A gold Franc was exactly .2903g of fine gold so 79 was 22.934g = 0.737 troy ounces so it was worth $15.26 in 1905. That much gold is worth $951.17 today but $15.26 in 1905 dollars is only worth $375.80 today because gold has increased more in value more than other things, if that makes sense.
The U.S. twenty dollar gold coins of .900 gold weighed 1.0751 ounce with a net yield of .9675 troy ounce fine gold. Per nma.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/historic_gold_prices_1833_pres.pdf , the average price of gold in 1905 was $18.92 USD per troy ounce.
@@wlewisiii No but I can decorate my room with it. I have gold art hung up on the walls and it is quite beautiful in the light. I'd love to get more of it if the price wasn't so high at the moment.
Thanks Guys!!! The rifle of our fore-fathers here in Greece. My granddad fought with this rifle in 5 wars!! An important part of history and a beautiful rifle!!
can you look into the future? if yes great your option is amazing, if not please be quiet, its easy to say such things after they happend, or do your rally think the greeks thought there would be a war after a war and so on
Μπράβο Βαλάντη, ωραία δουλειά, μ' άρεσε η επιλογή των τραγουδιών, το φιλοβασιλικό "του αετού ο γιός" για τους Βαλκανικούς και το Βενιζελικό "της αμύνης τα παιδιά" για τον Α' ΠΠ. Κάτι τέτοια ανεβάζουν την εκτίμησή μου
As a history nerd, I'd say this show does a pretty good job of mentioning the important parts of certain events without getting lost in 3 hours of background like is so easily possible. Not that I'd mind that, I just would have to quit my job and everything else to devote my time to watching youtube to keep up.
I don't get all these sleep comments. It's a European gun, so of course the video goes up at the perfect moment for us Euros to watch it on company time.
I got a sporterized greek Mannlicher Schoenauer with a stamp 1914 on the left side of the chamber from my grandfather. It was his first huntingrifle after the WWII. The rifle is still in a very good condition and i use it a lot. A friend of mine developed a custom made leadfree bullet for the rifle. After more the hundred years in use, it is still shoots 2-3cm groups on 100 meter. I just love it.
Re: price of 75 Gold Francs in today's money. Each Gold Franc was standardised at 0.0102408248 troy ounces gold content. Since France and most of the world was on the 'Gold Standard' at that time, all you have to do is multiply by 75 times (75 Gold Francs) at a Gold spot price of around $1288.52 (14th April 2017) which gives you a modern 'value' of about USD$988.12 per rifle (Give or take half a cent) at time of manufacture. Using an online USD inflation index calculator however, results in USD$150 (About 75 Gold Francs circa 1905) in as USD$4063.62 in 2016. Inflation calculator here: www.westegg.com/inflation/ Gold price calculator based on method outlined in this article: ask.metafilter.com/275442/Historical-Value-of-French-Franc-in-comparison-to-US-dollar
Simplified: A French 10 franc gold 'Rooster' of 1899 - 1914 contained .0933 ounce fine gold, slightly more than two U.S. gold dollars (.09675). The U.S. gold one dollar coins of 1849 - 1889 had .048375 ounce fine gold and their gold content was close to 'face value' at the U.S. Government official price of $20.67 per ounce. At contemporary 'melt value', one gold French Franc would be about twenty U.S. cents in the early Twentieth Century. Seventy nine Francs would have been about $15.80 USD. The U.S. Eagle ($10 gold) had .48375 ounce fine gold. The U.S. 'Double Eagle ($20 gold) contained .9675 ounce.
my grandmother's father fought the Turks and the Bulgarians with this gun,my grandfather fought the Italians and the Germans with this gun too,it is a part of our history
I completely concur with your opinion on the Mannlicher Schoauer. I don't have a 1903 but I do have a model 1952. It's mechanically identical down to the wonderful rotary magazine...with the addition of double set triggers...and all the surfaces are jeweled. Smooth and slick do not even begin to describe it.
Thank you so much for this fine historic vid of a greate gun. The hours of work put down here, thank you so much again,and thanks to Mae too, I could not NOT notice her entusiasm about this precious gun.
Thanks so much for the excellent review. It was very detailed and shared information I have not heard before. May's comments from the range were excellent. As a Greek American I know a fair amount about the MS 1903, it was a high quality and often overlooked firearm. One thing were I think the Greeks missed a bet-rather than have an overlong rifle and a shorter carbine, they should have commonized on a 24-25 inch barrel like the Springfield 03-A3 or the German Mauser from WW2 timeframe. The long MS 1902 rifle was bulky and awkward to use in the trenches and really didn't offer any more workable range than a medium length rifle and the latter could have served the needs of a carbine. Since gun-drilling of barrels was probably THE most costly part of the manufacture process, shorter barrels make a great deal of sense from a cost perspective. As for Phil-Phil, he was a firearms genius whose ideas got way-laid by circumstances. I can't believe his concepts didn't work well in the prototypes, sounds like the tests were 'fixed' to me. One final comment-I never understood why the Greeks accepted a straight out bolt handle like that, it would have been awkward to operate and the handle would have gotten caught on everything. Certainly not a 'mad minute' capable like the British Enfield. Thoughts?
Mannlicher-Shonauer commercial rifles and carbines are finest rifles ever built so I imagine the military ones are the best in their bracket ,the 6.5 x 54 cartridge is an awesome round that very few people know about.
A great presentation, indeed. As can be inferred from many other comments, the Mannlicher-Schönauer is an important part of Greek martial history. One of my grandfathers used it for the first time to fight Bulgarians and Germans in 1918 during WWI, and he (and other relatives) used it many times after that. My only objection concerns the host’s remark about the comparison with Mannlicher-Carcano (around 31:00), which was easier to produce: it implies that, by choosing such a high-end rifle, Greece did actually forgo domestic production; but at the time Greece (and Romania, which is also mentioned) lacked the industrial capacity to produce any rifle, however complicated or not its design was. Even the Phillipides rifle would have been produced abroad (most probably at Steyr by OWG, only that, as Othais correctly observed, OWG was not interested in selling any rifle, but the Mannlicher-Schönauer specifically).
Just a small issue but, in the description you mention the book "Τα όπλα των Ηλλινων". The correct spelling should be "Τα όπλα των Ελλήνων". Thanks for the episode.
@@starman545 LOL. It's pronounced 'Tah opla ton Ellinon'. I can read it, but I don't understand too much anymore-Greek school as a child and I'm 64 now.
As for why ÖWG was able/allowed to produce carbines for the 1930 Greek contract (0:48:15), in spite of Versailles restrictions, I suspect that this was because carbines were not seen as prime military weapons, but something of a paramilitary/police weapon. Note that post-WWI Germany also fiddled around with labels as to what was carbines and what was rifles to skirt some of the restrictions imposed at Versailles.
I think it's interesting how the countries that adopted the advanced 6.5mm cartridges usually neglected to adopt spitzer bullets. I hope your ceiling is ok. The gun shop I used to work at had a low ceiling and we had a dent or two in our ceiling too.
The bottle nosed 6.5mm cartridges with extremely long bullets didn’t adapt at all well to spitzer designs. The guns need rebarrelling to remove the massive jump from the case mouth to the rifling. This ruins accuracy with spitzer bullets. The Italian Carcano has exactly this problem as well.
What an amazing channel. A true history lesson, thank you for your investing that much time into your episodes. It truly reflects. Now, I am Greek and looking everywhere to buy a 1903 Mannlincher, would you happen to know anyone who sells one? @C&Rsenal I would really like to bring back home one of these absolute beauties...
I picked up a 1903/14/27 a few years ago and love it! So I've been looking forward to this episode for a while. If only the Swedish 1896 had made it to war, since I slightly prefer that cartridge, but the 6.5MS is great to shoot!
The recap was perfect. It prepared me to keep up with you in this very interesting journey through the development of personal firearms. Good work. Cartridge fountains . . . hehehe "1000 Quatloos says the humans are untrainable and must be destroyed!" Rare wisdom . . .
Great review. My Dad brought home 4 long rifles and 1short rifle of these Greek M&S sorry to say he gave them away .Only 1 that was turn into a sorter. It was a great deer rifle.I was mad that he dident save me one.
I swear you guys always do this to me..... turn over to go to sleep...... notification of new post...... it's midnight...... it's an hour long..... I have work in the morning...... but it's.... ok I can stay up another hour....
I wish I could offer sound and specific sources/data for this, but my experience in dealing with French francs in the time-period in question is that the American dollar in 1905 was worth about five francs, give or take pennies. A gold franc was technically worth the same as any other franc, but obviously had the perk of being a gold coin and so superior for all transactions as it didn't need any provenance. In general, I think, one will find that the Franc was worth about 20 cents of the American dollar in most all applications, especially the purchasing power of gold. So in effect, your Greek rifle was about fifteen American Dollars in 1905. That seems a bit hefty for sure, since I have the impression that Uncle Sam was spending around five dollars American for a Springfield 1903. That said, I am working off memory but perhaps it is enough for you and your's to work off?
Simplified: A French 10 franc gold 'Rooster' of 1899 - 1914 contained .0933 ounce fine gold, slightly more than two U.S. gold dollars (.09675). The U.S. gold one dollar coins of 1849 - 1889 had .048375 ounce fine gold and their gold content was close to 'face value' at the U.S. Government official price of $20.67 per ounce. At contemporary 'melt value', one gold French Franc would be about twenty U.S. cents in the early Twentieth Century. Seventy nine Francs would have been about $15.80 USD. The U.S. Eagle ($10 gold) had .48375 ounce fine gold. The U.S. 'Double Eagle ($20 gold) contained .9675 ounce.
This is quite an oddball of a rifle in terms of ww1 rifles. Its pretty cool. I can see this as a great trench sniper being very effective especially with the 6.5mm with a long barrel. Like the type 38 im thinking there would be minimal if any muzzle flash.
After all 3 your Mannlicher straight-pull episodes I just had to go buy a M95/30 at the gun show. After watching these last two episodes I'm convinced that Steyr has to be my favorite manufacturer from that time period and I have to find a Mannlicher-Schönauer now. I hope they aren't ungodly expensive now but I'm sure they are, unfortunately. I don't care though, I have to collect more of these Steyr rifles, I'm hooked!
Really like your videos. It's good to see the rifles from the pre/ during smokeless powder stage as everybody knows about Mauser 98, Enfield no 4, k31 etc I do think May needs to shoot them at a slightly longer range to really see what they capabilities in accuracy are... but please keep doing what you are doing.
Hi, Great triple-Phill; of the Greek Manlickers! . Good work on the complicated Greek history and Politics. Never seen that cool rotary mag before. Thanks.
Εταιρία (Ελληνικού) Πυριτιδοποιείου και Καλυκοποιείου, με τα αρχικά ΕΕΠΚ ή ΕΠΚ. Company (Hellenic) Gunpowder factory and Cartridge factory, with the initials EEPK or EPK.
Just won a 1903-14 carbine on GB, Mae's favorite. Supposedly chambered in 7x57, I'll find out when it arrives. Bore looks pretty good. Co-incidently, my FFL buddy has a Breda 1927 sporter for sale. It's nicely done, full stock, scoped with a nice 1.5-4 Leupold, left side mounted safety. It appears to be chambered in 7x57 though is not marked as such, at least it will chamber that round.
My favorite turn bolt. What was the price of a 1903 Mauser or M95 Mannlicher.? That is an apple to apple comparison. Indeed perhaps you could tabulate a contract price standardized on the gold franc for rifles you have already showcased. As it were, for the benefit of the Youtubavian Military Rifle Commission tasked with selecting a service rifle for the Kingdom of Youtubavia.
Love them , I have the Greek 03-14-27 MANNLICHER Schonauer in 6.5 x54 and also the Model 1952 Austrian MANNLICHER Schonauer in Winchester.270 , both are in excellent condition ! PS. Thanks for the video 👍
I have my Grandfather's M1910 Take Down Model. You'd enjoy this 'site if you don't already know it: forums.nitroexpress.com/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=mannlicher
I'm a huge fan of WW1, with the military technology, the scope of the battles, and the rise and fall of world powers. I also used to play a WW1 Role Play game on Gary's Mod, and rose through the ranks to command the Central Powers forces, as well as managing the whole game server. I was always trying to get the game developers to create more authentic arms and player models. (I was so triggered when the German Empire was armed with the Kar98K, with the incorrect bolt handle and sights.) I always directed the developers to watch this video series, as well as "The Great War" and "Forgotten Weapons", to understand what was expected in the arms and uniform designs. My all time favorite is still the M95 Mannlicher, since I usually played as an Austro-Hungarian infantry officer, or the Kar88 when I played as an artillery officer. One thing I love about alot of these old rifles is the colors and grain patterns in the wooden stocks. That's one thing that will never be a discussion in 100 years when talking about AKs, ARs, etc.
The Clip is an original Hirtenberg, GR clips are more similar to Mauser Clips. In fact exactly with the Hirtenberg clips are the "dum-dum", ammo which were presented by "Carnegie Examination" in 1914, with photo etc. , about 2nd Balkan war in the summer of 1913. This is the best way to explain the character of the Greek soldiers & officers and their "human" way of fighting.
Othias, I have a Breda made 1903/14 action (which is to be made up into a deer rifle) and yes it has on the crest the marking "1903/14" but is marked "Breda 1927" on the side of the receiver. Perhaps that was on the full size rifle rather than the carbine? No, I didn't cut up a rifle to get the action - I just bought it that way.
So if one of these jams will putting Windex on it fix the issue? Joking aside, nice video. I've been looking forward to this video for a while because I picked up a Mannlicher Schönauer carbine and had no clue about any of its history. I still have no idea what the history behind my particular Mannlicher Schönauer is but at least I now know about the rifle's general history. Thank you for all your hard work, looking forward to the next episode.
I must have one of those carbines! I had a MS commercial full stock in 8x56ms, sold it after spending a ton on getting cases and dies made. But the carbine, oh yes! Bought a 1903/14 Breda 1927 Carbine last night. Seller originally said it was an 8mm, then amended it to be a 7mm. I'll find out when it gets here.
Great video! The choice of the greek songs was very good also. Just a small correction regarding the description: the book's name should be "Τα Όπλα των Ελλήνων"
Adapting any of the Mannlicher Schoenauer sporting arms of M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910 to accept non original cartridges presents the same problems, even when of the same 'caliber'. They are happiest when fed cartridges of the precise profile (including projectile size / shape) as their respective MS proprietary cartridges and when loaded properly are the smoothest feeding bolt action ever produced. Rifles and Stutzen of M1924 and later models had a modified magazine design with 'guide rings' added to facilitate greater flexibility of cartridge choice.
I bought my 1903/14 not too long ago sadly its missing the rear sight and the stock is cut up but i did only pay 367 bucks all in all for it, right now I'm on the lookout for a unmolested stock and a rear sight. Love you're show just subscribed a couple weeks ago. I love your passion for historic arms and the amount of research you do. Thank you for the great content.
@@-oiiio-3993 Haven't looked in a while at anything. But now I'll look and add stuff to my wishlist and bookmarks that way I don't forget. Thanks for the friendly help. I really appreciate it.
"Your majesty! We are broke!" "So how will we pay for guns?" "We are under international financial control, so loans, sire" "Other people's money?" "Yes your majesty" "Let's spend some cash then!" Greece, never change... : )
Let's not forget the arms merchants in Germany and Austria who pushed their own governments to lend Greece money to buy THEIR arms. Sounds like the more recent Leopard Tank deal and the Thyssen Submarine deal with Germany only a few years ago! Some things never change. Don't just blame 'the Greeks', the central European powers screwed their own taxpayers.
@@heyfitzpablum You DO realize the OP never once uttered the phrase "The Greeks" right? He said "Greece never change" - let's not harbor the naive, out of date impression that on an international stage the country is the people rather than the government - the school of realism in international politics has historically downplayed the identity of a state within the international system being the sum of its citizenry, it only takes into account the governmental institutions of the state. The wisdom of this omission aside (I think it's short-sighted), it IS the status-quo of the most-used system of understanding for international relations and as a result saying "Greece, never change" means "Government of Greece, never change". Any other nationalist fantasies are just that, fantasies. The government runs the show, elections are just to appease the peasantry, unfortunately.
I would be interested to see the results. I have not been able to get my hands on any Hornady 160 RN to load up and try. I did find 2 boxes of vintage German made sporting ammo some time back, but neither was exactly the military profile either. (Although closer, and to my experience a bit smoother than the PPU).
I wonder why I have seen 03/14 's partly blued and parts with grey paint. Sometimes the split breech, the trigger guard, even the barrel. Was the grey requested by a certain country? Can't find any reference anywhere, keeps me up nights...
2024: I currently have four (4) of the Y1903 family. One is a non-fiddled rifle, the other three are questionable they may have been carbines, but all are short versions now. I know one had been cut prior to my possession. Of the three short arms, two have had barrels so worn the bullets I tested would not seriously engage the rifling, resulting in tumbling rounds from lack of stabilization. I have had one barrel replaced and am considering the other. Hopefully, the third 'fiddled' one will be intact enough. Note, the fiddling seems to be well considered, well executed and finished. Not reminiscent of monkeys and dull spoons. A couple of them are Breda made. Over all, I find them delightful. The cartridge is quite sufficient for North American game. Whereas I would prefer a larger caliber for dangerous bears, frankly I have no reason to challenge a bear. I am delighted you approve of this action and construction.
The only complain I have ever heard about the Mannlicher-Schonauer had to do with the cartridge lethality. Greek soldiers nicknamed the 6.5 the philanthropic cartridge because sometimes would pierce through an enemy soldier without actually killing him. Otherwise most noted it was excellent when it came to ballistics and barrier penetration
The MS in 6.54 was a noted African big game cartridge. It has tremendous sectional density because it uses a rounded rather than a Spitzer projectile. It was used to take down Lions and Cape Buffalo in Africa. If you hit an enemy soldier with one of these you'll do plenty of damage to him, trust me. I'm Greek descent and I never heard the term 'philanthropic cartridge'.
Othais- was all the ammo the 156gr PPU semi spitzer softpoints? (It looked it). They hang up a bit in my 1903/14/27 as well. Supposedly a real round nose hits the feed ramp better and feeds nicer, but I have not tested that yet. Wondered if you guys had.
Great episode you guys! I don't think that it would fare that well in a InRangeTV style mud test, due to the split bridge receiver design creating a ingress point for mud and debris between the bolt body and the cocking piece. It has a bit of the same thing going when the action is open. Also front locking bolt actions, without no dust cover doesn't seem to be winning designs when it comes to mud testing.
In the icy conditions of Ukraine, the dry sand, mud, and salty deserts of Asia Minor, the rifle performed very well which led to extra procurements from Italy in 1930 (following the allied intervention in the Russian civil war, and the Greco-Turkish war of 1919-1922). In WWII the conflict with Italy was mostly fought on the mountainous and difficult terrain of Albania, and again the rifle did not fail
Same could probably be said about Mosin-Nagants and a whole bunch of other military equipment/weapons that has seen prolonged use in different conflicts around the world, due to large production numbers or otherwise easy availability cause of political support from different interest groups. I fail to see how that's related to my comment?
Another great episode. My only complaint about the series is that the episodes are too far apart; "We covered that in the last episode" means I have to go back to refresh my short-term memory. Maybe I should wait until you're finished, and binge watch... Thank you for the great content.
"Would you take it into battle in WWI?"
*Mae clutches rifle protectively*
"NO, absolutely not. Not my baby." *hisss*
Brent Keller my precious...
A gold Franc was exactly .2903g of fine gold so 79 was 22.934g = 0.737 troy ounces so it was worth $15.26 in 1905. That much gold is worth $951.17 today but $15.26 in 1905 dollars is only worth $375.80 today because gold has increased more in value more than other things, if that makes sense.
The U.S. twenty dollar gold coins of .900 gold weighed 1.0751 ounce with a net yield of .9675 troy ounce fine gold.
Per nma.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/historic_gold_prices_1833_pres.pdf , the average price of gold in 1905 was $18.92 USD per troy ounce.
Gold is especially valuable in these troubled times now.
@@Edax_Royeaux Gold is especially overpriced because people mistake scarcity for inherent value. In the end, you can't eat gold.
@@wlewisiii No but I can decorate my room with it. I have gold art hung up on the walls and it is quite beautiful in the light. I'd love to get more of it if the price wasn't so high at the moment.
@@wlewisiii You can't eat a dollar bill either.
Thanks Guys!!! The rifle of our fore-fathers here in Greece. My granddad fought with this rifle in 5 wars!! An important part of history and a beautiful rifle!!
5 wars? Your granddad was a busy man.
1st Balkan, 2nd Balkan, WW1, Greco-Turkish War, WW2... our granddads did not have a choice...
America is always open. . .
can you look into the future? if yes great your option is amazing, if not please be quiet, its easy to say such things after they happend, or do your rally think the greeks thought there would be a war after a war and so on
Μπράβο Βαλάντη, ωραία δουλειά, μ' άρεσε η επιλογή των τραγουδιών, το φιλοβασιλικό "του αετού ο γιός" για τους Βαλκανικούς και το Βενιζελικό "της αμύνης τα παιδιά" για τον Α' ΠΠ. Κάτι τέτοια ανεβάζουν την εκτίμησή μου
I'm a simple man, whenever I see '1903 Mannlicher-Schönauer' in the description I instantly press 'add to favourites'. Awesome work as always!
As a history nerd, I'd say this show does a pretty good job of mentioning the important parts of certain events without getting lost in 3 hours of background like is so easily possible. Not that I'd mind that, I just would have to quit my job and everything else to devote my time to watching youtube to keep up.
When I see you shoot The full powered rifle the why The recoil moves your shoulder move back makes my shoulder hurt. you must really love the Old guns
Hi, I did recently quit my job and still have a hard time keeping up with the C&Rsenal!
"It has everything I need from a long rifle: a short rifle!"
I don't get all these sleep comments. It's a European gun, so of course the video goes up at the perfect moment for us Euros to watch it on company time.
Boss makes a dollar,
I make a dime,
That's why I poop
on company time.
@@littlegrabbiZZ9PZA Ein mark vs. 10 pfennig, ja?
I got a sporterized greek Mannlicher Schoenauer with a stamp 1914 on the left side of the chamber from my grandfather. It was his first huntingrifle after the WWII. The rifle is still in a very good condition and i use it a lot. A friend of mine developed a custom made leadfree bullet for the rifle. After more the hundred years in use, it is still shoots 2-3cm groups on 100 meter. I just love it.
That is a Model Y1903 / 14.
@@-oiiio-3993 what ist the Y stand for?
@@AustrianJager I do not speak Greek, but thy 'Y' on 'Greek Contract' MS is for 'Model' or 'Type', as the sporting MS were M1903, M1905... .
Re: price of 75 Gold Francs in today's money. Each Gold Franc was standardised at 0.0102408248 troy ounces gold content. Since France and most of the world was on the 'Gold Standard' at that time, all you have to do is multiply by 75 times (75 Gold Francs) at a Gold spot price of around $1288.52 (14th April 2017) which gives you a modern 'value' of about USD$988.12 per rifle (Give or take half a cent) at time of manufacture.
Using an online USD inflation index calculator however, results in USD$150 (About 75 Gold Francs circa 1905) in as USD$4063.62 in 2016.
Inflation calculator here: www.westegg.com/inflation/
Gold price calculator based on method outlined in this article: ask.metafilter.com/275442/Historical-Value-of-French-Franc-in-comparison-to-US-dollar
Wasnt the United States on the gold standard at that time also tho so would that change the inflation
Uhm what about the 0.0102etc of gold context? Where is that in the equation?
Simplified:
A French 10 franc gold 'Rooster' of 1899 - 1914 contained .0933 ounce fine gold, slightly more than two U.S. gold dollars (.09675).
The U.S. gold one dollar coins of 1849 - 1889 had .048375 ounce fine gold and their gold content was close to 'face value' at the U.S. Government official price of $20.67 per ounce.
At contemporary 'melt value', one gold French Franc would be about twenty U.S. cents in the early Twentieth Century. Seventy nine Francs would have been about $15.80 USD.
The U.S. Eagle ($10 gold) had .48375 ounce fine gold.
The U.S. 'Double Eagle ($20 gold) contained .9675 ounce.
my grandmother's father fought the Turks and the Bulgarians with this gun,my grandfather fought the Italians and the Germans with this gun too,it is a part of our history
@@Steve1766 wrong
@@Steve1766 Germanics not Germans
@@Steve1766 i know,we had 88s too for anti aircraft use
@@Steve1766 US speaks english and borders with the british dominion of Canada.
So according to your logic US are british!?
Greetings from Austria
@@philp8872 lmao this was 1 year ago
I completely concur with your opinion on the Mannlicher Schoauer. I don't have a 1903 but I do have a model 1952. It's mechanically identical down to the wonderful rotary magazine...with the addition of double set triggers...and all the surfaces are jeweled. Smooth and slick do not even begin to describe it.
Yeah, you and others who've experienced them know I wasn't exaggerating with that butter reference.
@@maewinchester2030 My M1910 (9.5X57) Takedown Model agrees with you!
Thank you so much for this fine historic vid of a greate gun. The hours of work put down here, thank you so much again,and thanks to Mae too, I could not NOT notice her entusiasm about this precious gun.
No enthusiasm whatsoever.
haha, and the shooting this time, a nicer and thighter group,impressive... happy easter!
Thanks, and Happy Easter to you as well!
The episodes just get better and better thanks for all your hard work!
NP and thanks for watching!
ΦΙΛΕ ΕΚΑΝΕΣ ΘΑΥΜΑΣΙΑ ΔΟΥΛΕΙΑ...ΣΕ ΕΥΧΑΡΙΣΤΟΥΜΕ....ΝΑ ΕΙΣΑΙ ΠΑΝΤΑ ΚΑΛΑ....
stergios stergiou Ξερεις οτι δεν μιλαει Ελληνικα,ε;
Κακώς, να μάθει! :P
@@VladTevez XAXAXAXAXAX
Thanks so much for the excellent review. It was very detailed and shared information I have not heard before. May's comments from the range were excellent. As a Greek American I know a fair amount about the MS 1903, it was a high quality and often overlooked firearm. One thing were I think the Greeks missed a bet-rather than have an overlong rifle and a shorter carbine, they should have commonized on a 24-25 inch barrel like the Springfield 03-A3 or the German Mauser from WW2 timeframe. The long MS 1902 rifle was bulky and awkward to use in the trenches and really didn't offer any more workable range than a medium length rifle and the latter could have served the needs of a carbine. Since gun-drilling of barrels was probably THE most costly part of the manufacture process, shorter barrels make a great deal of sense from a cost perspective. As for Phil-Phil, he was a firearms genius whose ideas got way-laid by circumstances. I can't believe his concepts didn't work well in the prototypes, sounds like the tests were 'fixed' to me. One final comment-I never understood why the Greeks accepted a straight out bolt handle like that, it would have been awkward to operate and the handle would have gotten caught on everything. Certainly not a 'mad minute' capable like the British Enfield. Thoughts?
Mannlicher-Shonauer commercial rifles and carbines are finest rifles ever built so I imagine the military ones are the best in their bracket ,the 6.5 x 54 cartridge is an awesome round that very few people know about.
"Nein weg Joseph"!!!! You just make 'em up as you go along don't you Othias? Priceless!!!!
This one was excellant. Worth the brain freeze for sure
really nice review man , thanks for keeping it authentic . music and all
A great presentation, indeed. As can be inferred from many other comments, the Mannlicher-Schönauer is an important part of Greek martial history. One of my grandfathers used it for the first time to fight Bulgarians and Germans in 1918 during WWI, and he (and other relatives) used it many times after that. My only objection concerns the host’s remark about the comparison with Mannlicher-Carcano (around 31:00), which was easier to produce: it implies that, by choosing such a high-end rifle, Greece did actually forgo domestic production; but at the time Greece (and Romania, which is also mentioned) lacked the industrial capacity to produce any rifle, however complicated or not its design was. Even the Phillipides rifle would have been produced abroad (most probably at Steyr by OWG, only that, as Othais correctly observed, OWG was not interested in selling any rifle, but the Mannlicher-Schönauer specifically).
Just a small issue but, in the description you mention the book "Τα όπλα των Ηλλινων". The correct spelling should be "Τα όπλα των Ελλήνων". Thanks for the episode.
Got it
Its all Greek to me. xD
Athanasios Kountouras this just looks like UwU speak to me
@@starman545 LOL. It's pronounced 'Tah opla ton Ellinon'. I can read it, but I don't understand too much anymore-Greek school as a child and I'm 64 now.
@@Candrsenal misspeled ,?
Can I get "I can't believe it's not butter" with the Schönauer back ground t shirt
Zachary jordan oh that is good.
There were some out there obviously but it’s odd picturing a “Mannlicher” without the usual en bloc clip magazine. The rotary mag is so cool!
The 'En Bloc' was Ferdinand von Mannlicher's patent and was originally known / marketed as the Mannlicher Packet Loading System.
I don't know much about firearms but from watching several dozen of these videos i can conclude that carbines = always better
As for why ÖWG was able/allowed to produce carbines for the 1930 Greek contract (0:48:15), in spite of Versailles restrictions, I suspect that this was because carbines were not seen as prime military weapons, but something of a paramilitary/police weapon. Note that post-WWI Germany also fiddled around with labels as to what was carbines and what was rifles to skirt some of the restrictions imposed at Versailles.
And just when I thought, gee another gewehr88 knock-off, you guys just keep coming up with the goodies. Great shooting Mae
Drago Puskaric thanks, I try :)
I really appreciate it, thanks alot for giving us this wonderful content and giving me something to enjoy during my lunch break!
This was a great episode, great work Thanks for sharing
I think it's interesting how the countries that adopted the advanced 6.5mm cartridges usually neglected to adopt spitzer bullets.
I hope your ceiling is ok. The gun shop I used to work at had a low ceiling and we had a dent or two in our ceiling too.
The bottle nosed 6.5mm cartridges with extremely long bullets didn’t adapt at all well to spitzer designs.
The guns need rebarrelling to remove the massive jump from the case mouth to the rifling. This ruins accuracy with spitzer bullets. The Italian Carcano has exactly this problem as well.
What an amazing channel. A true history lesson, thank you for your investing that much time into your episodes. It truly reflects. Now, I am Greek and looking everywhere to buy a 1903 Mannlincher, would you happen to know anyone who sells one? @C&Rsenal I would really like to bring back home one of these absolute beauties...
You are both very fortunate to have each other!
Thank you guys for the fantastic video on the most iconic rifle of the greek army ,you are awesome
I picked up a 1903/14/27 a few years ago and love it! So I've been looking forward to this episode for a while. If only the Swedish 1896 had made it to war, since I slightly prefer that cartridge, but the 6.5MS is great to shoot!
Just became a patron; what a nice reward.
Thanks for the help!
farmerboy916 Welcome to the religion.
C&Rsenal Well, have to do something to support the best channels around with this ad shit going on
The recap was perfect. It prepared me to keep up with you in this very interesting journey through the development of personal firearms. Good work.
Cartridge fountains . . . hehehe
"1000 Quatloos says the humans are untrainable and must be destroyed!"
Rare wisdom . . .
I would agree with Mae on taking all of the Mannlicher-Shönauer rifles into WW1. They are my favorite as well.
When Mae is working that bolt on that first rifle it looks pretty rubbery definitely reminds me of a Mosin
Great review. My Dad brought home 4 long rifles and 1short rifle of these Greek M&S sorry to say he gave them away .Only 1 that was turn into a sorter. It was a great deer rifle.I was mad that he dident save me one.
Dang, that sucks.
I swear you guys always do this to me..... turn over to go to sleep...... notification of new post...... it's midnight...... it's an hour long..... I have work in the morning...... but it's.... ok I can stay up another hour....
I gotta say, I love those little War Were Declared bits. They always make me laugh.
Man, I need to buy one of these guys. I am in love.
Loved the video. You 2 look like you are having a lot of fun doing this and your research is great. :-)
I wish I could offer sound and specific sources/data for this, but my experience in dealing with French francs in the time-period in question is that the American dollar in 1905 was worth about five francs, give or take pennies. A gold franc was technically worth the same as any other franc, but obviously had the perk of being a gold coin and so superior for all transactions as it didn't need any provenance. In general, I think, one will find that the Franc was worth about 20 cents of the American dollar in most all applications, especially the purchasing power of gold. So in effect, your Greek rifle was about fifteen American Dollars in 1905.
That seems a bit hefty for sure, since I have the impression that Uncle Sam was spending around five dollars American for a Springfield 1903. That said, I am working off memory but perhaps it is enough for you and your's to work off?
Thank you, there is a whole debate brewing in another comment tree already! We'll see how it settles down.
thank you!
Simplified:
A French 10 franc gold 'Rooster' of 1899 - 1914 contained .0933 ounce fine gold, slightly more than two U.S. gold dollars (.09675).
The U.S. gold one dollar coins of 1849 - 1889 had .048375 ounce fine gold and their gold content was close to 'face value' at the U.S. Government official price of $20.67 per ounce.
At contemporary 'melt value', one gold French Franc would be about twenty U.S. cents in the early Twentieth Century. Seventy nine Francs would have been about $15.80 USD.
The U.S. Eagle ($10 gold) had .48375 ounce fine gold.
The U.S. 'Double Eagle ($20 gold) contained .9675 ounce.
Another fantastic video.Well done.
I had no idea something like this existed. Thank you for sharing.
Πολύ καλή παρουσίαση μπράβο στην εκπομπή σας,Δόξα και τιμή στα όπλα και στον Ελληνικό Στρατό
nice videos guys, i am always amazed how much effort you put in your content
Thank you!
I always look forward to new episodes
This is quite an oddball of a rifle in terms of ww1 rifles. Its pretty cool. I can see this as a great trench sniper being very effective especially with the 6.5mm with a long barrel. Like the type 38 im thinking there would be minimal if any muzzle flash.
great upload guys. thanks
Amazing job guys! Both technically and historically
"They didn't want to spend much money because they didn't have much."
Some things just don't change...
They actually have a very big army compared to their economy
Marius Dragoe Thus explaining part of their financial issues. Well at least at that time.
Well, we haven't got a choice, we're living in a very difficult neighbourhood, neighbouring an unpredictable and unstable larger neighbour
twitter.com/TRPolMemes/status/712052635533115392
Heroes fight like Greeks..... Winston Churchill
Great another gun I need to add to my list of future collection... This is getting expensive ... Love the videos keep it up
After all 3 your Mannlicher straight-pull episodes I just had to go buy a M95/30 at the gun show. After watching these last two episodes I'm convinced that Steyr has to be my favorite manufacturer from that time period and I have to find a Mannlicher-Schönauer now. I hope they aren't ungodly expensive now but I'm sure they are, unfortunately. I don't care though, I have to collect more of these Steyr rifles, I'm hooked!
I'm sorry about your wallet.
Have you found your MS?
Really like your videos. It's good to see the rifles from the pre/ during smokeless powder stage as everybody knows about Mauser 98, Enfield no 4, k31 etc I do think May needs to shoot them at a slightly longer range to really see what they capabilities in accuracy are... but please keep doing what you are doing.
Hi, Great triple-Phill; of the Greek Manlickers! . Good work on the complicated Greek history and Politics. Never seen that cool rotary mag before. Thanks.
front band and foresight reminds me of a carcano great video guys
I have this rifle and trying to find some information for ages, luckily Forgotten Weapons helped me to see this video. Thanks to you both, cheers.
Εταιρία (Ελληνικού) Πυριτιδοποιείου και Καλυκοποιείου, με τα αρχικά ΕΕΠΚ ή ΕΠΚ.
Company (Hellenic) Gunpowder factory and Cartridge factory, with the initials EEPK or EPK.
Just won a 1903-14 carbine on GB, Mae's favorite. Supposedly chambered in 7x57, I'll find out when it arrives. Bore looks pretty good.
Co-incidently, my FFL buddy has a Breda 1927 sporter for sale. It's nicely done, full stock, scoped with a nice 1.5-4 Leupold, left side mounted safety. It appears to be chambered in 7x57 though is not marked as such, at least it will chamber that round.
My favorite turn bolt. What was the price of a 1903 Mauser or M95 Mannlicher.? That is an apple to apple comparison. Indeed perhaps you could tabulate a contract price standardized on the gold franc for rifles you have already showcased. As it were, for the benefit of the Youtubavian Military Rifle Commission tasked with selecting a service rifle for the Kingdom of Youtubavia.
We prefer to be referred to as Elbonians, sir!
that rotary mag is so cool!
They perform flawlessly when fed with proper fitting cartridges.
That rotary magazine design is pretty slick.
Indeed.
They are incredibly smooth and infinitely reliable.
I have my Grandfather's M1910 (9.5X57) Take Down Model.
Those carbines have a sexy profile. Not too skinny, not too fat. Contoured well, just too straight of a grip for my tastes.
A great video you guys. Now I know what to look for when I come across these rifles.
Glad to spread the knowledge.
Love your last name. Winchester. Any relation?
Stew Knoles Nope just a name.
Mae Winchester ok. It was a shot in the dark. You and Othias keep making those great videos.
Stew Knoles Can and will do :)
I love your channel and am developing an serious affection for Mae, the funeral dirge at the beginning is just depressing.
"No language I can't ruin." I mean you did manage to mispronounce 'Lithgow' in the SMLE episode
PPK418 i pronounce it Lith-gow (like cow)
I高恩太 it's pronounced Lith-go like crow, window, narrow etc
To be fair you aussies pronounced shit weird.
@@MaxwellAerialPhotography Lithgow is Scottish…
The lithgow small arms factory is in a Australia.
Love them , I have the Greek 03-14-27 MANNLICHER Schonauer in 6.5 x54 and also the Model 1952 Austrian MANNLICHER Schonauer in Winchester.270 , both are in excellent condition ! PS. Thanks for the video 👍
I have my Grandfather's M1910 Take Down Model.
You'd enjoy this 'site if you don't already know it:
forums.nitroexpress.com/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=mannlicher
I'm a huge fan of WW1, with the military technology, the scope of the battles, and the rise and fall of world powers. I also used to play a WW1 Role Play game on Gary's Mod, and rose through the ranks to command the Central Powers forces, as well as managing the whole game server. I was always trying to get the game developers to create more authentic arms and player models. (I was so triggered when the German Empire was armed with the Kar98K, with the incorrect bolt handle and sights.) I always directed the developers to watch this video series, as well as "The Great War" and "Forgotten Weapons", to understand what was expected in the arms and uniform designs. My all time favorite is still the M95 Mannlicher, since I usually played as an Austro-Hungarian infantry officer, or the Kar88 when I played as an artillery officer. One thing I love about alot of these old rifles is the colors and grain patterns in the wooden stocks. That's one thing that will never be a discussion in 100 years when talking about AKs, ARs, etc.
This is a Great Channel!!! I Like!!!
I heard from a guy of Greek ancestry that the word "Gras" and "rifle" were interchangeable well into the 20th century esp. in the countryside..
100% true
In Turkey, every bolt-action gun is a ''Mavzer'', even this captured Lee-Enfield: ua-cam.com/video/3VQjo3MhgVw/v-deo.html
The Clip is an original Hirtenberg, GR clips are more similar to Mauser Clips. In fact exactly with the Hirtenberg clips are the "dum-dum", ammo which were presented by "Carnegie Examination" in 1914, with photo etc. , about 2nd Balkan war in the summer of 1913. This is the best way to explain the character of the Greek soldiers & officers and their "human" way of fighting.
well here's another episode to rewatch 9 times :)
Only 9?
Your right! 13!
Othias, I have a Breda made 1903/14 action (which is to be made up into a deer rifle) and yes it has on the crest the marking "1903/14" but is marked "Breda 1927" on the side of the receiver. Perhaps that was on the full size rifle rather than the carbine? No, I didn't cut up a rifle to get the action - I just bought it that way.
i was going to go to bed at a reasonable time, get up early and be productive. I guess that can wait.
So if one of these jams will putting Windex on it fix the issue?
Joking aside, nice video. I've been looking forward to this video for a while because I picked up a Mannlicher Schönauer carbine and had no clue about any of its history. I still have no idea what the history behind my particular Mannlicher Schönauer is but at least I now know about the rifle's general history. Thank you for all your hard work, looking forward to the next episode.
I just knew Mae was going to love that carbine!
Jim S It was pretty dope.
@@maewinchester2030 Try the commercial version someday (M1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer).
You'll want one.
13:24 "Perfect! Works every time."
Just got a breda 1903/14-27 for $75 in yard sale. Sadly stock cut as a sporter :,(
another 1 hour 5.40.well spent Thanks.
You crazy kids, staying up late to watch our little ole episodes.
I must have one of those carbines! I had a MS commercial full stock in 8x56ms, sold it after spending a ton on getting cases and dies made. But the carbine, oh yes!
Bought a 1903/14 Breda 1927 Carbine last night. Seller originally said it was an 8mm, then amended it to be a 7mm. I'll find out when it gets here.
Great video! The choice of the greek songs was very good also. Just a small correction regarding the description: the book's name should be "Τα Όπλα των Ελλήνων"
I like the short one also!
A club member has one of these. It's been sporterized and rechambered into a different cartridge that doesn't quite fit the rotary magazine.
Adapting any of the Mannlicher Schoenauer sporting arms of M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910 to accept non original cartridges presents the same problems, even when of the same 'caliber'.
They are happiest when fed cartridges of the precise profile (including projectile size / shape) as their respective MS proprietary cartridges and when loaded properly are the smoothest feeding bolt action ever produced.
Rifles and Stutzen of M1924 and later models had a modified magazine design with 'guide rings' added to facilitate greater flexibility of cartridge choice.
That’s a shame.
I bought my 1903/14 not too long ago sadly its missing the rear sight and the stock is cut up but i did only pay 367 bucks all in all for it, right now I'm on the lookout for a unmolested stock and a rear sight. Love you're show just subscribed a couple weeks ago. I love your passion for historic arms and the amount of research you do. Thank you for the great content.
Have you found the parts?
Ebay has been an increasingly good source for Y1903 parts in recent years.
@@-oiiio-3993 Haven't looked in a while at anything. But now I'll look and add stuff to my wishlist and bookmarks that way I don't forget. Thanks for the friendly help. I really appreciate it.
"Your majesty! We are broke!"
"So how will we pay for guns?"
"We are under international financial control, so loans, sire"
"Other people's money?"
"Yes your majesty"
"Let's spend some cash then!"
Greece, never change... : )
Rious sounds like someone needs a snickers.
Ludger Houtman Sounds like someone needs to go outside and exist
Let's not forget the arms merchants in Germany and Austria who pushed their own governments to lend Greece money to buy THEIR arms. Sounds like the more recent Leopard Tank deal and the Thyssen Submarine deal with Germany only a few years ago! Some things never change. Don't just blame 'the Greeks', the central European powers screwed their own taxpayers.
@@heyfitzpablum You DO realize the OP never once uttered the phrase "The Greeks" right? He said "Greece never change" - let's not harbor the naive, out of date impression that on an international stage the country is the people rather than the government - the school of realism in international politics has historically downplayed the identity of a state within the international system being the sum of its citizenry, it only takes into account the governmental institutions of the state.
The wisdom of this omission aside (I think it's short-sighted), it IS the status-quo of the most-used system of understanding for international relations and as a result saying "Greece, never change" means "Government of Greece, never change". Any other nationalist fantasies are just that, fantasies. The government runs the show, elections are just to appease the peasantry, unfortunately.
@@fuzzydunlop7928 You missed my point.
I would be interested to see the results. I have not been able to get my hands on any Hornady 160 RN to load up and try. I did find 2 boxes of vintage German made sporting ammo some time back, but neither was exactly the military profile either. (Although closer, and to my experience a bit smoother than the PPU).
I wonder why I have seen 03/14 's partly blued and parts with grey paint. Sometimes the split breech, the trigger guard, even the barrel. Was the grey requested by a certain country? Can't find any reference anywhere, keeps me up nights...
2024: I currently have four (4) of the Y1903 family. One is a non-fiddled rifle, the other three are questionable they may have been carbines, but all are short versions now. I know one had been cut prior to my possession. Of the three short arms, two have had barrels so worn the bullets I tested would not seriously engage the rifling, resulting in tumbling rounds from lack of stabilization. I have had one barrel replaced and am considering the other. Hopefully, the third 'fiddled' one will be intact enough.
Note, the fiddling seems to be well considered, well executed and finished. Not reminiscent of monkeys and dull spoons.
A couple of them are Breda made.
Over all, I find them delightful.
The cartridge is quite sufficient for North American game. Whereas I would prefer a larger caliber for dangerous bears, frankly I have no reason to challenge a bear.
I am delighted you approve of this action and construction.
The only complain I have ever heard about the Mannlicher-Schonauer had to do with the cartridge lethality.
Greek soldiers nicknamed the 6.5 the philanthropic cartridge because sometimes would pierce through an enemy soldier without actually killing him.
Otherwise most noted it was excellent when it came to ballistics and barrier penetration
motorsportfangr the best sniper in the German army carried a mannlicher schonauer in 6.5x54 and his own ammo
The MS in 6.54 was a noted African big game cartridge. It has tremendous sectional density because it uses a rounded rather than a Spitzer projectile. It was used to take down Lions and Cape Buffalo in Africa. If you hit an enemy soldier with one of these you'll do plenty of damage to him, trust me. I'm Greek descent and I never heard the term 'philanthropic cartridge'.
I wouldn't care to be 'pierced through' by one.
"Nein way, Joseph." Yeah, took me a moment to figure that one out.
You should have a room tour.
Othais- was all the ammo the 156gr PPU semi spitzer softpoints? (It looked it). They hang up a bit in my 1903/14/27 as well. Supposedly a real round nose hits the feed ramp better and feeds nicer, but I have not tested that yet. Wondered if you guys had.
I have some original ammo and could try the feed in the 1903. But honestly didn't have trouble outside of it.
Great episode you guys! I don't think that it would fare that well in a InRangeTV style mud test, due to the split bridge receiver design creating a ingress point for mud and debris between the bolt body and the cocking piece. It has a bit of the same thing going when the action is open. Also front locking bolt actions, without no dust cover doesn't seem to be winning designs when it comes to mud testing.
In the icy conditions of Ukraine, the dry sand, mud, and salty deserts of Asia Minor, the rifle performed very well which led to extra procurements from Italy in 1930 (following the allied intervention in the Russian civil war, and the Greco-Turkish war of 1919-1922). In WWII the conflict with Italy was mostly fought on the mountainous and difficult terrain of Albania, and again the rifle did not fail
Same could probably be said about Mosin-Nagants and a whole bunch of other military equipment/weapons that has seen prolonged use in different conflicts around the world, due to large production numbers or otherwise easy availability cause of political support from different interest groups. I fail to see how that's related to my comment?
funded. keep up the great work 👍
Thank you
That rifle is gorgeous
Othais, you mentioned that we'll see some more of those Austro-Hungarian gun requisitions at the beginning of WW1... Do I smell a 1912 Mauser?
Another great episode. My only complaint about the series is that the episodes are too far apart; "We covered that in the last episode" means I have to go back to refresh my short-term memory.
Maybe I should wait until you're finished, and binge watch...
Thank you for the great content.
"Its like butter, I can't believe it's not butter" best line
So much for getting to bed early for once