Hello, just your local technician I professionally install these for a living I do say it can be difficult but I love my job! I would recommend using baby soap instead of dish soap it is more gentle and not as harsh as dish soap. That was one thing I learned when I first started. No clue how long you have been doing it but some of those chemicals can be harmful and if you don't get all of the water out it can actually ruin the paint underneath the clear bra I found that out the hard way. Otherwise this was a very great application process. When you go to make it stick to the car use a little bit of rubbing alcohol mixed with water to create a solution it will make it stick longer. If it gets to sticky or tacky when applying use that water mixture of baby soap and water to pull up. Then re apply. after it is finished hear down with a heat gun. Trim edges with razor blade. To pop bubbles use a insulin needle to suck out all of the excess air pockets! For any prep after you clean the car wipe off with adhesive remover then rubbing alcohol before spray down with the soapy water solution. I just summed up some of it so it is easier to understand for all of you. Hope this helps! Any questions feel free to ask me! Good luck you're doing great so far!
So initially I would use the baby soap and water mixture. But then when I’m ready to actually squeegee it I would apply the alcohol and water mixture under it ? And if it gets too tacky I would reapply the other solution under it?
Followed your instructions for my Suburban and it turned out well. A lot more angles on the front of the hood than my wife's car, so her car should be a lot easier. Your instructions were easy to follow and the whole thing took about an hour. Looks good! Thank you.
Very good video. Thanks. It is now 3 years later. Did it hold up well? Also, and you may not remember, those little water bubbles trapped that were supposed to disappear with evaporation, did that happen? Did the bubbles just disappear?
That was on a 2017 Toyota Highlander i own and after three years it started getting black spots under the film, which was where small pin holes where in the film and it looked terrible, and was turning black alone the edges, it was on the hood, mirrors, under door handles, door edges, rear bumper, I removed it all, looks like a new car
It should be re applied after 6 months if you up keep it will be great for the car if you do not it can actually be harmful to the paint underneath. I don't tuck my edges due to that reason. this is my professional opinion. yes it protects from chipping but if apply incorrectly it can damage the car.
Hi, I have some questions please. How do you know if you have too little soap or too much soap is there a way to check. I ask as surely there will be several variables that could make this different? What squeegee do you recommend as if there are rolls or convex curves, how do I bend the hard card? What tacky substance do you recommend for the edges, and how much would I use? Thanks so much
The soap just put enough that is can slip. Ultimately you squeegee out all of it so no magic ratio. The squeegee I recommend is in linked in the description. It is a nice firm plastic with felt edges so you don't scratch or damage anything. The adhesive on the vinyl is what gets tacky. You just need to use isopropyl alcohol to spray off the soapy water. Let it dry a little, and then it is tacky to tuck the edges.
@@JrsGasolineAlley Jr's Gasoline Alley thanks, just having done a lot of research (me being me sorry) it's very clear that if it's cold the soap should be different if it's hot the soap should be different as well as other things. I heard there is a science to mixing the perfect bottle but have yet to come across the proper information, I was hoping you may know. Again from research, it seems that the rubber squeegees are much better suited so the swueegee can bend? Hard cards which you are using apparently don't work that well. What do you think? With the Alcohol, again how much is enough, if for example I'm using the same bottles as you, which I guess is 1litre? I'm guessing there's at set amount or a correct ratio? Thanks again for your help. And thanks for coming back to me.
In the beginning of the video you said that you made a tac solution but I didn't notice where in the video that you used it could you maybe suggest where it should or would be used? Also in every other video I've watched people tend to use a heat gun is there a reason you didn't use one or is there specific situations in which you don't need it? Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
lindseyhunt1090-GarageB Then you bought the wrong stuff or something dude. Don’t go around spreading miss information like that. This vivid clear is literally $10 per square foot, and works insanely good. I had a clear bra installed on my STI 8 years ago and unfortunately it has some yellowing, but barely noticeable. The newer stuff shouldn’t even yellow either.
@@lindseyhunt1090garageb Last time I checked this video wasnt about installing a carbon fibre wrap, so why answer a guy asking how this CLEAR wrap holds up? Plus you say it was completely fucked but give no circumstances. You probably keep your car outside with no covering 365 days a year lmfao. I'm rying to give some info to the original commenter.
@@Kyezie131 the guy asked how it held up. I said I bought a product from vivid and it was fucked in 6 months. The car is kept outside. I dont really think that's an excuse to have it be fucked in 6 months. It cracked and pealed. Also the finish is completely dull and the carbon style finish is just brown and you cant see it anymore. It looks like it was on fire. Sorry for replying to a question. Have a good day
I always though you're not supposed to use dish soap on cars as it's can strip the wax or protective coating off the paint. I mean, i guess it doesn't really matter since there will be a vinyl layer, but it still doesn't sit well with me. Would using carwash soap work just as well?
How does the clear wrap adhere to the car though, is an adhesive activated by the water or ?? I have some I want to apply to an epxy resing finish, but I dont detect any kind of adhesive.
Hey I am a clear bra technician when you go to make it stick to the car use a little bit of rubbing alcohol mixed with water to create a solution it will make it stick longer. If it gets to sticky or tacky when applying use that water mixture of baby soap and water to pull up. Then re apply. after it is finished hear down with a heat gun. Trim edges with razor blade. to pop bubples use a insulin needle to suck out all of the excess air pockets! Hope this helps!
Hello and thank you for nice video I have a question today I installed ppf for hood but the problem is a lot of milky spot under ppf what I have to do?
I dont know for me the question would be after several years would there be a fade of color on parts not wrapped...and I just always waxed my cars and a few stones never bothered me...maybe if it was a porsche??
Hi quick question since you used to have a renegade , what roof basket would fit the car nicely , I was looking at the Thule and rhino rack , I have the oem roof rails that’s you had used on your renegade and I bought some cross rails that fit Nicely on the roof rails so just wondering what basket would fit it nice
marlon cordova it should but I will be a little harder to apply, also make sure to pre cut and use a heat gun to make sure it sticks after application ;) good luck!
@@MadelnMachines ahhh you might be right but i would of had to strain the chunks out first. Another good choice is cream of mushroom since its white but it also has chunks.
While this is a very good idea to protect the hood from scratches, I wonder after several years under the sun if one decides to remove the film, half the hood is gonna look brand new and half the hood is gonna be faded.
It definitely has adhesive. The water helps it slip until ready to squeegee. When he says, let it get tacky, he is allowing the adhesive to activate and overpower the slip agent.
@@BnMGarage ok but I want to cover parts and seal from water so no water should be used while applying also. I want to use double side tape to glue pure thin diy solar cells 15cm x 8 cm units to the top of my car and needs some transparent weather and waterproof cover on top of it, still dont know what could be used yet
@@fotoamgamgfoto3695 ah, I see, then it definitely sounds like the thicker viny would work better. If the solar cells could survive the tack and slick, the ppf could be an option as well.
It protects your paint and clear coat. Its also really good at protecting from rocks and bugs splatting all over your front end which damages your paint. Bugs excrete acid and there hard exoskeletons dig into your clear coat damaging it. Im getting this done on my front bumper simply because of the bugs. Its much easier to clean the bugs off as well and without damaging the integrity of your paint.
Anyone watching this understand you won’t be able to do this and almost every bodyshop won’t attempt this either, there are companies that will charge a ton for this and we all pay em because this is an incredibly hard skill
Some random guy did it their first time on camera, posted to UA-cam because it's actually quite easy and he wanted to share... If that's not clear it's me. I watched several tutorials, wanted to show what worked for me if it did, and Wala done. Most anyone can do it, if I can
@@firebir11 Not quite minutes, mine is the half the hood, and half the fenders, and the whole bumper, on an acadia. So not even close to minutes. I bought the good stuff with a 7 year guarantee this time. Free replacement if anything happens to it before then (except for stupid obvious damage)
how the holy hell do you do this without bubbles or inconsistencies... I got 3M clear vinyl and I can't lay it without it looking like shit after... what is the secret?!@?@
You make a mockery of those “professional” installers and without tattoos, shorts with a chain, vans etc ... how is this possible ! If you are worried about fingerprints why not wear thin rubber gloves ?
Hello, just your local technician I professionally install these for a living I do say it can be difficult but I love my job! I would recommend using baby soap instead of dish soap it is more gentle and not as harsh as dish soap. That was one thing I learned when I first started. No clue how long you have been doing it but some of those chemicals can be harmful and if you don't get all of the water out it can actually ruin the paint underneath the clear bra I found that out the hard way. Otherwise this was a very great application process. When you go to make it stick to the car use a little bit of rubbing alcohol mixed with water to create a solution it will make it stick longer. If it gets to sticky or tacky when applying use that water mixture of baby soap and water to pull up. Then re apply. after it is finished hear down with a heat gun. Trim edges with razor blade. To pop bubbles use a insulin needle to suck out all of the excess air pockets! For any prep after you clean the car wipe off with adhesive remover then rubbing alcohol before spray down with the soapy water solution. I just summed up some of it so it is easier to understand for all of you. Hope this helps! Any questions feel free to ask me! Good luck you're doing great so far!
Thanks for the tips!
So initially I would use the baby soap and water mixture. But then when I’m ready to actually squeegee it I would apply the alcohol and water mixture under it ? And if it gets too tacky I would reapply the other solution under it?
Followed your instructions for my Suburban and it turned out well. A lot more angles on the front of the hood than my wife's car, so her car should be a lot easier. Your instructions were easy to follow and the whole thing took about an hour. Looks good! Thank you.
Awesome glad it turned out well and glad I could help.
Great way to learn PPF installation. It was very helpful. Thanks a million.
I tried this out and it worked great. Thanks for posting this!
How is the shine ?
Great video. I want to tackle my truck with this film. 2024 silverado 2500. Thx for the clear information.
Very good video. Thanks. It is now 3 years later. Did it hold up well? Also, and you may not remember, those little water bubbles trapped that were supposed to disappear with evaporation, did that happen? Did the bubbles just disappear?
Great reply JR 🙄
I haven't done mine yet, but I think you did a great job on the video. Thanks for taking the time!
Sure thing, good luck on yours!
Great job and very clearly explained! Thank you!
Looks good, did I miss where you used the isopropyl alcohol and water mix?
yes I was wondering what the alcohol was for as well.
sheamurai to remove any grease, dust, wax, residue etc left on the panel. That way the wrap gets the best possible adhesion.
That was on a 2017 Toyota Highlander i own and after three years it started getting black spots under the film, which was where small pin holes where in the film and it looked terrible, and was turning black alone the edges, it was on the hood, mirrors, under door handles, door edges, rear bumper, I removed it all, looks like a new car
Then you reinstall it again 😂
How often do you re-apply it? Can you make a video showing the removal of the old one before re-applying a new
What’s that supposed to mean? Literally take off the old one and put on the new one like he showed in the video lol
@@Kyezie131 I suppose he's asking how long it lasts / how often do you need to replace it
If you want to remove you kan use a steamer or hot water loosens the glue
I've had mine for 6 years before trading the vehicle in and had no problem
It should be re applied after 6 months if you up keep it will be great for the car if you do not it can actually be harmful to the paint underneath. I don't tuck my edges due to that reason. this is my professional opinion. yes it protects from chipping but if apply incorrectly it can damage the car.
thank you, you saved me over a grand, I did this on my 2022 Mercedes and it turned out great
Glad I could help
Hi, I have some questions please.
How do you know if you have too little soap or too much soap is there a way to check. I ask as surely there will be several variables that could make this different?
What squeegee do you recommend as if there are rolls or convex curves, how do I bend the hard card?
What tacky substance do you recommend for the edges, and how much would I use?
Thanks so much
The soap just put enough that is can slip. Ultimately you squeegee out all of it so no magic ratio.
The squeegee I recommend is in linked in the description. It is a nice firm plastic with felt edges so you don't scratch or damage anything.
The adhesive on the vinyl is what gets tacky. You just need to use isopropyl alcohol to spray off the soapy water. Let it dry a little, and then it is tacky to tuck the edges.
@@JrsGasolineAlley Jr's Gasoline Alley thanks, just having done a lot of research (me being me sorry) it's very clear that if it's cold the soap should be different if it's hot the soap should be different as well as other things. I heard there is a science to mixing the perfect bottle but have yet to come across the proper information, I was hoping you may know.
Again from research, it seems that the rubber squeegees are much better suited so the swueegee can bend? Hard cards which you are using apparently don't work that well. What do you think?
With the Alcohol, again how much is enough, if for example I'm using the same bottles as you, which I guess is 1litre? I'm guessing there's at set amount or a correct ratio?
Thanks again for your help. And thanks for coming back to me.
In the beginning of the video you said that you made a tac solution but I didn't notice where in the video that you used it could you maybe suggest where it should or would be used? Also in every other video I've watched people tend to use a heat gun is there a reason you didn't use one or is there specific situations in which you don't need it? Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
What about using a tac solution of water/alcohol. Get it all aligned and then tac the two upper corners. Keeps it from sliding around.
Really good job on the video. I'm gonna do my truck the same way
Great video brother, thanks for making it.
You didn’t use the tack solution? Supposed to use on the corners to anchor the film, I guess.
I regret not finding your video sooner.. Live in Arizona and well, WE HAVE FLYING STONES everywhere and my car is poop now..
😒
Next car!
Hi, just curious, when did you use the isopropyl alcohol & water mixture during the clear bra application?
I didn’t see him use it either
Nice job
I see that you installed the clear bra in Summer 2018.... is it still holding up well?
i bought a carbon vinyl from vivid. it was completely and i mean completely fucked in 6 months. ZERO!!!! uv protection. its fucked
lindseyhunt1090-GarageB Then you bought the wrong stuff or something dude. Don’t go around spreading miss information like that. This vivid clear is literally $10 per square foot, and works insanely good. I had a clear bra installed on my STI 8 years ago and unfortunately it has some yellowing, but barely noticeable. The newer stuff shouldn’t even yellow either.
@@Kyezie131 I bought vivid carbon vinyl wrap and its fucked... how am I lying... you just said you bought a clear bra and its yellowing.... hu?
@@lindseyhunt1090garageb Last time I checked this video wasnt about installing a carbon fibre wrap, so why answer a guy asking how this CLEAR wrap holds up? Plus you say it was completely fucked but give no circumstances. You probably keep your car outside with no covering 365 days a year lmfao. I'm rying to give some info to the original commenter.
@@Kyezie131 the guy asked how it held up. I said I bought a product from vivid and it was fucked in 6 months. The car is kept outside. I dont really think that's an excuse to have it be fucked in 6 months. It cracked and pealed. Also the finish is completely dull and the carbon style finish is just brown and you cant see it anymore. It looks like it was on fire. Sorry for replying to a question. Have a good day
I tried doing my hood. Tons of bubbles after applying and wherever I pulled it up adhesive marks. I don't get it
I always though you're not supposed to use dish soap on cars as it's can strip the wax or protective coating off the paint. I mean, i guess it doesn't really matter since there will be a vinyl layer, but it still doesn't sit well with me. Would using carwash soap work just as well?
I’m a installer, use baby soap 👊
What do you spray ? Wath is the mixture ? Soap and water ???
That looks sweet man! Thanks for sharing.
Thank you, good luck!
Thanks bru for your tutorial. They charge 500 clams for that in my town. Freaking insane, Amazon sells the bra for 30
Its all labor
Thought soap to attach .and 50/50 to clean off .
How much drop of dishwasher soap do you put into your spray bottle ?
He is a rookie at explaining
Not sure when you use the alcohol mix?
Awesome! How often should we replace the film?
How does the clear wrap adhere to the car though, is an adhesive activated by the water or ?? I have some I want to apply to an epxy resing finish, but I dont detect any kind of adhesive.
Generally isopropyl alcohol and water activates the glue than squeegee to force it down flat
what do you spray on clear bra before sticking it on? soap? what type? how much?
How does it look after 3 years? Is there a line you can see, colour difference?
I only kept the car for about a year and a half after doing this but it was great
@4:24 what did you spray fhe car wear? it the bottle looks blue? Not water right>
Nice video my friend
Thank you 👍
Do you have anymore videos of doing curved body parts? Like mirrors and other stuff?
What liquid do you spray on the vinyl and car to make it adhere?
Hey I am a clear bra technician when you go to make it stick to the car use a little bit of rubbing alcohol mixed with water to create a solution it will make it stick longer. If it gets to sticky or tacky when applying use that water mixture of baby soap and water to pull up. Then re apply. after it is finished hear down with a heat gun. Trim edges with razor blade. to pop bubples use a insulin needle to suck out all of the excess air pockets! Hope this helps!
hey man great video, you made it look really easy! How is it holding up now?
Really well. One of the better subtle mods I have done
Good video man! Thanks for the upload!
Looks pretty straight forward. I'd assume doing the entire hood would be just as easy.
Is it self healing like the ones I see online where you can take a heat gun to it and scratches go away?
This is not.
Hello and thank you for nice video I have a question today I installed ppf for hood but the problem is a lot of milky spot under ppf what I have to do?
What has ended up happening with your install?
Good video.
Cool video
Sweet Jesus, it looks great!
I dont know for me the question would be after several years would there be a fade of color on parts not wrapped...and I just always waxed my cars and a few stones never bothered me...maybe if it was a porsche??
Just because this is a cheap car doesn't mean you shouldn't take care of it
Hi quick question since you used to have a renegade , what roof basket would fit the car nicely , I was looking at the Thule and rhino rack , I have the oem roof rails that’s you had used on your renegade and I bought some cross rails that fit Nicely on the roof rails so just wondering what basket would fit it nice
Personally, I think these Rola roof top baskets look nice: amzn.to/2M1MV9p I have seen some mounted up on the forums.
When did you use the IPA and water solution? Did you use only soapy water to set the film?
Soapy water at the beginning, IPA water mixture to clean off the excess when you squeegee down the film and to set the edges
Good job buddy, can I apply it on an inside car door panel to protect it from steps?? Thanks
You sure can. Take your time as with the funny shape of the doorsill you will just need to be careful
Looks great. I just don't understand how you would do the hood entirely. Do you stack the layers or buy a 4 ft wide vinyl?
Theres 60 inches size of ppf clear bra.
Thanks.
Can you put this on saftey glasses?
It's a bit opaque
I'm glad I found your video they wanted $1,700 to do the front of my car 🤣
Yikes
hey how match sticker ?
What thickness film do you use? I found a dealer that have 3M SGH12 and SGH6 film (0.30mm and 0.15mm)
I am not sure how thick it is that I purchased, but the link is in the description.
Definitely a worthy investment
Agreed
Good job, gonna try this myself in the spring. Also, what is that instrumental at the end?
Take your time and make sure the hood is very........... very clean!
Can this work with my mountain bike
marlon cordova it should but I will be a little harder to apply, also make sure to pre cut and use a heat gun to make sure it sticks after application ;) good luck!
@@LaRockeritam19so you do need to add heat after it dries?
Calvin Wong you can, or just leave it on the sun for a few minutes to settle
What did he spray
?
How is this PPF holding up after your install years later?
nice vid bro, thanks!
thank you
What is in the spray bottle when spraying the film
Soap and water
I like what you did can you tell me more precise the mixture for the soup and water and alcohol.
Thanks
Don't use soup
@@MadelnMachines words of a wise man.. i used tomato soup and now my white car is red.
@@darkshadowsx5949 No that's only for red cars! If you absolutely have to, make sure it's cream of chicken.
@@MadelnMachines ahhh you might be right but i would of had to strain the chunks out first. Another good choice is cream of mushroom since its white but it also has chunks.
While this is a very good idea to protect the hood from scratches, I wonder after several years under the sun if one decides to remove the film, half the hood is gonna look brand new and half the hood is gonna be faded.
I don't know that modern paint has too too much of an issue.
Do a ceramic coating over it and protects against UV rays
I had it put on my 2015 Ram and it not only protected my hood but no, there was no discoloration. I just traded it this past week.
My understanding is that you DO NOT want to use quick detailer wax as you want ZERO wax on the paint when you apply the film.
Thanks man, it really help
your welcome. Hope the project goes well.
can i skip the clay part with polishing?
You should clay prior to polishing anyway.
Good job brother.....
I've see info to not use more than 17% alcohol, and use distilled water.
so it is not sticky like a vinyl? I need something which holds down things below it
It definitely has adhesive. The water helps it slip until ready to squeegee. When he says, let it get tacky, he is allowing the adhesive to activate and overpower the slip agent.
@@BnMGarage ok but I want to cover parts and seal from water so no water should be used while applying also. I want to use double side tape to glue pure thin diy solar cells 15cm x 8 cm units to the top of my car and needs some transparent weather and waterproof cover on top of it, still dont know what could be used yet
@@fotoamgamgfoto3695 ah, I see, then it definitely sounds like the thicker viny would work better. If the solar cells could survive the tack and slick, the ppf could be an option as well.
@@BnMGarage I think about not to put on some kithchen sink side sealing transparent tape, it is waterproof and strong but for UV don1t know :(
Is that the 3m clear with adhesive already on it?
Yep no adhesive needed
Great job! Seems easy enough. What kind of squeegee was that?
Thanks!
You bet!
Nice job, good video, thanks bud!
You got it thanks for watching.
I can tell you had a hard time with the far right corner I hate it when everything goes good except for one area
what is dishwasher and water ratio for your soapy water?
ITL - only a little in a litre of water (less than 2 mL). Too much soap can mess with the adhesive.
How long does this last once you do it?
3-4years probably longer if it doesnt sit in the sun 100% of the time
What is the function of this wrap? Does this wrap make your car looks more shinny?
It protects your paint and clear coat. Its also really good at protecting from rocks and bugs splatting all over your front end which damages your paint. Bugs excrete acid and there hard exoskeletons dig into your clear coat damaging it. Im getting this done on my front bumper simply because of the bugs. Its much easier to clean the bugs off as well and without damaging the integrity of your paint.
Anyone watching this understand you won’t be able to do this and almost every bodyshop won’t attempt this either, there are companies that will charge a ton for this and we all pay em because this is an incredibly hard skill
Some random guy did it their first time on camera, posted to UA-cam because it's actually quite easy and he wanted to share...
If that's not clear it's me. I watched several tutorials, wanted to show what worked for me if it did, and Wala done. Most anyone can do it, if I can
Looks great man. How much time did you leave it to dry?
A few hours in the sun
Nightmare to remove after it yellows and cracks but nice while it lasts. Definitely protects the paint though.
N English ppf has come a long way. Should get 5-10 years out of this.
Exactly
Get in the habit of replacing it every year or two, to avoid any potential problems. Only takes a minutes to replace anyway.
@@firebir11 Not quite minutes, mine is the half the hood, and half the fenders, and the whole bumper, on an acadia. So not even close to minutes. I bought the good stuff with a 7 year guarantee this time. Free replacement if anything happens to it before then (except for stupid obvious damage)
So much easier if you get the pre cut to car kind
True, but more $
Not bad. Nice Job
Thanks, next up is doing the back bumper.
Where can I buy some
Never mind
You said alcohol and water you did not mention the amount of soap and water mixture.
Just a little bit of soap. you only need the slipperiness and you don't want it to be super soapy.
Use dawn dish soap and water to clay it works better
Thanks for the tip!
I never saw him use the tack solution....
So its been a year and a half, how is it holding up? Is there any bubbles that have gotten underneath? or any downsides that you have seen?
Like a dream. Glad I did it.
Will it stick if we don't apply alcohol?
The alcohol helps the water evaporate from under the PPF.
@@JrsGasolineAlley do you have to spray the alcohol on the adhesive before applying it or when you’re ready to squeegee?
Will this be strong enough to protect my mountain bike from rocks
I mean it couldn't hurt
Hey your James the bike guy!
How'd ya know, lol.
@@JrsGasolineAlley HAHA! Bikes and cars! what can I say??
Nice job👍🇦🇺
Thanks!
how the holy hell do you do this without bubbles or inconsistencies... I got 3M clear vinyl and I can't lay it without it looking like shit after... what is the secret?!@?@
Take your time and it lays down nicely.
You make a mockery of those “professional” installers and without tattoos, shorts with a chain, vans etc ... how is this possible !
If you are worried about fingerprints why not wear thin rubber gloves ?
so tattoos are a bad thing lol?
Underside wrap is ESSENTIAL. don't do that and you WILL find chips on the edge.
Worth doing all day every day especially on black car
Good tip.
I had mine professionally applied and he did not wrap the edges. Just about every area has a chip on the edge, definitly wrap the edges!!!
How long did this take?
9:37
not gone buff the hood?!
exactly what i thought. even after claying, no buffing? good video otherwise though
No need. Basically, no miles on this car when I did it and the hood looked nice.
Not Bad
Thanks
Wow bro thank you very much
what mixture of spray did you use to apply?
Dish soap and water
@@JrsGasolineAlley soap and water is to move the film around and the squeegie but what do you spray under the film to make it stick?
I don't know about you guys but to me looks like a lot more than 6" look more like 12"