Steel vs Steel a view on European vs US-Scubatanks
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2024
- Introducing Colin Richards (ISE in the US) and discussing weight / Vol. differences in European vs US Scuba tanks
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Rules of thumbs are always right until they're wrong, love it! Thanks Colin and Achim!
Been diving in Australia with 12 ltr /100 cf steel with wet suits for ever, never heard this stuff before. In fact when I had an alloy tank 30 years ago I hated the extra lead required.
I agree, his discussions lately are very weak for such a talented diver. I would be a patreon member but if this is what you get I'll wait.
I’ve been diving about 10 years traveling extensively and taking every training class I can. I own and both steel and aluminum singles and doubles. Due to cold water where I live I often dive a dry suit at home and I’ve never heard of these so called rules he’s talking about. Would really like to know where this is coming from.
Good video! I've seen these rules thrown around loads, same as rules about always steel for back-gas and always ali for stages without any consideration to if this is right or not. Good to see you encouraging thinking divers! :)
How about a video on low pressure and high pressure tanks. Is there really a difference. I’ve been pumping my LP 95 ‘s to 3600 for over 10 years without issue along with the most others in cave country. Lots of different opinions on this.
I got a Faber 15.2L euro tank, I’m in Florida so can I get it filled? Or get DOT stamps. It’s personal use. Not for hire
i live in the us and dive here. and whether i have on a 3mm shorty or my dry suit i use my lp95 tanks whether it single or doubled up. no problems
Hmm, never heard of this before... I have been diving in the US in a wet suit with steel tanks for years. Steel was suggested to me when I got certified so I would not have to carry as much weight to get and stay down.
I'm better weighted with a steel tank as well. 7mm wet suit is no joke. Sure a Drysuit might be ideal for 55*f water but i can't afford one yet.
Even with a 5mm wet suit i would be fine with a steel tank (assuming). Of course not having a S/S backplate and just a plastic BCD is breaking the rules too...
The rule is referring to doubles. With HP100 doubles you can easily be 20 lbs negative at the start of a dive, and 4-5lbs negative at the end of a dive.
Hi Guys. Actually, I dive US aluminums and steel tanks both wet and dry. It's really about how much extra weight I need or don't need. If I dive a wetsuit with steel tanks (US,) I pretty much need no extra weight at all. If I dive a drysuit with Al's, I need a lot of weight - around 12 additional pounds (I dive sm so often no backplate, unless diving a Toddy system.) My favorite tanks are my LP 50s which again, I dive both wet and dry, including with my sm rebreather. With those tanks, in a wetsuit, I need almost no weight. In a drysuit, about 4.5 kgs. or 9 pounds. My LP85's really work best with a drysuit. I do not dive HP's sm at all, only bm, but we use those bm both wet and dry as well. Point is, whatever tank(s) I use, I can make it work if I know the buoyancy characteristics and proper weighting for it.
This is the best reply here. Sounds like you were taught properly how to actually use your head and think. 😎🙌
@@pinnacledivingco Trained with the best over years (guys like Ben Reymenants, Steve Martin, Edd Sorenson, Matt DeBerry) then figured out what works best for me, my body type, SAC/RMV rates. It's all about the right tools for the right type of diving. I mainly teach sm these days from OW through tech, and my favorite tanks are AL63's and LP50's. Very similar buoyancy characteristics and LP50's filled to 3,000psi have around the same volume as the 63's. In caves or deep, if no rebreather, then the LP85's with AL80 stages.
@@rabukan5842 Love it! 😎🙌🏻
I never heard of this rule here in the states. Steel tanks equal drysuit, ok.
What I am really curious about is, where Collin dives at in the USA. Here in the Orlando/Tampa Area of Florida, everyone I know dives Steel. We used HP100 and HP120 in pool sessions, and check out dives. I probably had over 100 dives on my before I dove my first AL80, and I am not a Cave dive. I prefer to dive Lauderdale and the Keys. Now as an instructor, I find the HP80's to be an awesome pool tank check out dive tank.
Other people post about, steel v al and wet v Dry. Well, Steel in a swim trunks work great.
He is talking about diving doubles, not singles. AL80s doubles are quite popular in Florida specifically because it is often too hot for a drysuit, and you aren't nearly as negative at the start of a dive.
Interesting. I am a Canadian diver and have never heard the wet/dry Al/Steel rule. My group use HP steel (3500 psi) almost exclusively with wet and dry suits and never had an issue setting up balance. With a one piece 7mm wet suit I use 18 lbs of lead and a 30 lb lift bladder. Either dumping the lead, or inflating the bladder gives me significant positive buoyancy. In warm southern waters it is a different story. An HP steel would not only be an issue for surfacing without the bladder, but also annoying as far as off centre weight distribution. The Al80 or Al100 shine in the tropics! Great point for discussion. B
Excellent video.
Surprised at no mention of redundant bladder wing as alternative to drysuit as redundant buoyancy for steel twinset. Oversight or not? If not oversight - rationale on why not acceptable. Thanks.
I do not answer here anymore on a regular base - but in this case... If you take a deeper look in thic channel and ISE as an agency the question is kind obsolet. but actually it is a great idea for a video in itself as the double bladder wing is THE example for everything we consider wrong.
@@CoastalDevelopment Spending a bunch of extra $ on a dual bladders seems pointless. Now you get to deal with an extra infiltrator hose flapping all over the place. And a wing you can't fully inflate with one hose - meaning it is larger than needed just for the sake of it.
InnerSpace Explorers - ISE a video on this would be good
@@gregbruner1918 There are reasons against dual bladder wings, but those aren't it. If you have a hose flapping around you didn't do a very good job rigging your setup. And a dual bladder wing is literally the same size as a single bladder wing, you never have both wings inflated at the same time. The only time you inflate the second bladder, is the occasional static test at home, and when you have a bladder failure.
Yes the topic of "no double bladder wing" would be a great video ... balanced rig or not, if a downward current sucks you down (case of the French pass accident for example in New Zealand : from 15 to 90m, cf. Simon Mitchel), better have a buoyancy redundancy ...
Hey,
It seems that your links in the description are not working ;)
I dive with a 15 liter steel tank weth and dry. Never heard about this. Never had A issue with tis set up, al of my dive buddies dive that way.
The key word is tanks, not tank.
12l cylinders are about 100cf .. so are more than a Alu 80 ..
28 years diving and never heard this rule, I'm calling BS.
Steel tank and 7/5mm wet suit, plus 3mm shorty underneath, 5mm boots, 3mm hood, gloves (
Colin Grant that is very strange. As a novice diver I had 14.2kg faber steel tank coupled with a 7mm wetsuit. The minimum I could get under the surface was with 14kg of lead. At 20m then, my BCD was literally full of air (blowing off) trying to get neutral.
@@SuperScubaTim Was fine down to 40m with single and pony. 12 Kg lead I think, and never close to maxing out BCD. Is strange how things can appear the same, yet be so different and vise/versa. The apparent differences will be hidden in the details somewhere. Maybe your suit material was more compressible? I'm a fairly inexperienced diver myself. So, I really can't explain it. Maybe your BCD/wing was on the small side? My BCD was high capacity, specifically for cold water diving.
@@colingrant321 can I respectfully suggest you hunt out some video explaining wetsuit compression? It's a phenomenon where your buoyancy (near the surface) is fine, but at depth, the neoprene in your wetsuit compresses to the extent that it offers far less lift. This situation is very dangerous. I appreciate that you say above that you are fine with steel and your wetsuit combo and you're dived this to 40m - but it's stuff that's worth knowing. There was a good video of someone layered up in a lake, but I can't find a link. Maybe the guys at Inner Space can add to this?
@@SuperScubaTim please see my reply to @Colin Grant
BUT, it seems to me that you are massively over-weighted with 14kg of lead for a 7mm wetsuit and a 12l steel. It all depends on your build etc. but at a guess, I would say something like 8kg would be a starting point? Could you be holding a big lungful of air when you are doing your weight check? Are you exhaling properly to get below the surface?
It's normal for a suit that has been hung up for a long time, to take a bit more lead for a few dives but 14kg seems a bit excessive if not dangerous.
@@Graggs Thank's for your comments, it's appreciated. Learning about scuba should not cease upon passing open water, and each other course. A deeper understanding is always a good thing. I do understand the mass of a wetsuit remains the same, and the volume of water it displaces reduces as it compresses with increasing depth. This is why a diver adds air into the BCD during descent, and releases air during ascent. I'm intrigued about the video you mention. I'm assuming that video has something to do with the diver having trouble ascending?
The Americans are always right 🙈🥱
Sorry Im european
But None of the tanks are of steel
Steel 12 l. tanks wigth 14.7 KG and are neutral sich abbaut 30 bar.
In die Video i See onliy a S80 vor Stage Mr sidemount una.
An other dink ist da una in die EU. 2. first state regulator. Und there is no twin halbe.
Schade Armin jetzt bin ich schon etwas enttäuscht kann verstehen das du in den USA schwer eine 12 kg Stahl Flasche bekommst aber
Dieses Video ist jedoch voller Fehler
So am I the only guy here that dives steel in a wetsuit? 😱
Hell no brother.... We all do. Colin is around some crazy people.
Colin... Who in the hell told you that you shouldn’t dive steel (or even twin steel) with a wetsuit, “because you wouldn’t be able to get back up”? In 20 years of diving, both military and civilian, around the world, never have I ever heard of such a rule of thumb. I’m honestly curious as to what agency is preaching this.
take a set of HP double 15L and a 3mm wetsuit and jump in with a broken BCD - if you make it back up - try the same with aluminium. What agency? :-D and people tell me the intro is too long - LOL. We are not preaching - we suggest common sense.
InnerSpace Explorers - ISE Common sense would say you don’t dive with a broken BC. The video said nothing about diving steel with broken equipment. Colin said “there’s a rule of thumb in the States that you don’t dive steel with a wetsuit”. I’m saying I have never heard of this, and I’m wondering who told him that. I’ve dove back-mounted twin HP 100’s in wetsuits for years, and I know hundreds of divers who do the same. Yes, use common sense, but this “rule of thumb” Colin stated sounds made up. I don’t doubt he did indeed hear it from someone, but it isn’t correct, and again, my question was asking who is telling people this? Because it is not something commonly taught across the States, and Colin is suggesting it is. So I’m wondering where that came from.
@@ArmyVeteranAJ well - of course you dont dive with a broken BCD - but Murphy is always near and things break. You plan for the worst - dont you?
@@CoastalDevelopment In the video, Colin literally said (and I quote): "...However when a lot of divers in the U.S. move over to steel tanks (such as this), they are taught that if you're diving twin steels, you must be in a drysuit for redundant buoyancy because they are extremely heavy and you will not be able to swim them up should you have a buoyancy failure..." He stated "a lot of divers in the U.S. are taught you MUST use a drysuit for twin steels". I am saying, no. That is not true, and it is not something "commonly" taught either. All things are dependent (as we ALL very well know), so we're not arguing semantics here. We dive twin 100's all the time in a horse collar BC and a wetsuit - both military and civilian - in the States, so this is obviously false info. Colin also stated, "...In America we've always had the rule of thumb (as many of you know), that if you're diving aluminums you dive wet. If you dive steels you dive dry. You don't break that rule for safety..." Colin made a blanket "de-facto" statement implying the concept that "if you dive steel you MUST ALWAYS be in a drysuit" and suggested this is factual across the board, with ALL "steel" tanks, for all "situations", and he further implied that this "rule of thumb" is commonly taught material across the States - meaning NOT just "ISE", but suggesting lots of OTHER agencies say this too. You can literally dive twin steel in a full 5mm or 7mm and be fine, so the entire argument falls apart there. My question was, and still is, where did Colin get this info from? What agency? He clearly didn't get it from you (ISE), because he made a blanket statement suggesting this is a widespread commonly taught concept, therefore giving the impression he was taught this long before he crossed over to ISE. So what agency(s) is it that Colin is suggesting is preaching this? That was my initial question, and it still is.
@@ArmyVeteranAJ Aj, just because you have not heard of something does not mean it does not exist. I have interacted with many, many instructors from multiple agencies who throw this rule out, just as it was at one time common to 1/4 turn valves upon opening, we now know it is wrong and is not in any agencies standards, yet I can name off hand many instructors who still teach it. Take your experience as a sign you have been working with those that have common sense, however not all do.