How BIG & HEAVY were Medieval Pollaxes?
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- Опубліковано 22 лют 2022
- How long and heavy were original medieval pollaxes, used by knights between the 14th and 16th centuries? We take a look at the historical evidence, and originals in museums.
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It's not the size that matters, but the context.
*context intensifies*
That’s what she said 😭
The length of your shaft does affect what technique you use.
This is the comment I was looking for, as soon as I heard Matt say that.
@@KastaRules me2. Hilarious indeed.
I always said that to my ex...
"The length of your shaft, so to speak, makes a difference with certain techniques and how they work." -Captain Context
Lt. Long Game
Sgt. Short Game
Regarding the short version, my intuition is that you would easily reshaft your nice pollaxe as a cavalry axe/hammer if you know that you'll spend a battle/campaign on horseback.
Loving these Poleaxe videos!
Such an underrated weapon in fantasy/fiction
My last D&D character was a 5e human fighter (battle master? something like that) who used a pollaxe. Loved using him.
Quite combatant. Long reach threatened up to two squares away when most weapons only threatened the adjacent square.
Complexity and danger I think might be a big part of what has kept the poleaxe out of film and TV? I'm somewhat hopeful that HEMA enthusiasts and reenactors exploring what can be done with the weapon will eventually lead to seeing them on screens. What I wouldn't give to have an end to people on screen dying when slashed across their steel breastplate with an arming sword!
And yeah, Corey, polearms of all kinds are always under utilized in D&D. I had a lot of fun for a little bit with a 3.5 fighter who specialized with a halberd, but I hear there's a lethal meme combination in 5e that would put my 3.5 character to shame.
@@iDEATH The danger of pollaxes for sure. That and the fetishization of the sword.
@@coreys2686 facts
I loved it in Chivalry. It was the only weapon capable of dealing chopping, piercing and bludgeoning damage. Very versatile and very cool. That game introduced me to the weapon. I know Chilvalry 2 is out now and i want to play it really bad but i need to get my main laptop fixed first :(
Loving the pollaxe talk! That Venetian pollaxe you were looking at from the Met (no. 14.25.340) is /definitely/ Venetian. If you look closely at the blade you can see it's etched with the winged Lion of St. Mark.
Additionally, are you familiar with the ca. 1500 collectanea of Pietro Monte? In book 2 chapter 12 of that treatise, Monte explicitly states his ideal length for a pollaxe, I feel like that could have been beneficial to your discussion. A translation by Mike Prendergast is included below.
XII. HOW LONG THE POLEAXE MUST BE.
The length of the poleaxe or tripuncta to the hammer should be in measure one hand longer
than the man carrying it, so that it can reach everywhere, without being lowered to strike the
other’s foot, for a distance on the ground as long as our self. For in leaning down great danger
threatens, especially if we are wearing heavy armour, since the weight of the armour weighs
forward, and no one can recover quickly. And in combat one should walk as far from the other
as he is tall, for when they are fighting and come closer, they can be seized with the hands.
Here, however, once we approach, it is more beneficial to work a dagger or mucro than a
poleaxe, taking the other’s tricuspis with our left hand or seizing in another place which is
safe, so that he cannot flee; or we should make a grip by which we can throw him down.
I had not seen this before. It seems to be a similar length to what works with Anonimo techniques. Though there were definitely much shorter pollaxes used in other systems.
That passage is informative. It grounds the lengths of the pollaxe in a physical argument based on the dimensions of the person's reach: shorter and you're vulnerable to the hands and more effective handbased weapons. It seems like they wanted it to be as short as possible, but long enough to hit any angle on the opponent outside of hand range.
By 10:47 I can't help but feel like we are talking about somewhat distinct "classes" of the general design.
A tool for War, A tool for Dueling/Palace guarding/Policing, And finally, A Self+Home defense/everyday carry..
Fringe topic about a fringe topic. Im here for it.
I allways have that strange feeling and distraction that Tod is gonna open the wooden door in the back from his side to ask Matt to help him with testing new swords, shoot medieval armour or discuss war-darts
Thank God, I legit was just about to start looking into the size and weight of pollaxes.
People with ADHD: “Time to start working on that project… also I wonder about the length and weight of the medieval pole axe, better look that up first.”
I'm re-reading the Kingmaker series by Toby Clements. A pollaxe is featured throughout the books so I've become more interested in these weapons. Much appreciation for this upload.
Im just going to chalk it up as "user preference/individual's role". you know, because horsemen could typically have one type and footmen another and then you could have steve who likes a long, meaty shaft and bob who likes his smaller and thinner
"long meaty shaft" 🤣
You bet your axe I clicked.
You pointed to a great pun.
I had never heard of those sword length poleaxes before. Sawed off poleaxes are somehow an awesome concept.
It's vital to remember that everything was hand made and the easily replaceable wood means you can literally make a new handle to fit YOU. Its absolutely no difference to getting a hand made fitted clothing. Somebody else using the same thing would probably feel uncomfortable. You put a longer than needed handle on it and swing it around. Chop an inch off the end and try again. Keep doing it until it feels just right.
If Matt and his Wife got identical heads and attached customized handles they'd be different lengths.
I really like the beak added to the hammer side. Good for penetrating armor while preventing overpenetration so it will not get stuck in the armor.
+scholagladiatoria *If I'm reading this vid correctly, poll axes were ballparked from 1m for horseback models to ~2m for battle on foot.* Oak shafts with square cross-section, langets against splintering as much as enemy staff weapons, potentially a disc guard about mid-length, also potentially a spike for a butt-shoe.
This was great - I'm building a couple different poleaxe designs and this is very helpful, cheers Matt!
I always consult my 1978 AD&D Players Handbook for length and weight. ;P
Oh god, like 3 kg arming swords. The horror.
Great video. I'm absolutely poleaxed...
I'll see myself out.
"I'm very usefull!" Hrhrhr, that got me chuckling...
Just saw this on the home tab with 1 view, so I had to watch it of course
This was really interesting. Thank you, sir!
8:24 Very detailed drawing of the armor, though it is amusing to see what I assume was cutting-edge military technology depicted in the ancient past.
Medieval and Renaissance artists gave zero effs about anachronism.
Vast majority of people in 15th and 16th century couldn't possibly have much idea how clothing, armor etc, in antiquity looked like, it's normal. Some artists were deliberately adding lots of weird ornaments that seemed antique to them. Particularly scale armor, since it's described few times in Bible. But not always.
Today, we theoretically should know better, and yet you still have some absolutely hideous "reconstructions" of Roman arms even on History channel. And infamous leather segmentatas in quite recent movies. Won't even touch "Vikings".
Not necessarily true. Some artefacts remained. A lot of it comes with trying to merge present culture with exotic/ancient culture in art
Modern style of historians weren't really a thing so they wouldn't have any clue what the ancients had. Only what they had at the time. The funny thing is though is that in the grand scheme of things. The difference between the classical period and the end of medieval era isn't very different save for the existence of gunpowder. A man with a shield and spear was as legitimate in the 1400's as in the bronze age.
Well, now we know what was going on with that hilted poleax from your collaberation with Tod's Workshop. They made one of those short, hip-tall, poleaxes entirely out of metal. Determined that one with a wooden haft worked better, probably due to both weight considerations and durability (the metal haft bending). Which caused people to abandoned that line of research, which is why there are so few surviving historical examples.
No. That’s probably not it.
Very informative video.
I was having a metric hissy fit until you started quoting Imperial weights 🙂
I had a calculator handy for conversions, but I still wanted Imperial measurements to get proper representation 😄
Avg seems to be 5.5 lbs
4.5 lbs on light side.
6.9 lb on heavy side.
love the obligatory "so to speak" for every "your shaft"
"For the imperial amongst you..." Wait, did you fully convert to metric?! That's great!
Not quite, you can see him guestimating his height in metric, he like most Brits still does height in imperial
The more attractive ones seem slightly heavier. I wonder if they were less for battlefield use and a bit more for showing off. Having said that rich people had more amour and were going to fight differently in the field and armoured fighting reduces the need to be nimble and increases the need for heavy blows.
8:23 that club the other guy is holding
Would also love a video about the weights of different spears. I always imagined them as light and nimble but having bought a greek spear head and butt cap and mounting them on a 6 feet shaft gave me a super heavy and clunky spear. Bad point control, very unwieldy. So I'm wondering if the socket was too thick. It would be great if you can cover all that in a video.
They're all a lot lighter than i expected. Just out of curiosity i weighed a wooden broom i had and that came in at 2.4 kg :O
Weapons are usually not heavy at all
Light = quick = living longer, usually. Heavy weapons, generally, hit harder, but are slower and tire the user out quicker so they are not used on the battlefield. You want a weapon as light as possible while still being solid enough to hold up in combat.
Still pretty unbalanced overall, though, which I must imagine is the reason why they weren't more common. Sticking an axe, spear, and hammer at the end of one pole seems like a great idea until you realize how much mass you're swinging around, right? Otherwise why wouldn't they be far more popular even before their time in the armor / arms race?
I hope you have some footage from the weekend of training that you're planning on sharing!
Terrific presentation. As good as Dr. Toby Capwell. You must have a PhD, too. 😊
Matt this is alittle off topic, but I was watching your old videos on British miltiary saber and had an idea. Could you do a video comparing the military-era saber training of the Americans? Was it very similar to the British?
Thanks for the videos! Nice to see the poleaxe finally get some much deserved coverage.
Another pollaxe video? You’re spoiling us, my man.
"It's a beefy shaft, feels good in the hand" lmao
I love this sort of detail, especially about poleaxes. They are such interesting weapons to me. I'm fascinated by polearms in general, though, from the humble spear up to all the fancier things like poleaxes and fauchards or whatever else. Swords *are* cool, but also kind of boring by comparison.
I love all things poleaxe , Would love more tips and tricks and training and purchasing and he using poleaxe, Would love to see some videos of you training with them in your HEMA group
you don't need to do kg->g conversions every time. that's the beauty of the metric system, it's trivial :)
What do we need? More poleaxe-vids! When do we need them? NOW!
Do you have any informations about the diameter of the shaft? I guess 3,5 - 4 cm....
Have you thought of doing a video on Lochaber Axes?
At the risk of sounding irreverent, this particular pole ax that looks like a Swiss Army knife was a big can opener In a modern context
It was even designed to have an ergonomically Fashioned handle to give you the best leverage and I small area
Specifically designed to try to penetrate or deliver in, and lethal blows through plate armor
The length of your shaft does indeed make a big difference!
I myself own a long sword length Pol axe and it is very universal for handling with 2 hands and very difficult for one hand use weights little over 4 lbs
Someone make an out of context compilation of this guy, please
With regards to weapon weights and replacement shafts being of different lengths, surely you can eliminate the weight of the shaft because you can calculate that? You can measure the length of the shaft and its diameter and you identify the wood to get the density, so you can calculate the mass. Then you subtract that from the total mass to get the mass of the metal bits. This then gives you a range of weights for poleaxes of different lengths.
Great video! One thing to remember when considering sizing vs the size of the person wielding it is that people were generally shorter then. So that while 6' 1" is as tall as you, those being represented in the art could be more like 5' 1-4" And that makes a big difference at least in length if you're considering the historical weapons being 5 ft 1 vs 6 ft 1 like the one you have - and an extra foot length of wood probably makes at least a little difference in the weight as well.
Though I'll add real quick that by no means does the above imply that there were not soldiers that were 6 ft , there certainly were, but I'm just going on averages rather than exceptions.
Medieval men were not that short, much less well-fed knights who would be wielding those poleaxes. The average height across Europe ranged from about 68 inches in the Early Middle Ages and some change to 66ish inches by the time of the 17th and 18th centuries. Like you said, these are average heights, but the fighting men were larger and hardier than the average, so it was not unusual to see knights over six feet tall. Richard the Lionheart was famously tall, 6'5". So you can't really use the average height at all, you have to go off of average fighting-man height, which is a different number that I do not know.
Twist: all halberds are exactly the same size, and the proportions only appear to vary based on the relative height of the soldiers.
My only problem with that is... Yes. Of course... Good job on that one.. but.
The thing is your average Soldier.. or Knight... Was not of the AVERAGE People...
They were the exception... Right... Fighters... Warriors.. Knights..
We're usually on the bigger and stronger side of the graph or scale...
Yes of course their were some outliers, some small warriors... Not so certain about small Knights. But probably some...
My Pole Axe is 109.22 cm and 1,695 g. Light and nimble, for close quarter battle (burglar).
Windlass update?
Cheers!
Presumably a pollaxe would be (along with other weapons) personal to the individual and fighting technique (and dimensions). If you were wealthy enough for a full set of armour you certainly could afford your own weaponry.
I love the Pollaxe. A pure weapon of war!
Given, as was shown that length could vary a lot, probably the best comparison is just the weight of the head absent the shaft. This could be estimated fairly easily if the height is known from the examples.
I was recently listening to a podcast about alexander the great and they mentioned that he invented or popularized or made great use of "a really long spear".
I think they possibly where taking about the Xyston. Have you ever talked about this, or have any other UA-camrs that you would recommend that have?
It was sort of a foot note in their discussion only brought up near the beginning then again when he had to fight an army with elephants...
Thanks.
Were they perhaps referring to the Sarissa? It was the Macedonian pike which was really popularized by Philip II, Alexander's father.
Pretty telling if somebody calls a Pike a "long spear". Maybe not the most accurate Podcast.
@@adambielen8996
I don't know.
But now I have a new thing to google and research. Thanks.
Interesting stuffs.
Also scythe chariots!
I think you are correct.
@@Aaron.Reichert Chariots are very niche items and were, pretty much, rendered obsolete by the saddle. You could only use them on flat, open ground as they would break on rocks and root not to mention the horses breaking their legs. You see them more on ancient desert battlefields for this reason. Mostly they were used to haul archers around. If they tried to charge a line it could be easily countered by spears as horses don't like impaling themselves on sticks. Also, horses are/were expensive.
@@chuckhoyle1211 Another reason chariots disappeared as meaningful weapons, is simply that over the years of selective breeding, horses simply got bigger and stronger. The domesticated horses available at the time chariots were in use weren't necessarily big enough for a grown, armed man to ride effectively. But you COULD harness two or more of them to a chariot and use them to drag you around, even if they weren't strong enough to carry you on their back. The chariot wasn't ideal, but it was preferable to nothing, and when they were in use, riding the horse simply wasn't an option. As soon as horses were large enough to effectively ride (and techniques had been developed to train them), the chariot became obsolete.
Even in the medieval period, knightly horses were smaller than sometimes imagined. Not "ponies", as some pop-culture listicle websites intent on "deconstructing" history sometimes claim, but they certainly weren't mighty clydesdales.
Is it possible to make a vid also describing the differences of poleaxe designs from different countries?
I noticed most can be guessed to being "German", "French", or "Italian" for example, were there overall design preferences between those countries, and would the HEMA arts originating from those countries have demonstrable influences no said shape, length, and/or weapon types?
Sit may i ask you a question. I am a carpenter by trade and an amature armorer by hobby
Are langetts typically above the eye of the axe / hammer head as in around the head. Or is it under the eye as in inlayed on the shaft the driven through.
Also may i ask how the spear or dag is attatched?
Just one more great example of one of your videos expressing how (1) any particular "style" of (insert weapon name) can come in quite a range of attributes, and (2) when it does, and it doesn't fit one's expectations--is it a "bad" example ... or do you just need to use it differently?
That is a lovely Pollaxe, does anyone happen to know who makes/sells it perchance?
The short pollaxe is actually just a sword-hammer Tod's given you
The 4th type reminds me a lot of the dwarf pollaxe Tod made.
Why do I suspect that the Metropolitan Museum measured in imperial with a far lower accuracy than those ridiculous decigrams would imply, and then converted to metric?
Never stop the innuendos!
Did most of the longsword length pollaxes have a guard near the head? It looked the case with most of those pictured at that length, and rare on the larger pollaxes pictured.
Wait a second does the smallest sizing sometimes lack a top spike? I have a model like you describe that in a pinch could be used one-handed or even primairly one-handed if your strong enough. It has lenghets a beek and a hammer combo plus something on the bottom just no top spike. It's the same lenght you describing if it had a top spike and I have just bin calling it a warhammer. I gues my question is more like is a weapon that is a poleaxe in all espects but lacking of a dag still a poleaxe or not?
Hey Matt, you know what else is Riveting? Attaching Langets to a poleaxe.
They are very cool weapons. It seems like they would be perfect for a gritty modern movie but I doubt we will ever see it done well.
So do we have the start of the Easton typology for pollaxes?
"Pollaxe" is considered to literally mean "head axe" in middle English. Some think the "head" part refers to the complexity of the head or cross.
I have considered the title "Pollaxe" probably means "head height axe" or "head high axe".
Your own Pollaxe meets that criteria. I would assume that a "head height" weapon creates the ideal balance of reach and ergonomics for the user. In this case many Pollaxes produced for the gentry would be individually tailored to the user taking into account his stature and strength. This may account for any variations.
Not sure about the depictions in art. Although If a nation state provides a "general issue" mass produced weapon then the length of the weapon is down to the state armoury producing it. Thus if you are a tall man-at-arms your weapon may appear to be "short", and if your "vertically challenged" then it will appear to be longer. You are not likely to realise any issues with the balance and heft until after your first melee. Assuming you survive you may take a saw to the shaft at that point to solve any balance issues.
Just a thought :)
Thing is, poleaxes weren't really used by levies or militias. They were specific to armored professional soldiers (knights, gendarmes and the like). Anyone who can afford the other equipment that one would wear to even consider using a poleaxe in the first place (full plate armor) would certainly be able to afford to have bespoke hafts fitted. This isn't really the kind of weapon you'd just issue out of a militia armory.
Probably just personal preference, and skill being factored. There's always a give and take and advantages and disadvantages. Shorter is stronger with less reach and longer is more prone to breaking or whatever.
which length/ size of pollaxe do you find the most convenient to carry?
So, the length of my shaft affects my ability to use certain techniques...
"THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!"
Wonder how many of those very short pole axes were made short by the shaft being broken and the shafts are not replaced (yet)?
No Bec de corbin being shown???
Anytime Matt says as you may know I'm hearing it for the first time 😂😂
How heavy were the ones used during your training weekend?
You mention pollaxes in paintings and others visual art, but do we have representation in sculpture like funeral effigies where we could expect more reliable proportions?
There is indeed at least one example, a statue from an unkrainian king holding a poleaxe. Google "Somogyvar Abtei / Statue des heiligen König László" or "Szent Laszlo Somogyvár", and you should find it pretty quick.
2:24 Is that Ian on the very left?
No
What never gets mentioned, afaik is how thick the blades were in relation to woof working axes.
Matt how thin is the blade 20 mm from the cutting edge away? I guess 2 mm?
"woof working"??? :P
@@thhseeking oh
sawed off pollaxe, the late medieval sawed off.
Could the shaft of the poleaxe be reverse engineered by determining the virtual balance point?
considering the existence of the shorter pollaxes, dont you think those sword hammer things you experimented with with tod might be for similar/the same uses, in a non duelling context?
Question: are halberd and poleaxe the same kind of weapon?
god I fucking love pollaxes. where's my pollaxe class? :(
12:28 So as a principle, we should all focus on the head and not the shaft? Copy that!
I wonder if there is any survival bias at play here. Did the examples survive because they were either the wrong weight so didn't go into battle, or heavy enough to make it through till today. I doubt it but it should be considered.
Had the same thought. Probably only better looking and perhaps less practical ones survive. Like today imagining every child soldier had a golden AK47 and a golden desert eagle because only warlord weapons tend to be put into museums.
That's a very large tin opener
Your axe is the long height in paintings
Alot of the ones from the Met seem to be on the heavier end of the scale.
Leave it to a Brit to use the metric system but still give his height in feet and inches. But when giving an imperial conversion for the weight of a polearm, to give it to you in grams....as though anyone measures something so large in grams.
Ok, my mind goes weird again; what about flamethrowers or flameshooters, they would have been very effective in the heavy plate armour era. Heating up the sheet metal with a torch or flameshooting apparatus would have been uncomfortable at least when wearing full armour. Just a thought on weird and uncomfortable battle tactics.
If you mention imperial measurements for Americans, I’ve lived all over the country, and no one says ounces for weight. It would be, for example, 5.4 pounds. Hopefully, some century we will actually switch to metric.
19:36 Wasn't there a guy nodding along too?
👍🏿🤠👍🏿
Awesome video Matt!
You got me to thinking about how TV shows poleaxes at about 3m tall. Are thise even real; is that Hollywood; or is that mostly decoration?
Thanks. I think you might be thinking of halberds, which are longer.
FOR THE ALGORITHM!!!!
I'm waiting for my pizza to arrive. so hungry
*knight walks into a sword smith shop
Swordsmith: so do you want a beak or a hammer on the back of your poleax sir?
Knight: yes.
It your armour lacquered black or paint or what? Just guard bridges like the Monty Python black knight. Coconuts got right past him….
for me a poleaxe should be 2 metres long, enough to make the hammer at the height of your enemy head 180 cm.