Wow, an M2 Carbine in .22 Spitfire would be an excellent weapon. Select-fire in a lightweight weapon is where the round would shine. As a direct competitor to the AR-15 in .223 Remington, it's not up to par and I'm glad the military chose the more advanced and effective AR-15 instead of the presumably less expensive alternative of converting their supply of carbines. However, the .22 Spitfire M2 Carbine still would have been one of the best weapons in the world at the time, it's only that the AR-15 was so ahead of everything else at the time. Had the .22 Spitfire been developed 10-20 years earlier in the heyday of the M2 Carbine, it would have been the best personal defense weapon (PDW) in the world. 5lbs and quite controllable in full-auto. It wouldn't do everything a rifle or SMG would do, but it would be a great compromise outstanding in many roles. If not for the NFA, I imagine this cartridge may likely have had an enduring following with American shooters. A competitor to the M16 in a more traditional, familiar style with a little less weight and a little less recoil for more controllable automatic fire, yet still potent. Similar to 10mm Auto in muzzle energy. It would be a nicely balanced handy lightweight carbine. I'd probably rather rely on a weapon like that to defend myself than anything chambered in a pistol cartridge then available.
You bring up a good point that it would have been great in the M2 Carbine as a PDW, if this cartridge was developed earlier, however I think it was developed too soon. This would have been an ever better cartridge than FN's 5.7x28, as it has more case capacity, so imagine if this round used that special powder the 5.7 round uses, the velocities and armor piercing capabilities would have been tremendous.
The .22 Spitfire would definitely be a much better round than the FN 5.7x28mm used in the P90 submachine gun. The FN 5.7 is too much of a pistol caliber with 570 joules of muzzle energy. The .22 Spitfire breaks the 1000 joule barrier putting it into the small rifle caliber.
@@GeorgeOu that energy you quote, is from spitfire rounds fired from a full length barrel (18 inches). If fired from the same barrel length as the p90, the spitfire would lose velocity as well.
I remember these in the 60s. Good design but the M1 carbine was never accurate enough to be a "varmint rifle" so it was not very successful in commercial sales. It was also relatively expensive compared to the cheap (at that time) .30 carbine ammo and cheap, surplus, M1 Carbines. The Johnson rifle and cartridge offered no real advantage over the original .30 carbine and did it for a much higher cost. Another cartridge, the .219 Zipper, suffered the same fate. It was designed to try to make a varmint rifle out of the Model 94 Winchester. The cartridge had some promise, but the rifle never met the accuracy requirements. The .22 Savage Hi-Power, marketed in the Savage Model 99 lever gun, which predated both of those, was actually advertised as a big game rifle. There were too many other, better, big game cartridges available in the Savage Model 99. Ironically enough, the Spitfire carbine would probably be a better seller today than it was in the 50s and 60s when it had to compete with cheap surplus carbines and ammo. Were someone to build this today, using a replica M1 carbine, it may be quite successful. IF they could do it for a cost similar to other pistol caliber carbines on the market. With modern propellants, it would outperform the 5.7mm FN or .22 TCM cartridge, and everyone knows how light and handy the M1 carbine is.
Even back then it outperformed the 5.7x28mm and the .22 TCM. It was getting 2,800 fps chronoed at its lowest and about twice the energy of the 5.7x28mm at that!
A friend of mine had a rifle that was very similar to this ... but it was chambered in . 256 ......... I think it was a .357 necked down to .25 caliber
.256 Winchester Magnum? I have seen and heard of some M1 Carbines rebarreled for .357 Magnum, so I guess someone must have done something with .256 as well. That's a cartridge which I think would have a lot of promise, can you imagine a rebarreled Marlin rifle or a rebarreled Coonan pistol?
Melvin Johnson really had a strong influence in today's guns. He himself made use of the rotating bolt with radial locking lugs that we see in AR15 and AR18 style rifles now, and it was Melvin Johnson himself who worked with Eugene Stoner, and told him *"This is the best way to do a rotating bolt, you should use this setup in automatic rifles."* In that sense, it's curious how his effort for a smallbore M1 Carbine for the military lost out in favor of the AR15, a rifle from one of his old subordinates.
It's for the best that we adopted a rifle in which a rotating bolt locks into a barrel extension rather than channels cut into the receiver. Allows for a much lighter receiver and inherently better accuracy.
Dude.. thats like 5.56 & 300 blackout. In theory all you'd need to do is swap barrels! Thats REALLY ahead of its time! Wow! Edit: You know, I wonder what this would done for reliability.. I bet that necked down case might've helped resolve any feeding issues!
About 50 years ago, I had Johnson rebarrel a Plainfield M-1 carbine to 5.7mm. RCBS made case forming dies, and as I recall I fed it 40 Speer pills loaded on top of IMR 4227. At normal operating pressures for publishes handloads, it was real finicky about headspace, and very prone to head separations which left the ruptured body of the cartridge case stuck in the chamber. I gave up shooting it.
5.56 is not ideal for modern carbines and short barreled rifles. It’s designed for a 20 inch barrel. There’s far more propellant than necessary. Excess flash/blast but even more so recoil _(a grain of propellant imparts 50% more felt recoil than a grain of bullet mass)_ There’s a reason why Colt created the MARS in 1997 immediately after the M4. 5.56x30. How does it compare to 5.56x45 out of a 10” barrel? Both 2600 FPS. No surprise. Just basic design. .221 Fireball is the same idea - parent case of the .300 Blackout - Designed for barrels up to 14.5, or 16” _(.222 Remington, with less powder than .223, was determined to have far too much propellant)._ ...and the French 5.56x30mm GIAT... and the Indian 5.56x30mm MINSAS.
Exactly. It baffles me how things like the 5.7MMJ and 5.56x30mm MARS never got popular. They’re clearly more efficient and practical, but people cling onto familiarity. Yet, 5.7x28mm is relatively popular and has similar dimensions compared to 5.7MMJ, whilst only having half the energy. I do think the 5.56x30mm MARS could’ve fared better if Colt marketed it towards the real market, the citizens, instead of chasing government contracts and giving up entirely once they failed. The world very often seems backwards.
I have a National Postal Meter in 5.7mm Johnson. It is an accurate half-moa rifle at 50 yards. Loves anything from 35 to 47 grains and will run 3,000 to 2,500 fps easily. East to convert .30 carbine brass to 5.7 with one pull of the press. A pound of powder will produce 500 loads! Brass lasts up to a dozen firings! Lots of fun, but not something to hunt with. I saw Serial No 001 by Plainfield, Corp at a gun show in Orlando. Sold for $450. I would not take a grand for mine. Want to restore it? Just screw on a .30 Carbine barrel and you are good to go.
M1 Garand was a success. The government wanted something smaller and lighter for auxiliary troops. Had to be light, shoot 300 yards, etc. Same company the made the M1 Garand put together the Carbine, and bam.
The M designation just means it is a item officially adopted by the US Militarily. "M1 Carbine" for short and "Model 1 US - Semi-Automatic Carbine - .30 carbine for full". "M1 Garand rifle" for short and "Model 1 US - Semi-Automatic Rifle - .30-06 Springfield" for full.
5.7mm Johnson has twice the energy of modern 5.7x28mm FN… It is incredibly underrated.
From a carbine length barrel, yes.
@@snmrz We can only buy the PS90 in carbine length, or Ruger or FN pistols so there's that.
Wow, an M2 Carbine in .22 Spitfire would be an excellent weapon. Select-fire in a lightweight weapon is where the round would shine. As a direct competitor to the AR-15 in .223 Remington, it's not up to par and I'm glad the military chose the more advanced and effective AR-15 instead of the presumably less expensive alternative of converting their supply of carbines. However, the .22 Spitfire M2 Carbine still would have been one of the best weapons in the world at the time, it's only that the AR-15 was so ahead of everything else at the time. Had the .22 Spitfire been developed 10-20 years earlier in the heyday of the M2 Carbine, it would have been the best personal defense weapon (PDW) in the world. 5lbs and quite controllable in full-auto. It wouldn't do everything a rifle or SMG would do, but it would be a great compromise outstanding in many roles. If not for the NFA, I imagine this cartridge may likely have had an enduring following with American shooters. A competitor to the M16 in a more traditional, familiar style with a little less weight and a little less recoil for more controllable automatic fire, yet still potent. Similar to 10mm Auto in muzzle energy. It would be a nicely balanced handy lightweight carbine. I'd probably rather rely on a weapon like that to defend myself than anything chambered in a pistol cartridge then available.
You bring up a good point that it would have been great in the M2 Carbine as a PDW, if this cartridge was developed earlier, however I think it was developed too soon. This would have been an ever better cartridge than FN's 5.7x28, as it has more case capacity, so imagine if this round used that special powder the 5.7 round uses, the velocities and armor piercing capabilities would have been tremendous.
5.7MMJ would be a good pdw cartage today.
The .22 Spitfire would definitely be a much better round than the FN 5.7x28mm used in the P90 submachine gun. The FN 5.7 is too much of a pistol caliber with 570 joules of muzzle energy. The .22 Spitfire breaks the 1000 joule barrier putting it into the small rifle caliber.
@@GeorgeOu that energy you quote, is from spitfire rounds fired from a full length barrel (18 inches). If fired from the same barrel length as the p90, the spitfire would lose velocity as well.
It seems that Ruger picked up where Johnson left off.
Ruger ranch rifle.
I remember these in the 60s. Good design but the M1 carbine was never accurate enough to be a "varmint rifle" so it was not very successful in commercial sales. It was also relatively expensive compared to the cheap (at that time) .30 carbine ammo and cheap, surplus, M1 Carbines. The Johnson rifle and cartridge offered no real advantage over the original .30 carbine and did it for a much higher cost.
Another cartridge, the .219 Zipper, suffered the same fate. It was designed to try to make a varmint rifle out of the Model 94 Winchester. The cartridge had some promise, but the rifle never met the accuracy requirements. The .22 Savage Hi-Power, marketed in the Savage Model 99 lever gun, which predated both of those, was actually advertised as a big game rifle. There were too many other, better, big game cartridges available in the Savage Model 99.
Ironically enough, the Spitfire carbine would probably be a better seller today than it was in the 50s and 60s when it had to compete with cheap surplus carbines and ammo. Were someone to build this today, using a replica M1 carbine, it may be quite successful. IF they could do it for a cost similar to other pistol caliber carbines on the market. With modern propellants, it would outperform the 5.7mm FN or .22 TCM cartridge, and everyone knows how light and handy the M1 carbine is.
Even back then it outperformed the 5.7x28mm and the .22 TCM. It was getting 2,800 fps chronoed at its lowest and about twice the energy of the 5.7x28mm at that!
Imagine KelTec PMR 30 and CMR 30 chambered in this ammo.
Love this rifle,
The ammo is probably rarer than hens teeth.
That's why you reload!😉
A friend of mine had a rifle that was very similar to this ... but it was chambered in . 256 ......... I think it was a .357 necked down to .25 caliber
.256 Winchester Magnum? I have seen and heard of some M1 Carbines rebarreled for .357 Magnum, so I guess someone must have done something with .256 as well.
That's a cartridge which I think would have a lot of promise, can you imagine a rebarreled Marlin rifle or a rebarreled Coonan pistol?
I like the idea of a .256
I remember when these were hot news.
All the while "The Prodigy- Spitfire" is playing in my head making me want one even more.
Melvin Johnson really had a strong influence in today's guns. He himself made use of the rotating bolt with radial locking lugs that we see in AR15 and AR18 style rifles now, and it was Melvin Johnson himself who worked with Eugene Stoner, and told him *"This is the best way to do a rotating bolt, you should use this setup in automatic rifles."*
In that sense, it's curious how his effort for a smallbore M1 Carbine for the military lost out in favor of the AR15, a rifle from one of his old subordinates.
It's for the best that we adopted a rifle in which a rotating bolt locks into a barrel extension rather than channels cut into the receiver.
Allows for a much lighter receiver and inherently better accuracy.
Dude.. thats like 5.56 & 300 blackout. In theory all you'd need to do is swap barrels! Thats REALLY ahead of its time! Wow!
Edit: You know, I wonder what this would done for reliability.. I bet that necked down case might've helped resolve any feeding issues!
For the cost of a barrell its a wonder noone took it on. The Vietnamese would have loved it. They love M1 carbines
What is the price of a barrel?
I absolutely dig this..so basically a mini 14..but way b4 it's time ..as you said ..SAD HE MISSED OUT ..POLITICS GOTTA LUV IT..HHMMM
Build it .It will sale.
Gotta love the .22 spitfire! 😍😍😍😍
I wonder if there was M2 carbine that fired that round 5.7 MMJ .
I own one. Fun rifle to shot. It’s a pain to have to reload the ammo for it though
Yeah... It's sad...
Would the M1 Carbine action handle modern 5.56?
I can’t find any ammo for mine. Most likely have to do custom loads
About 50 years ago, I had Johnson rebarrel a Plainfield M-1 carbine to 5.7mm. RCBS made case forming dies, and as I recall I fed it 40 Speer pills loaded on top of IMR 4227.
At normal operating pressures for publishes handloads, it was real finicky about headspace, and very prone to head separations which left the ruptured body of the cartridge case stuck in the chamber. I gave up shooting it.
5.56 is not ideal for modern carbines and short barreled rifles. It’s designed for a 20 inch barrel. There’s far more propellant than necessary. Excess flash/blast but even more so recoil _(a grain of propellant imparts 50% more felt recoil than a grain of bullet mass)_
There’s a reason why Colt created the MARS in 1997 immediately after the M4. 5.56x30.
How does it compare to 5.56x45 out of a 10” barrel? Both 2600 FPS. No surprise. Just basic design.
.221 Fireball is the same idea - parent case of the .300 Blackout - Designed for barrels up to 14.5, or 16” _(.222 Remington, with less powder than .223, was determined to have far too much propellant)._
...and the French 5.56x30mm GIAT... and the Indian 5.56x30mm MINSAS.
Exactly. It baffles me how things like the 5.7MMJ and 5.56x30mm MARS never got popular. They’re clearly more efficient and practical, but people cling onto familiarity.
Yet, 5.7x28mm is relatively popular and has similar dimensions compared to 5.7MMJ, whilst only having half the energy. I do think the 5.56x30mm MARS could’ve fared better if Colt marketed it towards the real market, the citizens, instead of chasing government contracts and giving up entirely once they failed. The world very often seems backwards.
I have a National Postal Meter in 5.7mm Johnson. It is an accurate half-moa rifle at 50 yards. Loves anything from 35 to 47 grains and will run 3,000 to 2,500 fps easily. East to convert .30 carbine brass to 5.7 with one pull of the press. A pound of powder will produce 500 loads! Brass lasts up to a dozen firings! Lots of fun, but not something to hunt with. I saw Serial No 001 by Plainfield, Corp at a gun show in Orlando. Sold for $450. I would not take a grand for mine. Want to restore it? Just screw on a .30 Carbine barrel and you are good to go.
Did Johnson try to sell these rifles or carbines to the law enforcement?
I want this
Odd that 70 years later FN came out with a 5.7mm round for a pdw
FN P90 1990.
Yet this .22 Spitfire has double the energy.
I did not know this weapon existed.
Johnson had an amazing talent for designing weapons that weren't any better tham what was already in use.😀
does anyone hand load these rounds?
what is the relationship between M1 carbine and M1 Garand?
M1 Garand was a success. The government wanted something smaller and lighter for auxiliary troops. Had to be light, shoot 300 yards, etc. Same company the made the M1 Garand put together the Carbine, and bam.
The M designation just means it is a item officially adopted by the US Militarily. "M1 Carbine" for short and "Model 1 US - Semi-Automatic Carbine - .30 carbine for full".
"M1 Garand rifle" for short and "Model 1 US - Semi-Automatic Rifle - .30-06 Springfield" for full.
I have a 5.7 Johnson, I’ve never fired it.
Why?