Are Frodo and Sam from Lord of the Rings Gay?
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2021
- This is a response to a piece by Molly Ostertag over at Polygon making the case that Frodo and Sam are gay. I think she does as good a job as anyone could, but I remain unconvinced.
Molly Ostertag’s piece at Polygon is here: www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-r...
My video on the “Gondor in Transition” paper is here: • Response to "Gondor in...
My video on authorial intent: • Interpreting Tolkien: ...
And here’s a video I did on that unpublished epilogue: • The Unpublished Epilog...
Other Links:
Rumble at rumble.com/c/c-355195
Odysee: odysee.com/@TolkienLore:f
Twitter: / jrrtlore
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The reference to being moved by the scene with Frodo asleep on Sam's breast is from Letter 96 and is more directly discussing the tragedy of the near repentance of Gollum when he returns to this scene.
gollum doesnt repent
@@PeterParker-ff7ub Quote: NEAR repentance
@@PeterParker-ff7ub that is to my memory the only time gollum is described as an elderly hobbit in a moment of tenderness and not a creature, ape like, or animal.
It is a tender scene. It reminds Gollum of the life he had and the friend he had whom he killed. He longs for friendship and love. Gollum is incapable of that at this time, though. He reverts back to his murderous self as soon with a few harsh words. It is very sad.
I find it a widespread failing of modern society that we can't conceive the notion of a pair of people, same sex or otherwise, having a close, emotionally intimate relationship that doesn't involve sexuality. Maybe it's a personal sore spot; I'm a heterosexual man who has had committed relationships with women, but I've also had a lot of very close friendships with women that never did not and never would involve sexual activity; yet never once have I been spared constant suggestions of "so... you guys? You gonna...? Why don't you...?" It's immature on many levels and insulting to the people involved. Never once do Sam and Frodo engage in any overt physically erotic exchange. Physically intimate? Yes. But physical intimacy is not essentially sexual. Are Legolas and Gimli definitely sexual partners because a "great love" grew between them? Are we to assume that Gimli's love for Gdladriel is due to a desire for sexual satisfaction and not a respectful admiration for her beauty, kindness, wisdom, and power?
Furthermore Sam does tell Rose and later Frodo thst the only reason he had never "spoken" before was due to his duty to Frodo, which was one of duty and service, despite Rose's insinuation that it was obvious between them for a very long time. Is Aragorn gay because ge kissed Boromir's brow as he died?
People love to talk about "spectrums" these days; why isnt this applied in a case like this? Is there no middle ground between "just friends" and "sexual partners?" No "profound admiration" or "lifelong devotion" that doesn't involve carnal desires? It's very simplistic, and in some cases agenda driven, and above all else has nothing to do with the story being told.
Every sentence ever written is agenda driven, but I get your overall point and I agree.
Perhaps I'd be better to say agenda blinded.
This
Amen Brother! :D
I'm a bisexual man who has been married to a woman for years, and I completely agree. I can see people misunderstanding the way that male friendships used to be, and in lucky cases are now, but it's pretty clear with the time period and heavy analysis of this work over decades that some homoromantic narrative or even subtext would have been found if it existed.
"My Sam Gamgee is indeed a reflexion of the English soldier, of the privates and batmen I knew in the 1914 war, and recognised as so far superior to myself." J.R.R Tolkien
Tolkien valued the enlisted men under his command in the Lancashire Fusiliers during WWI. I don't understand how this can be interpreted as gay.
Because most of these people can’t even imagine what war is actually like and the horrors you can see, and therefore the friendship and connections that can be made in war.
@@jl453k2 Or even friendship outside of war.
One of the soldiers whom Tolkien spent the war with - who died during it - was the poet Geoffrey Bache Smith, whose poems are widely read as deeply homoerotic and were collected for publishing by Tolkien himself to honor his dead gay friend.
I did always view Sam and Frodo as more brothers rather than lovers. I never did get the vibe that they held romantic feelings for each other.
How often do you kiss your brother? Stroke his hand? Ride barebacked naked?
I
From the start I read it as the commander and his executive officer. Frodo has the burden of command and has an XO in the form of Sam who is loyal to the death and willing to go through hell for his boss to accomplish the mission
@kristopherprime9837 I’m not sure your take on Tolkien is entirely accurate. Tolkien had friends who lived as homosexuals, the article his is referring to notes Tolkien’s overt friendship with a writer who was a lesbian. Tolkien (for his time) had more progressive ideas than many would give him credit for (he defended the Jews to Nazis, was against apartheid in SA and was famously environmentally conscious). None of that means Sam and Frodo are gay, I don’t interpret them as gay and Tolkien didn’t write them as such, but I would push back against the notion Tolkien disliked gay people
People that are financially comfortable much like the Baggins are used to the finer things. Clothes and whatnot. And Queer means strange or odd in the text, clearly.
Sam fell in love and gets married to Rosie... not sure if she read that part.
Keep on mind he was in love with and desired to marry her before the adventure began. Don't you think Bllbo knew that when he gave Sam a bag of gold "in case you ever think of getting married?"
Enjoyed this one. Instead of screeching about being woke or about Tolkien being a Catholic, you talk about how poor her arguments actually are when you really read the article. Quote mining is rampant when people just want their view to be the accepted view. That was what jumped out to me quickly when reading what she was saying. Also, another failure to understand that even a kiss, a holding of hands, or "love", does not mean romantic love. Strange how this needs to keep being repeated...
Good video!
Exactly, Tolkien unlike many in our current age, would have been pretty familiar with the four types of love that the Greeks recognized.
But still, Tolkiens catholic views are enough to dismiss this nonsense. It’s downright insulting to insinuante that Tolkien would put in something that goes against his beliefs in a ”positive” light.
@@christianbjorck816 I think TolkienLore covers this well in the video. It's not enough to just say someone is this or that and this means they view something this way or that. Even though he's a Catholic, I've no idea what Tolkien would have thought about certain modern concerns. There are plenty of Catholics who are at opposites of each other when it comes to certain things. Id rather just look at the claim itself and see if it has merit rather than outright dismiss it.
@The Red Book No I do think it’s quite sufficient. Catholics are among the few christians that have a rather firm belif. Doesn’t change much over time from what I have gathered and they are certainly against homosexuality and other such leanings. Therefore it would have no place in a catholic work, which he Said on numerous times that Lord of the Rings, and all the writings of Arda, was.
@@christianbjorck816 There are many many Catholics, some devout, some saying they are devout, with many different opinions on things. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I agree with all these views, I'm basically saying I don't like outright dismissing something without taking a look. I'm sure Tolkien would have at least read what these people are saying, and respected that they wanted to write about his work.
I think it's people projecting because they have trouble understanding a healthy male friendship, and that we have vastly different social dynamics now a days in contrast with Tolkien's perspective on honor and comradery. However gay use to mean happy and gaelic, so in a way I guess they are gay.
Agreed
Absolutely
Exactly.
Correct
Well said
An observation: people in Tolkien's Europe had more daily face-to-face interactions with other people. They also came from much larger families, where siblings often lived in close quarters, and depending on how wealthy you were, slept in the same bed. This meant that public displays of affection were more commonplace (hugging, a pat on the back, walking down the street with arms locked with your platonic girlfriends, etc).
In our modern society, where we spend all day looking at impersonal tv's, computer monitors and cellphones, iwith a higher number of only children, and helicopter parents, people are no longer socialized in this way, which is why so many people are quick to complain about "harassment" and "assault" if someone they don't know gives them a surprise hug. The assumption is that physical contact is reserved only for deeper emotional and/or sexual intimacy. I think this author is seeing PDAs often made by brothers (as well as soldiers with emotional bonds forged in war), as being sexual. What may seem overly familiar in 2021, was not in 1921.
Very well written. It is baffling how people don't consider this, in a time where they should be well aware of how books always reflect the societal norms of the time and culture they were written in. I happend to watch Tolkien Lore's video on "Death of the Author vs authorial intent" right beforehand and your comment convinced me how shortsighted our "modern" perspective can be and misinterpret an author. Thank you.
"Do we really think Frodo had a homoromantic relationship with his cousins, too?"
*Silmarillion fandom has entered the chat*
why not , elves merry their cousins all the time.
Well, yeah, when they’re a few dozen generations removed 😂
@@christianefiorito6684 But not their cousins of the same gender. Even among humans that wasn't a thing until about five minutes ago.
For me the strongest arguement would be that after surviving Mount Doom, almost the first thing Sam thinks about is Rosy. Usually after barely avoiding death we think about being with those we love the most. (Unless he was in love with strawberries 🤣) If they were gay he would be thinking about running away with Frodo.
Could Frodo and Sam's brotherly relationship be modeled in part after that of David and Jonathan in the Bible? I think it may be considering Tolkien's Christian faith.
I absolutely agree, but i have to let you know that that's probably not going to change anyone's mind: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_Jonathan#Homoeroticism
@@jonathonmeinema2147 Oh yeah; I heard about that one growing up. I always thought it was silly.
I think it's modeled after all pre-postmodern relationships between men. It's only in the last half century that certain parties are determined to interpret them as homosexual.
I think chalking up everything to Tolkien's faith, although often is a factor, can be misguided.
@@suppiluiiuma5769 What was silly?
David and Jonathan do not quite fit the bill. Frodo is clearly Sam's superior in social status, whereas in that Biblical example, Jonathan is the king's son and heir while David is only a courtier, though both are aware of the fact that David is destined to be king.
No. The fact that this theory is so prominent is a sign of the times in which we live. Male friendships are not what they used to be. Friendship and love are undervalued and misunderstood. Honour and loyalty have fallen out of favour; almost no one understands them anymore.
100%
Agreed and I say honour and loyalty among men as a mainstay of social order has been systematically disfavored and deprogrammed by way of feminist influence in media and educational curriculum.
Plenty of us do. We’re just not given a voice in the public square anymore. And this is because social conservatism has been put on the back burner in Western society for the past 100 years, with the process accelerated the past 50 or so. The big lie is that individualism (that is, a radical focus on the self) and not the family is the key unit the founders intended to be the focus of the United States. And this false ethos has been adopted for all of Western Europe. The actual truth is that the FAMILY, and NOT the individual, is the engine that makes all of “this” around us function. Everyone is a father, mother, brother, sister, cousin, etc. of somebody else. And the sooner we recognize again our natural roles within society based off this framework, the sooner peace and true social cohesion can be re-established.
And the pendulum is swinging back the other way, finally. People are seeing and experiencing what a western society apart from a Christian moral framework looks like and they are rejecting it. Just as Sauron’s nihilistic evil was always doomed to implode in upon itself, those who hate God and his followers are utterly incapable of building anything beautiful, virtuous, or true.
@@johnleclerc8806 I think it’s because those close friendships aren’t important to are physical survival like they used to be. That’s where people went when thugs and bandits or invaders came to your villages, you went to your male friends and you got weapons and fought them off or died trying. You had to be loyal to these people or they wouldn’t help you when things got rough.
Edit: just wanted to say, I say physical because they are definitely important for our mental well-being.
I think homophobia and Men fearing being perceived as gay has made male relationships/ friendships very cold over time, to the point that perhaps a very healthy male friendship like that of Sam and Frodo appears gay to us because they don't sit five feet apart in the hot tub, get it? Lol
You can see it if you squint. I've never seen them as homosexual, and honestly I don't care if people believe that, what I *do* care about, is people who don't acknowledge that Sam loves and marries Rosie! That makes me want to pull my hair out. He has like, 13 kids with her if I'm not mistaken (it's 6 am and I'm too tired to look it up, so I'm sorry for not getting it right), and if he *didn't* love her, you think they'd have so many kids? One kid, okay maybe a "beard." Two, slim chance. Anything higher than 4, and I'm convinced the dude is hetero. Please acknowledge Rosie and Sam's marriage.. ❤
I see them as brothers that strong bond friendship
It seems to me the conclusion that Sam and Frodo are gay is the direct result of having never witnessed a healthy, close relationship between two male friends, very similar to brothers.
@@dispatch-indirect9206
Exactly
Merry kisses the hand a couple times of Theoden and developed a loving devotion to him in a short amount of time. I think this is a similar dynamic to Sam & Frodo’s relationship
Sam only truly loves PO-TA-TOES !!!
Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew!
Nonsense. Samwise is a good hobbit, so his true love is a second breakfast. 😉
@@tominiowa2513 I don't think he knows about that one Pip.
Sam actually does have sex with mashed potatoes. It’s in the secret version of LotR.
Hi! Thank you so much for making this video. I came across the Polygon article yesterday, and it bothered me for many reasons. Molly talked about the author's intent, but she was really pushing her own agenda, "connecting dots" that were not set out as breadcrumbs to be analyzed. Often, she just assumes things, like that a Catholic person either hates gay people and their lifestyle or loves them both. She takes a quote that Tolkien made about chivalric love and assumes that anytime chivalry is seen, it must be tied to romance. She misunderstands Sam's relationship to Frodo as his servant, which explains why he shyly blushes as he holds his master's hand and why he cares for him with such devotion. She doesn't leave room for a culture that share physical affection more commonly, with kisses, hugs, and resting against one another.
In my opinion, the arguments for Sam and Frodo's friendship being romantic are, at best, demonstrating a shallow understanding of a person's ability to love. We live in a hypersexualized society, where the most important part of people's lives and the most important relationships are considered to be the romantic ones. Sam and Frodo are definitely not romantic partners, but neither are they simply "best friends," at least not in the modern way of understanding it. Their connection is a very deep one, forged through hardship and lasting long afterwards. Yes, it seems that this is the most important relationship for Sam, but that does not make it sexual. People are capable of loving friends more than lovers, but it's just not as common. Our sexual desire is not the root of love, or even the highest form of love, it is just one expression of it. Part of the misunderstanding is cultural (since many modern people-especially Americans-do not have such expressive friendships, particularly between men), but part of it is that their relationship is unique. There is no sexual attraction, but there is a genuine love and bond that they share with no one else. It would be wise to let that be without trying to make something sexual out of it. Let's just enjoy this unique take on a brotherly bond and leave it at that.
All of this 👏👏👏
I went around and around with someone on this topic once, and his ultimate reasoning for Frodo and Sam being gay was that "everyone has homosexual feelings for their same sex friends." Uh. No. My best friend in highschool was lesbian, and I am a female. I love her dearly, but in a strictly friend zone manner. Never once have I had romantic feelings for her or a sexual attraction to her. (Nor either for any other woman.) He was speechless that homosexuality isn't a default setting for everyone. I can't imagine even wanting kind of relationship with another woman. I know how difficult I am. There's no way I would be able to tolerate another me.
"Lmao what's the point of having friends if you don't f#&k them?"
On a real note, I've had a similar thing. I can be friends with girls and not have homsexual feelings towards them. I can be friends with guys and not have sexual feelings towards them. Just because I hang out with you, that does not mean I like you in that way. Friendship =/= gay.
This was a very thoughtful analysis! Gay lad here, I personally don't think they're gay.
It's never shown in the text that they have a sexual relationship, but they definitely love each other very deeply, more than most close friends I've seen. I wouldn't say they're a gay couple, since being a romantic couple generally has a sexual aspect. Holding hands and kisses on the forehead definitely don't count in that regard!
Frodo and Sam's dynamic is different from the rest of the close male friendships we're shown in the books, but again, that doesn't mean they're dating. Their love is profound and I think it needs a title more fitting than best friends or gay boyfriends, because their relationship exceeds the title of best friends, but they're also not boyfriends. Thus, platonic life partners is what I'd call them.
Life partners is a better fit than best friends, since Sam has Rosie move in with him and Frodo, and later Sam sets sail to join Frodo for the rest of his life, leaving his wife behind. They are partnered for life, platonically.
Life partners don't have to be romantic, although most life partners we see in media are romantically involved. I personally think Frodo and Sam's relationship is really special as far as fictional male bonds, and interpreting them as merely a gay couple takes away some of that specialness.
It's sad that male intimacy is now viewed as so unusual that relationships like Frodo and Sam's can only be conceived of as sexual. Hopefully someday it will be considered normal to have platonic emotional intimacy, physical contact, etc. between men.
Also I'm chuckling imagining the village of Bree being "queer" and The Prancing Pony being the most happenin' gay bar in Middle Earth.
Can you really call them “life partners” though when they’re apart from each other for most of their lives? Well, most of Sam’s at least, since we don’t have a date of death for Frodo.
I think the word you're looking for is soulmates.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I definitely think soulmates is what he means, and I definitely think both Sam and frodo would have died shortly after reaching the far west, but I still think the idea in some way or another, despite the uncertainty of the fate of men, was definitely to return to Frodo in death, that's the only way I've ever really read it, I've taken that for granted though perhaps I shouldn't have
You may not have hit all the right beats for token Lore but I generally agree with you!
I’ve been waiting for this video for a while! I’ve seen a lot of talk on this, and there was a lot of bad arguments on both sides. I like your take because you don’t straw man either side. Very good points. Thank you!
I was going to ask you to do a video debunking the modern Tolkien film fans relating Longbottom Leaf to weed. And what evidence from the books and author's position in the world to show it.
It would be a really short video lol. If I could find other similar topics I could do a video covering several at once though.
In deep geek made a cool video on that. Longbottom leaf= tobacco
Of the many possible theories, that one isn't hard to debunk. It'd be a 5 second video. The Hobbit itself explicitly refers to the leaf being tobacco most chapters, let alone further references within LOTR.
It's more wishful thinking on the part of stoners. Nothing substantiates it beyond a hobbit's love of food (entirely unrelated to "the munchies") and the relaxing effect it has after smoking - BUT - smoking pipe tobacco through a pipe has this effect anyway. Tolkien will have known that being a pipesmoker himself.
It's only down to the culture of cigarettes and decline of pipe-smoking over the past 60 or so years that this has been forgotten in the collective consciousness. Cannabis isn't the only smokable plant that makes you feel good. The weed kiddies need to wise up.
@@InhabitantOfOddworld In the second chapter of the prologue of LotR, Tolkien explcitly states that pipe weed is of the Nicotiana genus. Cannabis is the name of the genus from which all the plants that make weed belong.
Their relationship is about as close as humans and any other mammal you care to name.
@@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t
Well, yes. That only adds to the point. Tolkien was incredibly clear about the various strains of pipeweed being tobacco. Yet the stoners never listen.
She has an odd mentality in apart from nonfiction finding whatever you wish to find between the lines positive or negative to fit your own objectives or mind sets to force fit your own narrative.
The Brokeback Morder theory has been talked about for a long time, indeed.
"Sam, I'm cold." "Hee hee, Mister Frodo. I'll warm you right up I will. "
@@suppiluiiuma5769 Jesus
I have always wondered if it was Frieda and Samantha if people would still argue for this. People just seem to have an idea that male friendships can't invovle tears, hugs, etc.
Prior to watching this video, I'm going to say:
I don't remember Frodo expressing any sort of romantic or sexual attraction whatsoever in either the book or the movie. I'd call him asexual before I called him gay.
Sam is full-on simping for Rosie Cotton. I think he is straight. If he isn't straight, then he's bi/pan, not gay.
Once again, you approach these topics in a mature and professional manner. I really think that this is how more things need to be handled. Not just with Tolkien and his works but with things on a broader scale. I truly respect that you take the time to have discussion about the topic rather than scream that it is wholly wrong and put down the original author. I agree with the path of thinking that cultures and lifestyles of the book were 1.) Different AND of a different time, and 2.) From a fantasy universe and setting, which does in a way, make them wholly unknowable. I do not subscribe to the idea that Sam and Frodo had a physically romantic relationship. I will however concede to the idea that they did have an emotional relationship.
Keep up the good work, and I rather enjoy having you cover these more "controversial" topics. They are something to keep my mind moving and thinking about.
I agree about the calm and collected thing.
I think him being a solicitor probably helps. They tend to choose their words carefully and be quite deliberate with their points. You have to be precise when forming a legal argument.
Sometimes people make hyperbolic and reactionary statements which wouldn't hold up if scrutinised. A good lawyer wouldn't do that, hopefully.
I totally agree with you. Unfortunately this kind of content doesn't get pushed by the algorithm much, outrage sells a lot better... If only we could have more reasonable and respectful discussions online, the world would be a much better place. Maybe we can get there if we can break up the monopolies of megacorporations like Google or Facebook, who thrive on outrage, spectacle and polarisation. Unfortunately, they will never let that happen.
@@Enzaio - Reasonable and respectful discussions are not possible with persons who suffer from cognitive dissonance on the subject (as several recent psychological studies have shown).
@@tominiowa2513 And who would those people be in this context? Most people on the internet? I'm not sure if I follow.
@@Enzaio - Studies have shown that certain people will disregard any facts that contradict existing beliefs, and they can only be swayed in their beliefs by someone whom they consider an authority figure.
I don't think it makes sense to apply the word "gay" and I don't think they were crossing pork swords or anything, but they definitely had a more-intimate-than-friends love for one another. One might apply the term "bromance" but that doesn't quite fit either.
Each of them had a "the guy" kind of love for the other, but in different ways. Frodo loved Sam in a sort of paternalistic way of being the one responsible for making decisions and such, and Sam loved Frodo in the sense of being protective of him.
One thing that seems to get forgotten a lot is that casual male intimacy of a non-sexual nature was a lot more common when this was written.
7:00 About using ones body heat to warm others is perhaps odd to the average person, but that's 101 in any wilderness survival course. You will share a one man tent if the other guy, who lost his to a gale wind. You will lay back to belly if temperatures plummets. You will take your best buddies feet, remove his socks and place them on your belly to mitigate frostbite on his feet.
My point is that the author might've seen too few winters.
Tolkien was in the trenches during WWI he knew how miserable cold can get. Soldiers huddled together when they slept in the trenches for survival not sex.
Rose Cotton. Case closed.
Not really, but yeah, they're prob not gay
Thank you for a well reasoned rebuttal, honestly, this all became far too much to tolerate and it's lovely that people are discussing Tolkien's intent, much as you did with the Eowyn piece. It matters, what Tolkien wrote and why, and to impose a different lens on his works is to miss so many of the beautifully crafted layers he worked into his writing.
thank you for approaching these topics from a rational position. hopefully we are moving out of the era of fighting the angry tide
Tolkien Geek, an excellent counter-argument and analysis. "Molly" says she is all for "authorial intent" and then proceeds to read her own views into the story and the outside sources, including Tolkien's letters. She doesn't succeed in making her case because she never argues correctly from authorial intent or from the actual evidence. You, however, O Wise Geek, have made the logical answer to her allegations. More people should think clearly as you do. Keep up the good work. Namarie.
Short answer: no.
Long answer: Still no, but people saw a close, intimate relationship between Two male characters that was tender, loving and for want of a better word, rather beautiful. How often do you see genuine friendship portrayed in media? Rarely, and when it is, it is almost always turned to romance. If one of them was a female character, would you question people thinking they were in love?
Also, yada yada 1950s, repressive social systems had queer people hiding and searching for any hint of queerness they could find to hold solidarity in Plus toxic masculinity decrying any fraternal affection, declarations of fraternal love and acts of devotion as "gay" and "girly" is a recipe for people taking these characters as gay.
At the end of the day, no they're not gay, but it's pretty clear where the idea, and the shipping (although shipping happens for literally every piece of media, and every character and possible relationship they could have) comes from.
Best Tolkien Channel On UA-cam! IMOO.
I think this is a mix of two things:
1. Wanting representation and so seeing what you want
2. The lack of previous representation has made LGBT people look for things they consider 'hidden codes'. And in a history where gay people had to hide and use hidden codes and euphemisms to communicate or be breaking the law, this has now made its way into interpreting fiction. So you often see people flag up what seem like dog whistles, like 2 girls being 'roommates'.
When you put the two together people end up looking for signs of things that could fit what you want to see and claiming a hidden meaning. All affection between two men is now a sign of only one thing.
As usual I stick to my mantra. The books can mean anything to you personally. As Tolkien says, he's not a dictator to the audience. But Tolkien did have intentions, he did have ideas and thoughts to convey, and if the argument is that this is how we are meant to read the book there needs to be more substance than 1 and 2.
I'm a Catholic. I can confirm most Catholics have no problem with gay people. People's lives and choices are their own. Religion is about you and your life. One of the big Catholic things is that you shouldn't judge people. Only God gets to judge people. I won't stop reading Oscar Wilde. Christians all seem to get lumped together these days. I find the people who are most objectionable to be the fundamentalist protestants we see in the southern USA. Nothing to do with us.
👍
I have just re-read LoTR for about the 20th time (since 1980) and it struck me more on this read that their relationship is definitely gay-like. But why have I noticed this more on this read-through? It tells me their suspected gay relation is more a product of our time, not when the book was written. I also came to the conclusion their love and kissing is more "child-like" or innocent. We must remember Sam probably idolizes Frodo as he is a higher class member of Hobbit society. I imagine it was similar to people of Tolkien's era who admired and loved the royal family.
When I re-read the stories as a young mother I saw a very strong maternal aspect to Sam's feelings
Modern men are less touchy-feely and expressive than traditional men
When I read the books years ago the thought that Frodo and Sam were knocking each other off every night and that Tolkien just didn't mention it never occurred to me.
Thank you for analyzing this topic in a very polite and educative way. Also thank you for pointing out, even a Catholic can befriend with homosexual people. That’s not uncommon idea at all, for these days. Also in my home country kissing can be a common gesture to say hello or to express how close you are with the person you kissed. So yeah, kissing someone can be something unromantic too.
Yeah, I don't think they are gay, but Catholic does not unequivocally mean anti-gay
This is shameless speculation, but Tolkein doesn't strike me as someone that's too judgmental on that front
Being religious or non religious does not exclude you from being a humanitary and having friends of many walks of life.
No. JRR Tolkien was an ultra Conservative, straight, Christian male who used Biblical concepts in his stories.
Platonic kissing (on the cheek, on the forehead on the hand, etc) and embracing as methods of nurturing love typically are the domain of women. Men will do it as well though to other males who are depending on them. Doesn’t mean there’s a sexual element involved. I kiss my toddler sons all the time. I verbally express devotion to them all the time. The situation of the ring quest had these men counting on each other and their friendship obviously deepened to the level of family. I don’t see strong evidence it’s any more than that
I like how this topic is one of your longer videos lol
Considering the first thing Sam did when he got home was marry his dream girl id say hell nah
No, just no. Tolkien was a catholic traditionalist so the possibility is literally 0%
Only if you care about authorial intent, which is a very dull, lazy stance to take. The author's dead, and what the text shows us is all that matters. The text shows the clear possibility for same-sex attraction, so interpreting their relationship as romantic is valid and supported by textual evidence.
@@e.d.m3076 I'm mind boggled by this useless argument. Authorial intent is literally all that counts when we talk about what is meant in a text.
@@SlavicPrideOfficial Welp, try impressing a literature professor with that argument. I'll wait.
We can never be 100% sure what an author intended, and lots of authors and writers can struggle and fail to write what it is they actually want to say, so appealing to authorial intent is flawed and of limited use and interest.
Ignoring authorial intent is of limited use and interest. If there’s no intent to limit our interpretation then there’s no real limitation at all and all interpretations are just whatever we want to see in the story. Watch my video on the topic for a more fleshed out discussion of this.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I don't ignore it, which is why I say that interpretations need to be based on real textual evidence and not contradictory to it in order to be valid. But if we strap ourselves to authorial intent alone, a story loses a lot of its potency, and eventually becomes an uninteresting relic.
Everybody here is arguing for their own interpretation of strict heterosexuality based on Tolkien's Catholicism or anti-woke sentiment, but they forget Geoffrey Bache Smith, Tolkien's best friend at university who died in WWI was very probably gay or bi, and quite possibly in love with Tolkien, something Tolkien was apparently not ignorant of. They're cherry picking certain aspects of Tolkien to support their own interpretation while ignoring other aspects which contradict their take on things.
0:05 YEEEEES! THE SWORDS ARE BACK ON THE WALL, BABY!!!!
Good times! Can't wait for the maps to pop up next!
I really like your content and information, I just wish that there was more engaging visuals
I’d love to do some of that because a lot of people seem interested but I just don’t have the time for that much editing.
@@TolkienLorePodcast - Not to mention that doing so would open you up to many more specious copyright infringement claims.
@@TolkienLorePodcast very understandable... i still love the channel and the content
@@TolkienLorePodcast i wont name any other specific channel but even just interesting artwork about LOTR would be cool, again i dont make videos or understand what that would entail as far as editing, but that was the idea i had in mind when making my original comment, just fan made artwork about whatever the topic is. cheers! and thanks for making any videos at all, i would stil watch if it was just a black screen lol
So, with regards to Frodo and Sam holding hands... I always felt that the Hobbits certainly have at their core a child-like innocence. I'm an uncle, rather than a parent, but I do know that one of the first things children do when they're nervous is reach out for a hand to hold; they get reassurance from that. People who are acutely ill or injured derive comfort from hand holding, too.
So, at least the way I read it (feel free to disagree, but politely, please) is that it is just about Frodo and Sam achieving comfort, reassurance and - from that - strength in adversity.
Very likely, though hand-holding seems more common in Middle-earth generally. For instance Aragorn takes Frodo’s hand when he leaves the hill of Carib Amroth in Lorien.
Next: "Melkor and Ungoliant: how relations are destroyed by fat shaming."
Tolkien created a very complex universe and described even the leaves of a tree when he wanted to. If he wanted some gay relationship, he would made it clear.
Why does "fat shaming" remind me of Bombur?
@@tominiowa2513 Hahahaha. But if we consider Peter Jacksons movies, he could kill the Oliphaunt in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields like Legolas did.
What do you think about Sauron and Morgoth being drawn as gay anime couples in many fan arts?
I think it’s dumb or lazy. There’s really no reason to think of them that way other than you want to find that sort of thing to satisfy your own desire to be “represented” or what have you.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Agreed - I also finds those drawings dumb and lazy. I just wanted to know if you had the same opinion.
What anime? Of did you mean manga?
I think Sauron and Thurengwethil may be more fitting of an anime baddie couple but Morgoth and Sauron definetely admired, needed, and disliked each other All at once
So technically Fordo would of already been dead before Sam sailed... wow, I feel foolish that thought never crossed my mind. That's rough...
Yeah, I never heard it put that way - I always assumed that was the entire reason Sam sailed west, to reunite with Frodo - it seems obvious as the implied intent, though I'm sure he was happy to see more Elvish magic and Lady Galadriel again.
I believe Tolkien said that the mortals still had to die in Valinor, but they could choose when to die. So Frodo may have waited for Sam.
An interesting point about the greatest love stories being ones that end in separation. It depends partly, I guess, on what is meant by "love story" rather than story with a romantic sub-plot or merely with two characters who are in love or married. Presumably it would depend on the love angle being important in the development of the plot. It also depends on what is meant by "great" love story rather than a romantic comedy or a Mills-and-Boon type love story. The example you gave of Romeo and Juliet is, in my opinion, a rather silly story, but I think the general principle does tend to be true, although I'm sure there are exceptions. In my opinion one of the best, and most underrated love stories I've read is Beau Ideal, which would be a borderline example, because while John and his wife Isobel, who love each other deeply, end up reunited, the main driving force of the plot is Otis' unrequited love for Isobel, and he doesn't end up with her, (although they aren't exactly permanently physically parted either, because Otis is friends with John and in the sequel goes to visit his and Isobel's house).
You are right in my country we kiss when we meet and when we part, twice on the cheek + a hug or handholding. And it’s normal for girls and women to walk and hold hands at any age 😊
Frodo (particularly after getting stabbed with a morgul blade) was anything but gay (as Tolkien would have understood the word). The most gay (in the pre-Stonewall usage) character in the LOTR has to be Tom Bombadil.
I actually learned the word gay from reading LOTR in 1976, and it was a couple of years after that when I first became aware that "gay" was also being used as an informal term for "homosexual man".
"Queer" is another word I learned the original meaning from by reading Tolkien before knowing of its informal popular usage.
Thursday is Drag Night at the Poney.
This is very well explained. And the propensity for imbalances being healthy and good and evil a myth runs rampant today in the impatience to bring nonpolarity into a 3D world
I agree with your assessment and take your larger point, but homosexuality isn’t a “lifestyle” any more than you being straight is a lifestyle. That’s not me being a woke scold. There is a real difference there that should be acknowledged.
I’m specifically referring to living out one’s homosexuality rather than remaining celibate.
Interesting. I have read LOR many times and it seems to me that some kisses in Middle Earth were just a sign of great respect. Aragorn kissing the dying Boromir, Faramir kisses Sam and Frodo when they part. The parting at the Grey Havens. On the forehead or was that a movie thing? Also Sam was simple and almost child-like. It was almost like a parent child relationship between Frodo and Sam with that simple affection and reassuring type of physical touching. Also Sam was the peasant to Frodo the gentry and kissing the "ring" of the nobility so to speak?. Also being fallen Catholic myself I think the priesthood is pretty much a gay club so I'm sure Tolkien observed this fact
I think Sam was pretty intelligent. Yes, in some ways, you could argue Frodo imparts wisdom to Sam, but Sam is pretty much his protector and generally more of a practical guide to Frodo, so I would argue they are fairly even…
Also, a small number of priests not following their vows of celibacy is different from a "gay club". I have visited far, far too many Catholic Churches all around North America where priests have explicitly condemned such behavior while preaching. There are scandals, yes, but fewer than in public schools. Tolkien was friends with several priests and, in part, raised by one, so I don't think that is how he observed the priesthood.
The truly enlightened take is that Sam and Frodo were in a devoted QPP.
In my opinion there is a big difference between authorial intent and applicability, intact they are kind of the exact opposite.
Just because to can read certain themes and find evidence for it, it does not mean that this is what the author intended.
Yes but at that point you're just writing headcanon
@@Schwazoom its fine to have your own head cannon as long as you don't try to pass it as what the author meant.
@@aaronives6990 Yep!
@@aaronives6990 - "Head cannon"?
Is that a modern version of what Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took did to the goblin Golfimbul? 😉
12:10 So I wouldn't defend frodo and Sam's relationship by referencing Greek love lol.
Greeks had various kinds of love
That child in the background suggests You are not a bachelor ;)
I am indeed not a bachelor.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I found it funny that you ommitted specifying, because it certainly is beside the point, but All of this discussion is 'beside the point' xD also thanks for this Good work
Tolkien never wrote explicitly about sexuality t least a far as I know.I ´But he wrote about romance in very neo neo romanticist way. His idea of love and loss etc. could come from writersl like Novalis or E.T.A. Hoffmann. Therefore love is noble and connected to loss and valor. For me the story´ between Frodo and Sam is a love story, without doubt, but more the humble servant love who follows his master to the grave if necessary. My favorite possibly gay couple comes from the first age. Maedhros and his cousin Fingon. The only thing I cannot explain to myself is the meaning of the Thangorodrim story. It reminds me so much on Prometheus. But it was not Feanors family who brought the fire to middle earth and humans where still sleeping when all of this took place. But I do not believe it is a coincidence.
Tolkien comments on why there are not love scenes in the LOTR in this 1964 BBC interview.
Put "bzDtmMXJ1B4" in the UA-cam search field.
Thank you.
Farmer Maggot's dogs at 36:45? 😉
About being catholic, it is clear that he manteined his faith even in the later years, like in Carpenter biografy, even when he goes to the church with his Grandchild and that the figure of "eru" has an important paper in his mythology, that being said he wasnt a fanatic pd: Mary renauld hated the LGBT movement even she being a lesbian
Next week’s episode: “Was Gandalf actually non-binary?”
Potential future topics:
“Exploring possible sexual undertones within ‘You shall not pass!’”
“Navigating murky waters: Examining Grima Wormtongue’s leather fetish”
“Were Boromir and Aragorn ‘closer than brothers’? One scholar from Berkeley takes a rather unorthodox view of Tolkien mythology”
Or "don't tell Rosie Cotton!" (note, not for you, but for ironically handicapped : this is satire)
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Underrated comment
@@hglundahl right: I mean those people are just so abusive to Rosie, she is like worthless.
It's comments like that that make rational discussions about such topics impossible. If, instead of respectfully bringing up your arguments all you do is to ridicule the fact people talk about such topics in literature that makes the whole discussion toxic
@@AlexFoobar104 it is because that whole thing is not rational to begin with. It is ludicrous. What do you expect, lolz
Well, let's see. Tolkien was a hard-core Catholic, and Sam has always loved Rosie. Even marrying her and having several children, including Goldilox oddly enough. So I'm gonna say, no.
If you think the Hobbits they are involved, then you abuse Rosie. She existed in the story, Sam loves and gets married to her 🤦🏻♀️
Tolkien would not mistreat women. Ever 🤷🏻♀️
Celebrían might beg to differ.
@@tominiowa2513 yes, but she was loved by Elrond. I mean, she was not discarded by him, because he was interested in someone else
People can be torn between people, and for the sake of story Tolkein has "abused" plenty of people including women, I don't think frodo and Sam were gay, but it is clear that there was a tension caused by Sam often being unintentionally distracted from Rosie by Frodo, which was arguably resolved once Frodo left
Excellent points. And why extrapolate from our own cultures to Middle Earth cultures?
I'm surprised you didn't bring up that Sam was married before Frodo even departed Middle-Earth. Even if we treat what this lady said as low-key evidence, the reminder of Rose Cotton is strong enough to overcome the alleged prior probability of Sam and Frodo's… gaiety.
Save y'all some time. No. Tolkien was extremely Catholic and grew up in the early 20th century. And he hated allegory. It shouldnt be controversial because if a person understands Tolkien they would actually call him homophobic by our modern standards.
And Once you start looking for the hidden meanings and secret codes in the Tolkien text you're moving into the world of Tolkien Kabbalism.
41 mins to say... No.
No. Tolkien is catholic. Like Protestants catholics have rules against being LGBTQ individuals. Tolkein would never include gay characters in his novels.
I think tokens Catholicism could be very deep and profound without him necessarily having to agree with the church's official stance on homosexuality, I'm sure that's ground for a lot of debate, and I obviously have no way of really knowing his true opinions on the subject, I just don't think his Catholicism or his friends are any indication of his opinions on the subject
Sam had a wife
It's warm, your hand I mean!
Seems to be a trend of creating an imagined sexual pathology concerning healthy male friendships in media, I think younger generations and certainly a portion of the boomer generation has a heavily degenerated and perverse frame of reference for what should and shouldn't be considered as existing in the realm of sexuality. In an age where marriages and birthrates are down, healthy family structure is being attacked, millenials are having less sex and watching more porn than any other generation and every kink and fetish imaginable is being paraded in public, is anyone REALLY surprised that someone living through that can't fathom that two fictional characters conceptualised decades ago aren't gay simply because they have a close, caring and mutually supportive relationship? People have been moulded to fetishize everything because they have a severed and unhealthy relationship with sex due to the utter poison of modernity, something Tolkien (I believe) would most likely have included as themes in his stories had he lived longer into the modern day
She says she believes in authorial intent but her argument is based on ignoring it. She lists a lot of facts but they do not fit together into a coherent argument as many of them really have nothing to do the matter and the others have far, far more likely interpretations. She's trying to spin things to support the story she wants LOTR to be.
I do find it peculiar how common it is these days for people to think that the any type of physical contact between people beyond the most basic (a handshake for example) or something more specialized (sports, caring for children, etc) has to mean something sexual is happening. Frodo and Sam had a very close relationship beginning in the Shire but one that was truly forged in the struggle to get the Ring to Mordor and destroy it. I would think it similar to the bond that can form among soldiers who fight together for a long period of time.
Bottom line for me is I see no evidence at all to believe Frodo and Sam had a homosexual relationship.
No.and no.not even.
Admire your forthright approach - as a gay male reader, any romance however sublimated between Frodo and Sam never was apparent to me. I agree that the essay you discuss fails to support its thesis. -- However regarding some comments below, my own experience is that married men with children do have romantic and sexual relationships with other men.
I don't think this is a questions with a definitive answer. At the end of the day every kind of relationship could be interpreted in a romantic or platonic way. If it comes to how Tolkien intended it to be interpreted, I think it's important to go with the most probable answer.
The way that Frodo and Sam interact is definitely possible to be interpreted in a romantic way and I think you would do Tolkien a disservice if you accused him of not being aware of that. Yes, platonic hobbit relationships already seem to be closer to romanticism than what most people reading lotr would consider normal platonic relationships but Frodo and Sams interactions clearly go beyond that. They cuddle, they show greater affection for each other than for anyone else and Sam gets nervous after holding Frodos hand, which clearly indicates that it's not just a normal cultural ritual for him (like all the platonic kisses that you listed). I don't think anyone educated on the existence of LGBTQ people could have read the books and never even once question their sexuality and I think Tolkien was aware of that. So why would he write their relationship this way if he didn't want it to be interpreted this way?
I'm not a religious person myself, so maybe I misunderstood the concept, but I always was under the impression that Christians have a personal relationship to god and that they trust their own believes rather than the institution that personifies them (the Bible depicts many things arguably worse than homophobia [Exodus 22:18, 1 Peter 2:18, Leviticus 20:9] and I don't think Tolkien would've held those believes either ).
So I don't see Tolkien being a practicing Catholic ruling out that he supported Gay relationships. In the video you didn't show any evidence for him actively speaking against Gay relationships, but the opposite, actively supporting his homosexual friends. I don't think he would've actively supported them if he just respected them as humans but secretly saw them as "sinners".
So when it comes to the authors intend I really think him wanting to depict a queer relationship without making it blatantly obvious is very plausible and most likely the most probable obvious answer to an unbiased person (However there's no way I can actually know for sure if this is true, since I myself admit to be biased towards this romantic relationship existing).
But disregarding all this talk about the authors intend, I'd like to add that I'm of the opinion that head canons can also be a valid form of engaging with a story, as long it's made clear to others, who might get confused about the original canon. I think there is nothing wrong with viewing characters and their relationships through a personal lens if it might help you with exploring your own identity and sexuality, as long as you don't pressure it onto people who aren't interested. So in the end, regardless of the arguments I've made about Tolkiens intends, if you view Frodos and Sams relationship as purely platonic and find comfort in the fact that such a close intimate relationship amongst friends is just as possible and acceptable in society, that's also completely valid!
(also sorry, for the weird sentence construction and possible spelling mistakes, I'm not a native speaker so that can be difficult for me sometimes)
One thing you’re missing is that the official position of the Catholic Church is that homosexual sex is a sin. I don’t see why Tolkien wouldn’t be able to be friends with a homosexual person on those grounds though since in the Christian view EVERYONE is a sinner in some way or other. So you can recognize that someone sex life is contrary to what you think is moral but also recognize that you also do things contrary to those morals and thus not take some kind of holier-than-thou approach to the people you interact with.
@@TolkienLorePodcast so it would still be completely fine for Tolkien to write some of his characters that way, right?
There’s no reason he would make his heroes that way. He didn’t write any of his heroes to have obvious, voluntary sins. Moral failings sure, but that’s a different thing. Consciously choosing to do something and not managing to live up to one’s own standard are two different things.
This is the worst theory ever. Sam literally has a wife and kids later, shows no romantic feelings towards Frodo and makes no sense given Tolkien was a devout Catholic.
Bisexuals exist.
@@e.d.m3076 sure, but then the debate would be around if Sam was bi, not Gay.
Either way the rest of my points fill out.
@@joshuanugentfitnessjourney3342 You're splitting hairs. Sam very much does display feelings for Frodo which can easily be interpreted as romantic if you stop assuming everyone is heterosexual until proven guilty.
One such display is his hesitance to commit to his life with Rosie while Frodo is still in Bag End. Let me emphasise: Sam was split between his wife and his 'master', and could only be at peace once Frodo left. He also sailed to Eldamar after Rosie's death to find Frodo, rather than staying, dying, and getting buried beside his wife.
We can of course interpret this as intense, deep friendship, but it is equally as valid to interpret it as romantic. Tolkien's Catholicism is neither here nor there because the author is dead, figuratively and literally. Any interpretation based on sound textual evidence is valid.
Remember though, even Molly Ostertag is going by authorial intent.
@@TolkienLorePodcast That's her prerogative, but I think authorial intent is only worth so much. People can hand-wave and talk about Tolkien's Catholicism to their heart's content, but if the text shows us the possibility for romantic and sexual interest between the two, that's what matters most.
I'm surprised that Molly didn't ask (in withnail and I style) ; """Who's the stone and who's the sponge!!!"""
Dude, careful with those titles: I cringed so hard from it I pulled a muscle and tomorrow I'll have to go see a doctor to ensure I have neither eye nor brain cancer.
Calm down...
@@PABrewNews woosh
It's probably ball cancer.
F
@@Bagginsess I don't have balls, I'm a woman.
Checkmate :v
@@Artemisarrowzz [redacted sarcastic comment about females]
Europe in the past and even some cases now kissing is definitely not just romantic. The kiss of fealty is a real thing. As a Catholic he would have had times where he had to give a kiss of fealty. Think kissing the Pope's ring or a bishop or cardinal ring. We in the States really do men a disservice by assuming all affection between men has to be romantic or sexual.
"Men need to show their emotions"
Men: shows their emotions
"Ahah gay"
Wtf?
i am gonna save you 42 minutes. no.
A few thoughts:
1. In LotR we encounter cultures in which overt and tactile expressions of respect and affection, including between people of the same sex, are more more common and less inhibited than in contemporary English-speaking cultures. There is no need to posit a romantic or erotic significance to most of the kissing episodes.
2. Individual Catholics often privately differ with official Church doctrine (in Australia, where I live, some polls show a majority of Catholics disagreeing with Church doctrine on issues such as homosexuality and abortion), so Tolkien's Catholicism is not conclusive evidence, one way or another, of his attitude towards same-sex relationships.
3. We can deduce from certain texts (e.g. the discussion of The Quest Of Erebor in Unfinished Tales) that Frodo needed to be free to leave the Shire on his quest, and that this necessitated his not being tied to a wife and family. This then invites the question of how and why a young Hobbit who was better looking than average (by Hobbit standards), very wealthy with a fine home, and retained his youthful appearance until the cusp of middle age, would not have had any close relationships with Hobbits of the opposite sex for the entire 17 years following his coming of age.
Yes, but in Tolkien's case, he talked as if he believed about his Catholicism… a lot. We know about his conscious attempt to remain metaphysically consistent in Middle-Earth with his Catholic Faith and even saw his mother as a martyr against Protestants. So it seems odd that he would make an exception on that one issue.
I'm recording my answer now so not to be influenced by yours before I listen. In short, Tolkien was of a culture that did not talk about sex or even sexuality openly. So even when characters like Eowyn express attraction it is not in sexual terms. The relationship between Frodo and Sam is decidedly one of the master and faithful servant. It's very classist. Could they have been gay? Sure but by the author's intention that is highly doubtful.
Tolkien's writings are archaic in that they well could be of the Victorian era. Many things could be said and done in post WW1 Britain that would have been unthinkable 20 years earlier (read Galsworthy's A Modern Comedy and End of the Chapter which were published between 1924 and 1933).
@@tominiowa2513 'read Galsworthy's A Modern Comedy and End of the Chapter which were published between 1924 and 1933)'........
No one's gonna read that mate.
Laughing my literal arse off :)
Sam thinking about Rosie all the time is the key
@@05wilko - "No one's gonna read that mate."
Why?
@@tominiowa2513 I was just in a humorous mood at the time. Tbf I'd never even heard of it it. The title just sounded drab :)
My answer: No.
Tolkien Lore's answer: No, but in forty minutes.
The great perversion of our age is the inability to imagine any close relationship without sexual attraction and intimacy. I got about 10 minutes in and just cannot go on. The world we love in is so disgusting sometimes.
I like ships, big shipper and enjoy others ships immensely, but I have no interest in proving the fantasy real or forcing author's to accept them. That's how we got fan fiction, random, fun ideas. I also miss old fashioned friendships like this. There was a depth from such physicality and affectionate language that never needed to be romantic. Interesting video btw.
I had to look up "ship" and "shipper" in Urban Dictionary to make sense of your comment.
@@tominiowa2513 Sorry. If it helps, I didn't know what it meant either until I became a moderator on a reactor channel for the series Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I'm guessing it has something to do with two ships passing in the night or whatever as an indicator for made up or actual cannon couples. But they were infectious darn it.
It reminds of a post I saw about LOTR masculinity, it mentions that the men cry, kiss one another's foreheads, hold hands, banter without being sleazy, are respectful of women and faithful to their partners, and they're still considered manly. It's this kind of friendship that is rare these days, and it can be hard to find.
@@coherbia I wish that were the norm.
@@barbarabaker1457 As I understand it, “ship” is short for “relationship.”
In the first 6 chapters theirs evidence. No women in his life, hes 50 years old. He lives with his uncle. He took a bath with 3 other hobbits enjoying it. He ran from danger immediately when his friends where in trouble instead of helping like a women would. Help! Help! He ran naked in the field with hobbits after bombadillo told them to strip there wet clothes.
Hes a 50 year old man running down a path with no effort on his part to help yelling, HELP HELP HELP. Sams kicking the damn tree cursing it. how are you suppose to view frodo, like sam an orc of a man? or like a noodle running down the path with arms up in the air gay.
Well argued. I am sad this has to be revisited so often.
No…and yes.
People use the word “gay” these days to mean a lot of different things. Back when I was a kid, it strictly referred to sexual relationships. But nowadays, that’s not really the case anymore. The meaning of words evolves over time. What can be truthfuly said is that Tolkien has very specific language he uses for characters who are having sex, and he doesn’t use that language for Frodo and Sam. So definitely, they aren’t having sex. Beyond that though, trying to tie down the exact nature of their relationship is difficult. And personally I tend to take the view that trying to do so is kind of beside the point. Whatever words you want to use to describe their relationship, it is obviously something to emulate. I’m fairly sure everyone can agree on that.
Sam and Frodo: We're not gayyy. Not that there's anything wrong with that!
I don't think they're so much gay, as they're not not gay, together for the most part, if you know what I mean, or if you struggle to wrap your tender mind around the girth of my rigid thought that's fine, academic bottoms are valid too
I heard Eowyn gave Aragorn a hummer out by the dumpsters behind Edoras. You saw how she was looking at him.
Oof, you'll give some of the folks here an aneurysm talkin like that
As a point, when Tolkein wrote this homosexuality was illegal in the UK and had been for his whole life until the 60s. Many of the things we question now and are accused of modern bias towards reading one way or another will have been written to be ambiguous. During Tolkein's lifetime behaviours were explained away as some turned a blind eye to them. But there is a cultural undercurrent where if you know at the time of writing then you understand if there is an intentional undercurrent or not. It is something that is lost by this age as homosexuality has been increasingly open and public.
Haha i new it!