Mouthpiece Musings E02 - What we all believe about Vincent Bach trumpet mouthpieces
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- Опубліковано 9 кві 2023
- Hi everyone,
This video takes a close look at the differences between a series of popular C-cup mouthpieces by Vincent Bach and shows how much of what people believe about them is actually untrue. In some cases the truth is the exact opposite of what people believe it to be.
This is not a criticism of people; it is a demonstration of how misinformation gets repeated so much that nobody questions it.
I also find some interesting similarities and trends in the designs that are not mentioned in the mouthpiece manual. Maybe it would be more helpful if they were...
Thanks for watching. New episodes (often) weekly!
neotericbrass.com/
I know someone who was studying trumpet at university. His teacher told him to get a 1 1/2C so he went and bought one. Three months later he realised it was a 10 1/2C but he was scared to tell his teacher. He did three years of study on it and the teacher never noticed or said anything.
Haha! Great story. Speaks volumes!
10.5c is a very nice piece.
@@rubenproost2552Clifford Brown played one. Don't know how, but there you go. And Byron Stripling does what he does on a 1C!?!
Great video. It is PURE MYTH that a "larger" mouthpiece is the only approach to getting a solid, fat tone. I have played a Bach 1.5C Megatone for decades and just left my 7C sitting in my case. I recently decided to try the 7C on a whim and was utterly shocked. Everything was more comfortable and my range and endurance improved with zero sacrifice in tone quality. Also, my lip slurring overall flexibility was instantly better as well. I now believe I had been playing and practicing on a mouthpiece of incorrect size for my lips. All this conventional wisdom needs to be challenged.
Amazing video! Very informative. Just coming back from a 10 year break (played for 30+ years in my youth) and you’ve demonstrated that every teacher and PhD trumpet professor who told me to go 7C, 5C, 3C didn’t know any better. Not to mention the inconsistent manufacturing. 🙄Ha! Thank you!
Now it makes sense; when I was younger I had trouble with my low register and was switched to larger Bachs…but not much changed.
I ended up in the 6 series and grew to like it. I tried a 10.5c for a few months and it wasn’t too bad. Thanks for sharing this!
Please do a video about trumpet mouthpiece throats, a subject which in my view does not get discussed nearly enough as cup shape, volume and diameter seem to receive most attention.
All these differences are so small and yet for us players, they feel huge. I struggled a lot with high notes, endurance and painful lips until I found the 2C and here I get an idea why. But it's not popular . I notice too that my impression that the 3C is better for a Es Instrument, can be defended. Wonderful work here...
Yes the differences can feel huge and something that I find interesting too is that factors such as dehydration or natural swelling from heat can make more difference to the size of our lips than the difference between some of these mouthpieces.
I don’t remember if I mentioned it in this video but lip intrusion is another major factor…
I once did an experiment and tried out several different mouthpieces that I had in my collection without looking at what they were. To my surprise I picked the Bach 10 1/2c as the easiest mouthpiece to play with the best sound! It is far more middle of the road than people think, very versatile.
The 10 1/2C was extremely popular during the big band era.
I remember reading that the 3C was designed for a lead player in one of the big bands (Glenn Miller I think) and was pushed into the Bach line. I would like to see someone do a book on Bach mouthpieces similar to the one on trumpets
Thank you, My band teacher, 40 years ago, had me get a Bach 5c.
Thanks for this very informative video. Years ago, I attended an event where I had the opportunity to sit next to a professional trumpet player to play various pieces of music.(I am an amateur player.) This professional player told me the mouthpiece I was playing on was a student mouthpiece, I was playing on a Bach 7c, which I thought produced a good sound. This sent me on a MP safari. I tried a Bach 3c and a 11/2c, but these MPs did not produce as good a sound as the 7c. I now play on a Marcinkiewicz 2s and a 5s, and occasionally still go back to my trusty 7c. I think your video should be made compulsory viewing for everybody commentating on the Trumpet Herald!
I used to waste a lot of time on Trumpet Herald… not any more… thanks for the comment. I mention in another video that an awful lot of players, amateurs and professionals alike, hear with their eyes!
Feel free to share it around 😀🎺
I totally agree with your idea about Bach. Their "C cup" line is a caos and lot of them unplayable.... That's the reason why I moved to other brands many years ago. I've never played on Warburton cups but If you want to try something cool I recommend Stork mpc!! Actually I'm playing on a 5D (Vacchiano line). This mouthpieces are amazing!
Another interesting mpc is the Yamaha Vizzutti model. It seems to be a great match with Tce techinque.
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It's always interesting seeing your videos.
Lorenzo from Italy
Hi Lorenzo!
Yeah I had a pupil who used the Stork Vaccchiano 7D for years - they’ve got a good balance and sound that’s for sure.
Here’s the thing - Stork was trained by Vladimir Friedman, who worked at Giardinelli before he worked with Jerome Callet in the 1990s - they’re all connected!
A good friend of mine based one of his Vennture mouthpieces on the Vizzutti piece - it’s a good one too.
Wow that was very interesting my safari is even more crazy now! Cheers
Very good video. The author may stop apologizing for time taken or repetitive arguments. It’s kind of an informal class, not a lecture. Keep on bringing this kind of videos and stop saying sorry.. people like me who appreciate this wisdom will invest our time to learn from good sources.
Thank you for the comment. It is much appreciated. 👍🏼
No player should choose a mouthpiece based on what they see in VennCAD.
Every player needs to do a blind test with a few mouthpieces at a time, maybe three. Pick one, stick with it for a few weeks, then take that one and two new ones and do another blind test. After two or three play throughs, pick one for a six month run, then repeat with the two other best options and you'll probably be able to understand exactly what you need. THEN you can design something custom based on this process. I know, for instance, I play better on a narrow rim, sound better with a deep cup, and play highs and lows better with a smaller diameter cup, but no where near as small as a lead, I mean like a 7C vs a 1.5C.
I am still a low level intermediate adult player, so honestly, except for mouthpieces at either extreme, I sound and play pretty much the same on every mouthpiece, with the exception, perhaps, of Monette's new Unity and maybe a top end Lotus - neither of which I can afford.
Hi guys, I have played using different mouthpieces in my life, different brand and different sizes. Different throats and backbore like Monette Style. Actually I'm a happy trumpeter with an Yamaha 11C4 modified (Throat 3,8mm, backbore just few broad and lenght total 81mm) However I suggest you to try the wonderfull Dario Frate Mouthpieces from Italy.
Interesting. I recently conducted my first musical and one of the trumpet players donated me a cheap trumpet with 7C mouthpiece. Playing for last month, my first brass instrument, in love with the trumpet. While I'm playing all styles my end goal is to get jazz going with a sweet soft tone a la Miles Davis. At the moment ive worked my range up to C6 but the lowest notes are especially poor and inconsistent. Although at this early stage i expect my technique is the bigger issue vs mouth piece
Maybe, that said I got more consistent lower range when I moved from a 10-1/2C to a 5c. I figured I could make the 10-1/2 work but it would take more effort to be consistent. Consider looking up Greg Spence's aah - oooh concept. Also the James Stamp approach to the pedal register.
Wow, I've just put a Bach 2C and a Monette B2MS3 in the program ... they are very close ! I know where my money is going :D
I thought similar, until I tried the brand new Unity Monette mouthpieces. The Unity compare to nothing else for ease of play and ability to create the sound you want coming out of the horn. Demo one at a shop near you and tell me if you agree.
I play a Bach 3 F large letter series purchased in 2002 and I find it is most easy to control intonation. It also required I approach playing/ practicing in 15-20 minute intervals for quite a while with equal amount of resting. Over time I am able to spend a solid hour of playing or practicing without resting at this point.
When I want a softer attack or
Even get tired I can switch successfully to a Bach 3E or Bach 1E large letter both purchased in 2002 also.
Later models are smaller cups and or diameters with small letters and do not facilitate for me a successful experience.
Interesting stuff. I played on a 1D once and quite liked it. Earlier that year if been using a 1-1/4C a fair amount because I was prepping for an audition. The 1D gave me the physical feedback that I’m more accustomed to from shallower gear but with very little sacrifice to the “legit sound”.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Bach F cup.
Very interesting video!
Trumpet beginner here: what is meant by a "cushion rim" when referring to Bach mouthpieces?
If you measure the width of the rim from the inside edge to the outside edge then a broader (larger) rim is commonly called "cushioned" as it makes contact with a more of your face. It does not relate to the cup diameter or internal size. It spreads the weight of the instrument over a greater area.
Those who follow tradition approaches to playing tend to believe that this can be bad for flexibility on the instrument. They're also not very popular these days because many of the designs from the past that featured a cushion rim were not the best mouthpieces... they tended to have the high point of the rim quite near the inside and a low alpha angle, causing the "bite" to feel quite exaggerated.
@@BrassPractice Thanks very much for your fantastic explanation!
I've been looking at the Kanstul Mouthpiece Comparator for a few years now and when you look at the Bach cups there is no logic to it, each number has its own cup depth and internal shape but to make matters even crazier the rims just change across the range. I don't use Schilke mouthpieces but there is a system in place, size of I.D. depth of cup and 4 standard rims A, B, C, D. now that makes a lot of sense in terms of choosing something to suit your expected needs.
Thanks for your videos. Need your advice. I am a professional trombonist and would also like to play the trumpet.
Please advise what size to choose for a beginner adult? I've heard that the best place to start as an adult is Bach 3C. You recommend Bach 10 1/2C instead of 3C. There are also tips to start with 7C, 5C or 3C, depending on what is more convenient. Some people believe that the trombonist is best suited for large trumpet mouthpieces - Bach 1 or Schilke 24. Which tips are correct? Your opinion.
At first you’ll find any trumpet mouthpiece small. They’ll all be very different from a trombone one so that’s pretty obvious. I wouldn’t recommend doing something to negate that difference because it’s not the same instrument.
I would recommend doing a bit of mouthpiece buzzing and maybe even lip buzzing to acclimatise when you switch to the trumpet. Other than that the technique itself isn’t massively different. In fact the air pressure used for playing the trumpet and trombone is the same, it’s just that the resulting pitch is offset by an octave.
One of my teachers was a principle player in a big symphony orchestre and he used an A8 mouthpiece with a broad rim and he had a great full round and deep tone.
I am an amateur trumpeter and played for 10 years on a 1 and a half Bach mouthpiece. Later a "specialist" advised me to swith over to a 1 and a quarter mp from Bruno Tilz.
A great mp (very big) that gave me an even larger and clearer tone but not for long. Very soon my embouchure would collapse.
Anyway, many people say that the tone, your sound is in the player and not in the instrument nor in the mouthpiece. This is even so with the flute.
Last years Im switching sometimes between a 7C and a 5B from Bach . The 5B gives me a better bigger tone, but the 7C is easier, more compact and smaller in sound.
You cannot buy and try all the other mps that exist. But I wonder what would be better for me as a non professional player. I love a big dark tone. A V shaped mp ??
The thing that you're after is the ability to play with relaxed and focused chops. A good embouchure that creates a big sound is one where everything is close together, with plenty of vibrating tissue. Take a moment to ponder that this is in a 3-dimentional context, so it means that any horizontal stretching of the lips away from the centre is going to greatly reduce the amount of vibrating tissue and cause the sound to become thin and weak. No tight mouth corners or flat chins - they lead you down that open and spread path that makes playing very ineffecient.
On that same subject using a large mouthpiece, although not inherently inefficient by iself, will tend to lead a player to over blow and collapse the chops (as you have experienced). More muscle will be involved in trying to maintain chop integrity and that relaxed, flexible position we're trying to maintain will not exist for long.
As I've played on small mouthpieces for a long time I get a dubby sound on something like a 7C. It is clear but lacks overtones and doesn't project so well. To me, this is just a waste of effort. Bahb Civiletti always told me just to throw away any ideas that make the job harder than it needs to be and I agree. Trumpet playing is hard enough.
One of my teachers taught me to imagine that when you play you just have to fill the cup of the mouthpiece with air - applying this should lead anyone to using much less air, regardless of equipment. It will focus the sound and aid playing a lot. The problems will arise when you put too much effort into trying to hear yourself and spread the sound or over blow as a result. The trumpet is a very directional instrument so this goes against its nature.
Hopefully something in this ramble is helpful to you!
@@BrassPractice
Thanks jou sir for your long answer.
Very interesting! How do you explain the values mentioned in an official Bach document available on their website (named "AV2BA901_Original_1889_web.pdf"):
Approx Cup Diameter 1 1/2 C 17.00 mm, 3C 16.30 mm, 7C 16.20 mm, which is not in line with the value you show in the video.
Well Bach never define how they measured their mouthpieces.
Also, they're pretty well known for being inconsistent in their manufacture due to tool wear and designs changing over time.
@@BrassPractice But maybe, also, the 3d party measurements you're talking about were made on pieces that are not representative of the intended size, because of the well known Bach inconsistencies. I'm not trying to defend Bach, just trying to understand all that better.
@@alcibiademinel that's probably possible.
According to some of the information I found when doing some research on mouthpiece sizes recently, modern Bach mouthpieces are all now made on CNC machines, so their consistency should (at least in theory) be good now, so - much less variation from piece to piece than they used to have. Same probably goes for most manufacturers... So, probably depends whether they scanned a recent mouthpiece, or an old one.
I've also read that the reason the bach 7C is so big is that because they made so many (it was in the case of just about every trumpet they sold, and that's what everyone started on), that they used to run the cutting tools longer than for the more ^specialty" pieces, for which they were possibly more particular.
A worn cutting tool on the old turret lathes they used apparently takes a deeper cut. The cups from old, worn cutters were wider than with new cutters, so if you got a 7C made with a new cutter, it was close to spec, where a 7C from a cutter near the end of it's life was significantly larger. So, on average Bach 7Cs were larger than spec....
The story also goes that because people got used to 7Cs being larger than spec, when Bach went to modern CNC lathes, they deliberately made them larger than spec, and never updated the spec sheet......
Is this the truth? Who knows - this is just what I've read in various forums when I was doing some research on mouthpiece sizes a while back.
This only applies to Bach 7Cs, and not necessarily to other brands - I have two Yamaha 7Cs (Yamaha's model number "11C4-7C") from the early 90s which both feel significantly smaller than two Bach 7Cs from about the same period.
The two Yamahas also feel noticeably different to one another, even though they were made about the same time, and are the same model.....
Allen Vizzutti did ALL his work at Eastmen on a Schilke 14A4C
Can someone here please suggest a source for large-throat trumpet mouthpieces? I’m looking for a few mouthpieces that have essentially standard rims and standard bowls BUT have much larger than normal throats to try out. Thanks in advance!
Lotus, AR Resonance, Monette, some Klier you have a choice between 2 throat sizes, Breslmair ... and probably some others (more likely at smaller manufacturers)
@@wiemelen Thanks very much!
Bach Symphony models give you options for throat and taper.
If I'm willing to go outside the Bach ecosystem, what would be a mouthpiece brand and size with a better rim comparable to a 10.5 C that would produce the Bach sound but with reduced lip intrusion? I just played an Easter service on a 3C because the organist wanted that sound and boy was it a challenge for the chops!
Good question!
I played on a Warburton 7MD for a while, with a 9 backbore IIRC. The sound was still on the brighter side. I’m not a fan of the Warburton D cup, but the XD works surprisingly well.
I’ll have a think and see what I come up with.
Yes, please, I just played 2 Easter services on a 10.5 EW, second part. What do you recommend as a replacement?
Thanks for your help, I really enjoy your videos!
It’s quite a can of worms. I think I may do a follow-up video on this topic because I’ve a lot to say about it… as I’m sure you can imagine.
Throwing my 2¢ into the void... Curry Precision makes Bach-derivative mouthpieces with consistent rim "profiles" for all the mouthpieces in a given size. All the rims are based on good examples of Bach Mt. Vernon (!) rims, which generally ran some small percent wider/flatter/smaller on the inside/mire defined bite than the current iterations on modern Bach pieces. His stuff seems to run a little wider on the rim, and maybe a hair smaller than the correlated Bach piece. But if you want something familiar (like a Bach+), they're cheap, easy to find used, and very high quality.
If you want to try something new, talk to the friendly folks at Pickett Brass. They use one main rim profile over most of their standard line. They describe it best themselves on their site, but basically it's a wider, slightly flatter rim - more cushioned, and a more "firm" or "crisp" bite on the inside (but doesn't feel at all "sharp" to me like a 1 1/4C, 1 1/2B, 5B, 7C, 7E......) I consider Pickett to be now what Warburton once was, if not surpassing Warburton's quality. Both do offer non-metal tops/rims, which you might want if you break out or get sensitive lips from playing for awhile.
Stork's rims are a little narrow, generally, but lots of people like their stuff and Phyllis is a master. Would be great for a consultation.
There's also the "custom" shops that primarily do tailored work, scans, alterations, etc... Frost Custom Brass, Vennture, James R. New, Greg Black, and lots more. All great - but come to them with what you want to change with your playing, and let them guide you to the gear adjustment as needed.
So 2.5-2-3/4c and 7 cups are biggest🤔
Bachs bite too hard for me. Used them for recades. Got a ACB TA1 last year and am liking it lots. First piece I can get pedals with. Flexibility is way better.
I had an ACB TA-Lead for a while. It was a fantastic mouthpiece! Easy playing and a great sound too.
Didn't Bud Herseth play on a 7C? Personally I have been on a safari lately and discovered the joys of a Bach 6C. I also liked the Curry 7 rim which is quiet comfortable. Interestingly the Bach 6 rim is a lot different to the Bach 6C rim, much flatter. Feels like a different mouthpiece. Ultimately I discovered that I can play smaller mouthpieces without an significant loss of tone. Years of 3C brainwashing made me too scared to try anything smaller. The 6C has a very similar rim to the 3C.
Yeah that reference was to the Bud Herseth story. The version that I hear the most is that he supposedly did his audition for the CSO on a 7B but changed to the 1 after a motorbike accident that left him with scar tissue on the lip. The Bach 1 of that era has since been relabelled 1X by Bach and Schilke has a line called 1HC that is a copy of his actual mouthpiece... that takes us into the story of Bach manufacturing inconsistencies which is a whole other topic!
I know what you mean about the 6 - I had a cornet one for a while and my tone used to just cut out at seemingly random times, which I put down to that rim. What have heard is that Vincent Bach himself actually played on a 6.
@@BrassPractice The Schilke 11 is the Herseth model. It's a copy of the Bach NY 7C that Herseth played before his accident. It has a great sound.
Didn’t know that! Thanks for sharing.
@@IndianOutlaw1870 The Schilke 11 is a copy of Bud's Bach 7B...the 11C2 is a copy of a 7c but w a more rounded rim
Back in the late 40s Bud played a 7B, but after an auto accident that busted his chops he began to experiment with larger cups. When I met Bud in the early 90s he was playing a Bach 1B with a 22 throat and a 24 orchestral backbore.
Though I agree that trumpet mouthpiece lore is rife with conspiracy theory kind of argument, I don't get much academic argumentation (measurements of actual playing in relation to the mouthpiece, experiments) here either. (10 minutes in, skimming to the rest).
This video is intended to share information in relation to what people currently believe. I didn’t want to muddy the waters with my own opinions that would certainly be cause for debate. If you watch some of my other videos then that may lead you in the direction of knowing my thoughts. The ones about correct trumpet tone, mouthpiece Q&A, or lip intrusion would be good examples.
I don’t understand how people are able to switch back and forth between different rim diameters. I can see changing cup depths depending on what you’re playing, but I can’t play anything other than the rim diameter I play on. Anything smaller and I can’t “fit” into it and my low range suffers. My high range is fine, so that’s not a concern. What I look for is that balance of the right amount of resistance. Not so much that you’re fighting to produce the notes, and not so little that you feel like you’re being sucked into the horn. I want just enough resistance to feel like the horn and I are working together, and no more.
I covered this in my most recent two videos - TCE Talks S02E01+2. Hopefully you'll find it interesting.
considering the number of manufacturers of cheap horns around the world nowadays and purchases via ebay and such I just wonder how many mouthpiece makers can and will produce to the specs you're showing there. I'm only at 15:58 and you haven't said anything about it yet and maybe you will later but tolerances of a couple of a thou would wipe out some of those distinctions between cups.
You're right and I don't get into talking about tollerances or inconsistencies. It's quite well known that Vincent Bach haven't been the most consistent in their mouthpiece manufacturing over the years and neither have Warburton, who are pretty poplular also.
What can be said is that I know from experience that Vennture do produce mouthpieces that are extremely accurate and consistent. What does that mean for this video? Well if you ordered a mouthpiece using these scans then you'd get exactly what I'm describing in the video. These scans were taken from genuine Vincent Bach mouthpieces.
I can't say much more than that. 😅
@@BrassPractice The take home message I get - and I'm a raw beginner and live isolated, have to do it all alone or with web help only - is to ignore bach MP's apart from the supposed 7C that came with my horn - and shop for some of these others that you mention, as they seem more 'rational', and to essentially 'suck it and see' as the very nature of the thing - interfacing with thousands of different human physiologies if that's the right word - makes it virtually impossible for it to be a settled science. One man's meat is another man's poison.
If we are saying that all VB mouthpieces "basically sound the same" because our lip intrusion adapts, are we also saying that other brand mouthpieces? Earnest question from a rank amateur who played thru high school and is now attempting to "rediscover" the instrument. I played a 3C the whole time not knowing that there were hundreds of options available between various manufacturers and only just recently heard Charlie Porter's video comparing trumpets from $200 to $20000 played back to back with both VB mouthpieces and also each played with a Monette. The difference was obvious to these old ears.
I don’t think it’s even so much as us adapting to it and lip intrusion, even though I do mention those things… in some ways it’s like for every alteration he made to a design he made another to compensate or balance for the same result.
I had a long debate going on my old blog about that Charlie Porter video a few years back. I don’t buy the idea that Monette sound better, just different. The preference is subjective.
@@BrassPractice agreed and why I didn’t say better. But the difference is remarkable.
I am shocked..
I both Bach Artisan 1C and its feel suprisenly small 🤔feels like schilke 14-14c2
Schilke’s measurements are much bigger on paper than Bach’s. I think that’s in part due to how deep into the cup they measure and also because of the shape of the rim. The location of the high point of the curve in the rim shape can change the feel of a mouthpiece on the lips quite a lot.
If you look at Schilke’s measurements the 14 is a copy of a New York 11/2C
When you are comparing these Bach mouthpieces, which era of Bach manufacturing are you referring to? That is to say, is every Bach 3c or 10 1/2c the same? 😂
This is a good question - something I hinted at in another comment because, as we know, the machining was far from consistent over the years.
These are all scans that have been made by Vennture. Although I can attest that the scans are very very accurate I cannot pretend to know anything about the pieces that were scanned.
IMHO the talking points in the video are still valid however.
Mouthpiece comparator to the rescue!!
Mouthpieces is like never ending sea.
Bach 7B feels diffrent..no sharp edge..
OMG!!!! get to the point
He's a Brit, not an American.