you ARE joking, right?
That's no flashover but a rollover.
1:35 did the guy on the hose really just get swallowed by those flames!!!??
So, Whats the right Nozzle pattern?? when putting a house fire out.... Like when its not flashing over? Not fog would you?? I dont really no? Im still in training :) lol
true that bro...
always got to check PPT
I didn't even watch the video or read one comment! How about focusing one Not being inside where a flashover can occur? You extinguish all Visible Burning Material from the outside and cool the hot gasses before you go in! Then continue cooling until you get all the BM! It's called Doing the JOB, not Playing with it!
It’s to show you what signs of flashover look like not how to necessarily “fight” the flashover. It’s to provide situational awareness and what to do in those instances and to know when to get out or start spraying water so we can all go home at the end of the day.
@Skankpronger he is low to the ground. that is verey good. you get higher then what the guy on the line was and you will die it has nothing to do with grabbing your balls. that was a tranning that is were he needs to be as it is the guy in front on the line his gear was fried after that thoughs temps in there are hotter then what are gear is rated for. pluse if hes new to the department and fire serves then that is a hell of a better place for him then standding up.
is it like backdraft? im a junior fire fighter, how does the flashover kill?
All this talk about penciling and painting is nonsense, at least it is if we're talking about actual interior firefighting. The nozzle is there to extinguish fire. Open it wide in a straight stream and aim at ceiling. Then whip it around in a circular motion or side to side. Don't worry about thermal layers or neutral planes, etc. They are not your friend. The steam generated by extinguishment is NOT too hot for firefighters in proper PPE. Flashover IS too hot for firefighters in proper PPE.
they were using a combo anyways.
@CTFD13 Is that the wider stream?
This seems unnecessarily dangerous for the training benefit received.
shldnt their kneels off the ground?thats what im taught.squat with ur feets
@fdwt994 Actually you do "pencil" the ceiling in a real house fire. But otherwise I can't disagree with you.
Put the wet stuff on the red stuff and go to the house cuz
im proud to be FF...
do legst di nieder
des is oan rollover un kän flashover
not supper unnecessarily dangerous they followed all the NFPA 1403 guidlines for live fire training what they saw in that controled inviroment is exactly what they need to know to look for if they are in a house if they see that on a true fireground they now know its time to get the fire out or get out of that house
guy in back left should not even be a FF . if he was ever in a for -real situation like that he would be worthless. you need to grab your balls and go if your gonna get anything done in a fire
oh really? I'm from Canada. But yea we'll take a chainsaw to a roof or floor if we have too. Thats interesting. Why don't you cut at the roof? Don't want to risk destroying structural members?
"choke out with appropriate levels of steam"? Absolute nonsense. I"ll admit to not knowing much about NFPA standards. But I know plenty about firefighting. We don't "choke out" fires. We extinguish them. By cooling the area. With water. Lots of it.
Also, I've never once seen anyone from NFPA on the fireground.
We don't have hydrants in our area so you cant just throw water until its out, effective ventilation can drastically reduce the amount of water needed on scene.