The Unfair Advantage of the F-35
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- Опубліковано 29 гру 2023
- The F-35 has some specific advantages and strong points over the 4th generation and the air defences.
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It still amazes me how many people when trying to dump on the F35 think that 'detecting' it is the same as tracking, locking & creating a targeting solution to it.
Actually, a lot of criticism focuses on the lackluster dogfight capabilities or the idea of the platform serving CAS.
Of course, the very concept of BVR was always about eliminating the need for dogfighting, however in practice this usually didn't (quite) bear out.
This is the moment when some proponent humm and ahh, or start to quite some bullshit statistics how it 'is' a dogfighter.
The honest thing to do would be to instead state the truth:
The F-35 is a BVR centric platform and its entire doctrine should avoid dogfighting as it's not the strength of the platform.
@@Flaser01Except that there is no real evidence it is even a bad dogfighter in the slightest. It has an incredible AOA, and is as maneuverable as an F-16 with even the most basic targeting pods and self defense air to air missiles strapped onto it. The F-16 isn't a slouch in any regard. With a full combat load, the F-35 is more maneuverable than all but a handfull of 4th gen aircraft.
The entire "F-35 is a bad dogfighter" stems from a single report from a decade ago of a mock dog fight between an F-16 and an F-35 test bed that was gimped by G-limiting it, limiting its AOA, and removing its ability to use most of its sensors. Ask any F-16, F-15, or A-10 pilot, and they would take the F-35 over those other 3 jets in a dogfight, BVR, and every other scenario 90% of the time.
For the close air support role, it is pretty much the best on the market. The single most important aspect of CAS is accuracy. EOTS and the AN/APG-81 give it unparalleled accuracy in mapping out the terrain and detecting targets. Lobbing a dirt cheap JDAM from 5-25km away with pin point accuracy at a man sized target is the best form of CAS. Gun runs are extremely risky, and is a death sentence for any aircraft up against a military that is armed with anything larger than AKs. In that event, the F-35 still has the 25mm autocannon.
It also has the stealth capabilities to actually have the chance to perform CAS operations against militaries with air defense weapons in the first place.
@@Flaser01while the F-35 is not made to dogfight, it is still very good at it, real f-35 pilots have talked about hoe maneuverable it is
@@wizardemrys F-35 loses dogfights to F-16s you clown
@@wizardemrys I heard that by the time it gets into a dogfight something already went wrong. Short for "you'll be dead before you get the chance to fire back" 😁
I heard a pilot say detecting the F35 was like trying to hear a pin drop in a room, but once the F15EX is up there with its giant radar blasting, finding the F35 would be like hearing a pin drop at a rock concert.
In other words still impossible.
@@Stinger522 Exactly. They designed the F22 and F35 not to be a lone weapon delivery system but a network of systems working together. This is also the reason why they didn't need the F22 anymore with its excellent dog fighting skill because it will never get into that situation anymore. Thus they are now concentrating on B21. This is coming from one of the F22 engineers that I encountered last year by the way.
@@Stinger522it goes from theoretically possible to basically a joke, but yeah it’s basically impossible in practice to detect it in both circumstances.
@@Stinger522Possible, but possible is a rather meaningless baseline.
It is possible that a gold brick will fall from the sky and land next to your mailbox tonight.... But you shouldn't hold your breath waiting for that brick.
Good one! 👍@@ricomock2
A pilot who flew the F-35 once said that if you detect a F-35, they most likely already finished their objective or you got less than a minute to maneuver out of range from danger because there probably a missile or a bomb coming towards you.
@Zero.... Well said!!
@@jimkluska253 based on Assumptions ...so far US never fought a peer to peer Enemy.
@@Germ4ch ur right,...in fact they fought multiple peers in two separate world wars. All of them had been building for war at least 6 years prior to the beginning of the U.S. involvement. As you might or might not recall,. our military had the unfortunate result of having their spending slashed to well below 1.25% of the gdp. Yet once we got going....the fascists,commies and whatever name works for you,...got their asses kicked!..🤠
@@Germ4ch assumption just shows how stupid most people are.
The US has no peers in the air. People can argue about ground and sea dominance but the skies belong to Uncle Sam.@@Germ4ch
The EW capabilities of the F-35 are probably exceptional in the listening mode. Using the radar for EW jamming is a different story. The Growler can probably push out more wattage in a much wider cone but the F-35 might be able to pinpoint jam a single enemy really well. Who knows. EW systems are super-duper secret but you can estimate things from power generation and cooling capacity and the known features of the antenna arrays.
You are correct, the f-35 has like a 2 degree angle for the specific jamming so it needs to be hyper focused and the growler I believe 40 degree angle
That is as much a function of gain as is power. Gain is antenna dependent, and is also tied to narrow angles of irradiation. Gain also does not generate as much heat as power.
I guess that pinpoint jamming is more aligned to LO warfare, because a single radar not working might be due to equipment malfunction, not necessarily EW.
As soon as the USMC saw what their early Block F-35B & C models were capable of, pilots started treating EA-6B Prowler crews like peers for once, picking their brains, then they retired the EA-6Bs.
Well i would sure fucking hope so considering the growler was developed for EW and not to be a multi role aircraft. That’s like comparing your microwave to your oven. Two completely different things doing completely different things but can still do the same thing just one is more efficient and effective at cooking food faster🤣🤣. Don’t compare a EW aircraft to a fighter/bomber. You wouldn’t compare the bombing role of a F-35 to a growler would you?? No I don’t think you would because it’s not comparable.
@@KUSHxKiNG Yes it is. Because both planes have to get into deployment range of the weapons. And if that range is far, the weapons are probably not carried internally.
M7 has really stepped up the production value of the channel, with new graphics, slicker presentation and a new look to the hair, as well. Which, as usual, is on point. I always come to learn and to be 'infotained,' and am never disappointed. Excellent work, M7.
Yes and it's noticeably more propaganda than info now. Sad.
@@JoanneLeonWho's propaganda is this? I'm genuinely curious😅
What do you expect from a John Lennon after a sex change?
Common sense, Comrade?
@@Taketimeout3 🤣
@@JoanneLeon "anything I don't agree with is propaganda"
Understanding that the F35 can detect passively means that the best way to try to beat them is to have a extremely high power radar to try and see them. They can already see you so you're not giving your position away.
Turns out those radars make for a really nice target, however. So its easier said than done. The original F-15 could also shoot down a satellite, let alone the EX, so not even space can save the radar.
It isn’t just the F-35 that gets criticisms. The F-16 as originally produced got a lot of crap. The biggest complaint being it was a “lawn dart” that killed it’s pilots. Then there’s crashes of the F-104G being a “widow maker”.
In a straight gunfight, I think the F-16 would do a lot better against a F-35 than people think. The fight against an F-22, not so good.
If you do some research on the F-104 accident rate, especially digging into what Kelly Johnson wrote about - most of those were German air force guys, new to jets, flying in the worst weather with a very complex variant. Once they started training in Arizona, their accident rate declined enormously.
@@WhereNerdyisCool …. The Canadian CF-104 had a similar accident rate.
@@WhereNerdyisCool Megaprojects and DarkSkies cover this well in their videos.
@@AndyFromBeavertonmegaprojects or anything related to Simon Whistler is more and more sketchy
That passive targeting is a serious weapon.
French and russians never abandonned the concept even if it was limited by technology, only US did and now they are catching up with systems like PIRATE or OSF
US made IRST and an extensive data-link network standard for the NORAD Interceptors in the late 1950s-1960s decades before the Soviets.
Swedes were the first to copy that approach with their SAAB interceptors.
USN put IRST in the F-8 Crusader as well, then the F-4B and J.
@@LRRPFco52You haven’t actually refuted the point though. Because after the F-4, the US pretty much abandoned IRST till recently. The Soviets had an IRST at around the same time as the USAF (with the MIG-23) began introducing it in the F-106 in the early-mid 60s (Early Model 106 Interceptors didn’t feature IRST). Most of these IRST weren’t very good or viable hence why in the F-14’s case it was abandoned till much later (F-14D variant).
@@princesofthepower3690 F-101B Voodoo, F-102A, and F-106A got IRST along with the SAGE program data-link. MiG-23 didn’t get their weak version of it until the 1970s. MiG-29 and Su-27 IRST are like looking through a soda straw.
Navy F-4s had IRST under the nose. F-4E had TISEO in the wing leading edge. F-14A had a certain number of TCSs per squadron while afloat. F-14D had TCS and IRST.
You should read up on F-106A pilot experiences with that IRST. It was much better than I imagined, and far better than what you’re describing.
F-15 APG-63 was so good out of the gate, they didn’t see a need for it. Wall of Eagles with shared volume and altitude band search was an unfair advantage over anything of its era.
F-15C+ with Legion IRST is the first acknowledged fighter to demonstrate passive detection, tracking, and engagement with BVR missiles against a high speed, highly-maneuverable TGT drone as well.
The US is so far ahead in this space, but just didn’t talk about it for decades.
@@Real_Claudy_FocanWhy do you presume both 1: that passive targeting is limited to IRST only (it isn’t), and 2: that EU systems outperform contemporary American ones? The former is incorrect and the latter is baseless.
I never knew that John Goodman knows so much about F-35's and fighter aircraft!
Excellent video, I am today an RF Engineer and previously I was just a Glorified Grunt which is scary that I actually understand what you omit from this and what the goobermint omits from the public when talking about this kind of critical technology. People used to ask me if I could see F22's in the sky when flying cause they actually thought stealth aircraft are silent and not visible, I used to be sarcastic to them until I figured out they were being serious. I told them to stop believing what Hollywood puts out. I often tell people that nothing in the Military is quiet...not even subs....but those are the most quiet machines in the Military.
The main value of stealth technology is to reduce the effectiveness of the opponent's weapons in BVR and air defense. In particular in BVR fights it gives the F35 with a definite advantage to achieve air superiority.
You miss the entire point of the F-35.
It is a wild weasel.
It's a stealth F-105 Thud.
It's a replacement to the F-16, which had assumed the SEAD mission role in the '90s.
It's job is to fly directly into enemy air defense networks, observe and locate their precise position, relay that information to friendlies. And attack those positions with HARM missiles and precision gravity munitions.
@@jj4791all true, but it's also extremely capable in air to air. It has a radar cross section similar to the F-22's but has a more powerful radar, can track IR signatures at very long ranges with DAS and EOTS, and it has a more powerful EW suite. Wouldn't want to be in an adversary fighter against it
@@yomama629 I didn't know that the APG-81 was more capable than the APG-77(V)1. It makes sense considering the maturity between the new design of the APG-81 vs the 77, which was upgraded to the 77(V)1. 15 years later and the F-35 has a replacement, the APG-85 in the works, but it's interesting that they didn't make a V-designated upgrade
@@yomama629did you even watch the video? He explained early that this is impossible to know for a number of reasons, eg cross section depends from which direction you are looking, all 4++ have advanced AW systems, no military shows of its true capabilities in peace time.
Watch it again and listen this time!
@@OlleSundblad several USAF officials have stated that the F-35 is on par with the F-22 in terms of stealth. As for its EW suite, it's widely considered to be the most powerful ever fitted on a fighter aircraft. There's a reason the F-35 is winning fighter procurement competitions around the world, it does everything better than anything else out there
Just in time, in fact. Been missing some Millennium 7.
In war, the only people who complain about things not being fair is the side who is at a disadvantage.
When the US entered the war the Japanese had an unfair advantage in the Zero. Then the US introduced the Hellcat. The Hellcat had an unfair advantage over the Zero, especially when the Zero pilot believed he was fight a Wildcat.
Thanks! This is very informative and an excellent summary of the F-35 advantages.
You’re one of my favorite UA-cam channels. Thank you 🙏 for all your hard work, I appreciate you.
F-35 conquered my heart sorry f-22 babe you are old😢
Hi from Finland. I am happy that we have chosen F-35 block 4 instead of Gripen.It gives a lot of possibilities at a reasonable price to our AF.
Tl;dr: groups of F-35s can generate active-radar quality firing solutions with only passive radar, enabling them to kill without being detected.
Well done! Good sound quality and it’s very quick, not too many digressions! Also the information density is great!
Thank you for all informative vids in the past 12 months. Wishing you and Otis health and happiness in the coming year! 😀🥳
Canada: “we hate the F35, we will never buy such a troubled airplane. We like what we have.” Canadian email sent through back channels: “we’ll take two squadrons of F35’s.”
The biggest misconception of stealth is that if it doesn't render you invisible then it's useless. Stealth is not invisible, it is low observable. An aircraft that is lower observable than another will always hold an advantage. His detection range will be much shorter. Getting a weapons grade track will be harder. The small radars of guided missiles will have more difficulty tracking. Also countermeasures are much more effective against the reduced reflections of stealth. This is why every country with the means is seeking stealth aircraft. It is and will remain an advantage no matter how good systems get at detecting it. It's the difference between a soldier wearing camouflage versus an orange jumpsuit.
Exactly, even if radars get better at detecting stealth aircraft that only means that non-stealth aircraft will be even more vulnerable. Stealth technology isn't going anywhere
Absolutely packed with information today. Great video!
Btw you look dapper and healthy today! Glad you are doing well 😊
I look forward to seeing more videos from you next year. Happy new year to you & Otis.
Thanks so much! Happy new year. Excellent presentation
Thank you for putting this interesting information together.
Thanks for another interesting piece, here’s wishing you a healthy & prosperous 2024 👍👊
Always informative. Thank you.
Over time the issues are corrected. Previous fighters have had issues that were fixed. Fighters, cars whatever, problems are fixed and improvements are made.
This was a fantastic presentation. Thank you!
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:40 🛩️ *Stealth is a key advantage of the F-35, allowing delayed detection and closer approach to the target, aligning with NATO's emphasis on acquiring air dominance by penetrating contested airspace.*
05:14 🕵️ *F-35's intelligence gathering capabilities are extensive, with electronic sensors and data fusion, but specific details about channels, sensitivity, and processing capacity remain classified.*
06:35 🧠 *Electronic data gathered by F-35, including information on potential opponents' electronic emissions, plays a vital role in planning, adding clarity to the overall intelligence picture.*
16:01 🌐 *F-35's role in network-centric warfare involves producing high-quality data, sharing it through data links, and acting as a force multiplier by enhancing situational awareness for other aircraft, including older generations.*
23:01 🔒 *F-35's ability to passively target with high-quality tracks and triangulate data among multiple aircraft allows it to generate a firing solution without emitting detectable radiation, providing a significant tactical advantage in modern warfare.*
Made with HARPA AI
I have to disagree about stealth being of lesser importance. Even if newer surveillance radars can see the F-35 at reasonable distances, they are also going to see non-LO targets at even further range. More importantly, radar guided antiair missiles use high frequency radars exclusively because of the limited size of the antenna. When you take the already short range of a missile-sized radar, reduce it massively with the F-35's VLO X-band RCS, and then add cooperative ECM and towed decoys on top of that, it will be extremely difficult to hit an F-35 with a radar guided missile, maybe close to impossible with current missiles. Future missile systems might improve PK vs VLO targets somewhat, but that will of course make them even deadlier against non-VLO targets.
An old Syrian SAM damaged an Israeli F35.
Plus, unless the advanced scanner sensors can be produced in large enough numbers, they can be targeted & destroyed before stealth capability is neutralized.
@@ViceCoin Syria CLAIMS they hit the F-35, after Israel reported a bird strike damaged one of their airframes. If an S-300 had detonated near an F-35 with just how complex and fiddly the aircraft is, it likely would not have made it back.
@@anxietygamingactual6554 Israel is invincible, and never reports losses, like the Ukrainians.
The only people claiming stealth has low relevance, are those who are pushing a prior gen platform. If stealth was so pointless, every fighter in development would not be stealth. It’s not invisibility, but like mentioned, gives a massive see first advantage.
Wow! Thanks for clearly describing all those amazing features of the F-35's.
Excellent analysis!
Thank you for another superb video. Cheers from NZ🇳🇿.
Interesting episode, hope you have a fine 2024.
Thanks for posting!
Many thanks
Greqt lecture!
Happy new year M7!
I have always enjoyed your knowledgable explainations.
As a military avionics tech back in the late 1960's the advancement in avionic capability is fascinating.
I agree with your comment at the end of the video the ability of multiple aircraft to share target information acquired passively is a huge advantage.
Very good and accurate technical content in this video!
Love all this and thank you
As always a fantastic video. Also glad to see you looking healthier.
Su 27 is the first plane with passive targeting.
… and I appreciate your information and effort you did for this video!
Great presentation, like the new graphical elements... way to integrate a ton of information yourself Millennium 7, and btw, great to see that you are looking good sir!
So weird that the largest country in the world with such advanced aircraft still doesn't have air superiority against its tiny neighbor who barely has an airforce right?? Hmmm
What does this tell you
Even with air superiority, the collective west could not achieve their objectives in iraq & afghanistan. The latter is back to where it was in 2001. The biggest disadvantage for the west is its inability to accept huge casualties or fight a long war. Against Russia, there will certainly be.
@aananddravid1101 keep telling yourself that. But yes 300k dead to gain 1 kilometer is a bit stupid so good job putin! 👏
Outstanding video!!!
I appreciate your knowledge and also that you are mature enough to admit when there are unknown features / details. Thanks and Cheers from Seattle!
Outstanding and deep analysis! 👍👍👍
F35s advantage is that it doesn't need to reveal itself to kill you. It can get close enough to provide a firing solution to an F22 with over-the-horizon launch capabilities. The F35 guides the F22's missile in and you never saw either of them
love the channel. keep it up.
Love your videos
How m7 isn’t over 1 million subs is beyond me love your work
Excellent video 😍
Stealth aircraft can also be onsite detectors, visually confirming, locating radar signals from sites/bases, etc. and conveying this information to a 2nd strike force or simply already launched guided missiles preprogrammed to hit various locations. Knowing a SAM site, mobile radar detector or such has moved 1 kilometre away from a prior position allows the F-35 to pass this information along and have the sites targetted by incomming missiles or attacks reajusted to the new locations.
Data communications are always an attack surface. They may not be directed at the target during passive tracking but the enemy can have other sensors including satellite based ones to triangulate location and the kinematics of the signal sources. A robust communications signal will withstand jamming efforts but it will also make its detection easier. The purpose of communications is to be heard in the first place which is detection.
Awesome fella as always 👍🙂
16:57 Brazil mentioned boyssss here we go
Happy Holidays Sir. Thank you for another wonderful video. I believe the F-35 is what we paid for, a top notch platform.
Hair is on point today, looking good my man. thanks for the video.
Great video.
amazing information, you got +1 follower from now on
Thanks!
Thank you!
I feel dumb just listening, but still informative and entertaining..... Love IT!
Your contanT is awesome, keepm coming
One has to wonder if the F35 could "spoof" it's real location by re radiating an incoming radar pulse with a delay, perhaps with staggered delay times to confuse the actual range even more.
This is a standard ECM technique in use since the '60s. Random frequency hopping makes it of little use now.
They have been doing that since the 1950s. It's one of the most basic ECM techniques. That's why modern radars are designed to not be fooled by stuff like that, by jumping frequencies very rapidly and random. Radio travels at light speed, and it's impossible for a ECM system to shift instantly to match it. They also code each pulse so the radar knows which one sold be returning. What good does delaying the pulse do if the radar has already jumped frequency by the time the delayed pulse is transmitted, it will know that it's a false signal and ignore it. But as far as it is possible, it's a normal ECM technique so yes, it will have the ability.
@@Millennium7HistoryTech Well, a good ECM can keep up with frequency hopping (usually). But rapidly alternating active & home-on-jam modes make basic ECM more problematic. It's still doable, and is done. The ECCCCCCCC.... M chess game runs quite deep 😉
And in some ways, kinda sticks it's toe across the line into DEW territory.
There is no way for an aircraft to know if they are in the angular center of a radar lobe or 20 db lower power by being on the angular edge of the transmitted lobe or in a low amplitude side lobe. If the aircraft responds with delayed artificial echos, then the amplitude of those artificial echos will give away which part of the lobe they must have received. Multiple radar chirps at slightly different but overlapping directions will allow confirmation of the aircraft’s direction by comparing amplitudes … even if the radar chirp has different frequencies for different angular directions within each lobe. The ecm delayed reflections could be used to help locate the aircraft.
@@douginorlando6260 all very true. Although if there's multiple friendly aircraft in the area, you can figure out some of what you need to know to spoof a return better. And ideally, if you don't have a huge RCS and aren't in immanent fear of detection, you can wait to start jamming to build a better picture of what you're dealing with.
Also, a beam width of only about 2-3 degrees can allow for uh... 'undesirable effects' at longer ranges than is typically an issue for radar emissions. An EA-6 once did a relatively huge amount of property damage by turning the wrong way with the wrong systems turned on.
AN/APG-81, ELINT systems, & Link16/MADL is very central to the F-35's advantages, true.
Need a part II exploring EOTS, HMDS, & HOBS targeting, if you _really_ want to get into how the F-35 uses haxxorz to be unfair to adversarial platforms.
Could even be a part III going into "stuff"... but it would probably be frowned upon by DoD, and I'm not sure how applicable it would be to export variations.
It'd be a devastatingly effective platform, even if you painted it bright orange and covered it in luneberg lenses & road flares. The fact that it has a very small RCS and _reasonably_ minimalistic IR emissions, is just icing, and makes things completely unfair.
PS: The main reason rear-aspect stealth is problematic is 2-fold. The obvious first reason is that a view looking up the tailpipe of a turbojet is going to be unavoidably obvious on IR. But also the RCS suffers, because the turbine at the rear of a jet engine has "needfully specific geometry", spins, and very limited materials options due to heat. So basically inside the exhaust nozzle of a jet is a high-RCS churning reflector. Further, the channel aft of the turbine can't really accept RAM coatings, again due to heat. So stealth-wise, it's a mess. (ergo the really important exhaust design details of the YF-23, B-2, and B-21).
A material from U of NC could help change that in the future though. As well as offer a more durable coating for other areas of an aircraft. And frankly, their announcing it publicly was a massive abuse of DARPA research grant NDA's, and I'm surprised nobody went to jail.
The thing about "stealth detection" is that it has limited range. And a non-stealthy aircraft, viewed from a "stealth detecting radar" could be seen at hundreds of km away, rather than dozens of km away. So "stealth detection" does little to actually make stealth obsolete. On the contrary, it actually makes stealth more direly needed. But IRST systems do put something of a clamp on how much minimizing of detection distance is possible.
love to know weaknesses to this network sharing warfare and reliance on it
Excellent!
Quality analysis, as always. Thankyou.
Great content...
Outstanding content as always.
Thank you so much!
Thank you very much!
@@Millennium7HistoryTech Just wanted to point out that if you find F35 critics "noisy", it's only as a reaction to obnoxious F35 fanbois. These people are insufferable. Right, carry on.
@@adrien5834coming from a f-35 hater I presume?.
@@Red-238 Nah. Not as long as people don't get in my face about it. There's nothing more annoying than 12 year olds copy pasting LockMart's marketing brochures and trying to pass them off as facts.
So good, I literally can't absorb it all. So I'm filing it!
We LIKE your new look :)
Excellent.
You are looking good these days
The absolute best.
Passive tracking actually blew my mind
It will blow some heads, if that means, the Airplane has to point it's nose into the direction, the Target is... As it means getting closer and closer to detection range.
Imo stealth has at least two dimensions which needs to be discussed 1) hard to detect 2) hard to acquire as s400 target
F35 has the remote code activation installed in the export unit.
It is to prevent the aircraft to fall into wrong hands where circumstances such as pilot defecting or the craft were smuggled to the enemy territory.
"F35 has the remote code activation "
That is scary as hell. It says it doesn't trust the pilot and could kill it or use him in a kamikaze mission. Also, it tied the countries that use it to be totally loyal to the US or face the consequences.
No. You became slave. 😋
You reckon that's only in export units?
The US 'Lost' an F35 for a couple of days a couple of months ago.
That’s not necessarily true dawg
@@tsubadaikhan6332mostly because it was to stealthy foe the US to track in the US😅
Look at things as they are not as we want is a priceless niche.
Here's my basic understanding of the Russian and Chinese RF radar developments. These LF radars "detect" the presence of stealth aircraft, not the aircraft itself. These radars require a lot of intersecting support (other radars in chain, in two vectors) in order to be effective. Because it is a "tripwire' system, a response relies on then filling the "target" air space with radar homing missiles, hoping that one will lock-on to a target. That's a lot of radars and missiles, making a lot of targets for ARM's. Geography plays a huge role in the theoretical effectiveness of such a network as well. I believe that until quantum radars can be developed to the point of useful application, stealth will remain a critical capability in combination with other advanced sensor and computing capabilities.
It would require very God cooperation and management. 1huch Russia hasn't really demonstrated with its top down structure.
Aren't you describing sensor fusion capabilities that F35s AN/SPY radars possess as well?
@@accountantthe3394 It is "fused" data in that you're plotting a box rather than an object. Believing that you've plotted the path through successive boxes, you push radar equipped missiles into the anticipated next box, where you hope to pick up an accurate track. If that missile can send data back to the plotting computer, you'll have a weapons grade track for as long as that missile tracks or detonates. All of those radars lighting up are red meat for ARM's. Meaning, that it should be a rapidly degradable defense. Effective in the very short term and more effective where density and geography permit, but rapidly degradable by multiple platforms nonetheless. At least that's my understanding.
What you are describing is just multistatic radars, which have been around a long time. Actually Ukraine was a pioneer in this research 20 years ago with its Kolchuga passive sensor. The thing is we have come a long way since then with related technology that helps a lot, such as networking and computing capability which has enabled things which were impractical or impossible before such as data centric machine learning. Now China and Russia have their own stealth aircraft which helps out A LOT in testing and generating data to train these systems. And no, such networks wouldn't be vulnerable to ARMs (at least not critically), because that's not the way multistatic radars work. You separate the receiver from the transmitter. So you can make lots of "dumb" transmitters on the cheap, because this type of system doesn't depend on structuring the transmission. You'll run out of HARMs WAYYYYY before they run out of transmitters, LOL
It is theoretically possible that a multi-static network of LF radars can craft a firing solution through sensor fusion. Just as he explains at 23:00 that a squadron of F-35s can craft firing solutions by the intersection of TDOA curves, a network of LF radars can process their solutions to craft a more accurate bound. The trouble here is that while TDOA curves lose dimensions with each new solution (e.g. 1 sensor knows a target is on the boundary of a sphere, 2 sensors restrict that to a planar intersection of 2 spheres, 3 sensors to a linear intersection of 3 spheres, 4 sensors to a singular point in space), radars produce a region of uncertainty. With more radars you get the intersections of those regions of uncertainty, but that will always be a bounded volume rather than narrowing down to a point in space. At the end of the day it's all very interesting stuff and we don't know what each side is employing or how well it really works.
It'd be interesting to know if the intensity of fighting in Ukraine has forced the Russians to run their systems in full war mode, giving up secrecy before a possible conflict with NATO. That'd illustrate one of the ways NATO is benefiting from this war. We get to see how they fight. They're only seeing how Ukraine fights with Western hardware, some of it twenty or more years old.
I mean Russia has already had to roll out T-55s to keep up with losses.
At some point we might see an Armata eat a javelin.
@@georgethompson913 T-34's
Wouldnt the same be said for systems like the patriot? Afaik its still used by Nato and is currently being employed and no doubt in "full war mode" 100% of time in Ukraine given russia's tendency to spam missiles at kiev or any random place they choose.
In the end, l think both sides are learning
@@alispeed5095 Russians are learning at best about older Patriot systems donated by Holland & EU Nato nations.
There were some tracking software updates made including the one successfully shooting down Khinzhal hypersonic missiles but Ukraine was donated older Patriots
& I believe the F-16 being donated are Block 30? Maybe as "advanced" as Block 40 but that is exposing to Russia nowhere near the capability of F-16 Block 70
With HIMARS Russia has had decent success learning to disrupt the guided Rocket artillery, fewer now get to target, but virtually no change learning to target HIMARS trucks, zero HIMARS trucks have been destroyed by Russia.
What is probably the moat significant about the SIGINT that NATO gets from Russian EW & GBAD is that minimum 60% of what China
fields is either Russian or copies of Russian EW & GBAD.
Russia knows which systems & modules it has used & given SIGINT to NATO, & a good idea of what systems Ukraine captured & are used by NATO to test real-world combined-arms countermeasures,
but China does not know exactly which of its systems are now likely ineffective from SIGINT & which are outright compromised, because Russia has no interest in telling China.
China's "weather balloon" fiasco, whatever intelligence China could have gotten from that balloon is dwarfed by USA getting this entire EW surveillance package largely intact, including full list of the several critical non-Chinese component suppliers they used.
Not just surveillance data, but metrology, diagnostics, supply chain on the weather balloon is about functionally worthless now.
@@alispeed5095most definitely, I think his point was Russia is using much more of its modern (last 15 years or so) equipment proportional to the modern NATO equipment
Data link is where the F35 really shines. It can operate as a stealth AWACS Platform and command and control node. Plus its fully capable to take out fightes, bombers, or ground targets on a whim. But what its super useful is to get in close, while a bomber launches hundreds of cruise missiles from standoff range. The F35 then guides in the cruise missiles, decoys, and employs electornic warfare to cause haywire. The decoys, cruise missiles, and EW result in a situation where enemy radars will see a whole armada of planes, environmental noise, missiles, etc coming at them at supersonic speeds. If they SAM systems are the latest gen, they might be able to shoot down 25%-50% of the cruise missile swam, but after that its game over. Then the F35 can collect all the EW information during the attack--locations of SAMs, radars, locations of aircraft, locations of ground assets, etc, etc, as well as how effective the last strike was. Then another strike can be launched on the remaining targets now that primary defensive threats were eliminated.
Its a supremely potent aircraft, and it's also pretty cheap all things considered. Cheaper than the F15 was when it was first released by a huge margin when you adjust for inflation. On top of that, F35 can work as an air defender very well. A patriot missile could be fired, guided by the F35 to strike an enemy fighter jet. So even if an enemy aircraft detects the F35, who knows whether a passively radar guided/IR hybrid missile is going to hit you from the sides or behind.
What's funny is no one took the patriot missile system seriously until Ukraine happened and patriots are shooting Russian jets and hypersonic missiles out of the sky as if they were a joke. No one realized that the patriot is actually supremely good, and its a similar situation with the F35. People don't realize how deadly it is until it sees action. My guess is that Chinese aircraft would just start falling out of the sky, confused and panicked, as F35s take them out easily.
It's funny how "cooperative targeting" means something entirely different in civil aviation vs military. In civil, cooperative targeting means cooperating with the target, not other sensors. These are techniques based on transmissions which require interrogating the plane transponder to provide information back to the interrogator (as in ADS-B and MLAT 1090/1030MHz). Any radar techniques are "non-cooperative" because you can gather information without asking the plane to do something. By the way, the slide at 23:15 is not triangulation, it is multilateration (MLAT). If the radars are are using their relative positions and the angular value to the target, that is triangulation. Using time difference of arrival and constructing a solution from 4 isochronous curves is multilateration. Which means the military version of MLAT (a cooperative technique in civil aviation) is actually non-cooperative. Multi-static radars are a similar concept but on the ground rather than in the air.
Common sense say that all information of these weapons will not be available leaving room for conjectures. Common sense says too that operability should not be disclosed to the public for obvious reasons. The US military must always keep secret not only the information of the craft but how this craft works in combination with other equipments. This video gives the right mindset on how the military mind works without giving secrets away. The military works strictly with facts, discipline and secrecy. The F-35 is an example of such discipline efficiency and resilience. Great content for the layman, tyvm.
Well when your government been bribed or blackmailed it makes getting information pretty easy.
Secrecy?
😂😂😂 Lol !
Ever heard the name : CHINA ?
We don't fight fair. We win
Your videos are technically amazing! They just show that you know what you are talking about. I can't figure out what is your background ... I hesitate between engineer in tha aerospace industry or high level teacher in physics
Unfair advantage?
That is what you have over most, nay almost all, other youtubers.
Your presentation, your eloquence, your insight and your humour.
Actually thats four.
Oh, nearly forgot Otis!
Keep up doing what you do. 😊
Gotta respect the F35
Excellent episode - taking the "hype", the "misinformation" and the deliberate efforts to talk-down, what's known is give actual pilots a choice of what they would go to War in, it's a four-ship of F35 everytime.
Great video M7! Thanks to your presentation, I now better understand this topic. I also want to comment on the actual presentation graphics, charts and etc. I have enjoyed watching you and your channel grow. I think you had about 22,000 subscribers when YT recommended your channel. I subbed immediately. By the way, you are looking more svelte with every video.
Very cool
obligatory thumbs up. will watch asap
People I hear who critisize it simply do NOT understand the real strengths of this craft. They may be able to identify the terms, but they don't understand the concepts
I wonder if air defence systems can work as an array sharing data and triangulating targets from emissions like electronic jamming?
read...
Geoengineered Transhumanism: How the Environment Has Been Weaponized by Chemicals, Electromagnetics, & Nanotechnology for Synthetic Biology
Yes it does. Russia has proven rhat
@@marsmotionthank you for the heads up.
Data links and triangulation are key parts of an Integrated Air Defence System (IADS). Without it, they're not really integrated
The problem for land-based IADS sensors is the curvature of the Earth. You don't have LoS over the horizon, so you see more Russian and Chinese antennae being lifted up to slightly increase the LoS range, which makes them more cumbersome and vulnerable for targeting.
If they try to use localized AWACS and comms node aircraft to deal with the earth's curvature, those aircraft are extremely vulnerable.
The US moved away from AWACS-based nodal connectivity with ATF and JSF by using an airborne and spaceborne mesh approach.
Every JSF is a node, as are all combat aircraft with sensors and data-links.
Since we're going to a VLO airframe force structure, it makes the problems that much more unsolvable for the targeted force.
Could you do a video about FCAS and GCAP program. It was really interesting with the mbda version of loyal wing-man program since it seems that those programs are more focused on cheaper more numerous drones being carried by the airbus400m as carriers in comparison the boeing with one large wing-man. Though at the same time the dassault neuron seems to be still in active development to as a alternative loyal wing-man option do not know that much about the barricuda drone though since I think it got canceled like the taranis.
Excuse me, but when you say Network-centric warfare was pioneered by US Department of Defence in the 1990s, the Swedish armed forces already had integrated almost all air, sea, and land forces in their STRIL 80 and other systems joining in later in the 1980s. I could sit in the CIC of our corvettes and get all data from land radar, helicopter radar, combat aircraft 37 radar (SAAB 37 Viggen), or other sources like ship radar via datalink and entirely passively, without using our own radar suite, track an incoming surface or air raid and plot them and decide when and where exactly to strike with not only my own shipboard arsenal but coordinate a joint strike with ALL units participating in fending off an attack, thus saturate the air defenses of the hostile units approaching the Swedish coast.
True, but as a concept with that name it was popularised in the US
@@Millennium7HistoryTech as always the US is leading the way in acronym warfare
Sweden always punches above their weight.
The US military branches were feuding in that era. And it makes sense that they failed to keep pace with a free and technologically advanced country with a tighter knit society who had a singular goal: defending against imminent invasion by a perceived superior foe.
@@verdebusterAP whatever it was called, I could get Radar from the Navy's HKP4 and other ships as well as exchange data with the "heavy attack" or the nickname they used to have "ÖB's hammer" (although it started to look like a wall paper mallet with the new AA defence on the Sovremenny, Krivak and other newer Russian warships).
We were all connected via data link.
@@verdebusterAP yes, sure, but I just talked of my experience in the Navy.
We used to go totally silent and just rely on external data link feed from another ship lying behind an island or a helicopter going intermittently up to do a couple of sweeps and then hit the deck again.
Enough for us to plot our RB15 missiles.
question: can the F-35 interpret the radar returns generated by an AWACS, i.e. beyond the range of the AWACS
I don't think so
why not? would that not be very useful? @@Millennium7HistoryTech