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This is an incredible interview. There are so many games I wish this insight was out there for. Even for the elements I didn't like, I understood their explanations.
One of my favorite GI interviews, so this was such a pleasant surprise to see. Could’ve listened to hours of this haha If you do a part 2 it’d be great to be able to get some questions from the community!
I don't usually watch these things because they're so long, but this conversation was REALLY GOOD. A lot of insights and clarifications that make the two games even better. Very good questions as well. Would love to hear their own thoughts on who blew the horn in 2018.
If any game deserves a director's cut, it's this one. I personally really enjoyed it, I seriously appreciated the writing, and would love to see more of what the writers were playing around with because it all lands so well
I am glad the devs finally came out and said that a romantic relationship between Kratos and Freya would be stupid. They didn't say that exactly but their faces did. It would be corny and way out of character. Just for the simple fact (as they said) he killed her son. I mean....c'mon. And this should have been a trilogy. This would have fixed A LOT of the problems in the game story wise.
Really great interview, thanks for asking about the cut content as it’s always fascinating to learn how things could have gone. If you do get the chance for second interview could you ask more about how the story of the norse world itself evolved throughout the development of 2018. They’ve previously spoken of lore they cut involving the trolls and how Tyr massacred them which is very uncharacteristic of his final self. Would be interesting to find out some of their original ideas for characters like Loki, Baldur and Thor. Would also be interesting to learn how much of Ragnarok’s story was decided by the end of 2018. Like was the mural depicting events in an early draft of the story, an outline to jump off on or was it always meant to be “retconned” in a way.
Geez didn't expect so many people to be so down on the game in the comments. Still, loved this interview and excited to hear more from SSM and MinnMax. Also I'm curious as to whether the mask/reality fracture were mostly central to the Ragnarok story or if their may be references/continuations of it in future iterations.
I think cutting the sinmara part was a huge mistake. During my first playthrough it felt really off that we didnt see her and you can also see the entrance to the area, once u reach the end of the world. The interaction missing between kratos and atreus, actually helps us understand the talk between both of them better (when the warmachines were destroyed). Overall the final run towards ragnarok felt abit too rushed for me. It would have highly appreciated the sinmara section.
Ad: its weird how they deemed the missing part to streetch out the final run, while at the same time addmitting to not have played the game fully until release. I get the scope creep part and why they cut it. But story wise it would have been better to keep it in imo
@@harleystachel7225I think Cory really messed the writers up for Ragnorak. His limitation of it onlt being 2 games kinda sucks and made it so Ragnorak is both an amazing game with so much to do and really long while also a bloated beast.
@@PeachesandCream225yeah right! 😂 i rember 2 yrs ago CookingKratos put out the video saying "thor was gonna kill kratos" and i read all of the comments calling him crazy.😂 its still up btw
Truly the best in the biz Ben! Also, no offense to Eric Williams but it’s nice to hear some other voices because it’s clear his other “spoilercasts” had pre-screened questions.
I was hoping atreus and Kratos would’ve talked about his past.. there was a daughter before Atreus etc… also there’s a video w the dialogue of sinmara w an ai voice, it’s pree cool
I hate that they hadn't made the Sinmara cut. the Sirter bit was the only part of the story that I didn't like they essentially made Sirter do to Sinmara what Freya did to Balder and I hated that.
No disrespect to Rich and Matt but god this game disappointed me man… I see all the fanfare from people and I envy it truly, hearing them talk about first drafts and layouts of early ideas that sounded so cool really fucking hurts. I’m in no way qualified to comment on writing but I feel this game had a case of too many cooks in the kitchen (or writers room) and it hurts the game overall IN MY OPINION of course. Regardless, great interview Ben and if Matt or Rich ever sees this comment thank you both for delivering one of my fav stories of all time in GOW 2018 and much love too all of SM of course
Decided to rewrite this comment as it poorly communicated my thoughts on why the Norns scene isn't good and why whoever it was on the team that thought the scene was pretentious and dumb was right. The Norns claim they can’t see the future and merely predict things based upon reading the minds of those around them. They also have been shown to be remarkably accurate with their predictions. However, they are unable to predict a future where Kratos changes and thus doesn’t die. This is a contradiction, because change is a constant aspect of life and you wouldn’t be able to make any kind of accurate long term prediction if you didn’t account for it. Afterall, if prophecy isn’t real and it’s all just prediction, how could the giants have predicted kratos’ journey in 2018 since he changes throughout that entire story? Also, many things happen in the story that are the result of environmental factors. If the Norns can’t see the future and only the minds in the present, how on earth do they make any accurate predictions? Atreus manages to see the future in a dream without needing to see into the mind of anyone, as well as the giants. There's also a giant mural in the present that shows Kratos' ultimate fate of surviving ragnarok. Could the Norns not see into the mind of the giant who painted that mural? They could see the thoughts of Heimdall whose in an entirely different realm. The Norns also say the cause behind Kratos’ death is because he refuses to change. The writers confirm that when Kratos chooses to help the midgardians, this is the change needed to prevent his death. The problem with this, however, is that in context with the fight with Thor we see on screen, at no point did Kratos being nicer ever have an impact on the outcome. Kratos fights Thor, beats him and stabs his hand, and the Aesir is left open for an attack. If Kratos for some reason didn’t feel like sparing him, he could have easily killed him and gotten away with it scott free. Also, it’s never implied in any scene before the midgardian change that Kratos wanted to kill Thor. He tried sparing Heimdall and only killed him after he refused to stand down. He tried to stop fighting Thor in the first fight and only continued after Thor literally killed him and then brought him back to life. So it just doesn’t make any sense that Kratos was doomed to death at any point as it seemed his survival was guaranteed from the beginning. The Norns also say that the flaw Kratos must change is that he kills gods. This is in contradiction with the fact that Kratos plans and ultimately kills Odin and is still saved in the end. The Norns just don’t seem to really understand what flaws are actually dragging Kratos down as they say his choice of saving Freya from Baldur and Atreus from Heimdall (two gods who are literal sociopaths) are reasons for why he is flawed and is going to die. As pointed out before, Kratos never admits guilt on either of these two choices and his ultimate change in the story that the writers say saved him from death has nothing to do with either of these actions. Kratos' flaw in the story is that he refuses to help anyone that isn't his friends or family, and that he refuses to loosen his grip on Atreus, yet the Norns don't list either of these traits and instead say the reason Kratos will die is because he doesn't think killing the murderer Heimdall or the psychopath Baldur is wrong. The Norns act all wise and smart but, as shown above, are just fools whose success is linked solely to the writers giving them victories.
"Seriously, if you wanted to do the scene right, all that needed to be done was for the norns to tell Kratos fate isn't real and how he can change" My friend you need to play the game again, that is EXACTLY what happens in that scene. The Characters then go on to discuss it in detail for the next quarter of the game. Did it somehow go over your head? "We know this because we can read your mind and predict what you and everyone else is going to do" Again did you miss what was going on? It was the opposite they said that becasue people never change their behaviour that it SEEMS like they are predicting the future when they are not. The rest of the plot of the game deals with this as Kratos knew he had to change then of Thor was going to kill him. You sound like you missed the main story beat of the game, which is a shame.
@@rankcolour8780 Kratos never knew Thor was going to kill him. He knew he was going to die, but he did not know it was from Thor, and He definitely did not know it was because he refused to open his heart that his death would occur. This is the problem with the Norns scene, they just say Kratos is going to die then give no real explanation other than "You kill gods and refuse to change." which is a terrible response because it's not explaining why kratos is flawed. Some of the gods he killed deserved what happened to them, so how exactly is it that Kratos protecting his son from a violent sociopath like Heimdall is that a flaw in his character that will lead to his destruction? Kratos literally points this out with Mimir by saying, "What, am I just supposed to let my son die?" Kratos' flaws in the story all have to do with how he's treating Atreus and his refusal to help others that aren't his friends and family. (Which is contradicted by side quest in the game but whatever) yet the Norns never bring up that he needs to open his heart, or respect his son, or anything other than, "You should no kill god." I understand that Kratos does end up killing Heimdall needlessly (which is debatable considering Heimdall was a vile bastard who would never surrender) but this doesn't even have consequences on the story. But if the entire point of this scene is to establish how Kratos is in the wrong and heading down the wrong path, they failed. And to go back to my point about explaining fate, you're misunderstanding me. I know they say fate isn't real in the cutscene, but they say this then give no explanation on how Kratos can change, which effectively that he can't change fate. I mean, according to the norns, the only way Kratos can change fate is letting Heimdall kill his son. So if that's the case, then I guess he does have to die. Also, how exactly can you say the Norns aren't predicting the future? One of them can literally say everything Freya, Kratos, and Mimir are about to say? They can predict Kratos' death which was prophesized by the giants. They predicted Baldur's' death. They have the ability to predict the future, it doesn't just SEEM that way.
@@clichedan7812 You should play the game again. Kratos knew since the end of GoW 2018. The whole way through Ragnarok they keep talking about his death prophecy. Did you pay attention at all to the dialogue? The Norns make it very clear he will die unless he changes his ways, kratos Mimir, and Freya talk about it constantly for the rest of the game. The whole point of Atreus doing what HE did in Ragnarok is becasue he was also aware of the death prophecy at the hands of Thor. The end mural in the game is Kratos redemption painted over the mural panel where Thor kills him to show in conclusion to the story beats he was able to change and avoid his death. Were you sleep for the story beats? The Nors themselves explain they do not predict the future they extrapolate based on behavioural patterns. For those a little too dense to understand the convo the game gives you a break down courtesy of Mimir after you leave the Norns where he congratulates them on their ability to manipulate the way people behave. You must have had your eyes and ears shut the whole narrative.
@@rankcolour8780 Ok, now you just don't know how to read. Where in my comment did I say,"Kratos never knew he was destined to die"? Kratos and Freya say in the story, "They have changed." but this isn't shown in the story as the change the Norns suggested was wrong. THIS IS MY PROBLEM. The Norns show up and don't do anything for the story besides tell kratos to forge the spear. Everything they explain to Kratos, he already knew. He already didn't believe in fate. He already believed he could change it. He already was willing to die to protect his son. They add nothing to the themes or arcs at play here. The conversation with Mimir proves this as he confirms the Norn's message to Kratos was to either kill Heimdall or let his son die. The Norns SHOULD have given more details on what's going on. They SHOULD have listed a flaw of Kratos that isn't as vague as saying, "Killing people wrong sometimes." They SHOULD have been consequential to the story but they're not. "The Nors themselves explain they do not predict the future they extrapolate based on behavioural patterns." What do you think the word "Predict" means?
@@clichedan7812 I'm amazed you could play the game and not understand the story like this, truly impressive. The change the Norns suggested is exactly what happened. The Norns message was to stop doing things witht he same old motivations. Somehow they literally give examples to Kratos and Freya of their old ways of thinking and how it led them to where they are and you.....completely failed to understand. Bravo However whether you understand of not the Norns message overlaps exactly with Kratos path from when he arrived in Midgard over 100 years earlier. Spending his time in the forest fighting animals in an attempt to change from Kratos the destroyer to something else. What he needed was some understanding of the nature of his motivation. This isn't new and the characters discuss this in-game. I applaud you ability to play a milti hour experience and utterly fail to comprehend what you are seeing and hearing. Still it led to this humorous exchange, which is at the very least hilarious. Thanks 🤣
@@atomic.procrastinator I remember it starting out pretty strong. But after rescuing Tyr, I just started to go, "Y'know, this has been kinda boring so far, but I'm sure it'll pick up." And storywise it just felt like a meandering mess. I couldn't believe how much appreciation I felt for the older games right after finishing this one.
This thing always happens. The game at the beginning of the development is wonderful, and with the deletion of some scenes and a change in the scenario of the story, the game becomes disappointing. This is exactly what we got. If they left these things, it would have been better and they made a third part of the game about Ragnarok. 13:00 wow This idea was great from Cory Barlog. I don't understand why they would let someone like Eric destroy the dream of a game we had been waiting for 5 years.
I feel like Eric's inexperience in story telling really held back the writers creativity and thats why a lot the story particularly towards the end of the game felt rather underwhelming. "Giving the fans what they need rather than what they want" is definitely pretentious and subverting fan expectations was a risk that in my opinion didn't pay off but with that said I think the bar was just raised so high in 2018 that it was always going to be a monumental task to reach those same heights never mind surpassing them.
Aculy fan Service is never good. Becaus leting the Fans control the plot means Not using your own ideas. If you see a story and thing i would have Done it diferently tell your own Version with your own characters. Eric is a gameplay guy and he sayed as much .cory Was always the narativ guy on the Team.
But mayby Eric just should do other types of games? Have cory and New hiredd narativ Directors on the Team. Eric Co directet The last on and was involfed in the ploting thought so who knews how much from 2018 was his. They had to be creativ to pull ragnarök off Ragnarök was always just this Monster and it Was about building up to it. Ragnarök beeing the m Clinax was ok.
@@simpleclout5546 Hahah it was sarcasm. Getting Mjolnir would of been awesome. It's in all the marketing and collectors edition because they know it sells yet you don't get it in the game... Baffling.
@@midyof94 oh ok lol some people nowadays say some stupid sht that's why I didn't think it was sarcasm but yeah if you really think about it, almost every decision in this game was terrible, from toning this game down like they're making a game for 12 year olds to even the cover which I thought was so uncreative compared to the others from the series, making the decision to make Eric the director was really a shot in the foot
Only God of war Ragnarok could have disappointed me this way, waited nearly 5 years for it just to feel upset every time I remember the story and how poorly executed it was and then to see all these people praising as one of the best video games stories, sure it had some good individual scenes but as you said the overall story was lacking.
Hindsight is always 20/20. If they went the route discussed here and had discussions about the game we ended up getting people would clamor for that too lol.
Man, I can really tell that having too many writers did a significant harm to this game. Richard looks genuinely unhappy and unconvinced about a lot of the story decisions, especially the mask.
Some awful opinions in here. I'm glad they went with the story they did; it was thoroughly well written (minus Ironwood) and doesn't cater to the lowest common denominator of idiots that had everything fly over their heads. They're mostly the ones complaining that want all the subtext and character work to be thrown out so it devolves into GoW3 and Kratos goes on a killing spree; as fun as that was, it's bad from a narrative point of view, and while 3 is a great game overall, it had a shit story.
Were you a fan of how early they fixed the relationship with Freya so she could be our square button or how unlikable tyr was whether or not he was Odin, and how Odin did nothing and how the story is told in such a way that it turns out if Kratos and atrues just stayed home nothing would have happened? Ragnarok's story was so disappointing and people are praising it because the graphics are great and it has cool ideas and this and that scene was really interesting but they aren't paying attention to the overall story and it's pacing issues and other flaws. I wish I could ignore it's issues and love it too, I'd be happier.
@@Epictook If that's what you think... then do you even get what the story was about? Odin did nothing the whole time? How about remaining disguised as Tyr, and running a wedge between Atreus and Kratos... all so he could cleverly manipulate the kid to piece together an artifact that would give him infinite power? Ragnarok wouldn't have been avoided if they stayed home. That's not how you breakdown a story... this is how you break it down: ua-cam.com/video/W4FuJlfX14c/v-deo.html I'm going to venture a guess that you like the old games?
@@trunksbriefs4132 Sorry this is a little long Of course I understand what the story is about but just because I understand it doesn't mean it was executed well. I do like the old games but I like the new ones too, if I had to pick one I'd pick the new ones, I'd only ask them to speed up climbing because it's slow and boring and I'm likely to play the game multiple times. And yh Odin basically did nothing, he called Atreus champion one time and the other time he did anything close to manipulation was when Atreus already wanted to go back to Asgard and he even asked Mimir and Mimir agreed so I don't think that should count, aside from those to examples he did nothing, he found out that they made a weapon to kill Heimdall and he let it happen he didn't even take the horn from him before sending him to vanaheim and why did we even need to stop Odin, he didn't really do anything villainous untill the end he only wanted the mask for knowledge, he said he didn't want war and didn't want to hurt anyone, sure he could have been lying but the story never made it seem that way in the end it looked like they provoked him, they took the mask so of course he was going to come for it. And the reason why I said nothing would happen if they stayed home is because Odin couldn't do anything with the mask, he couldn't read it and it didn't react when he touched it and he's had it for centuries if Atreus stayed away from him he'd never have it, and if they never rescued Tyr he wouldn't have killed brok which the director said is the reason why ragnarok started. Surtr was useless, came and destroyed Asgard after Thor and Odin were already dead, asgard didn't need to be destroyed. And there's more but this is getting too long.
I strongly believe that if Tyr was going to be Odin they should have made us like him not feel annoyed by him, I next to didn't care at all when it happened I was glad he was out of the house, I did feel sorry for Sindri tho, I knew losing brok was going to hurt him a lot
If any fans want to blame someone for the game not being what u wanted put the blame on cory barlog he is the one who stepped away from directing the sequel it was his vision he should of finished the story himself instead of passing it on to someone else he is the one who let u down not the team
I understand Cory being exhausted but it would have been better to have Eric work on that unannounced title and release it next rather than have someone else ruin the work he started.
The game sucked man sorry to say I won’t bother with new game plus cuz it’s just too long and boring story. I can’t believe I’m saying this I didn’t think this would be my by opinion.
@@simpleclout5546 there actually is technically a lot of things wrong with the story but it seems most people are just too blind or easily distracted to see it
Please fire Ben, all he does is make annoying nitpicking complaints. I couldn’t believe it when he asked the writers of the game if they could put in a setting where you can have less in-game dialogue.
Ngl to read a comment saying "fire someone" (take away this mans livelihood so he cant feed his family) over questions. And to say "PLEASE" is very nasty work. Here's a "Please" for you... *PLEASE* get some therapy. I will even help you.
Not going to lie, as an old school GoW player I preordered Ragnarok, played 70% of it and set it down for months. I did NOT want to find out that the studio could kill Kratos.
But a real kratos fan would want him to rest. He has been alive for so long. Kratos even says "being a god can become a lifetime of anguish and tragedy. That is the curse" So again... As a fan of kratos, Why wouldn't u want him to rest?
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I genuinely hope you do a part 2 because this whole interview flew by. There's so much to talk about!
Great interview! Some incredible questions that get some answers I thought we would never get. Fantastic job Ben 👍🏻
This is an incredible interview. There are so many games I wish this insight was out there for. Even for the elements I didn't like, I understood their explanations.
Ben is the best interviewer in video games!
Thank you, tell a friend!
28:28 Glad to hear that. Really liked professional co-worker relationship between Freya and Kratos.
One of my favorite GI interviews, so this was such a pleasant surprise to see. Could’ve listened to hours of this haha
If you do a part 2 it’d be great to be able to get some questions from the community!
This was a great interview, really looking forward to the next one
Thanks, any help sharing is appreciated!
I don't usually watch these things because they're so long, but this conversation was REALLY GOOD. A lot of insights and clarifications that make the two games even better. Very good questions as well. Would love to hear their own thoughts on who blew the horn in 2018.
Thanks so much, glad you found MinnMax's channel. Subscribe and stick around for a while!
If any game deserves a director's cut, it's this one. I personally really enjoyed it, I seriously appreciated the writing, and would love to see more of what the writers were playing around with because it all lands so well
Not making Ragnarok was Cory's biggest mistake. Hats off to Eric, his design prowess was well exhibited, but the story suffered soooooooooooo much
Amazing! I would love to have seen Surtr's story expanded, but it totally makes sense for pacing. Hoping we get a behind the scenes of those moments.
I'd imagine if The Norse games WERE a trilogy, he would have been a big focus of the third game.
I am glad the devs finally came out and said that a romantic relationship between Kratos and Freya would be stupid. They didn't say that exactly but their faces did.
It would be corny and way out of character. Just for the simple fact (as they said) he killed her son. I mean....c'mon.
And this should have been a trilogy. This would have fixed A LOT of the problems in the game story wise.
Ikr. Every teen kid in the comments were saying "kRaT0s wiLL mArrY fReyA" 🤦🤦🤦😂
I love that the Valhalla dlc addresses this
Really great interview, thanks for asking about the cut content as it’s always fascinating to learn how things could have gone. If you do get the chance for second interview could you ask more about how the story of the norse world itself evolved throughout the development of 2018. They’ve previously spoken of lore they cut involving the trolls and how Tyr massacred them which is very uncharacteristic of his final self. Would be interesting to find out some of their original ideas for characters like Loki, Baldur and Thor.
Would also be interesting to learn how much of Ragnarok’s story was decided by the end of 2018. Like was the mural depicting events in an early draft of the story, an outline to jump off on or was it always meant to be “retconned” in a way.
mop on a head spotting??
Really good interview 👏 I could have listened to them for hours
Thanks so much, David!
Geez didn't expect so many people to be so down on the game in the comments. Still, loved this interview and excited to hear more from SSM and MinnMax. Also I'm curious as to whether the mask/reality fracture were mostly central to the Ragnarok story or if their may be references/continuations of it in future iterations.
They said the mask was basically useless
I'm still waiting for part 2 😉😉😉
Love these interviews! Saving this for after I finish the game.
What killed me was " Loki goes. Atreus remains".... Dude. As a father...... It hit so deeply!
I think cutting the sinmara part was a huge mistake. During my first playthrough it felt really off that we didnt see her and you can also see the entrance to the area, once u reach the end of the world. The interaction missing between kratos and atreus, actually helps us understand the talk between both of them better (when the warmachines were destroyed). Overall the final run towards ragnarok felt abit too rushed for me. It would have highly appreciated the sinmara section.
Ad: its weird how they deemed the missing part to streetch out the final run, while at the same time addmitting to not have played the game fully until release. I get the scope creep part and why they cut it. But story wise it would have been better to keep it in imo
@@harleystachel7225I think Cory really messed the writers up for Ragnorak. His limitation of it onlt being 2 games kinda sucks and made it so Ragnorak is both an amazing game with so much to do and really long while also a bloated beast.
No I’m glad they scraped that. That completely isn’t Atreus’ character
The fact Kratos in an early draft of the game was set out to die to Thor is mind boggling
Yeah that would have been great. I cant believe Kratos didnt die in this game
@@PeachesandCream225yeah right! 😂 i rember 2 yrs ago CookingKratos put out the video saying "thor was gonna kill kratos" and i read all of the comments calling him crazy.😂 its still up btw
Truly the best in the biz Ben!
Also, no offense to Eric Williams but it’s nice to hear some other voices because it’s clear his other “spoilercasts” had pre-screened questions.
I was hoping atreus and Kratos would’ve talked about his past.. there was a daughter before Atreus etc… also there’s a video w the dialogue of sinmara w an ai voice, it’s pree cool
Looks like you've been watching utuber @CookingWithKratos
@@ihateshills naw never heard of him, but he look like he got a binge worthy channel 🔥 fye bro
fantastic, love this content the most from you guys
Amazing! When is part two Ben?:)
amazing video to listen to
Excellent as always
Thank you
I hate that they hadn't made the Sinmara cut. the Sirter bit was the only part of the story that I didn't like they essentially made Sirter do to Sinmara what Freya did to Balder and I hated that.
W Interview .
No disrespect to Rich and Matt but god this game disappointed me man… I see all the fanfare from people and I envy it truly, hearing them talk about first drafts and layouts of early ideas that sounded so cool really fucking hurts. I’m in no way qualified to comment on writing but I feel this game had a case of too many cooks in the kitchen (or writers room) and it hurts the game overall IN MY OPINION of course.
Regardless, great interview Ben and if Matt or Rich ever sees this comment thank you both for delivering one of my fav stories of all time in GOW 2018 and much love too all of SM of course
The nornes kinda reminded of the witch from the dark crystal?
Decided to rewrite this comment as it poorly communicated my thoughts on why the Norns scene isn't good and why whoever it was on the team that thought the scene was pretentious and dumb was right.
The Norns claim they can’t see the future and merely predict things based upon reading the minds of those around them. They also have been shown to be remarkably accurate with their predictions. However, they are unable to predict a future where Kratos changes and thus doesn’t die. This is a contradiction, because change is a constant aspect of life and you wouldn’t be able to make any kind of accurate long term prediction if you didn’t account for it. Afterall, if prophecy isn’t real and it’s all just prediction, how could the giants have predicted kratos’ journey in 2018 since he changes throughout that entire story? Also, many things happen in the story that are the result of environmental factors. If the Norns can’t see the future and only the minds in the present, how on earth do they make any accurate predictions? Atreus manages to see the future in a dream without needing to see into the mind of anyone, as well as the giants. There's also a giant mural in the present that shows Kratos' ultimate fate of surviving ragnarok. Could the Norns not see into the mind of the giant who painted that mural? They could see the thoughts of Heimdall whose in an entirely different realm.
The Norns also say the cause behind Kratos’ death is because he refuses to change. The writers confirm that when Kratos chooses to help the midgardians, this is the change needed to prevent his death. The problem with this, however, is that in context with the fight with Thor we see on screen, at no point did Kratos being nicer ever have an impact on the outcome. Kratos fights Thor, beats him and stabs his hand, and the Aesir is left open for an attack. If Kratos for some reason didn’t feel like sparing him, he could have easily killed him and gotten away with it scott free. Also, it’s never implied in any scene before the midgardian change that Kratos wanted to kill Thor. He tried sparing Heimdall and only killed him after he refused to stand down. He tried to stop fighting Thor in the first fight and only continued after Thor literally killed him and then brought him back to life. So it just doesn’t make any sense that Kratos was doomed to death at any point as it seemed his survival was guaranteed from the beginning.
The Norns also say that the flaw Kratos must change is that he kills gods. This is in contradiction with the fact that Kratos plans and ultimately kills Odin and is still saved in the end.
The Norns just don’t seem to really understand what flaws are actually dragging Kratos down as they say his choice of saving Freya from Baldur and Atreus from Heimdall (two gods who are literal sociopaths) are reasons for why he is flawed and is going to die. As pointed out before, Kratos never admits guilt on either of these two choices and his ultimate change in the story that the writers say saved him from death has nothing to do with either of these actions. Kratos' flaw in the story is that he refuses to help anyone that isn't his friends or family, and that he refuses to loosen his grip on Atreus, yet the Norns don't list either of these traits and instead say the reason Kratos will die is because he doesn't think killing the murderer Heimdall or the psychopath Baldur is wrong.
The Norns act all wise and smart but, as shown above, are just fools whose success is linked solely to the writers giving them victories.
"Seriously, if you wanted to do the scene right, all that needed to be done was for the norns to tell Kratos fate isn't real and how he can change"
My friend you need to play the game again, that is EXACTLY what happens in that scene. The Characters then go on to discuss it in detail for the next quarter of the game. Did it somehow go over your head?
"We know this because we can read your mind and predict what you and everyone else is going to do"
Again did you miss what was going on? It was the opposite they said that becasue people never change their behaviour that it SEEMS like they are predicting the future when they are not. The rest of the plot of the game deals with this as Kratos knew he had to change then of Thor was going to kill him.
You sound like you missed the main story beat of the game, which is a shame.
@@rankcolour8780
Kratos never knew Thor was going to kill him. He knew he was going to die, but he did not know it was from Thor, and He definitely did not know it was because he refused to open his heart that his death would occur.
This is the problem with the Norns scene, they just say Kratos is going to die then give no real explanation other than "You kill gods and refuse to change." which is a terrible response because it's not explaining why kratos is flawed. Some of the gods he killed deserved what happened to them, so how exactly is it that Kratos protecting his son from a violent sociopath like Heimdall is that a flaw in his character that will lead to his destruction? Kratos literally points this out with Mimir by saying, "What, am I just supposed to let my son die?"
Kratos' flaws in the story all have to do with how he's treating Atreus and his refusal to help others that aren't his friends and family. (Which is contradicted by side quest in the game but whatever) yet the Norns never bring up that he needs to open his heart, or respect his son, or anything other than, "You should no kill god."
I understand that Kratos does end up killing Heimdall needlessly (which is debatable considering Heimdall was a vile bastard who would never surrender) but this doesn't even have consequences on the story.
But if the entire point of this scene is to establish how Kratos is in the wrong and heading down the wrong path, they failed.
And to go back to my point about explaining fate, you're misunderstanding me. I know they say fate isn't real in the cutscene, but they say this then give no explanation on how Kratos can change, which effectively that he can't change fate. I mean, according to the norns, the only way Kratos can change fate is letting Heimdall kill his son. So if that's the case, then I guess he does have to die.
Also, how exactly can you say the Norns aren't predicting the future? One of them can literally say everything Freya, Kratos, and Mimir are about to say? They can predict Kratos' death which was prophesized by the giants. They predicted Baldur's' death. They have the ability to predict the future, it doesn't just SEEM that way.
@@clichedan7812
You should play the game again.
Kratos knew since the end of GoW 2018. The whole way through Ragnarok they keep talking about his death prophecy.
Did you pay attention at all to the dialogue?
The Norns make it very clear he will die unless he changes his ways, kratos Mimir, and Freya talk about it constantly for the rest of the game.
The whole point of Atreus doing what HE did in Ragnarok is becasue he was also aware of the death prophecy at the hands of Thor.
The end mural in the game is Kratos redemption painted over the mural panel where Thor kills him to show in conclusion to the story beats he was able to change and avoid his death.
Were you sleep for the story beats?
The Nors themselves explain they do not predict the future they extrapolate based on behavioural patterns. For those a little too dense to understand the convo the game gives you a break down courtesy of Mimir after you leave the Norns where he congratulates them on their ability to manipulate the way people behave.
You must have had your eyes and ears shut the whole narrative.
@@rankcolour8780 Ok, now you just don't know how to read.
Where in my comment did I say,"Kratos never knew he was destined to die"?
Kratos and Freya say in the story, "They have changed." but this isn't shown in the story as the change the Norns suggested was wrong.
THIS IS MY PROBLEM. The Norns show up and don't do anything for the story besides tell kratos to forge the spear. Everything they explain to Kratos, he already knew. He already didn't believe in fate. He already believed he could change it. He already was willing to die to protect his son. They add nothing to the themes or arcs at play here.
The conversation with Mimir proves this as he confirms the Norn's message to Kratos was to either kill Heimdall or let his son die.
The Norns SHOULD have given more details on what's going on. They SHOULD have listed a flaw of Kratos that isn't as vague as saying, "Killing people wrong sometimes." They SHOULD have been consequential to the story but they're not.
"The Nors themselves explain they do not predict the future they extrapolate based on behavioural patterns."
What do you think the word "Predict" means?
@@clichedan7812
I'm amazed you could play the game and not understand the story like this, truly impressive.
The change the Norns suggested is exactly what happened.
The Norns message was to stop doing things witht he same old motivations. Somehow they literally give examples to Kratos and Freya of their old ways of thinking and how it led them to where they are and you.....completely failed to understand. Bravo
However whether you understand of not the Norns message overlaps exactly with Kratos path from when he arrived in Midgard over 100 years earlier.
Spending his time in the forest fighting animals in an attempt to change from Kratos the destroyer to something else. What he needed was some understanding of the nature of his motivation.
This isn't new and the characters discuss this in-game.
I applaud you ability to play a milti hour experience and utterly fail to comprehend what you are seeing and hearing.
Still it led to this humorous exchange, which is at the very least hilarious. Thanks 🤣
As someone who was profoundly disappointed by Ragnarok, I still appreciated this talk.
I remember sitting through the ending, and just told my girl "this feels...anticlimactic"
@@atomic.procrastinator I remember it starting out pretty strong. But after rescuing Tyr, I just started to go, "Y'know, this has been kinda boring so far, but I'm sure it'll pick up." And storywise it just felt like a meandering mess.
I couldn't believe how much appreciation I felt for the older games right after finishing this one.
I loved the game even though the ironwood section was boring as hell.
Part 2 - Need to know who blew the horn 😅
What about Athena? What is the mask? Why hasnt Kratos talked to his son about his wife and daughter?
I’m glad that they left Freya and Kratos as allies.
Why Odin disguised as Tyr explained everyone about the Mask? Thru himself under the Bus?
Hit dislike by mistake 🤦🏾♂️ this interview was great love it.
This thing always happens. The game at the beginning of the development is wonderful, and with the deletion of some scenes and a change in the scenario of the story, the game becomes disappointing. This is exactly what we got. If they left these things, it would have been better and they made a third part of the game about Ragnarok. 13:00 wow This idea was great from Cory Barlog. I don't understand why they would let someone like Eric destroy the dream of a game we had been waiting for 5 years.
That idea would literally have pissed people off 💀💀
@@mrrobluxo2369 who cares if it pisses people off. If its a good story then that is all that matters
I feel like Eric's inexperience in story telling really held back the writers creativity and thats why a lot the story particularly towards the end of the game felt rather underwhelming. "Giving the fans what they need rather than what they want" is definitely pretentious and subverting fan expectations was a risk that in my opinion didn't pay off but with that said I think the bar was just raised so high in 2018 that it was always going to be a monumental task to reach those same heights never mind surpassing them.
Aculy fan Service is never good. Becaus leting the Fans control the plot means Not using your own ideas.
If you see a story and thing i would have Done it diferently tell your own Version with your own characters.
Eric is a gameplay guy and he sayed as much .cory Was always the narativ guy on the Team.
But mayby Eric just should do other types of games? Have cory and New hiredd narativ Directors on the Team.
Eric Co directet The last on and was involfed in the ploting thought so who knews how much from 2018 was his. They had to be creativ to pull ragnarök off
Ragnarök was always just this Monster and it Was about building up to it. Ragnarök beeing the m Clinax was ok.
Eric butchered the most ambitious Gow game ever. Should have stayed an Animator for the greater good.
Eric was the biggest mistake, Ragnarok was very disappointing
yeah, disappointing game
No DLC *Sad*
Yes getting Mjolnir would of been super boring. I remember when everyone wanted the blades in 2018 and getting them was boring as well...
Lol WHAT??!?? Getting the blades was like the biggest moment in Gaming history and getting Mjolnir would be boring??!! U gotta be trolling
@@simpleclout5546 Hahah it was sarcasm. Getting Mjolnir would of been awesome. It's in all the marketing and collectors edition because they know it sells yet you don't get it in the game... Baffling.
@@midyof94 oh ok lol some people nowadays say some stupid sht that's why I didn't think it was sarcasm but yeah if you really think about it, almost every decision in this game was terrible, from toning this game down like they're making a game for 12 year olds to even the cover which I thought was so uncreative compared to the others from the series, making the decision to make Eric the director was really a shot in the foot
The more time passes the more you realize how lacking the ragnarok story was. Some of these ideas and cut content probably would have been better
Only God of war Ragnarok could have disappointed me this way, waited nearly 5 years for it just to feel upset every time I remember the story and how poorly executed it was and then to see all these people praising as one of the best video games stories, sure it had some good individual scenes but as you said the overall story was lacking.
Def
I respect your opinion but an also glad it is in the minority.
Hindsight is always 20/20. If they went the route discussed here and had discussions about the game we ended up getting people would clamor for that too lol.
@@Epictookwhat about the overall story was lacking, specifically？ Be as detailed as possible
Man, I can really tell that having too many writers did a significant harm to this game. Richard looks genuinely unhappy and unconvinced about a lot of the story decisions, especially the mask.
Really? To me he seemed passionate about the imagery the mask shared. I would love to hear more about why you think that way.
@@beegusburger he seemed like he liked the idea a decent chunk.
He genuinely doesn't
Lmao we got ourselves mind readers over here
yeah i didn’t think he seemed unhappy and it feels like you’re bringing a sentiment with you and applying it to someone else
The norse saga would have been better if it was a trilogy
Some awful opinions in here. I'm glad they went with the story they did; it was thoroughly well written (minus Ironwood) and doesn't cater to the lowest common denominator of idiots that had everything fly over their heads. They're mostly the ones complaining that want all the subtext and character work to be thrown out so it devolves into GoW3 and Kratos goes on a killing spree; as fun as that was, it's bad from a narrative point of view, and while 3 is a great game overall, it had a shit story.
Were you a fan of how early they fixed the relationship with Freya so she could be our square button or how unlikable tyr was whether or not he was Odin, and how Odin did nothing and how the story is told in such a way that it turns out if Kratos and atrues just stayed home nothing would have happened? Ragnarok's story was so disappointing and people are praising it because the graphics are great and it has cool ideas and this and that scene was really interesting but they aren't paying attention to the overall story and it's pacing issues and other flaws. I wish I could ignore it's issues and love it too, I'd be happier.
@@Epictook If that's what you think... then do you even get what the story was about?
Odin did nothing the whole time? How about remaining disguised as Tyr, and running a wedge between Atreus and Kratos... all so he could cleverly manipulate the kid to piece together an artifact that would give him infinite power?
Ragnarok wouldn't have been avoided if they stayed home. That's not how you breakdown a story... this is how you break it down: ua-cam.com/video/W4FuJlfX14c/v-deo.html
I'm going to venture a guess that you like the old games?
@@trunksbriefs4132
Sorry this is a little long
Of course I understand what the story is about but just because I understand it doesn't mean it was executed well.
I do like the old games but I like the new ones too, if I had to pick one I'd pick the new ones, I'd only ask them to speed up climbing because it's slow and boring and I'm likely to play the game multiple times.
And yh Odin basically did nothing, he called Atreus champion one time and the other time he did anything close to manipulation was when Atreus already wanted to go back to Asgard and he even asked Mimir and Mimir agreed so I don't think that should count, aside from those to examples he did nothing, he found out that they made a weapon to kill Heimdall and he let it happen he didn't even take the horn from him before sending him to vanaheim and why did we even need to stop Odin, he didn't really do anything villainous untill the end he only wanted the mask for knowledge, he said he didn't want war and didn't want to hurt anyone, sure he could have been lying but the story never made it seem that way in the end it looked like they provoked him, they took the mask so of course he was going to come for it.
And the reason why I said nothing would happen if they stayed home is because Odin couldn't do anything with the mask, he couldn't read it and it didn't react when he touched it and he's had it for centuries if Atreus stayed away from him he'd never have it, and if they never rescued Tyr he wouldn't have killed brok which the director said is the reason why ragnarok started.
Surtr was useless, came and destroyed Asgard after Thor and Odin were already dead, asgard didn't need to be destroyed. And there's more but this is getting too long.
I strongly believe that if Tyr was going to be Odin they should have made us like him not feel annoyed by him, I next to didn't care at all when it happened I was glad he was out of the house, I did feel sorry for Sindri tho, I knew losing brok was going to hurt him a lot
What was wrong with the story of 3
There should be a 10 minute segment timestampted as "Who blew the god damn horn?"
Why did you guys write in to the story a fifteen hour excursion on a yak that leads nowhere
lead no where? Obviously the Yak was used so Angrboda could tell us aload of backstory
@@PeachesandCream225 Took forever to get there. Intense yak riding action.
@@PeachesandCream225like what?
If any fans want to blame someone for the game not being what u wanted put the blame on cory barlog he is the one who stepped away from directing the sequel it was his vision he should of finished the story himself instead of passing it on to someone else he is the one who let u down not the team
hope more people start to realize the story is meh
He was probably really tired bc why wouldn't he?
he did it on purpose bc was impossible to exceed expectations
I understand Cory being exhausted but it would have been better to have Eric work on that unannounced title and release it next rather than have someone else ruin the work he started.
You're right
all respect to them but ragnorak fell flat. super anti climatic. cory barlog should have had total control over the norse saga
Writers' room kills creativity. I hope they ditch that for the next game
They screw up God Off War.... Sad true... The game is boring... Cratos... He's not Cratos... This should not be called a GOW game....
Can't even spell kratos correctly.
The game sucked man sorry to say I won’t bother with new game plus cuz it’s just too long and boring story. I can’t believe I’m saying this I didn’t think this would be my by opinion.
Same bro, the only reason this game gets a 10/10 it's bc there's technically nothing wrong with it
@@simpleclout5546 there actually is technically a lot of things wrong with the story but it seems most people are just too blind or easily distracted to see it
Please fire Ben, all he does is make annoying nitpicking complaints. I couldn’t believe it when he asked the writers of the game if they could put in a setting where you can have less in-game dialogue.
Thanks for watching MinnMax's channel, Scampoli! All the best.
Ngl to read a comment saying "fire someone" (take away this mans livelihood so he cant feed his family) over questions. And to say "PLEASE" is very nasty work. Here's a "Please" for you... *PLEASE* get some therapy. I will even help you.
Not going to lie, as an old school GoW player I preordered Ragnarok, played 70% of it and set it down for months. I did NOT want to find out that the studio could kill Kratos.
Have you finished it yet?
@@Epictook Yes, right after posting this, I jumped back in to finish the whole thing. I have to say, I'm ready for whatever comes next lol.
But a real kratos fan would want him to rest. He has been alive for so long. Kratos even says "being a god can become a lifetime of anguish and tragedy. That is the curse" So again... As a fan of kratos, Why wouldn't u want him to rest?