I went to Algeria in the late 1980s, I had occasion to speak to a police officer, which I did in French, his reply was 'Quelle nationalite êtes-vous?' I said 'Anglais' and he said 'Bon!'. I could feel the hostility drain away.
Now things are different French citizens are visiting Algeria very often of course you'll find some people who hate the French but they represent a small minority
Conversely I heard a black American woman visit France, who waited in line for a crepe. When it was her turn and she ordered a crepe, the server spoke rudely to her, but made the crepe. Then the server tried to charge double what he charged the previous customer. When she asked why the server was being so mean, the server suddenly realized the woman was speaking with an American accent. Until that moment, the server had assumed she woman was Algeria, and decided that he hated her. But when he realized she was American, he charged her the regular price.
@@AxiomTutor I don’t believe this story at all. Black, French people are everywhere in France and to misjudge someone so badly, would be very dangerous and explosive potentially. No one would dare be so brazen in a public sphere. Also Algerians are not Black so no one would mistake someone speaking English, almost certainly, who is Black, with an Algerian, almost all of whom are Caucasian people and speak French regardless. Lastly, having spent a great deal of time in France this entire scenario is simply implausible. The French-are extremely polite, contrary to myths to the contrary popular in the US and hold no animus against Algerians unless they are illegal, militant, or seek to undermine French culture and civilization, which would apply to anyone actually. This is an issue in the South primarily, in Marseille specifically, with its large militant, Algerian community.
My grandfather was literally decapitated and his limbs were cut of and thrown In valley by the French, he got buried at the spot his remains were found by local women and After independence he got relocated to the local graveyard specialised for martyrs . Personally I don't hold any grudge against the French as my religion believes that the son doesn't bear the sins of the father but thinking that if the colonialisation lasted a little longer that could have been my parents ، older siblings or my fate .
What is your view on what has happened in Algeria since the French left in 1962? Are you satisfied with the Algerian Government and how they have developed the country. As a foreigner looking at Algeria from the outside, I see many disturbing and disappointing things.
@@maginot2u I'm disappointed and I don't consider the current government legitimate ,as a Kabyle personally some forces in the current government are trying to push us into Separation and get Autonomy but the majority of Kabyles (inside Algeria) aren't buying it as it's just a hoax(a self made scape goat)to clear the real opposition,but the movement is growing thanks to being backed by the Algerian Intelegence system(DRS).
Well, my grandfather, working as a radio opperator for the navy and located in Tunisia at the time, saw many french soldiers' bodies coming back in similar conditions, bearing scars of herendous mistreatments. Some had been his buddies... My point is, there was hatred and aweful results of it on both sides. I've seen many people painting one side white and the other black, be it the french or the algerian side, but the truth is that, as ofthen, reality is extremly nuanced and doesn't fit into such simple views. I fear that, if France was to appologise for its past misdeeds, Algeria and many algerians alike wouldn't have the maturity to acknowledge their own as well, sawing the seeds of even more discord than just maintaining the status quo.
@@maginot2u well the many disappointments you mentioned are far better than the injustice cause in frensh rule, many of which even frensh officers mentioned with pride in their journals
@@yaziri7 That may be. Still it's a real shame that independence has not brought democracy and freedom to Algeria. Things could have been so much better.
Another excellent video! My understanding of Algeria's history is a bit basic, and I didn't really understand how current or deep the bad feelings between Algeria and France are. Thanks again for the thorough briefing on a fascinating topic!
Outstanding analysis. The politics of France have always been eye opening related to the strident political differences, and how they can co-exist in a single political entity. The issue of the war in Algeria highlights the internal political dynamics of France, and the fervently held feelings as well as France's imperial chauvinism contrasted against its profound liberalism. In this case it seems that this "internal" French political conflict played out violently in Algeria. Given the current internal politics of France it would seem Algeria will continue to be a giant "Pink Elephant" in the room that no one will talk about. So Algerian & Franch relations will continue to be contentious. Thanks for this great video and your efforts to objectively analyze difficult topics. 👍
Thank you so much Andrew. This was a topic that I had really wanted to cover as the Algerian War of Independence was probably the most brutal colonial conflict. And it is incredible to see the affect that it has had on both countries, even sixty years later.
Well I don't think Algerians will forget what happened in the past because it was really brutal, in the same time I don't think France will ever apologize because it will open the hell doors and other colonies will ask for the same, as an algerian I don't want an apology I want Algeria to be strong and have an equal relationship with France we are not a French colony anymore in fact we need to work on ourselves and make our country great with many reliable allies and partners 😀
I met many Algerians, many say that they don't like French people (not necessarily hate them), and France is a parasitic country, look at sahel African countries, they are kept poor by the French, isn't this a good reason to keep france as a normal country than an ally?
@@wasssssuppppppp you are never experiencing the bad things that happened back then. Algerians are. Algeria was much richer comparatively, that before the French colonial invasion, Algeria was loaning France, although France held much more colonies in the Americas. Then France invaded Algeria, abolished the loans, took the treasury, killed the rulers, rich people and educated populations, humiliated Algerian women, nuked it's deserts and experienced nuclear impact on human by Algerian bodies near villages, and those people are still suffering. In fact, many parts of the effiel tower were brought from Algeria. They killed, imprisoned and tortured educated people of Algeria. Imagine just all these never happened. Ok, imagine only Algerian money wasn't stolen and was invested, there is a very high chance Algerians would be richer than the french people in per capita terms. How devastating, and still French politicians call Algeria (a country created by France) rejecting the fact that Algeria existed many centuries ago and humiliating Algerians in France.
@@Omer1996E.C well there is no doubt that there was crimes I'm not denying that I'm saying it's the past and I don't care much about the past I'm looking for a brighter future for my country were Algeria will be strong and prosperous, my point is that we need to get out of the French influence and make other reliable allies from all over the world 🌎
An outstanding analysis as always, this topic always impacts me as an Algerian, and you never disappoint me James in giving objective analysis. The Algerian issue will always be an elephant in the room for the French, and it's a deep scar in the Algerian tissue. The apology isn't looming in the air anyway, but things seem to be moving. Wether they apologize or no ...the damage remains. I wish a better future to all the people who were colonized.
Thank you very much indeed. I really wanted to look at Algeria given the significance of this year. It was such a devastating conflict, and yet seemingly so little known or understood more widely. (By the way, if you know anyone who might be interested in the video, please do share it more widely.)
Don't you think that France has been generous to Algeria, by allowing thousands of Algerians to immigrate to France? There are about half a million persons of Algerian descent living and making their livlihood in France. And they are far better off than most Algerians living in Algeria.
@@aymenbendjeddou6670 I know thare are still problems in France with accepting people of darker complexion and non French cultural background. But in the end it comes down to..... would you rather return to Algeria or stay in France? Most would say I'll stay in France.
One of the reason France was so adamant about keeping Algeria was because Algeria, unlike other French possesions/colonies in Africa, was considered an integral part of France both symbolically and legally. As French decolonization effort gathered steam and the former colonies in Africa gained independence in the late '50's to early '60's, the French attitude towards Algeria looked more and more like one of an oppressor to the outside world as in "They let all the other places go, why not Algeria?" This along with the increasing fractures in French society because of the war threatened to destroy Frances standing in the world, and so independence became De Gaulles way out. I would also assume, that De Gaulle probably didn't feel a lot of sympathy for the far-right groups advocating for Algeria to remain French. I mean, they did try to coup him twice and kill him once. Great informative video as always. Greetings from Aarhus, Denmark
It was not only a question of symbol. More than 1 Million of French people out 10 million of inhabitants lived there. There were too many Europeans who have been living there for more than a century. Algeria and France were both their country. So it was a very complex issue to solve.
@@henrydelabareyre8617 why would you test nukes on your land when you have colonies? As far as I know, america and the ussr didn't have any so they did it on their soil, france however...
Algeria was intended as France 'Lebensraum' in Africa, that's why it was accorded the department status. The loss of France international prestige in 1950s following defeat at Dien Bien Phu , and withdrawal from Suez Crisis might in some way radicalize both French and Algerians..
Thank you for these valuable information, There was a couple of points that I wished you touched on, like the nuclear tests carried out in the south of Algeria and the Algerian soldiers who fought alongside the French army in the front lines during WW2.
I think your final words perfectly summarise the prospective relationship between France and Algeria. Anyways, a concise, well formulated video as always.
Thanks. I had wanted to do this as this year marks the 60th anniversary of independence. But it has indeed received very little international coverage.
Glad to have found your channel! One of those rare days when the UA-cam algorithm recommends something worth watching! Look forward to watching more of your content in the future!
Excellent video , I beleive France should say sorry but this will never happen as France would then be obliged to say sorry to all the other countries that were under French colonial rule . I wish you would do a video on Africa's former colonial powers who are still in control of Africa's mineral wealth and looks likely they'll never let go .
Thanks Roddy. Very good point. I think the precedent argument does indeed affect these things too. And thanks for the excellent suggestion. I’ll mark it down.
The corrupt ruling elites are also part of the problem, as they collaborated/in the pay book of foreign corporations to enjoy quick easy wealth for personal consumption and gaining political support, with little thought on local development.
It surprises me that, despite the bloody war of independence, so many Algerians migrated to France and the French let them. Algerians could not live with the French in Algeria, but they could live with them in France? Had I a violent separation from somebody, I would not continue cohabiting while simply changing addresses. Brigitte Bardot expressed a similar sentiment.
No surprise, independent Algeria is a kelptocracy that only survives on the gas reserves that they have thanks to the french colonial borders and discovery and on using the colonial victimism to explain everything wrong in the country. Without the millions in France the civil war would have been sooner and far more bloody and maybe a end for the algerian regime.
@@khairulhelmihashim2510 That is an overly intellectual distinction. There was visceral hate there and bad blood remains. Maybe Algeria could have allowed France to send millions of settler to it provided it was sovereign and independent to accept them. Does that sound likely?
@@Jorjgasm this is stupidity. France is accepting Algerians because they are good, educated, cheap, French speaking labour forces. If it was really accepting for Algerian good, they would have gave Algerians more freedom, especially in religious terms that they lack
I am honestly thankful I found your channel. I personally was not aware of the strained relationship between Algeria and France and to learn of such fascinating history is mostly humbling. Thank you.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I really enjoy making these videos. They are often a great chance for me to a closer look at fascinating issues that don't perhaps get a lot of coverage.
One of my grand-parents was killed by French troops He left my grandma with her 2 yo son " who's my dad " and another son who wasn't born yet " my only uncle " his youngest brother was killed too He didn't leave any children My other grandfather managed to stay alive during the revolutionary War He has pictures in the 50s back when he was a soldier fighting the French to liberate his country He speaks proudly about his experience I really wanted to meet my other grandfather too Personally as someone who's parents were directly affected by this occupation I know France is not gonna say sorry And their sorry is not gonna change anything It's not gonna Bring my grandfather to live to raise his child or the other 1.5 million who's France killed during the revolution I just want em to stay away from my country and stop interfering with our country Personally I'd never forgive France for what it did even if they paid trillions of dollars Cause one human life worth much more than that Let alone 1.5 million
Thanks for sharing that. Absolutely fascinating (I hope you do not find that trite or condescending it's not meant to be) to hear your story. I have never really understood why France had the attitude it had to Algeria. I am aware of the 'reasons' for invasion and of the large numbers of French who settled in Algeria but the French stubbornness exceeded even the British over India. Britain left India in a total mess but there was not quite the viciousness which France inflicted. I am not sure why the French had the attitude that Algeria was simply France, just another province of France. For the most part (Modi aside - if that's possible) Indians seem reasonably well disposed to Britain (look at our NHS) however France seemed to have squandered such a relationship with Algeria. Very odd.
Thank you professor for this very informative presentation. I understand the connection many make between apologizing and reparations and I think if there were a way to apologize without leaving the reparations door open, it would probably come sooner, rather than later.
Thanks a lot. I think you are completely right. Countries appear to become extremely nervous if they think there will be significant costs associated with any apology.
I am not sure politicians from both sides are really willing to change the status quo: - French politicians would lost their far right wing which is pretty important and reparations would mean spending tax payers money and risky politically speaking, so a lot prefer to say that « you know, there were good things as well in the colonisation » - Algerian politicians would lose a common « excuse » for their lack of results, especially economic results, mostly due to their incompetence/corruption. They prefer keep saying it’s because of « what the French took us during occupation »
The Algerians would lose nothing. An apology wouldn't be the end of the legacy of colonization either. But I think you are right it would cost a lot to any french politician to do that
Frankreich stahl 2.200 Milliarden Dollar aus Algerien und schloss viele Fabriken und Unternehmen, wie Sonacom, das den ersten Platz bei der Rallye Dakar 1980 gewann.Viele Algerier verloren ihre Jobs.
@@FOLIPE I didn’t say the Algerians would lose something. I said the Algerian POLITICIANS would lose something (their excuse for their lack of results, etc…)
A few remarks : - Algeria's population is not mainly of Berber and Arabic descent, it is a melting pot including a substantial part of Anatolian (Turkish...) descent, because of the large garrison the Turkish empire maintained in Alger, garrison whose member "married" locally, but where forbidden to bring back their spouses or children when they went back to Anatolia at the end of their service time. Arabic population influx (ie. from Arabic peninsula) is limited in the Maghreb. - In the 1830-1852 period, French occupation of Algeria was mainly due to French fears of a possible British colonisation of Egypt, due to the weakening of the Turkish Empire. I sincerely believe that this occupation was negotiated with (accepted by ?...) Turkey, because it allowed French government to position, and to acclimate, French troops near Egypt as a menace against British troops that might intervene to conquer Egypt. In those years, French government was very active in helping Egyptian government to acquire modern European agricultural and military technologies. British colonisation of Egypt looked quite possible in the 1830' and would have been catastrophic for both France and Turkey. - In those years, there was a short supply of grain in Europe, and Algeria had huge good farmlands that were not cultivated due to cultural and organisational issues of the Turkish Empire. From a Turkish perspective, it might have been a reasonable trade-off to let France occupy part of those farmlands in exchange for technological transfers and some military arguments against Britain just in case.... - I don't really believe French occupation of Algeria in the 1830-1852 period was particularly "brutal" compared to the history of Maghreb in the previous generations. I understand there were large famines, but such famines also existed in previous generations and there were no surplus of grain in Europe or reasonable means of transports that might have prevented those famines. Best solution was to imports European agricultural technologies and farmers, which is what the Frenchmen did in that time. - I understand that there was some influx of European population in the 1830-1852 period, then a very limited influx in the 1852-1871 period and a large influx in the 1871-1900 period, but that this European population included much more Spaniards, Italian or Maltese than native Frenchmen. It looks like, between 1830 and 1852, France was in good connection with Turkey to do what looked reasonable to oppose British expansionism in the Mediterranea, then between 1852 and 1871, France frose the situation to avoid too much confrontation with Britain, and between 1871 and 1900, French governments advertised Algeria as a kind of promised land for poor Frenchmen for electoral purposes, having abandoned any serious idea of confronting Britain in the Mediterranea (the problem might also have been considered as much less acute than in the 1830'...). - I understand that in 1900, France (Parisians...) had mixed feelings about Algeria. On one hand they believed that it might serve as a link between Europe and the Middle-East & sub-Saharan Africa, both commercially and culturally. On the other hand, they considered that Algeria low GNP per habitant, even when limited to Algeria's "pieds-noirs" population, prevented any possibility of real unification between France and Algeria, short or long term. I guess they believed in a future independent Algeria under the leadership of its pied-noirs population, and they let this population rule that country to a large extent. They were surprised to find that Pieds-Noirs and indigenous Algerian could not find any kind of reasonable compromise, and, in 1962, they did what the US governments of the time asked for to close the file. 60 years later, most Frenchmen don't feel very concerned by this story. Personally, I think that French presence in Algeria was positive between 1830 and 1871, and that it should have evolved toward much less European immigration and more autonomy after 1871, concluding in the 1930' or 1950' with some kind of peaceful independence, keeping most of its (much more limited...) pieds-noirs population. Diplomacy, French electoral marketing and a few errors after 1871 prevented that.
Thank you so much Peter. Please don’t worry about it. I know times are hard for people. Any and all support is really appreciated. The likes and comments are always appreciated enormously and really help in their own right! Take care and keep well.
As an Irishman I can understand the feelings of the Algerian people towards their former rulers and wanting an apology. I do believe the French should give an apology, but I do not believe they should have to pay reparations. As much as I'd love an apology from the British government for what they did in my country I do not want their money. We have been forging closer relations between Dublin and London for decades now. It has massively eased tensions between our governments and has benefited both our peoples. As much as I believe France should apologise I do think Algeria should forge closer relations regardless, be the bigger person so to speak. It would benefit both countries and may move France closer to giving that well deserved apology.
If only the study of genocide could be left to serious historians. Too often we see countries using the claim of genocide against their rivals as a way of marginalising their opponents. Essentially the drive behind the genocide recognition is personal gain which is extremely selfish and in fact detrimental to the cause. France for example has been on the forefront of the Armenian genocide recognition campaign whilst casually ignoring the atrocities it committed in Algeria. When Macron demands Turkey apologize, many in the Middle East and the wider Muslim world can sense the hypocrisy and this has raised conspiracy theories regarding if the Armenian genocide even happened or if this is another tool for the former colonial powers to pressurise non-European countries.
Muslim? Regarding the Armenian genocide, muslims condemn it and we call it unislamic. It was the ottoman empire killing arabs, kurds, Armenians and others during it's last years to try to stop internal problems as external wars were devastating them.
Armenian Genocide has been confirmed and definitely existed, don't try to shamelessly deny it it's pathetic. Many experts agree on the systematic execution of the Christian minorities in the Ottoman Empire: Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians suffered genocide, as per the study of experts (go check wiki yourself honestly) and the def online
Because Germany was occupied, raped and thoroughly humiliated by the Americans, British and the Russian in 1945. Basically a slave apologizing to its masters.
Germany almost single-handedly caused two world wars and directly carried out the greatest genocide in human history, the Algerian War doesn't come close to any of that.
@@amei653 It's not only the scale of crimes, the difference is also that there is wrong on both sides in the case of the Algerian war. What would be good would be for both governments to agree on a mutual apology, but that is not about to happen since so far only France has worked significantly on examining its past and did the most to recognise its guilt. In Algeria on the other hand the anti-French discourse remains an electoral business, the memory of the Algerian war is instrumentalised by the regime who has created a heroic, sacrificial tale which says nothing about the crimes comitted by the separatists.
This war is so under talked about. I think the time period it and the french indochina war were faught in probably contributes to that. The 50s and 60s were witness to the rise of the cold war, the Korean war, and the beginnings of the vietnam war. The end of French colonialism is criminally overlooked
@@uschurch they were forced. Either die, or pay. This was the thing, it was and still is harsh. It is still colonialism. You Europeans support it because it supports your economies and currency. We are suffering from it. You don't know the feeling of living on 2000 usd a year. You get at least 20 times more income a year
I don't believe the Algerian Regime has ever asked for an Apology by the french governments over the years. But what the Algerian Government has done is ask the French Authorities to hand over contamination maps of regions where nuclear tests were conducted. They also asked for reperations for the vicitms of said tests. Neither demand has been awnsered. The Algerien Government has also asked that Algerian Corpses held by the french be handed over, which to the french government's credit they did do. In summary, the Algerian Government does not seem to want an apology, but rather tangible support from the French Authorities. The entire 'France needs to apologize' thing seems to be a narrative mainly existing in France itself. It seems that the French People are indecisive on how to handle the legacy they have left behind. When Macron ordered the excellent Historian Benjamin Stora to write about the War of Independance and how to deal with it appropiately, there was no coordination with the Algerian Authorities or Historians. When Macron aplogized to Harkis there was no pressure from Algiers to do so. When Macron met with young french algerians and expressed his views about Algeria (which is where he made the claims of Algeria not being a nation before colonization), there was no pressure from the Algerian Government to do so. Algerian-French Relations were fine at the time. The Evidence strongly suggests to me, that a French Apology is not an Algerian Demand (as I have said, the Algerian Government has never demanded an apology and also I have yet to meet an algerian who wants one) but rather a domestic demand by French Algerians and the French Left.
Algeria: Will France ever apologise to me? England: * hides under the chair * Turkey: * goes to the bathroom * Russia: * leaves room * The only country who has owned up to what it has done is Germany. I know about what Japan did in China and Korea during World War 2 and they prefer not to talk about this. Turkey sees the Ottoman times as a golden age, the Balkans and Middle East disagree. England focuses on the good in colonialism when talking about it. Russia, everything it did to half of Europe is completely justified and they are proud of it. Germany was a special case because it was so badly humiliated after the war, they actually lost which played a factor (USSR was just as bad but they actually won, so no baddies) and the Holocaust is the most popular genocide (Turkey to this day denies the Amrmenian genocide, they actually won their war of independence). Even smaller states like Hungary & Romania who kept alive the Jews inside Hungary proper/Romania proper but sent to deathcamps the Jews inside newly acquired territories after 1939 (Romania didn't acknowledge what they did in Transnistria & Bessarabia to Jews up to 2003, and in Hungary Miklos Horthy is a hero to this day despite of what he has done in Northen Transylvania, Vojvodina and Ruthenia to Jews even before the Arrow-Cross take over in 1944). Non-ironically, I think for a country to feel sorry they need to do bad things and lose completely the war in which they did those bad things (but not always, Japan).
@@bigboyrambo2009 Bro, the Armenian Genocide. Literally the genocide that Hitler took inspiration from to make the holocaust, because the Turks got away with it. And the Ottomans did rule the Balkans and Middle Eaast exactly how evil satanic western European empires ruled Africa.
@@catalinmarius3985 You know the winners of war write the history books? You know Zionist rule over Germany? You know Zionist rule over America? You know Zionist rule over most of Europe? What you know about ww2 is what the Zionist have told you about ww2? Why don't the historians speak about what happened to Armenians in ww1?
Many colonial empire have not Apologised for their deeds. UK, France,Japan, Turkey are some examples. Some of them use words like regret but never straightforward apologize. It hurts pride of the nation and politician will surely loose their seats and face huge criticism in their home country
The colonial powers wanted control their colonies at any cost. When Britain and France faced the invading Nazis they recruited native troops to fight against Germans. They wanted freedom for themselves but not their colonies. French war in Algeria was brutal and bloody and left deep scars.
Thanks for another interesting video professor! What’s my opinion on the question posed? Hmm there’s definitely a lot of layers to this As others have commented, it’s easy to understand why France went to such drastic, and eventually brutal, lengths to keep Algeria, especially in the wake of continued terror attacks on French-controlled areas as the war heated up; similar wars happened in other European colonies that had been made a full part of the mother state and/or had large settler populations. I would make an analogy in the English-speaking world to a situation where Hawaiian Communists started a guerilla war for independence at the height of the Cold War: it’s fair to say some parts of the ensuing counterinsurgency might be unsavory, as unfortunate as that is. France’s hesitation to accept the legitimacy of the movement that represented independence, the FLN, even after independence was conceded, which had shown Communist leanings, was understandable especially given the context of the time. That French hesitation about the FLN has proven to be somewhat prudent as the Algerian regime that was set up has been a continual international problem over the years, nationalizing French and other foreign companies, allying with the Gaddafi regime in Libya, opposing America’s presence in Morocco, and continually antagonizing Morocco through various means including pipeline diplomacy and through its Polisario clients fighting against Morocco in the Sahara. Although it had to reform somewhat, the Algerian regime survived the Soviet collapse, even outlasting their other ally Gaddafi in Libya, and to this day it continues to engage in its cold war with Morocco and to an extent with Europe. I think that if drastic change were to occur in Algeria, and the new leadership came to a detente with Morocco and an end to the Sahara conflict, the opportunity would be there for much-increased engagement with Europe as a whole and France specifically, although given the long and complicated history and the sensitivities involved I don’t think a French apology would be proper nor, from what I can tell, is it sought. Anyway I don’t want to ramble on more than I already have, I guess I can’t really answer the title question directly as there is so much grey area in both directions but as I said I at least lean towards “no”, France is not obligated to issue a public apology, but that doesn’t mean not to acknowledge the extrajudicial killings and detentions. Thanks again professor for providing a fact-based forum for these conversations to take place!
Thank you LocalLt. You can always be relied on to offer an extremely well-thought out and interesting take on things. It is indeed a complex question. Made all the more complicated by the distinct elements within the story, including the fate of the Harkis. I didn't tackle the current regime in Algeria, but this is obviously also an interesting and important point of friction. I must try to come back to this. In the meantime, have a great rest of the weekend.
Algerians have nothing to gain from an apology. It was war and we won. In the other hand, they need to compensate and return Algeria's archive still kept by France.
Professor James Ker-Linsay, your analysis on the Algerian colonial history by France is accurate and well explained. Few comments however: 1- Many French born citizens supported the FLN either in France or in Algeria. They were called "porteurs de valises" or "luggage carrier" (because they were often smuggling money or arms for the FLN). Many paid of their life and their sacrifice should not be forgotten. 2- France will in my view apologise to turn the page with Algerian being at full peace with France as a state (not people of France who cannot be blamed for this colonial tragedy). Macron and Tebboune are paving the way for a "scientific" approach for a joint history that cannot be disputed by politicians. 3- The era pre-1830 could have been a bit more explained as the reasoning for France's attack of the Regency of Algiers are known and Benjamin Stora (a well-known historian in France) has provided an explanation on this matter and it is debt related from the Napoleon's wars and for Charles X to remain in power. Other than the above, great work again 👏
On the 1830 invasion, the thing that pushed the invasion was also the Barbary pirates, it was pretty dumb considering much of the pirates weren't even supported by the Algiers government, and some would even raid Algerian and Ottoman ships, but it was a cassus beli that the French used against us
@@algerianmonarchist8017 I find somehow strange that an "Algerian Monarchist" is voicing the same theories than these from the French far right knowing that Hussein Dey has by 1820 established peace treaties with the United States, the UK and most of the European Countries with exception of France because of the wheat debt owed by France that was not paid by 1827 when French Consul Deval was still denying or mocking the debt when asked by Hussein Dey. This exchange led as we all know to the "fan incident". Thinking about it, I actually doubt you are actually Algerian.
Thanks so much. Good points. All I would say is that I usually tend to skirt over too much of the history of a conflict in most of my videos. This is partly because I focus on the here and now as a channel looking at international relations and partly because it opens up all sorts of other problems. If you include one thing, then why not another? Most usually, the history of a conflict has very little bearing on the present - as much as people often think otherwise. (And I say this as someone who wrote a doctoral thesis that would really qualify as international history.) The key issues at the heart on most contemporary conflicts are more often than not rooted in modern international politics and international law than in history. History tends to make addressing those problems that much more difficult.
@@JamesKerLindsay Great perceptive from a geopolitical point of view. I have seen another video on western sahara and you clearly understand the origin of this issue, international law and the consequences today. Your unbiased views on geopolitics are commendable. 👏 👍👏
As someone from Algeria, it really doesn't matter, when the current generals apologize for the late 90s war crimes, then even the Byzantines and Ottomans will say sorry, but as long as criminals runs this country we will never regain our dignity. No one will respect you if you keep humiliating yourself decade after decade.
I've always remembered a line, starkly proclaimed, from a short film on French expansion into north Africa: "France on both sides of the Mediterranean!". For me it encapsulated the arrogance and brutalism of colonialism. How can any civilized government not apologize for the conquest and subjugation of a foreign people?
It's not hard to understand why they don't appologize: they see what they did, conquest in general, as normal, and don't want to set it appart from other conquest done before or by other people. As civilized as we modern humans are, we still have tribalism, and these debates often fall back to attacks based on widly different interpretations of historic events
Because it's far more complex. Before the independence there were more than 1 Million of European people living in Algeria. It was really France with French cities like Oran, Constantine... These people were brutally forced to leave for France at the end of the war. Algerian will never excuse itself for having robbed their houses, and killed some of their members. War in Algeria was extremely brutal with use of terror against Algerian and European by the nationalists. Though Atrocities have been committed by both sides. France really developed Algeria during the colonisation and created it from scratch. That's why giving excuses is useless and actually an humiliation as it would say that France is evil and responsible for everything bad that happens today in the country. The Algerian government also won't recognise its crimes and its failure to rule the country. Algerian government is a complete failure to manage well the country, accusing always France for the bad in the country. Politically if Macron gives Official excuses, he will be literally loathed by a very large part of the population which doesn't consider French history in Algeria as completely bad. Hope it helps to better understand the issue.
Let's not even talk about France's overseas territories. Let's focus on France first. France used to have loads of regional languages until they got suppressed in favour of standard French.
Well it's worth considering the fact that one of the reasons for the conquest of Algeria was to stop Barbary pirates from kidnapping French people and selling them into slavery, something which the Regency of Algiers sanctioned and grew very rich from. This had been a problem for all of Europe for centuries, with millions of people being kidnapped in raids and sold into slavery. The French saw permanent occupation of the region as the means by which they would end this practice.
Should, yes -- in any sense that one should apologize for murder and abuse. Apology may not be the only thing in order, though. Seems highly relevant, also, to the assassination of Moire in Haiti. I believe not very long ago, The Daily described the ways in which Moire wanted to publicize the debt payments that France continued to collect from Haiti for its independence, even until very recently. And a demand for returning debt payments. Making his mysterious assassination very suspicious, given France's treatment of its former colonies ... On the one hand, that's some heavy speculation. On the other, does France deserve the benefit of doubt? It's history, and even its current behavior, makes it hard to think so.
Yes France should apologize Algeria needs to apologize too for their past and by that I mean the events which preceded the French colonisation of algeria and such events consists of the enslavement of not only French but several other Europeans, in short Barbary slave trade.
Good morning James, Great analysis and loved hearing your opinion on it. I would give my thought on how I see it as a French person. I do agree with Président Macron when he said colonialism in Algeria was a crime against humanity (then candidate Macron) and yes, I do see that it is unlikely for there to be an apology right now though I think that would be the eventual course of action - for unfortunately, the far-right Rassemblement National is the single largest opposition party right now (and the biggest misfortune we have right now is that they are seen as the only 'opposition' voice) - and this party was nothing more than something that was founded against de Gaulle's policy and subsequently absorbed many members of the organisation armée secrète after the war. Considering the reliance of the Borne government on RN for passing some legislation, for sure they would fear a backlash had the président made any remark on that regard. I see some level of acknowledgement for crackdown on peaceful protests in the 50s and 60s in Metropolitain France, which though not enough, is a step in the right direction). One could be pedantic about if it was a case of decolonisation or secession (considering how Algeria was a part of France and not a colony - and was administered just like how Corsica or any other département of France is done today), regardless, that was a project headed for failure and to cement it as an 'integral part of France, crimes against humanity were committed). It should never have been done. For now there seems to be some opposito While there is political tension, I do feel the people to people relation is good (based on my limited experience in interacting with Algerians or people of Algerian descent and a vibrant Algerian community in most major French cities) and that should pave way for reconciliation in the future. On that note, have you read the works of Albert Camus ? (himself from a settler family, second generation) - and I like his book l'étranger (the foreigner ? ), though fictional, shows the clear disconnect between settlers and natives. Have a good Sunday
Thank you so much Anirudh. I was really looking forward to hearing your take on it. Great points about the current political atmosphere in France. That is really helpful additional information. Thanks. And brilliant point about whether it was decolonisation or secession. I should really look at this in more detail in another video. It is a fascinating question. I would say decolonisation, but I can certainly see how it could be secession. There are some interesting parallels with Russia. It is essentially a colonial empire that never decolonised, but any attempt by colonised people to try to break away is not seen a secession. (I also know a few who would argue the same about the UK.) Thanks for the tip about Camus. It is fascinating to see how the political, social and cultural landscape in France has been so profoundly affected by the experience of Algeria. Have a great rest of the weekend too!
@@JamesKerLindsay Hello James, glad that I could be of some help. Whether the discussion on whether it is decolonisation or secession is something academic to me but does not make a difference considering what was done. Personally I see it as secession, but a secession that ought to have been done and I see parallels with Ireland for instance - where a place was taken over and made part of the more dominant country, where the majority of the place were treated as second class citizens - and Ireland in 1922 is seen as secession. I am not an expert on these topics but the way I say it for UK - India is a case of decolonisation, Ireland a case of secession. France - Senegal is decolonisation, Algeria was secession. Regardless of the terminology, it does not excuse what these two former empires did there.
Thanks Anirudh. It is such an interesting discussion. Again, I might try to return to this. It could be very interesting to consider in the case of Russia.
@@JamesKerLindsay indeed, would love to look into that aspect and as you point out, Russia is an interesting case as for instance, none of the central Asian Republics are seen as a product of decolonisation though they were clearly, conquered and colonised by the Russian empire (on the other side, I'm sure the media is likely to report a hypothetical separation of French Guiana from France as 'decolonisation' - so wondering if being contiguous also plays a part to this discussion).
The only reason that decolonization was primarily peaceful was because most colonial powers were bankrupt by WW2. As far as an apology, just as the United States refuses to give an official apology to African Americans for slavery, France understands that an apology is a LEGAL admission of liability and therefore MUST pay monetary compensation
Love these videos, they illuminate a few of the many gaps in my recent history and political knowledge and prod me to learn a little bit more about countries I rarely think about, thank you!
Its absurd that the French claimed Algeria was an integral and equal part of France, whilst treating the locals as second class citizens. A stain on the nations history. However, a president who wasn't even born should not apologise for a crime he had no part in.
Maybe Algeria should start the ball rolling by apologising for the Barbary Corsairs, and all innocent French people who they killed, enslaved, etc for centuries.
I met a rich Morrocan guy who told that he grew up near an American base in Morroco. One day, he was hired by them for a very special and dangerous mission: first he received loads of bullets that he needed to cut the manufacturer name on each of them. After that, he had to bring the ammo clandestinely to the FLN in Algeria without being caught. He succeeded, returned alive to Morrocco and received tons of cash from the US. Several years after the war he visited France and even met officials that told him "We know what you did and we don't keep any hard feeling". He was never treated badly by the French. On the other hand, when he attempted to do the same in the US, every door was shut. In the context of the Cold war, France was draining resources from NATO for its own war. The US were so pissed that they supported both sides against De Gaulle: the far right OAS and the independentist FLN. Of course, this US policy grew bigger in the following decades with the Iran Contra affair for instance.
So according to this story....in the middle of the American war in Vietnam....Americans were supplying FLN forces against the French in Algeria. And this operative was "cutting the manufacturer name on them." Often bullets have the manufacturers name stamped on the bottom of the brass cartridge. Often they do not. But it would be nearly impossible for this individual to remove the manufacturer's name if it was stamped in by "cutting it."
Correction it’s was officially one and half million died and not one million. That’s was only in the 7 years war but that doesn’t reflect massacres done since 1832. I am from Algeria and lived the war and the independence as a kids I participated in that war almost killed by soldiers. No talks about the deep crimes caused by France and the barbaric schilling Algerians skulls trophies displayed in the Paris museum . Can you imagine Germany having displayed Jewish skull in Frankfurt museum ??? Hypocrites double standards discriminating so called civilized Christian world
Personally I see this as a case of actions speaking louder than words. Say, if France helps to alleviate the problems of colonization instead of a token apology. The dilemma is if youd rather whip up the French right or Algerians.
I am an Algerian citizen, my father is Algerian completely which is why i have it. I visited the country many times. my father is a bit of an ultranationalist. He was part of the military there. He told me that the FLN and Algerian Army practically invented algerian nationalism. The flag, song, and “national identity” was from the Military. All of this means, that national, political, and international politics of Algeria is filter through a government/military view. That means that Algerian citizens have the same general view as the military. The Algerians military is trained for counter-insurgency but also against a invading force from the north if you catch my drift. The Military doesn’t trust France so nor does the people. Not until the french apologizes, which is why they always demand it. Also most older, leading people remember the Algerian war so they wont forget, and the younger generations,educated by those older people, don’t remember but they wont forgive out of principle. Another reason is the harkis and french settlers that left Algeria after the war, the pied-noir, the black feet, the traitors, in Algerian militaries view.
Because the French Political Right make up a good chunk of the voting base, barring the major cities. French sentiments and politics go hand in hand… With the rise of French Nationalism, Macron knows the wolves are at his door.
If the algerians are going to apologize for the millions of europeans that were dragged into slavery or murdered by their corsairs, france should think about it, otherwise no. Algeria was conquered in a punitive war for the atrocities they commited and the danger they posed for global trade. It would be like germany rebelling against the occupying allies after ww2, it would be understandable, but not necessarily deserve sympathies
This brings into the perspective just how lucky the Dutch are. Theyd colonized Indonesia for 300 years yet the Indonesians bear no ill-feeling toward them.
Thanks. Great point. That is a really interesting story. I think it may have been because it happened fairly quickly after WWII and Japanese occupation. This may have wiped out a lot of the memory if Dutch rule. But it would be really interesting to look into it.
@@JamesKerLindsay well after WW2 and Japanese occupation ended the Dutch tried to colonize Indonesia again which spark the Indonesian War of Independence which i believe is among the bloodiest war in modern history. War crimes commited by both parties, guerilla war, making treaties breaking treaties, communist insurgence, islamist insurgence, untill the Dutch finally agreed to step away from Indonesia soil in 1949 as long as they were compensated. Yet the war rarely get mentioned in the international level eventhough it was the first war of independence against european colonial rule after WW2 and among the bloodiest, up to 600.000-1.500.000 people perished during the war which occured in less than 4 years (1945-1949), You really should look into it.
@@harukrentz435 Indeed. It really is a fascinating case. Again, I guess it may be because it happened so long ago and was tied up with the Second World War.
@@harukrentz435 , the reason your independence war rarely mentioned in international level, it because Dutch is not considered a great power since 19th century. Many westerners even amused by ability of Dutch to hold and rule millions of people in foreign lands thousand miles away, despite having a small, outdated military. The only reasons Dutch able to hold it is because belated nationalism movement (only started in 20th century), and no serious challenge from other great powers. Comparable to Belgian, Portuguese, and Spain situations in Africa/Asia.
Or most importantly: should France ever say sorry? There was no Algeria before the French and the country itself was a creation of the French administration. Even today Algeria is not a nation, but a country held together by its army. The peoples of Algeria (Arabs, Berbers, Tuaregs and Kabilas) are very violent themselves, and their historians always boasted of it. The violence of the war was brutal by both sides and got repeated in the 1990's during the Algerian civil war; will Algeria apologize for targeting civilians as their war strategy? Whenever Algeria has a problem, it blames either France or Morocco. Right after the French left, the new governament massacred in medieval fashion the Algerian harkis, killed its own revolutionary leaders in succession and them got into war with Morocco. The Pied Noirs were ordered to leave Algeria under the order "Either the valise or the coffin", so they could steal their property. Is Algeria going to apologize for that too?
Im french and i guess it will be polemic. I m not opposed to an apologize if it can releave a part of the difficult past the 2 nations share. But I have no trust in the algerian governement intrumentalizing the resentment of the algerian. What I see from my point of view is that the history is politicaly used in Algeria. On the other side no one can forgive without apologies. So I think the french people can apologize to the Algerian people without implicating both governments. And if the power change, is no more legitimate by the independance war, than why not ? And one day maybe the other side will apologize for the crime from the other side, more justified and less important but still crime and we could hope for a reconcilliation. But I don't think it will happen. You say sorry for you or for a recconcilliation. Algerian don't want to have something to do with us but want to have something from us. Then the only condition left is that we say sorry for us to feel in peace with that. I think it's enough important to do so but must be done in an intelligent way otherwise it will be used against us. And I personaly have done nothing to Algeria.
As an Algerian among the few last ppl who speaks french fluently and i have two of my uncles were tortured by the french military . i have nothing to expect from France but if apologizes have to be made it has to be the French state to the Algerian ppl, not French ppl to Algerian ppl because the french ppl have nothing to do in misdid of their government . perhaps time will heal but if france wants to keep a special tie with Algeria as Macron wants they should be more proactif .
Well I do not trust the french government as an Algerian since they too have weaponized the Algerian history for the vote... Macron did it a year ago before the elections and many other presidents did it in a way or another... Both France and Algeria have lobbies in their rulling system a party that wants to apologize in France and others that don't want to and in Algeria a large part that doesn't want relations with France until they apologize and another part that doesn't want to mix the economic and political relations with history... For now I see that in Algeria hate towards France has grown a lot especially when ppl were told that Bouteflika had close ties with France so now France is kinda the enemy, as for France the far right mouvement is leading and all the ancient french Algeria mouvement is trendy so I don't think things will get better or that France will apologize
Looking for a treaty for a singer instrument. France deducted lands from Algeria and gave them to Morocco. The area of these lands is equal to the size of Greece
Ridiculous, there were no algerian central state before the colonization and much less with the actual boundaries. THe only thing was the Regence of Algiers, a turkish client state that was the excuse for the barbary pirates to operate...
I think France has done a great job by allowing thousands of Algerians to immigrate to France where they live a much better life than if they had stayed in Algeria. That is better than an apology which is just words.
Algeria needs to get over this. Most Americans do not worry about getting an apology from the British. Are the Algerians blaming the French for the state of their country because France did not give them a "We're sorry"?
I feel so much international tension could be reduced by the former colonial empires apologizing and strengthening efforts to develop economic ties with their former colonial realms, rather than trying to continue to exploit the regions
As a Tunisian, I feel terribly sorry for all the millions of lives shattered by criminal France both in North Africa and the continent as a whole. However this bit at 9:07 is historically correct. There was never an official "algerian state" prior to France. In fact, the political and geographical landscape for the algerian state was erected by the Barbarossa brothers when they invaded Algiers, a small town during the early 16 century and made it the capital of a new ottoman vilaya. Prior to that, nothing was ever centered around Algiers nor indicative of an algerian state. Some historians like to debate that an "algerian nation" existed during the rule of Zayyanid dynasty but those were actually centered in modern western algeria around Tlemcen and never extended towards the east. So to sum up, Macron although we hate him in Tunisia, was completely accurate with that description. Whether and how that's relevant with the question of apology, I don't see how that's relevant. France must pay for its mistakes in Africa and it will. sooner or later. As you can notice, most Tunisians are shifting away from French education system.
Lol looks like a Moroccan narrative, Algeria did not exist , Mauritania did not exist, western Sahara did not exist therefore should be Moroccan territories...lol
@@milominderbinder6209 Well it's not his policy. The "elitists" in the Tunisian society still brag about speaking French. However the inner society and especially the younger generation is naturally shifting away to English, German, Italian and with that pushing for a Governmental mentality change. It's slow though as the older generation still dominates politics.
I think it's clear from the comments from Algerians here that even if France apologises, they won't accept it which makes the apology pointless. Imo, countries who are more focused on dwelling on the past than focusing on the future should just adopt a policy of peaceful coexistence similar to what the US and the USSR did during the cold war rather than continue these stupid and frankly pointless attempts at reconciliation that will dissolve when someone on the political right in gets in or someone who wants to bring up the past in gets in.
I suppose you'd say the same of Armenians, and that it isn't antisemitic if all the random claims of lost wealth and property stop causing money to be funneled to Israel stop?
@@hmmm3210 Yeah I would say the same because 1) Grievance mongering is a cancer upon humanity that leads to nothing but war and conflict (As Yugoslavia so eloquently showed) 2) Israel gets more than enough money through foreign aid from the US, EU and U.K. they don’t need anymore of it and so I could care less as to why Armenia does that or what it’s reasons are. Imo people need to realise that history is something to learn from and not dwell on and if we adopted that mindset we could cut down world tension by about 50% and end about 33% of all wars fought in the world. But unfortunately humans are inherently vengeance seeking creatures and so this will never happen. Not to mention that this is an easy tactic to get a failing politician’s approval ratings up and to help them win an election so it’s nothing but pure cynicism at the end of the day and its beyond stupid how people fall for it every single time
Repearing the past and solve it not keep it hidden I am Algeria ,the apologize not in word in action Fist there many algerian was expulsed to new calidonia ,there were eradicated from there parry and their family and now million Algerians in New Calédonie who are looking for their relative in Algeria but now data's exacts Many archives were taken from Algeria Also many Martyrs still not burry since 1850 and their cadaver in museum of human been in France ,they keep them for exhibition!!!!! As Muslim country burry the human been after dyeing is a minimum right We recieved only eleven cadaver of martyrs from five hundred cadavers declared (last year) 2021 November And until today we have people who die or accident to become handicap because of the mines planted in Algeria and we are removing them but still there are because the map is with France !!!! To count the total of Martirs we couldn't because the martirs from 1830 to 1954 is with france So how you justify all this And to recognisation of genocides Thousaand if Algeria burned in grot And and more than handred explosed in the mosque by france And the list is long .how we write our history if there is no recognization Lot of things in museum Louvre were stollen from Algeria. And and and and. And (Is nice to care about your children and offer them a good life and best food. Bit it should not from steal ,it should be from hard work )
France has no business apologizing. With this logic the entire world will continually apologize for everything and anything. Human history is brutal but it’s history.
Thanks to the occupation of Algeria by France in 1848, the terror of the North African slavers on the European coasts finally ended after hundreds of years. First let Algeria apologize for that. Then we'll see.
@@algerianmonarchist8017 So if something happened in the 18th century was it less bad than if it happened in the 19th century? What wonderful logic. If you don't have better excuses to make your point, it's best to shut up. The slave market of Algiers functioned until the day the French put an end to it. In 1816, an Anglo-Dutch fleet bombed Algiers, freeing 5000 European slaves. That was not in the 18th century. Here is a notarized deed from 1830 in which a man legalized himself because he had no birth certificate because his mother who was pregnant with him was dragged by slavers from her village in Italy to Algiers and sold as a slave there and he was born there Quote/ Atto notorio per la nascità dello sposo: “L'anno mille ottocento trenta, il giorno venticinque del mese di agosto alle ore diciannove in Staiti avanti a noi Giuseppe Morando Reg. giudice del circondario di Staiti assistito dal cancelliere sostituto. sign. Montella si è presentato Vincenzo Pisano fu Francesco di anni 25, bracciale, domiciliato in Brancaleone ed ha detto che circa venticinque anni sono, nacque egli tra i momettani in Tunisi perché suo padre e sua madre erano stati fatti schiavi daite Pizzazio e dei padri Dominicani della religione Spagnola e gli fece da compare un individuo schiavo siciliano nativo di Trapani. Non potendo egli verificare in altro modo la sua nascità per poter prender moglie, si è presentato da noi per fare a suo favore l'atto di notorietà ed ha dato per testimoni i sette seguenti individui: 1- Fortunato Jeracitano fu Vincenzo di anni cinquantaquattro, vaticale di Staiti, dimorrante nel fundaco di Brancaleone, che in tempo della nascità del detto Vincenzo Pisano, perché trovava si anche schiavo in Tunisi e sa benissimo che vi nascità da costali i Parisi che fu fatta schiava col deponende insieme nel tempo che in una notte stavano nel fondaro di Brancaleone. 2- Domenico Musitano fu Giuseppe di anni sessanta quattro, scrivente comunale di Staiti. 3- Francesco Trunfio fu Antonino di anni sessanta cinque, vaticale di Staiti. 4- Antonino Principato del fu Domenico, ferrajo di anni cinquanta di Staiti. 5- Bruno Zappia fu Giovanni di anni cinquanta due di Staiti. 6- Giuseppe Trunfio di Francesco di anni trentacinque di Staiti. 7- Antonino Parisi fu Fortunato di anni trenta di Brancaleone. I quali tutti uniformamente hanno dicchiarato sapere per pubblico detto e fama che quando fu fatta schiava Orsola Parisi, madre del Pisano era gravida e la portari in Tunisi ed acquistarono tutti la libertà dopo che gli Inglesi in tempo del ammirambard del Regno di Napoli furono tutti posi in libertà. Quindi abbiamo steso il presente che va letto scritto da noi dal nostro cancelliere avendo dichiarato tutti gli altri di non saper scrivere per lo quale si sono impiegati due vacazioni." /end quote So I commend the day when the French conquered Algeria, saving countless Europeans from a terrible fate that befell millions of Europeans in the centuries between ca. 750 and 1848. And by the way, swearing doesn't make your argument any better.
@@bcvanrijswijk did the dutch apologize for indonesia? Did the dutch also apologize to its people when they betrayed them to nazi germany?. Stop giving algeria credit its a fake artificial nation
What north African slavers, do you have real historical sources and documents,there was no north African slavery it's a modern myth fabricated by neocolonialists and far right propagandists,there was no Algerian pirates it's another myth fabricated by colonialist to excuse their atrocities. Colonialism is a crime period.
There is a genuine part of me that wishes france had not been blinded by their distorted imperial viewpoint. The French should have treated all algerians as they did mainland french if they were a genuine part of france as the french claimed. Imagine if this alternate reality took place then i truly believe the relations between north africa and europe would be so much more productive and intertwined especially with the EU because a mirror between that and the roman empire could have been made since romans were more keen on integration and cooperation rather than genocide and exploitation. I really feel as though modern history would have truly benefited with this cultural bridge instead france was wholly incapable of practicing what they preach just like the united States... I wonder why rome and many other could comparatively be more effective at assimilating conquered people instead wholesale condemnation and brutality. Anyways thanks for coming to my TED talk
I'm Algerian and I will not forgive France even if it apologized... France for 130 years has been committing crimes against the Algerians , Even during the revolution, #NATO supported #France with weapons and soldiers in order to ki|l the Algerians.
Everyone who agreed to French citizenship was considered a traitor, and we still consider them traitors, even their children and grandchildren, all of whom left with France after independence but only the #Jews, after 5 years of the occupation of Algeria, declared themselves to be French.. Then people like you talk about them as if we created the problem
I keep hearing this. But the issue isn’t about people being responsible for acts committed hundreds of years ago. It is about the state. The French state committed atrocities. And did so in an era when it should have known better. That is the point here. This was done by a country under the modern system of international law, not by a wholly different and extinct entity in a very different era.
@@JamesKerLindsay So atrocities committed against Europeans don't matter because they happened a long time ago but current French citizens, who weren't even alive at the time, should be castigated for everything done during colonialism. These same people should also grovel for forgiveness just because they have the same state apparatus, got it.
@@jacobcantrell82 No. Read my reply again. It is about a state admitting responsibility. I made that point clearly. What happened hundreds of years ago by an actor that doesn’t exist anymore is very different from what was done sixty years ago by a state - a legal entity - that continues to exist. Law is about precision. It is important not to argue on emotion or what you feel should be the case, but to argue on the law and facts of the situation.
@@JamesKerLindsay Except trying to remove emotion from this discussion just is not possible. Algerians aren't upset about colonialism because some academic legal precept was violated or some casualty statistics from a war before they were alive. They are emotional because their concept of their nation and people was attacked by a foreign power and occupied. My emotions inform me that this is hypocritical considering their ancestors attacked the French coastline for centuries and were only stopped when the French got strong enough. The Algerians aren't upset that people were harmed; they are upset that their victim got strong enough to retaliate. Trying to say that it is the state people live under and not the people themselves that determines guilt for past actions just comes off as blame shifting so one side is guilt but the other isn't despite also committing terrible actions. Trying to extract emotion from this scenario removes the whole reason it is important.
Excellent video again! I am unsure whether or not France should apologise to be honest. Algeria has suffered a lot since independence though as seen with the civil war that lasted 11 years between the Algerian government and the FIS and GIA extremist groups and the coups that have happened since 1962 have led to extremely authoritarian governments leading the country. I hope Algeria finds peace and manages to fully restore democratic government after Boutefilka died in 2019.
@@Omer1996E.C If that is the case then fine. Humanitarian intervention has failed and it’s up to Middle Easterns and North Africans to decide what they want. It’s not the west’s job to decide for you.
@@cricketman1322 indeed, but the west doesn't want to leave us. They support dictators we don't like, but opposes the one we likes. It's not only in MENA, but also in all of Africa, without exception
We don't need their apology, nothing can make us forget our Algerian Martyrs that were tortured for 130 years. What they did in Algeria was a genocide, and its negative impact still exist till today. They literally had the Martyrs skulls displayed in their french museums till 2020. Our people will never forget, May the Martyrs rest in peace
As a french, i's hard to summarized French colonization of Algeria in 15mn. I don't think that we french people shouldn't apologize for colonization and war but at the same time I think it's important to respect every memories including the memory of the Harkis and Pieds-noirs who had been killed by the Algerians at that time. Considering the fact that Algeria regularly does antifrench propaganda, for exemple the case of the iron of the Eiffel Tower (FLN Algerians said that the iron came from Algerian mines which is completely wrong as it came from Nancy and Lorraine mines), I think apologies are very inlikely to happen. Moreover, Algeria is a military and islamist dictatorship so it easy for them to blame France every time something bad happens in order to shirk the responsabilities and the problems of its country. To conclude, I think we french people should ask the french gouvernement to apologize to Algeria. But at the same time, we shouldn't forget the memories of everyone and more important we shouldn't accept everything that say the FLN and the islamist propaganda as it will not help everyone. The best way is to reconcile every memories, french people and Algerian people. Best regards, a proud but humanist french man.
@@averagecitizen863 L'Algérie est un pays dont la religion d'État est officiellement l'islam. Le droit algérien c'est la charia. La constitution ne fait pas non plus mention de liberté de culte. Les minorités sont soumises à des discriminations dont la source est la religion, etc. Je peux continuer longtemps. Ça ne suffit pas à l'inclure dans "dictature islamique" selon vous ? De plus islamisme et fondamentalistes islamiques ne signifient pas terrorisme islamique. La vie politique algérienne est fondé sur l'islam politique. Or cette politique est de nature autoritaire. Donc oui, l'Algérie est bien une dictature islamique.
It seems like any French presidents will never apologize in matters to their colonial past bcz they don't want to enrage the right and far-right politicians in France, triggering further strain in France's touchy and delicate politics.
James' presentation of colonization and the crimes and massacres of the war of independence seems to me unbalanced and anachronistic: it is obvious that today these facts would be as decried as the special operation of the Russians in Ukraine, but the France of today, including more than a million perfectly integrated Algerian families, has nothing to do with the France of that time. Why would it ask for forgiveness without reciprocity?
The genocide of the Algerian people by France needs to come to the broader attention of the international community and the public. France must - once and for all - officially apologize, and pay rightful reparations to the Algerian state and to the relatives of the murdered. My condolences to the people of Algeria. PS. Watch the movie "The Battle Of Algiers". DS.
Algeria owes France an apology and reparations for the mass murders that followed independence. Then they can give the territories they still occupy back to Morocco.
France should say that they are sorry, but not really mean it. This has been a really successful strategy on my part in my life! On the one hand, it basically makes it impossible to ever sincerely be apologetic and have the apology be accepted later on. On the other hand, expecting an apology is perhaps one of the most toxic behaviors in human behavior, so it shouldn't be encouraged.
It is good to acknowledge when you behaved in a hurtful manner in interpersonal relationships to better understand each other, but also for your own growth. I think the same applies to coutries in a social or cultural sense, if not a political one.
The reason, or one of the reasons, why it was so hard for France 🇫🇷 to give up Algeria 🇩🇿 is that Algeria 🇩🇿 was divided into three departments, more or less like counties in USA 🇺🇸, which are tge basic political unit in France 🇫🇷. These three departments had the same status as Paris, Lyon or Marseille, which was crazy, but that was their mindset. De Gaulle realized that eventually there would be a bunch of Muslims in the National Assembly (Congress) in Paris, and that couldn’t be. That, added to the fact that the colonial war wasn’t going well, led De Gaulle to grant Algeria 🇩🇿 independence, which enraged the far right and it tried to assassinate him.
France will not apologize until it has completely rid itself of the Francafrique mindset. This should happen within the next few decades as former colonies turn the tables and show France who's colonizing who like Niger did with the Areva uranium price dispute.
Im not a fan of countries making formal apologies. It would be never ending as every country esp one that had power committed some kind of crime in the past . I'd say it's enough if French politicians acknowledge that the occupation and war were brutal without formally apologizing . I also think comments such as those by Macron when he said the Algerian government was stuck in the past and using it for self legitimization are totally misplaced . Another thing ,doesn't Algerian owe its borders to the French ? The French added extensive territories to historical Algeria making it as big as it is today .
Est ce que l'Algérie doit s'excuser pour l'esclavage berbère? Je ne pense pas. La France non plus. L'occident doit arrêter de s'auto-flageller. Et je dit ça en tant qu'immigrant chinois vivant au Québec. Si les pays démocratiques commencent à s'auto-flageller, ça va seulement profiter au dictateurs ailleurs. Soyez fier de votre histoire.
France was brutal and has reason to be sorry, but would an apology really end or relieve tension? Or would it be taken as a sign of weakness and lead to greater Algerian demands and leverage over France?
Thanks. Excellent questions. Apologies are often a lot more political and far-reaching than people appreciate. It isn’t always felt to be as easy as saying sorry. It can carry potential economic implications too.
Not sure who said it was. But this was a video about France and Algeria. If you want videos on Britain and the legacy of colonialism I have plenty of those.
cool vid!, i don't know what to choose tbh, a question tho since we are talking about countries taking over each other? what do you think abt the claims of ppl in south Yemen claiming that their county "south arabia" has been taken over by the north?
@@Omer1996E.C will yeah at first, but then when the south asked to go back to being their own country "south arabia" the north launched an attack on the south
@@lfmsmka nobody launched an attack. It was the central government trying to avoid division. The government composes of northern and Southern states representatives. Even today the temporary capital city is in the south, with a rebellion in the north
@@Omer1996E.C yeah that’s what I’m saying, them “stopping” the division shouldn’t have happened if the people of the south wanted to divide because it was two countries coming together anyways
@علي يا سر do u meaning like pouring oil into a fire? if yes, tbh honest i kinda do agree but like with who? if the south decided to divide after the war its their right tbh i see the country turning into a federal state is the best choice at this time like a south arabia and yemen going under the name united yemen and to each side their rules. Again its the choice of the people of the ppl they are the ones who suffered its their legal choice to choose
I would say France could apologise for colonialism, if Algeria apologises for the Barbary slave trade that incited the French into invading them. More than a million Europeans were kidnapped and sold as slaves by Barbary pirates, who operated on behalf of the Regency of Algiers, making them very rich. I think it would be reasonable for Algeria as the modern state of Algiers to apologise for that.
So you compare a colonialism that was there for over 130 years to a slave trade that was under the ottomans empire when everyone practiced slave trade at that time?? I swear white people are crazy 😂
@@ihavenojawandimustscream4681 Indeed... and this is why I find the whole 'nations apologising' thing to be a little silly. It boils down to a tit-for-tat search for who can count the most or most severe historical grievances to leverage for diplomatic advantage. The apology itself is inherently insincere and meaningless, coming from people alive today to other people alive today who often have nothing to do with those historical events. I think it would be more mature for both countries to simply acknowledge the bad history and pledge to move forward with a more productive and equal partnership.
Great analysis....!!!! Algeria was part of France but Moslem Algerians were second class citizens with their legal and civil rights restricted by the racist Code de L' indigenat .....and Charles de Gaulle granted independence because he did not want 8 million Moslems to become French citizens....it's all about demographics.....he famously said : my home town will become Colombey les deux Mosquees instead of Colombey les deux eglises......and he was right, the 9 millions Moslems in 1954 are 44 millions today with another 3 millions living in France...... something similar is stopping Israel from annexing and giving the Moslems who live in the West Bank Israeli Citizenship like they did in 1949...to the Arabs who lived there within it's borders.
It is indeed true that French were extremely and extra ordinarily brutal as they first captured the country, during their entire colonial period and then as they fought the freedom fighters. I was very shocked to see a video of a French soldier just casually killing a villager on the back as he was quietly walking in the distance, as if he was not a human being but may be a bird. The shooting was filmed!! Then he started shooting at a small tent on the side of a dirt road and the family in the tent fell over and the tent fell apart. Possibly the killing was done to have something interesting to be filmed!!! The French did not see the Algerians as human beings at all!! I wonder what they thought of themselves then and what they think of themselves now!! If even after 60 years they are not apologetic, they are refusing to see their own face in the mirror!
I knew a man who grew up in French Algeria as a son of Pieds Noirs parents. He maintained that at the start of the FLN guerrilla war against the French Colonial Government, the majority of the Algerian population both Muslim and European did not approve of a guerrilla style war and preferred the colonial government. However the FLN began targeting and killing Pieds Noirs civilians instead of just attacking government posts. The French army reacted in turn by indiscriminately killing Muslim civilians in retaliation. This turned the majority population away the colonial government and towards the FLN. At the time of the independence referendum, 99% of Algeria's population voted for independence. Then there was the Oran massacre of Europeans right after independence and that really fueled enduring hate between the two groups.
sounds more like it. fast forward to 2022, Algerians are now doing what it takes to live in France , even if it means that they become an invasive species
@@ghost-vl1qx Perhaps I should explain in more detail. I really should have phrased it as "the majority of the population, Pied Noirs and Muslim, did not approve initially of the FLN because it was a guerrilla war movement. In this respect the majority of the Algerian population preferred the French Colonial Government.
@@marathonman1205 Eight French lawmakers have submitted a draft law to the Parliament demanding it recognise the "horrific massacres, retaliation and public square executions" committed against the French and Europeans who lived in the Algerian city of Oran in 1962. It had a huge impact in France even if few know about it in America.
I went to Algeria in the late 1980s, I had occasion to speak to a police officer, which I did in French, his reply was 'Quelle nationalite êtes-vous?' I said 'Anglais' and he said 'Bon!'. I could feel the hostility drain away.
Now things are different French citizens are visiting Algeria very often of course you'll find some people who hate the French but they represent a small minority
C'est intéressant 🤔
Conversely I heard a black American woman visit France, who waited in line for a crepe. When it was her turn and she ordered a crepe, the server spoke rudely to her, but made the crepe. Then the server tried to charge double what he charged the previous customer. When she asked why the server was being so mean, the server suddenly realized the woman was speaking with an American accent. Until that moment, the server had assumed she woman was Algeria, and decided that he hated her. But when he realized she was American, he charged her the regular price.
@@AxiomTutor well racists are everywhere I have met a lot of French people and they are just amazing incidents like this can happen and it's sad 😔
@@AxiomTutor I don’t believe this story at all. Black, French people are everywhere in France and to misjudge someone so badly, would be very dangerous and explosive potentially. No one would dare be so brazen in a public sphere.
Also Algerians are not Black so no one would mistake someone speaking English, almost certainly, who is Black, with an Algerian, almost all of whom are Caucasian people and speak French regardless.
Lastly, having spent a great deal of time in France this entire scenario is simply implausible. The French-are extremely polite, contrary to myths to the contrary popular in the US and hold no animus against Algerians unless they are illegal, militant, or seek to undermine French culture and civilization, which would apply to anyone actually. This is an issue in the South primarily, in Marseille specifically, with its large militant, Algerian community.
My grandfather was literally decapitated and his limbs were cut of and thrown In valley by the French, he got buried at the spot his remains were found by local women and After independence he got relocated to the local graveyard specialised for martyrs .
Personally I don't hold any grudge against the French as my religion believes that the son doesn't bear the sins of the father but thinking that if the colonialisation lasted a little longer that could have been my parents ، older siblings or my fate .
What is your view on what has happened in Algeria since the French left in 1962? Are you satisfied with the Algerian Government and how they have developed the country. As a foreigner looking at Algeria from the outside, I see many disturbing and disappointing things.
@@maginot2u I'm disappointed and I don't consider the current government legitimate ,as a Kabyle personally some forces in the current government are trying to push us into Separation and get Autonomy but the majority of Kabyles (inside Algeria) aren't buying it as it's just a hoax(a self made scape goat)to clear the real opposition,but the movement is growing thanks to being backed by the Algerian Intelegence system(DRS).
Well, my grandfather, working as a radio opperator for the navy and located in Tunisia at the time, saw many french soldiers' bodies coming back in similar conditions, bearing scars of herendous mistreatments. Some had been his buddies...
My point is, there was hatred and aweful results of it on both sides. I've seen many people painting one side white and the other black, be it the french or the algerian side, but the truth is that, as ofthen, reality is extremly nuanced and doesn't fit into such simple views.
I fear that, if France was to appologise for its past misdeeds, Algeria and many algerians alike wouldn't have the maturity to acknowledge their own as well, sawing the seeds of even more discord than just maintaining the status quo.
@@maginot2u well the many disappointments you mentioned are far better than the injustice cause in frensh rule, many of which even frensh officers mentioned with pride in their journals
@@yaziri7 That may be. Still it's a real shame that independence has not brought democracy and freedom to Algeria. Things could have been so much better.
Another excellent video! My understanding of Algeria's history is a bit basic, and I didn't really understand how current or deep the bad feelings between Algeria and France are. Thanks again for the thorough briefing on a fascinating topic!
Outstanding analysis. The politics of France have always been eye opening related to the strident political differences, and how they can co-exist in a single political entity. The issue of the war in Algeria highlights the internal political dynamics of France, and the fervently held feelings as well as France's imperial chauvinism contrasted against its profound liberalism. In this case it seems that this "internal" French political conflict played out violently in Algeria. Given the current internal politics of France it would seem Algeria will continue to be a giant "Pink Elephant" in the room that no one will talk about. So Algerian & Franch relations will continue to be contentious. Thanks for this great video and your efforts to objectively analyze difficult topics.
👍
Thank you so much Andrew. This was a topic that I had really wanted to cover as the Algerian War of Independence was probably the most brutal colonial conflict. And it is incredible to see the affect that it has had on both countries, even sixty years later.
@@JamesKerLindsay Viêt-Nâm & ALgeria . . . BLoody WARS ...
Well I don't think Algerians will forget what happened in the past because it was really brutal, in the same time I don't think France will ever apologize because it will open the hell doors and other colonies will ask for the same, as an algerian I don't want an apology I want Algeria to be strong and have an equal relationship with France we are not a French colony anymore in fact we need to work on ourselves and make our country great with many reliable allies and partners 😀
I met many Algerians, many say that they don't like French people (not necessarily hate them), and France is a parasitic country, look at sahel African countries, they are kept poor by the French, isn't this a good reason to keep france as a normal country than an ally?
If we all do this and help each other the past atrocities won’t matter as much. Then apologies will be much easier.
@@wasssssuppppppp you are never experiencing the bad things that happened back then. Algerians are.
Algeria was much richer comparatively, that before the French colonial invasion, Algeria was loaning France, although France held much more colonies in the Americas. Then France invaded Algeria, abolished the loans, took the treasury, killed the rulers, rich people and educated populations, humiliated Algerian women, nuked it's deserts and experienced nuclear impact on human by Algerian bodies near villages, and those people are still suffering. In fact, many parts of the effiel tower were brought from Algeria.
They killed, imprisoned and tortured educated people of Algeria.
Imagine just all these never happened. Ok, imagine only Algerian money wasn't stolen and was invested, there is a very high chance Algerians would be richer than the french people in per capita terms.
How devastating, and still French politicians call Algeria (a country created by France) rejecting the fact that Algeria existed many centuries ago and humiliating Algerians in France.
@@Omer1996E.C well there is no doubt that there was crimes I'm not denying that I'm saying it's the past and I don't care much about the past I'm looking for a brighter future for my country were Algeria will be strong and prosperous, my point is that we need to get out of the French influence and make other reliable allies from all over the world 🌎
@@Omer1996E.C That’s horrible
An outstanding analysis as always, this topic always impacts me as an Algerian, and you never disappoint me James in giving objective analysis. The Algerian issue will always be an elephant in the room for the French, and it's a deep scar in the Algerian tissue. The apology isn't looming in the air anyway, but things seem to be moving. Wether they apologize or no ...the damage remains. I wish a better future to all the people who were colonized.
Thank you very much indeed. I really wanted to look at Algeria given the significance of this year. It was such a devastating conflict, and yet seemingly so little known or understood more widely. (By the way, if you know anyone who might be interested in the video, please do share it more widely.)
Don't you think that France has been generous to Algeria, by allowing thousands of Algerians to immigrate to France? There are about half a million persons of Algerian descent living and making their livlihood in France. And they are far better off than most Algerians living in Algeria.
@@maginot2u I don't think so. Our people in France are already facing stigma and racism.
@@aymenbendjeddou6670 I know thare are still problems in France with accepting people of darker complexion and non French cultural background. But in the end it comes down to..... would you rather return to Algeria or stay in France? Most would say I'll stay in France.
@@maginot2u of course they will say so. If I were in their place I wouldn't return to Algeria. The standards of living are high.
Excellent work as always- and huge congratulations on 100K!!
Vlad we watch the same channels as well. Truly a man with good taste.
One of the reason France was so adamant about keeping Algeria was because Algeria, unlike other French possesions/colonies in Africa, was considered an integral part of France both symbolically and legally. As French decolonization effort gathered steam and the former colonies in Africa gained independence in the late '50's to early '60's, the French attitude towards Algeria looked more and more like one of an oppressor to the outside world as in "They let all the other places go, why not Algeria?" This along with the increasing fractures in French society because of the war threatened to destroy Frances standing in the world, and so independence became De Gaulles way out. I would also assume, that De Gaulle probably didn't feel a lot of sympathy for the far-right groups advocating for Algeria to remain French. I mean, they did try to coup him twice and kill him once. Great informative video as always. Greetings from Aarhus, Denmark
It was not only a question of symbol. More than 1 Million of French people out 10 million of inhabitants lived there. There were too many Europeans who have been living there for more than a century. Algeria and France were both their country. So it was a very complex issue to solve.
If Algeria were part of France, the French would not test their nuclear weapons in Reggane
@@user-em6ff6lv5z what do you think the Russian did on their own territory?
@@henrydelabareyre8617 why would you test nukes on your land when you have colonies? As far as I know, america and the ussr didn't have any so they did it on their soil, france however...
Algeria was intended as France 'Lebensraum' in Africa, that's why it was accorded the department status. The loss of France international prestige in 1950s following defeat at Dien Bien Phu , and withdrawal from Suez Crisis might in some way radicalize both French and Algerians..
As usual, exceptional research and presentation. Thank you Professor!
Thank you so much!
Thank you for this great analysis. I’d love to see more content about my homeland!
Thank you very much. I do hope to do more in future.
Thank you for these valuable information, There was a couple of points that I wished you touched on, like the nuclear tests carried out in the south of Algeria and the Algerian soldiers who fought alongside the French army in the front lines during WW2.
I think your final words perfectly summarise the prospective relationship between France and Algeria. Anyways, a concise, well formulated video as always.
Thank you so much! Yes, going by everything so far, I really don’t think we will see an apology.
Thank you, great content. Iv often heard about this topic but never looked into it. and it seems like it’s not a topic covered by mainstream media.
Thanks. I had wanted to do this as this year marks the 60th anniversary of independence. But it has indeed received very little international coverage.
Glad to have found your channel! One of those rare days when the UA-cam algorithm recommends something worth watching! Look forward to watching more of your content in the future!
Excellent video , I beleive France should say sorry but this will never happen as France would then be obliged to say sorry to all the other countries that were under French colonial rule .
I wish you would do a video on Africa's former colonial powers who are still in control of Africa's mineral wealth and looks likely they'll never let go .
Thanks Roddy. Very good point. I think the precedent argument does indeed affect these things too. And thanks for the excellent suggestion. I’ll mark it down.
The corrupt ruling elites are also part of the problem, as they collaborated/in the pay book of foreign corporations to enjoy quick easy wealth for personal consumption and gaining political support, with little thought on local development.
It surprises me that, despite the bloody war of independence, so many Algerians migrated to France and the French let them. Algerians could not live with the French in Algeria, but they could live with them in France? Had I a violent separation from somebody, I would not continue cohabiting while simply changing addresses. Brigitte Bardot expressed a similar sentiment.
No surprise, independent Algeria is a kelptocracy that only survives on the gas reserves that they have thanks to the french colonial borders and discovery and on using the colonial victimism to explain everything wrong in the country. Without the millions in France the civil war would have been sooner and far more bloody and maybe a end for the algerian regime.
don't confuse aggression against colonial rule vs relationship as equals.
@@khairulhelmihashim2510 That is an overly intellectual distinction. There was visceral hate there and bad blood remains. Maybe Algeria could have allowed France to send millions of settler to it provided it was sovereign and independent to accept them. Does that sound likely?
@@Jorjgasm this is stupidity. France is accepting Algerians because they are good, educated, cheap, French speaking labour forces. If it was really accepting for Algerian good, they would have gave Algerians more freedom, especially in religious terms that they lack
@@Omer1996E.C What religious freedoms are they lacking?
I am honestly thankful I found your channel. I personally was not aware of the strained relationship between Algeria and France and to learn of such fascinating history is mostly humbling. Thank you.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I really enjoy making these videos. They are often a great chance for me to a closer look at fascinating issues that don't perhaps get a lot of coverage.
Thank you for another excellent and informative video Professor
Thanks Luke!
One of my grand-parents was killed by French troops
He left my grandma with her 2 yo son " who's my dad " and another son who wasn't born yet " my only uncle " his youngest brother was killed too
He didn't leave any children
My other grandfather managed to stay alive during the revolutionary War
He has pictures in the 50s back when he was a soldier fighting the French to liberate his country
He speaks proudly about his experience
I really wanted to meet my other grandfather too
Personally as someone who's parents were directly affected by this occupation I know France is not gonna say sorry
And their sorry is not gonna change anything
It's not gonna Bring my grandfather to live to raise his child or the other 1.5 million who's France killed during the revolution
I just want em to stay away from my country and stop interfering with our country
Personally I'd never forgive France for what it did even if they paid trillions of dollars
Cause one human life worth much more than that
Let alone 1.5 million
Thanks for sharing that.
Absolutely fascinating (I hope you do not find that trite or condescending it's not meant to be) to hear your story. I have never really understood why France had the attitude it had to Algeria. I am aware of the 'reasons' for invasion and of the large numbers of French who settled in Algeria but the French stubbornness exceeded even the British over India. Britain left India in a total mess but there was not quite the viciousness which France inflicted. I am not sure why the French had the attitude that Algeria was simply France, just another province of France. For the most part (Modi aside - if that's possible) Indians seem reasonably well disposed to Britain (look at our NHS) however France seemed to have squandered such a relationship with Algeria.
Very odd.
Thank you for sharing. Both of your grandpas are heroes, I wish your family well.
So tell your government to stop asking for apologies and move on.
We are sorry love from Turkey
@@0816M3RC Tell your government to stop fucking in north africa
Thank you professor for this very informative presentation. I understand the connection many make between apologizing and reparations and I think if there were a way to apologize without leaving the reparations door open, it would probably come sooner, rather than later.
Thanks a lot. I think you are completely right. Countries appear to become extremely nervous if they think there will be significant costs associated with any apology.
I am not sure politicians from both sides are really willing to change the status quo:
- French politicians would lost their far right wing which is pretty important and reparations would mean spending tax payers money and risky politically speaking, so a lot prefer to say that « you know, there were good things as well in the colonisation »
- Algerian politicians would lose a common « excuse » for their lack of results, especially economic results, mostly due to their incompetence/corruption. They prefer keep saying it’s because of « what the French took us during occupation »
Exactly. Why pay "reparations" (just typing the word makes me cringe) to a country as corrupt as Algeria? It is just going to go to the corrupt elite.
The Algerians would lose nothing. An apology wouldn't be the end of the legacy of colonization either. But I think you are right it would cost a lot to any french politician to do that
Frankreich stahl 2.200 Milliarden Dollar aus Algerien und schloss viele Fabriken und Unternehmen, wie Sonacom, das den ersten Platz bei der Rallye Dakar 1980 gewann.Viele Algerier verloren ihre Jobs.
@@FOLIPE I didn’t say the Algerians would lose something. I said the Algerian POLITICIANS would lose something (their excuse for their lack of results, etc…)
@@user-em6ff6lv5z 🧢
A few remarks :
- Algeria's population is not mainly of Berber and Arabic descent, it is a melting pot including a substantial part of Anatolian (Turkish...) descent, because of the large garrison the Turkish empire maintained in Alger, garrison whose member "married" locally, but where forbidden to bring back their spouses or children when they went back to Anatolia at the end of their service time. Arabic population influx (ie. from Arabic peninsula) is limited in the Maghreb.
- In the 1830-1852 period, French occupation of Algeria was mainly due to French fears of a possible British colonisation of Egypt, due to the weakening of the Turkish Empire. I sincerely believe that this occupation was negotiated with (accepted by ?...) Turkey, because it allowed French government to position, and to acclimate, French troops near Egypt as a menace against British troops that might intervene to conquer Egypt. In those years, French government was very active in helping Egyptian government to acquire modern European agricultural and military technologies. British colonisation of Egypt looked quite possible in the 1830' and would have been catastrophic for both France and Turkey.
- In those years, there was a short supply of grain in Europe, and Algeria had huge good farmlands that were not cultivated due to cultural and organisational issues of the Turkish Empire. From a Turkish perspective, it might have been a reasonable trade-off to let France occupy part of those farmlands in exchange for technological transfers and some military arguments against Britain just in case....
- I don't really believe French occupation of Algeria in the 1830-1852 period was particularly "brutal" compared to the history of Maghreb in the previous generations. I understand there were large famines, but such famines also existed in previous generations and there were no surplus of grain in Europe or reasonable means of transports that might have prevented those famines. Best solution was to imports European agricultural technologies and farmers, which is what the Frenchmen did in that time.
- I understand that there was some influx of European population in the 1830-1852 period, then a very limited influx in the 1852-1871 period and a large influx in the 1871-1900 period, but that this European population included much more Spaniards, Italian or Maltese than native Frenchmen. It looks like, between 1830 and 1852, France was in good connection with Turkey to do what looked reasonable to oppose British expansionism in the Mediterranea, then between 1852 and 1871, France frose the situation to avoid too much confrontation with Britain, and between 1871 and 1900, French governments advertised Algeria as a kind of promised land for poor Frenchmen for electoral purposes, having abandoned any serious idea of confronting Britain in the Mediterranea (the problem might also have been considered as much less acute than in the 1830'...).
- I understand that in 1900, France (Parisians...) had mixed feelings about Algeria. On one hand they believed that it might serve as a link between Europe and the Middle-East & sub-Saharan Africa, both commercially and culturally. On the other hand, they considered that Algeria low GNP per habitant, even when limited to Algeria's "pieds-noirs" population, prevented any possibility of real unification between France and Algeria, short or long term. I guess they believed in a future independent Algeria under the leadership of its pied-noirs population, and they let this population rule that country to a large extent. They were surprised to find that Pieds-Noirs and indigenous Algerian could not find any kind of reasonable compromise, and, in 1962, they did what the US governments of the time asked for to close the file.
60 years later, most Frenchmen don't feel very concerned by this story. Personally, I think that French presence in Algeria was positive between 1830 and 1871, and that it should have evolved toward much less European immigration and more autonomy after 1871, concluding in the 1930' or 1950' with some kind of peaceful independence, keeping most of its (much more limited...) pieds-noirs population. Diplomacy, French electoral marketing and a few errors after 1871 prevented that.
When I am back to work this will definitely go on the Patreon list. In the meantime I can only share and comment. Thanks so much Prof! 👍🏻👍🏻
Thank you so much Peter. Please don’t worry about it. I know times are hard for people. Any and all support is really appreciated. The likes and comments are always appreciated enormously and really help in their own right! Take care and keep well.
@@JamesKerLindsay Cheers mate! Appreciated 👍🏻
As an Irishman I can understand the feelings of the Algerian people towards their former rulers and wanting an apology. I do believe the French should give an apology, but I do not believe they should have to pay reparations. As much as I'd love an apology from the British government for what they did in my country I do not want their money. We have been forging closer relations between Dublin and London for decades now. It has massively eased tensions between our governments and has benefited both our peoples. As much as I believe France should apologise I do think Algeria should forge closer relations regardless, be the bigger person so to speak. It would benefit both countries and may move France closer to giving that well deserved apology.
Thank you. Excellent as usual
Seeing how “White” people act when they colonize “Non-White” people is exactly why I’m glad Ethiopia did what they did to Europeans hoping to win 💖
If only the study of genocide could be left to serious historians. Too often we see countries using the claim of genocide against their rivals as a way of marginalising their opponents. Essentially the drive behind the genocide recognition is personal gain which is extremely selfish and in fact detrimental to the cause. France for example has been on the forefront of the Armenian genocide recognition campaign whilst casually ignoring the atrocities it committed in Algeria. When Macron demands Turkey apologize, many in the Middle East and the wider Muslim world can sense the hypocrisy and this has raised conspiracy theories regarding if the Armenian genocide even happened or if this is another tool for the former colonial powers to pressurise non-European countries.
Muslim? Regarding the Armenian genocide, muslims condemn it and we call it unislamic. It was the ottoman empire killing arabs, kurds, Armenians and others during it's last years to try to stop internal problems as external wars were devastating them.
Armenian Genocide has been confirmed and definitely existed, don't try to shamelessly deny it it's pathetic. Many experts agree on the systematic execution of the Christian minorities in the Ottoman Empire: Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians suffered genocide, as per the study of experts (go check wiki yourself honestly) and the def online
If Germany can say sorry why can't France do the same?
Yes , exactly
Because Germany was occupied, raped and thoroughly humiliated by the Americans, British and the Russian in 1945. Basically a slave apologizing to its masters.
Germany almost single-handedly caused two world wars and directly carried out the greatest genocide in human history, the Algerian War doesn't come close to any of that.
@@nikolaasp2968 yeah doesn't come close to it should be a reason why not to apologize.
@@amei653 It's not only the scale of crimes, the difference is also that there is wrong on both sides in the case of the Algerian war. What would be good would be for both governments to agree on a mutual apology, but that is not about to happen since so far only France has worked significantly on examining its past and did the most to recognise its guilt. In Algeria on the other hand the anti-French discourse remains an electoral business, the memory of the Algerian war is instrumentalised by the regime who has created a heroic, sacrificial tale which says nothing about the crimes comitted by the separatists.
This war is so under talked about. I think the time period it and the french indochina war were faught in probably contributes to that. The 50s and 60s were witness to the rise of the cold war, the Korean war, and the beginnings of the vietnam war. The end of French colonialism is criminally overlooked
France still does neo colonisation and exploitation of Africa, using the CFA Franc in 14 African Countries
Indeed, we are suffering
those countries voluntarily adopted the CFA. You'd say exactly the same thing if France did not support the CFA.
@@uschurch they were forced. Either die, or pay. This was the thing, it was and still is harsh. It is still colonialism. You Europeans support it because it supports your economies and currency. We are suffering from it. You don't know the feeling of living on 2000 usd a year. You get at least 20 times more income a year
@@uschurch their leaders were bribed with French goods, wasn’t very objective or voluntary was it?
I don't believe the Algerian Regime has ever asked for an Apology by the french governments over the years. But what the Algerian Government has done is ask the French Authorities to hand over contamination maps of regions where nuclear tests were conducted. They also asked for reperations for the vicitms of said tests. Neither demand has been awnsered.
The Algerien Government has also asked that Algerian Corpses held by the french be handed over, which to the french government's credit they did do.
In summary, the Algerian Government does not seem to want an apology, but rather tangible support from the French Authorities.
The entire 'France needs to apologize' thing seems to be a narrative mainly existing in France itself. It seems that the French People are indecisive on how to handle the legacy they have left behind.
When Macron ordered the excellent Historian Benjamin Stora to write about the War of Independance and how to deal with it appropiately, there was no coordination with the Algerian Authorities or Historians. When Macron aplogized to Harkis there was no pressure from Algiers to do so. When Macron met with young french algerians and expressed his views about Algeria (which is where he made the claims of Algeria not being a nation before colonization), there was no pressure from the Algerian Government to do so. Algerian-French Relations were fine at the time.
The Evidence strongly suggests to me, that a French Apology is not an Algerian Demand (as I have said, the Algerian Government has never demanded an apology and also I have yet to meet an algerian who wants one) but rather a domestic demand by French Algerians and the French Left.
Algeria: Will France ever apologise to me?
England: * hides under the chair *
Turkey: * goes to the bathroom *
Russia: * leaves room *
The only country who has owned up to what it has done is Germany. I know about what Japan did in China and Korea during World War 2 and they prefer not to talk about this. Turkey sees the Ottoman times as a golden age, the Balkans and Middle East disagree. England focuses on the good in colonialism when talking about it. Russia, everything it did to half of Europe is completely justified and they are proud of it. Germany was a special case because it was so badly humiliated after the war, they actually lost which played a factor (USSR was just as bad but they actually won, so no baddies) and the Holocaust is the most popular genocide (Turkey to this day denies the Amrmenian genocide, they actually won their war of independence). Even smaller states like Hungary & Romania who kept alive the Jews inside Hungary proper/Romania proper but sent to deathcamps the Jews inside newly acquired territories after 1939 (Romania didn't acknowledge what they did in Transnistria & Bessarabia to Jews up to 2003, and in Hungary Miklos Horthy is a hero to this day despite of what he has done in Northen Transylvania, Vojvodina and Ruthenia to Jews even before the Arrow-Cross take over in 1944). Non-ironically, I think for a country to feel sorry they need to do bad things and lose completely the war in which they did those bad things (but not always, Japan).
623 years Ottomans never did genocide so don't mix the Ottomans with evil satanic western European empires.
If Ottomans ruled like evil western empires the world would be speaking Turkish today
@@bigboyrambo2009 Bro, the Armenian Genocide. Literally the genocide that Hitler took inspiration from to make the holocaust, because the Turks got away with it. And the Ottomans did rule the Balkans and Middle Eaast exactly how evil satanic western European empires ruled Africa.
@@catalinmarius3985
You know the winners of war write the history books?
You know Zionist rule over Germany?
You know Zionist rule over America?
You know Zionist rule over most of Europe?
What you know about ww2 is what the Zionist have told you about ww2?
Why don't the historians speak about what happened to Armenians in ww1?
@@bigboyrambo2009 They do, they say the Turks killed millions of Armenians.
Excellent report...
Many colonial empire have not Apologised for their deeds. UK, France,Japan, Turkey are some examples. Some of them use words like regret but never straightforward apologize. It hurts pride of the nation and politician will surely loose their seats and face huge criticism in their home country
Which colonial empire did appologize?
@@FOLIPE Italy . Libya
@@user-em6ff6lv5z Italy didn't apologize for the horrible war against Ethiopia though
I can't see Turkiye ever apologizing for anything that's pretty much certain.
Hell ones like japan just straight up deny it
The colonial powers wanted control their colonies at any cost. When Britain and France faced the invading Nazis they recruited native troops to fight against Germans. They wanted freedom for themselves but not their colonies. French war in Algeria was brutal and bloody and left deep scars.
Thanks for another interesting video professor! What’s my opinion on the question posed? Hmm there’s definitely a lot of layers to this
As others have commented, it’s easy to understand why France went to such drastic, and eventually brutal, lengths to keep Algeria, especially in the wake of continued terror attacks on French-controlled areas as the war heated up; similar wars happened in other European colonies that had been made a full part of the mother state and/or had large settler populations. I would make an analogy in the English-speaking world to a situation where Hawaiian Communists started a guerilla war for independence at the height of the Cold War: it’s fair to say some parts of the ensuing counterinsurgency might be unsavory, as unfortunate as that is.
France’s hesitation to accept the legitimacy of the movement that represented independence, the FLN, even after independence was conceded, which had shown Communist leanings, was understandable especially given the context of the time. That French hesitation about the FLN has proven to be somewhat prudent as the Algerian regime that was set up has been a continual international problem over the years, nationalizing French and other foreign companies, allying with the Gaddafi regime in Libya, opposing America’s presence in Morocco, and continually antagonizing Morocco through various means including pipeline diplomacy and through its Polisario clients fighting against Morocco in the Sahara.
Although it had to reform somewhat, the Algerian regime survived the Soviet collapse, even outlasting their other ally Gaddafi in Libya, and to this day it continues to engage in its cold war with Morocco and to an extent with Europe.
I think that if drastic change were to occur in Algeria, and the new leadership came to a detente with Morocco and an end to the Sahara conflict, the opportunity would be there for much-increased engagement with Europe as a whole and France specifically, although given the long and complicated history and the sensitivities involved I don’t think a French apology would be proper nor, from what I can tell, is it sought.
Anyway I don’t want to ramble on more than I already have, I guess I can’t really answer the title question directly as there is so much grey area in both directions but as I said I at least lean towards “no”, France is not obligated to issue a public apology, but that doesn’t mean not to acknowledge the extrajudicial killings and detentions.
Thanks again professor for providing a fact-based forum for these conversations to take place!
Thank you LocalLt. You can always be relied on to offer an extremely well-thought out and interesting take on things.
It is indeed a complex question. Made all the more complicated by the distinct elements within the story, including the fate of the Harkis. I didn't tackle the current regime in Algeria, but this is obviously also an interesting and important point of friction. I must try to come back to this.
In the meantime, have a great rest of the weekend.
Algerians have nothing to gain from an apology. It was war and we won. In the other hand, they need to compensate and return Algeria's archive still kept by France.
Professor James Ker-Linsay, your analysis on the Algerian colonial history by France is accurate and well explained. Few comments however:
1- Many French born citizens supported the FLN either in France or in Algeria. They were called "porteurs de valises" or "luggage carrier" (because they were often smuggling money or arms for the FLN). Many paid of their life and their sacrifice should not be forgotten.
2- France will in my view apologise to turn the page with Algerian being at full peace with France as a state (not people of France who cannot be blamed for this colonial tragedy). Macron and Tebboune are paving the way for a "scientific" approach for a joint history that cannot be disputed by politicians.
3- The era pre-1830 could have been a bit more explained as the reasoning for France's attack of the Regency of Algiers are known and Benjamin Stora (a well-known historian in France) has provided an explanation on this matter and it is debt related from the Napoleon's wars and for Charles X to remain in power.
Other than the above, great work again 👏
On the 1830 invasion, the thing that pushed the invasion was also the Barbary pirates, it was pretty dumb considering much of the pirates weren't even supported by the Algiers government, and some would even raid Algerian and Ottoman ships, but it was a cassus beli that the French used against us
@@algerianmonarchist8017 I find somehow strange that an "Algerian Monarchist" is voicing the same theories than these from the French far right knowing that Hussein Dey has by 1820 established peace treaties with the United States, the UK and most of the European Countries with exception of France because of the wheat debt owed by France that was not paid by 1827 when French Consul Deval was still denying or mocking the debt when asked by Hussein Dey. This exchange led as we all know to the "fan incident".
Thinking about it, I actually doubt you are actually Algerian.
Thanks so much. Good points. All I would say is that I usually tend to skirt over too much of the history of a conflict in most of my videos. This is partly because I focus on the here and now as a channel looking at international relations and partly because it opens up all sorts of other problems. If you include one thing, then why not another? Most usually, the history of a conflict has very little bearing on the present - as much as people often think otherwise. (And I say this as someone who wrote a doctoral thesis that would really qualify as international history.) The key issues at the heart on most contemporary conflicts are more often than not rooted in modern international politics and international law than in history. History tends to make addressing those problems that much more difficult.
@@JamesKerLindsay Great perceptive from a geopolitical point of view. I have seen another video on western sahara and you clearly understand the origin of this issue, international law and the consequences today. Your unbiased views on geopolitics are commendable.
👏 👍👏
The porteurs de valise were communiste traitor that réserves To be treated as such.
As someone from Algeria, it really doesn't matter, when the current generals apologize for the late 90s war crimes, then even the Byzantines and Ottomans will say sorry, but as long as criminals runs this country we will never regain our dignity. No one will respect you if you keep humiliating yourself decade after decade.
I've always remembered a line, starkly proclaimed, from a short film on French expansion into north Africa: "France on both sides of the Mediterranean!". For me it encapsulated the arrogance and brutalism of colonialism. How can any civilized government not apologize for the conquest and subjugation of a foreign people?
It's not hard to understand why they don't appologize: they see what they did, conquest in general, as normal, and don't want to set it appart from other conquest done before or by other people. As civilized as we modern humans are, we still have tribalism, and these debates often fall back to attacks based on widly different interpretations of historic events
Because it's far more complex. Before the independence there were more than 1 Million of European people living in Algeria. It was really France with French cities like Oran, Constantine... These people were brutally forced to leave for France at the end of the war. Algerian will never excuse itself for having robbed their houses, and killed some of their members. War in Algeria was extremely brutal with use of terror against Algerian and European by the nationalists. Though Atrocities have been committed by both sides. France really developed Algeria during the colonisation and created it from scratch. That's why giving excuses is useless and actually an humiliation as it would say that France is evil and responsible for everything bad that happens today in the country. The Algerian government also won't recognise its crimes and its failure to rule the country. Algerian government is a complete failure to manage well the country, accusing always France for the bad in the country.
Politically if Macron gives Official excuses, he will be literally loathed by a very large part of the population which doesn't consider French history in Algeria as completely bad. Hope it helps to better understand the issue.
Let's not even talk about France's overseas territories. Let's focus on France first. France used to have loads of regional languages until they got suppressed in favour of standard French.
Well it's worth considering the fact that one of the reasons for the conquest of Algeria was to stop Barbary pirates from kidnapping French people and selling them into slavery, something which the Regency of Algiers sanctioned and grew very rich from. This had been a problem for all of Europe for centuries, with millions of people being kidnapped in raids and sold into slavery. The French saw permanent occupation of the region as the means by which they would end this practice.
Because it's france
So, do you think France could or should apologise for the war of independence? Thoughts and comments below.
When Algeria apologies for the Barbary pirates perhaps? France should apologise for taking over in the first place if anything.
Should, yes -- in any sense that one should apologize for murder and abuse. Apology may not be the only thing in order, though.
Seems highly relevant, also, to the assassination of Moire in Haiti. I believe not very long ago, The Daily described the ways in which Moire wanted to publicize the debt payments that France continued to collect from Haiti for its independence, even until very recently. And a demand for returning debt payments. Making his mysterious assassination very suspicious, given France's treatment of its former colonies ...
On the one hand, that's some heavy speculation. On the other, does France deserve the benefit of doubt? It's history, and even its current behavior, makes it hard to think so.
Yes France should apologize
Algeria needs to apologize too for their past and by that I mean the events which preceded the French colonisation of algeria and such events consists of the enslavement of not only French but several other Europeans, in short Barbary slave trade.
Absolutely . . . right after the Arab League apologizes for the Arab Conquest which reached as far as Tours.
France killed over a million Algerians. If tgas not genoc8de tgan nothing is
La France n'a pas à présenter ses excuses, il faut que les Algériens cessent de se raconter des histoires.
Good morning James,
Great analysis and loved hearing your opinion on it. I would give my thought on how I see it as a French person. I do agree with Président Macron when he said colonialism in Algeria was a crime against humanity (then candidate Macron) and yes, I do see that it is unlikely for there to be an apology right now though I think that would be the eventual course of action - for unfortunately, the far-right Rassemblement National is the single largest opposition party right now (and the biggest misfortune we have right now is that they are seen as the only 'opposition' voice) - and this party was nothing more than something that was founded against de Gaulle's policy and subsequently absorbed many members of the organisation armée secrète after the war. Considering the reliance of the Borne government on RN for passing some legislation, for sure they would fear a backlash had the président made any remark on that regard. I see some level of acknowledgement for crackdown on peaceful protests in the 50s and 60s in Metropolitain France, which though not enough, is a step in the right direction).
One could be pedantic about if it was a case of decolonisation or secession (considering how Algeria was a part of France and not a colony - and was administered just like how Corsica or any other département of France is done today), regardless, that was a project headed for failure and to cement it as an 'integral part of France, crimes against humanity were committed). It should never have been done.
For now there seems to be some opposito While there is political tension, I do feel the people to people relation is good (based on my limited experience in interacting with Algerians or people of Algerian descent and a vibrant Algerian community in most major French cities) and that should pave way for reconciliation in the future.
On that note, have you read the works of Albert Camus ? (himself from a settler family, second generation) - and I like his book l'étranger (the foreigner ? ), though fictional, shows the clear disconnect between settlers and natives.
Have a good Sunday
Thank you so much Anirudh. I was really looking forward to hearing your take on it. Great points about the current political atmosphere in France. That is really helpful additional information. Thanks.
And brilliant point about whether it was decolonisation or secession. I should really look at this in more detail in another video. It is a fascinating question. I would say decolonisation, but I can certainly see how it could be secession. There are some interesting parallels with Russia. It is essentially a colonial empire that never decolonised, but any attempt by colonised people to try to break away is not seen a secession. (I also know a few who would argue the same about the UK.)
Thanks for the tip about Camus. It is fascinating to see how the political, social and cultural landscape in France has been so profoundly affected by the experience of Algeria.
Have a great rest of the weekend too!
@@JamesKerLindsay Hello James, glad that I could be of some help.
Whether the discussion on whether it is decolonisation or secession is something academic to me but does not make a difference considering what was done. Personally I see it as secession, but a secession that ought to have been done and I see parallels with Ireland for instance - where a place was taken over and made part of the more dominant country, where the majority of the place were treated as second class citizens - and Ireland in 1922 is seen as secession. I am not an expert on these topics but the way I say it for UK - India is a case of decolonisation, Ireland a case of secession. France - Senegal is decolonisation, Algeria was secession. Regardless of the terminology, it does not excuse what these two former empires did there.
Thanks Anirudh. It is such an interesting discussion. Again, I might try to return to this. It could be very interesting to consider in the case of Russia.
@@JamesKerLindsay indeed, would love to look into that aspect and as you point out, Russia is an interesting case as for instance, none of the central Asian Republics are seen as a product of decolonisation though they were clearly, conquered and colonised by the Russian empire (on the other side, I'm sure the media is likely to report a hypothetical separation of French Guiana from France as 'decolonisation' - so wondering if being contiguous also plays a part to this discussion).
The only reason that decolonization was primarily peaceful was because most colonial powers were bankrupt by WW2. As far as an apology, just as the United States refuses to give an official apology to African Americans for slavery, France understands that an apology is a LEGAL admission of liability and therefore MUST pay monetary compensation
Love these videos, they illuminate a few of the many gaps in my recent history and political knowledge and prod me to learn a little bit more about countries I rarely think about, thank you!
Its absurd that the French claimed Algeria was an integral and equal part of France, whilst treating the locals as second class citizens. A stain on the nations history.
However, a president who wasn't even born should not apologise for a crime he had no part in.
Apologize, Compensate …. With france giving a piece of its European territory to Algerians as part of that compensation.
Maybe Algeria should start the ball rolling by apologising for the Barbary Corsairs, and all innocent French people who they killed, enslaved, etc for centuries.
I met a rich Morrocan guy who told that he grew up near an American base in Morroco.
One day, he was hired by them for a very special and dangerous mission: first he received loads of bullets that he needed to cut the manufacturer name on each of them.
After that, he had to bring the ammo clandestinely to the FLN in Algeria without being caught.
He succeeded, returned alive to Morrocco and received tons of cash from the US.
Several years after the war he visited France and even met officials that told him "We know what you did and we don't keep any hard feeling".
He was never treated badly by the French. On the other hand, when he attempted to do the same in the US, every door was shut.
In the context of the Cold war, France was draining resources from NATO for its own war. The US were so pissed that they supported both sides against De Gaulle: the far right OAS and the independentist FLN.
Of course, this US policy grew bigger in the following decades with the Iran Contra affair for instance.
So according to this story....in the middle of the American war in Vietnam....Americans were supplying FLN forces against the French in Algeria.
And this operative was "cutting the manufacturer name on them."
Often bullets have the manufacturers name stamped on the bottom of the brass cartridge. Often they do not. But it would be nearly impossible for this individual to remove the manufacturer's name if it was stamped in by "cutting it."
Correction it’s was officially one and half million died and not one million. That’s was only in the 7 years war but that doesn’t reflect massacres done since 1832. I am from Algeria and lived the war and the independence as a kids I participated in that war almost killed by soldiers. No talks about the deep crimes caused by France and the barbaric schilling Algerians skulls trophies displayed in the Paris museum . Can you imagine Germany having displayed Jewish skull in Frankfurt museum ??? Hypocrites double standards discriminating so called civilized Christian world
Sure, France should apologise for it... Argelia should apologise for the hundreds of thousands of europeans enslaved first, thou.
Personally I see this as a case of actions speaking louder than words. Say, if France helps to alleviate the problems of colonization instead of a token apology. The dilemma is if youd rather whip up the French right or Algerians.
I am an Algerian citizen, my father is Algerian completely which is why i have it. I visited the country many times. my father is a bit of an ultranationalist. He was part of the military there. He told me that the FLN and Algerian Army practically invented algerian nationalism. The flag, song, and “national identity” was from the Military. All of this means, that national, political, and international politics of Algeria is filter through a government/military view. That means that Algerian citizens have the same general view as the military. The Algerians military is trained for counter-insurgency but also against a invading force from the north if you catch my drift. The Military doesn’t trust France so nor does the people. Not until the french apologizes, which is why they always demand it. Also most older, leading people remember the Algerian war so they wont forget, and the younger generations,educated by those older people, don’t remember but they wont forgive out of principle.
Another reason is the harkis and french settlers that left Algeria after the war, the pied-noir, the black feet, the traitors, in Algerian militaries view.
Why is the focus on the opposition of the political right and not on the overall sentiment of the country?
Because the French Political Right make up a good chunk of the voting base, barring the major cities. French sentiments and politics go hand in hand… With the rise of French Nationalism, Macron knows the wolves are at his door.
As france is a democratic country, it is represented by it's representatives
Acts speak louder than worlds, Algeria and France should find a way to work togheder toward prosperity of both nationa.
Excellent timing. Going to Algeria soon.
Congratulations on 100K subscribers ✌🏿✌🏿✌🏿✌🏿✌🏿✌🏿✌🏿✌🏿✌🏿
Thank you so much! :-)
If the algerians are going to apologize for the millions of europeans that were dragged into slavery or murdered by their corsairs, france should think about it, otherwise no. Algeria was conquered in a punitive war for the atrocities they commited and the danger they posed for global trade. It would be like germany rebelling against the occupying allies after ww2, it would be understandable, but not necessarily deserve sympathies
This brings into the perspective just how lucky the Dutch are. Theyd colonized Indonesia for 300 years yet the Indonesians bear no ill-feeling toward them.
Thanks. Great point. That is a really interesting story. I think it may have been because it happened fairly quickly after WWII and Japanese occupation. This may have wiped out a lot of the memory if Dutch rule. But it would be really interesting to look into it.
@@JamesKerLindsay well after WW2 and Japanese occupation ended the Dutch tried to colonize Indonesia again which spark the Indonesian War of Independence which i believe is among the bloodiest war in modern history. War crimes commited by both parties, guerilla war, making treaties breaking treaties, communist insurgence, islamist insurgence, untill the Dutch finally agreed to step away from Indonesia soil in 1949 as long as they were compensated. Yet the war rarely get mentioned in the international level eventhough it was the first war of independence against european colonial rule after WW2 and among the bloodiest, up to 600.000-1.500.000 people perished during the war which occured in less than 4 years (1945-1949), You really should look into it.
@@harukrentz435 Indeed. It really is a fascinating case. Again, I guess it may be because it happened so long ago and was tied up with the Second World War.
@@harukrentz435 , the reason your independence war rarely mentioned in international level, it because Dutch is not considered a great power since 19th century. Many westerners even amused by ability of Dutch to hold and rule millions of people in foreign lands thousand miles away, despite having a small, outdated military. The only reasons Dutch able to hold it is because belated nationalism movement (only started in 20th century), and no serious challenge from other great powers. Comparable to Belgian, Portuguese, and Spain situations in Africa/Asia.
Or most importantly: should France ever say sorry? There was no Algeria before the French and the country itself was a creation of the French administration. Even today Algeria is not a nation, but a country held together by its army. The peoples of Algeria (Arabs, Berbers, Tuaregs and Kabilas) are very violent themselves, and their historians always boasted of it. The violence of the war was brutal by both sides and got repeated in the 1990's during the Algerian civil war; will Algeria apologize for targeting civilians as their war strategy?
Whenever Algeria has a problem, it blames either France or Morocco. Right after the French left, the new governament massacred in medieval fashion the Algerian harkis, killed its own revolutionary leaders in succession and them got into war with Morocco. The Pied Noirs were ordered to leave Algeria under the order "Either the valise or the coffin", so they could steal their property. Is Algeria going to apologize for that too?
Il n'y avait pas de Monde avant les cités multi millénaires d'Al Geri ( Jijel 🤫)
Commence au moins au village de Collo ( chullu)
Im french and i guess it will be polemic. I m not opposed to an apologize if it can releave a part of the difficult past the 2 nations share. But I have no trust in the algerian governement intrumentalizing the resentment of the algerian. What I see from my point of view is that the history is politicaly used in Algeria. On the other side no one can forgive without apologies. So I think the french people can apologize to the Algerian people without implicating both governments. And if the power change, is no more legitimate by the independance war, than why not ? And one day maybe the other side will apologize for the crime from the other side, more justified and less important but still crime and we could hope for a reconcilliation. But I don't think it will happen. You say sorry for you or for a recconcilliation. Algerian don't want to have something to do with us but want to have something from us. Then the only condition left is that we say sorry for us to feel in peace with that. I think it's enough important to do so but must be done in an intelligent way otherwise it will be used against us. And I personaly have done nothing to Algeria.
As an Algerian among the few last ppl who speaks french fluently and i have two of my uncles were tortured by the french military . i have nothing to expect from France but if apologizes have to be made it has to be the French state to the Algerian ppl, not French ppl to Algerian ppl because the french ppl have nothing to do in misdid of their government . perhaps time will heal but if france wants to keep a special tie with Algeria as Macron wants they should be more proactif .
Well I do not trust the french government as an Algerian since they too have weaponized the Algerian history for the vote... Macron did it a year ago before the elections and many other presidents did it in a way or another... Both France and Algeria have lobbies in their rulling system a party that wants to apologize in France and others that don't want to and in Algeria a large part that doesn't want relations with France until they apologize and another part that doesn't want to mix the economic and political relations with history... For now I see that in Algeria hate towards France has grown a lot especially when ppl were told that Bouteflika had close ties with France so now France is kinda the enemy, as for France the far right mouvement is leading and all the ancient french Algeria mouvement is trendy so I don't think things will get better or that France will apologize
Looking for a treaty for a singer instrument. France deducted lands from Algeria and gave them to Morocco. The area of these lands is equal to the size of Greece
Ridiculous, there were no algerian central state before the colonization and much less with the actual boundaries. THe only thing was the Regence of Algiers, a turkish client state that was the excuse for the barbary pirates to operate...
I think France has done a great job by allowing thousands of Algerians to immigrate to France where they live a much better life than if they had stayed in Algeria. That is better than an apology which is just words.
Algeria needs to get over this. Most Americans do not worry about getting an apology from the British. Are the Algerians blaming the French for the state of their country because France did not give them a "We're sorry"?
Full ceconciliation to bridge over the past of these two countries will be just as tough as the battle of Algiers.
I feel so much international tension could be reduced by the former colonial empires apologizing and strengthening efforts to develop economic ties with their former colonial realms, rather than trying to continue to exploit the regions
As a Tunisian, I feel terribly sorry for all the millions of lives shattered by criminal France both in North Africa and the continent as a whole. However this bit at 9:07 is historically correct. There was never an official "algerian state" prior to France. In fact, the political and geographical landscape for the algerian state was erected by the Barbarossa brothers when they invaded Algiers, a small town during the early 16 century and made it the capital of a new ottoman vilaya. Prior to that, nothing was ever centered around Algiers nor indicative of an algerian state. Some historians like to debate that an "algerian nation" existed during the rule of Zayyanid dynasty but those were actually centered in modern western algeria around Tlemcen and never extended towards the east. So to sum up, Macron although we hate him in Tunisia, was completely accurate with that description. Whether and how that's relevant with the question of apology, I don't see how that's relevant. France must pay for its mistakes in Africa and it will. sooner or later. As you can notice, most Tunisians are shifting away from French education system.
The same could be said of all countries. It's a ridiculous point. Human rights violations are human rights violations.
Lol looks like a Moroccan narrative, Algeria did not exist , Mauritania did not exist, western Sahara did not exist therefore should be Moroccan territories...lol
Tunisia is shifting away from French education system? This is something I did not expect under kais
@@milominderbinder6209 Well it's not his policy. The "elitists" in the Tunisian society still brag about speaking French. However the inner society and especially the younger generation is naturally shifting away to English, German, Italian and with that pushing for a Governmental mentality change. It's slow though as the older generation still dominates politics.
I think it's clear from the comments from Algerians here that even if France apologises, they won't accept it which makes the apology pointless. Imo, countries who are more focused on dwelling on the past than focusing on the future should just adopt a policy of peaceful coexistence similar to what the US and the USSR did during the cold war rather than continue these stupid and frankly pointless attempts at reconciliation that will dissolve when someone on the political right in gets in or someone who wants to bring up the past in gets in.
I suppose you'd say the same of Armenians, and that it isn't antisemitic if all the random claims of lost wealth and property stop causing money to be funneled to Israel stop?
@@hmmm3210 Yeah I would say the same because 1) Grievance mongering is a cancer upon humanity that leads to nothing but war and conflict (As Yugoslavia so eloquently showed) 2) Israel gets more than enough money through foreign aid from the US, EU and U.K. they don’t need anymore of it and so I could care less as to why Armenia does that or what it’s reasons are. Imo people need to realise that history is something to learn from and not dwell on and if we adopted that mindset we could cut down world tension by about 50% and end about 33% of all wars fought in the world. But unfortunately humans are inherently vengeance seeking creatures and so this will never happen. Not to mention that this is an easy tactic to get a failing politician’s approval ratings up and to help them win an election so it’s nothing but pure cynicism at the end of the day and its beyond stupid how people fall for it every single time
France cut off lands from Algeria and presented them to Morocco. The area of the lands is equivalent to the size of Greece. Return our land first.
@@user-em6ff6lv5z Take it up with Morocco as they are the ones who have the land now. Also, what doesn’t Morocco have to do with anything?
Repearing the past and solve it not keep it hidden
I am Algeria ,the apologize not in word in action
Fist there many algerian was expulsed to new calidonia ,there were eradicated from there parry and their family and now million Algerians in New Calédonie who are looking for their relative in Algeria but now data's exacts
Many archives were taken from Algeria
Also many Martyrs still not burry since 1850 and their cadaver in museum of human been in France ,they keep them for exhibition!!!!! As Muslim country burry the human been after dyeing is a minimum right
We recieved only eleven cadaver of martyrs from five hundred cadavers declared (last year) 2021 November
And until today we have people who die or accident to become handicap because of the mines planted in Algeria and we are removing them but still there are because the map is with France !!!!
To count the total of Martirs we couldn't because the martirs from 1830 to 1954 is with france
So how you justify all this
And to recognisation of genocides
Thousaand if Algeria burned in grot
And and more than handred explosed in the mosque by france
And the list is long
.how we write our history if there is no recognization
Lot of things in museum Louvre were stollen from Algeria.
And and and and. And
(Is nice to care about your children and offer them a good life and best food. Bit it should not from steal ,it should be from hard work )
Well spoken my dear
France has no business apologizing. With this logic the entire world will continually apologize for everything and anything. Human history is brutal but it’s history.
Thanks to the occupation of Algeria by France in 1848, the terror of the North African slavers on the European coasts finally ended after hundreds of years. First let Algeria apologize for that. Then we'll see.
That was in the fucking 18 hundreds, many of our grandparents fought France and still remember it, THERE'S A DIFFRENCE
@@algerianmonarchist8017 So if something happened in the 18th century was it less bad than if it happened in the 19th century? What wonderful logic. If you don't have better excuses to make your point, it's best to shut up. The slave market of Algiers functioned until the day the French put an end to it. In 1816, an Anglo-Dutch fleet bombed Algiers, freeing 5000 European slaves. That was not in the 18th century. Here is a notarized deed from 1830 in which a man legalized himself because he had no birth certificate because his mother who was pregnant with him was dragged by slavers from her village in Italy to Algiers and sold as a slave there and he was born there
Quote/ Atto notorio per la nascità dello sposo:
“L'anno mille ottocento trenta, il giorno venticinque del mese di agosto alle ore diciannove in Staiti avanti a noi Giuseppe Morando Reg. giudice del circondario di Staiti assistito dal cancelliere sostituto. sign. Montella si è presentato Vincenzo Pisano fu Francesco di anni 25, bracciale, domiciliato in Brancaleone ed ha detto che circa venticinque anni sono, nacque egli tra i momettani in Tunisi perché suo padre e sua madre erano stati fatti schiavi daite Pizzazio e dei padri Dominicani della religione Spagnola e gli fece da compare un individuo schiavo siciliano nativo di Trapani. Non potendo egli verificare in altro modo la sua nascità per poter prender moglie, si è presentato da noi per fare a suo favore l'atto di notorietà ed ha dato per testimoni i sette seguenti individui:
1- Fortunato Jeracitano fu Vincenzo di anni cinquantaquattro, vaticale di Staiti, dimorrante nel fundaco di Brancaleone, che in tempo della nascità del detto Vincenzo Pisano, perché trovava si anche schiavo in Tunisi e sa benissimo che vi nascità da costali i Parisi che fu fatta schiava col deponende insieme nel tempo che in una notte stavano nel fondaro di Brancaleone.
2- Domenico Musitano fu Giuseppe di anni sessanta quattro, scrivente comunale di Staiti.
3- Francesco Trunfio fu Antonino di anni sessanta cinque, vaticale di Staiti.
4- Antonino Principato del fu Domenico, ferrajo di anni cinquanta di Staiti.
5- Bruno Zappia fu Giovanni di anni cinquanta due di Staiti.
6- Giuseppe Trunfio di Francesco di anni trentacinque di Staiti.
7- Antonino Parisi fu Fortunato di anni trenta di Brancaleone.
I quali tutti uniformamente hanno dicchiarato sapere per pubblico detto e fama che quando fu fatta schiava Orsola Parisi, madre del Pisano era gravida e la portari in Tunisi ed acquistarono tutti la libertà dopo che gli Inglesi in tempo del ammirambard del Regno di Napoli furono tutti posi in libertà.
Quindi abbiamo steso il presente che va letto scritto da noi dal nostro cancelliere avendo dichiarato tutti gli altri di non saper scrivere per lo quale si sono impiegati due vacazioni."
/end quote
So I commend the day when the French conquered Algeria, saving countless Europeans from a terrible fate that befell millions of Europeans in the centuries between ca. 750 and 1848.
And by the way, swearing doesn't make your argument any better.
@@bcvanrijswijk did the dutch apologize for indonesia? Did the dutch also apologize to its people when they betrayed them to nazi germany?.
Stop giving algeria credit its a fake artificial nation
@@bcvanrijswijk who read?
What north African slavers, do you have real historical sources and documents,there was no north African slavery it's a modern myth fabricated by neocolonialists and far right propagandists,there was no Algerian pirates it's another myth fabricated by colonialist to excuse their atrocities. Colonialism is a crime period.
The reality is you cannot ask the son to apologize for the sins of the father or grandfather
There is a genuine part of me that wishes france had not been blinded by their distorted imperial viewpoint. The French should have treated all algerians as they did mainland french if they were a genuine part of france as the french claimed. Imagine if this alternate reality took place then i truly believe the relations between north africa and europe would be so much more productive and intertwined especially with the EU because a mirror between that and the roman empire could have been made since romans were more keen on integration and cooperation rather than genocide and exploitation.
I really feel as though modern history would have truly benefited with this cultural bridge instead france was wholly incapable of practicing what they preach just like the united States... I wonder why rome and many other could comparatively be more effective at assimilating conquered people instead wholesale condemnation and brutality.
Anyways thanks for coming to my TED talk
I'm Algerian and I will not forgive France even if it apologized...
France for 130 years has been committing crimes against the Algerians , Even during the revolution, #NATO supported #France with weapons and soldiers in order to ki|l the Algerians.
You mean like the FNL did to the pieds noirs ? Then Harkis ? The jews ?
So what you’re saying is that a French apology would accomplish nothing. So why would they even bother with one?
Everyone who agreed to French citizenship was considered a traitor, and we still consider them traitors, even their children and grandchildren, all of whom left with France after independence
but only the #Jews, after 5 years of the occupation of Algeria, declared themselves to be French.. Then people like you talk about them as if we created the problem
@@JohnSmith-dj2ml
My answer to them is: Put the apology in your a§§
Could please apologize first for enslaving People more than thousand years - before you ask for apologizes? Thank you.
2:37 Algeria's GDP reached 200 billion dollars which makes the per capita at around 4540 USD
Thanks. I used the World Bank figures. I work off these in all my videos as the most authoritative and consistent figures.
The French should only apologize when the Algerians do the same for the Barbary Slave Trade.
I keep hearing this. But the issue isn’t about people being responsible for acts committed hundreds of years ago. It is about the state. The French state committed atrocities. And did so in an era when it should have known better. That is the point here. This was done by a country under the modern system of international law, not by a wholly different and extinct entity in a very different era.
@@JamesKerLindsay So atrocities committed against Europeans don't matter because they happened a long time ago but current French citizens, who weren't even alive at the time, should be castigated for everything done during colonialism. These same people should also grovel for forgiveness just because they have the same state apparatus, got it.
@@jacobcantrell82 No. Read my reply again. It is about a state admitting responsibility. I made that point clearly. What happened hundreds of years ago by an actor that doesn’t exist anymore is very different from what was done sixty years ago by a state - a legal entity - that continues to exist. Law is about precision. It is important not to argue on emotion or what you feel should be the case, but to argue on the law and facts of the situation.
@@JamesKerLindsay Except trying to remove emotion from this discussion just is not possible. Algerians aren't upset about colonialism because some academic legal precept was violated or some casualty statistics from a war before they were alive. They are emotional because their concept of their nation and people was attacked by a foreign power and occupied. My emotions inform me that this is hypocritical considering their ancestors attacked the French coastline for centuries and were only stopped when the French got strong enough. The Algerians aren't upset that people were harmed; they are upset that their victim got strong enough to retaliate. Trying to say that it is the state people live under and not the people themselves that determines guilt for past actions just comes off as blame shifting so one side is guilt but the other isn't despite also committing terrible actions. Trying to extract emotion from this scenario removes the whole reason it is important.
@@jacobcantrell82 Never underestimate an anti-westerner's ability to victim blame and portray aggressors as innocent.
Excellent video again! I am unsure whether or not France should apologise to be honest. Algeria has suffered a lot since independence though as seen with the civil war that lasted 11 years between the Algerian government and the FIS and GIA extremist groups and the coups that have happened since 1962 have led to extremely authoritarian governments leading the country. I hope Algeria finds peace and manages to fully restore democratic government after Boutefilka died in 2019.
Democracy is a mess in the middle east. I don't believe in it, as well as majority of Middle Easterns, according to statistics
@@Omer1996E.C If that is the case then fine. Humanitarian intervention has failed and it’s up to Middle Easterns and North Africans to decide what they want. It’s not the west’s job to decide for you.
@@cricketman1322 indeed, but the west doesn't want to leave us. They support dictators we don't like, but opposes the one we likes. It's not only in MENA, but also in all of Africa, without exception
I guess it is easier for the french parliament to blame other countries of genocide rather than looking at its own colonial past.
The best form of apologize is a struggle against the ongoing genocides
With that shameful relatively recent history France dare to blame Turkey for much older events
We don't need their apology, nothing can make us forget our Algerian Martyrs that were tortured for 130 years. What they did in Algeria was a genocide, and its negative impact still exist till today. They literally had the Martyrs skulls displayed in their french museums till 2020.
Our people will never forget, May the Martyrs rest in peace
As a french, i's hard to summarized French colonization of Algeria in 15mn. I don't think that we french people shouldn't apologize for colonization and war but at the same time I think it's important to respect every memories including the memory of the Harkis and Pieds-noirs who had been killed by the Algerians at that time. Considering the fact that Algeria regularly does antifrench propaganda, for exemple the case of the iron of the Eiffel Tower (FLN Algerians said that the iron came from Algerian mines which is completely wrong as it came from Nancy and Lorraine mines), I think apologies are very inlikely to happen. Moreover, Algeria is a military and islamist dictatorship so it easy for them to blame France every time something bad happens in order to shirk the responsabilities and the problems of its country.
To conclude, I think we french people should ask the french gouvernement to apologize to Algeria. But at the same time, we shouldn't forget the memories of everyone and more important we shouldn't accept everything that say the FLN and the islamist propaganda as it will not help everyone. The best way is to reconcile every memories, french people and Algerian people.
Best regards, a proud but humanist french man.
Le régime algérien est certainement militaire mais pas islamiste, les français adorent utiliser ce mots dès qu'ils ont plus d'arguments.
Just make a realistic Netflix mini series, if you have the guts.
Show the gray areas and let the discussion begin.
@@averagecitizen863 L'Algérie est un pays dont la religion d'État est officiellement l'islam. Le droit algérien c'est la charia. La constitution ne fait pas non plus mention de liberté de culte. Les minorités sont soumises à des discriminations dont la source est la religion, etc.
Je peux continuer longtemps. Ça ne suffit pas à l'inclure dans "dictature islamique" selon vous ? De plus islamisme et fondamentalistes islamiques ne signifient pas terrorisme islamique. La vie politique algérienne est fondé sur l'islam politique. Or cette politique est de nature autoritaire.
Donc oui, l'Algérie est bien une dictature islamique.
It seems like any French presidents will never apologize in matters to their colonial past bcz they don't want to enrage the right and far-right politicians in France, triggering further strain in France's touchy and delicate politics.
James' presentation of colonization and the crimes and massacres of the war of independence seems to me unbalanced and anachronistic: it is obvious that today these facts would be as decried as the special operation of the Russians in Ukraine, but the France of today, including more than a million perfectly integrated Algerian families, has nothing to do with the France of that time. Why would it ask for forgiveness without reciprocity?
The genocide of the Algerian people by France needs to come to the broader attention of the international community and the public. France must - once and for all - officially apologize, and pay rightful reparations to the Algerian state and to the relatives of the murdered. My condolences to the people of Algeria. PS. Watch the movie "The Battle Of Algiers". DS.
Algeria owes France an apology and reparations for the mass murders that followed independence. Then they can give the territories they still occupy back to Morocco.
France should say that they are sorry, but not really mean it. This has been a really successful strategy on my part in my life! On the one hand, it basically makes it impossible to ever sincerely be apologetic and have the apology be accepted later on. On the other hand, expecting an apology is perhaps one of the most toxic behaviors in human behavior, so it shouldn't be encouraged.
It is good to acknowledge when you behaved in a hurtful manner in interpersonal relationships to better understand each other, but also for your own growth. I think the same applies to coutries in a social or cultural sense, if not a political one.
They won't because once they do, they have to pay reparations.
Hmmm
Should Ukraine expect apologies from russia for war crimes in Bucha, Mariupol or Izyum ?
@@hkchan1339 get out of here.
France should apologize for their crimes and algeria should thank france for its creation and borders.
The reason, or one of the reasons, why it was so hard for France 🇫🇷 to give up Algeria 🇩🇿 is that Algeria 🇩🇿 was divided into three departments, more or less like counties in USA 🇺🇸, which are tge basic political unit in France 🇫🇷. These three departments had the same status as Paris, Lyon or Marseille, which was crazy, but that was their mindset.
De Gaulle realized that eventually there would be a bunch of Muslims in the National Assembly (Congress) in Paris, and that couldn’t be. That, added to the fact that the colonial war wasn’t going well, led De Gaulle to grant Algeria 🇩🇿 independence, which enraged the far right and it tried to assassinate him.
If Algeria were part of France, the French would not test their nuclear weapons in Reggane
@@user-em6ff6lv5z Why not? USA 🇺🇸 tested nuclear weapons in Nevada, and people, clueless obviously, went to watch as if it were a movie.
@@user-em6ff6lv5z Also SSSR tested it's nuclear weapons in Siberia.
@ i don't care about Russia
@@carlosmiro4932 i don't care about usa
Wow I’m so early
France will not apologize until it has completely rid itself of the Francafrique mindset. This should happen within the next few decades as former colonies turn the tables and show France who's colonizing who like Niger did with the Areva uranium price dispute.
Hopefully nobody is colonizing nobody
Im not a fan of countries making formal apologies. It would be never ending as every country esp one that had power committed some kind of crime in the past . I'd say it's enough if French politicians acknowledge that the occupation and war were brutal without formally apologizing . I also think comments such as those by Macron when he said the Algerian government was stuck in the past and using it for self legitimization are totally misplaced .
Another thing ,doesn't Algerian owe its borders to the French ? The French added extensive territories to historical Algeria making it as big as it is today .
Est ce que l'Algérie doit s'excuser pour l'esclavage berbère? Je ne pense pas. La France non plus. L'occident doit arrêter de s'auto-flageller. Et je dit ça en tant qu'immigrant chinois vivant au Québec. Si les pays démocratiques commencent à s'auto-flageller, ça va seulement profiter au dictateurs ailleurs. Soyez fier de votre histoire.
France was brutal and has reason to be sorry, but would an apology really end or relieve tension? Or would it be taken as a sign of weakness and lead to greater Algerian demands and leverage over France?
Thanks. Excellent questions. Apologies are often a lot more political and far-reaching than people appreciate. It isn’t always felt to be as easy as saying sorry. It can carry potential economic implications too.
France 🇫🇷 & Turkey 🇹🇷 has brutal colonial periods. But the UK 🇬🇧 was an angel 😇 👼 sent from god 🤪
Not sure who said it was. But this was a video about France and Algeria. If you want videos on Britain and the legacy of colonialism I have plenty of those.
what's with the weird very quiet background music
noticed it in the last video too
The World with peace, unity and love,,, watching from berbera somaliland rep,, v
cool vid!, i don't know what to choose tbh, a question tho since we are talking about countries taking over each other? what do you think abt the claims of ppl in south Yemen claiming that their county "south arabia" has been taken over by the north?
They united, not invaded each other. There is a difference
@@Omer1996E.C will yeah at first, but then when the south asked to go back to being their own country "south arabia" the north launched an attack on the south
@@lfmsmka nobody launched an attack. It was the central government trying to avoid division. The government composes of northern and Southern states representatives. Even today the temporary capital city is in the south, with a rebellion in the north
@@Omer1996E.C yeah that’s what I’m saying, them “stopping” the division shouldn’t have happened if the people of the south wanted to divide because it was two countries coming together anyways
@علي يا سر do u meaning like pouring oil into a fire? if yes, tbh honest i kinda do agree but like with who? if the south decided to divide after the war its their right tbh i see the country turning into a federal state is the best choice at this time like a south arabia and yemen going under the name united yemen and to each side their rules.
Again its the choice of the people of the ppl they are the ones who suffered its their legal choice to choose
I would say France could apologise for colonialism, if Algeria apologises for the Barbary slave trade that incited the French into invading them. More than a million Europeans were kidnapped and sold as slaves by Barbary pirates, who operated on behalf of the Regency of Algiers, making them very rich. I think it would be reasonable for Algeria as the modern state of Algiers to apologise for that.
Don't get me wrong,Algeria should apologize over slavery. But France cannot justify their colonization in the name of abolishing piracy and slavery
So you compare a colonialism that was there for over 130 years to a slave trade that was under the ottomans empire when everyone practiced slave trade at that time?? I swear white people are crazy 😂
France cut off lands from Algeria and presented them to Morocco. The area of the lands is equivalent to the size of Greece. Return our land first.
The opportunity began after the Battle of Algiers, October 1541. 6 European countries attacked us. What do you expect us to do?
@@ihavenojawandimustscream4681 Indeed... and this is why I find the whole 'nations apologising' thing to be a little silly. It boils down to a tit-for-tat search for who can count the most or most severe historical grievances to leverage for diplomatic advantage. The apology itself is inherently insincere and meaningless, coming from people alive today to other people alive today who often have nothing to do with those historical events.
I think it would be more mature for both countries to simply acknowledge the bad history and pledge to move forward with a more productive and equal partnership.
Great analysis....!!!! Algeria was part of France but Moslem Algerians were second class citizens with their legal and civil rights restricted by the racist Code de L' indigenat .....and Charles de Gaulle granted independence because he did not want 8 million Moslems to become French citizens....it's all about demographics.....he famously said : my home town will become Colombey les deux Mosquees instead of Colombey les deux eglises......and he was right, the 9 millions Moslems in 1954 are 44 millions today with another 3 millions living in France...... something similar is stopping Israel from annexing and giving the Moslems who live in the West Bank Israeli Citizenship like they did in 1949...to the Arabs who lived there within it's borders.
It is indeed true that French were extremely and extra ordinarily brutal as they first captured the country, during their entire colonial period and then as they fought the freedom fighters. I was very shocked to see a video of a French soldier just casually killing a villager on the back as he was quietly walking in the distance, as if he was not a human being but may be a bird. The shooting was filmed!! Then he started shooting at a small tent on the side of a dirt road and the family in the tent fell over and the tent fell apart. Possibly the killing was done to have something interesting to be filmed!!! The French did not see the Algerians as human beings at all!! I wonder what they thought of themselves then and what they think of themselves now!! If even after 60 years they are not apologetic, they are refusing to see their own face in the mirror!
I knew a man who grew up in French Algeria as a son of Pieds Noirs parents. He maintained that at the start of the FLN guerrilla war against the French Colonial Government, the majority of the Algerian population both Muslim and European did not approve of a guerrilla style war and preferred the colonial government. However the FLN began targeting and killing Pieds Noirs civilians instead of just attacking government posts. The French army reacted in turn by indiscriminately killing Muslim civilians in retaliation. This turned the majority population away the colonial government and towards the FLN. At the time of the independence referendum, 99% of Algeria's population voted for independence. Then there was the Oran massacre of Europeans right after independence and that really fueled enduring hate between the two groups.
This is a clear lie. There was no any time in Algerian colonial era where majority of the Algerian people supported the colonial rule
sounds more like it. fast forward to 2022, Algerians are now doing what it takes to live in France , even if it means that they become an invasive species
stop with lies
@@ghost-vl1qx Perhaps I should explain in more detail. I really should have phrased it as "the majority of the population, Pied Noirs and Muslim, did not approve initially of the FLN because it was a guerrilla war movement. In this respect the majority of the Algerian population preferred the French Colonial Government.
@@marathonman1205 Eight French lawmakers have submitted a draft law to the Parliament demanding it recognise the "horrific massacres, retaliation and public square executions" committed against the French and Europeans who lived in the Algerian city of Oran in 1962. It had a huge impact in France even if few know about it in America.