The paradox of AI art is that the only way to get anything useable out of it is to have a strong eye for discerning taste and curation, and the only people excited about using it have no discernment or taste. Total monkey's paw. I feel about it the same as I do "Plant-Based Meat" and Greta Van Fleet, reasonable simulacrum of the real thing is not sufficient reason to not simply enjoy the real thing. If I want something that tastes like meat, why wouldn't I simply eat meat? If I want something that sounds like Led Zeppelin, why wouldn't I just listen to Led Zeppelin? If I want something that looks like human-made art, why wouldn't I simply look at human-made art?
What about this: I like designing and writing ttrpg modules and material, but I’ve been inserting some AI art here n there to boost up the presentation - I’m poor af and can’t draw but the AI art can do what I need it to do - fill white space. Sure if I’m successful I’d rather have a real artist but until then 🤷♂️
@@TheBasicExpert touché Although it’s annoying to me others have essentially done this like Terraforming Mars guys used free domain but on their new Kickstarter it’s like all AI generated and no one bats an eye. Big guys raking it in while I’m still playing apologetics for a couple bucks.
You don't need art on every page where there's white space, just have a good and digestible layout that's appealing to read. RPG books do not need images to look good, and I would definitely prefer no art over AI art. There are some fairly popular RPG products that have very little to no art, a couple examples being "Classic Traveller" and "Worlds Without Number".
Technology will come for us all. Which was largely a multi-decades stretching non issue because the bulk of people stating some variation of that sentiment (with a deal with it tone), have been non blue collar workers directing it at blue collar people. The adapt/get gud or struggle attitude was taken because the people projecting it never foresaw technological progress coming for them, now that it is they say technology and technological replacement access has to be halted. So it was never about a belief standard, it was about everything from apathy to contempt for people that were an occupational “other” angry that their occupational meaning was being taken by technology. Given that scenario, I have no sympathy for the people now being faced with living what they perpetuated : Reap what you sow
9:14 Real. For me AI art or even AI DMs is more about the “eye” curation in where through the medium of AI- you can find artistic merit through the opposed (the negation of the negation)
I got into playing RPGs a couple years ago for no one wanted to back in 1981 in my rural town. I had bx in 1981 and printed out the PDF couple years ago. I love the black and white art and thought is that a woodcut print? I bought a $5 box of scrap hardwood and some knives and got busy. It is a process maybe more then drawing or painting. I'm pretty rustic or folky as my instructor said (took a college course... Highly recommended for some a the processes are better to learn first hand). Anyway I wholeheartedly believe there will be a backlash against ai art for as friend told me about my stuff... The art is in the imperfections. I don't agree but the human soul is located there.
I love using AI art to create NPC concepts for my games. I'm a writer, have never really been that good at drawing, so it's a handy thing in that regard. They're far from perfect, but good enough to get the point across. Maybe if I devoted myself to learning proper AI training, I could do stuff that's a lot better, but I don't really have much use for that kind of thing. AI generation is a tool, like anything else, so it just depends on how you use it. You have to know how to use it well for the art to be any good at all, and most people these days don't know how to do that; they simply want fast results. There's a glut of trash out there as it is right now. Probably what's going to happen is that when the new wears off and it becomes old hat, there will be a lot less of the garbage out there to sort through. It's the new gadget right now, and when people finally realize that it's just not as good as human-created art, maybe things will settle down and it will become just another tool in the artist's toolbox instead of trying to be the primary means of production as it seems to be right now.
A problem which should not be underestimated. If industrial AI poisons our collective tastes, reduces it to a certain standart (like McDonalds did for food), it will drag human culture down as a whole. Its good to have the tech, but bad if short-sighted CEO`s manipulating this into "the future" of most (all ?) visual art.
I don't really have a principled stance against 'AI' 'art' but I do have a problem when people pretend that it's intelligent(which it isn't) and that it's creations are art(which they aren't)
@@TheBasicExpert more than fair. Some people really became evangelicals about something they don't understand,and don't see the flaws of is fucking bizarre. Makes Fallouts TechnoCults seem more realistic by the day
Been really liking the Warlock!-books from Fire Ruby Design. Their last books was suddenly with AI art and it looks really lackluster. I didn't realize it at purchase. Up until that point the art in the books had been top notch imo. Anyway, because of this change I'll stop buying any more books from this publisher.
It reminds me of the arguments against digital tools in the 90s when people pointed out terrible photoshops. I think there will eventually be legitimate uses for AI and eventually it will become normalized in some way shape or form. 80s me would never have guessed so much art would be done with a tablet and digital pen tools. But here we are.
@@TheBasicExpert I’m a lot older than you I’m guessing but we had gronards in the art space that called digital art cheating, ugly, and dangerous for real artists. Or 2d vs 3d animation in the same respect. And they were right in some respects early on. But eventually the tools became refined and normalized and accepted. I can see AI being very useful for iterations, concept art, references, etc. as the ai gets better it becomes more legitimate as a tool. I don’t think it replaces artists, but I think it will be used by legitimate artists to cut costs of bloated Hollywood or video game spaces for sure and other places as well. You can already see Hasbro trying to sneak it in to see what they can get by with. I don’t disagree with you as it’s used right now, but I think it will change and evolve and become a legitimate weapon in the artist arsenal. I think of iterative math based digital effects in movies, or digital scans for 3d models in movies vs matte paintings and scale model miniatures of the past. Early on that stuff sucks and to some extent still does. Good cg effects go unnoticed completely, bad cg effects can completely pull you out of a movie. But everyone uses it these days. I just think eventually it’ll be normalized and legitimized. I can only see a Star Trek style holodeck becoming real through AI. Likely sculpted with an artist at the helm, but using AI tools. Take it or leave it man, I love your work not trying to piss you off, just trying to give my thoughts on the topic.
I wonder about the impact it's going to have on the non-art world. How long before publishers are like, "I need some high-quality artwork for the cover of this book. I can give you $50, but I need it by Thursday."
Unfortunetly corporate bottom lines,ease of use and Ai's learning ability will ensure AI art will only get better and more widespread.Also the more artists that produce art will only fuel AI's ability to learn from great artists. As long as artists demand the prices they do in the western part of the world the more AI will be seen as a cheaper alternative. Personally I can appretiate both sides of the argument and as much as it pains me to say it I am pretty sure AI will win out in the end and not just with art unless we think ahead and put a stop to it before it is too late.
I disagree. As I stated in the video, AI art will probably never get beyond the uncanny valley and it will always require a human touch. We don't know how human intelligence works. We don't fully understand human creativity. You can't make an algorithm or computer do it if you do not understand yourself. I think it will find a purpose in big companies. That's all the better for me with handcrafted stuff.
@@TheBasicExpert Time will tell and never underestimate the greed and lust for power of the mega corps.What better way to control the masses than by stiffling creativity.
I was looking for your old Liber Art site where you posted some of your art under Creative Commons and saw that it has been taken down. I have most of that art still downloaded, is there a reason you took it down?
Good thing artists are still worth paying for so people don't have hideous same-looking art in all their books. It saddens me that so many have such poor taste they are willing to defend and consume garbage.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions. Not that I know anything about art but still good to have all perspectives. But for sure 100% I don’t want AI art in the RPGs I buy.
The problem with AI bros is they are trying to skip all the work, and straight to the ideas in their heads. But art is more than just an idea, it's also a craft. Not quite the same, but it kind of reminds me of how story-gamers will just ignore rules in RPGs; in other words, AI bros are ignoring the rules/fundamentals of art, and or the very things that make art attractive. When I look at art that I love, I don't just think "Hmm, that's a cool idea." I also think "Woah, I love how these brush strokes make a textured and detailed look. And the composition and scale makes one feel so small and lonely."
When the AI art craze was first starting, and people were claiming it was stealing from artists, I didn't really care about that as much. My problem was "People" equalizing AI art to human art. These people are delusional and have no taste.
JBGE: just barely good enough Commodity over culture Utilitarian cold pragmatism will become the norm... but that will make original art more like the diamonds in the rough.
I was wondering what your opinion is of the Ai infiltrating photoshop now? Currently in the process of starting my own TTRPG company, and it's been difficult working with limited resources and cost of art. Can I email you? I'd really like some advice from someone who has been through it.
I Agree, but if whitehack is anything to go by, you absolutely limit your market wheras Bigby's Giants still sells. People will vote with their money in the coming days
I really don’t understand why people say that AI learning how to draw from other artists is unethical when people have been learning how to paint/draw from other artists for hundreds of years. Does that mean cave men are the only ethical artists? What does annoy Me about AI Art is the people who make brain dead “movie posters.” The other day there was a post claiming Jeff Hardy was going to be the joker in the next “The Batman Film.” Including AI Art of Jeff Hardy as the joker. You would not believe the amount of smooth brains praising the casting as legitimate-although they were likely bots.
AI art is a tool. Anyone can use a ball peened hammer to nail a mason screw into a wood deck, but they won't be a builder, same with AI image generation. You must know art to make art in AI. So most calling themselves AI artists are just fledgling promptsmiths at best. A proper AI artist would train their own models, use 3D blockouts, use correct prompts, 101 generations, and photobash with editing before the final generation. So yeah, if someone calls themselves an AI artist, most likely they are not.
I have gotten so much enjoyment using a crappy $45 tablet to draw countless creatures and heroes to surprise my players with over the past decade. As far as I can tell AI hasn't been able to replicate anything that would elicit those same feelings of enjoyment and gratitude my players have when they all get funky little hand-drawn VTT tokens of their dudes.
The paradox of AI art is that the only way to get anything useable out of it is to have a strong eye for discerning taste and curation, and the only people excited about using it have no discernment or taste. Total monkey's paw.
I feel about it the same as I do "Plant-Based Meat" and Greta Van Fleet, reasonable simulacrum of the real thing is not sufficient reason to not simply enjoy the real thing. If I want something that tastes like meat, why wouldn't I simply eat meat? If I want something that sounds like Led Zeppelin, why wouldn't I just listen to Led Zeppelin? If I want something that looks like human-made art, why wouldn't I simply look at human-made art?
This is an astute observation. That eye is artistic talent and many with that eye don't want to use AI.
Fully agreed, and so stoked to get Macuahuitl--got my group hyped up to play it, but we've been waiting for the physical book to come in.
Still working in importing it.
He lives!
What about this:
I like designing and writing ttrpg modules and material, but I’ve been inserting some AI art here n there to boost up the presentation - I’m poor af and can’t draw but the AI art can do what I need it to do - fill white space.
Sure if I’m successful I’d rather have a real artist but until then 🤷♂️
I mean you can also use public domain or even art packs. There are some absolutely amazing public domain works out there.
You can get art packs on DTRPG at a very affordable price. There is a lot of great public domain art too.
@@TheBasicExpert touché
Although it’s annoying to me others have essentially done this like Terraforming Mars guys used free domain but on their new Kickstarter it’s like all AI generated and no one bats an eye. Big guys raking it in while I’m still playing apologetics for a couple bucks.
You don't need art on every page where there's white space, just have a good and digestible layout that's appealing to read. RPG books do not need images to look good, and I would definitely prefer no art over AI art.
There are some fairly popular RPG products that have very little to no art, a couple examples being "Classic Traveller" and "Worlds Without Number".
Always good stuff! I’ve been missing your videos!
Technology will come for us all. Which was largely a multi-decades stretching non issue because the bulk of people stating some variation of that sentiment (with a deal with it tone), have been non blue collar workers directing it at blue collar people.
The adapt/get gud or struggle attitude was taken because the people projecting it never foresaw technological progress coming for them, now that it is they say technology and technological replacement access has to be halted.
So it was never about a belief standard, it was about everything from apathy to contempt for people that were an occupational “other” angry that their occupational meaning was being taken by technology.
Given that scenario, I have no sympathy for the people now being faced with living what they perpetuated : Reap what you sow
9:14 Real. For me AI art or even AI DMs is more about the “eye” curation in where through the medium of AI- you can find artistic merit through the opposed (the negation of the negation)
Agreed... Once we lose creativity...then what?
I don't want to sound old but Ai art and writing is yes quick but soulless...in my opinion.
I got into playing RPGs a couple years ago for no one wanted to back in 1981 in my rural town. I had bx in 1981 and printed out the PDF couple years ago. I love the black and white art and thought is that a woodcut print? I bought a $5 box of scrap hardwood and some knives and got busy. It is a process maybe more then drawing or painting. I'm pretty rustic or folky as my instructor said (took a college course... Highly recommended for some a the processes are better to learn first hand). Anyway I wholeheartedly believe there will be a backlash against ai art for as friend told me about my stuff... The art is in the imperfections. I don't agree but the human soul is located there.
I love using AI art to create NPC concepts for my games. I'm a writer, have never really been that good at drawing, so it's a handy thing in that regard. They're far from perfect, but good enough to get the point across. Maybe if I devoted myself to learning proper AI training, I could do stuff that's a lot better, but I don't really have much use for that kind of thing.
AI generation is a tool, like anything else, so it just depends on how you use it. You have to know how to use it well for the art to be any good at all, and most people these days don't know how to do that; they simply want fast results. There's a glut of trash out there as it is right now. Probably what's going to happen is that when the new wears off and it becomes old hat, there will be a lot less of the garbage out there to sort through. It's the new gadget right now, and when people finally realize that it's just not as good as human-created art, maybe things will settle down and it will become just another tool in the artist's toolbox instead of trying to be the primary means of production as it seems to be right now.
I personally hope it never becomes a wide spread too. I've already decided to never use it.
A problem which should not be underestimated. If industrial AI poisons our collective tastes, reduces it to a certain standart (like McDonalds did for food), it will drag human culture down as a whole. Its good to have the tech, but bad if short-sighted CEO`s manipulating this into "the future" of most (all ?) visual art.
I don't really have a principled stance against 'AI' 'art' but I do have a problem when people pretend that it's intelligent(which it isn't) and that it's creations are art(which they aren't)
This is where I have been for a long while. I've only come to hate more as I have encountered more people who profess these things.
@@TheBasicExpert more than fair. Some people really became evangelicals about something they don't understand,and don't see the flaws of is fucking bizarre. Makes Fallouts TechnoCults seem more realistic by the day
Ive seen speed painters do some amazing stuff, are they as fast as AI?, no, but still pretty fast.
Been really liking the Warlock!-books from Fire Ruby Design. Their last books was suddenly with AI art and it looks really lackluster. I didn't realize it at purchase. Up until that point the art in the books had been top notch imo. Anyway, because of this change I'll stop buying any more books from this publisher.
It reminds me of the arguments against digital tools in the 90s when people pointed out terrible photoshops. I think there will eventually be legitimate uses for AI and eventually it will become normalized in some way shape or form. 80s me would never have guessed so much art would be done with a tablet and digital pen tools. But here we are.
Typing prompts is like Photoshop?
@@TheBasicExpert I’m a lot older than you I’m guessing but we had gronards in the art space that called digital art cheating, ugly, and dangerous for real artists. Or 2d vs 3d animation in the same respect. And they were right in some respects early on. But eventually the tools became refined and normalized and accepted. I can see AI being very useful for iterations, concept art, references, etc. as the ai gets better it becomes more legitimate as a tool. I don’t think it replaces artists, but I think it will be used by legitimate artists to cut costs of bloated Hollywood or video game spaces for sure and other places as well. You can already see Hasbro trying to sneak it in to see what they can get by with. I don’t disagree with you as it’s used right now, but I think it will change and evolve and become a legitimate weapon in the artist arsenal. I think of iterative math based digital effects in movies, or digital scans for 3d models in movies vs matte paintings and scale model miniatures of the past. Early on that stuff sucks and to some extent still does. Good cg effects go unnoticed completely, bad cg effects can completely pull you out of a movie. But everyone uses it these days. I just think eventually it’ll be normalized and legitimized. I can only see a Star Trek style holodeck becoming real through AI. Likely sculpted with an artist at the helm, but using AI tools. Take it or leave it man, I love your work not trying to piss you off, just trying to give my thoughts on the topic.
@@radelc I don't really care about age. There is a difference between typing text and actually doing art.
Exactly. If you've been around for a while, this modern complaint sounds very familiar.
@@DZ-X3 Typing prompts is not the same as using photoshop in the 90s. This is like basic apples and oranges stuff guys.
I wonder about the impact it's going to have on the non-art world.
How long before publishers are like, "I need some high-quality artwork for the cover of this book. I can give you $50, but I need it by Thursday."
Killer intro! Great content!
Unfortunetly corporate bottom lines,ease of use and Ai's learning ability will ensure AI art will only get better and more widespread.Also the more artists that produce art will only fuel AI's ability to learn from great artists.
As long as artists demand the prices they do in the western part of the world the more AI will be seen as a cheaper alternative.
Personally I can appretiate both sides of the argument and as much as it pains me to say it I am pretty sure AI will win out in the end and not just with art unless we think ahead and put a stop to it before it is too late.
I disagree. As I stated in the video, AI art will probably never get beyond the uncanny valley and it will always require a human touch. We don't know how human intelligence works. We don't fully understand human creativity. You can't make an algorithm or computer do it if you do not understand yourself.
I think it will find a purpose in big companies. That's all the better for me with handcrafted stuff.
@@TheBasicExpert Time will tell and never underestimate the greed and lust for power of the mega corps.What better way to control the masses than by stiffling creativity.
I was looking for your old Liber Art site where you posted some of your art under Creative Commons and saw that it has been taken down. I have most of that art still downloaded, is there a reason you took it down?
If artists aren't worth paying because AI is more convenient, the same will be true for you & all your books.
Good thing artists are still worth paying for so people don't have hideous same-looking art in all their books.
It saddens me that so many have such poor taste they are willing to defend and consume garbage.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions. Not that I know anything about art but still good to have all perspectives. But for sure 100% I don’t want AI art in the RPGs I buy.
The problem with AI bros is they are trying to skip all the work, and straight to the ideas in their heads. But art is more than just an idea, it's also a craft. Not quite the same, but it kind of reminds me of how story-gamers will just ignore rules in RPGs; in other words, AI bros are ignoring the rules/fundamentals of art, and or the very things that make art attractive.
When I look at art that I love, I don't just think "Hmm, that's a cool idea." I also think "Woah, I love how these brush strokes make a textured and detailed look. And the composition and scale makes one feel so small and lonely."
When the AI art craze was first starting, and people were claiming it was stealing from artists, I didn't really care about that as much.
My problem was "People" equalizing AI art to human art. These people are delusional and have no taste.
I am in this camp as well. I was indifferent. Now I hate it because of these fanatics.
JBGE: just barely good enough
Commodity over culture
Utilitarian cold pragmatism will become the norm... but that will make original art more like the diamonds in the rough.
I hope it makes real original art more valuable and noticeable.
I was wondering what your opinion is of the Ai infiltrating photoshop now? Currently in the process of starting my own TTRPG company, and it's been difficult working with limited resources and cost of art. Can I email you? I'd really like some advice from someone who has been through it.
Yeah you can shoot me an email from my website:
thebasicexpert.com/pages/contact
Hey off topic question,where can i grab a printed copy of Cow punchers? I do not buy pdfs and dont have a printer.
I have it on DTRPG and Lulu. Find a way to DM and I'll hook you up.
@@TheBasicExpertI tried dm ing you but the im not a robot thing is impossible, can you direct me somewhere else?
are you on discord? My user name is thebasicexpert on there.
@@TheBasicExpert request sent on Discord
I would rather an RPG book have no art than AI art.
Agreed. AI art is Garbage In, Garbage Out.
I Agree, but if whitehack is anything to go by, you absolutely limit your market wheras Bigby's Giants still sells.
People will vote with their money in the coming days
I really don’t understand why people say that AI learning how to draw from other artists is unethical when people have been learning how to paint/draw from other artists for hundreds of years.
Does that mean cave men are the only ethical artists?
What does annoy Me about AI Art is the people who make brain dead “movie posters.” The other day there was a post claiming Jeff Hardy was going to be the joker in the next “The Batman Film.” Including AI Art of Jeff Hardy as the joker. You would not believe the amount of smooth brains praising the casting as legitimate-although they were likely bots.
I never made this argument.
@@TheBasicExpertpeople sure do enjoy shadow boxing ideas in their own head
AI art is a tool. Anyone can use a ball peened hammer to nail a mason screw into a wood deck, but they won't be a builder, same with AI image generation. You must know art to make art in AI. So most calling themselves AI artists are just fledgling promptsmiths at best. A proper AI artist would train their own models, use 3D blockouts, use correct prompts, 101 generations, and photobash with editing before the final generation. So yeah, if someone calls themselves an AI artist, most likely they are not.
I have gotten so much enjoyment using a crappy $45 tablet to draw countless creatures and heroes to surprise my players with over the past decade. As far as I can tell AI hasn't been able to replicate anything that would elicit those same feelings of enjoyment and gratitude my players have when they all get funky little hand-drawn VTT tokens of their dudes.
Human-assisted Art, lol.