Hi, I have taught strings for many years including cello. Your presentation is the best I have seen on UA-cam. Thank you, I'm referring my students to this!
Thanks for a well explained lesson about the bow. I'm an adult who begins to play the cello. Here I found exactly the kind of information I was looking for about holding the bow. Keep up doing lessons for beginners. Thanks so much.
Thank you very much. This is 'gold dust' and goes towards explaining how and why great players sound so much better even when they play simple stuff. Its all about the small things
By watching your video, I received, at long last, an orderly explanation that completely demystifies the cello bow hold. And your advice works. The metal of the frog had been interfering with my thumb--the bottom of my thumb had been rubbing against it--and I couldn't figure out the solution. Your video offered a clue: it seems I had not been pronating enough. I love the way pronation, as you describe it, delivers the weight of the arm onto the strings and maintains the pressure and friction required for a good tone. You so beautifully describe and illustrate the lever-like action of the index finger and the thumb. How artful! Your video on the cello bow hold is so good I've watched it over and over again in the hope that your advice will become indelible and second nature. How lucky your students are! I tell you, if I lived in Houston, I'd be one of your in-person students. I will avidly watch any other video you are generous enough to make. Thank you so much, Maki.
I have played cello for 7 years. Long enough to feel comfortable with it and to make sounds that I enjoy. Unfortunately, I was first taught how to play a cello using a violin-esc bowhold; something that has come back to bite me today as I realize more and more how my tone and posture has been degraded as a result. I am no longer being formally educated on how to play the cello, but it's still the most valuable form of self-expression that I have, so I came here to "relearn" the cello. To say the least, your video has been extremely informative. It's articulate, it goes through the effort to explain some of the reasoning and physics behind the practice, and it's much more in-depth than any other source I've seen so far. Thank you.
It took me almost a year to understand how important this video is. I thought I know the basic bow hold, but when I bought my first Cello I noticed that I don’t. It’s a good Cello but I can’t make it sound good. So I relearn every thing from the very beginning, trying to figure out where the problem is. And I found this video is so precious that not only answered all my questions but also clearly demonstrated how to correct and what to look for during practice. Now, every day before I practice, I watch this video again to make sure what to looking for during my practice. It’s so helpful and I wish I understand this earlier.
thank you so much! I watched all the videos in this crush course and found them extremely helpful. Due to an earlier injury my right hand fingers are not as normal and I have always found bow hold being one of the most uncomfortable things in cello playing. Going through all the points you mentioned and now my right hand is a lot more relaxed.
Thank you for this excellent video! After playing cello for 60 years, arthritis in my bow thumb made it almost unbearable to play. I recently had right thumb CMC arthroplasty, and the pain is gone. Now I'm excited to use your suggestions to develop a better bow hold as I rebuild my hand strength so I can enjoy playing pain free.
Great lesson, as I just started to learn playing cello and my hand hurts probably caused by the wrong bow hold. Thank you for the very detailed explanation!❤
This was really, really valuable as someone who just picked up a Cello for the first time. I am/was way too tense, and generally just doing it all wrong
Thank you - I watched your video and another as intro to better bowing after playing for 20+years. Found that I really need to improve! BUT neither video address "long arms". Setting the end pin makes a major difference in bowing for long arms. Both videos did not mention this. At my normal setting, I found I can not extend my elbow to achieve an almost straight arm. My arm is still bent! So I shortened my end pin and could do it better. So - for 20+ years perhaps I have set my end pin incorrectly which of course affects my bowing and arm extension!!!
Wonderful tutorial! Thank you for your detailed explanations. For future videos, could you please address bow angles and consistently drawing a straight bow (particularly on the C string) ? Do you tilt the bow upwards or aim to keep the stick directly over the hair?
Thanks for the response! I'll be addressing that in the next vid, but I'll answer directly here first - personally, I think the flatness of the hair shouldn't affect the straightness of the bow. I adjust the hair angle constantly depending on the sound I want to get. Flat hair is best for big sustained sound or handling strokes that use full arm weight (like punching out the opening chords in Dvorak Concerto on all 3 strings without breaking or rolling them). I use side hair to maintain the core of the sound while using light arm weight, often in classical or baroque music, on most types of off the string strokes, sometimes to get the C string to speak quickly enough on fast bow strokes (like opening of Mendelssohn Octet), etc. In terms of keeping the bow straight on the C string, it should be possible without altering the hair angle if you bring the hand back towards your hip and bend the wrist enough. Hope that might clarify some things.. I'll explain more soon!
Really hoping this will help. Having played viola for 20 years (and having to give up because of upper back & shoulder pain) I'm really struggling to adapt my bow hold - but your showing that it's OK to pronate when playing from middle to tip am feeling a bit more optimistic that the difference may not be so huge as I feared !
Thank you for the detailed instructions!! Would love to see how you adjust your thumb as you draw the bow from frog to tip. Personally, I have a quite straight thumb at the frog, while at the tip, my thumb would bent more so as to balance the weight needed. Also, what are your thoughts on preventing thumb from slipping out of position?
Hi Leijing, thanks for the interesting thoughts! My understanding from a pedagogical perspective is that the thumb should stay bent at all times, regardless of where we are in the bow. However many of the greatest cellists alive regularly play with a straight thumb, so it's not my place to tell you if that's right or wrong. My personal reasons for the bent thumb are: 1. it allows flexibility in the joints, which is required for fast and off the string strokes, as well as smooth bow changes at the frog 2. Flexible fingers "stick" to the bow, so the thumb will stay in place (so there isn't any adjustment or slipping necessary) 3. If you straighten the thumb out all the way, you'll feel some tension in the palm - this is because anatomically, you have to contract your muscles to straighten the thumb. My strategy has been to make all default positions on the cello mimic the resting positions of the human body whenever possible. One last thought - sometimes the thumb can slip out of position if you pronate using the fingertips as a pivot point rather than the middle of the finger (resting on the top of the stick), since it can cause the hand to crawl up the bow when it returns to the square position. What do you think?
@@DoublestopMusic hello, Marki, i totally agree with the bent thumb idea. It makes more sense and feels natural. But as a personal experience, i do feel like bent a bit more at the tip of the bow, which could be the result of pressing too hard as well as keeping the flat bow hair. I will keep exploring on that. The reason why i said earlier about the straight thumb at the frog is that once i was taught to title the bow at the frog so as to make the bow change smooth, an idea i actually no longer adopt. After having read your comment, i went practicing and observed my thumb, which is surprisingly still bent even at the frog, but only slightly. While intentionally practicing the upper half of bow, using etude like Duport no. 7 in g minor with separate bow at the tip, i still feel tension in the thumb and first finger. Would appreciate it if you could perhaps make a video on practicing the upper part of the bow with an etude. But anyway, the information you’ve put in this video is already very helpful. Thank you!!
What a Woooonderful MASTERclass! How precious chance to get an essential principals from a great cellist like you at home! I want to send a huge thanks to you and pleeease keep doing this project! It is treasure! And I'm just curious about that are you have a plan to give some private lessons via Zoom/Skype or something? Actually I'm a cello student who are living in S.Korea and I'm kind of struggling at some points of the cello playing which you mentioned in the videos. What I found at your website is that you started cello quite lately, which was high school period, and I dare say you I have similar experience. I'm in DMA course in Korea right now. And I started cello at the age of 17, but most of time, I learned a cello by self taught and I think that made myself to a cellist who has a lot of bad habits and lack of technique on both part of the arm.. I'm sure I'm not in a level to receive certain lessons from the great cellist like you, but I'm seeking for long time to have some serious advice from a great player/teacher like you. It will be so great if you have a mind to give some online courses. I can easily guess your so busy, but if you give me some minute, that will be a huge honor and I posted my playing video below, which is very recent video of mine, hope that will help you to know about me some more. Thank you very much! ua-cam.com/video/HMVMlrwf7A8/v-deo.html&ab_channel=SeongWooKim
Hi Seong Woo, send me an email on my website and I'll get in touch with you! You are a very strong cellist and I would be very happy to get to know you. Thanks, Maki
I have been recovering from a case of frozen shoulder in my right shoulder. I rented a cello last week just for fun. I’ve also had 3 surgeries on my right wrist. I also play the violin and piano. I’ve recently played around a little with the harp and mandolin. Due to my wrist surgeries I’ve had to work hard to NOT drop my violin bow. I have to compensate differently on different strings. Yay. On the cello, I don’t seem to have trouble holding the bow or drawing it across the string. It’s just hard on my shoulder. Maybe I haven’t gotten the instrument positioned well, because it’s difficult for me to draw a whole bow on the D and A strings. Those are also the most difficult due to my shoulder. Should I kind of push my right shoulder forward to reach around the cello? As it is I can’t use the entire bow on the D and A strings. So far I’ve just been practicing bowing on open strings and changing strings smoothly. (My old violin teacher drilled bowing exercises into my head so I’m not going to be happy until I understand this) I can’t practice for more than 1/2 hour per instrument due to my arm issues, with the cello being the most challenging.
So sorry to hear about the frozen shoulder! Unfortunately from what I've seen with my colleagues who have suffered it, it's hard to play very much without treating the condition first. The bow arm just requires too much rotator cuff strength endurance... I think good technique can help prevent it, but there isn't necessarily a technique that will allow much playing while it is inflamed. Wishing you the best of luck on your PT and recovery!!
@@DoublestopMusic thank you! Yes, playing is hard. I did go through treatment and have good range of motion but I doubt it will ever be pain free. I will do as you suggest and work hard on technique. When I was in school my violin teacher made me spend untold hours bowing open strings so I figure I will start there for short durations and hopefully build up from there. Surprisingly my old violin technique helps. Other than that I really like the cello. I love its sound. Fortunately I’m nowhere near a professional so I can take my time. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
Hi Maki! And thanks so much for a great video in explaining the bow hold! One comment I have would be that where reference is given to the thumb, would it be possible to actually show the thumb position on the video? It would be a good visual, and really help when it is always hidden (technical reasons considered of course) when you are explaining it on the video.
A very informative video. I plan on learning the cello in May, other commitments will end then allowing time and energy for it. I play guitar and have a range of exercises for my hands and fingers when off the instrument. Are there any suggestions or exercises you can give so I can start to develop my right arm before I take up the cello?
Hi Michael, unfortunately all the exercises I give with the right hand use the bow itself, but I also don't find it necessary for adults to develop bow hand strength before getting the instrument. You're more than likely to have enough strength and dexterity to begin learning. I'd just recommend finding a good teacher for at least a few weeks or months to make sure you get set up properly!
Thank you SO MUCH for sharing your abundant knowledge. I'm an adult student who just started weekly lessons one month ago. What I lack in young brain plasticity, I make up for with older brain determination. ;) Your teaching style is so relaxed and kind and replete with useful tips and explanations. Please keep at it! I do have a question (and it may cause controversy). I do feel that the challenges of taking on a stringed (and fretless, to boot!) instrument could easily lead to repetitive motion injuries in an adult student if he/she isn't mindful about gripping the bow, maintaining positions on the neck, etc. I found something called Wada Bow on Amazon. It's a rubber "cheater," I suppose you'd call it; it attaches to the bow, straddling over the stick at the point where you would rest your grip. It helps me maintain an eased, rounded bow grip and takes the pressure off my thumb and grip. I was curious how you feel about using such devices, or even if you're familiar with the Wada? Even if I played in an orchestra, I could see myself using it. But I don't think that's in my future. ;) Again, thanks for all you do. Laurel
Hi Laurel, thank you for the kind words! I've never used Wada but if it helps you develop a bow hold, I say go ahead and try it. However I'd try to wean myself off of it fairly quickly, as the whole point is to develop the strength necessary to support the arm weight on the bow and control it. Relying on it for too long will result in other problems from undevelopment - just like relying on a posture brace could weaken your core muscles! Repetitive motion injury is always a risk with any instrument, but building strength and stamina is a form of protection as well.
Several years ago I had such pain in my right hand, around my thumb, that I thought I would have to stop playing. I got a little cellophant--an ingenious glob of squish in the shape of an elephant which helped tremendously--to the point where I can play without pain. I am afraid to take it off even though it looks utterly ridiculous. However it definitely adds weight. Any experience or advice on this or any other cushion?
Hi Peg, the Cellophant is a great tool but as you probably know, it was designed for young people who don't yet have the finger strength to hold the bow properly. Since its weight completely messes with the sound and balance of the bow, it's not advisable to keep it on longer than necessary. I might suggest asking your local luthier to add rubber tubing to your bow instead, which is a fairly common thing to do even for professional. And if your thumb hurts, please check if you are squeezing (as opposed to having the thumb supported)! A lot of us forget to release the thumb near the frog. Best of luck!
This is really helpful! I can feel the difference in sound already. Now, for the problem: I experience a little "jiggle", "vibration," or "shake" in the middle of the bow, only on downbows. Should I pronate sooner? I'd love to fix this! Thanks in advance.
Hi Mr. Morrison, usually bow shakes are caused by the introduction of some sort of unintentional "half lifting" of the bow off the string with the fingers, almost always in quiet dynamics and a slow bow. The remedy is to train the fingers, particularly the index finger and thumb to sit and support without accidentally pulling up on the stick. If you are caught mid performance with a hopping bow, you can try two things to allow the shake to dissipate naturally: tilt the bow hair onto the side to cushion the bounce, and lift up the first finger (removing all arm weight from the bow). I hope that might give you somewhere to start to find the cause!!
@@DoublestopMusic Thanks so very much. Christmas in September! I experimented with a very, very slight tilt at the spot on the downbow where the "hopping" occurred. It's gone, and the motion is so small it's almost imperceptible. Thanks again!
Thank you for the detailed explanation. What are your thoughts on moving the bow hand slightly inward for younger students as a means of reducing the bow weight?
Hi San, that's an option I've seen teachers use with young students who can't yet support the bow, and it certainly helps make the bow feel lighter... but there's a limit to how long you can do that. Another option is to spend the use only the lower half of the bow until some stamina is developed, since the bow essentially balances itself on the string. If the fingers aren't strong enough yet to sustain a bow hold, items like the Cellophant seem to help quite a bit.
Hello! First of all, wonderful videos, I'm really glad I found them :) Could you maybe explain a bit more about the bow change at the tip and the frog, how to maintain the best sound during the change?
Don’t forget to stress keeping the bow parallel to the floor..or 1 inch above the bridge as you draw the bow across the string. Someone suggested to me that you make a “rainbow” with your motion.
Thank you for being available to questions. I have two. I was taught that my wrist leads on the up bow in an elevated position, but you say to keep the wrist flat. Also, when I pronate, I can either lean into the bow with my index finger resting on the second joint, or pronate further so that the bow rests just past the second joint (closer to the bottom of the finger). Could you tell me which of these is correct? Thank you!
Hi Marla, thanks for the question! This depends on who you ask, but I will tell you what I do. If I need to put my entire arm weight into the upbow and sustain with a big sound, my wrist stays pretty flat and strong. If I'm using a light fast bow, my wrist does float up as a result of it being light and loose... so it just depends on the what you're playing. Most of the time you won't need to sustain with 100% of your weight. Where the index finger lands when pronating is unique to the size and shape of your hand. However, no matter your hand shape I'd make sure not to pass the 2nd joint (towards the palm). Personally when pronating my index finger lands between the outer two joints (since my middle finger is on the 2nd joint).
Hi I have a question regarding the bow hair direction. Is the bow hair facing outside a little bit? My right hand fingers are sitting on the side ledge instead of middle ledge. Is it correct?
There is no "right" bowhold, but I'll speak to what I'm trying to demonstrate in the video. For the hair, it's totally normal for it to be tilted a little to the inside (facing you) edge, and we do that most of the time we play. However when trying to get full power (in this vid) it's best to have it totally flat on the string. Same thing with the hand - if you are using flat hair you will want to feel the hand sitting on the top. If using side hair, the hand weight will lean slightly more into the side of the bow, and that's totally normal. However if the hand is completely on the side that might be a problem as you'll struggle to channel your arm weight into the bow.
A final question added to below. Are you actually applying pressure with the index finger when you pronate to get a bigger sound, or is the index finger just meant to sit on the bow when pronating? Thanks again!
The index finger sits! Don't squeeze down with it normally. The exception is when you need to bite the string in a specific way and do a quick "pinch" with the thumb and index at the start of a stroke... like in some Sevcik etudes.
Thanks for sharing! I am struggling a bit cause I can't seem to put the arm weight to the bow, so my lateral deltoid gets fatigued really really fast ... I tried multiple positions already, but still no luck :/
Hi Felipe, the deltoid will certainly tire out if you never sit the bow down (please make sure to take a break as soon as it tires out or hurts, or you will risk injury!) Will you do me a favor - check your bow hold and see if you're ever supinated (hand tilted towards the pinky). When this happens it's impossible to get the arm weight into the bow, and you'll be forced to hold your arm weight up. See if you can really mimic the look of the correct square and pronated bow holds... this is easier said than done especially if you already have formed muscle memory, so I recommend using a mirror and staring at the hand constantly while you play. Let me know if this ends up being the problem - if not, we can see what to do next.
@@DoublestopMusic Thank you very much for your reply! I think I am doing it the pronation correctly, and I could play the C and G strings for hours without getting the shoulder fatigued - my only problem is with the D and A strings. I think you nailed when you said that I never sit the bow down, but when I try to use my arm weight, I feel like I am actually applying some force instead of just using my arm weight. I'm probably activating the wrong muscle while playing or something like that 😅🤦♂️ I posted on Reddit yesterday with a short video (www.reddit.com/r/Cello/comments/l403rl/cello_beginner_shoulderdeltoid_fatigue/) - I received some good advices, but I tried everything and I still get tired after 20 minutes or so :( I will keep trying - I really don't want to give up :) Btw, I hope you keep doing this awesome videos, they are really helpful!
@@felipecoraine699 Thanks for the video! I'd like to ask you to try these things: 1. Draw all your bows using the upper arm + scapula, rather than just swinging the forearm back and forth (you'll notice in the video sometimes your upper arm stays frozen). For downbows, imagine you're pulling a heavy door open. You will notice you use the muscles around the scapula - use those to pull the bow to the right. This will guarantee upper arm involvement. 2. For upbows you NEED to drop your elbow down all the way (like the balloon analogy in the video)... in your video, your elbow stays suspended a lot. Let your shoulder drop along with it too. This will guarantee upper arm involvement on your upbows. 3. Return all the way to the frog on every upbow. This piece was written with symmetrical bow distribution for this reason. Only use the bottom half of the bow for this piece too. 4. I ask in the video to practice upbows first because learning pronation/arm weight without raising the shoulder is much easier on upbows than downbows. Learn the upbow on the G string, then D, then C, and when it's comfortable, on A. Once that's easy then practice drawing downbows to the tip with arm weight. 5. While the exercises in the video require you to play close to the bridge, play all the pieces in Book 1 right in the middle between the bridge and the fingerboard. You're so close to the bridge that it's encouraging you to push down. (bridge = more weight and slower bow speed needed) This may all take a few weeks, but you're not in any danger of having to quit. Let me know if these change anything!
I wish the online teachers would go into way more detail about how exactly they are supporting the weight of the bow horizontally against gravity. Following advice like this, I find that young students almost always succumb to gravity, with the tip of the bow dropping towards the ground, and the screw of the bow winding up in the palm of their hand, if they don't outright drop it. They often say they have a feeling that they about to drop it, which I understand completely having learned the cello later in life after a career as a viola/violin teacher. I have yet to see a bow hold video that addresses the details of how the bow is being supported. It looks like maybe your middle finger and to some extent ring fingertips are curving underneath the bow to support the weight of it, but you don't say.
Thanks for bringing an interesting point! I can't speak for other teachers, but I have two answers: 1) for young students, I don't let them hold the bow in the air with one hand. Instead, they are to always set the bow on the string with two hands before letting the left one go. This is to instill the idea that the string holds up the bow, not the hand. We don't want them trying to fight gravity at all to begin with. To further that point, only the lower half of the bow is used until Suzuki book two and they develop some finger stability. 2) I withhold certain things from beginning students intentionally in order to prevent the information backfiring later. One of them is the fact that when the bow is at the frog, the pinky subtly counterbalances the weight of the tip. If they follow my earlier point and play for long enough, the body instinctively adjusts and they don't have any fear of dropping the bow. If they actively try to involve the pinky, I found it can end up causing weird side habits that have to be undone later. Hope that answers your concern a bit!
I encounter this so often with beginners especially in a large orchestra class where all instruments learn the fundamentals together. Unfortunately so many young cellists end up with a hybrid violin/cello bow hold that creates problems down the line. I think reminders for cellists to stay in lower part of bow while upper strings play in middle will be helpful. Thanks for your excellent video.
Hi Robert, actually everything about the setup in this video is an attempt to prevent the thumb from needing to squeeze. You can try an exercise to "feel" what it's like to keep the thumb loose - 1. while the bow is sitting on the string, try putting your pinky behind the frog and let go of the thumb entirely so it hangs, and the bow is supported by the pinky instead. Bow back and forth at the lower third, only using the natural weight of the bow on the string. It may sound too light, that's okay. 2. Return the thumb to its normal position but with it only lightly TOUCHING the frog (while still holding the bow with the pinky), and bow the same way. Remember how this feels, how you don't need to squeeze. 3. Now return the pinky to its normal position and gradually let your arm weight return as you bow back and forth, trying to preserve the sensation of having the thumb loose. Having a relaxed thumb at the frog is sort of an exercise in trust, and you may feel like you're about to drop the bow!
Yes - for the lower strings, I can reach the tip without straightening the arm. I do have to reach all the way out on the A string to get to the tip. It's completely dependent on your arm length!
Ive never had a good sound and was told recently to lean my bow on the D and A strings towards the scroll, now its even more scratchy.....Great vid but I give up.
Oh no! Sorry to hear that. Bow definitely should be perpendicular to the string! Other common reasons are too much weight, bowing too close to fingerboard, and there's always the possibility that your equipment is partially to blame! I hope you find someone who knows what they're doing that can help you.
Ive never heard such an elaborate way to explain a bow hold. Much of this did not make any sense and ive been playing cello for a long time. Folks you homd the bow like he says you should but that is it. Yes do not put pressure on your bow and let the weight of the bow and arm do its work.
Hi, I have taught strings for many years including cello. Your presentation is the best I have seen on UA-cam. Thank you, I'm referring my students to this!
agreed ！
Thanks for a well explained lesson about the bow. I'm an adult who begins to play the cello. Here I found exactly the kind of information I was looking for about holding the bow. Keep up doing lessons for beginners. Thanks so much.
Thank you very much. This is 'gold dust' and goes towards explaining how and why great players sound so much better even when they play simple stuff. Its all about the small things
By watching your video, I received, at long last, an orderly explanation that completely demystifies the cello bow hold. And your advice works. The metal of the frog had been interfering with my thumb--the bottom of my thumb had been rubbing against it--and I couldn't figure out the solution. Your video offered a clue: it seems I had not been pronating enough. I love the way pronation, as you describe it, delivers the weight of the arm onto the strings and maintains the pressure and friction required for a good tone. You so beautifully describe and illustrate the lever-like action of the index finger and the thumb. How artful! Your video on the cello bow hold is so good I've watched it over and over again in the hope that your advice will become indelible and second nature. How lucky your students are! I tell you, if I lived in Houston, I'd be one of your in-person students. I will avidly watch any other video you are generous enough to make. Thank you so much, Maki.
I have played cello for 7 years. Long enough to feel comfortable with it and to make sounds that I enjoy. Unfortunately, I was first taught how to play a cello using a violin-esc bowhold; something that has come back to bite me today as I realize more and more how my tone and posture has been degraded as a result. I am no longer being formally educated on how to play the cello, but it's still the most valuable form of self-expression that I have, so I came here to "relearn" the cello. To say the least, your video has been extremely informative. It's articulate, it goes through the effort to explain some of the reasoning and physics behind the practice, and it's much more in-depth than any other source I've seen so far. Thank you.
An absolute masterclass, so simple and so profound, thank you!!
Excellent.
Thank you.
very easy to understand, helpful. Thanks 😊
This is excellent. The aspect of pronation was really well explained. Thank you.
This was so crystal clear !! Thank you so much ! 😊
wow, this is so clearly explained! I kind of learned this during the years, but I will check it if I am doing it correctly now.
Best explanation l have seen and been taught. Very well explained and why!
You are so clear and articulate - thank you!
It took me almost a year to understand how important this video is. I thought I know the basic bow hold, but when I bought my first Cello I noticed that I don’t. It’s a good Cello but I can’t make it sound good. So I relearn every thing from the very beginning, trying to figure out where the problem is. And I found this video is so precious that not only answered all my questions but also clearly demonstrated how to correct and what to look for during practice. Now, every day before I practice, I watch this video again to make sure what to looking for during my practice. It’s so helpful and I wish I understand this earlier.
Thanks Adela! Best of luck!
Thank you!!!! This is excellent !!!
I find this very helpfull, thanks for sharing 😊
thank you so much! I watched all the videos in this crush course and found them extremely helpful. Due to an earlier injury my right hand fingers are not as normal and I have always found bow hold being one of the most uncomfortable things in cello playing. Going through all the points you mentioned and now my right hand is a lot more relaxed.
Excellent explanation! Thank you.
Thank you for this excellent video! After playing cello for 60 years, arthritis in my bow thumb made it almost unbearable to play. I recently had right thumb CMC arthroplasty, and the pain is gone. Now I'm excited to use your suggestions to develop a better bow hold as I rebuild my hand strength so I can enjoy playing pain free.
This is all fantastic. I need to really work on the ideas that you presented. Thanks for the inspiration!
Wow!!!! Your tutorials are awesome!!!! GOOD TEACHER!!!!
Great lesson, as I just started to learn playing cello and my hand hurts probably caused by the wrong bow hold. Thank you for the very detailed explanation!❤
❤best
As a violinist teaching cello I found this tutorial really helpful Thanks
This was really, really valuable as someone who just picked up a Cello for the first time. I am/was way too tense, and generally just doing it all wrong
I would love to see a photo or video showing the thumb side of your bow hand. I struggle with pain in the MP joint where the thumb joins the hand.
This was a great lesson. Thank you.❤
Thank you - I watched your video and another as intro to better bowing after playing for 20+years. Found that I really need to improve! BUT neither video address "long arms". Setting the end pin makes a major difference in bowing for long arms. Both videos did not mention this. At my normal setting, I found I can not extend my elbow to achieve an almost straight arm. My arm is still bent! So I shortened my end pin and could do it better. So - for 20+ years perhaps I have set my end pin incorrectly which of course affects my bowing and arm extension!!!
Great video, very helpful, thank you!
great lesson. How about a string pressure? I found it very hard to apply pressure on a string, particularly at bow tip.
I think this might have really helped me, thank you! As long as I can remember the techniques when I’m also trying to play the piece! So far so good!
Wonderful tutorial! Thank you for your detailed explanations. For future videos, could you please address bow angles and consistently drawing a straight bow (particularly on the C string) ? Do you tilt the bow upwards or aim to keep the stick directly over the hair?
Thanks for the response! I'll be addressing that in the next vid, but I'll answer directly here first - personally, I think the flatness of the hair shouldn't affect the straightness of the bow. I adjust the hair angle constantly depending on the sound I want to get. Flat hair is best for big sustained sound or handling strokes that use full arm weight (like punching out the opening chords in Dvorak Concerto on all 3 strings without breaking or rolling them). I use side hair to maintain the core of the sound while using light arm weight, often in classical or baroque music, on most types of off the string strokes, sometimes to get the C string to speak quickly enough on fast bow strokes (like opening of Mendelssohn Octet), etc. In terms of keeping the bow straight on the C string, it should be possible without altering the hair angle if you bring the hand back towards your hip and bend the wrist enough. Hope that might clarify some things.. I'll explain more soon!
This is extremely helpful!! I have struggled with bow hold for years and and hopefully this will eliminate problems and create a good hold and sound
Informative and helpful
Great instruction
Really hoping this will help. Having played viola for 20 years (and having to give up because of upper back & shoulder pain) I'm really struggling to adapt my bow hold - but your showing that it's OK to pronate when playing from middle to tip am feeling a bit more optimistic that the difference may not be so huge as I feared !
Thank you!
Thank you for the detailed instructions!! Would love to see how you adjust your thumb as you draw the bow from frog to tip. Personally, I have a quite straight thumb at the frog, while at the tip, my thumb would bent more so as to balance the weight needed. Also, what are your thoughts on preventing thumb from slipping out of position?
Hi Leijing, thanks for the interesting thoughts! My understanding from a pedagogical perspective is that the thumb should stay bent at all times, regardless of where we are in the bow. However many of the greatest cellists alive regularly play with a straight thumb, so it's not my place to tell you if that's right or wrong. My personal reasons for the bent thumb are: 1. it allows flexibility in the joints, which is required for fast and off the string strokes, as well as smooth bow changes at the frog 2. Flexible fingers "stick" to the bow, so the thumb will stay in place (so there isn't any adjustment or slipping necessary) 3. If you straighten the thumb out all the way, you'll feel some tension in the palm - this is because anatomically, you have to contract your muscles to straighten the thumb. My strategy has been to make all default positions on the cello mimic the resting positions of the human body whenever possible. One last thought - sometimes the thumb can slip out of position if you pronate using the fingertips as a pivot point rather than the middle of the finger (resting on the top of the stick), since it can cause the hand to crawl up the bow when it returns to the square position. What do you think?
@@DoublestopMusic hello, Marki, i totally agree with the bent thumb idea. It makes more sense and feels natural. But as a personal experience, i do feel like bent a bit more at the tip of the bow, which could be the result of pressing too hard as well as keeping the flat bow hair. I will keep exploring on that. The reason why i said earlier about the straight thumb at the frog is that once i was taught to title the bow at the frog so as to make the bow change smooth, an idea i actually no longer adopt. After having read your comment, i went practicing and observed my thumb, which is surprisingly still bent even at the frog, but only slightly.
While intentionally practicing the upper half of bow, using etude like Duport no. 7 in g minor with separate bow at the tip, i still feel tension in the thumb and first finger. Would appreciate it if you could perhaps make a video on practicing the upper part of the bow with an etude. But anyway, the information you’ve put in this video is already very helpful. Thank you!!
How do I place the thumb and correct position for bow graving??
What a Woooonderful MASTERclass!
How precious chance to get an essential principals from a great cellist like you at home!
I want to send a huge thanks to you and pleeease keep doing this project! It is treasure!
And I'm just curious about that are you have a plan to give some private lessons via Zoom/Skype or something?
Actually I'm a cello student who are living in S.Korea and I'm kind of struggling at some points of the cello playing which you mentioned in the videos.
What I found at your website is that you started cello quite lately, which was high school period, and I dare say you I have similar experience.
I'm in DMA course in Korea right now. And I started cello at the age of 17, but most of time, I learned a cello by self taught and I think that made myself to a cellist who has a lot of bad habits and lack of technique on both part of the arm..
I'm sure I'm not in a level to receive certain lessons from the great cellist like you, but I'm seeking for long time to have some serious advice from a great player/teacher like you. It will be so great if you have a mind to give some online courses.
I can easily guess your so busy, but if you give me some minute, that will be a huge honor and I posted my playing video below, which is very recent video of mine, hope that will help you to know about me some more.
Thank you very much!
ua-cam.com/video/HMVMlrwf7A8/v-deo.html&ab_channel=SeongWooKim
Hi Seong Woo, send me an email on my website and I'll get in touch with you! You are a very strong cellist and I would be very happy to get to know you. Thanks, Maki
I have been recovering from a case of frozen shoulder in my right shoulder. I rented a cello last week just for fun. I’ve also had 3 surgeries on my right wrist.
I also play the violin and piano. I’ve recently played around a little with the harp and mandolin.
Due to my wrist surgeries I’ve had to work hard to NOT drop my violin bow. I have to compensate differently on different strings. Yay.
On the cello, I don’t seem to have trouble holding the bow or drawing it across the string. It’s just hard on my shoulder.
Maybe I haven’t gotten the instrument positioned well, because it’s difficult for me to draw a whole bow on the D and A strings. Those are also the most difficult due to my shoulder.
Should I kind of push my right shoulder forward to reach around the cello? As it is I can’t use the entire bow on the D and A strings.
So far I’ve just been practicing bowing on open strings and changing strings smoothly. (My old violin teacher drilled bowing exercises into my head so I’m not going to be happy until I understand this)
I can’t practice for more than 1/2 hour per instrument due to my arm issues, with the cello being the most challenging.
So sorry to hear about the frozen shoulder! Unfortunately from what I've seen with my colleagues who have suffered it, it's hard to play very much without treating the condition first. The bow arm just requires too much rotator cuff strength endurance... I think good technique can help prevent it, but there isn't necessarily a technique that will allow much playing while it is inflamed. Wishing you the best of luck on your PT and recovery!!
@@DoublestopMusic thank you! Yes, playing is hard. I did go through treatment and have good range of motion but I doubt it will ever be pain free. I will do as you suggest and work hard on technique.
When I was in school my violin teacher made me spend untold hours bowing open strings so I figure I will start there for short durations and hopefully build up from there. Surprisingly my old violin technique helps.
Other than that I really like the cello. I love its sound.
Fortunately I’m nowhere near a professional so I can take my time. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
Hi Maki! And thanks so much for a great video in explaining the bow hold! One comment I have would be that where reference is given to the thumb, would it be possible to actually show the thumb position on the video? It would be a good visual, and really help when it is always hidden (technical reasons considered of course) when you are explaining it on the video.
A very informative video. I plan on learning the cello in May, other commitments will end then allowing time and energy for it. I play guitar and have a range of exercises for my hands and fingers when off the instrument. Are there any suggestions or exercises you can give so I can start to develop my right arm before I take up the cello?
Hi Michael, unfortunately all the exercises I give with the right hand use the bow itself, but I also don't find it necessary for adults to develop bow hand strength before getting the instrument. You're more than likely to have enough strength and dexterity to begin learning. I'd just recommend finding a good teacher for at least a few weeks or months to make sure you get set up properly!
Thank you SO MUCH for sharing your abundant knowledge. I'm an adult student who just started weekly lessons one month ago. What I lack in young brain plasticity, I make up for with older brain determination. ;)
Your teaching style is so relaxed and kind and replete with useful tips and explanations. Please keep at it!
I do have a question (and it may cause controversy). I do feel that the challenges of taking on a stringed (and fretless, to boot!) instrument could easily lead to repetitive motion injuries in an adult student if he/she isn't mindful about gripping the bow, maintaining positions on the neck, etc.
I found something called Wada Bow on Amazon. It's a rubber "cheater," I suppose you'd call it; it attaches to the bow, straddling over the stick at the point where you would rest your grip. It helps me maintain an eased, rounded bow grip and takes the pressure off my thumb and grip. I was curious how you feel about using such devices, or even if you're familiar with the Wada? Even if I played in an orchestra, I could see myself using it.
But I don't think that's in my future. ;)
Again, thanks for all you do.
Laurel
Hi Laurel, thank you for the kind words! I've never used Wada but if it helps you develop a bow hold, I say go ahead and try it. However I'd try to wean myself off of it fairly quickly, as the whole point is to develop the strength necessary to support the arm weight on the bow and control it. Relying on it for too long will result in other problems from undevelopment - just like relying on a posture brace could weaken your core muscles! Repetitive motion injury is always a risk with any instrument, but building strength and stamina is a form of protection as well.
Several years ago I had such pain in my right hand, around my thumb, that I thought I would have to stop playing. I got a little cellophant--an ingenious glob of squish in the shape of an elephant which helped tremendously--to the point where I can play without pain. I am afraid to take it off even though it looks utterly ridiculous. However it definitely adds weight. Any experience or advice on this or any other cushion?
Hi Peg, the Cellophant is a great tool but as you probably know, it was designed for young people who don't yet have the finger strength to hold the bow properly. Since its weight completely messes with the sound and balance of the bow, it's not advisable to keep it on longer than necessary. I might suggest asking your local luthier to add rubber tubing to your bow instead, which is a fairly common thing to do even for professional. And if your thumb hurts, please check if you are squeezing (as opposed to having the thumb supported)! A lot of us forget to release the thumb near the frog. Best of luck!
This is really helpful! I can feel the difference in sound already. Now, for the problem: I experience a little "jiggle", "vibration," or "shake" in the middle of the bow, only on downbows. Should I pronate sooner? I'd love to fix this! Thanks in advance.
Hi Mr. Morrison, usually bow shakes are caused by the introduction of some sort of unintentional "half lifting" of the bow off the string with the fingers, almost always in quiet dynamics and a slow bow. The remedy is to train the fingers, particularly the index finger and thumb to sit and support without accidentally pulling up on the stick. If you are caught mid performance with a hopping bow, you can try two things to allow the shake to dissipate naturally: tilt the bow hair onto the side to cushion the bounce, and lift up the first finger (removing all arm weight from the bow). I hope that might give you somewhere to start to find the cause!!
@@DoublestopMusic Thanks so very much. Christmas in September! I experimented with a very, very slight tilt at the spot on the downbow where the "hopping" occurred. It's gone, and the motion is so small it's almost imperceptible. Thanks again!
Thank you for the detailed explanation. What are your thoughts on moving the bow hand slightly inward for younger students as a means of reducing the bow weight?
Hi San, that's an option I've seen teachers use with young students who can't yet support the bow, and it certainly helps make the bow feel lighter... but there's a limit to how long you can do that. Another option is to spend the use only the lower half of the bow until some stamina is developed, since the bow essentially balances itself on the string. If the fingers aren't strong enough yet to sustain a bow hold, items like the Cellophant seem to help quite a bit.
Hello! First of all, wonderful videos, I'm really glad I found them :) Could you maybe explain a bit more about the bow change at the tip and the frog, how to maintain the best sound during the change?
Definitely! I'll approach that topic in one of the next few vids in this series. Thanks for the feedback!
Don’t forget to stress keeping the bow parallel to the floor..or 1 inch above the bridge as you draw the bow across the string. Someone suggested to me that you make a “rainbow” with your motion.
Thank you for being available to questions. I have two. I was taught that my wrist leads on the up bow in an elevated position, but you say to keep the wrist flat. Also, when I pronate, I can either lean into the bow with my index finger resting on the second joint, or pronate further so that the bow rests just past the second joint (closer to the bottom of the finger). Could you tell me which of these is correct? Thank you!
Hi Marla, thanks for the question! This depends on who you ask, but I will tell you what I do. If I need to put my entire arm weight into the upbow and sustain with a big sound, my wrist stays pretty flat and strong. If I'm using a light fast bow, my wrist does float up as a result of it being light and loose... so it just depends on the what you're playing. Most of the time you won't need to sustain with 100% of your weight. Where the index finger lands when pronating is unique to the size and shape of your hand. However, no matter your hand shape I'd make sure not to pass the 2nd joint (towards the palm). Personally when pronating my index finger lands between the outer two joints (since my middle finger is on the 2nd joint).
Hi I have a question regarding the bow hair direction. Is the bow hair facing outside a little bit? My right hand fingers are sitting on the side ledge instead of middle ledge. Is it correct?
There is no "right" bowhold, but I'll speak to what I'm trying to demonstrate in the video. For the hair, it's totally normal for it to be tilted a little to the inside (facing you) edge, and we do that most of the time we play. However when trying to get full power (in this vid) it's best to have it totally flat on the string. Same thing with the hand - if you are using flat hair you will want to feel the hand sitting on the top. If using side hair, the hand weight will lean slightly more into the side of the bow, and that's totally normal. However if the hand is completely on the side that might be a problem as you'll struggle to channel your arm weight into the bow.
A final question added to below. Are you actually applying pressure with the index finger when you pronate to get a bigger sound, or is the index finger just meant to sit on the bow when pronating? Thanks again!
The index finger sits! Don't squeeze down with it normally. The exception is when you need to bite the string in a specific way and do a quick "pinch" with the thumb and index at the start of a stroke... like in some Sevcik etudes.
So helpful! Thanks for taking the time to reply.
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😍😍😍😍😍
My question is why is violist Dan Strba such a great player??? Thx in advance!!
Thanks for sharing! I am struggling a bit cause I can't seem to put the arm weight to the bow, so my lateral deltoid gets fatigued really really fast ... I tried multiple positions already, but still no luck :/
Hi Felipe, the deltoid will certainly tire out if you never sit the bow down (please make sure to take a break as soon as it tires out or hurts, or you will risk injury!) Will you do me a favor - check your bow hold and see if you're ever supinated (hand tilted towards the pinky). When this happens it's impossible to get the arm weight into the bow, and you'll be forced to hold your arm weight up. See if you can really mimic the look of the correct square and pronated bow holds... this is easier said than done especially if you already have formed muscle memory, so I recommend using a mirror and staring at the hand constantly while you play. Let me know if this ends up being the problem - if not, we can see what to do next.
@@DoublestopMusic Thank you very much for your reply! I think I am doing it the pronation correctly, and I could play the C and G strings for hours without getting the shoulder fatigued - my only problem is with the D and A strings. I think you nailed when you said that I never sit the bow down, but when I try to use my arm weight, I feel like I am actually applying some force instead of just using my arm weight. I'm probably activating the wrong muscle while playing or something like that 😅🤦♂️
I posted on Reddit yesterday with a short video (www.reddit.com/r/Cello/comments/l403rl/cello_beginner_shoulderdeltoid_fatigue/) - I received some good advices, but I tried everything and I still get tired after 20 minutes or so :(
I will keep trying - I really don't want to give up :)
Btw, I hope you keep doing this awesome videos, they are really helpful!
@@felipecoraine699 Thanks for the video! I'd like to ask you to try these things:
1. Draw all your bows using the upper arm + scapula, rather than just swinging the forearm back and forth (you'll notice in the video sometimes your upper arm stays frozen). For downbows, imagine you're pulling a heavy door open. You will notice you use the muscles around the scapula - use those to pull the bow to the right. This will guarantee upper arm involvement.
2. For upbows you NEED to drop your elbow down all the way (like the balloon analogy in the video)... in your video, your elbow stays suspended a lot. Let your shoulder drop along with it too. This will guarantee upper arm involvement on your upbows.
3. Return all the way to the frog on every upbow. This piece was written with symmetrical bow distribution for this reason. Only use the bottom half of the bow for this piece too.
4. I ask in the video to practice upbows first because learning pronation/arm weight without raising the shoulder is much easier on upbows than downbows. Learn the upbow on the G string, then D, then C, and when it's comfortable, on A. Once that's easy then practice drawing downbows to the tip with arm weight.
5. While the exercises in the video require you to play close to the bridge, play all the pieces in Book 1 right in the middle between the bridge and the fingerboard. You're so close to the bridge that it's encouraging you to push down. (bridge = more weight and slower bow speed needed)
This may all take a few weeks, but you're not in any danger of having to quit. Let me know if these change anything!
@@DoublestopMusic you are the best! I will give it a try and will let you know! I REALLY REALLY appreciate your help!
I wish the online teachers would go into way more detail about how exactly they are supporting the weight of the bow horizontally against gravity. Following advice like this, I find that young students almost always succumb to gravity, with the tip of the bow dropping towards the ground, and the screw of the bow winding up in the palm of their hand, if they don't outright drop it. They often say they have a feeling that they about to drop it, which I understand completely having learned the cello later in life after a career as a viola/violin teacher. I have yet to see a bow hold video that addresses the details of how the bow is being supported. It looks like maybe your middle finger and to some extent ring fingertips are curving underneath the bow to support the weight of it, but you don't say.
Thanks for bringing an interesting point! I can't speak for other teachers, but I have two answers: 1) for young students, I don't let them hold the bow in the air with one hand. Instead, they are to always set the bow on the string with two hands before letting the left one go. This is to instill the idea that the string holds up the bow, not the hand. We don't want them trying to fight gravity at all to begin with. To further that point, only the lower half of the bow is used until Suzuki book two and they develop some finger stability. 2) I withhold certain things from beginning students intentionally in order to prevent the information backfiring later. One of them is the fact that when the bow is at the frog, the pinky subtly counterbalances the weight of the tip. If they follow my earlier point and play for long enough, the body instinctively adjusts and they don't have any fear of dropping the bow. If they actively try to involve the pinky, I found it can end up causing weird side habits that have to be undone later. Hope that answers your concern a bit!
I encounter this so often with beginners especially in a large orchestra class where all instruments learn the fundamentals together. Unfortunately so many young cellists end up with a hybrid violin/cello bow hold that creates problems down the line. I think reminders for cellists to stay in lower part of bow while upper strings play in middle will be helpful. Thanks for your excellent video.
I tend to be a bit of a ‘gripper’ with the bow and find that i have pain in my thumb. How can I fix this?
Hi Robert, actually everything about the setup in this video is an attempt to prevent the thumb from needing to squeeze. You can try an exercise to "feel" what it's like to keep the thumb loose - 1. while the bow is sitting on the string, try putting your pinky behind the frog and let go of the thumb entirely so it hangs, and the bow is supported by the pinky instead. Bow back and forth at the lower third, only using the natural weight of the bow on the string. It may sound too light, that's okay. 2. Return the thumb to its normal position but with it only lightly TOUCHING the frog (while still holding the bow with the pinky), and bow the same way. Remember how this feels, how you don't need to squeeze. 3. Now return the pinky to its normal position and gradually let your arm weight return as you bow back and forth, trying to preserve the sensation of having the thumb loose. Having a relaxed thumb at the frog is sort of an exercise in trust, and you may feel like you're about to drop the bow!
@@DoublestopMusic thank you so much for the great exercises!! I enjoy your videos very much 😊‼️
Hello, I wanted to make sure - your right arm is never straight on the top of the bow but it has rather "L" shape?
Yes - for the lower strings, I can reach the tip without straightening the arm. I do have to reach all the way out on the A string to get to the tip. It's completely dependent on your arm length!
@@DoublestopMusic Probably less likely to need shoulder surgery if you do not need to stretch at the top of the bow.
Ive never had a good sound and was told recently to lean my bow on the D and A strings towards the scroll, now its even more scratchy.....Great vid but I give up.
Oh no! Sorry to hear that. Bow definitely should be perpendicular to the string! Other common reasons are too much weight, bowing too close to fingerboard, and there's always the possibility that your equipment is partially to blame! I hope you find someone who knows what they're doing that can help you.
All my fingers are in good shape but my pinkie finger is tightening up. If i loosen it, i drop my bow...
Are you talking about holding the bow when it sits on the strings, or holding it in the air/not playing?
Ive never heard such an elaborate way to explain a bow hold. Much of this did not make any sense and ive been playing cello for a long time. Folks you homd the bow like he says you should but that is it. Yes do not put pressure on your bow and let the weight of the bow and arm do its work.
Very helpful video.