Three Stereo Mic Arrays Compared
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- What good is a "look at me play guitar" video if the sound of the guitar isn't captured well? It's a lot more enjoyable to watch a performance if the sound is clear and clean, and even better if the music envelopes us and makes us feel like we are "there." One of the ways to achieve this is a compelling stereo image.
There are lots of ways to arrange mics to capture stereo, so I set up to compare three different stereo arrays: coincident XY, spaced ORTF, and spaced omnidirectional AB. I used the XY module of my Zoom H6 recorder, then connected a pair of Schoeps CMC64 cardioid mics in an ORTF configuration along with a pair of Shure KSM141s set to omni and spaced 15 inches apart for my AB setup. The Zoom H6 makes it easy to grab all these configurations at the same time.
I pulled all the tracks into Edius, made small adjustments in the levels and the panning to level the playing field as much as possible. With these different mics there will definitely be differences in frequency response which means the tonal balance will be different for each array, but if possible try to hear the effect of the stereo capture. Listen for differences in image width, sense of space, sense of envelopment. Hopefully one of these configurations will sound "just right" to you.
You can find the uncompressed WAV files for each array along with a bit more info at the Homebrewed Music blog: www.homebrewedm...
This video was captured on a Lumix GH4, the guitar is a Tony Yamamoto OMY, all editing was done in Edius.
THANK YOU SO MUCH, it serves well to the purpose of differentiating stereo mic techniques and the images they produce. I now confidently get the idea of the arrays and the feel of their images.
Also I finally know with confidence the difference between the XYH's 90° and 120° settings in my zoom capsules as well as what I could expect from the XAH-8, now seeing the fundamental principles/forms they're based on.
I certainly appreciate your visit and your detailed comment. It's very satisfying to hear that someone finds these videos useful.
Fran
Omg wow the zoom h6 mics sound really good with that setup.
I think the H6 mics do a fine job as a rule. Here's a video I shot using just the H6 and the stock XY module: ua-cam.com/video/HJN9MazwGwM/v-deo.html
Fran
The new generation of Zooms (H4N-Pro, H5, H6) are amazing!
+homebrewedmusic
Fran, thanks for this fantastic comparison video. Nice guitar tone and nice playing. 👍
I have the Zoom H6 as well and have been fairly impressed with its capabilities.
Overall I'm liking the Shure SM-141 A/B spaced pair here for its stereo imaging in this solo performance. I might choose differently if it were in a particular mix. And I'm sure that your room has a bit of influence here as well.
I'd just want to dial in a touch more low end...the Zoom XY capsules captured that a bit better, but the high end detail and upper harmonics were lacking there compared to the Schoeps and Shure SDCs, which I also think contributes to the spatial qualities as well.
I downloaded the WAV files and listened through some decent Neumann KH 120 studio monitors and AKG N5005 IEMs as well. The tracks all sound great!
Recently I've been playing with a pair of Samar VL-37A active ribbon microphones and they are blowing me away! They have a beautiful and very extended high-end unlike most ribbons, and it's incredibly detailed and natural....with amazing low end as well.
The Mesanovic Model 2A and AEA Nuovo N8 ribbons are very similar and stellar as well for all acoustic instruments! Give any of these a try if you have the opportunity. ;)
Thanks again!
I love how you enjoy the music, man! A big hug from Chile!
Of course, the purpouse of the video is to hear the diferentes in mic techniques and stereo imaging, but what a pleasant is when a music instrument is played by a Master. Thanks a lot.
Thank you, Alberto, for your very kind comment. If you'd like to hear more of my slack key guitar stuff just click on this picture of me.
Fran
The best thing with your videos is the face you make at the end of the song. Love it :) this videos is great at showing different setups. I'm going to do something along the lines of ortf :)
Thanks for visiting. I've probably used a spaced directional array - sorta like ORTF - for most of my recordings over the last few years. Seems to give a nice compromise between space and focus.
Fran
I love how simple yet amazing this is, great video!
Thanks for taking the time to comment. I guess part of doing a video like this is being nuts enough to gather all these microphones.
Fran
No kidding! haha. that's what makes it one of a kind.
This is the video one needs when investigating stereo image characteristics, so thanks a lot! I pretty much like the omni AB. Nice guitar playing.
Glad you found the clip useful. Thanks for visiting.
Fran
This is very interesting!
I found with experience that ORTF is one of the best technique to record ensemble and choirs and the likes... but it is not really adapted to solo instruments.
An ORTF pair needs 'air' and distance from the source. The beauty of the ORTF setup is how you can blend the ambiance and the source just by changing the distance ! Of course, the basic recipe for a great recording will always be a great orchestra, in a great hall, putting a great performance!
But back to our guitar playing gentleman, I found that the XY gave the best image.... if the guitar is taken as a solo instrument.
But personally, whithin the context of a group recording, I would rather use a single mono microphone.
I find that tracking everything in stereo over-complify the mix preocess, adds a lots of phase funnies and does not sound natural and homogenous.
Only my two (Canadian) cents!
But this is a great video! Really enjoyed it! :)
Luc, thanks for your input. I rarely record more than one instrument but when I do I generally use a single mic for each source.
Fran
Yep - totally agree with all that. Classical techniques are fantastic when you have a choir or similar, but when you have a few instruments, particularly in a less-than-ideal physical space, it’s a lot easier and generally gets better results to mic them all and create an image out of that.
Amazing guitar playing! I have to get my fancy headphones out to really compare the different configurations but with playing like that, you can't go wrong!
Thank you, Ross. If you enjoyed that sample you might pay a visit to my slack key guitar channel: ua-cam.com/users/franguidryvideos
Fran
I love how you open this video. "I call it 'look at me play guitar' video." Had me laughing. Very true.
I don't know if you hang out on any guitar forums, but the electric guitar guys are _really_ into doing demos of their guitars, amps, and effects, often playing along with backing tracks. The acoustic guys seem more interested in showing off their tunes, either covers or compositions.
Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
Fran
Really great video, thanks!
Great video! It's really hard to differentiate the tonal effects of the mic techniques vs the mics themselves. Leaves a lot to guess about. Thanks for the share!
X/Y will give you the least phase problems (mono compatibility), A/B will give you the most. ORTF seems like a surprisingly good middle ground
Like you I've been pleasantly surprised by ORTF. I guess we should appreciate the effort by those French engineers to figure out a useful compromise. Using ORTF for close miking a single acoustic guitar is kind of a mis-use, but if it works it's good, right?
Fran
ORTF configuration sounds better to me, it is more round and warm sound; AB gives more space and sense of stereo sound, and XY is so sharp and little space.
Thanks for visiting and commenting.
Frna
homebrewedmusic, thank you to show us the stereo arrays. Very good video.
Just a question. Did you set the microphones (ORTF configuration) in front of the soundhole?
Check the video at about 2:20 and you can see the mic placement relative to the guitar.
Fran
ok, I see. Thank you for your answer and your post.
Fascinating… seems like those matched x/y microphones like the zoom or rode nt4 are designed to be phase adjusted for an out-of-the-box balanced stereo field… and everything else is kind of DIY until you get the phase and levels right… thanks for the video!
I'd say you're experiencing the different between coincident and non-coincident arrays. A careful XY or MS coincident array just doesn't have any significant phase differences between channels, but the trade off is a less open and spacious result. And, just as you say, when you go to a wider spacing there are no fixed rules to go by, it's definitely a DIY situation.
Fran
I like them all! XY card seems tightly focused, AB omni has better overall bass, and ORTF sounds quite natural.
BTW,...I thought ORTF doesn't lend itself very well to summing into mono.
As an anecdote...I once told someone taking courses on micing and mixing how do ORTF. The next time he was in a studio, a band wanted him to record some songs. He set up two cards as drum overheads in ORTF. He said the band was amazed as to the stereo image they'd gotten on the drum kit that way.
Walter, thanks for taking time to comment. As I understand the history, ORTF was developed by evaluating a range of mic array configurations in order to find the best balance between spaciousness and mono compatibility. The French national broadcast service was responsible for the development and they were quite interested in mono compatibility.
Fran
Just to add to my earlier comments, and thank you for the reply, it occurs to me that with the mics you have there, you have a perfect opportunity to experiment with an OCCO array. I’ve only recently discovered these, but essentially it is an ORTF pair in the middle (cardioids) and a spaced pair of omnis further out (hence Omni-Cardioid-Cardioid-Omni) with capsules level with each other. In fact, your spacing in this video is probably close to the ideal for this although the omnis would be better being a bit further apart - I’ve been experimenting with 60 cm apart. You can blend the two pairs together and you have control over the contribution of the room sound by blending in more or less of the Omni pair - in practice, I find it works quite well if you have the Omnis about six dB lower than the ORTF pair. I’ve been trying this for my harp recordings, and it is a lovely realistic quality of sound, which works very well on both headphones and speakers, and the images are pretty stable even if you’re not in the ideal loudspeaker listening position. Tony Faulkner uses it a lot.
I take it you visit "GearSpace." Or is there another discussion site for geeking out on mic arrays? (grin)
Fran
@@homebrewedmusic thought I’d replied so this may appear twice! Classical music location recording (Facebook) is a happy hunting ground of interesting techniques. But I’ve been into sound recording forever and worked in the broadcast industry in live radio, tv, location recording and training for 22 years. So I love this stuff!
One factor I've never thought of but see in your video, you're playing with the sound hole off axis about 45° because of the strap and positioning. I usually angle the mic different to get less boominess but weirdly never occured to me that I could simply change the source's angle
Perhaps your belly isn't as intrusive as mine, otherwise you might have discovered this trick sooner (grin).
Thanks for visiting and commenting.
Fran
I like those Schoeps mics - that's probably why the ORTF sounds best to me!
I'm a fan of those Schoeps as well, and you might know that those particular mics were designed to be optimum for use in ORTF arrays.
Fran
Thank you for posting these - very informative.
I listened first on speakers. I love XY techniques for the very precise imaging, although the Zoom MS mic (this can plug it into recorders like the H6) is even more precise in imaging than the XY one. MS will decode to a perfectly coincident pair and give you easy width control as well.
On speakers ORTF is a bit wishy-washy for me with the imaging, and suits larger groups rather than a solo instrument (except maybe larger ones such as a grand piano or organ) but ORTF and the omni spaced pair are both much less dependent on where you are in the room as a listener. While all of them sounded pretty good from my central listening position, only the spaced ones still maintain some semblance of appearing between the speakers when you are listening at different places in the room. They gave a satisfying image rather than (as with the XY pair) collapsing towards the speaker that was physically nearest to me.
On headphones I preferred the ORTF because you get time of arrival differences as well as volume. The XY wasn’t such an exciting sound.
But it was a great test and all the mics produced a “quality” sound. Kudos to guitar and player of course, too!
First, thanks for such a careful evaluation and description.
While I am a fan of mid/side as a technique the self-noise of the side mics in the Zoom MS mic attachment keeps me from using that tool: ua-cam.com/video/gZ4eWGDucBk/v-deo.html
and
www.homebrewedmusic.com/2013/08/21/zoom-h6-ms-noise-issue/
Fran
Nice work, thanks for sharing
I hope it's useful, thanks for stopping by and commenting.
Fran
What a great video. Thanks so much for the time and adding to my learning ;)
I'm certainly glad that you found the video useful. Did one array seem to you like a better way to capture guitar?
Fran
@@eatsleepguitar3826 Thanks very much for your description, I found it very informative.
Fran
Thank you...nicely done...very professional!
Thanks for visiting and commenting.
Fran
Well done. Watched twice & subscribed.
Thank you, Steve, very kind of you to take a moment to leave a comment.
Fran
this guy obviously has tons of experience, evident from the great sound!
That's a very interesting comment, thanks for stopping by. I was surprised to find that my recordings did get better as I acquired more experience. I stopped buying mics and preamps. As I kept doing more recordings I found a couple of mic positions that worked OK and learned to manage input levels and things started working.
It's hard to tell someone they just have to put in a lot of time - all of us want the magic bullet the first day, right?
Fran
Yeeeeeehhh, you're a master! Pienso que ORTF es para multimedia, peliculas y sesiones de video en vivo, y XY es para instrumentos y bandas de rock, o cualquier estilo musical.
Thanks you!
Thanks for visiting and commenting.
Fran
You have made an excellent video my friend
Cool vid. The main problem though is there are 3 different mics used, so our ears are also hearing how different the mics sound from each other, so far less than an ideal way to try and compare the different mic arrays. How can you tell what exactly is affecting the sound?
Thanks for visiting and commenting. It's hard to separate the mic differences from the array differences, but although I have way too many mics, I don't have that many of one kind.
Fran
Yep, different mics, different heights. It may be an enjoyable video to watch and listen to, but not very useful.
Wonderful playing and great sound. How far were you from the mics? Its hard to tell from the video anlge. Thanks!
Sorry, I should have shot an angle that showed that distance. I'd say the guitar is about 15-18" from the mics.
Fran
Beautiful video!! Cool!!
This is such a great video with comparison, would love to know your setup such pre amp to interface. thanks for the info wow the recording is crystal clear here.
Thanks for visiting. I tried to include all the details in the video description. In this case all the recordings were done with the Zoom H6. The XY module was attached to the recorder while the other two mic arrays were fed into the H6 preamps. That little recorder isn't perfect, but it's pretty darned good and very convenient.
Fran
Thanks! I have three questions. Although I like all three configurations for different reasons, there is an immediacy and directness to the XY image which I like. At the same time, this presentation lacks one important dimension for me: the vocalist! In your opinion, which of these mic configurations would most compliment a singer-songwriter who plays and sings simultaneously? Would the XY config. get in the way of a lead vocal coming from the center of a mix when recording both at the same time? Thanks!
Actually, for a singer-songwriter playing and singing simultaneously I would recommend a dual figure 8 arrangement. I've done a video on this topic, and I recently found an even better demo by Steve Albini: ua-cam.com/video/Ualm3rCZRz0/v-deo.html
Fran
great job!
Great content please keep it up
XY just sounds too close to mono for me, and AB sounds as if the guitar is playing inside my head. ORTF is intimate but not unnaturally so - it’s definitely my favourite of the three configurations.
I've adopted various ORTF-ish arrays for most of my solo stuff, so I agree with you.
Fran
x/y any day of the week !!!
enjoyed this very much. Thanks. Not sure how much of the difference in bass etc has to do with the positions or the type of mic used. I would like to know if you centered the ORTF and or AB on the sound hole, or at the neck joint etc. You replied to someone saying there would be some indication at 2:20, but it is all the same camera view, so there is nothing in the video that changed at all in terms of camera angle.
Thanks for stopping by. Sorry I didn't do a camera angle that answers your question. As a rule I position the mic array aiming between the soundhole and the bridge, as this seems to give the most balanced image.
As far as the difference in bass response, if you research mic technology and mic patterns, you'll find that omni and directional mics "hear" low frequencies in fundamentally different ways.
Hope this helps,
Fran
Yes very much. Thanks. I just started using ORTF today with new Shoeps mics. I will try your "between the soundhole and bridge position.
I chose this mic "aim point" by listening with some isolating headphones. Some time ago I experimented with placement, and I really wanted a balanced image. Many of the recommended placements don't do that for me. This position seemed to work and also deliver a nice treble to bass balance, so since then that's how I try to position things.
I'd say that in this example the result is far from perfect, and different arrangements are off in different directions, but they're all sort of in the ballpark.
Fran
Thanks Fran. I see people saying ORTF should be like 60 cm from the guitar. But that really sets the fundamental voice way deep in the sounds tage, in my situation. How far back do you like to set the microphones?
Sorry, I missed this one. I'm usually 18"-24" from the guitar, I think, so pretty close to the recommendations you've had. Are you recording in a very small space? I'm very lucky to have a reasonable sized room with a big dose of broadband absorption. I have about 24 OC703 panels on the walls, corners, and ceiling.
Fran
Don’t omni mics reject phasing issues when recorded as stereo pair?
Can you point me to a reference on this subject? I can't think of a reason why omni mics would be immune to phasing unless they were coincident and that would mean minimal stereo imaging. But I learn something new every day ...
Fran
That was sweet.
Great Video! As I understood yo panned the mics 100% lef and right?
Thanks for stopping by. Yes, all the arrays were panned hard left and right.
Fran
Great demonstration. I'm going to try the spaced omni ab for my first time. Should they be recorded as a stereo source on one track or two tracks each mono and then panned? Any advice would be appreciated.
I generally go hard left and right which is equivalent to a stereo track. I would advise you to start with two mono tracks so you can try different degrees of panning, then if you prefer the hard panned sound you can use stereo tracks in the future.
Fran
@@homebrewedmusic thank you so much! I just tried that this morning and it's turned out to be best recording I've ever had of my acoustic, no kidding. I've been fighting this for two years, recording layers and everything else to get things to sound more full but usually just became slop in the end. Thank you thank you
well done!...
Thanks for visiting, hope this little demo was useful.
Fran
Hello! Should we swap channels in XY configuration, when left mic facing right and right mic is facing left even if they're on a same axis? Thanks!
I'm not sure I'm picturing the arrangement you ask about, so let me describe my way of assigning mics to channels when recording for video.
I always use the lower channel number for the left, next channel for right. Since I want the sound to match the image, I plug the mic that hears the left side into the lower numbered channel. Mic that hears the right side goes in the next higher channel.
If I start with ORTF or another spaced pair the left mic hears the left side. If I change to an XY configuration, I would switch the channels.
Hope this answers your question.
Fran
@@homebrewedmusic I meant we are pointing 45 degree in one side -45 in other like X. So, the body of mic which is on the left side pointed it's diaphragm to the right and body of the mic which is on the right side is pointed diaphragm to the left. But they are on the same horizontal axis and if they are cardioid, then what was i asking, they are picking sound from where they are pointed at. In AB it's faced left to the left side and right mic to the right. But in XY it's crossed. That was my question. Thanks, you answered right! I should swintch the channels in XY.
thx! very appreciate!!
Thank you for taking a moment to comment.
Fran
Bizarrely, i think I preferred the x/y
To me XY has real merit in its solid center.
Fran
@@franguidry I think so...I was surprised by your test. Makes me rethink getting the rode nt4 which I nearly bought recently
I like XY most
Interesting - I used XY almost exclusively for a long time but the last few years I've been mixing things up with spaced pairs, omni arrays, even some mono.
What makes XY work for you?
Fran
ORTF
Spaced pair is definitely a useful way to record a solo guitar.
How do you feel about solo guitar in mono? Some folks insist that nothing more is needed to capture a compelling sound.
Fran
AB is the best for me. Joost Kist
I like the wide sound of AB as well especially on headphones. But I think ORTF might be better for playback in cars or other non-symmetrical environments. Not an issue for UA-cam clips, though.
Fran
No mid/side, seriously?
You are so right, mid/side would have been a nice addition, but I was running out of mics and more importantly I was running out of room to position them. Then there's the idea that properly configured X/Y and properly configured mid/side are nearly equivalent, right?
I do have some mid/side stuff in other videos and blog posts: www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/03/21/mid-side-and-blumlein-recording-with-the-zoom-h4n/
I'll try to remember to do a new mid/side vs XY clip one of these days. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
Fran