Shadowdark Reviewed
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- Опубліковано 5 сер 2024
- Jeff sits back to share his thoughts about the old school fueled, fantasy roleplaying game Shadowdark from The Arcane Library. The game focuses on dungeon delving and the book contains all you need to get stuck in. The corebook had a hugely successful Kickstarter by pulling in over $1.2 million but is the finished product deserving of all the hype it received during the crowdfunding run? You're about to find out!
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0:00 Introduction
3:20 Taking a look inside and discussing Shadowdark
25:54 Final thoughts and review score
32:09 Wrapping up
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#ShadowdarkRPG #TheArcaneLibrary #TTRPGs - Ігри
Shadow Dark is a fun game. It definitely works as an excellent convention game and I like the way it approaches the classes, magic, and light. It also has plenty of handy tables and the supplemental cursed scrolls and mini dungeons really expand your options with seers, witches, vikings, desert riders, etc. It's just a good old fashioned rpg that allows you to play classic fantasy adventures with a group of friends.
What is new and original about the system is in its realisation of the potential inside the Old School and 5e - that's good enough a reinvention of the wheel for me.
I interviewed Kelsey in the fall and asked her what part of the game she wished turned out better - overland travel was what she said.
I’m releasing a “hex crawling” alternative option in the next Cursed Scroll! The method in the book is serviceable, but I wish in hindsight that I’d had a bit more fun with it and expanded it a bit.
Very nice! I am curious about Cursed Scroll! I always love to see a zine available right away for a new TTRPG system. ~ Jeff
@@Thegaminggang I have not looked at them yet.
@@TheArcaneLibrary I’m looking forward to it, Kelsey!
@@TheArcaneLibrary I'm very excited for this. Is there an approximate release date?
I will say, for my 59 yr old eyes I appreciate the page layout and font of the Shadowdark book, as well as the Cursed Scroll zines.
Aesthetically, I have come to like the big print style. There are a lot of books that do that, Hubris being one of my favorites. It is easy to use at the table and it just looks good.
I have also come to appreciate stripped-down rules that are crunchy enough to be interesting, but light enough to get the hell out of the way of the action. I will more than likely get this when the physical books are available.
As a grognard myself, I find it weird that there is any negativity about this title. I imagine most grogs have shelves full of beloved and well-thumbed "It is pretty much D&D, but they do a few things differently." I know I do.
As a violinist/fiddler, I gotta give you props for the music you chose for the initial intro roll. 😊
Shadowdark seems to get an irrational amount of hostility and snobbery from some of the OSR crowd. It's really dumb, there has never been any pretence about what it is, you can get the quick start material for free and that has all of the mechanics. It's everything you need to run the game. The full book is mostly adds resources for running the game from random tables.
I've run a few sessions and the entire table love it. Being mechanically close to 5E does make it easier to switch between, but the writing being so clear is really the killer feature. Personally I would argue that Shadowdark is an OSR title in the true sense: the mechanics are rebuilt through a modern lens but the maths is very close. If you take a basic D&D creature and do the standard conversions of AC and THAC0 the numbers line up with Shadowdark. Ben Milton has talked about how that works in Knave, and it's kind of the same thing. The main difference is that it's not really a supported feature, but if you are aware of OSR and converting Basic material it's pretty seamless in practice.
I supported the game early on, mainly because I found Kelsey such a nice, approachable person. The core rulebook was published as pdf shortly after the kickstarter campaign was completed, and many more supplements came out over the following months, made by Kelsey, other rpg designers, and numerous fans alike. The community seems just very supportive and creative.
That's why I see Shadowdark a bit like a "universal old-school fantasy" game. It's very flexible, yet with some simple additions, you can create different atmospheres and support different play styles.
I haven't corresponded with Kelsey a ton but she does strike me as what I like to refer to as "good people." I always enjoy showing my support for the "good people" in our hobby! ~ Jeff
I am trying to make it a more heroic game with more robust PC options. It's a good chassis to build on. Far easier than trying to nerf 5e/PF2e.
Give me white space! Give me text with room to breathe! Give me focused and concise prose conveying their meaning clearly, it is worth the price! I have been out of school for decades, I'm done with text books, technical manuals and stereo instructions!
But I love TTRPGs so I struggle, I cope and I adjust my glasses just one more time.
For me Shadowdark is, beside a fun game, a Rosetta stone or bridge between OSR and modern games systems. Within the d20 universe It's probably the easiest to hack with consistency of results. It is a transparent and predictable platform upon which to kit bash.
I kinda like the larger font because my eyes are old and tired, but I get the desire for more content or a thinner book. I was a tad shocked by how thick the book is.
I moved my group from Hardcore 5e (Runehammer) to Shadowdark, when the Kickstarter dropped (yes I backed after watching the review from PDM - Dungeoncraft, I believe only Ben Milton - Questing Beast was paid to review it).
I would have compared it more to a OD&D-BX/AD&D 5e crossover than just a sidestep from 5e (I started with AD&D in the 80's), much more role play focused than roll play
Really liked the streamlined way it was set out, less bloat and much more concise as you said, so really easy to just toss out what you don't like. all the old BX / AD&D modules can be run straight as they are without any conversion.
The minimalist aspect of the character classes and character sheet reminded me more of writing up our character sheets back in the day.
😈😈😈
As someone who cut his GMing teeth running fantasy adventures with ICRPG, ShadowDark is in many ways the fantasy game I was already playing, but bolstered with tremendous GM resources. I agree that more talents would be welcome, but my favorite feature of the book are all of the tables that allow me to run a game almost completely at random, as you mentioned. I love being as surprised as the players by what comes next, and ShadowDark provides a wonderful toolbox to run games in that style.
Great review as always Jeff. As someone who’s been playing role-playing games since the mid 80s, I was super excited about kickstarting this game system. I’ve looked through it and I really like what I see so I haven’t had a chance to play yet.
Hope you enjoy it!
Not my cup of tea, but it looks like a generally well designed game. With so many folks looking to try new stuff after playing 5e, hopefully it'll serve as a good gateway. I'd be more interested in playing it than I would 5e, that's for sure.
I accidentally double payed Kickstarter for Shadowdark but got a great ttrpg out of it and am very satisfied.
I love how the Spell system is similar to DCC and so I got rid of tier system and used it combined with Easy D6 Casting Types system.
Maybe someday I'll develope my own fantasy
ttrpg system also.
Thank you! I am happy that I have not pulled the trigger on getting this yet. You have steered me towards considering a PDF. I am still on the waitlist for the physical book as I feel this will be a great way to open my table(s) to other games beyond 5e.
Hey Jeff! I just ran a Shadowdark session at the inaugural Philadelphia Area Gaming Expo (PAGE) convention and it was a smashing success! Hope to see you at PAGE someday!
I wanted to get on that table,but scheduling worked against me.
That is awesome! And for PAGE? Who knows? Maybe some day. :) ~ Jeff
I think I am going to add this one to the list, and at least I should be able to read it without my glasses. Looks like an interesting blend of several mechanics I like from other systems.
Hope you enjoy it!
Thank you for the review.
OSR’s become more of a big tent title that includes retroclones, but isn’t exclusive to them. It began with retroclones, it didn’t stay there.
The OSR definition has never really been solidly nailed down. I like your idea -- or maybe the other way to approach this is just say OSR (for retroclones) and OSR-like for the others. Not sure.
Yah, I wrote a blog post on this. But I think even spelled out domains are filtered by UA-cam because I'm not seeing it.@@quantus5875
Excellent review.
Excellent game.
I really appreciate having a quick, low prep dungeoncrawl game with some easy tables where neither I nor the players have to learn a ton of lore before rolling some dice to get some pretend people into trouble!
As you say, Jeff, "Hell, Yes!" It's kinda got that feeling of pick up and play it.
I also think there's a lot of mileage in the idea of Shadowdark's modularity making it a good baseline for people to make their 5e of choice. The structure is great an quite robust, so even a beginner can add stuff they like to make a more streamlined game they'd like to play rather than having to stress over what to strip away from the D&D kitchen sink.
Awesome review Jeff!! Actually, IMO the best Shadowdark review I have seen to date!! On my end, I'd give SD a 9.5! I think where SD shines is like you said it is a GREAT adjacent game for those that know 5E and want to dip their feet into OSR. I actually have the point of view that Kelsey's game will help the OSR community, because like you said the market isn't for us grognards (who have already been playing OSRs. I started playing C&C in 2006 - although I guess depending on definition some will claim C&C is not a true OSR 😂 , i.e. does an OSR game have to be a true retroclone? ) -- it's a lot of the 5E players -- and those players I believe will discover other OSR games through SD. I agree with you that the PDF is a little pricey though, but at least there is a free Quickstart available.
I like shadow dark I have the PDF. I agree with you thoughts and opinions.
11:29 While it's not the main way Shadowdark was designed to be run, in her list of various game modes, Kelsey included Hunter Mode, in which you gain XP from creatures at a rate of 0.5 XP per creature level, if I remember correctly.
Great review. Thanks Jeff🇺🇲🇺🇲
My pleasure!
I kind of dig the talent rolls, I think that sort of sets it apart from a lot of other systems. They fit thematically with each class but you're still sort of wondering what's going to happen when you level. Thousand Thousand Islands did that with some sample characters and it sort of added to the worldbuilding with that one. I saw there were ways to subvert the torch mechanic if, I guess, players start stuffing their pack with torches. Not sure if that would start to feel adversarial after a while, but I guess early games were expected to sort of be fully real time in some ways, like days in real life meaning the characters sat around for days waiting. Not that involved here (I'm pretty sure every character I've ever made would have died if I'd done that) but it sort of hearkens to it. NSR is a lot about remixing, as are OSR games that try to add new ideas (big tradition about citing influences in the notes), so I see it as a new iteration of a trend that's been going on for years. Dig the art, too.
A sensible, balanced look at the game! Shocking! :D
Very quick to get into and light on rules, pretty fun, & makes for good beer & pretzels or starter play. I had a good time with it.
Good stuff!
Yet another PDF for my collection.
I was so close to buying this, if only for that cover art. I'm a sucker for metal aesthetics.
The only reason why I didn't get it was because I don't need a game that's 5e adjacent and Id rather have something more OSR compatible, though it's very enticing.
I would like to try it though!
Go through and smooth the pages open at each page and then the book will open and sit flat and then close without issue.
Intro: asthetics, sound, style, etc. - A++
Intro: length - My guy!
I initially backed the Kickstarter (swept up by the hype), but then I saw a flip through similar to what you did here (sans the review portion) and decided it was not for me. I stopped playing 5e years ago when I discovered other great games like OSE, ICRPG, DCC, EZD6, Monster of the Week, and many others. I just found Shadowdark to be unnecessary for me. I own all the games I listed (and a whole lot more) and I found that Shadowdark wasn't really bringing anything new to the table for me. All those great mechanics already exist in the games I own. And I'm not trying to recruit 5e players to the OSR with Shadowdark; I use other gateway games like DCC and ICRPG. I did have the opportunity to play a couple of sessions of Shadowdark with online friends who backed the Kickstarter (I ultimately decided to cancel my pledge) and I'm glad I did. Those sessions provided me validation that Shadowdark is not for me. For those that are playing and enjoying it, good for you. I just discovered I didn't need it on my shelf or on my regular gaming schedule.
Do you mean Yorkville Illinois
No disrespect to Shadowdark, but give me OSE any day.
It is Basic D&D with some 5E bits like armor and weapon traits, and non-Vancian magic. These things I like. I just wished it had more classes in the core book. The original 4 choices are classic, but I like having more. Still, the non-Vancian Magic is the biggest selling point. I've never liked that part of D&D.
I completely agree as far as more classes. Thankfully, we're seeing a lot of new classes in the Cursed Scroll zines and they aren't too difficult to create as homebrews either. ~ Jeff
I too felt my physical copy was not well made. I don't trust it to hold up. The system is good but I wish it wasn't so committed to OSR styles as far as super weak and generic PCs. I wanted a game that took 5e/PF2e ideas but nerfed the complexity and power level. Reapers new game, Dungeon Dwellers coming out this summer might be what I wanted.
Also consider Shadowdark's "Pulp Mode" if you want stronger PCs. For less generic PCs, I let my players freely choose the character's background (basically a one-sentence background story) and make the background have mechanical effects, e.g. advantage on rolls related to the background.
Thanks for your honest review, far from the hype :)
It is certainly a good game but I didn't see anything that justifies the price tag. I'll pass.
The one thing I like is rolling for spells but that’s pretty much it. This seems overly watered down but the book is made bloated by its format.
I think this was as successful as it was due to timing. If I recall this was announced when WotC started their fuckery, correct me if I’m wrong.
I do think this might be good for someone who has never played a TTRPG and wanting to get into the hobby due to its simplicity.
While - to my knowledge - Kelsey Dionne never claimed Shadowdark to be revolutionary, some "reviewers" definitely did, going with silly hyperboles like "it's a watershed in the TTRPG hobby". That - coupled with the sponsored reviews and the massive media coverage over a few days - cast a shadow over the honesty of some of the people involved. Overall it felt a bit like a too heavy-handed marketing operation. But the game is fine and as far as I've seen the drama died off pretty quickly.
Thank you! Hahahaha, you are right - I have not personally made that claim. 😅 Hyoerbole seems to be part of the typical review process in both the “for” and “against” categories in my experience.
Because it touches on my integrity, I’d like to mention that I did not pay, sponsor, or provide benefit (besides review PDFs) to anyone apart from Ben Milton of Questing Beast. His normal procedure is to charge a sponsorship fee for a Kickstarter look-through. He disclosed that right away, though. I’d hate for you to think I or anyone else did unethical shenanigans here - I think I’m just a known element to some of the people who reviewed Shadowdark due to my prior publishing history, plus the timeliness of the Kickstarter going live, that prompted several outlets to talk about it.
In all honesty, I didn't believe anyone outside of Ben Milton had received any sort of payment to provide video coverage. I did want to mention in the video that I'd heard the grumblings of the "pay for play" but didn't look into it because it didn't affect me in the least; it wasn't going to affect my review at all.
Yah, you need to remember reviewers are selling their reviews as a product so they gild the lily a bit.
@@ThegaminggangI think you were very gracious in what you said, Jeff! 😊 Thank you for extending me the benefit of the doubt and not jumping on the rumor train.
@@TheArcaneLibrary Thanks for chiming in! As far as I'm concerned, I definitely don't think you - or anybody else involved - did anything unethical. I was just clarifying what I think is the origin of the "but it's not revolutionary" comments floating around.
OSR oversimplified.. I didn't dig it at all though I was initially interested its simplification and streamlining which at first appears to be its strength turned out to be its biggest drawback.. Leveling in the game is boring, the talents are bland and generally tastless +X to a stat and 1-2 slightly more flavorful ones per class. Extremely simple combat system.. this would work great as a dungeon diving board game but as an RPG? it's very dull, it does nothing we haven't seen before, it was amazingly hyped up by UA-cam influncers as the holy grail but several of them were paid by the author. I couldnt give it better than 4/10, this is a good game to run a one off adventure for new players or at a convention but as a campaign? There are numerous better games that offer streamlining and clarity while offering more flavor and customization, Forbidden Lands comes immediately to mind. Shadowdark was a complete pass for me and I'm happy I canceled my Kickstarter right before launch when I read the beta. I have since read the final pdf and it didn't change my mind at all.
Totally fair opinion, but I want to clear this one bit up - no reviewers were paid or sponsored (or anything otherwise) besides Ben Milton (Questing Beast), which is standard procedure for him. He mentioned that right away at the beginning of his look-through video!