If this commentary could reach the developers, pilots don't just say "THREE ZERO ZERO ZERO" when they specify an Altitude. An Angel is every one thousand feet. "ANGELS TWENTY" is 20,000 feet, "ANGELS FORTY" is 40,000 feet, and so on and so forth. I just find it personally annoying hearing the number zero so often.
It is fantastic seeing all the naval youtubers supporting and engaging each other. Look forward to you all swapping scenarios and competing like with the Maru. Hats off to you all.
@@BrotherMunro Just kidding. I know you wrote it. As did Kirk. Thanks for all the great work on Admiral: Dreadnoughts, can't wait to get my hands on this one as well.
Just to provide a bit of info. The Mk-29 is the 8 "cell" launcher for NATO Sea Sparrow on the Spruance Class destroyer. It only holds 8 missiles ready to fire and then must be reloaded manually one "cell" at a time. You fired 8 missiles in four two missile salvos two per Mig. Your initial feeling of the crew desperately reloading after firing all the missiles in the launcher was correct.
Yeah I looked back at this, I did fire too many missiles and the crew started to reload - but for some reason were trying to shove a torpedo into the RIM launcher which… uh yeah I’m assuming that was a bug 😂 hence attempt 3 :)
"It's possible to beat it" he says while: -knowing the approximate position of the submarine and scrambling helicopters immediately -knowing the attack vector for the MIGs -immediately firing on all contacts before positively identifying as hostile -despite blitzing all 8 RIM-7s at the incoming MIGs, still manages to have two vampires launched at him and intercepts neither. The vampires missed the ship by a matter of feet, surviving only by the grace of RNG. Not exactly glowing praise for the mission.
I did say during the video you can absolutely beat the scenario without using fore knowledge and actually doing proper ID’s and such, I did all then when I was testing it, but for a quick video like this, especially one where people seeing it have probably already seen stealth playing it, I didn’t feel the need to maintain the pretence of not knowing what is in the scenario (I did write it after all)
@@BrotherMunro Oh I know you acknowledged it, but it still undercuts the argument the overall video is trying to make. A mission that takes three attempts to beat even by its own author is not a great mission from a gameplay perspective, the margin of error on intercepting those MIGs/Vampires is so tight that there's almost nothing the player can do to mitigate the risk. That's why people are calling it the Kobayashi Maru. What happens happens and the player has little to no agency to affect the outcome.
@@redonesgofaster8020 it's literally a Kobayashi Maru scenario, it's SUPPOSED to be incredibly difficult. If you don't like it, maybe consider making your own.
I am very happy to see you covering this game! Always good to see a Spruance class pop up. I was station on one in the late 90's- early 00's. These ships were not well equipped for AAW warfare at all. lol They were primarily ASW with a side of ASuW. STRIKE got added in the 90's when VLS was installed. Not sure if it is modeled in-game but IIRC there was a range of bearings of the port bow and a very small range off the starboard quarter where both CIWS could engage the same target. It would be worth trying to unmask sparrow and both CIWS vs trying to score 5in hits. For these types of AAW targets 5in is more of an "oh shit!" weapon. In 1988 there was an incident in the Black Sea where the USS Yorktown and Spruance class USS Caron were lightly rammed by soviet frigates. There is a video floating around YT taken from the Caron during the incident. Keep the videos coming! They bring back some memories. lol
For people approaching it with "you should beat it according to the rules" also consider this. -NAVEUR-NAVAF probably has more than a single destroyer -Strategic reconnaissance assets could have noticed the absence of two MIGs in Crimea and Krivyak leaving the port -The captain has the authority to ignore the rules of engagement, at the risk of being court-martialed if his judgment is wrong
21:08 - yeah, the RIM-7 was reloading. The launcher only holds 8 missiles and you used all of them. The reload takes around 30 Minutes (18:38). Mk-29 is the name of the launcher btw (22:24). Your crew didn't try to load a torpedo or anything like that ^^
If you want to increase your PK with the phalanx, put the ship 30 or so degrees to the starboard of the threat axis, facing the threat axis. This way, it will unmask both phalanxes against the missiles. take a look at how the phalanx's fields of fire will overlap.
Important sidenote with the Sea Sparrows: It look like you have only one illumination radar for them, so the launcher can only ever fire at one target at a time. Also, I think what jammed the launcher is the four missile salvo, I don't think you had enough missiles in the launcher for it and because it could not fulfil the order the launcher 'jammed'. Probably worth reporting to the developers to see if it's a bug.
In addition to the 8-missile limit that you have been made aware of, the Spruance class has, if I remember correctly, only one illuminator for Sea Sparrow; meaning that you can only engage one target at a time.
One of the nice things about the way the mission editor works is that you will be able to download this (once the game is out) and quickly do that swap
My only critisism is I think it's more 'valid' if you roleplay it 'properly' the whole way, and also if you can beat it say 7 times out of 10? More than 50% is required in my mind as at 50% it's just pure chance and unless it's a little more than that you're still relying more on luck than skill- being simply 'able' to win while following the orders say 1/10 times isn't good enough, else it really does qualify as a Kobayashi Maru type scenario- if it's only luck that lets you win then it's really still an 'unwinable' scenario since you're not really doing it through skill. In this particular scenario it does seem likely that if you get shot at, thus meeting your ROE to shoot back, you're more likely than not to take a hit. I would maybe suggest modifying the initial breifing to say that you are not authorized to engage in active hostilities but you *are* authorized to protect ownship including shooting first if a contact is clearly acting with hostile intent and is violating your immediate airspace thus meeting your engagement criteria. For me that's kind of the line that decides if it's 'supposed' to be winable or not- if you are not alowed to fire unless fired upon you typically *expect* to take losses in the opening salvo, but you then basically win big geopolitically if you can clearly document and prove it. In this type of scenario where there is a clear threat and you want to player to be able to win I think it makes more sense to explicitly tell them that the goal is not to be shooting if possible (because that *is* quite immersive) but that their primary focus is staying alive and protecting their crew, which I also feel is more generally realistic for a ship's orders Having said that I also don't mind a Kobayshi Maru type scenario- the whole goal is to make the most possible impact in an unwinnable scenario, at least TOS era, by TNG the point has changed somewhat to teaching command staff they must be willing to make sacrifices of *other people's* lives while still being mindful of the value of those lives, in order to make a difference for the greater good which is a pretty cool concept to emulate in sea power, I can imagine setting up a scenario where you *must* sacrifice a frigate to bait wake homers for your carrier as an example. This mission is a pretty great concept, though! I really enjoyed watching Stealth play it and focused missions with a polished concept like this one are great to watch, particularly when they're challenging but do have satisfying solutions
It takes 30 minutes to reload the Sea Sparrows!? That's not ideal, gonna need those improved RIM-7Hs in a jiffy. At any rate, I feel like this scenario would've been viewed in a more positive light if it weren't the fact that too small ASMs somehow caused the entire ship to burn down. And before anyone tries to argue the plausibility of it: The smaller OHP Frigate USS Stark survived a similar attack, O'Brien is much large ship, the missile only hit the auxiliary engine rooms, has a much large crew, all Spruance DDs get kevlar protection refits from 1980-1986, etc . Moving on. I still believe that the Spruance-class is completely out of it's element in this in a scenario like this, a Kidd would preform much better as it has more/better SAMs and can used them in an anti-ship role if need be.
They realy need to make the enemy units have some sort of randomizer when playing the mission. Knowing exactly were the Aloha is doesn’t seem fun. Know the point of this video is to show it’s doable. But I’m thinking of it being playable more then once :)
@@Lfcsweden-n5m The mission editor works with probabilities, you can set a Krivak to spawn with 40% probability, a romeo to 90% and so on, so you''ll get a different set of enemys and allies every time you start the same mission
One thing you can’t do though is say ‘I 100% want a unit here, but what kind is random’. I also haven’t found a position randomiser, although in this mission there is a bit of variability as sometimes the O’Brien detects the alpha on its sonar immediately
Very true but it could have reported your speed and position then gone back to following you (the migs are already in the air and headed for you when the mission starts)
This mission would be more doable with an OHP or one of the newer Spruance with VLS cells. The relative lack of anti air missiles makes this super difficult
I guess there is a fan base for this kind of challenges, but I prefer something where the strategic choices have more relevance than the RNG of the AA lottery.
In ‘89 O’Brien did have a VLS but is was only for Tomahawks, although I do not know if she had B anti ship versions, if it was just for the C TLAM ones it wouldn’t change the scenario much. (She also got a sonar upgrade which might make a small difference)
How many fire control channels does a Spraunce Class have? Did the ship lose control of the first salvo of missiles when you told it to fire the second salvo?
Yeah, I didn't think this was fully a Kobayashi Maru type of scenario, I've seen someone in stealth's comments list out some basic steps one of which is to turn away from the migs to reduce the hull silhouette. This is of course meta knowledge. I think for first time attempts going in blind it is like 99.9% a defeat 0.1% crazy luck. For me the key is what can the player learn through following attempts. Sure you could make a more realistic scenario with CAP and/or escorts but as a mission to focus on the capabilities of one ship then it is a robust scenario.
You can’t argue it’s doable while playing basically with disabled fog of war and ignoring orders. Maybe if you played it while following orders to not engage before fired upon and with randomized starting positions of Alfa and MiGs it would be a better showcase. Player who follows order, has no prior knowledge of the scenario and performs all actions correctly should consistently achieve mission success. If this isn’t the case and you need to pray for some luck chance then it is not a well designed scenario from gameplay perspective.
Well, this scenario is hard mostly becaue currently Kh-23 of this MiGs has punch of P-700 or something of this size and capable completely burning destroyer after one hit while also having some insane accuracy for MLOS missile fired from maximum distance
That is something that can be done, it just feels disingenuous to play that way when I wrote the thing and also it’s following on from Stealth playing it. I was approaching it more from the comments of folks saying it was completely impossible.
@@Zenitchik_130 Royal Navy lost a destroyer to a single Exocet missile hit without its warhead even exploding. Just kinetic impact of the subsonic weapon together with fires started were sufficient. What is the basis of your conviction that a hit of supersonic Kerry with its payload properly exploding must be survivable?
@@BrotherMunro and it still stands that it is impossible to play without prior intelligence and breaking orders. Unless the possibility you refer to is simply getting lucky enough to survive 2 or even 4 Kerry missiles fired by MiGs as per your own rules of engagement you have to wait for them to shoot first? If you keep talking about the possibility please do make the effort to show how plausible it is while also playing by the rules.
If this commentary could reach the developers, pilots don't just say "THREE ZERO ZERO ZERO" when they specify an Altitude. An Angel is every one thousand feet. "ANGELS TWENTY" is 20,000 feet, "ANGELS FORTY" is 40,000 feet, and so on and so forth.
I just find it personally annoying hearing the number zero so often.
Developers have own Discord server
“I love you angels 3” -Tony stank
Awesome Mission concept! Big Trek fan myself :D
😄
It is fantastic seeing all the naval youtubers supporting and engaging each other. Look forward to you all swapping scenarios and competing like with the Maru. Hats off to you all.
Pretty sure he cheated.
@@connycontainer9459 who me? I mean I wrote the scenario which I guess is kinda cheating, but otherwise there’s nothing untoward going on
@@BrotherMunro Just kidding. I know you wrote it. As did Kirk. Thanks for all the great work on Admiral: Dreadnoughts, can't wait to get my hands on this one as well.
Just to provide a bit of info. The Mk-29 is the 8 "cell" launcher for NATO Sea Sparrow on the Spruance Class destroyer. It only holds 8 missiles ready to fire and then must be reloaded manually one "cell" at a time. You fired 8 missiles in four two missile salvos two per Mig. Your initial feeling of the crew desperately reloading after firing all the missiles in the launcher was correct.
Yeah I looked back at this, I did fire too many missiles and the crew started to reload - but for some reason were trying to shove a torpedo into the RIM launcher which… uh yeah I’m assuming that was a bug 😂 hence attempt 3 :)
@@BrotherMunro Probably lol
@@BrotherMunrowhen did that happen? MK-29 is the name of the launcher
"It's possible to beat it" he says while:
-knowing the approximate position of the submarine and scrambling helicopters immediately
-knowing the attack vector for the MIGs
-immediately firing on all contacts before positively identifying as hostile
-despite blitzing all 8 RIM-7s at the incoming MIGs, still manages to have two vampires launched at him and intercepts neither.
The vampires missed the ship by a matter of feet, surviving only by the grace of RNG. Not exactly glowing praise for the mission.
I did say during the video you can absolutely beat the scenario without using fore knowledge and actually doing proper ID’s and such, I did all then when I was testing it, but for a quick video like this, especially one where people seeing it have probably already seen stealth playing it, I didn’t feel the need to maintain the pretence of not knowing what is in the scenario (I did write it after all)
@@BrotherMunro Oh I know you acknowledged it, but it still undercuts the argument the overall video is trying to make. A mission that takes three attempts to beat even by its own author is not a great mission from a gameplay perspective, the margin of error on intercepting those MIGs/Vampires is so tight that there's almost nothing the player can do to mitigate the risk. That's why people are calling it the Kobayashi Maru. What happens happens and the player has little to no agency to affect the outcome.
@@redonesgofaster8020 it's literally a Kobayashi Maru scenario, it's SUPPOSED to be incredibly difficult.
If you don't like it, maybe consider making your own.
The scenario is definitely a challenge, and as I say towards the end the best commanders are lucky
@@harjutapa having prior knowledge and relying on rng is not a good mission design
I am very happy to see you covering this game!
Always good to see a Spruance class pop up. I was station on one in the late 90's- early 00's.
These ships were not well equipped for AAW warfare at all. lol They were primarily ASW with a side of ASuW. STRIKE got added in the 90's when VLS was installed.
Not sure if it is modeled in-game but IIRC there was a range of bearings of the port bow and a very small range off the starboard quarter where both CIWS could engage the same target. It would be worth trying to unmask sparrow and both CIWS vs trying to score 5in hits. For these types of AAW targets 5in is more of an "oh shit!" weapon.
In 1988 there was an incident in the Black Sea where the USS Yorktown and Spruance class USS Caron were lightly rammed by soviet frigates. There is a video floating around YT taken from the Caron during the incident.
Keep the videos coming! They bring back some memories. lol
For people approaching it with "you should beat it according to the rules" also consider this.
-NAVEUR-NAVAF probably has more than a single destroyer
-Strategic reconnaissance assets could have noticed the absence of two MIGs in Crimea and Krivyak leaving the port
-The captain has the authority to ignore the rules of engagement, at the risk of being court-martialed if his judgment is wrong
'The Best Commanders are a Bit Lucky' is paraphrasing Napoleon from memory.
Seems to be often attributed to him, but is actually from another Frenchman - Cardinal Mazarin - as far as I can tell
21:08 - yeah, the RIM-7 was reloading. The launcher only holds 8 missiles and you used all of them.
The reload takes around 30 Minutes (18:38). Mk-29 is the name of the launcher btw (22:24). Your crew didn't try to load a torpedo or anything like that ^^
Ok good! I was expecting to see 8 RIM-7’s being loaded in, not one thing.
Your pronunciation of O'Brien is criminal :D
That said...this was a lot of fun to watch
If you want to increase your PK with the phalanx, put the ship 30 or so degrees to the starboard of the threat axis, facing the threat axis. This way, it will unmask both phalanxes against the missiles. take a look at how the phalanx's fields of fire will overlap.
That remaining Mig has suicidal tendencies and a reluctance to engage the helicopters.
Important sidenote with the Sea Sparrows: It look like you have only one illumination radar for them, so the launcher can only ever fire at one target at a time. Also, I think what jammed the launcher is the four missile salvo, I don't think you had enough missiles in the launcher for it and because it could not fulfil the order the launcher 'jammed'. Probably worth reporting to the developers to see if it's a bug.
Ah ok yes that would make sense. Good spot!
So you are playing the role of James T Kirk in this "No Win" scenario.
It’s really not ‘no win’ 😂
@@BrotherMunro neither was the one in ST when Kirk had a go.
He hacked the simulation and changed the scenario to make winning possible, so I don't think it counts.
In addition to the 8-missile limit that you have been made aware of, the Spruance class has, if I remember correctly, only one illuminator for Sea Sparrow; meaning that you can only engage one target at a time.
Maybe a Kidd-class might of been a better choice, but i guess that would make it too easy.
One of the nice things about the way the mission editor works is that you will be able to download this (once the game is out) and quickly do that swap
My only critisism is I think it's more 'valid' if you roleplay it 'properly' the whole way, and also if you can beat it say 7 times out of 10? More than 50% is required in my mind as at 50% it's just pure chance and unless it's a little more than that you're still relying more on luck than skill- being simply 'able' to win while following the orders say 1/10 times isn't good enough, else it really does qualify as a Kobayashi Maru type scenario- if it's only luck that lets you win then it's really still an 'unwinable' scenario since you're not really doing it through skill. In this particular scenario it does seem likely that if you get shot at, thus meeting your ROE to shoot back, you're more likely than not to take a hit.
I would maybe suggest modifying the initial breifing to say that you are not authorized to engage in active hostilities but you *are* authorized to protect ownship including shooting first if a contact is clearly acting with hostile intent and is violating your immediate airspace thus meeting your engagement criteria. For me that's kind of the line that decides if it's 'supposed' to be winable or not- if you are not alowed to fire unless fired upon you typically *expect* to take losses in the opening salvo, but you then basically win big geopolitically if you can clearly document and prove it. In this type of scenario where there is a clear threat and you want to player to be able to win I think it makes more sense to explicitly tell them that the goal is not to be shooting if possible (because that *is* quite immersive) but that their primary focus is staying alive and protecting their crew, which I also feel is more generally realistic for a ship's orders
Having said that I also don't mind a Kobayshi Maru type scenario- the whole goal is to make the most possible impact in an unwinnable scenario, at least TOS era, by TNG the point has changed somewhat to teaching command staff they must be willing to make sacrifices of *other people's* lives while still being mindful of the value of those lives, in order to make a difference for the greater good which is a pretty cool concept to emulate in sea power, I can imagine setting up a scenario where you *must* sacrifice a frigate to bait wake homers for your carrier as an example.
This mission is a pretty great concept, though! I really enjoyed watching Stealth play it and focused missions with a polished concept like this one are great to watch, particularly when they're challenging but do have satisfying solutions
Thank you! I might make an alternative version with the O’Brien replaced by a Kidd class which should be able to handle things better.
You might want to replace the Krivak-1 in the scenario with a Krivak-2. Krivak-1s carry ASW-only missiles, not the ones that can do both.
Good change, thank you!
It takes 30 minutes to reload the Sea Sparrows!? That's not ideal, gonna need those improved RIM-7Hs in a jiffy. At any rate, I feel like this scenario would've been viewed in a more positive light if it weren't the fact that too small ASMs somehow caused the entire ship to burn down. And before anyone tries to argue the plausibility of it: The smaller OHP Frigate USS Stark survived a similar attack, O'Brien is much large ship, the missile only hit the auxiliary engine rooms, has a much large crew, all Spruance DDs get kevlar protection refits from 1980-1986, etc . Moving on.
I still believe that the Spruance-class is completely out of it's element in this in a scenario like this, a Kidd would preform much better as it has more/better SAMs and can used them in an anti-ship role if need be.
I can easily swap in a Kidd. Sadly I haven’t found a way to let you select this yourself!
They realy need to make the enemy units have some sort of randomizer when playing the mission. Knowing exactly were the Aloha is doesn’t seem fun. Know the point of this video is to show it’s doable. But I’m thinking of it being playable more then once :)
You can do that already in the Mission editor
@ that’s good :)
@@Lfcsweden-n5m The mission editor works with probabilities, you can set a Krivak to spawn with 40% probability, a romeo to 90% and so on, so you''ll get a different set of enemys and allies every time you start the same mission
One thing you can’t do though is say ‘I 100% want a unit here, but what kind is random’. I also haven’t found a position randomiser, although in this mission there is a bit of variability as sometimes the O’Brien detects the alpha on its sonar immediately
@@BrotherMunro You mean you can't say "IF there's a ship, it must be a Krivak", and to 60% there is a ship?
22:31 they are realoading th mk-29 LAUNCHER with sparrows which takes time
Realistically, the Alfa wouldn't be able to direct the MiGs in real time, unless it sat at periscope depth with communications active, would it?
Very true but it could have reported your speed and position then gone back to following you (the migs are already in the air and headed for you when the mission starts)
Once again, I absolutely despise the Sea Sparrow, and frankly if you have to use it, you’re already dead unless you’re unbelievably lucky
This mission would be more doable with an OHP or one of the newer Spruance with VLS cells. The relative lack of anti air missiles makes this super difficult
When the game goes live you’ll be able to play this version or one with a Kidd class
I guess there is a fan base for this kind of challenges, but I prefer something where the strategic choices have more relevance than the RNG of the AA lottery.
The biggest inaccuracy of this scenario is that Spruance-class has been already upgraded in 1989 with 32-cell Mark 41 Vertical Launching System.
In ‘89 O’Brien did have a VLS but is was only for Tomahawks, although I do not know if she had B anti ship versions, if it was just for the C TLAM ones it wouldn’t change the scenario much. (She also got a sonar upgrade which might make a small difference)
Sparrow missiles aren't infra-red guided they shouldn't get spoofed by flares...
How many fire control channels does a Spraunce Class have? Did the ship lose control of the first salvo of missiles when you told it to fire the second salvo?
Try nebulous fleet command, its sea power, but in space, and with same if not more sophisticated radar systems and carrier update coming
I have! Sadly the 3D battlespace and the control scheme the game has and my brain are completely incompatible
@BrotherMunro oh I feel you, tho you get used to it after some time. Learning curve is shallower then dcs definitely.
Yeah, I didn't think this was fully a Kobayashi Maru type of scenario, I've seen someone in stealth's comments list out some basic steps one of which is to turn away from the migs to reduce the hull silhouette.
This is of course meta knowledge. I think for first time attempts going in blind it is like 99.9% a defeat 0.1% crazy luck. For me the key is what can the player learn through following attempts.
Sure you could make a more realistic scenario with CAP and/or escorts but as a mission to focus on the capabilities of one ship then it is a robust scenario.
As an Aircrewman and AW I don't appreciate you using the H2s as decoys lol
Fair 😂
I can't help but feel that CIWS is really underpowered in this game.... or maybe it was really overpowered in Cold Waters... not 100% sure on that.
This is 80’s CWIS not the modern stuff - the increase in compute power on board ships makes a big difference to how good those sorts of systems are
@@BrotherMunro I guess that's a fair point, while the gun may be the same, the computer systems are probably a lot better these days.
Proves the mission is winnable by relaunching several times 🤨
Didn’t say I’d win it immediately! Also the second time was a bug 😅
according to capt kirk you have to cheat to win the kobayashi maru
stupid close miss forsure
You can’t argue it’s doable while playing basically with disabled fog of war and ignoring orders. Maybe if you played it while following orders to not engage before fired upon and with randomized starting positions of Alfa and MiGs it would be a better showcase.
Player who follows order, has no prior knowledge of the scenario and performs all actions correctly should consistently achieve mission success. If this isn’t the case and you need to pray for some luck chance then it is not a well designed scenario from gameplay perspective.
Well, this scenario is hard mostly becaue currently Kh-23 of this MiGs has punch of P-700 or something of this size and capable completely burning destroyer after one hit while also having some insane accuracy for MLOS missile fired from maximum distance
That is something that can be done, it just feels disingenuous to play that way when I wrote the thing and also it’s following on from Stealth playing it. I was approaching it more from the comments of folks saying it was completely impossible.
@@Zenitchik_130 Royal Navy lost a destroyer to a single Exocet missile hit without its warhead even exploding. Just kinetic impact of the subsonic weapon together with fires started were sufficient. What is the basis of your conviction that a hit of supersonic Kerry with its payload properly exploding must be survivable?
@@BrotherMunro and it still stands that it is impossible to play without prior intelligence and breaking orders.
Unless the possibility you refer to is simply getting lucky enough to survive 2 or even 4 Kerry missiles fired by MiGs as per your own rules of engagement you have to wait for them to shoot first?
If you keep talking about the possibility please do make the effort to show how plausible it is while also playing by the rules.
@ can do