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Red Bull RB17 - Aerodynamics Analysis and Initial Thoughts
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- Опубліковано 14 сер 2024
- After much anticipation the Red Bull RB17 has released. With an aerodynamic architecture similar to the Valkyrie, the real thing we need to look at here is the details. In particular, the rear diffuser and bodywork management are very interesting.
Thanks to Top Gear, Shmee and CarWow for getting some good close up shots for me to look at and analyse!
00:00 Introduction
0:33 Aero Numbers
02:55 Car layout
03:47 Front wing structure
06:10 Front wing outboard treatment
11:16 Front wheel
12:04 Mid Bodywork
15:08 Diffuser
21:18 Rear Wing
25:18 Fans
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Another thing I didn't really touch on in the video but is worth mentioning - SCx of 0.38 for a car of this nature is insanely low (especially with exposed rear faces on both the front and rear tyres) - it's worth noting that Adrian didn't personally quote SCz in his interview ("I'm not very good at those numbers" when told kg@speed) , but he did quote efficiency as that was the number he knew off the top of his head. That may indicate that the SCz and SCx may be higher than indicated by the 1700kg@150mph being widely reported, which seems a bit more reasonable given everything else being said about the car.
As you mentioned, I’m very surprised by the 1700kg downforce figure. For a car that’s supposed to be faster than an F1 car around Silverstone, I was expecting double or triple that figure at 150mph. Does this mean that it has some kind of crazy sticky qualifying tires from Michelin? I don’t doubt Adrian Newey at all, I’m just also wondering where the lap time is coming from.
Given Adrian talked about the need to back off downforce to protect the tyres, do you think the efficiency could be quoted at a lower speed trim (higher CL, higher CD, but significantly more efficient)? And that while it might not be capable of a flashy marketing number like 1700kg @ 150mph with a CL/CD of 16, it's absolute most efficient aero speed range is actually less force because it happens at a lower speed.
Kyle, some sources say 1700kg @100mph, will that make sense to you?
@@user-ne3rb8ps8j Hmm that's SCz 13.8, which seems a little high for the amount of wing it's carrying. Puts the drag number near an LMH though which I guess would be ballpark? Perhaps that number is with the fan blowing on, which is within the bounds of being conceivable. A bit annoying about the disagreement between the sources, I think we will have to wait and see what they say on car launch
@BoostandEthanol In the top gear interview, Adrian says all the aero devices start backing off above 240kph, so I don't think that's the case.
@@KYLEENGINEERS Thank you. I also thought it is strange that the claims from different sources contradict each other, but probably there will be huge amount of myths and legends about this car until it all clears up :)
I was allways wondering, what are ballpark Cl*A numbers of a modern F1 car and an LMP1?
Finally the goat is back to analyse a car made by the unhinged genius newey.
To anyone who thinks this guy doesn't know what he's talking about just consider that immediately following his departure from the team, Mercedes almost immediately went from unbeatable to midfield.
We can't argue with that. He's only second to Newey
newey is one of the all time greats but he still got his @$$ handed to him by rory, aldo and lowe. this doesn't take out his greatness but people worship him like he's some sort of a Messiah ffs. just yesterday I was arguing with an rb cheering lad on a colin chapman post and he was throwing dirt on his name because the only name he knew was newey. lol
the reason he dominated in rb recently is because his biggest competitor, allison, was mid at his best even before the tragedies that happened with him. f1 doesn't have those big name engineers like they used to anymore, it's only newey on the field.
but that is a big assumption as they also now do get P1
it has nothing to do with aero concept for the past two years it has been the suspension issue
also to noted W11 had an engine advantage which allows them to be draggy as fuck yet the benefits in downforce for corners offset that
This is the video I was waiting for from the moment I saw this car
My delight is immeasurable and my day is completed
same here. the original interview was for people who think this is a valkyrie
What's your favourite bit of this car? For me the diffuser exit treatment is what does it for me.
Also a PSA that my Aero course is on sale for another 24hrs if you want to get in on that. I would say it's the best aero course out but I do have a bit of bias there!
courses.jkfaero.com/courses/race-car-aerodynamics-the-definitive-course
Favourite bit is maybe the comical diffuser or the "sidepods" .
Those diffuser exits are pretty unique.
For me? It's the Kyle Engineers video about it! 😁
I like blown diffuser speculation, just need fans strong enough I suppose
Easily one of the most beautiful cars I've ever seen, thanks for the aero breakdown. I also remembered Newey mentioning this was a design freeze from last september, and the how the current iteration is already well out of date. Can't wait to see the final thing
Beautiful???😂
It Is, why you think It isn't?@@alebrigaz
This car is going too be awesome. Cant wait to hear that v10
This channel is a gold mine
The two main virtues of that car to me are that Adrian designed it and you talked about it. So great a compromise in favor of performance is not something I long to own, fascinating and remarkable as it certainly is.
I hope Merc does the same, maybe an AMG Two - take their tiny F1 1.6L V6, double it into a 3.2L V12 and make it lightweight with much more downforce
That would be absolutely awesome, they could even compete for track records.
that's like ridiculously ambitious but it's always good to dream
@@bonifacelukosi9580 James Allison seems to have gotten on top of the ground effects finally, and the AMG One broke the Nurburgring lap record
@@walter1824 you're talking about merging two of the most efficient ICEs in the world that cost £7mil a pop and has had 100s of millions, maybe more than a billion into the R&D of it. These aren't the kind of engines you just stick together.
The project lead of the AMG One said the team were just tired of trying to get the damn thing to work.
Thank you so much for taking the time to do an analysis’s for us! It makes my day every time I see a new video from you! Especially on this magnificent machine.
Didn't expect to get another aero analysis this year but I'm so here for it.
What aero do you prefer? RB17 or Valkyrie AMR Pro?
Can you also do an aero analysis of the Ferrari Vision GT car, it has really unique aero which makes me scratch my head thinking if it would work or not
Agree, it would be cool to do the 499P afterwards in the same episode as an ‘designer’s idea of aero vs. real world’ kind of thing. But there are some features on the VGT like CoG/CoP & details like rear wing endplates that make me wonder how much serious thought was put into them
@@GreatistheWorld IIRC they did say in the launch video that the aero concept wasn't purely fictional and that it could work. Which does make sense on paper since it's a completely closed diffuser at that point which theoretically won't need to worry about stuff like skirts, diffuser stall, not sealing with the road and stuff like that. They also did say that they're going to be using ideas from the Vision GT in their future cars now if that was limited just to design or they're gonna work more on the aero concept, I'm not sure
it doesn't work. car broke
love your analysis. one of the very very few, if not only, channels that can give proper analysis. not just 'improves air flow' comments. nice work.
Would make sense to use fans to increase the vortex rotation though the tunnels. So suck from the center floor, and blow at the outer edges.
Sound and clear. Thanks.
Must be mentioned that Newey said in TG interview that this is not a final design, the actual car will be slightly smaller and more technical in details than this iterative mockup
man i love those videos 😃😁 dont know anything about aero...but you explain with such ease even not-knowing guy understands something
I’m more interested in the engine after hearing the power they’re talking about from a NA V10 with only 4.5 liters of displacement. Cosworth is on a roll lately designing some incredible engines for some amazing cars.
ever since i saw the inverview with Adrian ive been waiting for some proper analysis of this masterpiece
Imagine following the RB17 at full tilt on Silverstone as you navigate thru Maggots and Becketts. So much dirty air being generated by this design, you probably can't follow too closely!
Though adrian did say tha car has changed quite a bit, so we may need a revisit in a year or two
Very well done. Thanks for your expert analysis. It was very insightful.
Amazing video!
My ideas for usage of fans: Perhaps some boundary layer suction? Perhaps to make flow in the tunnels more predictable and efficient or even change the balance and downforce level.
Also some coanda-effect for low speeds?
dude u make super good vids,u just got a sub
Growing up all I wanted to be was an aerodynamics engineer! Awesome!
Great recap. Thanks kyle
Great work ! Very appreciated. Thanks for sharing.
Great vid Kyle, love to see this kind of in-depth analysis
You should look at the X2010 from Gran Turismo!
and compare maybe.
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks username checks out 😆
The front element delta could be there for turning, generating vortices at high AoA.
Hyper cars are getting absolutely insane!
They're not living up to the name in WEC, so it'll have to be customer toy cars.
The road going hypercar are quite amazing. Ever more road trippable. Koenigsegg Gemera a roomy 4 seater with choice of 1400 or 2300 hp and ample cargo space. I can't lust for any other car.
Could a fan be more cigar shaped and sit in the core of the diffuser void? That could blow it, especially when the car is at low speed. A compressor style multi prop fan? A longerslack pitch prop? Open or closer?
Slow speed is where time can be made on F1 cars. They struggle for mechanical grip and don't have a lot of downforce to play with. If a good part part of the 1700 kg could be created at 100 kph or so, that would sovle seconds won to F1.
I still want a specialist like Kyle look into a an unsprung aero floor. It's directly mounted to the uprights, or is in two parts loading for instance the rear upright and a point far forward and vice versa. This is downforce that hits the tyres but doesn't load the suspension of the bulk of the weight. How much of the DF can be sent directly into the uprights, and how efficient can the whole car be? Can the downforce and rag be dialed out for straight lines and cruising?
Yay Kyle released. I have been waiting for this video.
big thank you for this one Kyle 🙏🏾
You say 1,700 kilo at 240kph; however, on Shmee150 video, and others, the RB team is claiming 1,700kg at 160kph. Quite a difference imo.
Bro, MPH and KMH are not the same yo
@@gesunderpsychopath8569 Right. It was quoted as 1700kg at 100mph…which is 160kph. Go watch the video.
What does your analysis say? We'll wait
@@lukealadeen7836 I don’t have an analysis. Was just asking if he could clarify or if it was even possible.
Kyle, love your videos. You, Superfast Matt, Julian Edgar, and others have been wonderful educators.
That said, is there anyway they could use fans which can spin fast enough to turbocharge the air traveling through the venturi tunnels? Like, imagine a Dyson-type fan that turbocharges the airflow. That seems more likely imo.
Been waiting for a video from you I hope you’re doing well
ua-cam.com/video/W9KojzyYkqs/v-deo.htmlsi=r6j70HwQ8a0vc4Wp
10:13 guy from red bull saying 1700kg at 160kph
The figure quoted by Newey in the top gear interview and all other sources say 150mph
Saw that too. Big difference.
That much downforce at such a low speed is just not possible
@@JohnWiku Guy from red Bull quoted in KPH and Shmee confirmed in MPH, so I don’t think this to be an error…whether it will ultimately be true is another story.
@@JohnWiku What about the fan use?
In excess of 540kmph...? In the image, it already looks as though it's sitting on the ground. Is it dependant on active suspension to pervent it scraping the ground constantly once the downforce kicks in..? Beautiful... car...? Object of art? Thank you for the video, really appreciate your skills and understanding of aerodynamics.
Championship rivals are definitely here!
I'd like to see a variant with no styling compromise
Hey Kyle Engineers. Long time fan. Can you please make a video on Tesla aerodynamics especially Model Y how does Gemini wheels give extra range and what could potentially be an even better improvement
Can’t wait to get this in GT7 or 8
Adrian quoted a lift to drag ratio of 16 which is comparable to a modern jetliner. With that much downforce, it's unheard of.
Efficient for a non LM car. If that's what you're referring to.
@@Charners At this point it basically is a LM prototype, just without regulations and 2 seats.
The vortices in the tunnel act as a restriction reducing the cross section area of the diffuser even more. I'm guessing maximum flow acceleration from the diffuser is probably right under the engine.
Looks like a amr pro and valkyrie hybrid. Like when Aston and red bull parted ways both build their own version of the same concept
Great video.
Could be great with a comparison between this and the Valkyrie AMR Pro from your perspective.
I can die peacefully now! That what exactly I wanted to know. Smashed it!
Its RB-17 speed-bump and pot-hole analysis that I want to see! Oh also interior noise too lol.
Pot hole on a racetrack?
@@matthewgamble95Bro, this comment got me thinking deep about the Aston Martin Valkyrie until I saw your reply 😂
IQ is definitely lower than the track temperature yo 😂
around 23:00 I wonder if those stagnation points (weird centre treatment, and behind the tyres) are kind of intentionally sandwiched in there to increase the differential from the inside of the diffuser to the outside. It might well just be a set of styling compromises from making that bridge/beamwing thing a styling element, but looking at how the expansion progresses in the diffuser, and the way he/they want to run the front wing in terms of the overall wake of the car, and then the fact that you've kind of siphoned off all the high energy air off the top of the diffuser with all those slots, perhaps those little stagnations are decently well handled by a foot or two downstream.
I just can't wait for the Newey-designed Ferrari.
Any chance of some analysis of the WEC hypercars ?
I maybe wrong but I think that no one has ever been able to make such a low rear wing work with tunnels. Many teams tried it (Lotus, Brabham, Willy, Arrows,..) in the turn of 70/80s. No one got the balance right and there was quite a sensitivity to pitch and ride height (porpoiging modes). Also C-group this was tried but skipped or compromized. There is that factor of ride height per total chord of the car.
Anyway, for an aerodynamicist this looks like a fantastic functional art work. I’d say the older Adrian gets the more beautiful his cars become. What I find regrettable as a trend is that we are losing the beautiful feminine sexy forms of old prototypes and we get more complex aerostructures. This a aerowise fantastic but I’d still say the 330 P4 is still the benchmark in aesthetics.
👊 great analysis
Whats to analyze? Its an updated Valkyrie AMR PRO.
Wildly guessing here but could the fans be used to get flow through the venturi as if the car was moving? As opposed to sucking out air?
Yes, it's trying to blow the tunnels at low speed
I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS!!!!!!!!!
Side note, in your opinion, what is the best free/open source cfd program for higher viscocity fluids (like water)? You obviously work a lot with air a lot, I'm curious what your thoughts are. For example, I know that modeling a 100cP liquid forming a laminar flow in air can be very difficult to model the boundary conditions and predicting instabilities.
Could the lap times be helped by the extra efficiency? i.e. more energy available to deploy more often from the electrical systems versus the F1 car, which is a 45° flat plate in a free stream when compared to this car
You didn’t talk about the outlet in the diffuser.
WAKE UP BABE, KYLE JUST DROP A NEW VID 🗣
Are the load capabilities of these Michelins lower than that of an F1 tire?
Thanks.
only designed in CFD? what is it, the 2010 Virgin?
CFD is far more effective than you give it credit for. They come with like a conservative 93% accuracy rate next to a Wind Tunnel.
Very interesting analysis! The car I would like to see you do next is the Rodin Fzero, which also claims to be as fast, if not faster, than a current F1 car. My personal speculation is it could be faster around the track than the RB17 but I’d love to hear your take on this!
Well, if nothing, in some ways it's less compromised than this car, since that isn't 2 seats.
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks That’s exactly one of the reason I think the Rodin Fzero might be faster than this. And the fact that the Rodin is lighter but with nearly identical power. The only chance the RB17 has is its Newey designed aero.
@@yujiezhang6371 I think one think the one advantage that the RB17 will have is making downforce from lower speeds with it's fans.
I notice they both share active suspension but I don't know if the F Zero has boundary layer fans.
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks That’s a good point. If the Rodin is fanless, then RB17 would have the edge in low speed corners. But in high speed corners, if the downforce figures quoted by Rodin are realistic, the RB17 doesn’t stand a chance.
Can you make video about a new F2 car?
Hi I'm a physics undergrad and was thinking about studying complex system fluid dynamics, do you know if it might land a job like yours?
What are those two nubs that hang down to the ground in the diffuser?
I was wondering how they generate a lot of downforce with the diffuser. Because the expansion ratio does not look all that large. While the exit of the diffuser is massive the smallest area does not seem very small which makes me curious about how the generate all of that downforce.
thats the point, its creating low pressure areas to suck the car to the ground
@@miguelcebriancarrasco1907 I know how a diffuser works. But it doesn't look to have a large enough expansion ratio to create the suction to meet the downforce numbers Newey has said. I definitely believe Newey but I just don't understand how this specific diffuser creates all its downforce.
Could fans provide a benefit if they were used to enhance vorticity under the floor? (For example a slot-type opening blowing in the local rotation direction), although this would introduce other losses given it is blown air rather than sucked air, or perhaps the local velocity would be too high for the fan to have any worthwhile effect towards powering up the existing flow behaviour.
It has fans to blow the diffuser
When they say "similar to F1", I'm sure that means somewhere around F3 times 😆
So, what I'm getting from this video is that a car following it on track within 2 seconds will not be able to pass it due to the dirty air spilt from the barge boards and the rear diffuser, unless the following car has a 2+ second pace delta due to tire degradation and overall power.
the .. end plate/fence ahead of the rear wheel on the floor edge ..
I had assumed that it did the job of sealing the floor from the higher (albeit reduced) pressure air above .. as do the vortices i.e on the valkyrie..and f1 from the undulating floor edge ..
Am i totally wrong ?
No vents to release air pressure on the front tires. More aesthetic features than expected, but let's wait to see the final product.
This is still an iterative mockup and not an actual final car, Newey said in Top Gear interview that the final car will be a bit different and slightly smaller
Also it literally has nothing behind front wheels, there's no need to add more ventilation.
@@StellarGaleI think vents will still be necessary like the Valkyrie has perhaps because of stagnation. That said, there's a lot less surface covering and shrouding the wheels so like, maybe.
maybe the performance gain that could make it’s lap time near a f1 car is from the closed cockpit design, but I don’t really know if the open cockpit f1 cars cause a lot of performance.
Also it has a decent bit more power than f1 cars.
Where's the cooling? That V10 is going to need quite a bit to stay cool. Its a good looking car!
sidepods
@@arnesupe1618 I could understand that if there were openings in the sidepods for air to enter and exit but none of the photos or videos show them. Its going to need a lot of airflow especially at low speeds. I'm wondering if all these crazy drag and downforce numbers include a fully functioning cooling system.
@@compt3ck im sure the engineers forgot about it
@@Australiaisupsidedown I'm not saying they forgot about it I'm wondering how different the actual production car is going to be compared to the static model if they're not showing any cooling. What else are they going to change to make the car actually work.
This is still an iterative mockup and not a final car.
Let's gooo!
Adrian has since stated that the car looks rather different now as this one is over a year old. The actual car will be smaller in both width and length and the aero surfaces have been changed too. So the reveal was pointless to be honest, the actual car is going to look a lot different.
With the tunnels being so circular in shape, they are probably mainly driven by a big vortex running through them, as you also said. What do you think where this vortex mainly originates from? Is it the FW Cone, or inwash around the outer tunnel/floor edge?
And why would you in this case not want to use any kind of larger strakes at the tunnel inlets (like current F1 e.g.) to kickstart or strengthen the vortices which run through the tunnels?
The diffuser will likely be fed with the small fans he mentioned
To save you 25 minutes of your life, aero elements you see on the car are there because there are reasons for it
Great video as always! However I do wonder if L/D of 16 is achievable with current technology on cars. AFAIK modern LMP1 is only around 5-6, and William Toet talks about the floor itself of pre-2022 F1 has a L/D of around 11. L/D=16 feels like quite a stretch from other racecar
Because it has active underfloor sukcing with 2 fans like the McMurtry, and those racecars don't obviously
Do they say something about what speed the L/D ratio refers to? With having fans on the car, it really would depend on what speed they are using to calculate their efficiency. Depending on how they use the fans, they can already get quite high downforce values at low speeds, which results in a very high SCz and thus very good efficiency at lower speeds.
Maybe they did this to get to the L/D of 16 and at higher speeds, when the fans are proportionally contributing less to the overall downforce, their efficiency is not actually 16 anymore.
@@wololo10 The video talks about the fan in the end and obviously that’s not how this car will likely use it
@@gerrit3887 That actually makes a lot of sense. But considering Newey’s status, I feel like he should be quoting a figure that’s at least relevant to the typical operating window, say 100kph upward. Curious if the fan could still boost performance by that much at high-ish speed?
@@corsamc12 yeah they will use the fans to dry the drivers hair
Looks like a Valkyrie from Redbull
Well, this car would have more engine hp and the hybrid deployment would be unlimited and slightly stronger than F1.
Going hybrid, I wonder whether they threw in an F1 MGU-H to fill the battery up when the engine is putting out serious power and exhaust flow. That could (help) make the 200 hp hybrid effectively available at all time around the lap.
Okay, I can't help but think is this a way around the cost cap for the f1 team? Let some guys run off and build a ground effect road car, let them learn lots about how to do it well, then hire them back into the f1 team and bring back what they learned.
RIP Bollide
The legend returns
Hello,
I’m sure you are very busy; however, I am going into my first year of engineering with the dream of reaching formula 1. I was looking for any advice or possible connections that could help me achieve my dream.
Any help or input would be extremely beneficial and insightful
Pretty sure he has done a video on this. Try looking through the previous videos. Looks like a lot of hard working, uni degree in aerospace engineering and then a PHD.
😂 Adrian explained it all in the original presentation 😂😂😂
Imagine that adrian 👀 at this video and start taking a note 😂😂😂
'on pole at silverstone' hmm
The guy from SHMEE video said ; "1700kg of downforce a around 160kmh" is this even realistic ?
Adrian Newey said the same thing. This car is being designed to be able to achieve F1 levels of laptime and performance. There's a full walkaround of the car with Newey on the Top Gear youtube Channel.
Without regulations it's not impossible.
Bro why did you leave Merc?
Wasn't it 1700kg at 100mph?
you deserve a nice oled 4k 240hz display
I know you are working on proejcts right niw but hav eyou ever thought of making your own hypercar?
I think he is probably just too busy working on everyone's hypercar to fit in his own
Be more curious with the proper tires to see numbers on a flat track with top speed modification
limitation in tire loading?? aye come on world....Red Bull builds this gorgeous beast, and they do not get proper tire for it?!?!?
in comparison, if i am correct, bugatti chiron has 2tonns pulling the car down.... HOW the RB17 can't?
Something i do wonder (I'm by no means experienced in aero, mostly know some basics) but how come in cars like this they always try to make the aero more smooth. The aero on the RB17 is very smooth and doesnt have kicks and vortex generators like F1 cars do for example. Is it purely not needed to generate downforce and to not increase drag, or is it cost dependant or way harder to simply develop and balance?
Aero doesn't have to be increasingly complicated to be effective. F1 cars are working within hard constraints of the rulebook and the simple fact of having open wheels.
@@StellarGale I do know that aero can be simple and very effective like with these cars. But i've also wondered why not make them more complicated, it's a way to probably add a shitton of downforce. I've always assmued cost, and it's much harder to develop and get it balanced and such. But then again i'm no expert so
@@BlissifiedHH Thats also the point where you reach diminishing returns and the cost to performance ratio begins to swing heavily towards cost.
I also believe that, without regulations, it just might not really be all that necessary because you don't have so many legality areas to work with.