Excellent, civil, biblical conversation between two great men of God! Loved both their passion and knowledge of scripture! Again, awesome video...and I can't wait to see Part II!
This type of thing needs to happen far more in the "black church" . There is often WAY too much focus on emotion and self help not enough on what the Bible actually teaches , theology and doctrine. Great video guys.
The predestination discussion was very informative. I was able to appreciate Pastor Price's honesty where he allowed himself to be vulnerable and say what he did @ 1:27:15 - 1:30:10. Man, I hope Pastor Price Jr. is still humble like he was in that segment! I pray more of us (including myself) would be as Price Jr. was when in company of someone who has more understanding and wisdom; to humble ourselves and express our difficulty in grasping a concept instead of arguing on a cracking foundation. Amen. Praise God for this meeting 10 years ago!
I just recently interviewed Fred Price Jr. and upon watching this video again I realized that there was some ambiguity about what Creflo Dollar said. He wasn't saying that Jesus isn't God. He was trying to explain the doctrine of kenosis, that Jesus willingly took upon Himself human limitations and ministered by the power of the Holy Spirit rather than by His own inherent deity. This doesn't change His divine essence. It only addresses the temporary deactivation of Jesus' divine abilities.
Pastor Woods, I thank God for you. You were both loving and firm. I pray for these brothers and it is my hope that the Gospel will be preached on the WOF churches with power to save sinners.
Man this is good!!!! Dang near better than any sermon I've heard. Awesome theological conversation & examination of scripture. God is unrestricted, unlimited, unconditional, boundless, self-determining, dominant & pre-dominant. He doesn't have to give us a rhyme or reason to why he does what he does; blessing or curses, healing or no healing, deliverance or no deliverance. But in His sovereignty & omniscient nature He, and only He knows what He's doing & what His ultimate plan is.
King CJ Well said! Consider Is 46: 9-10 "I am God there is no other, I am God there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning; From ancient days things not yet done; saying, 'My counsel shall stand' and 'I will accomplish all my purpose." Also Ps 115:3 "Our God is in the heavens; he does all he pleases." (ESV) Excellent debate -- Pastor Fred Price probably would be helped by a lesson in church history.
I agree....this is awesome that they are studying together, but in love.....no competitive undertone....they walked away from this as brothers, not enemies......Thats the difference...
WOW , Sorry " King Y " , but your statement is Not Scripturally Based , we are COMMANDED , to Know , what GOD'S Will is , in Scripture . If we are " Basically Clueless " ( LOL ) How can we Act in True Faith , when we don't Know , what His Will is ??? Please , check out this Scripture , and pray to receive GOD'S , ( Promised ! ) ( Holy ) " Spirit of WISDOM and REVELATION " ( see Ephesians 1 verses 13 to 20 ) Life Changing Scriptures ! Carefully read PROVERBS Chapters 1 and 2 , and see the MANY Blessings , HE has provided , to the Diligent , Believing , Faithful , Obedient , seeker of God !
@@GodsDutchUncle Deut 29;29 There are God's secret things that we CAN'T KNOW,.HIS LAW S are things He tells us to follow.We can only know how things OUGHT to be,not what God has actually decreed to happen.
Excellent example of what a Christ-centered debate should look like. Bro. Saiko Woods did a stellar job of presenting the Reformed understanding of Scripture. At the same time, I have to commend Bro. Price's humility. He's genuine and I have the utmost respect for his Christlike attitude. I am out of the "Pentecostal" (quasi Word of Faith) camp, studied the Word deeply, and am now absolutely Reformed.
I applaud these gentlemen, and they did conducted themselves as such. However, they have shown that God will do whatever He wants, that being the case, in whatever He wants we must remain in faith towards Him, whether for healing or any otherwise…great discussion we need more of this in a more open transparent forum…thanks men of God.
With true gratitude, I want to commend Saiko Woods for honoring God and being the hand of God that reaches for F Price Jr. This is, surprisingly, the first I've heard Woods - Glory be to God! There is no greater actualization than when the uncaused First Cause of the universe implements someone in His good pleasure (for those Christians who dispute/question, this is simply quoting the Bible)!
This is excellent! What it shows is that we need to understand God more because it’s having the Mind of God that shuts the mouths of humans....we all need to submit more to God to manifest His intelligence! I love it guys... keep them coming!
You brothers did well defending & defining your positions. As iron sharpens iron I believe Pastor Price will benefit moreso. He showed a degree of humility and a willingness to examine the evidence of Scripture. Pastor Woods was sound, patient, and caring toward his brother in the Lord. Of course, if someone asked me why do I have insurance or go visit a doctor, I would quote the Scripture, "Those that are sick are in need of a physician." This was surprisingly delightful and I remained engaged.
Peace, brothers and sisters from the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I praise the God of Truth for this historical exchange. The Lord is using both of you to help me understand how to glorify the Father through specific customs and traditions. Two brothers in Christ can have differing views and still remain in His love. I was reformed before I knew what reformed was. In one of the loneliness times of my walk with Christ I listened to Brother Paul Washer's message titled The True Gospel of Jesus Christ and I almost didn't want to listen to anyone else. However, I believe the Holy Spirit guided me to a Word of Faith congregation within the last year. I fellowshipped with Him through God's people who believed in exercising different gifts. Now, this was the challenge... as I joined this congregation, when I had questions about some of it, I was not given a biblical answer. Most of it went "unexamined" (contrary to 2 Corinthians 13:5). I became frustrated and began to question if these were even God's people. And it is TRULY awe-inspiring how MERCIFUL the Lord is. Not only did the Holy Spirit show me that this congregation was His, He also sent another brother with a more reformed view to the church to help me. This is what I am trying to say... the Lord does not judge us based on whether or not we get the doctrine right (even though it is IMPORTANT), He judges us by how we LOVE! If you love your camp's doctrine more than you love your brother/sister in Christ, you are in danger because this is not about WHAT is true but WHO is the TRUTH! Amen? I thank our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for you brothers! Shalom!
Great dialogue. One of the things I appreciated the most was that when they went to scripture, they made sure to read the scripture fully in context and not just pulling out a verse by itself.
There are many things that I agree with that Pastor Saiko said and many things that I agree with that Pastor Price said. I think that's the beauty of this video. More Christians (especially ministers) should have the spiritual maturity to have candid discussions like this and then put things aside for the sake of the Gospel! Praise God for these brothers. This is what Christ is all about! Not arguing! Not Hating! Loving discussions and the ability to move forward IN CHRIST! -Chic.
I think Fred price jr. is a gentleman and has the proper Godly attitude as far as all the tough issues those are hard things of God ...God bless you both...
In just a few correspondences/dialogues, I have learned not to even be involved in UA-cam comments, but this is something that irresistibly compels a response. In only the first 20 minutes that I've seen has brought me to tears. 4 Price 2 even be sitting in this dialogue is encouraging and indicates that he is interested in truth even if it contradicts his views. Years earlier, as a new Christian, I embraced Dollar and Jakes (been 2 both churches twice and I live in Georgia) - (cont. above)
In an effort of full disclosure, I have only watched 1 hour of this video but will try to watch it later along with part 2. I think the concept of this is great if the purpose is to have a dialogue where there are some conclusions drawn in the end. Ultimately, my faith and belief in my current approach to understanding God has not changed as a result of this video. I had a real problem getting through this video. I think this should be done again with the following structure: Step 1 - Set up the topics: a. 5 core beliefs for Calvinist are selected by the Word of Faith Camp. b. 5 core beliefs of The Word of Faith Doctrine are selected by the Calvinist Camp. Step 2 - Each side gets time to state their position on ONE of the five core beliefs and the scriptural support and, if so desired, the theological, academic, literary, and/or other support to substantiation their position. Step 3 - The opposing side then gets an opportunity to counter or agree with the other side’s position and support. Step 4 - The speaker that initially began then gets an opportunity to counter the counter arguments and support. Step 5 - A conclusion is then reached and stated by the moderator or it is agreed that no mutual agreement can be reach. Step 6 - Move on to the next topic until all five beliefs have been discussed. Optional Step 7 - Have this done with an audience and have a Q&A session where people can ask questions to the proponents of either camp.
im young (23) and reformed ....the Pentecostals prey on gullible women...so glad I found a theology that brings my identity in Christ into the right light
My dad was a pastor when i was growing up. I never heard of Calvin or reformation. I didnt discover until Summer of 2014. Now I feel its the correct reading of the Bible even though my dad disagrees.
1. I have a newfound respect for Fred Price Jr. for agreeing to this discussion. He's famous, Woods isn't. He had everything to lose and nothing to really gain. I commend him for that. 2. People say you can't discuss politics and religion. thats a myth! I know that by open communication IN A RESPECTFUL WAY we can get to the bottom of a lot of our differences. 3) Woods won, hands down. However, they were just jumping from scripture to scripture at various points in the discussion. Personally, I would have hammered Price on some of his misconceptions before allowing him to leave one topic and go to another. All in all, great video.
Woods defense of his stance was stronger and more convincing. that determines who actually wins a debate....who makes the stronger argument. But overall THEY BOTH win for demonstrating that we CAN discuss these differences, and We CAN get a little "spirited", but WE DONT have to divide over them.
I came from a WoF background and have since read my Bible and saw with my own eyes the errors within the WoF doctrines. I have since shifted over to the Reformed "camp". But it was refreshing to see to men discussing their differences regarding was scripture says in a civil manner.
I've heard Fred's dad say if you are in a wheelchair or sick God can't use you,you don't have enough faith.So I'm glad you brought the whole healing thing up.
Good discussion pastor Saiko. The reformed position makes much more sense. First, scripturally. Second, what we see in the body of Christ as far as some believers being healed, and others who have been life long devoted followers of Christ who don't get healed. God is sovereign and in control, not us.
djvdiddy people not getting healed is not a reflection of God’s will, just as people not getting saved isn’t a reflection of God’s will. People fail to receive healing because of unbelief, not God’s will.
When I watched this video I did not know any of these pastors or what they are about but thank you pastor Price I got a lot of clarity about faith, you really nailed it, I don't know why Woods would want to cause people not to have faith, saying you don't want to give people false assurance it's like just quenching people's fire instead of igniting the fire . How can they hear without a preacher, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, pastors are there to stir up our faith for us to see the word of God come to pass in our lives that's how we get edified. i'm not gonna go to a church where someone is gonna tell me, you not healed because it is not God's will i want to be kept in faith until I see the results. 'He marveled at their unbelieve" unbelieve attributed to what God couldn't do in certain people's lives, do you believe i'm able to do this?' "your faith has made you well" "according to your faith" 'without faith it impossible to please him' "I do believe, help my unbelieve" this statement shows he had doubt but he wanted God to remove his doubt so that it wont hinder God moving in his life. our faith has a big part in our well being and Pastor Price you have proven it. Not everything that is happening in our lives is God's will, God did not ordain satan, for by man sin entered the world that is clearly not God's will, the bible says God gave us the power to choose, just like you say the word bible is not in the bible, the word rapture is not in the bible, the word trinity is not in the bible same way the word freewill is not in the bible but we all know God gave man freewill, we are not puppets that God just controls same way those who reject the gospel can not say i'm in hell because God didn't call/choose me. And pastor Price you nailed the part about God giving us authority God brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name it shows the power we have so call things that are not to existence . Pastor Woods sounds funny when he says all doesn't mean all he is not making sense at allllll.
Mpho Machialwe Thank you for your comment. I'm sure if you and I had a conversation and I were able to clarify and unpack my position with you through the Scriptures, you would better understand my view. How'd you hear about the video? Did you watch both parts yet? Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Saiko Woods I was having a debate with a brother in Christ yesterday in my WhatsApp group and he holds the same sentiments as you, so someone told me that he is a reformed Christian since it was my first time hearing about that I decided to do research and I came across your video. honestly I never knew there was this division in the church body of Christ. I would like to hear more of your views I have a a WhatsApp group of fellower believers that you can join the link just to shed light on the topic then you can exit if you so wish. Follow this link to join my WhatsApp group: chat.whatsapp.com/9nut1Fkp8Nv8GgXffmVRov
I am a graduate of the Pastoral program of Rhema Bible Training Center in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, the Bible school founded and run by Kenneth E. Hagin ministries. I, personally, sat under the direct teaching of Kenneth E. Hagin and all of the Hagins who taught at the school, as well as many of the Word of Faith teachers mentioned in this discussion. I spent 17 years of my life as a Christian believer in the Charismatic / Word of Faith movement. I left that movement in frustration and disgust about 10 years ago. Let me say that I was saved before I encountered charismatic doctrine, and I never doubted that I was a Christian or was saved during the entire time I was a part of the movement. In fact, I believe God has confirmed His presence in my life on a regular basis from the moment I was first saved until now. I will not claim that Charismatics / Word of Faith believers are not Bible believing Christians. Some of the most devoted and passionate Christians I have ever encountered were in the Charismatic movement. I do believe that Charismatics suffer in this life, and their faith in Jesus Christ is regularly and unnecessarily challenged, because of a lack of knowledge. They are, as I was, deceived by faulty doctrine. Are these issues that affect the Gospel? I believe they are. I could tell story after story of new believers who were crushed when they "stepped out in faith" as they were taught, and the teachings didn't work in their lives. I believe the mission of the Church is discredited when those following the teachings of Word of Faith make commitments to others based on the things they are taught and they are not able to fulfill their commitments because the teachings failed. If Word of Faith teachings are true, they should lead to wiping out poverty from our midst. They should work as well in the Middle East and China as they supposedly work in the US. Word of Faith teachers and preachers should be spending every available hour teaching and preaching in hospitals and healing those who are sick and lame. Unfortunately, there is a key ingredient, I believe, that is missing from Word of Faith teaching. That key is SOVEREIGNTY. When one is not healed, it isn't necessarily because the believer lacks faith. If one does not become rich, it is not a sign of immaturity as a believer. When one succumbs to disease and dies, it is not because they couldn't properly grasp spiritual truths. When one's prayers are not answered, it is because of the simple truth that God is SOVEREIGN! In my final year in the movement, the Holy Spirit began to point out this truth over and over in my life. I came to realize that, while every Word of Faith believer claimed they believed that God was sovereign, I had never once heard a teaching or sermon that went into any detail regarding it. The simple matter is this: If God is truly sovereign, Word of Faith teaching can't work! In my walk with Christ, I have found one thing to be true over and over and over again. When one comes to a clear understanding of what the Bible really says, a new level of freedom in Christ is revealed. When I finally realized that the doctrine I'd embraced was wrong, and I walked away, chains for which I wasn't even aware began to fall away. I discovered a freedom that was beyond what I could have ever imagined. I do not know whether Word of Faith leaders are even aware of their error. I don't assume they are willfully usurping the faith and abusing their followers. Some may well be doing just that, but I assume the majority are not. They may be as deluded as I once was and simply trying to do what they believe is right. I walked away from Word of Faith. I did not walk away from Christ. I believe my departure was orchestrated by God, and at the same time, I realize He is the same God who allowed me to walk in that error for nearly two decades. I have a closer walk with Jesus now than I did before. And my heart breaks for those who continue in the bondage of Word of Faith beliefs. I pray daily for opportunities to minister to such believers who are questioning their Word of Faith beliefs and, as a result, their very faith in Christ. I am encouraged by this video and by the opportunity for a conversation to take place on this level. Thank you, Pastor Woods and Pastor Price, for being humble and willing to speak openly, candidly and in Christian love about the differences in your beliefs. I pray that through your efforts, the Holy Spirit will reveal greater truth for both sides of the debate.
+John Batts Praise The LORD my brother for HIM bringing you out of that false teaching. Let me first start by saying that I too was mixing error with Truth of GOD'S WORD. Meaning, I was Born Again and I began to read/study GOD'S WORD. And by loving The LORD, I began to watch hours upon hours, days after days of TBN and The Word network. Of course I would question 'many' of the pastors that these stations allowed to preach The Gospel. And I would buy the disclaimer (lies) that TBN would always use about not agreeing with everyone who you see on their channel. But this puzzled me to no end. Why would you even allow these heretical teachers on the air in the first place? But being a babe in CHRIST, I overlooked that minor detail (so I thought). Any way, as The LORD was dealing with me (because I studied), I began to fill uneasy in my soul. And then I discovered many messages that these people were delivering. The first horror I discovered was Kenneth Copeland. Granted, I didn't watch this guy all the time (only here and there), but I followed his so called spiritual son (yea right), Creflo Dollar. And friend, I heard heresy after heresy (damnable heresies) from 'all' of these wolves. I was ashamed and angry at myself for not even seeing or knowing that I was following ministers of satan! My favorite pastor was TD Jakes. Oh how The LORD delivered my soul. And friend, this is where I can understand your testimony. Although I wasn't brought up under those satanic teachings, I fell for them. But I believe GOD brings 'all' of those who 'truly' seek HIM out from false teachings. True Believers will be led by The HOLY SPIRIT into 'all' Truth. Now it was harder for my wife because, sad to say, she doesn't study as we're told to do. She relies on me. So when I informed her that her so called pastors, Joyce Meyer (her favorite) and Joel Osteen were demonic, she didn't believe me. But again, GOD is wonderful. Audio was made available of Joyce speaking doctrine of devils, and I played it for my wife. This was hard for her because she had books and cd's and dvd's of this woman's venomous teachings. But none the less, she believes what the Scriptures say and thew all that filth away. (cont.)
(cont.) And around the same time, a video was made about our boy Joel and his demonic beliefs mixed in with 'some' Truth to present it as Christianity. I showed it to my wife and she begin to say, who can we trust? My answer to her was, GOD and HIS HOLY WORD. Again my friend, if I hadn't searched the Scriptures for myself and continued to read/study, rightly dividing the Word of Truth, we would still be in error. Now to what I wanted to really say. Those who are under that false teaching are 'not' in the Family of GOD. The Bible clearly says: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables" (2 Timothy 4:3,4)... But what does GOD tell us to do? Repent and come 'out' of that mess: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me" (Revelation 3:19,20)... So then, the point being, the word of faith movement is leading countless souls to an Eternal Wrath! Again we are told: "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen" (2 Peter 3:18)... And we can't grow if we don't spend time in HIS WORD. "Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15)... Sadly, many in that belief (doctrine) are not even reading the Bible for themselves. And countless others don't have The HOLY SPIRIT. But for those who do, they will be led 'out' of that demonic teaching and into the 'True' understanding of Scriptures. So once again I thank The LORD for delivering your soul. I hope to see you in the clouds my friend. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)...
"Now to what I wanted to really say. Those who are under that false teaching are 'not' in the Family of GOD. The Bible clearly says: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables" (2 Timothy 4:3,4)... " Frankly, I find this offensive. Who are you to say that those under false teaching are NOT in the family of God? As far as I can tell, it is seldom that even two Christians believe in exactly the same thing on every issue. We all walk in a certain amount of error. Simply because one walks in error, that does not mean they will "not endure sound doctrine." I doesn't mean they aren't seeking God with all their heart. It may simply mean that the error in doctrine hasn't yet been exposed, and they have not yet been taught sound doctrine. I was one of many in the Charismatic movement who sought God daily. I spent countless hours studying the Scriptures, praying, praising, seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I enjoyed the blessings of God. I am certain I never would have questioned the doctrines I had embraced had it not been for the leading of the Holy Spirit. How would I get that leading if I wasn't part of the "family of God?" If it was absolutely necessary that I reject that teaching in order to be saved, why didn't the Holy Spirit convict me of the error earlier? If it is absolutely necessary that everybody who wants to be a part of the "family of God" not walk in error, why do Christians disagree on anything? Why are there so many divisions among us? Why hasn't the Holy Spirit convicted all of us on all error and, in doing so, eliminated all division? I love Word of Faith followers. I know they love Jesus, but my heart breaks for them because I know the error they walk in causes them to suffer and not fully understand the freedom of Christ. I really don't think it's your place to sit in judgment as to whether God accepts them or not. That is way above your pay grade, brother!
John Batts Friend, I 'truly' didn't mean to upset nor offend you. That was 'not' my intention. But I must correct you, in Love. I clearly said that those who have The HOLY GHOST will be led to The 'Truth'. Quote: "But I believe GOD brings 'all' of those who 'truly' seek HIM out from false teachings. True Believers will be led by The HOLY SPIRIT into 'all' Truth"... This is what happened to and for you and I (plus countless others). GOD brought us from 'heresy' to HIS TRUTH. And yes John, word of faith is 'heretical' in their understanding of the Scriptures. The Bible says: "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privately shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their shameful ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with false words exploit you: whose judgment of old now lingers not, and their destruction slumbers not" (2 Peter 2:1-3)... Let me give you an example. The teaching of this movement says that GOD wants us to be wealthy in this world and have a nice home (and or homes), drive the best cars and have an abundant life (material) while on Earth. But what does the Scriptures say? "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust does corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust does corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Matthew 6:19-21)... cont.
John Batts (cont.) Did you catch that? And the icing is verse 21 which says Where your treasure is, is where your 'heart' is... That's powerful and damning for this movement. These types of Christians are called carnal minded. They are set on Earthly possessions and not Heavenly rewards. Again we read: "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:5-8)... Friend, again this is damning to this heretical movement. And there's more: "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides forever" (1 John 2:15-17)... Do you see that? The word of faith teachings are 'contrary' to the Scriptures. And John, being in heresy is being in the flesh, and the Bible says: (cont.)
This has got to be one of the most BEST discussions in ALL Christiandom. Too bad many folks wont bother to watch this. I was a former Word of Faith. Now I am just a Biblicist. I just teach what it says, and leave personal and demonenational theology in the trash.
I love this discussion, but then again I question some of the conversation. And I also am glad that Pastor Saiko Woods puts it out that T.D. Jakes does not believe in the Trinity!
Brother Woods, I appreciate your attempt to confront gross error in peace and love and this is truly historic in that WOF and reformed theologians do not commonly meet for a friendly debate and this may be a great foundation for others to debate biblical truth. As tough as it is to school an Arminian Pentecostal Dispensationalist on sound teaching you took to task and I praise God for your effort. These are the last days and I pray that WOF is confronted and unmasked and that many repent
Dan Morgan - Thanks for the advice, but I believe I come from a place of fact instead of fallacy when I say the NC Movement is emergent and not something Calvinists like myself need to attach ourselves to. Classic Calvinism isn't broken, therefore it doesn't need to be fixed.
Great is the mystery of Godliness. I have a problem with hard wiring definitions like trinity. I think that revelation is progressive. If someone said one divided by two is impossible and someone else said one divided by two is half. Both are right, it depends on where u r in learning. Its matter of perspective.
The NC movement has its difficulties, but it is decidedly NOT emergent! It is doctrinally heavy, whereas one of the defining characteristics of the emergent church is a rejection of meta-narratives and truth claims....
Pastor Woods I was quite impressed with how you biblically supported your beliefs. I was a strong follower of WOF/Charasmatic but over the past few years have seen some of the things taught and practiced by WOF/Charasmatic goes way beyond scripture.
If there had not been a fall, would we know of the glory of God, as it pertains to His great mercy? So hence, what seems terrible to us at times, is in fact something to reveal the glory of God, whether in mercy, love, or judgement and wrath.
And you're defining me being "puffed up" as what? I don't recall ever saying I can't be wrong about anything. If I am or you believe I am wrong about this issue, please feel free to share your disagreement with me biblically. If you like, you can even email your concerns to me. saikowoods@yahoo.com
Michael Norman I'm sure he didn't. I try to respond to most of the comments I get when I have time. Hopefully Terry will explain how I'm being puffed up. I'm sure if I was the Spirit of God would've shown me my sin.
Yes Sir; You Are Right, They Would Say Different, Because NO One Goes Against Themselves; Hence Two Will Be Able To Walk Because They Both Agree. And May You Be Blessed And May The Wisdom Of The Almighty God, Creator Of Heaven And Earth Direct Your Path.
I praise God for these two brothers.A blessing to see you guys wrestle over the scriptures. .Another reminder that finite man needs to humbly handle the text of the infinite God. I love both of your logic about the health/life insurance. You are both right if you approach the scriptures logically. btw, the easy answer for both of you is God uses means. They that are sick NEED a physician! Doesn't contradict God's Word. Same Bible says he could do NO MIRACLES because of their UNBELIEF!
My opinion: Price is displaying lots of humility and Woods is displaying lots of sarcasm and arrogance. To me, they're evidently not having the same attitude, they're not united in the vision for the video. ...at least, that's not what I feel by watching the video....
Great discussion. Much of what you both said was true. As a spectator I could see where you both were having difficulty with one anothers logical conclusions. I am glad the Bible is a living and breathing book. Keep contending for the faith!
Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Romans 9:11-15 (KJV) 22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. 23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.1 Tim 5:21-23 I must admit these scriptures are enough for me.. I Love both of these brothers for willingness to search for the truth
J Hardin - I've been a Pastor for 8yrs, I'm the Pastor of His Word His Way Fellowship Church in Sugar Land Texas. I attended College of Biblical Studies in Houston. I have not attained a theological degree due to financial constraints imposed by God's sovereign purpose and plan to keep me from being proud (1 Cor 8:1; 2 Cor 12:7). In retrospect, I thank God for what He's done in my life and ministry.
I luv this new comment board system :) no more a22inine trolls ~ posting argumentative comment(s) w/ blantant obnoxious stupidity :) as 4 Fred & the scripturally-weak ~ argumentative religio-fake/trolls roaming about defending Fred's excess ~ 1 Tim 6:5 + ; Proverbs 28:6
***** ~ Hey bck ~ just a liberty ~ checking out this new Google++ feature :) & it seems Google ++ now deems our comment(s) as private discussion boards rather than comment targets for trolls :) I believe Ytube forgot the block option though :(
Honestly speaking,God uses the reading the minor and major prophets not just picking verses out (i.e. Jeremiah, Isaiah, Amos and Nahum) to free me from Me centered theology. Also as a "member" of the reformed camp, we really have to pray for humility because we can really look and sound haughty at times. This is awesome and a God sent.
I recommend listening to Pastor Voddie Baucham to understand more about the things discussed in this video. He is an awesome teacher and makes it understandable. God bless these two Pastors for taking time to make this video! I learned a lot from it!
We know that Paul suffered during his ministry and God chose not to hear him. Would we say it was because of Paul's faith that he was never healed. Not hardly.
Pat Casey read the passage about Paul. His weakness was a messenger of Satan sent to torment him, NOT an illness. It says plain as day right there in the passage what was ailing him.
discussion like this really opens eyes as far as possible interpretations...and it's good that two leaders take the time to put together something like this so those who out in congregations at each other's necks can see how things are supposed to be handled and settled.
Why are you (Pastor Woods ) so concern with the teachings of Word of Faith??? If they are in error or teaching a false doctrine , let God handle that. He has not called you to be the police of the church . If I were Fred Price Jr. I would not have wasted one minute with you.
I want to thank both of you brothers for this lively, loving, and iron sharpening iron discussion. This was a outstanding example of brothers having difficult discussions in a Christ-like manner. My hat is off to you brothers. I'm in the Reformed camp, but love the Spirit displayed by both of you!!!
watching this debate as I type and as a believer that is also reformed in theology, I thank God for this in so many ways. This is how men are to discuss important matters.
Excellent Saiko!!! God-centered( Woods) vs Man-centered ( Price jr.) view of scripture. Reformers view scripture from the top down instead of the bottom up. A man-centered view of scripture never sees man for whom he really is and God for whom he TRULY is.This is clearly evident in Price Jr. For Price jr. the Potter is subject to the clay. The clay can challenge the Potter and say "why have you made me this way". Brother Price study the big three of God: Holiness, Sovereignty, and Providence.
Wow, if only more leaders in the Christian faith would have civil discussions about differences in doctrine like you two gentlemen...thanks so much for (both of you) having the courage to share this frank exchange online...
I agree with you regarding the WOF doctrine & where it originated. No argument from me on that point at all. But I can say that Fred Jr. doesn't hold to the "little gods" doctrine, Jesus being tormented in hell, God needing man's permission and other issues that he's been accused of. What I've learned in my interaction with Fred Jr is that EVERYONE can't be lumped as unsaved or heretics. Even those who are WOF. We must be willing to converse and be humble if we want to see God work.
You are absolutely correct pastor Saiko. I made some research, and it s indeed a greeting. People have been lied to. This quote has been taken out of context. May God bless you brother.
Blessed time together. Thank you both for being an example of Christ's love and "making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit" - the unity that already exist for all who are "in Christ". Keep it up.
RIGHT ON GUYS THANK YOU!!!!!!!! You WOF believers start running from from these churches. The WOF leaders are rich from your money!!!!!!!!!!!! Give your money to the poor!!!!!!!!!!
I myself was previously a die hard word of faith follower. I recently left the entire movement after looking at their doctrines from a biblical standpoint. Thanks for this video. I am currently seeking other reformers from my area, but again thanks for this video!
Praise God! Check out www.9marks.org and click "church search" or Google "Expository churches in (city/state). You should be able to find some churches in your area. God bless.
I applaud these two gents for discussing theological issues as brothers with respect and love. I have huge respect for Fred Price Jr in this video, the only WoF pastor to dialogue with a reformer without being condescending. I've stopped listening to WoF preachers because of proof texting of scripture. No egos just brothers discussing theology.
Saiko, good discussion. As a "historic" classical Pentecostal with the Assemblies of God, I affirm the Five Solas of the Reformation. I believe that an ignorance of the Five Solas can lead to heretical theology. When Pentecostals with an anti-intellectual bent reject historic theology and don't study it, then this leads to the craziness of the Word-Faith prosperity camp. I can agree with many in the Reformed camp on divine sovereignty, although I'm Arminian over Calvinist, who sees merits in it.
Excellent Pastor Saiko - I really enjoyed watching and listening to that entire discussion you had with Fred Price, Jr. 1. One suggestion - I think at one point Fred Price, Jr. thought you were saying when we are dead in sin before regeneration, that we have no will at all. Reformed theology does not teach that the unregenerate man has no will at all; only that the will is so damaged that it is not able to choose good over evil, & we cannot repent and believe unless God awakens us first.
I have never watched Fred Price Jr before, but I gotta say, this video made me quite a fan. Doctrinal issues aside, this man swept up the floor with Saiko Woods. Woods was way out of his league with this one, and it appears he thinks more highly of himself than he ought. He appeared to be unable to answer any of FPJ's questions, and he rambled so much, often forgetting the point he was making, the question he was answering, or the subject they were discussing. Woods was all over the place, while FPJ was measured, calm, collected, informed, and humble. Good discussion, though. Thanks for posting. I will be watching a lot more FPJ videos.
We are going to suffer the consequences of sin in our physical bodies which will eventually deteriorate and die.I am firmly convinced that God is mainly concerned with our spiritual healing.Our physical ailments can be a positive thing that causes us to avoid being too puffed up and cause us to keep depending on God.Remember Paul?Nothing would separate me from the love of God,not sickness.
Free Will that the Almight GOD has given to us allows us to Believe in him or not! That why Fatih play a GOOD Roll in receiving Heal & all Gifts From over Heaven Father!
Melissa Martinez - The conversation was an unscripted, real, no holds barred discussion that invited such personality and dialogue. My actions in the video weren't to offend and Pastor Price was aware of it and welcomed it during the discussion in the video. As men and brothers in the Lord, we wanted our dialogue in this video to have barber shop atmosphere where men would discuss sports and life issues. Our video dealt with theological subject matter. That's the difference. God bless you.
I'm Catholic and I am actually glad to see two Christians sit down and talk about their differences. The problem with Reformed theology is the problem with free will. The problem with the Word of Faith is that its off on God's sovereignty, in that God does allow His people to suffer tragedy and it has nothing to do with bad faith.
I will have to come back to this and put it on my watch later list. very interested in this topic. I enjoyed listening to Saiko Woods on Stand Up for the Truth, a local show in WI, whenever he's on.
Conversations like these are great for believers like me! Thank you gentlemen for having it and sitting like believers and handling differences like believers!
Yes we are Brother. Fred Jr's my dude and I have mad respect for him. I pray folk don't see Him in the light of Sr's words and teaching. UNLESS it violates Scripture, we're to exercise grace and humility.
I am a Charismatic believer, but I do not espouse Word of Faith teachings, at least to the extreme that the most prominent teachers go. I believe in the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit. I speak in tongues when God's presence falls upon me. I have been miraculously healed. I have been provided for miraculously by God. But God is sovereign. We can't claim whatever we want and hold God's feet to the fire til it comes to pass. We don't seek after health and wealth. We seek after God, and trust that He will give us whatever we need to carry out His will and remain close to Him: healing, provision, and yes, even a measure of trials. We ought to pray and believe for the best from God (things that actually are positive, pleasant, beneficial to us) and yet be able to receive whatever comes from His sovereign hand.
Brother Saiko. Thanks for providing this. This is a fantastic discussion. You're modeling how a dialogue and not compromising on the truth. Very edifying.
Thank you. We've discussed some of the texts you cited off camera, but like you said, so many things go on and this was an off the dome conversation that was unscripted. I believe the Word won't return void and will accomplish what it was sent to do with my friend/brother. God bless!
Im a reformed Christian and Ive watched this exchange twice and I have to say that I agree with a lot of what Saiko has presented in defense of the reformed understanding of scripture and how it pertains to the purpose and sovereignty of God. I do appreciate this type of exchange. In watching this exchange the second time I liked Freds demeanor a lot more. It was a little hard to actually watch Saiko express the positions he had. But thank God interaction is happening.
One of the most difficult challenges to my beliefs in recent years involves the topic of the nature of Hell. Right around the hour and 15 minute mark of the video, this very subject came to bear. It was clear that both were completely invested in the traditional view of Eternal Conscious Torment. Pastor Woods specifically referred to 2 Thessalonians 1, and said that those who continued in sin would suffer eternal "torment." I couldn't see anywhere in the cited text where that language was used. If that view is correct, it is very understandable that many, like Pastor Price, would have a difficult time embracing a doctrine stating God created some knowing they would sin, knowing they were incapable to refrain from sinning, knowing He would not rescue them from sin, and ordaining that they would suffer for all of eternity in unending torment as punishment for their sin. Our ideas of justice in the western world are greatly informed by the teachings of the Bible. Frankly, this view makes God seem more sadistic than Godly. Nevertheless, I accepted the traditional view because it was what I'd always been taught, and I saw all of the scriptures referring to Hell through that paradigm. It is a view that is so pervasive in the Church. After my view was first challenged but a Conditionalist, it took me a couple of years before I was willing to finally sit down and really study it out for myself. Conditionalists do not view Hell as a place where unbelievers suffer unending torment for all eternity. That would require eternal life, which is a gift reserved only for those who accept Christ as Savior. It is "conditioned" upon having one's name listed in the Lamb's Book of Life. A Conditionalist believes that the punishment for sin is death. Period. The second death is final death, rather than eternal conscious torment and separation from God. The penalty for the unbeliever is not eternal punishing. It is eternal punishment - or death from which one can't come back. For those who believe different degrees of punishment are reserved for the unbeliever depending on the severity of their sin, the method by which judgment is carried out could vary. The Bible isn't clear on it. But the punishment will ultimately end in complete, final, utter destruction. While I don't believe it is salvific, I have come to embrace this doctrine. As the acceptance of the Doctrine of Election cleared up difficulties in understanding scripture, the conditional view of the nature of Hell has had a similar effect. I would love to hear a similarly spirited debate on this topic.
I applaud you all for being able to have a conversation & even disagree and not see either of you step outside of the character of Christ. What I'd like to know is, what is the significance of attaching ourselves to a particular "sect" within the body... I attend a non-denominational church. We teach the word of God as it is written, and according to the word, Christ is coming back for ONE body of people speaking the same thing, which is the TRUTH, not any particular doctrine. Right?!
An enjoyable discussion. On the life insurance issue, the simple fact is, God's will is still God's will. In the end he makes choices regarding His children's health. Pstr. Price's point is great. why would our faith matter to the sovereign God? Answer: because of free will. he is not a God of robots, we must CHOOSE to believe him just as Adam chose to accept the fruit. God did not ordain the fall. The very nature of free will is evidence that God ordains nothing but what is good.
Please Pray for Me Jason Morris, and My Mother Silvia Skrabl and her Friend Brigitte Reichholf that God will bless us and protect us and do supernatural things for US in JESUS NAME !
I'm reformed and I didn't see you compromise at all.I believe like you that many people are true Christians in spite of their denominations because they are really just ignorant.I also believe that if they have the Holy Spirit He will teach them the truth before they die.
Wow Pastor Woods, great job in this debate. God bless your heart. I live in Lowell MA, and I would love if you could possibly come to the church in which I attend (small Brazilian church) and preach the word. Take care
The hardest thing I struggled with for years, as an Arminian, was the idea that God would 'send' people to hell. Once God began to reveal the beauty and truth of His sovereignty, it was clear to see that mankind has rejected God completely, and DESPITE our rebellion, He has chosen a people for His glory. I used to think that people were seeking God in the wrong places (religions, cults, etc), but I now see that we seek ONLY to exalt ourselves and satisfy our own desires. Apart from Christ, we are all guilty. There is nothing we can do to save ourselves. The faith we have to profess Christ, was GIVEN. 2 Thessalonians 2:13; But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. Phillippians 1:6; And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. God begins and ends the work of our salvation. When we deny God's sovereignty, we deny that He is God at all.
Awesome dialogue but the only comment I would make in regards to the 'having enough faith for healing' topic is the following. In 2 Corinthians chapter 12 Paul (who was an awesome man of God and had tons of faith) 'pleaded' with the Lord to have the thorns taken away from him, "But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” It wasn't the Lords will to heal Paul
I am presently researching false teaching and heresies in the church. I am not a Pastor, actually I grew up with a Catholic mother, Hindu Father, and for a short time attended an Islamic school (i know, I know... a real hodge-pot of false teachings) anywho, long story shortened, my Mom and Dad are now born again. I actually stumbled across this by accident only today and was blown away to hear you guys chatting about this. It was good, but I agree with you our authority is the Bible in all thing
When he said, "I was never taught that," it was powerful. That was the perfect moment for someone, who can relate, to say, "Neither was I." That's where empathy comes in. Studying the bible can't teach you that. Nobody taught me election or predestination, I read it. I don't believe what every Calvinist presumes to know based on a few truths they've discovered. I don't agree with everything this Reformed pastor said. We all have to understand for ourselves and not because we were out-argued.
After realizing the depth of the sovereignty of God, the predestination discussion is no longer a burden to understand. We puny humans get ourselves wrapped up in the fact of choice - PFFFFFFT!!!! We have a merciful and gracious God who ALLOWS us to make a choice. People trip on the elect vs those that are not because they fail to understand that in God's all knowing, He KNOWS the choice we will make under any circumstance and as such I believe this is why there are those who are not elect who go to hell; God knew/knows what decision they would make in any circumstance. He knows who will choose Him and who will not. I cannot think of a verse that depicts what I have said here, so pardon my speculation. Please, do not quote me, brethren, I am just sharing my thoughts on a very complex discussion. God bless.
Also, it was pretty evident that Pastor Woods is not only a student of the Word but that he is very knowledgeable of the Word of Faith and the certain scriptures that usually get used when someone tries to defend the Word of Faith.
Pastor Price definitely has been preaching recently on tv to justify his point in this discussion and even spoke of you in a respectful way. I believe all things are predestinated by GOD, JESUS was slain before the foundations of the earth revelation 13:8
Thank you Pastor Price for the love and humility you show. That it's what stood out the most in this interaction. Beautiful attitude.
Excellent, civil, biblical conversation between two great men of God! Loved both their passion and knowledge of scripture! Again, awesome video...and I can't wait to see Part II!
This type of thing needs to happen far more in the "black church" . There is often WAY too much focus on emotion and self help not enough on what the Bible actually teaches , theology and doctrine. Great video guys.
NOW I understand why woods feels God has appointed Him exclusively to stir up strive...10 years later he's still stirring up confusion!!!
The predestination discussion was very informative. I was able to appreciate Pastor Price's honesty where he allowed himself to be vulnerable and say what he did @ 1:27:15 - 1:30:10. Man, I hope Pastor Price Jr. is still humble like he was in that segment! I pray more of us (including myself) would be as Price Jr. was when in company of someone who has more understanding and wisdom; to humble ourselves and express our difficulty in grasping a concept instead of arguing on a cracking foundation. Amen. Praise God for this meeting 10 years ago!
I just recently interviewed Fred Price Jr. and upon watching this video again I realized that there was some ambiguity about what Creflo Dollar said. He wasn't saying that Jesus isn't God. He was trying to explain the doctrine of kenosis, that Jesus willingly took upon Himself human limitations and ministered by the power of the Holy Spirit rather than by His own inherent deity. This doesn't change His divine essence. It only addresses the temporary deactivation of Jesus' divine abilities.
Pastor Woods, I thank God for you. You were both loving and firm. I pray for these brothers and it is my hope that the Gospel will be preached on the WOF churches with power to save sinners.
Man this is good!!!! Dang near better than any sermon I've heard. Awesome theological conversation & examination of scripture. God is unrestricted, unlimited, unconditional, boundless, self-determining, dominant & pre-dominant. He doesn't have to give us a rhyme or reason to why he does what he does; blessing or curses, healing or no healing, deliverance or no deliverance. But in His sovereignty & omniscient nature He, and only He knows what He's doing & what His ultimate plan is.
King CJ Well said! Consider Is 46: 9-10 "I am God there is no other, I am God there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning; From ancient days things not yet done; saying, 'My counsel shall stand' and 'I will accomplish all my purpose." Also Ps 115:3 "Our God is in the heavens; he does all he pleases." (ESV) Excellent debate -- Pastor Fred Price probably would be helped by a lesson in church history.
LenGarden
I agree....this is awesome that they are studying together, but in love.....no competitive undertone....they walked away from this as brothers, not enemies......Thats the difference...
WOW , Sorry " King Y " , but your statement is Not Scripturally Based , we are COMMANDED , to Know , what GOD'S Will is , in Scripture . If we are
" Basically Clueless " ( LOL ) How can we Act in True Faith , when we don't Know , what His Will is ??? Please , check out this Scripture , and pray to receive GOD'S , ( Promised ! ) ( Holy ) " Spirit of WISDOM and REVELATION " ( see Ephesians 1 verses 13 to 20 ) Life Changing Scriptures ! Carefully read PROVERBS Chapters 1 and 2 , and see the MANY Blessings , HE has provided , to the Diligent , Believing , Faithful , Obedient , seeker of God !
@@GodsDutchUncle Deut 29;29 There are God's secret things that we CAN'T KNOW,.HIS LAW S are things He tells us to follow.We can only know how things OUGHT to be,not what God has actually decreed to happen.
Excellent example of what a Christ-centered debate should look like. Bro. Saiko Woods did a stellar job of presenting the Reformed understanding of Scripture. At the same time, I have to commend Bro. Price's humility. He's genuine and I have the utmost respect for his Christlike attitude. I am out of the "Pentecostal" (quasi Word of Faith) camp, studied the Word deeply, and am now absolutely Reformed.
I applaud these gentlemen, and they did conducted themselves as such. However, they have shown that God will do whatever He wants, that being the case, in whatever He wants we must remain in faith towards Him, whether for healing or any otherwise…great discussion we need more of this in a more open transparent forum…thanks men of God.
With true gratitude, I want to commend Saiko Woods for honoring God and being the hand of God that reaches for F Price Jr. This is, surprisingly, the first I've heard Woods - Glory be to God! There is no greater actualization than when the uncaused First Cause of the universe implements someone in His good pleasure (for those Christians who dispute/question, this is simply quoting the Bible)!
This is excellent! What it shows is that we need to understand God more because it’s having the Mind of God that shuts the mouths of humans....we all need to submit more to God to manifest His intelligence! I love it guys... keep them coming!
Praise God! Thank you for the encouragement. God bless you.
You brothers did well defending & defining your positions. As iron sharpens iron I believe Pastor Price will benefit moreso. He showed a degree of humility and a willingness to examine the evidence of Scripture. Pastor Woods was sound, patient, and caring toward his brother in the Lord. Of course, if someone asked me why do I have insurance or go visit a doctor, I would quote the Scripture, "Those that are sick are in need of a physician." This was surprisingly delightful and I remained engaged.
Kirk Samuels - Thank you Brother for the encouragement. W.A.R. 2 coming soon! Please share this video with others. God bless you!
Peace, brothers and sisters from the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I praise the God of Truth for this historical exchange. The Lord is using both of you to help me understand how to glorify the Father through specific customs and traditions. Two brothers in Christ can have differing views and still remain in His love. I was reformed before I knew what reformed was. In one of the loneliness times of my walk with Christ I listened to Brother Paul Washer's message titled The True Gospel of Jesus Christ and I almost didn't want to listen to anyone else. However, I believe the Holy Spirit guided me to a Word of Faith congregation within the last year. I fellowshipped with Him through God's people who believed in exercising different gifts. Now, this was the challenge... as I joined this congregation, when I had questions about some of it, I was not given a biblical answer. Most of it went "unexamined" (contrary to 2 Corinthians 13:5). I became frustrated and began to question if these were even God's people. And it is TRULY awe-inspiring how MERCIFUL the Lord is. Not only did the Holy Spirit show me that this congregation was His, He also sent another brother with a more reformed view to the church to help me. This is what I am trying to say... the Lord does not judge us based on whether or not we get the doctrine right (even though it is IMPORTANT), He judges us by how we LOVE! If you love your camp's doctrine more than you love your brother/sister in Christ, you are in danger because this is not about WHAT is true but WHO is the TRUTH! Amen? I thank our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for you brothers! Shalom!
Great dialogue. One of the things I appreciated the most was that when they went to scripture, they made sure to read the scripture fully in context and not just pulling out a verse by itself.
There are many things that I agree with that Pastor Saiko said and many things that I agree with that Pastor Price said. I think that's the beauty of this video. More Christians (especially ministers) should have the spiritual maturity to have candid discussions like this and then put things aside for the sake of the Gospel! Praise God for these brothers. This is what Christ is all about! Not arguing! Not Hating! Loving discussions and the ability to move forward IN CHRIST! -Chic.
I think Fred price jr. is a gentleman and has the proper Godly attitude as far as all the tough issues those are hard things of God ...God bless you both...
In just a few correspondences/dialogues, I have learned not to even be involved in UA-cam comments, but this is something that irresistibly compels a response. In only the first 20 minutes that I've seen has brought me to tears. 4 Price 2 even be sitting in this dialogue is encouraging and indicates that he is interested in truth even if it contradicts his views. Years earlier, as a new Christian, I embraced Dollar and Jakes (been 2 both churches twice and I live in Georgia) - (cont. above)
In an effort of full disclosure, I have only watched 1 hour of this video but will try to watch it later along with part 2. I think the concept of this is great if the purpose is to have a dialogue where there are some conclusions drawn in the end. Ultimately, my faith and belief in my current approach to understanding God has not changed as a result of this video.
I had a real problem getting through this video. I think this should be done again with the following structure:
Step 1 - Set up the topics:
a. 5 core beliefs for Calvinist are selected by the Word of Faith Camp.
b. 5 core beliefs of The Word of Faith Doctrine are selected by the Calvinist Camp.
Step 2 - Each side gets time to state their position on ONE of the five core beliefs and the scriptural support and, if so desired, the theological, academic, literary, and/or other support to substantiation their position.
Step 3 - The opposing side then gets an opportunity to counter or agree with the other side’s position and support.
Step 4 - The speaker that initially began then gets an opportunity to counter the counter arguments and support.
Step 5 - A conclusion is then reached and stated by the moderator or it is agreed that no mutual agreement can be reach.
Step 6 - Move on to the next topic until all five beliefs have been discussed.
Optional Step 7 - Have this done with an audience and have a Q&A session where people can ask questions to the proponents of either camp.
im young (23) and reformed ....the Pentecostals prey on gullible women...so glad I found a theology that brings my identity in Christ into the right light
My dad was a pastor when i was growing up. I never heard of Calvin or reformation. I didnt discover until Summer of 2014. Now I feel its the correct reading of the Bible even though my dad disagrees.
I'm a firm believer in reformed theology, and I thank God that Pastor Woods defended the faith in a biblical way!
1. I have a newfound respect for Fred Price Jr. for agreeing to this discussion. He's famous, Woods isn't. He had everything to lose and nothing to really gain. I commend him for that. 2. People say you can't discuss politics and religion. thats a myth! I know that by open communication IN A RESPECTFUL WAY we can get to the bottom of a lot of our differences. 3) Woods won, hands down. However, they were just jumping from scripture to scripture at various points in the discussion. Personally, I would have hammered Price on some of his misconceptions before allowing him to leave one topic and go to another. All in all, great video.
good post ; but no one won, if any thing price was more business-like
Good pnt ~ thats what I said :)
Woods defense of his stance was stronger and more convincing. that determines who actually wins a debate....who makes the stronger argument. But overall THEY BOTH win for demonstrating that we CAN discuss these differences, and We CAN get a little "spirited", but WE DONT have to divide over them.
john clark
john clark 7
I came from a WoF background and have since read my Bible and saw with my own eyes the errors within the WoF doctrines. I have since shifted over to the Reformed "camp". But it was refreshing to see to men discussing their differences regarding was scripture says in a civil manner.
this gave me a lot of respect for Fred Jr.
good dialogue from both
I've heard Fred's dad say if you are in a wheelchair or sick God can't use you,you don't have enough faith.So I'm glad you brought the whole healing thing up.
Good discussion pastor Saiko. The reformed position makes much more sense. First, scripturally. Second, what we see in the body of Christ as far as some believers being healed, and others who have been life long devoted followers of Christ who don't get healed. God is sovereign and in control, not us.
Thanks. God bless!
djvdiddy people not getting healed is not a reflection of God’s will, just as people not getting saved isn’t a reflection of God’s will. People fail to receive healing because of unbelief, not God’s will.
When I watched this video I did not know any of these pastors or what they are about but thank you pastor Price I got a lot of clarity about faith, you really nailed it, I don't know why Woods would want to cause people not to have faith, saying you don't want to give people false assurance it's like just quenching people's fire instead of igniting the fire . How can they hear without a preacher, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, pastors are there to stir up our faith for us to see the word of God come to pass in our lives that's how we get edified. i'm not gonna go to a church where someone is gonna tell me, you not healed because it is not God's will i want to be kept in faith until I see the results. 'He marveled at their unbelieve" unbelieve attributed to what God couldn't do in certain people's lives, do you believe i'm able to do this?' "your faith has made you well" "according to your faith" 'without faith it impossible to please him' "I do believe, help my unbelieve" this statement shows he had doubt but he wanted God to remove his doubt so that it wont hinder God moving in his life. our faith has a big part in our well being and Pastor Price you have proven it. Not everything that is happening in our lives is God's will, God did not ordain satan, for by man sin entered the world that is clearly not God's will, the bible says God gave us the power to choose, just like you say the word bible is not in the bible, the word rapture is not in the bible, the word trinity is not in the bible same way the word freewill is not in the bible but we all know God gave man freewill, we are not puppets that God just controls same way those who reject the gospel can not say i'm in hell because God didn't call/choose me. And pastor Price you nailed the part about God giving us authority God brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name it shows the power we have so call things that are not to existence . Pastor Woods sounds funny when he says all doesn't mean all he is not making sense at allllll.
Mpho Machialwe Thank you for your comment. I'm sure if you and I had a conversation and I were able to clarify and unpack my position with you through the Scriptures, you would better understand my view.
How'd you hear about the video? Did you watch both parts yet?
Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Saiko Woods I was having a debate with a brother in Christ yesterday in my WhatsApp group and he holds the same sentiments as you, so someone told me that he is a reformed Christian since it was my first time hearing about that I decided to do research and I came across your video. honestly I never knew there was this division in the church body of Christ.
I would like to hear more of your views I have a a WhatsApp group of fellower believers that you can join the link just to shed light on the topic then you can exit if you so wish.
Follow this link to join my WhatsApp group: chat.whatsapp.com/9nut1Fkp8Nv8GgXffmVRov
I am a graduate of the Pastoral program of Rhema Bible Training Center in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, the Bible school founded and run by Kenneth E. Hagin ministries. I, personally, sat under the direct teaching of Kenneth E. Hagin and all of the Hagins who taught at the school, as well as many of the Word of Faith teachers mentioned in this discussion. I spent 17 years of my life as a Christian believer in the Charismatic / Word of Faith movement. I left that movement in frustration and disgust about 10 years ago.
Let me say that I was saved before I encountered charismatic doctrine, and I never doubted that I was a Christian or was saved during the entire time I was a part of the movement. In fact, I believe God has confirmed His presence in my life on a regular basis from the moment I was first saved until now. I will not claim that Charismatics / Word of Faith believers are not Bible believing Christians. Some of the most devoted and passionate Christians I have ever encountered were in the Charismatic movement. I do believe that Charismatics suffer in this life, and their faith in Jesus Christ is regularly and unnecessarily challenged, because of a lack of knowledge. They are, as I was, deceived by faulty doctrine.
Are these issues that affect the Gospel? I believe they are. I could tell story after story of new believers who were crushed when they "stepped out in faith" as they were taught, and the teachings didn't work in their lives. I believe the mission of the Church is discredited when those following the teachings of Word of Faith make commitments to others based on the things they are taught and they are not able to fulfill their commitments because the teachings failed.
If Word of Faith teachings are true, they should lead to wiping out poverty from our midst. They should work as well in the Middle East and China as they supposedly work in the US. Word of Faith teachers and preachers should be spending every available hour teaching and preaching in hospitals and healing those who are sick and lame. Unfortunately, there is a key ingredient, I believe, that is missing from Word of Faith teaching. That key is SOVEREIGNTY.
When one is not healed, it isn't necessarily because the believer lacks faith. If one does not become rich, it is not a sign of immaturity as a believer. When one succumbs to disease and dies, it is not because they couldn't properly grasp spiritual truths. When one's prayers are not answered, it is because of the simple truth that God is SOVEREIGN! In my final year in the movement, the Holy Spirit began to point out this truth over and over in my life. I came to realize that, while every Word of Faith believer claimed they believed that God was sovereign, I had never once heard a teaching or sermon that went into any detail regarding it. The simple matter is this: If God is truly sovereign, Word of Faith teaching can't work!
In my walk with Christ, I have found one thing to be true over and over and over again. When one comes to a clear understanding of what the Bible really says, a new level of freedom in Christ is revealed. When I finally realized that the doctrine I'd embraced was wrong, and I walked away, chains for which I wasn't even aware began to fall away. I discovered a freedom that was beyond what I could have ever imagined.
I do not know whether Word of Faith leaders are even aware of their error. I don't assume they are willfully usurping the faith and abusing their followers. Some may well be doing just that, but I assume the majority are not. They may be as deluded as I once was and simply trying to do what they believe is right.
I walked away from Word of Faith. I did not walk away from Christ. I believe my departure was orchestrated by God, and at the same time, I realize He is the same God who allowed me to walk in that error for nearly two decades. I have a closer walk with Jesus now than I did before. And my heart breaks for those who continue in the bondage of Word of Faith beliefs. I pray daily for opportunities to minister to such believers who are questioning their Word of Faith beliefs and, as a result, their very faith in Christ.
I am encouraged by this video and by the opportunity for a conversation to take place on this level. Thank you, Pastor Woods and Pastor Price, for being humble and willing to speak openly, candidly and in Christian love about the differences in your beliefs. I pray that through your efforts, the Holy Spirit will reveal greater truth for both sides of the debate.
+John Batts Praise The LORD my brother for HIM bringing you out of that false teaching. Let me first start by saying that I too was mixing error with Truth of GOD'S WORD. Meaning, I was Born Again and I began to read/study GOD'S WORD. And by loving The LORD, I began to watch hours upon hours, days after days of TBN and The Word network. Of course I would question 'many' of the pastors that these stations allowed to preach The Gospel. And I would buy the disclaimer (lies) that TBN would always use about not agreeing with everyone who you see on their channel. But this puzzled me to no end. Why would you even allow these heretical teachers on the air in the first place? But being a babe in CHRIST, I overlooked that minor detail (so I thought). Any way, as The LORD was dealing with me (because I studied), I began to fill uneasy in my soul. And then I discovered many messages that these people were delivering. The first horror I discovered was Kenneth Copeland. Granted, I didn't watch this guy all the time (only here and there), but I followed his so called spiritual son (yea right), Creflo Dollar. And friend, I heard heresy after heresy (damnable heresies) from 'all' of these wolves. I was ashamed and angry at myself for not even seeing or knowing that I was following ministers of satan! My favorite pastor was TD Jakes. Oh how The LORD delivered my soul. And friend, this is where I can understand your testimony. Although I wasn't brought up under those satanic teachings, I fell for them. But I believe GOD brings 'all' of those who 'truly' seek HIM out from false teachings. True Believers will be led by The HOLY SPIRIT into 'all' Truth. Now it was harder for my wife because, sad to say, she doesn't study as we're told to do. She relies on me. So when I informed her that her so called pastors, Joyce Meyer (her favorite) and Joel Osteen were demonic, she didn't believe me. But again, GOD is wonderful. Audio was made available of Joyce speaking doctrine of devils, and I played it for my wife. This was hard for her because she had books and cd's and dvd's of this woman's venomous teachings. But none the less, she believes what the Scriptures say and thew all that filth away. (cont.)
(cont.) And around the same time, a video was made about our boy Joel and his demonic beliefs mixed in with 'some' Truth to present it as Christianity. I showed it to my wife and she begin to say, who can we trust? My answer to her was, GOD and HIS HOLY WORD. Again my friend, if I hadn't searched the Scriptures for myself and continued to read/study, rightly dividing the Word of Truth, we would still be in error. Now to what I wanted to really say. Those who are under that false teaching are 'not' in the Family of GOD. The Bible clearly says: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables" (2 Timothy 4:3,4)... But what does GOD tell us to do? Repent and come 'out' of that mess: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me" (Revelation 3:19,20)... So then, the point being, the word of faith movement is leading countless souls to an Eternal Wrath! Again we are told: "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen" (2 Peter 3:18)... And we can't grow if we don't spend time in HIS WORD. "Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15)... Sadly, many in that belief (doctrine) are not even reading the Bible for themselves. And countless others don't have The HOLY SPIRIT. But for those who do, they will be led 'out' of that demonic teaching and into the 'True' understanding of Scriptures. So once again I thank The LORD for delivering your soul. I hope to see you in the clouds my friend. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)...
"Now to what I wanted to really say. Those who are under that false teaching are 'not' in the Family of GOD. The Bible clearly says: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables" (2 Timothy 4:3,4)... "
Frankly, I find this offensive. Who are you to say that those under false teaching are NOT in the family of God? As far as I can tell, it is seldom that even two Christians believe in exactly the same thing on every issue. We all walk in a certain amount of error. Simply because one walks in error, that does not mean they will "not endure sound doctrine." I doesn't mean they aren't seeking God with all their heart. It may simply mean that the error in doctrine hasn't yet been exposed, and they have not yet been taught sound doctrine.
I was one of many in the Charismatic movement who sought God daily. I spent countless hours studying the Scriptures, praying, praising, seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I enjoyed the blessings of God. I am certain I never would have questioned the doctrines I had embraced had it not been for the leading of the Holy Spirit. How would I get that leading if I wasn't part of the "family of God?" If it was absolutely necessary that I reject that teaching in order to be saved, why didn't the Holy Spirit convict me of the error earlier? If it is absolutely necessary that everybody who wants to be a part of the "family of God" not walk in error, why do Christians disagree on anything? Why are there so many divisions among us? Why hasn't the Holy Spirit convicted all of us on all error and, in doing so, eliminated all division?
I love Word of Faith followers. I know they love Jesus, but my heart breaks for them because I know the error they walk in causes them to suffer and not fully understand the freedom of Christ. I really don't think it's your place to sit in judgment as to whether God accepts them or not. That is way above your pay grade, brother!
John Batts Friend, I 'truly' didn't mean to upset nor offend you. That was 'not' my intention. But I must correct you, in Love. I clearly said that those who have The HOLY GHOST will be led to The 'Truth'. Quote: "But I believe GOD brings 'all' of those who 'truly' seek HIM out from false teachings. True Believers will be led by The HOLY SPIRIT into 'all' Truth"... This is what happened to and for you and I (plus countless others). GOD brought us from 'heresy' to HIS TRUTH. And yes John, word of faith is 'heretical' in their understanding of the Scriptures. The Bible says: "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privately shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their shameful ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with false words exploit you: whose judgment of old now lingers not, and their destruction slumbers not" (2 Peter 2:1-3)... Let me give you an example. The teaching of this movement says that GOD wants us to be wealthy in this world and have a nice home (and or homes), drive the best cars and have an abundant life (material) while on Earth. But what does the Scriptures say? "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust does corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust does corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Matthew 6:19-21)... cont.
John Batts (cont.) Did you catch that? And the icing is verse 21 which says Where your treasure is, is where your 'heart' is... That's powerful and damning for this movement. These types of Christians are called carnal minded. They are set on Earthly possessions and not Heavenly rewards. Again we read: "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:5-8)... Friend, again this is damning to this heretical movement. And there's more: "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides forever" (1 John 2:15-17)... Do you see that? The word of faith teachings are 'contrary' to the Scriptures. And John, being in heresy is being in the flesh, and the Bible says: (cont.)
This has got to be one of the most BEST discussions in ALL Christiandom. Too bad many folks wont bother to watch this.
I was a former Word of Faith. Now I am just a Biblicist. I just teach what it says, and leave personal and demonenational theology in the trash.
I love this discussion, but then again I question some of the conversation. And I also am glad that Pastor Saiko Woods puts it out that T.D. Jakes does not believe in the Trinity!
Brother Woods, I appreciate your attempt to confront gross error in peace and love and this is truly historic in that WOF and reformed theologians do not commonly meet for a friendly debate and this may be a great foundation for others to debate biblical truth. As tough as it is to school an Arminian Pentecostal Dispensationalist on sound teaching you took to task and I praise God for your effort. These are the last days and I pray that WOF is confronted and unmasked and that many repent
Dan Morgan - Thanks for the advice, but I believe I come from a place of fact instead of fallacy when I say the NC Movement is emergent and not something Calvinists like myself need to attach ourselves to.
Classic Calvinism isn't broken, therefore it doesn't need to be fixed.
Great is the mystery of Godliness. I have a problem with hard wiring definitions like trinity. I think that revelation is progressive. If someone said one divided by two is impossible and someone else said one divided by two is half. Both are right, it depends on where u r in learning. Its matter of perspective.
The NC movement has its difficulties, but it is decidedly NOT emergent! It is doctrinally heavy, whereas one of the defining characteristics of the emergent church is a rejection of meta-narratives and truth claims....
Pastor Woods I was quite impressed with how you biblically supported your beliefs. I was a strong follower of WOF/Charasmatic but over the past few years have seen some of the things taught and practiced by WOF/Charasmatic goes way beyond scripture.
Ronald - I didn't attend seminary. I did however, attend Bible College in Houston.
The New Schoolers of the 1800's the likes of Albert Barnes, Asa Mahan, Charles Finney and others more than exposed "classical Calvinism".
If there had not been a fall, would we know of the glory of God, as it pertains to His great mercy? So hence, what seems terrible to us at times, is in fact something to reveal the glory of God, whether in mercy, love, or judgement and wrath.
Pastor Woods seems a little too puffed up to me. He needs to realize that yes, he can also be wrong about certain things.
And you're defining me being "puffed up" as what? I don't recall ever saying I can't be wrong about anything. If I am or you believe I am wrong about this issue, please feel free to share your disagreement with me biblically. If you like, you can even email your concerns to me. saikowoods@yahoo.com
Saiko Woods lol... Terry didn't expect you to respond...
Michael Norman I'm sure he didn't. I try to respond to most of the comments I get when I have time. Hopefully Terry will explain how I'm being puffed up. I'm sure if I was the Spirit of God would've shown me my sin.
Elohiem is his name or Father Yah, we are Israel come out if them Christianity.
Yes Sir; You Are Right, They Would Say Different, Because NO One Goes Against Themselves; Hence Two Will Be Able To Walk Because They Both Agree. And May You Be Blessed And May The Wisdom Of The Almighty God, Creator Of Heaven And Earth Direct Your Path.
Pastor Fred Price, you just gained my respect. I am sorry to say your colleague contradicts himself and the word he 'believes' in!
You care to explain what you think I "contradict" myself in? I'd be interested in knowing about it. Thanks.
I praise God for these two brothers.A blessing to see you guys wrestle over the scriptures. .Another reminder that finite man needs to humbly handle the text of the infinite God. I love both of your logic about the health/life insurance. You are both right if you approach the scriptures logically. btw, the easy answer for both of you is God uses means. They that are sick NEED a physician! Doesn't contradict God's Word. Same Bible says he could do NO MIRACLES because of their UNBELIEF!
My opinion: Price is displaying lots of humility and Woods is displaying lots of sarcasm and arrogance. To me, they're evidently not having the same attitude, they're not united in the vision for the video. ...at least, that's not what I feel by watching the video....
Calvinism often attracts that type of ... arrogant personality.
Great discussion. Much of what you both said was true. As a spectator I could see where you both were having difficulty with one anothers logical conclusions. I am glad the Bible is a living and breathing book. Keep contending for the faith!
Good video... It would've been nice if Woods was a little less sarcastic. Nevertheless good stuff I enjoyed it.
Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:11-15 (KJV) 22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. 23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.1 Tim 5:21-23 I must admit these scriptures are enough for me.. I Love both of these brothers for willingness to search for the truth
This was fun to watch.
J Hardin - I've been a Pastor for 8yrs, I'm the Pastor of His Word His Way Fellowship Church in Sugar Land Texas. I attended College of Biblical Studies in Houston. I have not attained a theological degree due to financial constraints imposed by God's sovereign purpose and plan to keep me from being proud (1 Cor 8:1; 2 Cor 12:7). In retrospect, I thank God for what He's done in my life and ministry.
I luv this new comment board system :) no more a22inine trolls ~ posting argumentative comment(s) w/ blantant obnoxious stupidity :) as 4 Fred & the scripturally-weak ~ argumentative religio-fake/trolls roaming about defending Fred's excess ~ 1 Tim 6:5 + ; Proverbs 28:6
Hey man; your rite, man, your rite
***** ~ Hey bck ~ just a liberty ~ checking out this new Google++ feature :) & it seems Google ++ now deems our comment(s) as private discussion boards rather than comment targets for trolls :) I believe Ytube forgot the block option though :(
OK man
***** ~ :) & don't call Me ~ Man ~ I'm not Ur father :))
*****~ violetkitty is the Matt 7:21 variety ~b3tch ~ so look sharp ~ Dude
Honestly speaking,God uses the reading the minor and major prophets not just picking verses out (i.e. Jeremiah, Isaiah, Amos and Nahum) to free me from Me centered theology. Also as a "member" of the reformed camp, we really have to pray for humility because we can really look and sound haughty at times. This is awesome and a God sent.
I never heard of Saiko, but his arrogance shows through clearly.
Don't confuse arrogance with assurance. Have a good day.
I recommend listening to Pastor Voddie Baucham to understand more about the things discussed in this video. He is an awesome teacher and makes it understandable. God bless these two Pastors for taking time to make this video! I learned a lot from it!
We know that Paul suffered during his ministry and God chose not to hear him. Would we say it was because of Paul's faith that he was never healed. Not hardly.
Pat Casey read the passage about Paul. His weakness was a messenger of Satan sent to torment him, NOT an illness. It says plain as day right there in the passage what was ailing him.
discussion like this really opens eyes as far as possible interpretations...and it's good that two leaders take the time to put together something like this so those who out in congregations at each other's necks can see how things are supposed to be handled and settled.
Why are you (Pastor Woods ) so concern with the teachings of Word of Faith??? If they are in error or teaching a false doctrine , let God handle that. He has not called you to be the police of the church . If I were Fred Price Jr. I would not have wasted one minute with you.
And that's why you and I didn't sit face to face to discuss it with you. Thank God my brother did. Thanks for your comment.
I want to thank both of you brothers for this lively, loving, and iron sharpening iron discussion. This was a outstanding example of brothers having difficult discussions in a Christ-like manner. My hat is off to you brothers. I'm in the Reformed camp, but love the Spirit displayed by both of you!!!
watching this debate as I type and as a believer that is also reformed in theology, I thank God for this in so many ways. This is how men are to discuss important matters.
Excellent Saiko!!! God-centered( Woods) vs Man-centered ( Price jr.) view of scripture. Reformers view scripture from the top down instead of the bottom up. A man-centered view of scripture never sees man for whom he really is and God for whom he TRULY is.This is clearly evident in Price Jr. For Price jr. the Potter is subject to the clay. The clay can challenge the Potter and say "why have you made me this way". Brother Price study the big three of God: Holiness, Sovereignty, and Providence.
Wow, if only more leaders in the Christian faith would have civil discussions about differences in doctrine like you two gentlemen...thanks so much for (both of you) having the courage to share this frank exchange online...
I agree with you regarding the WOF doctrine & where it originated. No argument from me on that point at all. But I can say that Fred Jr. doesn't hold to the "little gods" doctrine, Jesus being tormented in hell, God needing man's permission and other issues that he's been accused of. What I've learned in my interaction with Fred Jr is that EVERYONE can't be lumped as unsaved or heretics. Even those who are WOF. We must be willing to converse and be humble if we want to see God work.
You are absolutely correct pastor Saiko. I made some research, and it s indeed a greeting. People have been lied to. This quote has been taken out of context. May God bless you brother.
Blessed time together. Thank you both for being an example of Christ's love and "making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit" - the unity that already exist for all who are "in Christ". Keep it up.
RIGHT ON GUYS THANK YOU!!!!!!!! You WOF believers start running from from these churches. The WOF leaders are rich from your money!!!!!!!!!!!! Give your money to the poor!!!!!!!!!!
I myself was previously a die hard word of faith follower. I recently left the entire movement after looking at their doctrines from a biblical standpoint. Thanks for this video. I am currently seeking other reformers from my area, but again thanks for this video!
Praise God! Check out www.9marks.org and click "church search" or Google "Expository churches in (city/state).
You should be able to find some churches in your area. God bless.
I applaud these two gents for discussing theological issues as brothers with respect and love. I have huge respect for Fred Price Jr in this video, the only WoF pastor to dialogue with a reformer without being condescending. I've stopped listening to WoF preachers because of proof texting of scripture. No egos just brothers discussing theology.
Saiko, good discussion. As a "historic" classical Pentecostal with the Assemblies of God, I affirm the Five Solas of the Reformation. I believe that an ignorance of the Five Solas can lead to heretical theology. When Pentecostals with an anti-intellectual bent reject historic theology and don't study it, then this leads to the craziness of the Word-Faith prosperity camp. I can agree with many in the Reformed camp on divine sovereignty, although I'm Arminian over Calvinist, who sees merits in it.
Excellent Pastor Saiko - I really enjoyed watching and listening to that entire discussion you had with Fred Price, Jr.
1. One suggestion - I think at one point Fred Price, Jr. thought you were saying when we are dead in sin before regeneration, that we have no will at all. Reformed theology does not teach that the unregenerate man has no will at all; only that the will is so damaged that it is not able to choose good over evil, & we cannot repent and believe unless God awakens us first.
Naked I came out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return: Lord has given, and Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord; That Faith
I have never watched Fred Price Jr before, but I gotta say, this video made me quite a fan. Doctrinal issues aside, this man swept up the floor with Saiko Woods. Woods was way out of his league with this one, and it appears he thinks more highly of himself than he ought. He appeared to be unable to answer any of FPJ's questions, and he rambled so much, often forgetting the point he was making, the question he was answering, or the subject they were discussing. Woods was all over the place, while FPJ was measured, calm, collected, informed, and humble.
Good discussion, though. Thanks for posting. I will be watching a lot more FPJ videos.
We are going to suffer the consequences of sin in our physical bodies which will eventually deteriorate and die.I am firmly convinced that God is mainly concerned with our spiritual healing.Our physical ailments can be a positive thing that causes us to avoid being too puffed up and cause us to keep depending on God.Remember Paul?Nothing would separate me from the love of God,not sickness.
This was great. I am a Word of Faith guy and I do enjoy theology.
Free Will that the Almight GOD has given to us allows us to Believe in him or not! That why Fatih play a GOOD Roll in receiving Heal & all Gifts From over Heaven Father!
Melissa Martinez - The conversation was an unscripted, real, no holds barred discussion that invited such personality and dialogue. My actions in the video weren't to offend and Pastor Price was aware of it and welcomed it during the discussion in the video. As men and brothers in the Lord, we wanted our dialogue in this video to have barber shop atmosphere where men would discuss sports and life issues. Our video dealt with theological subject matter. That's the difference. God bless you.
I'm Catholic and I am actually glad to see two Christians sit down and talk about their differences. The problem with Reformed theology is the problem with free will. The problem with the Word of Faith is that its off on God's sovereignty, in that God does allow His people to suffer tragedy and it has nothing to do with bad faith.
Well said!!
I will have to come back to this and put it on my watch later list. very interested in this topic. I enjoyed listening to Saiko Woods on Stand Up for the Truth, a local show in WI, whenever he's on.
Conversations like these are great for believers like me! Thank you gentlemen for having it and sitting like believers and handling differences like believers!
Yes we are Brother. Fred Jr's my dude and I have mad respect for him. I pray folk don't see Him in the light of Sr's words and teaching. UNLESS it violates Scripture, we're to exercise grace and humility.
I am a Charismatic believer, but I do not espouse Word of Faith teachings, at least to the extreme that the most prominent teachers go. I believe in the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit. I speak in tongues when God's presence falls upon me. I have been miraculously healed. I have been provided for miraculously by God. But God is sovereign. We can't claim whatever we want and hold God's feet to the fire til it comes to pass. We don't seek after health and wealth. We seek after God, and trust that He will give us whatever we need to carry out His will and remain close to Him: healing, provision, and yes, even a measure of trials. We ought to pray and believe for the best from God (things that actually are positive, pleasant, beneficial to us) and yet be able to receive whatever comes from His sovereign hand.
Brother Saiko. Thanks for providing this. This is a fantastic discussion. You're modeling how a dialogue and not compromising on the truth. Very edifying.
This is a great example of how brothers ought to dialog and disagree with each other.
Thank you. We've discussed some of the texts you cited off camera, but like you said, so many things go on and this was an off the dome conversation that was unscripted. I believe the Word won't return void and will accomplish what it was sent to do with my friend/brother. God bless!
Excellent and patient defense of the Gospel by Pastor Woods.
May I just say it is so refreshing to see men discussing the things of God, with the Word of God! Iron sharpening Iron!
Im a reformed Christian and Ive watched this exchange twice and I have to say that I agree with a lot of what Saiko has presented in defense of the reformed understanding of scripture and how it pertains to the purpose and sovereignty of God. I do appreciate this type of exchange. In watching this exchange the second time I liked Freds demeanor a lot more. It was a little hard to actually watch Saiko express the positions he had. But thank God interaction is happening.
I cannot believe I've only found your channel .. like seriously lol. You've been on the platform for 9 yrs or more🤔 glad I found it ✊🏿
One of the most difficult challenges to my beliefs in recent years involves the topic of the nature of Hell. Right around the hour and 15 minute mark of the video, this very subject came to bear. It was clear that both were completely invested in the traditional view of Eternal Conscious Torment. Pastor Woods specifically referred to 2 Thessalonians 1, and said that those who continued in sin would suffer eternal "torment." I couldn't see anywhere in the cited text where that language was used.
If that view is correct, it is very understandable that many, like Pastor Price, would have a difficult time embracing a doctrine stating God created some knowing they would sin, knowing they were incapable to refrain from sinning, knowing He would not rescue them from sin, and ordaining that they would suffer for all of eternity in unending torment as punishment for their sin. Our ideas of justice in the western world are greatly informed by the teachings of the Bible. Frankly, this view makes God seem more sadistic than Godly.
Nevertheless, I accepted the traditional view because it was what I'd always been taught, and I saw all of the scriptures referring to Hell through that paradigm. It is a view that is so pervasive in the Church. After my view was first challenged but a Conditionalist, it took me a couple of years before I was willing to finally sit down and really study it out for myself.
Conditionalists do not view Hell as a place where unbelievers suffer unending torment for all eternity. That would require eternal life, which is a gift reserved only for those who accept Christ as Savior. It is "conditioned" upon having one's name listed in the Lamb's Book of Life. A Conditionalist believes that the punishment for sin is death. Period.
The second death is final death, rather than eternal conscious torment and separation from God. The penalty for the unbeliever is not eternal punishing. It is eternal punishment - or death from which one can't come back. For those who believe different degrees of punishment are reserved for the unbeliever depending on the severity of their sin, the method by which judgment is carried out could vary. The Bible isn't clear on it. But the punishment will ultimately end in complete, final, utter destruction.
While I don't believe it is salvific, I have come to embrace this doctrine. As the acceptance of the Doctrine of Election cleared up difficulties in understanding scripture, the conditional view of the nature of Hell has had a similar effect.
I would love to hear a similarly spirited debate on this topic.
I applaud you all for being able to have a conversation & even disagree and not see either of you step outside of the character of Christ. What I'd like to know is, what is the significance of attaching ourselves to a particular "sect" within the body... I attend a non-denominational church. We teach the word of God as it is written, and according to the word, Christ is coming back for ONE body of people speaking the same thing, which is the TRUTH, not any particular doctrine. Right?!
An enjoyable discussion. On the life insurance issue, the simple fact is, God's will is still God's will. In the end he makes choices regarding His children's health. Pstr. Price's point is great. why would our faith matter to the sovereign God? Answer: because of free will. he is not a God of robots, we must CHOOSE to believe him just as Adam chose to accept the fruit. God did not ordain the fall. The very nature of free will is evidence that God ordains nothing but what is good.
Please Pray for Me Jason Morris, and My Mother Silvia Skrabl and her Friend Brigitte Reichholf that God will bless us and protect us and do supernatural things for US in JESUS NAME !
Michael Fowler - Thank you brother! Another brother who understands biblical anthropology.
I'm reformed and I didn't see you compromise at all.I believe like you that many people are true Christians in spite of their denominations because they are really just ignorant.I also believe that if they have the Holy Spirit He will teach them the truth before they die.
This is what all leader and believer should discuss!
Wow Pastor Woods, great job in this debate. God bless your heart. I live in Lowell MA, and I would love if you could possibly come to the church in which I attend (small Brazilian church) and preach the word. Take care
Very glad to see two brothers exercising biblical principles in this fashion.
The hardest thing I struggled with for years, as an Arminian, was the idea that God would 'send' people to hell. Once God began to reveal the beauty and truth of His sovereignty, it was clear to see that mankind has rejected God completely, and DESPITE our rebellion, He has chosen a people for His glory. I used to think that people were seeking God in the wrong places (religions, cults, etc), but I now see that we seek ONLY to exalt ourselves and satisfy our own desires.
Apart from Christ, we are all guilty. There is nothing we can do to save ourselves. The faith we have to profess Christ, was GIVEN. 2 Thessalonians 2:13; But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. Phillippians 1:6; And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. God begins and ends the work of our salvation.
When we deny God's sovereignty, we deny that He is God at all.
Awesome dialogue but the only comment I would make in regards to the 'having enough faith for healing' topic is the following. In 2 Corinthians chapter 12 Paul (who was an awesome man of God and had tons of faith) 'pleaded' with the Lord to have the thorns taken away from him, "But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” It wasn't the Lords will to heal Paul
This is still a great conversation and many need to see it !!! And the second part also.
I am presently researching false teaching and heresies in the church. I am not a Pastor, actually I grew up with a Catholic mother, Hindu Father, and for a short time attended an Islamic school (i know, I know... a real hodge-pot of false teachings) anywho, long story shortened, my Mom and Dad are now born again. I actually stumbled across this by accident only today and was blown away to hear you guys chatting about this. It was good, but I agree with you our authority is the Bible in all thing
When he said, "I was never taught that," it was powerful. That was the perfect moment for someone, who can relate, to say, "Neither was I." That's where empathy comes in. Studying the bible can't teach you that. Nobody taught me election or predestination, I read it. I don't believe what every Calvinist presumes to know based on a few truths they've discovered. I don't agree with everything this Reformed pastor said. We all have to understand for ourselves and not because we were out-argued.
I love this. Our differences, but still united in conversations.
After realizing the depth of the sovereignty of God, the predestination discussion is no longer a burden to understand. We puny humans get ourselves wrapped up in the fact of choice - PFFFFFFT!!!! We have a merciful and gracious God who ALLOWS us to make a choice. People trip on the elect vs those that are not because they fail to understand that in God's all knowing, He KNOWS the choice we will make under any circumstance and as such I believe this is why there are those who are not elect who go to hell; God knew/knows what decision they would make in any circumstance. He knows who will choose Him and who will not. I cannot think of a verse that depicts what I have said here, so pardon my speculation. Please, do not quote me, brethren, I am just sharing my thoughts on a very complex discussion. God bless.
Also, it was pretty evident that Pastor Woods is not only a student of the Word but that he is very knowledgeable of the Word of Faith and the certain scriptures that usually get used when someone tries to defend the Word of Faith.
Thoroughly enjoyed this dialogue.
Pastor Price definitely has been preaching recently on tv to justify his point in this discussion and even spoke of you in a respectful way. I believe all things are predestinated by GOD, JESUS was slain before the foundations of the earth revelation 13:8