In Conversation with David Frum: Iran's missile attack against Israel & Indian residential schools
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Leading author, journalist and thinker David Frum and The Hub's Editor-at-Large Sean Speer discuss the latest developments in the Middle East, including Iran’s ballistic missile attack against Israel and what a “good outcome” might entail, and reflect on next week’s one-year anniversary of Hamas’s terrorist attacks against Israel. They also discuss new Canadian legislation that would criminalize dissenting views on Indian residential schools.
The Hub Dialogues features The Hub's editor-at-large, Sean Speer, in conversation with leading entrepreneurs, policymakers, scholars, and thinkers on the issues and challenges that will shape Canada's future at home and abroad.
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It is not simply the allegations of genocide that lack legitimacy. It is the central conclusion of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission - that the residential schools were an instrument of cultural genocide - is also false. The proposition of cultural genocide rests on two assertions. That the government of Canada instituted the schools as an instrument for the elimination of indigenous cultures through a purposeful indoctrination of Western religious beliefs. Further, that the children of indigenous families were coerced into attendance at the schools for this purpose.
In fact, twelve residential schools existed in Western Canada before Confederation. As J.R, Miller documents in his 1996 book - Shingwauk's Vision: A History of Native Residential Schools - these schools were the product of cooperation between indigenous communities seeking to adapt to the changing circumstances of settlement and what might be termed entrepreneurial evangelicals. The Davin Report, the document which was instrumental in the creation of the residential schools by the newly formed federal government, explicitly based its recommendations on this Western Canada school experience. Nowhere in the report is there any consideration of the use of the schools for the purpose of cultural integration. Further, the establishment of individual schools was almost uniformly a matter of an application for funds by indigenous communities for funds made available through the numbered Treaty process. Within areas covered by a numbered treaty funds were made available to indigenous communities upon application. Applications from communities outside an area covered by a numbered treaty, were generally denied. An exception to this general rule was the small school at Shebunacadie, Nova Scotia - established at the request of a local tribe - which was the only school established with Federal government funding in the entirety of the Maritimes.
The Federal government established just five schools on its own initiative. These were designed as schools for advanced vocational training of students deemed promising by other indigenous schools in the federal system. They were focused - not at all on religious instruction - but on transmitting agricultural skills. These schools were the culmination of the ambition of the Davin Report: to advance the vocational training of the indigenous population in order that these skills could be applied in what was - at that time - a largely agricultural economy. That this goal was accomplished is a memory that has largely been forgotten.
Forgotten, as well, is the reason that these schools were all shut down by the early 1920's. They were shut down because indigenous families were unwilling to send their children the large distances necessary to attend these advanced schools. Nor was there any legislation available that would have enabled coercion of attendance. It was the very failure of the federal schools that motivated (what was then) the Department of Indian Affairs to introduce coerced school attendance in 1921. It is also a forgotten part of history that this coercion was part of a larger initiative to assimilate indigenous populations into Canadian society through the extinguishment of "Indian status rights". The Bill enacting this change was passed by a Conservative government in 1921 and repealed by Liberals in the following year.
The repeal followed active protests of this change to their status rights by indigenous communities. This is a further example of the agency of these communities in affairs important to their interests, an agency that is routinely denied to them by "progressive" historiography. That their protests did not also include animus towards compulsory school attendance is worth considering. Rather, residential school attendance in the years subsequent to 1921 was not compelled because of the reluctance of the RCMP to engage its force in the work of truant agents. There is a memorandum written by Duncan Campbell Scott to the Indian Agents of the DIA requesting that these agents not use the local branches of the RCMP to pursue truants as the police force had begun to charge the Department exorbitant sums for engaging their men in this pursuit. This memorandum was submitted by the Superintendent of the RCMP to the Royal Commission during its hearings. Apparently the Commission did not find it of relevance to its conclusions.
What cannot be denied was that there was abuse of students in the schools and that, further, even though the overall administration of the schools was left to the governing bodies put in place by the several churches that ran the individual schools, the ultimate responsibility for these unacceptable transgressions lies with the federal government. However, this is not to say that abuse was some part of a genocidal intent on the part of the government.
It has been forgotten that the report of systematic abuse at residential schools occurred not in indigenous schools run by the federal government, but in orphanages operated by the Catholic Church in Newfoundland. Abuse in Canada's indigenous residential schools has to be seen a wider context. Abuse in non-indigenous institutions for the care of children have been reported elsewhere in Canada, notably in Nova Scotia and British Columbia. Similar abuse has been extensively reported on in Boston and its surrounds. There have been recent reports of this sort of abuse in Catholic-run institutions in Portugal, effecting 5000 former child residents. A similar report in France places its estimate of children effected in similar circumstances at 125,000. In none of these latter cases was cultural assimilation or genocide a credible motivation. An alternative explanation is available in the scholarly work of Irving Goffman on "total institutions".
That I should be deterred from writing any of this by a statute prohibiting "denialism", is abhorrent to me. The Atlantic Magazine in the US is currently running a series of podcasts on the moves necessary to create an autocracy. The first step in this process - the podcasters assert - is the promulgation of a "big lie". I would suggest that assertions that the establishment of European civilization in North America is inherently evil is one such lie. One that needs to be vigorously and continually contested.
amen mr frum...regarding your take on canadian history
This Canadian appreciates the moment of clarity on a difficult national conversation that Mr. Frum has provided. Thank you.
Thank you for the very eloquent perspective on Canadian history. Many early settlers in Canada were indentured servants and impoverished workers. Others came over time, escaping war and genocide; Holodomor, Holocaust, Rwanda, Bosnia Herzegovina, etc. We all built this country together. When some Canadian First Nations want lots of Federal money to excavate some land, I can't help but think of the thousands of Indigenous South American's paying Human Traffickers to come to North America for a better life. There's something wrong here. Canada needs to do some critical evaluations of these issues around the entitlement of First Nations people.
Thanks for continuing your discussions with Frum.
"America has no friends, only interests." - Dean Acheson.
This statement really should be cast in stone. It was repeated after the Rwandan genocide when survivors asked American politicians why they didn’t help their friends and stop the atrocities. America doesn’t have friends, only interests, he replied.
David Frum has perfectly articulated how most Canadians view the current situation in Canada. Unfortunately the Liberal government doesn’t share this view. Their current standing in the poles reflects their total mismanagement of this issue. Canada doesn’t need apologies, we need leadership to go forward. Thank you Mr Frum.
Great analysis on both issues, Israel / Iran, plus the indigenous grave matter - thank you 🍁
I agree with the sentiment. Truth and Reconciliation should be about declaring a commitment to a shared future and a common home, not defining battle lines, identifying enemies, or conceding any particular fact. Anyone who tries to do this should be shunned as a race-baiting subversive probably trying to smuggle in God knows what.
Great Insights ~ so realistic ~ very hard truths
As a First Nation and European originated Canadian love David's opinions on First Nations and Canada.
I listen to The Hub, and to David Frum, because they are worth listening to.
They are warmongering fools.
Surprising how much smarter Iranians are than Ashkenazis at these kind of strategic games.
Israel is very stressed. Interesting.
Truth and reconciliation day- a holiday set aside for lies and sowing racial hatred.
It has become Post-truth politics and Reconciliation day.
Is this the dude who invented the "axis of evil" thingy?
There are no indigenous people in Canada … we’re all settlers … the first Canadian settlers came from East Asia via the ice bridge over the Bering Strait. They went back and forth then decided to stay in the Americas because of abundant resources
Just go back to Europe please. It's First Nations land.
I like the term First People - most accurate.
There are first nations, and there are settlers whom were born somewhere else. Everyone born here in Canadian, is not a settler, is not a colonizer, is instead indigenous to Canada from birth. I find the settler label is used in a derogatory manner enough to constitute a racist and abhorrent label, even though I have admiration and gratitude for the settling of Canada by Europeans hundreds of years ago.
Stop parsing definitions. These people were already here when we arrived. They were before us. That makes them First Nations
Stupid comment by an ignorant vanilla
The Story of schools is told as though only students attended them. As though there were no teachers or staff, other than in the memories of the complainants. But there were such people, and they were known to people who are alive today. My great aunt was one of them, and she was the most selfless and kind person I know. As were the other members of her family, though she took the path of service. She was also a highly educated woman who was an excellent scholar, the likes of which one rarely encounters in schools today. I did her taxes once, back in the 70s, and she made around 4 thousand dollars, and gave 1/3rd of it away. She raised 4 children. But at least she isn't here to defend herself. Which is the fate that faces all of us.
Brilliant, as usual. A cooler head in a sea of neer-do-wells and the misguided.
Canada has a long tradition of PMs from Quebec. When they attack the history of the country, and sew division, as they generally have not, some people will wonder which community they are really trying to further the interests of. That is a dangerous fuse to light.
We would do well to adopt some of the nationalist fervor that Quebecois feel about their own society. I think that was Frum's point.
And the Old Testament is a book of fiction and not a deed of property to people whose descendants wrote it, David.
Brutal, just brutal.
Brilliant
What a load.
Canada is not an European settler nation like the United States or many other former colonies frankly. There wasn't even one settler language, and the differences mount from there.
Stone aged? Yeah, in the stone age maybe. Indigenous societies also evolved, sometimes adapting European technologies more effectively. And vice versa, Canada was surveyed by canoe. So enough of this postering. Our development as a nation was much more organic than Frum is pretending.
Frankly this is pointed to with land acknowledgements. It is IS living history. As in, how this nation-state, this citizenship started as treaties between peoples, not stolen or conquered land, and how it evolved, it got built, together, from there.
As much as Frum wants to deny it, there were 3 founding peoples, not 2, and that is what land acknowledgements remind us.
And from that start, we went from a colonial backwater of two european empires to G7 nation.
How many former colonies can boast of that?
Zero
Secondly, you don't achieve reconciliation by skipping over the findings of the Truth & Reconciliation, and taking the media's superficial version of it, which was mostly wrong.
For example, the commission found the unmarked graves is simply a function of successive govts balking at the cost of maintaining them. That's the finding. Not some secret serial killer scheme.
David forgot to mention the possibility of rescuing the Abraham Accords. If Israel can achieve deterrence over Iran and its proxies, the AA has a chance of uniting many states in the ME, and brining more peace, more prosperity, and for Israel, the security it so craves. Life is for living. ❤
The biggest obstacle is Netanyahu’s interminable war mongering, not Iran’s acts of self-defence against Israeli aggressions and acts of war.
I'm really interested in what the guy who championed the US invasion of Iraq has to say about what the US and Israel should do about Iran😅
October 7th proved him right though.
@@vger9186 Would love a source connecting Iran with Oct 7. Has the same Iraq WMD energy.
@@SuperKripke wow you guys are going to be easier to defeat then I thought.
@@vger9186 Israel is going to "defeat" Iran just like the US "defeated" the Taliban.
I could only watch 4 min of this goof ball 😣
Frum lives off his mothers career
Two grown man ? They believe on their own narrative big time , that’s the problem!
The “axis of evil wmd Iraq war” guy schools us with his deep knowledge lol.
How many times....Israel into Gaza?????????
As many as it takes for the Palestinians to decide Israel isn’t going anywhere and they need to adjust strategies.
You better stay quiet you were the one who wrote Axis of evil speech for bush
During bush Iran wrote a letter to bush and agreed to stop supporting Hamas and hisbolah and others and make peace with the west but Dick Chaney tore up the letter and didn’t even show it to bush
You were the one who inflamed The conflict and US invaded Iraq
You should apologize for writing that speech for bush and clean your soul .
This comments is nothing buy regurgitate of other main media
Every word is a lie
Iran keeps attacking Israel from various directions both directly and with proxies and I agree with David that Israel is fed up and playing on Hezbollah’s current weaknesses which Israel set up in advance. Of course if Trump wins the election everything will change fairly dramatically.
But Israel never wants peace based on fair treatment of the Palestinians. Israel is not the good guy, it is a fascist state and treats arabs as sub human.
🇯🇵👷🏻♂️🫡
Why isn't the 'genocide' of the actual Indigenous peoples of places like Ontario honoured vs of those who did the genocide? The Petun, Attawandaron, Wenro, Wyandot, Erie were all holocausted to completion by those in the 'dish with one spoon'-baring the Wyandot who were displaced and given refuge in Quebec from the French. All other groups were ritualistically tortured and forcibly indoctrinated into the present tribes who survived. Is it helpful to bring up that genocide, or should we find nuance in it?