You cannot expect units to be in perfect sync when you have no sync signal applied to all recording units. I worked in a broadcast post production facility and ANYTIME you want timecode to remain on perfect sync you MUST record from a master generator. But toy need to take a step back to Understand exactly what time code is.. Time code was invented to duplicate what film does. In film you have sprocket holes along the film to determine frames. In video there was no such standard. So Time code was invented. It uses the vertical sync signal which determine a video frame. You can set a random time and use the vertical sync as the clock signal. Since video tape is extremely accurate with regards to vertical sync you would not get a "drift" on playback. On record the timecode was generated by the vertical sync signal which was recorded as part of the video frame on tape. On playback the longitudinal tine code was just an audio signal recorded on tape.. If you used more than one tape machine that required the exact same tine code, the machines got fed the LTC from the master generator, which got its clock from the vertical sync signal to which all video equipment used. The majority of usage of time code was just to determine in-points to an edit, never used as a real time clock. When you use them on digital audio recorders, the time code clock is driven by an internal clock which WILL drift. But again think of why you are using time code in the first place!. We used time code to INITIALLY sync an audio tape playback machine to the video tape machine. Once initial lock was aquired, the video tape machine would sent the vertical sync over telephone wires to the FM station s audio playback machine capstan servo system Therefore we could playback a stereo audio, high quality audio track. Let me know if you need more understanding if time code. Btw I restore broadcast video tape machines now
Since you're coming at me as if I know nothing about time code and had no idea what I was doing in this video, I'll fill you in on the film world since you're coming at this from a broadcast background. Let's take this in steps. I was testing the time code signal itself against other time code signals on battery powered devices that only output timecode. It doesn't matter what recording device you plug them up to - if you are constantly getting a regenerated signal out of them, you can check the sync without having timecode on the recorded media. If you jam the time code into the camera, it's up to the camera to hold that timecode and you'd only stab the camera against if they went offspeed and then return to a regular framerate. If you watched my entire video, I did talk about the ideal way to do a timecode test comparison was to use a master time code generator and not a battery powered device as the source. I didn't have that option so I used the industry standard device (Denecke TS-2 smart slate) at the master time clock. Less than ideal as you pointed out but it'll work for our two tests considering the results of the two tests were comparable and between two tests and three devices I would be able to tell if they drift. I use battery powered frame accurate time code devices everyday so I know their pros and cons and know what drift looks like and how to pick out anomalies. It's also important to note that the perforations are what the winders grab to drive the film forward. On smaller film stocks a perf will align once per frame but on larger stocks, the perf count will help provide info such as aspect ratio but it's still used primarily for driving film. The servo motor can be adjusted to help align the film correctly for projection. It was an analog process and sync of audio to video was manually performed. Everything you said about tape is spot on (as you know) but in the world of digital audio and video recording, it's a different. Metadata travels along with all the other zeros and ones so encoding the timecode with the audio and video signals (which is done on different stand alone units) is necessary since there's no analog track to record timecode to. In post, syncing by time code is a couple of clicks away and provided the time code encoded is accurate, everything will align instantly. That's why devices like the TS-2 and BP-TRX are important to compare together - they need to perform the same job equally as accurate. If time code drifts between the audio recorder (which IS the master time clock if an external generator isn't used) and any of the multiple cameras each being jammed by it's own sync box jammed from a torch or master clock then the audio and video has to be aligned manually by a person and that costs a lot. The audio and video is synced automatically via time code when the audio and video is first put together and it can be verified by many people from dailies to the assistant editors. Timecode remains in metadata on the combined audio/video files so that it can be used in editorial but especially before editing was all done by computer, EDLs produced during offline sessions could be imported in during the online session to reduce costs and timecode was critical there. You're right that the clock part was never critical, it's just numbers used to determine the accuracy of time passage while rolling or playing back. Tape based time code may drift if they are battery powered which is why wall power is critical. I saw this happen two times back in the 90's with different units. I didn't set them up so I've always questioned if it was done right because I was not there to verify servo lock. I do appreciate your message and technical side from the broadcast perspective.
@@SoundSpeeds all i am saying is that if multiple video or audio devices are supposed to record the same thing (cameras from different angles, and audio from different locations) they all must run with the same sync signal or they will drift as all crystal oscillators do over time. Back when they used Nagra recorders for film as the audio the cameras were the master clock source and a cable was ran from the camera to the audio recorder. As the motors in the camera became crystal controlled there was no need foe this cable, however they did still drift over time. One reason why things on film were shot in small sequences. Also even the largest 35mm film magazine could only hold 10 min worth of images, so drift back then using crystal controlled cameras/audio recorders was not an issue. A 400' 35mm film magazine only had a run time of 10 min, so you would have to stop and reload anyway. The audio and film camera, since they were crystal controlled, would not drift that much to notice If you ran multiple film cameras and recorders (staggering the start time) you could record limitless amount of time. However unless they all were driven by the same clock sync, they would drift. But on film it really didnt matter because you were never going to play them all back at same time you had to make edits. On video tape you could run up to 3 hours on on reel of tape. But since audio was on the same tape, drifting was not an issue. But even tape speed can be synced to a common sync signal. But If run stand alone, run time will drift. Not by much, but it will drift. Whether a device is battery powered or not should have no bearing on how much it drifts, the fact is, they will drift. Even as metadata in a digital format, it was placed there by a clock signal and if not kept in sync by some common sync signal, they will drift and cannot be helped as they have nothing to reference to. Its called free running oscillators. If you took 100 digital audio recording devices (even by the same manufacturer) they will all drift if not locked together by a common sync signal. Thats all I am saying. In analog video were timing is super critical, so you will never have two cameras run in sync if not locked together. You would never be able to perform clean switches between cameras. That is why they all had a common sync signal. Not only is timing critical but the phase difference of the timing signals was important. So things like camera cable lengths were important as they produced phase errors in the timing.
Exactly spot on. Everything you said. That's why it's important for me to point out things like that the devices are battery powered and that one unit Jams another which hand others. It's common practice. This is also why Deity's claim of drifting one frame every 24 hrs have to be verified. Maybe not 24 hrs but certainly 6-12 since that's the typical duration we'll use these devices on set daily. You sir are speaking my language and I love that you're willing to share your knowledge and experience here. It adds a lot and anyone reading this will learn a lot from what you said. I personally was smiling and nodding the whole time. Thank you for watching and interacting.
@@SoundSpeeds of course. Love to help out. I have been in broadcast since 1960 (yes im old) and have been in tape my entire life. I now volunteer my time restoring Ampex 2" quad video tape machines. I had worked in NYC at a TV station and also at the east coasts largest post production facility. Also an an Emmy award editor. I began by cutting tape, than manual electronic editing, then EECO editors to a heavily modified CMX system. That system was amazing!! We could assign up to 22 different input devices from film chains, 24 track audio recorders, slow-mo machine, Chyron, etc. Basically anything that could be driven by tine code. We had a CMX-600 that we would get EDLs from on. An 8" floppy or punch tape if we needed that. Each editing suite had full control of any device in the building and each had its own grass valley triple re-entry switcher, Ampex-ADO, & Chyron. Audio was handled on a separate floor and we just had full control of each of the audio suites. I had fun there.
Thanks Allen! I was suepr confused about potential timecode issues on the ones that I've been testing, and I never tried to judge them based off of the screen, but rather based off of the Metadata. So this makes a lot of sense.
Thank you so much for going above and beyond reviewing this unit, this is exactly the kind of extra tests I was hoping to see on these little guys. When I watched your first video I was a bit irked by Deity not having screen accurate timecode, but then I remembered that the Amira used to have the same issue, so we'll let it slide haha. Great work Allen, thank you!
Thank you. If the recall, on the first Alexa the display was exactly 1 frame off and sound people panicked because we couldn't get it in sync. Then we got Alexa support who told us they intentionally built a 1 second delay onto the display as opposed to a few frames that would catch our eye. Once we knew, we were fine with it. Knowledge is power.
Also, I'm pretty much sold on these being used as TC boxes, but do you have any thoughts on using these for NON-mission-critical camera hops? I know in your original video there was a lot of potential to have interference from all the devices and such that run through the 2.4ghz space. But if a production is just asking for scratch sent to cameras, feels like this could be a great cost-effective way to do that (as I live and work in a small market in the Northwest). Thanks again, Allen. Signed, Sean (a grateful fan)
Thank you. I think you're the first person in over 4 year that has ever referred to yourself as a fan. Awesome! Thank you again. Since the 2.4GHz spectrum got crowded I have said that as a camera hop is the only way I'd consider using the Connect system on a set. That I am on board with. Thumbs up from me on that if not critical.
"Who knows what happens in the minds of these devices". Thanks Allen - I enjoyed this. Very thorough. BP-TRX decent enough TC device - your tests and observations about the display have improved Deity's product - chapeau! I wondered if the +/- 1 frame (back and forth over the test) had something to do with the temperature compensation - so I just finished reading an article explaining how a TCXO works and ...I'm none the wiser. lol. The main thing is they work well enough (although I admit i was 'watching thru my fingers' as I have already bought the TC package:).
For time code it's very effective so be at peace. Your experiences may suffer from those in my review too and I'd be interested to see how your system is working out
That's a timecode test and a half ..that timecode plugin looks interesting. So realistically as accurate as you're going to get without radio. a 200 quid timecode box that also records. or at 400 - two timecode boxes, or a wireless set that records or two pocket recorders with timecode. That's versatile.
Hello Allen I like your audio reviews a lot very complete, I have a request can you review the AUDIO TECHNICA ATW-1800 SERIES? they are very expensive and yet not to many reviews about them, is that bad equipment or what? I got a pair of the receiver and the transmitter very very very cheap so I wondering what you have to say about it. thank you!
As much as I would like to Emiliano, I probably won't ever. I'm so far behind on my reviews now that it's crazy. Some I've not been able to get to for 2 years.
Great reviews! Can you test two deluxe kits with duo receiver connected via cable? Can you rely on the reception just for monitoring when receiving audio from four bp-trx?
It would depend entirely on your RF signal. If you are too far away in a heavy 2.4GHz congested spectrum then it's doubtful but if there's not much then you will likely have a better chance of being able to monitor your transmission.
The BP-TRX has been out a while now. Have any firmware updates improved wireless transmission performance? Seriously considering buying the connect kit deluxe with these bptrx units included or the xlr plug-on transmitter/recorder with the BPTRX as the receiver.
You cannot expect units to be in perfect sync when you have no sync signal applied to all recording units.
I worked in a broadcast post production facility and ANYTIME you want timecode to remain on perfect sync you MUST record from a master generator.
But toy need to take a step back to Understand exactly what time code is..
Time code was invented to duplicate what film does. In film you have sprocket holes along the film to determine frames. In video there was no such standard. So Time code was invented. It uses the vertical sync signal which determine a video frame. You can set a random time and use the vertical sync as the clock signal. Since video tape is extremely accurate with regards to vertical sync you would not get a "drift" on playback. On record the timecode was generated by the vertical sync signal which was recorded as part of the video frame on tape. On playback the longitudinal tine code was just an audio signal recorded on tape..
If you used more than one tape machine that required the exact same tine code, the machines got fed the LTC from the master generator, which got its clock from the vertical sync signal to which all video equipment used.
The majority of usage of time code was just to determine in-points to an edit, never used as a real time clock.
When you use them on digital audio recorders, the time code clock is driven by an internal clock which WILL drift.
But again think of why you are using time code in the first place!. We used time code to INITIALLY sync an audio tape playback machine to the video tape machine. Once initial lock was aquired, the video tape machine would sent the vertical sync over telephone wires to the FM station s audio playback machine capstan servo system Therefore we could playback a stereo audio, high quality audio track.
Let me know if you need more understanding if time code.
Btw I restore broadcast video tape machines now
Since you're coming at me as if I know nothing about time code and had no idea what I was doing in this video, I'll fill you in on the film world since you're coming at this from a broadcast background. Let's take this in steps. I was testing the time code signal itself against other time code signals on battery powered devices that only output timecode. It doesn't matter what recording device you plug them up to - if you are constantly getting a regenerated signal out of them, you can check the sync without having timecode on the recorded media. If you jam the time code into the camera, it's up to the camera to hold that timecode and you'd only stab the camera against if they went offspeed and then return to a regular framerate. If you watched my entire video, I did talk about the ideal way to do a timecode test comparison was to use a master time code generator and not a battery powered device as the source. I didn't have that option so I used the industry standard device (Denecke TS-2 smart slate) at the master time clock. Less than ideal as you pointed out but it'll work for our two tests considering the results of the two tests were comparable and between two tests and three devices I would be able to tell if they drift. I use battery powered frame accurate time code devices everyday so I know their pros and cons and know what drift looks like and how to pick out anomalies.
It's also important to note that the perforations are what the winders grab to drive the film forward. On smaller film stocks a perf will align once per frame but on larger stocks, the perf count will help provide info such as aspect ratio but it's still used primarily for driving film. The servo motor can be adjusted to help align the film correctly for projection. It was an analog process and sync of audio to video was manually performed. Everything you said about tape is spot on (as you know) but in the world of digital audio and video recording, it's a different. Metadata travels along with all the other zeros and ones so encoding the timecode with the audio and video signals (which is done on different stand alone units) is necessary since there's no analog track to record timecode to. In post, syncing by time code is a couple of clicks away and provided the time code encoded is accurate, everything will align instantly. That's why devices like the TS-2 and BP-TRX are important to compare together - they need to perform the same job equally as accurate. If time code drifts between the audio recorder (which IS the master time clock if an external generator isn't used) and any of the multiple cameras each being jammed by it's own sync box jammed from a torch or master clock then the audio and video has to be aligned manually by a person and that costs a lot. The audio and video is synced automatically via time code when the audio and video is first put together and it can be verified by many people from dailies to the assistant editors. Timecode remains in metadata on the combined audio/video files so that it can be used in editorial but especially before editing was all done by computer, EDLs produced during offline sessions could be imported in during the online session to reduce costs and timecode was critical there. You're right that the clock part was never critical, it's just numbers used to determine the accuracy of time passage while rolling or playing back.
Tape based time code may drift if they are battery powered which is why wall power is critical. I saw this happen two times back in the 90's with different units. I didn't set them up so I've always questioned if it was done right because I was not there to verify servo lock.
I do appreciate your message and technical side from the broadcast perspective.
@@SoundSpeeds all i am saying is that if multiple video or audio devices are supposed to record the same thing (cameras from different angles, and audio from different locations) they all must run with the same sync signal or they will drift as all crystal oscillators do over time.
Back when they used Nagra recorders for film as the audio the cameras were the master clock source and a cable was ran from the camera to the audio recorder. As the motors in the camera became crystal controlled there was no need foe this cable, however they did still drift over time. One reason why things on film were shot in small sequences. Also even the largest 35mm film magazine could only hold 10 min worth of images, so drift back then using crystal controlled cameras/audio recorders was not an issue. A 400' 35mm film magazine only had a run time of 10 min, so you would have to stop and reload anyway. The audio and film camera, since they were crystal controlled, would not drift that much to notice
If you ran multiple film cameras and recorders (staggering the start time) you could record limitless amount of time. However unless they all were driven by the same clock sync, they would drift. But on film it really didnt matter because you were never going to play them all back at same time you had to make edits.
On video tape you could run up to 3 hours on on reel of tape. But since audio was on the same tape, drifting was not an issue. But even tape speed can be synced to a common sync signal. But If run stand alone, run time will drift. Not by much, but it will drift.
Whether a device is battery powered or not should have no bearing on how much it drifts, the fact is, they will drift.
Even as metadata in a digital format, it was placed there by a clock signal and if not kept in sync by some common sync signal, they will drift and cannot be helped as they have nothing to reference to. Its called free running oscillators.
If you took 100 digital audio recording devices (even by the same manufacturer) they will all drift if not locked together by a common sync signal. Thats all I am saying.
In analog video were timing is super critical, so you will never have two cameras run in sync if not locked together. You would never be able to perform clean switches between cameras. That is why they all had a common sync signal. Not only is timing critical but the phase difference of the timing signals was important. So things like camera cable lengths were important as they produced phase errors in the timing.
Exactly spot on. Everything you said. That's why it's important for me to point out things like that the devices are battery powered and that one unit Jams another which hand others. It's common practice. This is also why Deity's claim of drifting one frame every 24 hrs have to be verified. Maybe not 24 hrs but certainly 6-12 since that's the typical duration we'll use these devices on set daily.
You sir are speaking my language and I love that you're willing to share your knowledge and experience here. It adds a lot and anyone reading this will learn a lot from what you said. I personally was smiling and nodding the whole time. Thank you for watching and interacting.
@@SoundSpeeds of course. Love to help out. I have been in broadcast since 1960 (yes im old) and have been in tape my entire life. I now volunteer my time restoring Ampex 2" quad video tape machines. I had worked in NYC at a TV station and also at the east coasts largest post production facility.
Also an an Emmy award editor. I began by cutting tape, than manual electronic editing, then EECO editors to a heavily modified CMX system. That system was amazing!! We could assign up to 22 different input devices from film chains, 24 track audio recorders, slow-mo machine, Chyron, etc. Basically anything that could be driven by tine code. We had a CMX-600 that we would get EDLs from on. An 8" floppy or punch tape if we needed that. Each editing suite had full control of any device in the building and each had its own grass valley triple re-entry switcher, Ampex-ADO, & Chyron. Audio was handled on a separate floor and we just had full control of each of the audio suites. I had fun there.
You went over my head with all the gear but it's clear that you love what you do just as I do in my world.
Wow, great technical test ! Congrat's on getting the $Thanks button !
I saw that just last night. Had a $10 Thanks on my BP-TRX review. Thanks
We just watched a master at work 🤌 great test!
Thank you sir.
Amazing test! Congratulations for your extensive work. We really appreciate it!
Sure thing. Thanks for watching.
Thanks Allen! I was suepr confused about potential timecode issues on the ones that I've been testing, and I never tried to judge them based off of the screen, but rather based off of the Metadata. So this makes a lot of sense.
Sure thing. Thanks for watching
Thank you so much for going above and beyond reviewing this unit, this is exactly the kind of extra tests I was hoping to see on these little guys. When I watched your first video I was a bit irked by Deity not having screen accurate timecode, but then I remembered that the Amira used to have the same issue, so we'll let it slide haha. Great work Allen, thank you!
Thank you. If the recall, on the first Alexa the display was exactly 1 frame off and sound people panicked because we couldn't get it in sync. Then we got Alexa support who told us they intentionally built a 1 second delay onto the display as opposed to a few frames that would catch our eye. Once we knew, we were fine with it. Knowledge is power.
Also, I'm pretty much sold on these being used as TC boxes, but do you have any thoughts on using these for NON-mission-critical camera hops? I know in your original video there was a lot of potential to have interference from all the devices and such that run through the 2.4ghz space. But if a production is just asking for scratch sent to cameras, feels like this could be a great cost-effective way to do that (as I live and work in a small market in the Northwest). Thanks again, Allen. Signed, Sean (a grateful fan)
Thank you. I think you're the first person in over 4 year that has ever referred to yourself as a fan. Awesome! Thank you again.
Since the 2.4GHz spectrum got crowded I have said that as a camera hop is the only way I'd consider using the Connect system on a set. That I am on board with. Thumbs up from me on that if not critical.
"Who knows what happens in the minds of these devices". Thanks Allen - I enjoyed this. Very thorough. BP-TRX decent enough TC device - your tests and observations about the display have improved Deity's product - chapeau! I wondered if the +/- 1 frame (back and forth over the test) had something to do with the temperature compensation - so I just finished reading an article explaining how a TCXO works and ...I'm none the wiser. lol. The main thing is they work well enough (although I admit i was 'watching thru my fingers' as I have already bought the TC package:).
For time code it's very effective so be at peace. Your experiences may suffer from those in my review too and I'd be interested to see how your system is working out
Great test!
Thank you. :-)
That's a timecode test and a half ..that timecode plugin looks interesting. So realistically as accurate as you're going to get without radio. a 200 quid timecode box that also records. or at 400 - two timecode boxes, or a wireless set that records or two pocket recorders with timecode. That's versatile.
A lot of very cost effective and versatile products on the market now. That time code reader VST comes with Reaper
Hello Allen I like your audio reviews a lot very complete, I have a request can you review the AUDIO TECHNICA ATW-1800 SERIES? they are very expensive and yet not to many reviews about them, is that bad equipment or what? I got a pair of the receiver and the transmitter very very very cheap so I wondering what you have to say about it. thank you!
As much as I would like to Emiliano, I probably won't ever. I'm so far behind on my reviews now that it's crazy. Some I've not been able to get to for 2 years.
Great reviews! Can you test two deluxe kits with duo receiver connected via cable? Can you rely on the reception just for monitoring when receiving audio from four bp-trx?
I mean if you record locally in the bp-trx and try to monitor on two duos
It would depend entirely on your RF signal. If you are too far away in a heavy 2.4GHz congested spectrum then it's doubtful but if there's not much then you will likely have a better chance of being able to monitor your transmission.
I hope Deity rewards you somehow for this devotion to testing.
That's not the way this works but thank you.
The BP-TRX has been out a while now. Have any firmware updates improved wireless transmission performance? Seriously considering buying the connect kit deluxe with these bptrx units included or the xlr plug-on transmitter/recorder with the BPTRX as the receiver.
First look and see if you can find a BP-TRX Connect system. They are discontinued. To answer though, there have been no new firmware updates in years.
That would be the package with the original Deity connect RX and two bp-trxs for body packs?
www.deitymic.com
See what you find.
Just being honest, I have no idea what's going on here. 🤣 I'm gonna go fly a drone. #AllenIsTooSmart
LOL.