Riot wanted to make top lane more of an island thanks to the TP changes and the introduction of hullbreaker. This is simply an outcome of their design choices for the game.
Honestly at this point they should just put a big fricking wall in between top lane and the rest of the map then the only way you could leave is when teleport unlocks halfway through the game.
My only issue with int Sion is that it becomes completely my problem as the top laner to deal with. It's not hard to deal with. It's just annoying to know that if I don't constantly stop him my team will just let him get all 11 towers.
DISCLAIMER: this is a common personal experience from a low elo player and it may be different to your own. As a splitpush main I can say that your own team normally hates this too. You generally get a lot of all chat messages saying "report [x champ] they aren't grouping mid to teamfight" all the while they hide under tower flaming while you are getting 5 manned in another lane. No problem with getting 5 manned on my end so long as I survive or can go 1 for 1 but come on at least push a lane or take an objective...
Facts, but illaoi, yorick and others do the same thing, so its kind of a pick your poison angle. At least vs sion you are the one getting the lead most of the time, instead of getting denied cs by those i mentioned above.
@@gankutsuou2647 Its A sion problem, because only sion can die All The time and still get value, other split pusher need to kill you or back when you contest them.
Thats what I am saying tho in my opinion in is not toxic bc it gives a way to play the game other than go against fiora irelia forget riven every fukcintg game this is a good way to counter that in some way
@Neko Rosaria Ive only seen baus win a few fiora lanes. Its an awful mu, and when light fighters get fed, riven, fiora, jax, etc, they 1v9 the game, making inting sion feel more like a gimmick than a legit strat.
Inting sion isn't toxic bc there ways to counter picking snowball champs, not allowing the sion to proxy(if he ults body block it, if he tries to walk or flash just kill him before he touches the wave and finally go proxy yourself. The last one may sound stupid but this is the legitimate way to counter Simon's strategy
Well, it depends. When I charge into an enemy turret, it's always when the turret is already close to destruction and I know that the enemy team is far enough away that they won't be able to stop me. This is also useful for drawing enemies away from objectives like Baron or Dragon, which can give my own team a chance to steal, or give them better odds in a fight, since someone, usually one or two of the more powerful enemy Champions, will be busy trying to take me down. Anyone who throws themselves at a full-health turret without any sort of plan other than "Run in, punch, die, punch some more," isn't even trying to win the game, as far as I'm concerned.
The fact hullbreaker gives 200% damage to turrets when you're without champions negates the damage reduction you get from not having minions at tower is just like.. How long is 200 years really?
The strategy requires knowledge, but is really toxic for your team (a lot of 4v5 or avoiding fights constantly) and the other team (constant “not fun” pressure). It’s the opposite of fun and interactive
Inting Sion's biggest flaw is really the fact that it's "newbie bait". Saw a few videos on UA-cam of someone playing it and winning and now they think they can do it too, as you've said. The problem is, how do you deal with that? How can you convince people easily that actually this is a pretty hard, even if effective, strategy that not anyone can pull off?
@@inqusitorlime9551 there is this guy in EUW challenger who is the reason for this whole shabang, don’t think that you heard about him. He rushes Hullbreaker
@@alex2005z Pretty sure he's bouta leave Korea he reached Challenger and he felt like people didn't really like him especially after the 2-18 faker incident.
I think it's healthy to have an alternative win-condition like this that still requires skill expression (through macro knowledge + application.) I think it's unhealthy that Sion is uniquely good at this, since he will always be, de facto, the best split-pusher/side-lane farmer because his kit intrinsically benefits this style of play. This means that the balance and effectiveness of other split-pushing champions depends indirectly on Sion. You can nerf other parts of Fiora's kit (like duelling potential) if she becomes too effective at split-pushing, but if Sion is too good at split-pushing then split-pushing *itself* (side tower gold, hullbreaker, etc.) has to be nerfed, since he is good at it in virtue of his passives and Q wave clear. In effect, Sion means that other champions that could benefit from this style of side lane dominance through farming and pushing aren't allowed to, since Sion forces Riot to put an artificial cap on the strategy.
I agree with you, but isn't that true for any alternative or non-meta strategies that have popped out throughout the game's lifetime? I think the problem here doesn't lie in Sion's effectiveness at this particular strategy, but rather the fact that Riot has been actively punishing players for going"off-script", to the point where new characters are designed with the specific purpose of fitting in the meta as tightly as possible. For me, the solution would be to open up their game design philosophy and allow many other playstyles and win conditions so that other characters get their spotlight.
@@LaCriaturaDelMar they start to do something about it when it affects proplay. Clepto Coin Vlad/top laners becomes a thing: both the rune and the item get deleted. Enchanters top: nerfed to the ground. Pyke mid: (tried) to nerf for years. Most obvious is probably funnel, these strats are more boring than the gameplay loop we have currently, where you can watch the first ten minutes, wait for the useless Herald flip, and then come back every five minutes to watch the dragon fight
@@scherexyz it actually more interesting than the proplay lope we’ve been watching int actually doing lot of disrespect and overly aggressive which result in more actions and relentless tower defense game.
League of Legends is a team game that's balanced around soloQ, you cannot have it both ways. This game encourages and rewards you for being as selfish as possible and only doing whatever benefits you and nothing else, this strategy is the embodiment of soloQ and I think that if League is actually a team game we should start encouraging team plays instead of punishing the off-meta while allowing Trynda, Fiora, Riven, Yi, and other hypercarries and splitpushers to exist unpunished.
This isn't really relevant, but are you planning to remake the Swain Rework Retrospective? Even though what he got wasn't a full VGU, the overall changes alter his kit alot and make it feel closer to original Swain. It'd be interesting to see you cover it again, comparing Pre-VGU Swain to his most recent mini-rework
@@sammigs34 i played swain before the rework annd i could easily carry once i gt my liandri and zhonya , just ult , dodge cc and damage with shonya , then by that time my ult damag would be charged up , then one shot with that burst damage and my q , now u do no damage at all , keep in mind healing is a worthless factoe compared to damage , as for 800 god u redue the healing by 40 % , and swains heal is not even that high , unless u trigger passive which cant haooen that often , so u get oudamaged with ur ult on , unlike before , pus u can just be cced and kited for 5 sec and ur ult usless really dum changes , no onder he needed a hotfix buff , i hope they buff his damage , or make him more of a drain tank , caise roght now he is in between and does neither role any good
I do think its genuinely questionable how some people think Baus is getting carried by his champion, though. Stuff like "Baus wouldn't be his rank if it wasn't for Inting Sion" grinds my gears.
@@happycamperds9917 i think that is just a bad definition. If you ask me, getting carried means that you get to a rank higher than what you should because your champion is over powered. If you can utilize it well enough as a player, you aren't carried because you are good enough for this rank. Thats how I see it at least
The release times for Vars’ vids are acc so convenient for me- just as I finish off the last of my errands and studies for the day, I get that sweet sweet notification, where the clip lasts exactly the amount of time I need to walk home. Perfect
It does need a certain level of macro knowledge and skill to pull off correctly. Also, from personal experience, I haven't seen many uses of this strategy (EUW bronze). As a niche play style, I enjoy seeing it, as long as it stays a niche play style. Is it toxic? Maybe, but what part of LoL isn’t?
I think the biggest problem is how unfair and unfun it feels to play against. If he’s on your team and doesn’t play it correctly it’s nothing different than a feeder on another champ. When you play against that abomination though, even if he feeds, he will permanently split and punishing him is literally impossible. He will get turrets eventually and that at an alarming pace in the mid-late-game.
Thing is, everyone believes that this strategy is hard, but at the same time, even high elo players have trouble dealing with it most of the times, because you leave him alone on top for a few seconds and he takes a whole turret or two. Not to mention most of the times you won't even be able to deal with him alone, as thanks to hullbreaker and his W passive, he is both tanky and deals damage, which is disgusting. I play in grandmaster and everytime Sion isn't banned and someone picks him, a dodge will happen, because people don't want to play against/with that shit
This happened in ARAM and completely changed my perspective on objective design. Enemy Sion built hullbreaker, I noticed it and pinged it. Entire team laughed and started question marking, cause it's ARAM. Hullbreaker? Seriously? Yeah well we ate our words, once the game got going good his team just sat back, and he would fly at our turret and just die and beat it up. Like no counterplay. Astounded at the efficiency, we just... lost. I felt like a fool for pinging his item and making fun of it. Dumbest thing ever. And yeah, I get it was an ARAM, but point remains. In fact, the fact it worked in that setting might even be more proof to how absolutely stupid the strat is.
@@arturc.6504 Not sure what or when you may be referring to but no. At least as recent as about 3 or 4 weeks ago, when this match happened. I can't speak for the past week or so, but I can for sure tell you that it wasn't disabled before then.
Personally speaking i've always been ok with inting sion before the buffs to hullbreaker,after the buffs its just incredibly annoying for me as the guy that mostly play champs on the tankier side since fighting a sion usually means at a certain point i will just not be able to kill him before he kills tower and even if i win lane stuff like your jnglr and adc chasing after the 1/14 sion for literally 2 minutes when the guy had ghost and ulted away from them to boot,which loses us every objective possible,so personally i do not blame the strategy itself i just blame the item for making it way too easy for sion to get away with the strat
@@delusionofillusion473 i mean yeah that's why i have always been fine with inting sion before,it's just the damn item making him extremely annoying to deal with and it just makes it feel less gratifying to win lane against him cuz it most likely won't matter 70% of the times
As someone who recently picked up this sion strategy. I can actually say its unfair yet fair at the same time At the start it actually boosted my cs/min (increased from 7 to 9-10 cs/min) and I learned more on how to move around the map. That concepts actually is fair since you just punish the enemy for not knowing better The unfair part is the selfishness and pressure of that strat for both sides. The hardest part tbh in my experience is to determine which win condition should I pursue (teamfight or split) since when you choose either one you will lose greater benefits (eg. going for split makes you lose baron/drag control, going for teamfight makes you lose cs/min). Also the game at some point makes me feel like it isn't on my control anymore but on my jungler/adc's knowldege since in some games players don't know what objective to take as 4 which ends to throwing, by me overextending with nothing in return (example is one game wherein they needed camille and yone to handle me and my team still didn't setup baron as they first want to find a pick before starting it) I also infer that sion strat is also helpful towards the game specially in low elo inorder to master the map rather than the champ. Since uptil now I see many people who are good at playing their main champs but are absoulutely trash in playing around the map (like extending their lead) which causes them to be hardstuck in that elo
Inting Sion reminds me of many seasons back when Nasus's pick rate suddenly jumped and he went from being niche and rare to a pick-or-ban champ very quickly, and league players were getting smashed by him until the community started to understand how to deal with him. He slowly became more balanced without number adjustments just because people started to understand how to play against him. Maybe some minor nerfs to Sion would help, but ultimately the community will adjust to dealing with him naturally and it won't be as oppressive.
yeah,alot of people have been saying playing against it is "Unplayable" or "no counterplay" but honestly if you're ahead and beat him in a 1v1 you'd just snowball on him with champs like darius,fiora,etc and then people say "but he's just gonna keep splitpushing top" then so should you if you're ahead,and if he farms up and gets ahead of you, isn't that your mistake? you should farm just as much as him. alot of things come into play here when thinking about the strategy,I don't like complaints like him oneshotting towers or killing people in his passive,cause most "meta" toplaners (mostly bruisers and etc) can do the same if not more than him if they were as ahead as an inting sion in farm at 10cs per min. the fact that the champion has to die to be useful is saying something. if a tryndamere/jax/fiora 1v5s in a splitpush and takes a tower or two no one bats an eye. but when a sion does it! SOCIETY! Society calls it broken.😔
@@lorilorilorienth you ignored the fact that he can usually kill most meta tops in his passive if he is ad, or tank he can just become unkillable and win the game. He isn’t impossible to win against but it feels like hardly anyone can match his pressure. Sure you get kills and fed off int sion but his pressure is relentless.
I personally feel like all dedicated split pushing win conditions are obnoxious and don't deserve to exist. I despise hullbreaker as an item with everything in me. I'm fine with split pushing as a strategy to temporarily draw pressure and leave opportunities to look for picks and take advantage of that, in fact, I love that. It's great, fun, interactive. I think it as a WIN CONDITION is toxic and not great for the game overall, especially items designed around making what should be a pick opportunity generating strategy a win condition.
I thinks it's a good thing overall to have other win condition like splitpusher but sion wasnt meant to such a big splitpusher when he was created (rework) i think someone like Yorick with spell that are overall good and helpfull for split is fine and there should be some the problem lies with The INTING part of sion split push...
I think straight up inting sion, where you just die over and over again for turret damage to chip away at the enenmy structures is very toxic. But what baus is doing, where he dies to obtain a net gain in gold isn't toxic, but should be looked at.
Baus just uses the proxy singed tactics, which were awful to play against when they were meta on singed, except he does it on most champs he plays like cho
@@LlibertarianGalt proxy singed is the most aids thing i have ever experienced. Shits so annoying but theres nothing you can do about it most of the time.
My 2 cents. It’s literally just another way of playing it. If you play it right, you might win, if you play it wrong, you’re bound to lose. With regards to your team or the enemy team, it doesn’t make much of a difference compared to any other strategy. “Oh but the enemy sion is just destroying our towers and we can’t defend”. Could you defend if there was a Fiora that’s playing equally as good as the Sion that’s wrecking you? It’s probably going to be the same result. And for your teammates, would it make any difference if instead of playing a bad inting Sion you were just playing a bad aatrox? Most likely nope. In the end, it’s just another strategy, you can still play a “regular” Sion and that’s part of being good at him: knowing what strategy might work best and guess what, that’s how every single champion is played. If Riot thinks that being able to wreck towers while dead shouldn’t be that punishing for the enemy team, even as a Sion otp I can agree. Once you don’t care if you die or not (because you’re already dead), you can’t be punished in any way while you are able to punish the enemy team, so maybe this change forces people to think a bit more when they should die and when not to do it. Oh and forgot to mention, great vid Vars, as always :)
if it was a fiora instead of a sion, she might kill everyone who sent after her :)). also the he's split pushing and we cant do anything about it, like how about you force a 5 vs 4? or threaten and objective as a team.
One thing you do need to consirder is a bad sion is worse than a bad aatrox. A bad aatrox would die 2ish times, then realize, "Oh, I can't beat this champion without help. I should play passive now" and deaths should stall out. Inting Sion is different, you litterally die so you can damage turrets more. So you are giving gold away no matter what. And if they time it wrong, they give essentially free gold away. Getting someone really fed. Tho if its a bad yas or yone, then it doesn't matter. We all know they like dieing 10 times in 20 minutes
fiora argument is horrible considering fiora cant proc demolish after she is dead, and fiora doesnt get to rack up 4k hp while building enough ad to literally 2 shot towers with r and demolish. ur just a biased sion player. The strat is completely absurd.
@@Ghosta085 nah, Fiora doesn’t proc demolish because she already destroys towers by herself. She has her own playstyle and trying to apply the inting Sion strat to her as a way to disprove me is idiotic. A fed Fiora could very well just kill all the people you sent to defend her and end up in an even worse position than with Sion. Or she could just group with her team and open a new hole on your ass with the rest of her team. The thing is, you’re missing the point of my Fiora example. I’m not saying “Oh but you see, a Fiora would be worse”. I’m saying that any champion that has the ability to be oppressive will be oppressive if played correctly and if it has an advantage. It won’t matter if it’s an inting Sion that has played well and is actually ahead in gold or if it’s a fed Fiora, Aatrox or a stacked Nasus. They can’t destroy towers while dead? Sure, but they can just kill you and then keep pushing, the playstyle may be different, but the end result not so much.
Tl;dr: more strategy is good, but there needs to be more than 1 counter strategies available. Players should be rewarded for recognizing and countering a strategy. My opinion about Sion "tower-breaker" strategy is its a nice variation into the strategy of the game. The problem is lack of punishment for dying, like, if hull-breaker has a draw back if the holder dies. Like, yes, the strategy only works IF you know how to play, but if you do know how to play, then it's pretty hard to counter it. For example, if someone starts the strategy, and the other team recognizes it, they should be able to implement a way to defend against it. As it stands now, the strategy provided a bit too much pressure since, if the jungler needs to get dragon or the top laner needs to to for a team fight, sion can break down a bunch of towers, die, and be ok with that. With how hulk-breaker works, he doesn't need to focus on killing the players that are attacking him, just work on towers. Now, something I think would be cool, is if riot made the item hull-breaker have an extra function that embraced its raid boss nature allowing the team to benefit for taking down someone with it while also giving the holder extra (ontop of what is already there) stats. Like, for ever tower broken by the holder, their death is worth X more gold.
if knowing how to play it means more reward then knowing how to play against it then why isn't baus rank 1 in both EU and KR? yea cause you as a toplaner/jungler can literally get thousands of gold and lot of XP for free to carry the game with. Baus:" if i give you 2000 gold for free just so i can play the game and you cant carry you're dogshit at the game".
As a Sion main I find the passive very underwhelming in the "normal" gameplay. This strategy gives you atleast something to do with it. However I dont enjoy it myself.
I would say let Sion be. It makes thematic sense and it makes game wise. He is a zombie of a legendary warrior. He is also has a mechanic unique to him. Plus this allows top lane to be important, not only late game. Because many times too lane is over looked.
We don't remove Master Yi or Kayle or Kassadin or Vayne or any other champ that hits a major power spike after being useless all game. I know it isn't a perfect example, but it shows the point. You never have control over any of your teammate's champs or your opponents so why should a playstyle be removed just because some people don't want to learn macro. You will always get inters and trolls, on any champion. that does not mean we alter the game. And to be clear I don't like Inting Sion, but the playstyle of semi tank semi ad Sion that CAN use his passive to his benefit is not that. The ability to win through smart macro decisions can seem "cheesy" simply because when you lose by getting backdoor you often do not want to look at your own fault in arriving to the scenario to which you lost to. I do not believe every champion need to be made so that they need to win through team fights or utter lane domination, we have enough of those and let's be honest.... I would rather have games that are decided by smart macro decisions rather than my opponent choosing Yone and just slaughters everyone after a 1-2 item power spike. At least there is depth to Sion's split pushing more so than champions like Tryndamere and more depth than a 1v9 Yi because you didn't pick enough champs with hard crowd control
That's like saying hurting yourself as soraka to gain value some other way is inting. It's just a resource you spend, same for trading. for Sion death is a resource they spend.
This. People don’t realize that league is a game of exchange, and that skill expression is just making the right decisions that give you the most value. If you lose against an inting sion with any of the meta top laners, then you just had worse decisions that game.
Personally, I may have played the game for a long time and I'm not particularly good at the game, more of the casual level to be exact, I feel the "inting Sion" strategy is a bit unfair. It may not be as unfair as Chemdrake buff from a long time ago that was removed but once the strategy gets rolling, it is very difficult to stop it. At least with someone like a Yorick, there is a way to stop him from snowballing out of control, but when you barely manage to win a teamfight and that enemy Sion charges into the tower, often it would require more than 2 people to actively stop him from destroying any more by the time we get there. Given that his Ultimate has a low CD, its difficult to put him down, without dumping a lot of CC beforehand or recall back in time to make it back to the base. It feels like we'd be stuck in a perpetual soft-lock, wipe out the 4 enemy players? better watch out for the Sion using the Ultimate to charge into the nexus. By the time you killed him, you've probably wasted a whole minute and that alone is enough to allow his team to respawn. Overall, I don't like the strategy with the current Sion we have now, if there was a way to nerf him without crippling him, I'd like that.
While I agree with the notion that in itself this is not an illegal move and in fact a niché of "turning deaths into lead", I believe in general as the game is right now, the possibility of being able to turn deaths into lead is an unhealthy element for the game.
I am of the opinion that we should be open to unique strategies instead of shunning people for not following the meta. However, the problem is when I see inting Sions in my ranked games who have no idea how it actually works and are just doing it cause they saw Baus doing it.
@@HamsterPants522 You are correct. But I would prefer they try it in norms first. Inting Sion works because Baus constantly draws pressure while getting 10 cspm and not being worth much gold for the amount of people that come to kill him. But most people don't understand that and just pick AD Sion because of Baus, not because of strategical thinking.
Unique strategies are one thing. Strategies that are antithetical to the game philosophy though, are another. Dying in League should, inherently by the game's design and philosophy, be a negative. It gives the enemy team gold and takes you off of the map for a prolonged period of time, cutting your agency to zero. The game becomes a 4v5 momentarily. It's why late game deaths with long timers are so bad. Dying is not good. Being rewarded for dying is completely opposed to this main game idea. That's when a strategy is toxic. Off meta strats are no problem as long as they follow the game's core fundamental aspects. The problem with a strategy like this isn't that it's not meta. The problem is that it's not _League_ . The game is not balanced to, or set up to, reward for deaths.
@@PsQueak2 I think that is the biggest misunderstanding of inting Sion. You aren’t being rewarded for dying. And this is why almost no other person is having success with this strategy. Baus understands League fundamentally and how map pressure and gold income works to the extreme. Optimally, you should try to die as few times as possible. The reason the strat works is because you acquire more gold than your opponent while also taking away pressure from other lanes so they can more easily acquire objectives. This strategy would work even if you died 0 times. And it also works on other champions too. If you do die at a good time, it is a calculated sacrifice wherein you gain more than you lose. The toxic aspect is Sion himself, not Baus’s strategy. His dead passive is more powerful than his living character. So it is League of Legends themselves who created what you call antithetical to the game. This is also the same with Karthus. Also, the strategy is countered by simply out-csing the Sion and out-pressuring his team. This is why Baus struggled to get out of Grandmaster. The Challenger players in Korea figured this out pretty quickly. So if you have equal gold to Sion, which involves not chasing him around as much and catching your own waves, then you simply beat him.
I rather have to face a 0/11 Sion running at my turret than the Fiora that no matter how many times I ganked still gets a triple kill with that stupid ultimate of hers. Really. Just tonight we tried to stop 0/3 Fiora from taking tier 1 top and she solo killed me (Viego), my mid (Swain) and my ADC (Kai'sa). Like we spent all our CDs and she killed us UNDER OUR OWN TURRET and lived. Parry and R. That's it. Seeing that, I wonder what's more toxic: inting Sion or half of toplane roaster.
I feel like this is more an indictment on Hullbreaker than Sion or Sion's playstyle. I've dealt with Int Darius, Int Jax, Int Rek'Sai. Hullbreaker allows you to be 4 levels behind but still be allowed to win a lead.
That just bruiser in general, not hullbreaker allow them to but bc bruiser can do that, pretty sure jux can do the same thing by buying botrk and darius can do the same thing with gore into death dance.
I Think It is toxic since the argument that the runes, items and champ that makes this playstyle gives the player agency is true. It takes the agency away from the 5 enemies that is against the playstyle. what do you do against a splitpusher or lategame scaler? Shut him down early, but if that option is legit useless since he still gets insane value out of dying then what options are you even left with?
I feel that rogue or alternative strategies should be in a place in which they are decided on to be used after all champions have been locked in, something tactical that can be used. If people queue up expecting to play such a strategy it becomes toxic as its not a tactical choice to counter what is happening anymore. for example split pushing can be used as a tactic if you don't have a great teamfight comp but queueing up and expecting to just splitpush even before any champ has been chosen makes the strategy toxic. It is too mainstream viable to be a counter
This is completely wrong. The entire process of climbing in solo q is developing a framework that is replicable. You need to be able to follow your strategy consistently each game, with some level of flexibility depending on the game. There is only so much variability that is possible, based on your champion. If you expect your Nasus to play roaming to the early game or your Yorick to constantly group mid, you don't understand how the champions work. The reason for inting sion being toxic is that is rewards bad gameplay, i.e. feeding your opponent.
So, if your teams say so you just don't get to play the champions or playstyles you want? I play games to win and be a team player, but if I want to play Kayle and just scale to late game I don't care if my teammates disagree, I should get to play how I want as long as I am trying to win.
@@PedroAce The key word is in "alternative" strategies. strategies that go against the norm such as dying repeatedly or stacking bounties so your one carry can collect them all. These kind of strategies that break the norm. Picking for late game or early game does not fall under this.
So I play trynd/GP top and sion is permaban because he (for my champs) is permanently unkillable and I have to be the one to respond to him which means I can’t do what I want to do aka splitpush or get picks/team fight, I feel sion is unhealthy as well because if you don’t have someone on your team who does dmg to tanks you lose, he’s one of the few champs that will make you actually lose in champ select
This champion is more than unhealthy, I played against him just today as Darius where I killed him with R, Killed his passive he TP'ed back in, I did it again and killed his passive with R and he then ulted back into lane. It is impossible to get tempo or a favorable back timing against this pick, I killed him 4 times in 45 seconds and it wasn't enough to stop him from farming or even expose a tower plate so I could reap the rewards of killing him, because his death timer starts the second he dies which can mean he has no downtime on the map early game.
Yes you speak as if it's hard to kill sion early but Without that Sion would be litterally shit since his spells do shit damage early and everyone with dash/stun fucks him up compleetely Riot should probably rework or at least fix some parts of his kit
@@lucabiagianti3224 reworking his kit is the only answer, changing some of it is not enough - he needs a new identity as a juggernaught that isn't kept alive after death.
@@lucabiagianti3224 my point is I am playing one of the best early game champions in the game that is risky and susceptible to crowd control and only really has damage to offer and even on that champion played to near perfection there is no window I can exploit in killing him that will give me tempo advantage so I can get some tower damage in or deny him CS.
@@Spartantag676 yes you can't deny cs but you still get a ton of gold in the process Sion in that case no matter what won't be able to do nothing, and there is no "perfect" game in an unplayable matchup between Sion and Darius the real problem I think is the absurd damage to towers, in fact the only way Sion can win is by breaking plates and gaining gold by nerfing the passive damage Sion will get hit pretty hard, I am Gold and I don't have a clear view of the game but the only things making this old champion work are the passive and tricks that weren't predicted to work as they are being used right now
For some reason, yasuo/yone, immediately after minor item nefs- get the buff back, and this does not bother anyone. There is a shaco who has NO clear strategy to outplay him against, and no amount of wards will really help here, given his abilities. This champion is able to annoy all lanes, but he is also not nerfed. But as soon as one noticeable to the whole world Sion appeared, they immediately try to lower it below the plinth by global nerfs. Mm, "love" the league
I would actually be more curious to see people come up with a way to try counter this. People should be rewarded in finding a new strategy and Rito needs to stop forcing champions into the image they want them to be.
I think the biggest problem is people who play this only see the strat as "Sion die = good" when Baus is on a whole nother level. He knows so much about the game he can do this strategy without actually giving the opponent that much of a lead. He can use the pressure of hull breaker Sion and his wave management to actually impact the game. When most everyone else tries this, they don't actually know how complex the strat is, think dying is good and all they do is let the enemy top lane go 8/0 with 190 CS at 15 minutes who then just wins the game by themselves while the sion player thinks he's good because he got 1 tower
I have always appreciated weird unconventional champs I love singed and malzahar and I really hated that zrodportal was taken away hullbreaker gave Sion a chance to be unconventional in an effective way soo even though I admit that it can be a horrible pain in the ass to face in lane I appreciate the fact that it exists in league not everything needs to revolve around an edgy 1v9 hipermovile slayer killing everything in sight sometimes you just want to play something weird or dumb
The thing with inting sion is he isnt really feeding. The amount he gets out of it mid and top is so much compared to what he loses, so much so that in certain matchups he will int and still be than any of the other most of your team. I love playing sion but this shit is so toxic lmfao
If riot wants sion to not be played like this, then ACTUALLY make sions kit not so punishing to play. Everything is telegraphed and dodgeable and his damage is fine IF you are able to land it. His kit is just too outdated in a meta of everyone having mobility and movement speed steroids.
So I know this one person who always says to other people how he got "unfairly permabanned". This guy loves playing this kind of picks, another one that he uses is going double ADC botlane whenever he gets autofilled to support because, hear this, "more carries, more chances to win". This guy is seriously insane. He always throw tantrums whenever he doesn't get his way, always complaining about his enemy laner because "they are so broken". This guy also loves to boast that if he gets "serious" he would be plat in no time, and that he's "too busy" to play ranked. Mind you, this guy is silver and averages 10-12 deaths per game, even as the team carry. I would loved to shit talk this guy all day if he weren't an acquaintance of a friend. I was relieved when he said that he was going to quit league after he got permabanned, but I still sometimes still see him play. He has since toned down but is still occasionally seen raging like a bull.
I hate this because people is convinced there is no wrong way to play inting Sion. No dude, you diying to Darius 3 times in a row before 5 min into the game is not how you are supposed to play it....
In a game where champions like camille deal more true damage on a Q than chogath does with his ult, I think it is pretty safe to say that Riot clearly doesn't focus on the interaction of a champion with the others but rather on 1v1 scenarios or on the champion itself without puttin much thought into it. Otherwise, I can't explain how new champions almost ALWAYS need to get nerfed or even (soft) REWORKED in the first couple of days. While it may not seem healthy for the game, as you said, the Sion player doesn't break any rules. He uses the kit that he's got and makes the most out of it. Saying that he should be banned is the same as saying Yone players should be banned because their champion can go 1/10 and can 1v2 with a shieldbow.
i cant count how many times i sneaked an inhib then did the baus special and ended the while the enemie team was fighting over the drake its even better when its a soul and even if they come top if i already did the baus special its too late for them as they have to take down a 4k hp sion whit a ton of armor chipping theyre base whit hull braker and even if they kill you ur passive hits faster and stroger then ulti and ven if u end up dying u can just tp back to a ward and end even whit out minions so its toxic if u dont know how to take car of it i had 0/20 kda in alot games but the price to pay if u want to win
Toxic. The game is meant to be about dying being punishing, the fact it's entirely negated not only by Sions inting playstyle, but with the implementation of champions like Akshan, it makes me wonder why they removed the 'revive' summoner spell in the first place other than to make it a passive gimmick.
It's a bit strange to me how people react so strongly about this sion strat being "unfun" for everyone else in the game. LoL is a game literally built on that premise, just look at things like kha'zix, yasuo, katarina, vayne, teemo, elise etc. The main point of these champions existing is to make certain kinds of champions on the enemy team not have fun. imo the reason people react so strongly specifically to inting sion and his most reliable counterplay (gain a gold lead from killing him and snowball over the rest of the map with that gold lead). is because a good part of this is in the hands of the jungler and because it's the same counterplay option availible vs a Yuumi. You essentially have to play a perfect game vs it and in unorganized play that's just rarely going to happen, which makes it feel frustrating to face. A bit of a similar premise to Master Yi i guess.
The issue with inting sion is that 9 other people have to pick and play around that one pick. The enemy team has to assume that his team is going to play around him, and pick champions that can not only deal with the rest of his team, but can effectively stop him with cc and true damage. His team has to assume the sion knows what he's doing, or be prepared if he doesn't. They have to be ready to fight a 4v5. It's not fun because it forces other people to play a certain way.
I literally lost a game where my team was losing for 80% of the game but because our top laner got stomped and no one but the fed Ashe ADC (myself) could handle him. We were starting to make a comeback but we just lost a battle of attrition because of him repeatedly ‘inting’ down top lane to kill turrets and finally our nexus with nearly nothing I could do to stop him. Even with Bork/Guinsoo/Kraken/Lord Dom’s it took about ten long seconds to kill him. It’s really, really annoying to just lose a game like that
2:02 *True* You don't miss out on anything from not playing except toxic matches and 20 mins of waiting for the game to end. Everyone's just waiting for *URF*
Toxic 100%. If you look at the strat it is actually just overpowered. At a certain point the passive becomes so powerful it’ll take a tower before two people can kill you. It’s extreme pressure that nobody else can exert without another champ at their side.
I kind of disagree with the notion that split pushing is inherently a non team focused strat. Split pushing does focus more on the solo independence of a champ and them pushing that lead to such an astronomical extent that they draw massive attention even if they aren't or are doing something on the map. A real life analogy is sports, whether it's basketball, American football, soccer, etc the opponent is trying to win by preventing the ball from going into a goal and while that happens the offense is trying their best to get that ball into the goal. The same way in league both sides play offense and defense at certain moments to claim their tempo and control over the game i.e an imaginary ball just how if you're the player with the ball in your hands you hold all the power in the moment of the game. Now when the offense is trying to get the ball to the wanted area they employ fakes, jukes, side cuts, etc to open up options for the ball handler to possibly use and open up the defense by pull them and stretching on them to see cracks or openings to win. The same way a split pusher crashes into towers while an objective is up and how it stretches and pulls the enemy team into deciding "do I stop the split pusher from gaining an advantage or claim an advantage myself from the objective" the same way a defender in basketball might be put in a pick and roll and now decide "do I guard the shooter from taking an easy shot or guard the cutter from taking an easy basketball" and that is something sports have been using for hundreds of years if not thousands. Even if games like chess there are deterrents or baits forcing the opponent to choose what the condition is to win. This is also how pros acknowledge split pushing or used to in seasons -7 when split pushing was more viable where if you win the lane top or mid now you have the control and power over your laner which means if you decide to go and split now your laner has to deal with you or ask the other people on his team to deal with your in a 1v1 1v2 1v3 etc which opens up win conditions for your team like dragon or a favorable team fight or baron or towers on the other side of the map. Which is why I agree with vers saying that players especially low ELO players need to learn the macro of the game and not just pick Yone, yas, Irelia, kat etc and try to put mechanic your enemy into submission.
yas does it too but he dosent even push , antways , i love inting sion , i play darius top mostly , and forme that is a free lane that i can bully out of existence , get super fed and snowbll teamfights, just zone him away from te wawe and his passive wont help him scale , and of he misteps or some xp , just kill him , there is no way a sion can kill a darius with his passive , if u killed him with ult , just auto him and oone shot the zombie with ult , if u dont have ult , just e him or w him and walk awy with q
Hey guys, I had an idea today : imagine a new item that does the opposite of hull breaker? Like giving u resistances and damage on structures only when you're surrounded by your allies (2 champions minimum) ! That could maybe push people to team fight with their Toplaner?
just have the supp grab it an we're good to go, there is literally no reason for a top laner to build this. and with a 2 champ min, would actually be better bot lane where there is, get this, 2 champs
@Jksm Mkv well it's a been while since tanks were relevant due to the damage creep in the game. And it people actually grouping to take an objective is healthier than one champion being unstoppable because he built a specific item at least in my opinion
@@volcanicviper5984 well the item is a fighting item (with AD, health, regen, resistances) made for toplaners. Despite some of them being tanky he's not supposed to be a walking powerhouse Frontline. Plus they need other items to actually support the whole team. And when I said 2 champions minimum I meant that you would need 2 extra people with you for the hullbreaker passive to activate (so basically at least 3)
i going to be 100% on with you, this sounds like its a toxic strategy that abuses how league is built via kills and shutdown money. and anyone that defend this ranges form reasonable to huffing glue kinda dumb. "its not a exploit or a bug" is a horrible argument to a question of unintended playstyle.
I like alternative win conditions and I'm all for top laners having more agency especially because I myself play top but I don't think inting Sion's is a good way to go about it. It's more volatile in a team environment than most other outlandish strategies and when perfected it is pretty much guaranteed value no matter how the enemy plays around it. Killing a splitpusher should matter. Sion can diminish and eventually downright negate that weakness as he scales which leads to a very non-interactive experience in the long term as he just ends up ignoring core aspects of the game in ways no other champion can and other champions are not remotely equipped to deal with something that is so out there. Inting Sion is essentially playing a different game than everyone else. At least with someone like Singed you can straight up stop him in his tracks, kill him and he's left with nothing but the few minions he managed to proxy before he died. Inting Sion is pretty much Singed combined with Yorick's tower pushing but stripped off most of the weaknesses and consequences of both. If people wanna play that sort of playstyle they should either be playing Singed for proxy scaling playstyle or Yorick for the tower splitpushing playstyle. Inting Sion existing straight up spits on both of their niche by doing both of their jobs better simultaneously by himself while being even more disruptive for a team environment and lacking clear consistent ways to play around and against him in a soloq environment, far more than the average oddball playstyle.
"He can be 0/20 but be Just as dangerous as a Nasus with 1k stacks. Except Nasus doesnt have the Luxury to fall behind." Are you talking about: Yasuo, Yone, Jax, Fiora, Irelia, Riven, Darius-
I think it’s bad for the game. It’s unfun for both sides. The enemy team have to deal with obnoxiously efficient macro that has little counter play and the friendly team has to deal with a 5v4 the whole game against a fed top and/or jungler.
realistically, top and jungle aren't gonna be that fed comparatively. At some point, Sion's gonna be worth less gold for dying so much, and Sion's team is gonna have all the opportunities in the world to get dragons, get bot lane ahead, and take actually impactful objectives
doesn't matter if you need skill to pull off or not, it's degenerate enough that it shouldn't be in the game, blind insistence shouldn't be rewarded, every other splitpusher needs to at least survive until taking tower, sion on the other hand can just get near enough it and the natural tankyness + broken gold efficiency will take care of it
Even though it is remarkable how this playstyle changes ones understanding of the game I still think it is unhealthy. Unless you counter him Sion doesnt fall behind. Not in a way that tanks have cc no matter how behind they are, he literally doesnt lose gold and xp like other champions do when they die. If he dies, he still gets the wave and can pressure you enough that you cant get plates unless any form of roam or gank at that time is ruled out. His passive in concept does a great job at causing a disruption in a teamfight, which is his job as a tank. But how it curerntly works it can be abused too easily. He gets kills, towerdamage and minions while others cant and thus doesnt fall behind. If his passive would scale with level or gametime he couldnt int through the entire laningphase while losing almost nothing and scaling safely.
Another proposed solution: make it so that Sion can't auto when dead, and instead gets the following abilities while his passive is in effect. Q - Punch an enemy champ. (Short cooldown, like a melee-range Zeri Q. Only targets enemy champs, but otherwise functions exactly like an auto.) W - Run faster for a while. (Like his current passive ability.) E - Slow enemies around you briefly. This would keep the use of his passive as a teamfight-disrupting tank, or a champ that can revenge kill you like Karthus or Kog'Maw (so Lethality Sions get their kicks too) while making it impossible for him to use it as a pushing tool.
Even before launching the video This is the most toxic strat ever Rewarding a player for intentualy feeding and giving an objective to a player who failed in the skill, mechanic, and fighting of the game only to just ult the turrets die and kill them until none are left is like giving yone the ability to criticaly strike tureets and heals off them in the same time affecting them with 4 times E true damge FOR JUST PICKING THE CHAMP YOU SHOULD NOT WIN REGARDLES OF PERFORMANCE THIS IS THE OPOSITE OF WHAT LEAGUE STANDS FOR
Sion’s skill expression comes in the form of wave and objective management. A good Sion will make the game unplayable for the enemy team despite having a bad kda due to really high cs and tower damage, and a bad Sion will have a bad kda, be losing in cs, and be outdamaged on turrets. Although the metrics of skill are different than most champs, there is still skill to be expressed.
I don't think lethality Sion Is unfair,but tank Sion? Definitely. Lethality Sion has to hit ult or q or use the passive effectively to get kills or ahead plus he's squishy compared to the tank one,meanwhile a Sunfire,Titanic Sion with a fully stacked passive can melt you by just standing there even with 18 deaths.
In all honesty: I hope, that the Hullbreaker rush into uninteractive gameplay comes to proplay and ruins the MSI... because then Riot will do something about it, just like they did with Jungle Funnel or roaming smite top. Here is my problem: I once had a 1-5 Mundo become an unstoppable split push force, even for my 5-1 ADC, once he finished that item... I actually stopped playing ranked, as I realized, that the team, that builds Hullbreaker, just wins and me playing well as a Support and getting my ADC ahead had no impact on winning... at least in my Gold Elo. If all you can do is pray, that your Toplaner realized this, the item is bad... And I have no problem with split push as an optional win condition. With someone realizing: This is the best thing, I can do right now... I have a problem, when someone decides to 100% commit to this strat with his first buy. Now it has been a couple of patches since, so maybe it got fixed...
As a toplaner myself i respect Inting Sion around 80% and loathe it around 20% No, i do not play Sion Yes, it's not easy to play, but a lot of toxic mechanics are involved in the strategy that makes it often extremely hard to punish without really much though going into it. I'll be honest, im around P2-P3 toplane player on EUW, and it doesn't take a genius to get 9+ cs per minute on Sion, since even if you die you still get CS. It doesn't take a genius to choose a sidelane where you think there's no action in the near future, ult from fog, crash into a tower and kill it. Yes, the strategy is hard to pull off perfectly, but a lot of the times you can do a bunch of mistakes and it will still work. Sion's R damage to towers is just way too much, Sion gets too many base stats (so, between autos and Demolish, AD or tank you still do way way too much damage to structures), Q W E have way too much instant waveclear, R is too effective of an escape tool, but the most outrageous thing is the passive. Usually in league if you kill a champion you deny him resources, denying the enemy top 1-2 waves worth of gold and especially EXP is way more important than getting 300 G. But, assuming you actually KILL the Sion (because remember, he can recall TP pre6, Recall R to lane post 6 and then recall TP into Recall R back to lane again and again if you dont kill him) not only he will get all the farm while dead, but he's so strong in his passive (combined to the fact that he's dead, so he can full banana with no consequences) that he often zones you off the wave when you kill him. You killed the enemy champion and YOU get pushed in, you are forced to stay to clear this wave and the next and hopefully you can clear it fast enough to actually base. And to pour salt on the wounds Sions' death timer starts when he dies, so his death timer is ticking down during his passive. And he gets a lot of lifesteal in his passive, so if he's allowed to hit something (and he's allowed, if you get close he'll run you down) he lifesteals and gets to be around in zombie mode for even longer. And God forbit he's AD Sion with Phase Rush and Prowler, or you have to run a full screen away from his corpse to not get oneshot. Talk about getting the ultimate prio WHILE YOU ARE DEAD. Sion players very likely play with less grayscreen than most players even tho they go 10+ death most games, how is that fair? What do i have to do to win the lane, Riot?!? As a Camille player i found myself often killing the Sion only to have to run from the corpse, getting the wave pushed in, being forced to stay to push the next 2 (since Camille has ass for waveclear) and look, the Sion's back, he deletes the wave in 2 seconds while im recalling, and i'll find myself one level and three plates behind despite being 4 0. Such a meme xD
*Rito:* Not Nerfing Fiora, GP, Aatrox, Lulu, Camile, Riven, Qyiana and more Also *Rito:* Nerf Sion bc he is becoming popular And I think Sion is good bc it shows what is wrong with the game. Sion champion with so little good match ups gets a Nerf when all above, and more, champions don't. Rito is just dumb.
Very uninteractive to play against whenever I face it, stomping him in lane does nothing especially if I don’t scale into late game on some characters. I know what my answer it but I’m interested to see your take
Correct me if i am wrong but, the community is blaming the champion for a player issue? Baus is playing inting sion but he is doing it in a tactical way that leads to him winning while the community is just inting on sion trying to imitate him and ofc failing at it in the most part right? So how is this the champion's fault, it is clearly ppl trying to do something that they cant do. If sion needs to be fixed or reworked i dont think it would be for this reason.
Even when it works its not healty for the game or your team mates. Yeah Sion can have fun for the game, but when rest of the team needs to deal with 6-0 Camille and 5-0 kha jungle its not very fun. I dont have problem with "new" strategies, but this is not healty for the game like perma roaming support top laners
@@tunteisiin but for Camille, it's not just early, with DS and her 2nd Q she makes any scaling you have redundant, because she'll still kill you with 78% true damage anyways.
@@tunteisiin this is why the “inting” strat started gaining traction, because if you’re gonna get stomped early game, you may as well get as much out of it as you can to prepare for later stages. All they really need to do to discourage this playstyle would be to make him a bit more early game skewed rather than a hyperscaling late game monster.
@@kreeperkiller4423 well hes late game isint that strong when enemys have fullbuild tanks fall. I would say more that hes mid game is too strong cause hes items dont cost that mutch
Before watching the video: It promotes something that is normally seen as griefing [Inting], but Sion's entire design is about gaining value when he dies. Tryndamere was the be-all end-all split push king before Hullbreaker [Fight me]. He got free crit, great escape, chunky heal, great chase, oppressive slow if you aren't facing him, and an ult that lets you just ignore stupid situations for kills. With 'Inting Sion', you're just playing to his kit's strong points. The issue is that Riot has removed items like Ohmwrecker and Zz'rot from the game, limiting either strong items that can be used in conjunction with different win-cons or outright removing potential winc-cons [Both being respective to the listed items.] There should always be at least 2 win conditions in a video game, but Riot seems to have made it their goal to force players into the 'First to get an ace late game wins' type of win condition where you seemingly MUST fight 5v5 to win. Hullbreaker was added because they destroyed Teleport early game and needed to do SOMETHING to try and prevent Top Laners from remaining the island that they are, while Inting Sion is just making value from your entire kit. I think it isn't healthy per-say, but it isn't outright griefing because you're playing will all the tools your champion has.
When the first rule is “don’t die” and a character can laugh at this rule it’s already a rough topic. But here, people are just abusing the “second chance to do more damages” to just destroy objectives and, even if it has a strategy behind, doesn’t make it healthy for the game. It’s literally like having a countdown to win the game until the Sion destroy his lane and proceeds to rush down the enemy nexus. If we had the amount of players that are ruining the games of others for trying that strategy and failing, it’s not a healthy thing neither Sion win or lose. I understand that it’s the point of this champ to be able to revive and destroy things but here, it’s like a Tryndamere use the 5 seconds of his ult just to hit a tower. I mean, it’s useful in a way but it’s not gonna be fun for anyone. For the team with Sion, they have a permanent void in their team fights because the Sion will 98% of the time be split pushing and for the enemy team, they have to constantly balance a thing that destroy turrets almost as fast as Yorick and can get back to lane with 2 ways, rundown a turret while dead and has an ult that deals damages to structures (Demolish scales on HP) and can easily 1v1 pretty much any champion with little escape thanks to Prawler’s claw. The fact that he can use items while dead may be a part of the problem, or the Hurlbreaker, or his ult doing damages to structures, or his W passive… Or all of those combined I honestly don’t know how they can solve this issue but making his structures damages reduced by 50% doesn’t seem to be a viable solution
Removing Hullbreaker would go a long way. It's kind of dumb how they've balanced top lane - hullbreaker is OP and allows way too many champions to permasplit. It makes top lane feel strong, but not in a fun way. I play top lane to duel and raidboss, not to coinflip whoever gets hullbreaker first
loke you said the issue isn't sion he has been the same champ since i started playing back in 2017, i think riot cant think outside the box when it comes to letting every champ be able to pick every item. look at kat for example she used to be a ap burst assassin but now you go bork and divine sunderer and you do akali's job better then herself
@@scoutboy776 yeah, I forgot to mention that but I don’t have any problem with Sion. I understand that his split pushing strat is just his playstyle but my problem with inting Sion is how people are abusing Sion’s kit, items and runes. Sion is healthy but he is put in a game with stuff that, once mixed up, create that atrocious feeling of ticking bomb. I don’t have a problem with the split pushing in general. As much as I hate it, I don’t consider it toxic in the slightest because it’s part of the game and it train players to look at the map more often (I look at you low Elo players >:( )
The problem with inting Sion is how impossible it is to defend against for the enemy team, the only way to win when the Sion is playing correctly is to have some hyper scaler like Kayle or Veigar. Druttut talked about how awful it feels to play against Baus and in the regard I think the strategy is toxic for the game
no WAY is this healthy. A game like League should never have the most oppressive strategy in the game involve intentional death. Just the fact that Sion needs a whole ass team to kill him is broken enough. Put his passive, ult, Hullbreaker, and teleport on top of all of that and you have a ridiculously unhealthy champ
True, he's getting nerfed but it's just his tower damage in his passive, which isn't useful anyways as inting sions just shove the wave as soon as they get killed.
Its definitely an interesting concept similar to how dying doesn't really matter on singed, I'm not sure how healthy characters like that are for the game but it is kind of hilarious to watch
Inting Sion is alright in my opinion, but what I hate is when Sion ults away while screaming 'cowards' This goes against his lore and is unfair to play against. He rocks up, takes a tower, takes half an hour to kill while killing two people with him and then ults away I'd love to see riot nerf his ability to ult away
To me its just not fun to play against or with. Pisses me off when i see it cause like how is that fun . Smashing your face into towers, not interacting with ANYONE and just running down a lane just sucks. The win doesn't feel earned or rather just unfair. I don't play ranked and never will and i'm slowly losing interest in league again( i stopped acouple times in the past) but when i see this, even my friends would rather ff15 than spend 30mins dealing with that bs but we cant cause 4/5 is not enough for a team to surrender.
Baus himself says he never thinks about the enemy's position on the map and he never tries to track the jg while easily hitting Challenger, ruining games for everyone in the lobby. The fact that even the legion of boosted Plats and below can replicate this strategy and find success is evident of how unhealthy this strategy is
He never said he didn't track enemy jg. What I do know he did say was when he was watching a Skillcapped video, he said that he doesn't think of the complicated junglers clearing, camps and pathing. If you watch his streams, he's aware of junglers positioning. Like any other challenger player
@@xenos_28 where tell me one player that has gotten too 50 challenger in euw tell me another sion player that uses this strat there but I can tell u 50 fiora and 50 tryndamere
I'm of two minds. First, inting Sion puts both your own and the enemy team in a very difficult position where they must play around your wincon. To the point that it's not viable at all in low elo, even if you execute it perfectly. In that sense it is unhealthy because of how heavily the Sion player warps the game around him. However, my other thought is that inting Sion is good for the game because of how much it shows fighting or KDA do not matter as much as people think. I think it can be toned down, but I'd like to see it stay in the game.
I don't really mind this inting sion, maybe because I came from Dota before League It's not something that felt new to me. Back in 2013, there was a Dota 2 team that won The International bc of split pushing. The strat was called Rat Dota by the Alliance And it was cheesier than this They were using Global teleports(prophet and Io) to destroy structures and then back off. In dota, you can actually outdamage backdoor protection if you have enough damage and AS.
Well it seems like the coreans complained enough since Sion AND Hullbreaker are both getting nerfed next patch. I can't answer the question if it is healthy but I think it is a good thing that leauge is not as 1 dimensional as shooters and death's are not only bad things honestly you can do good death on every champ as long as you get enough out of it. The thing I like about this strategie is that it speaks more to the primal nature of the game your objective is not to kill the enemy but to make there Nexus explode and to do that you have to get theire turrets first not kill theire champions and I think it is cool to have a champ in the game that tries to play the game that way. I also just like leauge because of it's diverse play styles there are'nt to many games were you can play wizards guys with guns and big tanky warriors in that are as balanced as leauge. Now I had people in my game in the past too that did this and I was both getting carried by them just taking the Nexus at some point and pissed by them just dying without archiving anything but I think every stratgie that makes the game less 1 dimensional without beeing totaly broken is good.
Before watching the video Because i enjoyed watching baus play it in korea and it was an interesting insight, i did also try ut out myself, decent winrate in silver and the best cs ive ever had with only ever losing to divine fioras and rivens (one toplane ap varus as well). And ive also had to play against it, i wouldn't call it toxic, because there are ways to play against it, if you change or adapt your playstyle and mamy other things the comments have alreayd mentioned. Honestly as a low elo toplaner who does not play the fancy waifu champs, it felt nice to feel like i actually had an impact in games for a change
So in League community there is this tendency to hate on any new feature, new champs, new dragons, new items; for league players everything new is wrong. So this playstyle is a punch to those players that just think that league is a lineal game where you win lane, you win fights you win the game, when it is way more than that. I think any new strategies like this is completely healthy, it just requires the player to think about macro and the game, not just aram on midlane/river. It requires both coordination for the enemy and the ally team, so the next time you see one in your soloQ games, instead of getting tilted and trying to 1v9; think about how to break the enemy nexus.
I think it's unhealthy because it is the least fun thing to play against I have ever fucking seen. I cant stand champs whose entire gameplan makes them the center of attention but it reaches a new low when killing that character is somehow detrimental to you
I've seen Yasuo players do this. Though I can't tell if they're doing it intentionally
Genius
Usually is intentional after the 4th death - then they run it down for reals.
We...we arent😔
theyre just trying to reach their 0/10 powerspike
Bro it’s not even a meme- strategy goes like: die 10 times, carry the game with 2 items while everyone else is at 4 each..WHAT THE FUCK
Riot wanted to make top lane more of an island thanks to the TP changes and the introduction of hullbreaker. This is simply an outcome of their design choices for the game.
Actual facts my guy
Honestly at this point they should just put a big fricking wall in between top lane and the rest of the map then the only way you could leave is when teleport unlocks halfway through the game.
As a toplane main, mega agree on this
@EnMatte HAHAHA great idea
Don't forget that it massively buffed Shen. Can't forget how bad that suck off weebs.
My only issue with int Sion is that it becomes completely my problem as the top laner to deal with. It's not hard to deal with. It's just annoying to know that if I don't constantly stop him my team will just let him get all 11 towers.
that's not a problem with Sion, it's a problem with splitpushing in general
DISCLAIMER: this is a common personal experience from a low elo player and it may be different to your own.
As a splitpush main I can say that your own team normally hates this too. You generally get a lot of all chat messages saying "report [x champ] they aren't grouping mid to teamfight" all the while they hide under tower flaming while you are getting 5 manned in another lane. No problem with getting 5 manned on my end so long as I survive or can go 1 for 1 but come on at least push a lane or take an objective...
Facts, but illaoi, yorick and others do the same thing, so its kind of a pick your poison angle. At least vs sion you are the one getting the lead most of the time, instead of getting denied cs by those i mentioned above.
@@gankutsuou2647 Its A sion problem, because only sion can die All The time and still get value, other split pusher need to kill you or back when you contest them.
It becomes a 1v1 and 4v4
Honestly, its unhealthy, but when champs like riven and fiora exist, id much rather lane vs this.
Thats what I am saying tho in my opinion in is not toxic bc it gives a way to play the game other than go against fiora irelia forget riven every fukcintg game this is a good way to counter that in some way
@@jeanalvarez7051 sion gets insanely countered by fiora tho, imho the most unplayable matchup in the game
@Neko Rosaria Ive only seen baus win a few fiora lanes. Its an awful mu, and when light fighters get fed, riven, fiora, jax, etc, they 1v9 the game, making inting sion feel more like a gimmick than a legit strat.
Inting sion isn't toxic bc there ways to counter picking snowball champs, not allowing the sion to proxy(if he ults body block it, if he tries to walk or flash just kill him before he touches the wave and finally go proxy yourself. The last one may sound stupid but this is the legitimate way to counter Simon's strategy
@@ioannapavlou8271 Simon's strategy
Well, it depends. When I charge into an enemy turret, it's always when the turret is already close to destruction and I know that the enemy team is far enough away that they won't be able to stop me. This is also useful for drawing enemies away from objectives like Baron or Dragon, which can give my own team a chance to steal, or give them better odds in a fight, since someone, usually one or two of the more powerful enemy Champions, will be busy trying to take me down.
Anyone who throws themselves at a full-health turret without any sort of plan other than "Run in, punch, die, punch some more," isn't even trying to win the game, as far as I'm concerned.
The problem is that what you are describing in the second paragraph is working (at least at the low elo I am) and it is very frustrating
The fact hullbreaker gives 200% damage to turrets when you're without champions negates the damage reduction you get from not having minions at tower is just like..
How long is 200 years really?
The strategy requires knowledge, but is really toxic for your team (a lot of 4v5 or avoiding fights constantly) and the other team (constant “not fun” pressure). It’s the opposite of fun and interactive
@@LlibertarianGalt it gives you 20%
Ngl i love playing with sions & splitpushers as adc, just match him with your team, setup vision in enemy jg and its free turrets
Inting Sion's biggest flaw is really the fact that it's "newbie bait". Saw a few videos on UA-cam of someone playing it and winning and now they think they can do it too, as you've said. The problem is, how do you deal with that? How can you convince people easily that actually this is a pretty hard, even if effective, strategy that not anyone can pull off?
yeah building hull breaker first is the most idiotic thing you build it second
@@inqusitorlime9551 there is this guy in EUW challenger who is the reason for this whole shabang, don’t think that you heard about him. He rushes Hullbreaker
People will learn on their own
@@scherexyz isnt TheBaus playing in korea now?
@@alex2005z Pretty sure he's bouta leave Korea he reached Challenger and he felt like people didn't really like him especially after the 2-18 faker incident.
I think it's healthy to have an alternative win-condition like this that still requires skill expression (through macro knowledge + application.)
I think it's unhealthy that Sion is uniquely good at this, since he will always be, de facto, the best split-pusher/side-lane farmer because his kit intrinsically benefits this style of play. This means that the balance and effectiveness of other split-pushing champions depends indirectly on Sion.
You can nerf other parts of Fiora's kit (like duelling potential) if she becomes too effective at split-pushing, but if Sion is too good at split-pushing then split-pushing *itself* (side tower gold, hullbreaker, etc.) has to be nerfed, since he is good at it in virtue of his passives and Q wave clear.
In effect, Sion means that other champions that could benefit from this style of side lane dominance through farming and pushing aren't allowed to, since Sion forces Riot to put an artificial cap on the strategy.
I agree with you, but isn't that true for any alternative or non-meta strategies that have popped out throughout the game's lifetime?
I think the problem here doesn't lie in Sion's effectiveness at this particular strategy, but rather the fact that Riot has been actively punishing players for going"off-script", to the point where new characters are designed with the specific purpose of fitting in the meta as tightly as possible.
For me, the solution would be to open up their game design philosophy and allow many other playstyles and win conditions so that other characters get their spotlight.
Yorick>
@@LaCriaturaDelMar they start to do something about it when it affects proplay. Clepto Coin Vlad/top laners becomes a thing: both the rune and the item get deleted. Enchanters top: nerfed to the ground. Pyke mid: (tried) to nerf for years. Most obvious is probably funnel, these strats are more boring than the gameplay loop we have currently, where you can watch the first ten minutes, wait for the useless Herald flip, and then come back every five minutes to watch the dragon fight
@@BunnyChannel918 Yorick
@@scherexyz it actually more interesting than the proplay lope we’ve been watching int actually doing lot of disrespect and overly aggressive which result in more actions and relentless tower defense game.
League of Legends is a team game that's balanced around soloQ, you cannot have it both ways. This game encourages and rewards you for being as selfish as possible and only doing whatever benefits you and nothing else, this strategy is the embodiment of soloQ and I think that if League is actually a team game we should start encouraging team plays instead of punishing the off-meta while allowing Trynda, Fiora, Riven, Yi, and other hypercarries and splitpushers to exist unpunished.
the fuck have hypercarries to do with that? stay on topic lmfao
This isn't really relevant, but are you planning to remake the Swain Rework Retrospective?
Even though what he got wasn't a full VGU, the overall changes alter his kit alot and make it feel closer to original Swain.
It'd be interesting to see you cover it again, comparing Pre-VGU Swain to his most recent mini-rework
Just give us our toggle ult back.
this new swain kinds horrible , u have no carry potential at all , cause ur damage like shit ,
@@delusionofillusion473 it works in high elo mid. Over 50% wr atm.
@@sammigs34 i played swain before the rework annd i could easily carry once i gt my liandri and zhonya , just ult , dodge cc and damage with shonya , then by that time my ult damag would be charged up , then one shot with that burst damage and my q , now u do no damage at all , keep in mind healing is a worthless factoe compared to damage , as for 800 god u redue the healing by 40 % , and swains heal is not even that high , unless u trigger passive which cant haooen that often , so u get oudamaged with ur ult on , unlike before , pus u can just be cced and kited for 5 sec and ur ult usless really dum changes , no onder he needed a hotfix buff , i hope they buff his damage , or make him more of a drain tank , caise roght now he is in between and does neither role any good
@@delusionofillusion473 I agree but atm in high elo only he's above 50% wr in mid. Personally I want him back top. Just give us our toggle back.
I do think its genuinely questionable how some people think Baus is getting carried by his champion, though. Stuff like "Baus wouldn't be his rank if it wasn't for Inting Sion" grinds my gears.
He's a great gragas player as well and has some other champs he plays at a high lvl in challenger elo so ppl who say this are factually wrong lol.
@@TheBest-gf8qo we can't forget about his Quinn too.
that would also mean that every silver player could easily climb with it, which isnt the case
I mean he is carried, but everyone is carried. It just really fits his playstyle, just like other champs fit other player's playstyle.
@@happycamperds9917 i think that is just a bad definition. If you ask me, getting carried means that you get to a rank higher than what you should because your champion is over powered. If you can utilize it well enough as a player, you aren't carried because you are good enough for this rank. Thats how I see it at least
The release times for Vars’ vids are acc so convenient for me- just as I finish off the last of my errands and studies for the day, I get that sweet sweet notification, where the clip lasts exactly the amount of time I need to walk home. Perfect
It does need a certain level of macro knowledge and skill to pull off correctly. Also, from personal experience, I haven't seen many uses of this strategy (EUW bronze). As a niche play style, I enjoy seeing it, as long as it stays a niche play style.
Is it toxic? Maybe, but what part of LoL isn’t?
I think the biggest problem is how unfair and unfun it feels to play against. If he’s on your team and doesn’t play it correctly it’s nothing different than a feeder on another champ. When you play against that abomination though, even if he feeds, he will permanently split and punishing him is literally impossible. He will get turrets eventually and that at an alarming pace in the mid-late-game.
Thing is, everyone believes that this strategy is hard, but at the same time, even high elo players have trouble dealing with it most of the times, because you leave him alone on top for a few seconds and he takes a whole turret or two. Not to mention most of the times you won't even be able to deal with him alone, as thanks to hullbreaker and his W passive, he is both tanky and deals damage, which is disgusting. I play in grandmaster and everytime Sion isn't banned and someone picks him, a dodge will happen, because people don't want to play against/with that shit
I am fine with it since riot puts dashes in every champ making sion's Q super hard to land vs newer champs these days
so, just like any other champion
This happened in ARAM and completely changed my perspective on objective design. Enemy Sion built hullbreaker, I noticed it and pinged it. Entire team laughed and started question marking, cause it's ARAM. Hullbreaker? Seriously?
Yeah well we ate our words, once the game got going good his team just sat back, and he would fly at our turret and just die and beat it up. Like no counterplay. Astounded at the efficiency, we just... lost. I felt like a fool for pinging his item and making fun of it. Dumbest thing ever.
And yeah, I get it was an ARAM, but point remains. In fact, the fact it worked in that setting might even be more proof to how absolutely stupid the strat is.
Sounds like your team failed to win a 4v5 edit: Or it was just a team comp diff
hasn't hullbreaker been disabled in aram for several months now?
@@arturc.6504 no
@@arturc.6504 Not sure what or when you may be referring to but no. At least as recent as about 3 or 4 weeks ago, when this match happened. I can't speak for the past week or so, but I can for sure tell you that it wasn't disabled before then.
more than sion the problem here is hullbreaker, if you are alone you get 3x gold value is way too much for one item
Personally speaking i've always been ok with inting sion before the buffs to hullbreaker,after the buffs its just incredibly annoying for me as the guy that mostly play champs on the tankier side since fighting a sion usually means at a certain point i will just not be able to kill him before he kills tower and even if i win lane stuff like your jnglr and adc chasing after the 1/14 sion for literally 2 minutes when the guy had ghost and ulted away from them to boot,which loses us every objective possible,so personally i do not blame the strategy itself i just blame the item for making it way too easy for sion to get away with the strat
u need to learrn how to zone of ur opponent , if u win lane , it is ok to loss cs ifit means he dosent get exp also ,
@@delusionofillusion473 i mean yeah that's why i have always been fine with inting sion before,it's just the damn item making him extremely annoying to deal with and it just makes it feel less gratifying to win lane against him cuz it most likely won't matter 70% of the times
As someone who recently picked up this sion strategy. I can actually say its unfair yet fair at the same time
At the start it actually boosted my cs/min (increased from 7 to 9-10 cs/min) and I learned more on how to move around the map. That concepts actually is fair since you just punish the enemy for not knowing better
The unfair part is the selfishness and pressure of that strat for both sides.
The hardest part tbh in my experience is to determine which win condition should I pursue (teamfight or split) since when you choose either one you will lose greater benefits (eg. going for split makes you lose baron/drag control, going for teamfight makes you lose cs/min). Also the game at some point makes me feel like it isn't on my control anymore but on my jungler/adc's knowldege since in some games players don't know what objective to take as 4 which ends to throwing, by me overextending with nothing in return (example is one game wherein they needed camille and yone to handle me and my team still didn't setup baron as they first want to find a pick before starting it)
I also infer that sion strat is also helpful towards the game specially in low elo inorder to master the map rather than the champ. Since uptil now I see many people who are good at playing their main champs but are absoulutely trash in playing around the map (like extending their lead) which causes them to be hardstuck in that elo
Inting Sion reminds me of many seasons back when Nasus's pick rate suddenly jumped and he went from being niche and rare to a pick-or-ban champ very quickly, and league players were getting smashed by him until the community started to understand how to deal with him. He slowly became more balanced without number adjustments just because people started to understand how to play against him. Maybe some minor nerfs to Sion would help, but ultimately the community will adjust to dealing with him naturally and it won't be as oppressive.
yeah,alot of people have been saying playing against it is "Unplayable" or "no counterplay" but honestly if you're ahead and beat him in a 1v1 you'd just snowball on him with champs like darius,fiora,etc
and then people say "but he's just gonna keep splitpushing top"
then so should you if you're ahead,and if he farms up and gets ahead of you, isn't that your mistake? you should farm just as much as him.
alot of things come into play here when thinking about the strategy,I don't like complaints like him oneshotting towers or killing people in his passive,cause most "meta" toplaners (mostly bruisers and etc) can do the same if not more than him if they were as ahead as an inting sion in farm at 10cs per min.
the fact that the champion has to die to be useful is saying something.
if a tryndamere/jax/fiora 1v5s in a splitpush and takes a tower or two no one bats an eye.
but when a sion does it!
SOCIETY! Society calls it broken.😔
@@lorilorilorienth you ignored the fact that he can usually kill most meta tops in his passive if he is ad, or tank he can just become unkillable and win the game. He isn’t impossible to win against but it feels like hardly anyone can match his pressure. Sure you get kills and fed off int sion but his pressure is relentless.
I personally feel like all dedicated split pushing win conditions are obnoxious and don't deserve to exist. I despise hullbreaker as an item with everything in me.
I'm fine with split pushing as a strategy to temporarily draw pressure and leave opportunities to look for picks and take advantage of that, in fact, I love that. It's great, fun, interactive. I think it as a WIN CONDITION is toxic and not great for the game overall, especially items designed around making what should be a pick opportunity generating strategy a win condition.
I thinks it's a good thing overall to have other win condition like splitpusher but sion wasnt meant to such a big splitpusher when he was created (rework) i think someone like Yorick with spell that are overall good and helpfull for split is fine and there should be some the problem lies with The INTING part of sion split push...
I think straight up inting sion, where you just die over and over again for turret damage to chip away at the enenmy structures is very toxic. But what baus is doing, where he dies to obtain a net gain in gold isn't toxic, but should be looked at.
Baus just uses the proxy singed tactics, which were awful to play against when they were meta on singed, except he does it on most champs he plays like cho
@@LlibertarianGalt proxy singed is the most aids thing i have ever experienced. Shits so annoying but theres nothing you can do about it most of the time.
@@Rabid_Ferret Yeah when it was meta, it made me quit and uninstall several times.
It was the antithesis of fun.
My 2 cents. It’s literally just another way of playing it. If you play it right, you might win, if you play it wrong, you’re bound to lose. With regards to your team or the enemy team, it doesn’t make much of a difference compared to any other strategy.
“Oh but the enemy sion is just destroying our towers and we can’t defend”. Could you defend if there was a Fiora that’s playing equally as good as the Sion that’s wrecking you? It’s probably going to be the same result.
And for your teammates, would it make any difference if instead of playing a bad inting Sion you were just playing a bad aatrox? Most likely nope.
In the end, it’s just another strategy, you can still play a “regular” Sion and that’s part of being good at him: knowing what strategy might work best and guess what, that’s how every single champion is played.
If Riot thinks that being able to wreck towers while dead shouldn’t be that punishing for the enemy team, even as a Sion otp I can agree. Once you don’t care if you die or not (because you’re already dead), you can’t be punished in any way while you are able to punish the enemy team, so maybe this change forces people to think a bit more when they should die and when not to do it.
Oh and forgot to mention, great vid Vars, as always :)
if it was a fiora instead of a sion, she might kill everyone who sent after her :)). also the he's split pushing and we cant do anything about it, like how about you force a 5 vs 4? or threaten and objective as a team.
One thing you do need to consirder is a bad sion is worse than a bad aatrox. A bad aatrox would die 2ish times, then realize, "Oh, I can't beat this champion without help. I should play passive now" and deaths should stall out. Inting Sion is different, you litterally die so you can damage turrets more. So you are giving gold away no matter what. And if they time it wrong, they give essentially free gold away. Getting someone really fed. Tho if its a bad yas or yone, then it doesn't matter. We all know they like dieing 10 times in 20 minutes
Thing is, a sion breaks the turret and then dies, a fiora kills everyone and then breaks 2 turrets, if not 3 turrets and the inhibitor
fiora argument is horrible considering fiora cant proc demolish after she is dead, and fiora doesnt get to rack up 4k hp while building enough ad to literally 2 shot towers with r and demolish. ur just a biased sion player. The strat is completely absurd.
@@Ghosta085 nah, Fiora doesn’t proc demolish because she already destroys towers by herself. She has her own playstyle and trying to apply the inting Sion strat to her as a way to disprove me is idiotic. A fed Fiora could very well just kill all the people you sent to defend her and end up in an even worse position than with Sion. Or she could just group with her team and open a new hole on your ass with the rest of her team.
The thing is, you’re missing the point of my Fiora example. I’m not saying “Oh but you see, a Fiora would be worse”. I’m saying that any champion that has the ability to be oppressive will be oppressive if played correctly and if it has an advantage. It won’t matter if it’s an inting Sion that has played well and is actually ahead in gold or if it’s a fed Fiora, Aatrox or a stacked Nasus. They can’t destroy towers while dead? Sure, but they can just kill you and then keep pushing, the playstyle may be different, but the end result not so much.
Tl;dr: more strategy is good, but there needs to be more than 1 counter strategies available. Players should be rewarded for recognizing and countering a strategy.
My opinion about Sion "tower-breaker" strategy is its a nice variation into the strategy of the game. The problem is lack of punishment for dying, like, if hull-breaker has a draw back if the holder dies. Like, yes, the strategy only works IF you know how to play, but if you do know how to play, then it's pretty hard to counter it. For example, if someone starts the strategy, and the other team recognizes it, they should be able to implement a way to defend against it. As it stands now, the strategy provided a bit too much pressure since, if the jungler needs to get dragon or the top laner needs to to for a team fight, sion can break down a bunch of towers, die, and be ok with that. With how hulk-breaker works, he doesn't need to focus on killing the players that are attacking him, just work on towers. Now, something I think would be cool, is if riot made the item hull-breaker have an extra function that embraced its raid boss nature allowing the team to benefit for taking down someone with it while also giving the holder extra (ontop of what is already there) stats. Like, for ever tower broken by the holder, their death is worth X more gold.
if knowing how to play it means more reward then knowing how to play against it then why isn't baus rank 1 in both EU and KR? yea cause you as a toplaner/jungler can literally get thousands of gold and lot of XP for free to carry the game with. Baus:" if i give you 2000 gold for free just so i can play the game and you cant carry you're dogshit at the game".
As a Sion main I find the passive very underwhelming in the "normal" gameplay. This strategy gives you atleast something to do with it.
However I dont enjoy it myself.
I would say let Sion be. It makes thematic sense and it makes game wise. He is a zombie of a legendary warrior. He is also has a mechanic unique to him. Plus this allows top lane to be important, not only late game. Because many times too lane is over looked.
We don't remove Master Yi or Kayle or Kassadin or Vayne or any other champ that hits a major power spike after being useless all game. I know it isn't a perfect example, but it shows the point. You never have control over any of your teammate's champs or your opponents so why should a playstyle be removed just because some people don't want to learn macro.
You will always get inters and trolls, on any champion. that does not mean we alter the game. And to be clear I don't like Inting Sion, but the playstyle of semi tank semi ad Sion that CAN use his passive to his benefit is not that. The ability to win through smart macro decisions can seem "cheesy" simply because when you lose by getting backdoor you often do not want to look at your own fault in arriving to the scenario to which you lost to.
I do not believe every champion need to be made so that they need to win through team fights or utter lane domination, we have enough of those and let's be honest.... I would rather have games that are decided by smart macro decisions rather than my opponent choosing Yone and just slaughters everyone after a 1-2 item power spike. At least there is depth to Sion's split pushing more so than champions like Tryndamere and more depth than a 1v9 Yi because you didn't pick enough champs with hard crowd control
That's like saying hurting yourself as soraka to gain value some other way is inting. It's just a resource you spend, same for trading. for Sion death is a resource they spend.
This. People don’t realize that league is a game of exchange, and that skill expression is just making the right decisions that give you the most value. If you lose against an inting sion with any of the meta top laners, then you just had worse decisions that game.
Personally, I may have played the game for a long time and I'm not particularly good at the game, more of the casual level to be exact, I feel the "inting Sion" strategy is a bit unfair. It may not be as unfair as Chemdrake buff from a long time ago that was removed but once the strategy gets rolling, it is very difficult to stop it.
At least with someone like a Yorick, there is a way to stop him from snowballing out of control, but when you barely manage to win a teamfight and that enemy Sion charges into the tower, often it would require more than 2 people to actively stop him from destroying any more by the time we get there.
Given that his Ultimate has a low CD, its difficult to put him down, without dumping a lot of CC beforehand or recall back in time to make it back to the base. It feels like we'd be stuck in a perpetual soft-lock, wipe out the 4 enemy players? better watch out for the Sion using the Ultimate to charge into the nexus. By the time you killed him, you've probably wasted a whole minute and that alone is enough to allow his team to respawn.
Overall, I don't like the strategy with the current Sion we have now, if there was a way to nerf him without crippling him, I'd like that.
While I agree with the notion that in itself this is not an illegal move and in fact a niché of "turning deaths into lead", I believe in general as the game is right now, the possibility of being able to turn deaths into lead is an unhealthy element for the game.
I can't wait until one day riot sets up a tutorial for anything involving macro like wave management, that would be really cool tbh
Getting this video in my recommended after the news of Baus being banned is both fitting and unfitting.
I am of the opinion that we should be open to unique strategies instead of shunning people for not following the meta. However, the problem is when I see inting Sions in my ranked games who have no idea how it actually works and are just doing it cause they saw Baus doing it.
Hey, you gotta fail before you improve.
and now riots nerfing it just because babus played well in kr
@@HamsterPants522 You are correct. But I would prefer they try it in norms first. Inting Sion works because Baus constantly draws pressure while getting 10 cspm and not being worth much gold for the amount of people that come to kill him. But most people don't understand that and just pick AD Sion because of Baus, not because of strategical thinking.
Unique strategies are one thing. Strategies that are antithetical to the game philosophy though, are another. Dying in League should, inherently by the game's design and philosophy, be a negative. It gives the enemy team gold and takes you off of the map for a prolonged period of time, cutting your agency to zero. The game becomes a 4v5 momentarily. It's why late game deaths with long timers are so bad. Dying is not good.
Being rewarded for dying is completely opposed to this main game idea. That's when a strategy is toxic. Off meta strats are no problem as long as they follow the game's core fundamental aspects. The problem with a strategy like this isn't that it's not meta. The problem is that it's not _League_ . The game is not balanced to, or set up to, reward for deaths.
@@PsQueak2 I think that is the biggest misunderstanding of inting Sion. You aren’t being rewarded for dying. And this is why almost no other person is having success with this strategy. Baus understands League fundamentally and how map pressure and gold income works to the extreme. Optimally, you should try to die as few times as possible. The reason the strat works is because you acquire more gold than your opponent while also taking away pressure from other lanes so they can more easily acquire objectives. This strategy would work even if you died 0 times. And it also works on other champions too. If you do die at a good time, it is a calculated sacrifice wherein you gain more than you lose.
The toxic aspect is Sion himself, not Baus’s strategy. His dead passive is more powerful than his living character. So it is League of Legends themselves who created what you call antithetical to the game. This is also the same with Karthus.
Also, the strategy is countered by simply out-csing the Sion and out-pressuring his team. This is why Baus struggled to get out of Grandmaster. The Challenger players in Korea figured this out pretty quickly. So if you have equal gold to Sion, which involves not chasing him around as much and catching your own waves, then you simply beat him.
I rather have to face a 0/11 Sion running at my turret than the Fiora that no matter how many times I ganked still gets a triple kill with that stupid ultimate of hers.
Really. Just tonight we tried to stop 0/3 Fiora from taking tier 1 top and she solo killed me (Viego), my mid (Swain) and my ADC (Kai'sa). Like we spent all our CDs and she killed us UNDER OUR OWN TURRET and lived. Parry and R. That's it.
Seeing that, I wonder what's more toxic: inting Sion or half of toplane roaster.
I feel like this is more an indictment on Hullbreaker than Sion or Sion's playstyle. I've dealt with Int Darius, Int Jax, Int Rek'Sai. Hullbreaker allows you to be 4 levels behind but still be allowed to win a lead.
That just bruiser in general, not hullbreaker allow them to but bc bruiser can do that, pretty sure jux can do the same thing by buying botrk and darius can do the same thing with gore into death dance.
I Think It is toxic since the argument that the runes, items and champ that makes this playstyle gives the player agency is true. It takes the agency away from the 5 enemies that is against the playstyle. what do you do against a splitpusher or lategame scaler? Shut him down early, but if that option is legit useless since he still gets insane value out of dying then what options are you even left with?
I feel that rogue or alternative strategies should be in a place in which they are decided on to be used after all champions have been locked in, something tactical that can be used. If people queue up expecting to play such a strategy it becomes toxic as its not a tactical choice to counter what is happening anymore. for example split pushing can be used as a tactic if you don't have a great teamfight comp but queueing up and expecting to just splitpush even before any champ has been chosen makes the strategy toxic. It is too mainstream viable to be a counter
This is completely wrong. The entire process of climbing in solo q is developing a framework that is replicable. You need to be able to follow your strategy consistently each game, with some level of flexibility depending on the game. There is only so much variability that is possible, based on your champion. If you expect your Nasus to play roaming to the early game or your Yorick to constantly group mid, you don't understand how the champions work. The reason for inting sion being toxic is that is rewards bad gameplay, i.e. feeding your opponent.
So, if your teams say so you just don't get to play the champions or playstyles you want? I play games to win and be a team player, but if I want to play Kayle and just scale to late game I don't care if my teammates disagree, I should get to play how I want as long as I am trying to win.
@@PedroAce The key word is in "alternative" strategies. strategies that go against the norm such as dying repeatedly or stacking bounties so your one carry can collect them all. These kind of strategies that break the norm. Picking for late game or early game does not fall under this.
So I play trynd/GP top and sion is permaban because he (for my champs) is permanently unkillable and I have to be the one to respond to him which means I can’t do what I want to do aka splitpush or get picks/team fight, I feel sion is unhealthy as well because if you don’t have someone on your team who does dmg to tanks you lose, he’s one of the few champs that will make you actually lose in champ select
This champion is more than unhealthy, I played against him just today as Darius where I killed him with R, Killed his passive he TP'ed back in, I did it again and killed his passive with R and he then ulted back into lane. It is impossible to get tempo or a favorable back timing against this pick, I killed him 4 times in 45 seconds and it wasn't enough to stop him from farming or even expose a tower plate so I could reap the rewards of killing him, because his death timer starts the second he dies which can mean he has no downtime on the map early game.
Making his death timer actually start on his death would do so much to fuck his unpunishable early game
Yes you speak as if it's hard to kill sion early but Without that Sion would be litterally shit since his spells do shit damage early and everyone with dash/stun fucks him up compleetely Riot should probably rework or at least fix some parts of his kit
@@lucabiagianti3224 reworking his kit is the only answer, changing some of it is not enough - he needs a new identity as a juggernaught that isn't kept alive after death.
@@lucabiagianti3224 my point is I am playing one of the best early game champions in the game that is risky and susceptible to crowd control and only really has damage to offer and even on that champion played to near perfection there is no window I can exploit in killing him that will give me tempo advantage so I can get some tower damage in or deny him CS.
@@Spartantag676 yes you can't deny cs but you still get a ton of gold in the process Sion in that case no matter what won't be able to do nothing, and there is no "perfect" game in an unplayable matchup between Sion and Darius the real problem I think is the absurd damage to towers, in fact the only way Sion can win is by breaking plates and gaining gold by nerfing the passive damage Sion will get hit pretty hard,
I am Gold and I don't have a clear view of the game but the only things making this old champion work are the passive and tricks that weren't predicted to work as they are being used right now
For some reason, yasuo/yone, immediately after minor item nefs- get the buff back, and this does not bother anyone. There is a shaco who has NO clear strategy to outplay him against, and no amount of wards will really help here, given his abilities. This champion is able to annoy all lanes, but he is also not nerfed. But as soon as one noticeable to the whole world Sion appeared, they immediately try to lower it below the plinth by global nerfs. Mm, "love" the league
I would actually be more curious to see people come up with a way to try counter this. People should be rewarded in finding a new strategy and Rito needs to stop forcing champions into the image they want them to be.
I think the biggest problem is people who play this only see the strat as "Sion die = good" when Baus is on a whole nother level. He knows so much about the game he can do this strategy without actually giving the opponent that much of a lead. He can use the pressure of hull breaker Sion and his wave management to actually impact the game.
When most everyone else tries this, they don't actually know how complex the strat is, think dying is good and all they do is let the enemy top lane go 8/0 with 190 CS at 15 minutes who then just wins the game by themselves while the sion player thinks he's good because he got 1 tower
I have always appreciated weird unconventional champs I love singed and malzahar and I really hated that zrodportal was taken away
hullbreaker gave Sion a chance to be unconventional in an effective way soo even though I admit that it can be a horrible pain in the ass to face in lane I appreciate the fact that it exists in league not everything needs to revolve around an edgy 1v9 hipermovile slayer killing everything in sight sometimes you just want to play something weird or dumb
The thing with inting sion is he isnt really feeding. The amount he gets out of it mid and top is so much compared to what he loses, so much so that in certain matchups he will int and still be than any of the other most of your team. I love playing sion but this shit is so toxic lmfao
If you make a character that gets stronger by DYING, then don't complain when players come up with suicide attack tactics
If riot wants sion to not be played like this, then ACTUALLY make sions kit not so punishing to play. Everything is telegraphed and dodgeable and his damage is fine IF you are able to land it. His kit is just too outdated in a meta of everyone having mobility and movement speed steroids.
So I know this one person who always says to other people how he got "unfairly permabanned". This guy loves playing this kind of picks, another one that he uses is going double ADC botlane whenever he gets autofilled to support because, hear this, "more carries, more chances to win". This guy is seriously insane. He always throw tantrums whenever he doesn't get his way, always complaining about his enemy laner because "they are so broken". This guy also loves to boast that if he gets "serious" he would be plat in no time, and that he's "too busy" to play ranked. Mind you, this guy is silver and averages 10-12 deaths per game, even as the team carry. I would loved to shit talk this guy all day if he weren't an acquaintance of a friend. I was relieved when he said that he was going to quit league after he got permabanned, but I still sometimes still see him play. He has since toned down but is still occasionally seen raging like a bull.
I hate this because people is convinced there is no wrong way to play inting Sion. No dude, you diying to Darius 3 times in a row before 5 min into the game is not how you are supposed to play it....
In a game where champions like camille deal more true damage on a Q than chogath does with his ult, I think it is pretty safe to say that Riot clearly doesn't focus on the interaction of a champion with the others but rather on 1v1 scenarios or on the champion itself without puttin much thought into it. Otherwise, I can't explain how new champions almost ALWAYS need to get nerfed or even (soft) REWORKED in the first couple of days.
While it may not seem healthy for the game, as you said, the Sion player doesn't break any rules. He uses the kit that he's got and makes the most out of it. Saying that he should be banned is the same as saying Yone players should be banned because their champion can go 1/10 and can 1v2 with a shieldbow.
i cant count how many times i sneaked an inhib then did the baus special and ended the while the enemie team was fighting over the drake its even better when its a soul and even if they come top if i already did the baus special its too late for them as they have to take down a 4k hp sion whit a ton of armor chipping theyre base whit hull braker and even if they kill you ur passive hits faster and stroger then ulti and ven if u end up dying u can just tp back to a ward and end even whit out minions so its toxic if u dont know how to take car of it i had 0/20 kda in alot games but the price to pay if u want to win
Toxic. The game is meant to be about dying being punishing, the fact it's entirely negated not only by Sions inting playstyle, but with the implementation of champions like Akshan, it makes me wonder why they removed the 'revive' summoner spell in the first place other than to make it a passive gimmick.
I love the vocabulary you use when making these videos
It's a bit strange to me how people react so strongly about this sion strat being "unfun" for everyone else in the game. LoL is a game literally built on that premise, just look at things like kha'zix, yasuo, katarina, vayne, teemo, elise etc. The main point of these champions existing is to make certain kinds of champions on the enemy team not have fun.
imo the reason people react so strongly specifically to inting sion and his most reliable counterplay (gain a gold lead from killing him and snowball over the rest of the map with that gold lead). is because a good part of this is in the hands of the jungler and because it's the same counterplay option availible vs a Yuumi. You essentially have to play a perfect game vs it and in unorganized play that's just rarely going to happen, which makes it feel frustrating to face. A bit of a similar premise to Master Yi i guess.
as OP mentioned, perpetual inting sion also makes the game unfun for teammates, who may need to deal with a fed jungler.
For the first bruiser abusers feel like a mage vs an assasin, and have to use their brain 😎
The issue with inting sion is that 9 other people have to pick and play around that one pick. The enemy team has to assume that his team is going to play around him, and pick champions that can not only deal with the rest of his team, but can effectively stop him with cc and true damage. His team has to assume the sion knows what he's doing, or be prepared if he doesn't. They have to be ready to fight a 4v5. It's not fun because it forces other people to play a certain way.
This seems like wobbling form brawl sure it's really hard to do but once you can do its no fun for any one else
I literally lost a game where my team was losing for 80% of the game but because our top laner got stomped and no one but the fed Ashe ADC (myself) could handle him. We were starting to make a comeback but we just lost a battle of attrition because of him repeatedly ‘inting’ down top lane to kill turrets and finally our nexus with nearly nothing I could do to stop him. Even with Bork/Guinsoo/Kraken/Lord Dom’s it took about ten long seconds to kill him. It’s really, really annoying to just lose a game like that
Well at least he didnt one shot your entire team as some champions do
2:02 *True* You don't miss out on anything from not playing except toxic matches and 20 mins of waiting for the game to end.
Everyone's just waiting for *URF*
Toxic 100%. If you look at the strat it is actually just overpowered. At a certain point the passive becomes so powerful it’ll take a tower before two people can kill you. It’s extreme pressure that nobody else can exert without another champ at their side.
Nice background music, Beautiful Death is a bliss to listen to.
I kind of disagree with the notion that split pushing is inherently a non team focused strat. Split pushing does focus more on the solo independence of a champ and them pushing that lead to such an astronomical extent that they draw massive attention even if they aren't or are doing something on the map. A real life analogy is sports, whether it's basketball, American football, soccer, etc the opponent is trying to win by preventing the ball from going into a goal and while that happens the offense is trying their best to get that ball into the goal. The same way in league both sides play offense and defense at certain moments to claim their tempo and control over the game i.e an imaginary ball just how if you're the player with the ball in your hands you hold all the power in the moment of the game. Now when the offense is trying to get the ball to the wanted area they employ fakes, jukes, side cuts, etc to open up options for the ball handler to possibly use and open up the defense by pull them and stretching on them to see cracks or openings to win. The same way a split pusher crashes into towers while an objective is up and how it stretches and pulls the enemy team into deciding "do I stop the split pusher from gaining an advantage or claim an advantage myself from the objective" the same way a defender in basketball might be put in a pick and roll and now decide "do I guard the shooter from taking an easy shot or guard the cutter from taking an easy basketball" and that is something sports have been using for hundreds of years if not thousands. Even if games like chess there are deterrents or baits forcing the opponent to choose what the condition is to win. This is also how pros acknowledge split pushing or used to in seasons -7 when split pushing was more viable where if you win the lane top or mid now you have the control and power over your laner which means if you decide to go and split now your laner has to deal with you or ask the other people on his team to deal with your in a 1v1 1v2 1v3 etc which opens up win conditions for your team like dragon or a favorable team fight or baron or towers on the other side of the map. Which is why I agree with vers saying that players especially low ELO players need to learn the macro of the game and not just pick Yone, yas, Irelia, kat etc and try to put mechanic your enemy into submission.
yas does it too but he dosent even push ,
antways , i love inting sion , i play darius top mostly , and forme that is a free lane that i can bully out of existence , get super fed and snowbll teamfights, just zone him away from te wawe and his passive wont help him scale , and of he misteps or some xp , just kill him , there is no way a sion can kill a darius with his passive , if u killed him with ult , just auto him and oone shot the zombie with ult , if u dont have ult , just e him or w him and walk awy with q
Hey guys, I had an idea today : imagine a new item that does the opposite of hull breaker? Like giving u resistances and damage on structures only when you're surrounded by your allies (2 champions minimum) ! That could maybe push people to team fight with their Toplaner?
Anathema
just have the supp grab it an we're good to go, there is literally no reason for a top laner to build this. and with a 2 champ min, would actually be better bot lane where there is, get this, 2 champs
@Jksm Mkv well it's a been while since tanks were relevant due to the damage creep in the game. And it people actually grouping to take an objective is healthier than one champion being unstoppable because he built a specific item at least in my opinion
@@volcanicviper5984 well the item is a fighting item (with AD, health, regen, resistances) made for toplaners. Despite some of them being tanky he's not supposed to be a walking powerhouse Frontline. Plus they need other items to actually support the whole team. And when I said 2 champions minimum I meant that you would need 2 extra people with you for the hullbreaker passive to activate (so basically at least 3)
Aura items like Zeke's Herald were way too hard to balance. This would almost certainly be either too good or entirely useless.
i going to be 100% on with you, this sounds like its a toxic strategy that abuses how league is built via kills and shutdown money. and anyone that defend this ranges form reasonable to huffing glue kinda dumb.
"its not a exploit or a bug" is a horrible argument to a question of unintended playstyle.
I like alternative win conditions and I'm all for top laners having more agency especially because I myself play top but I don't think inting Sion's is a good way to go about it.
It's more volatile in a team environment than most other outlandish strategies and when perfected it is pretty much guaranteed value no matter how the enemy plays around it. Killing a splitpusher should matter. Sion can diminish and eventually downright negate that weakness as he scales which leads to a very non-interactive experience in the long term as he just ends up ignoring core aspects of the game in ways no other champion can and other champions are not remotely equipped to deal with something that is so out there. Inting Sion is essentially playing a different game than everyone else. At least with someone like Singed you can straight up stop him in his tracks, kill him and he's left with nothing but the few minions he managed to proxy before he died. Inting Sion is pretty much Singed combined with Yorick's tower pushing but stripped off most of the weaknesses and consequences of both. If people wanna play that sort of playstyle they should either be playing Singed for proxy scaling playstyle or Yorick for the tower splitpushing playstyle. Inting Sion existing straight up spits on both of their niche by doing both of their jobs better simultaneously by himself while being even more disruptive for a team environment and lacking clear consistent ways to play around and against him in a soloq environment, far more than the average oddball playstyle.
"He can be 0/20 but be Just as dangerous as a Nasus with 1k stacks. Except Nasus doesnt have the Luxury to fall behind."
Are you talking about: Yasuo, Yone, Jax, Fiora, Irelia, Riven, Darius-
I think it’s bad for the game. It’s unfun for both sides. The enemy team have to deal with obnoxiously efficient macro that has little counter play and the friendly team has to deal with a 5v4 the whole game against a fed top and/or jungler.
realistically, top and jungle aren't gonna be that fed comparatively. At some point, Sion's gonna be worth less gold for dying so much, and Sion's team is gonna have all the opportunities in the world to get dragons, get bot lane ahead, and take actually impactful objectives
the counter is just good macro play though. It's not Baus' fault most soloqueue players lose their minds when faced with complicated macro play...
doesn't matter if you need skill to pull off or not, it's degenerate enough that it shouldn't be in the game, blind insistence shouldn't be rewarded, every other splitpusher needs to at least survive until taking tower, sion on the other hand can just get near enough it and the natural tankyness + broken gold efficiency will take care of it
Even though it is remarkable how this playstyle changes ones understanding of the game I still think it is unhealthy. Unless you counter him Sion doesnt fall behind. Not in a way that tanks have cc no matter how behind they are, he literally doesnt lose gold and xp like other champions do when they die. If he dies, he still gets the wave and can pressure you enough that you cant get plates unless any form of roam or gank at that time is ruled out. His passive in concept does a great job at causing a disruption in a teamfight, which is his job as a tank. But how it curerntly works it can be abused too easily. He gets kills, towerdamage and minions while others cant and thus doesnt fall behind. If his passive would scale with level or gametime he couldnt int through the entire laningphase while losing almost nothing and scaling safely.
Another proposed solution: make it so that Sion can't auto when dead, and instead gets the following abilities while his passive is in effect.
Q - Punch an enemy champ. (Short cooldown, like a melee-range Zeri Q. Only targets enemy champs, but otherwise functions exactly like an auto.)
W - Run faster for a while. (Like his current passive ability.)
E - Slow enemies around you briefly.
This would keep the use of his passive as a teamfight-disrupting tank, or a champ that can revenge kill you like Karthus or Kog'Maw (so Lethality Sions get their kicks too) while making it impossible for him to use it as a pushing tool.
quitting league was one of the best decisions ive made but seeing your videos pop up still brings a smile to my face
Even before launching the video
This is the most toxic strat ever
Rewarding a player for intentualy feeding and giving an objective to a player who failed in the skill, mechanic, and fighting of the game only to just ult the turrets die and kill them until none are left is like giving yone the ability to criticaly strike tureets and heals off them in the same time affecting them with 4 times E true damge
FOR JUST PICKING THE CHAMP YOU SHOULD NOT WIN REGARDLES OF PERFORMANCE
THIS IS THE OPOSITE OF WHAT LEAGUE STANDS FOR
So U think babus has no skill?
Sion’s skill expression comes in the form of wave and objective management. A good Sion will make the game unplayable for the enemy team despite having a bad kda due to really high cs and tower damage, and a bad Sion will have a bad kda, be losing in cs, and be outdamaged on turrets. Although the metrics of skill are different than most champs, there is still skill to be expressed.
I don't think lethality Sion Is unfair,but tank Sion? Definitely. Lethality Sion has to hit ult or q or use the passive effectively to get kills or ahead plus he's squishy compared to the tank one,meanwhile a Sunfire,Titanic Sion with a fully stacked passive can melt you by just standing there even with 18 deaths.
In all honesty: I hope, that the Hullbreaker rush into uninteractive gameplay comes to proplay and ruins the MSI... because then Riot will do something about it, just like they did with Jungle Funnel or roaming smite top.
Here is my problem: I once had a 1-5 Mundo become an unstoppable split push force, even for my 5-1 ADC, once he finished that item... I actually stopped playing ranked, as I realized, that the team, that builds Hullbreaker, just wins and me playing well as a Support and getting my ADC ahead had no impact on winning... at least in my Gold Elo. If all you can do is pray, that your Toplaner realized this, the item is bad...
And I have no problem with split push as an optional win condition. With someone realizing: This is the best thing, I can do right now... I have a problem, when someone decides to 100% commit to this strat with his first buy.
Now it has been a couple of patches since, so maybe it got fixed...
As a toplaner myself i respect Inting Sion around 80% and loathe it around 20%
No, i do not play Sion Yes, it's not easy to play, but a lot of toxic mechanics are involved in the strategy that makes it often extremely hard to punish without really much though going into it.
I'll be honest, im around P2-P3 toplane player on EUW, and it doesn't take a genius to get 9+ cs per minute on Sion, since even if you die you still get CS. It doesn't take a genius to choose a sidelane where you think there's no action in the near future, ult from fog, crash into a tower and kill it. Yes, the strategy is hard to pull off perfectly, but a lot of the times you can do a bunch of mistakes and it will still work.
Sion's R damage to towers is just way too much, Sion gets too many base stats (so, between autos and Demolish, AD or tank you still do way way too much damage to structures), Q W E have way too much instant waveclear, R is too effective of an escape tool, but the most outrageous thing is the passive.
Usually in league if you kill a champion you deny him resources, denying the enemy top 1-2 waves worth of gold and especially EXP is way more important than getting 300 G. But, assuming you actually KILL the Sion (because remember, he can recall TP pre6, Recall R to lane post 6 and then recall TP into Recall R back to lane again and again if you dont kill him) not only he will get all the farm while dead, but he's so strong in his passive (combined to the fact that he's dead, so he can full banana with no consequences) that he often zones you off the wave when you kill him. You killed the enemy champion and YOU get pushed in, you are forced to stay to clear this wave and the next and hopefully you can clear it fast enough to actually base. And to pour salt on the wounds Sions' death timer starts when he dies, so his death timer is ticking down during his passive. And he gets a lot of lifesteal in his passive, so if he's allowed to hit something (and he's allowed, if you get close he'll run you down) he lifesteals and gets to be around in zombie mode for even longer. And God forbit he's AD Sion with Phase Rush and Prowler, or you have to run a full screen away from his corpse to not get oneshot. Talk about getting the ultimate prio WHILE YOU ARE DEAD.
Sion players very likely play with less grayscreen than most players even tho they go 10+ death most games, how is that fair? What do i have to do to win the lane, Riot?!?
As a Camille player i found myself often killing the Sion only to have to run from the corpse, getting the wave pushed in, being forced to stay to push the next 2 (since Camille has ass for waveclear) and look, the Sion's back, he deletes the wave in 2 seconds while im recalling, and i'll find myself one level and three plates behind despite being 4 0. Such a meme xD
You know there's a problem when the people who main splitpush champions want Hullbreaker removed
Hullbreaker is fine, a little overtuned, but it needs to be to get purchased.
Hullbreaker is Vallina compare to the purple bug boy. I will trade it for the bug boy anytime in day
*Rito:* Not Nerfing Fiora, GP, Aatrox, Lulu, Camile, Riven, Qyiana and more
Also *Rito:* Nerf Sion bc he is becoming popular
And I think Sion is good bc it shows what is wrong with the game.
Sion champion with so little good match ups gets a Nerf when all above, and more, champions don't.
Rito is just dumb.
Very uninteractive to play against whenever I face it, stomping him in lane does nothing especially if I don’t scale into late game on some characters. I know what my answer it but I’m interested to see your take
Correct me if i am wrong but, the community is blaming the champion for a player issue?
Baus is playing inting sion but he is doing it in a tactical way that leads to him winning while the community is just inting on sion trying to imitate him and ofc failing at it in the most part right? So how is this the champion's fault, it is clearly ppl trying to do something that they cant do. If sion needs to be fixed or reworked i dont think it would be for this reason.
Even when it works its not healty for the game or your team mates. Yeah Sion can have fun for the game, but when rest of the team needs to deal with 6-0 Camille and 5-0 kha jungle its not very fun. I dont have problem with "new" strategies, but this is not healty for the game like perma roaming support top laners
If you're fighting a camile, you're not going to do anything regardless of your play style, camile shuts sion down so hard it's insane
@@lazinessincarnate9442 almost every meta pick at top shits on Sion early tbh
@@tunteisiin but for Camille, it's not just early, with DS and her 2nd Q she makes any scaling you have redundant, because she'll still kill you with 78% true damage anyways.
@@tunteisiin this is why the “inting” strat started gaining traction, because if you’re gonna get stomped early game, you may as well get as much out of it as you can to prepare for later stages. All they really need to do to discourage this playstyle would be to make him a bit more early game skewed rather than a hyperscaling late game monster.
@@kreeperkiller4423 well hes late game isint that strong when enemys have fullbuild tanks fall. I would say more that hes mid game is too strong cause hes items dont cost that mutch
Before watching the video: It promotes something that is normally seen as griefing [Inting], but Sion's entire design is about gaining value when he dies.
Tryndamere was the be-all end-all split push king before Hullbreaker [Fight me]. He got free crit, great escape, chunky heal, great chase, oppressive slow if you aren't facing him, and an ult that lets you just ignore stupid situations for kills. With 'Inting Sion', you're just playing to his kit's strong points.
The issue is that Riot has removed items like Ohmwrecker and Zz'rot from the game, limiting either strong items that can be used in conjunction with different win-cons or outright removing potential winc-cons [Both being respective to the listed items.] There should always be at least 2 win conditions in a video game, but Riot seems to have made it their goal to force players into the 'First to get an ace late game wins' type of win condition where you seemingly MUST fight 5v5 to win.
Hullbreaker was added because they destroyed Teleport early game and needed to do SOMETHING to try and prevent Top Laners from remaining the island that they are, while Inting Sion is just making value from your entire kit. I think it isn't healthy per-say, but it isn't outright griefing because you're playing will all the tools your champion has.
Any champ that can straight up ignore the negative effects of inting is toxic( yes I'm looking at you yasuo, yone, vayne)
Tryndamere!!!
riven requires you to know how to play riven, sion requires you to know how to play the game
When the first rule is “don’t die” and a character can laugh at this rule it’s already a rough topic. But here, people are just abusing the “second chance to do more damages” to just destroy objectives and, even if it has a strategy behind, doesn’t make it healthy for the game.
It’s literally like having a countdown to win the game until the Sion destroy his lane and proceeds to rush down the enemy nexus.
If we had the amount of players that are ruining the games of others for trying that strategy and failing, it’s not a healthy thing neither Sion win or lose. I understand that it’s the point of this champ to be able to revive and destroy things but here, it’s like a Tryndamere use the 5 seconds of his ult just to hit a tower. I mean, it’s useful in a way but it’s not gonna be fun for anyone.
For the team with Sion, they have a permanent void in their team fights because the Sion will 98% of the time be split pushing and for the enemy team, they have to constantly balance a thing that destroy turrets almost as fast as Yorick and can get back to lane with 2 ways, rundown a turret while dead and has an ult that deals damages to structures (Demolish scales on HP) and can easily 1v1 pretty much any champion with little escape thanks to Prawler’s claw. The fact that he can use items while dead may be a part of the problem, or the Hurlbreaker, or his ult doing damages to structures, or his W passive… Or all of those combined
I honestly don’t know how they can solve this issue but making his structures damages reduced by 50% doesn’t seem to be a viable solution
Removing Hullbreaker would go a long way. It's kind of dumb how they've balanced top lane - hullbreaker is OP and allows way too many champions to permasplit. It makes top lane feel strong, but not in a fun way. I play top lane to duel and raidboss, not to coinflip whoever gets hullbreaker first
Nerf hull, Nerf hes passive so respawn time starts when passive ends and mayb nerf demolition so that it wont scale with hp
loke you said the issue isn't sion he has been the same champ since i started playing back in 2017, i think riot cant think outside the box when it comes to letting every champ be able to pick every item. look at kat for example she used to be a ap burst assassin but now you go bork and divine sunderer and you do akali's job better then herself
@@scoutboy776 yeah, I forgot to mention that but I don’t have any problem with Sion. I understand that his split pushing strat is just his playstyle but my problem with inting Sion is how people are abusing Sion’s kit, items and runes. Sion is healthy but he is put in a game with stuff that, once mixed up, create that atrocious feeling of ticking bomb.
I don’t have a problem with the split pushing in general. As much as I hate it, I don’t consider it toxic in the slightest because it’s part of the game and it train players to look at the map more often (I look at you low Elo players >:( )
The problem with inting Sion is how impossible it is to defend against for the enemy team, the only way to win when the Sion is playing correctly is to have some hyper scaler like Kayle or Veigar. Druttut talked about how awful it feels to play against Baus and in the regard I think the strategy is toxic for the game
no WAY is this healthy. A game like League should never have the most oppressive strategy in the game involve intentional death. Just the fact that Sion needs a whole ass team to kill him is broken enough. Put his passive, ult, Hullbreaker, and teleport on top of all of that and you have a ridiculously unhealthy champ
Still healthier than Yone
True, he's getting nerfed but it's just his tower damage in his passive, which isn't useful anyways as inting sions just shove the wave as soon as they get killed.
Lol but Yone literally exists.
Healthier than Yone lol
Its definitely an interesting concept similar to how dying doesn't really matter on singed, I'm not sure how healthy characters like that are for the game but it is kind of hilarious to watch
Great video! Inting Sion has really been a hot topic lately
Inting Sion is alright in my opinion, but what I hate is when Sion ults away while screaming 'cowards'
This goes against his lore and is unfair to play against. He rocks up, takes a tower, takes half an hour to kill while killing two people with him and then ults away
I'd love to see riot nerf his ability to ult away
The high cooldown is nerf enough since it leaves him and his team without a strong engage
To me its just not fun to play against or with. Pisses me off when i see it cause like how is that fun . Smashing your face into towers, not interacting with ANYONE and just running down a lane just sucks. The win doesn't feel earned or rather just unfair. I don't play ranked and never will and i'm slowly losing interest in league again( i stopped acouple times in the past) but when i see this, even my friends would rather ff15 than spend 30mins dealing with that bs but we cant cause 4/5 is not enough for a team to surrender.
Hullbreaker is a bigger problem then sion in my opinion
The video was so good but the cherry on top was the wake up call.
Whoever developed hullbreaker needs to be fired.
Eh no? It was such a good Addition to make splitpush viable and just because Sion is a shit designed champ the item is not the problem
Vars made a video! It took maybe a hundred videos and 50 comments but Sion is officially on the roster!
Baus himself says he never thinks about the enemy's position on the map and he never tries to track the jg while easily hitting Challenger, ruining games for everyone in the lobby. The fact that even the legion of boosted Plats and below can replicate this strategy and find success is evident of how unhealthy this strategy is
Bro sion is just a worst tryndamere if u take sion away with his strat then u gotta take away tryndamere
tell me how many sion players made it to where babus is rn
He never said he didn't track enemy jg.
What I do know he did say was when he was watching a Skillcapped video, he said that he doesn't think of the complicated junglers clearing, camps and pathing.
If you watch his streams, he's aware of junglers positioning. Like any other challenger player
@@xenos_28 where tell me one player that has gotten too 50 challenger in euw tell me another sion player that uses this strat there but I can tell u 50 fiora and 50 tryndamere
@@xenos_28 Not everyone who plays League can wait 45 minutes for a match, unless it's their job
I'm of two minds. First, inting Sion puts both your own and the enemy team in a very difficult position where they must play around your wincon. To the point that it's not viable at all in low elo, even if you execute it perfectly. In that sense it is unhealthy because of how heavily the Sion player warps the game around him. However, my other thought is that inting Sion is good for the game because of how much it shows fighting or KDA do not matter as much as people think. I think it can be toned down, but I'd like to see it stay in the game.
The fact that Riot are only nerfing the damage to turrets when he dies already shows they don't want to kill the strat, just nerf it.
Aaaaaaaaand its nerfed
I don't really mind this inting sion, maybe because I came from Dota before League
It's not something that felt new to me.
Back in 2013, there was a Dota 2 team that won The International bc of split pushing. The strat was called Rat Dota by the Alliance
And it was cheesier than this
They were using Global teleports(prophet and Io) to destroy structures and then back off. In dota, you can actually outdamage backdoor protection if you have enough damage and AS.
its only toxic cause league players care more about kd ratio than objectives and will rage quit if you "int"
Love the inclusion of emotes as a visual in your videos!
This has the vibe as "red deck wins" in Magic the Gathering. Every moment you don't go for the enemy nexus is a wasted minute.
Well it seems like the coreans complained enough since Sion AND Hullbreaker are both getting nerfed next patch.
I can't answer the question if it is healthy but I think it is a good thing that leauge is not as 1 dimensional as shooters and death's are not only bad things honestly you can do good death on every champ as long as you get enough out of it.
The thing I like about this strategie is that it speaks more to the primal nature of the game your objective is not to kill the enemy but to make there Nexus explode and to do that you have to get theire turrets first not kill theire champions and I think it is cool to have a champ in the game that tries to play the game that way.
I also just like leauge because of it's diverse play styles there are'nt to many games were you can play wizards guys with guns and big tanky warriors in that are as balanced as leauge.
Now I had people in my game in the past too that did this and I was both getting carried by them just taking the Nexus at some point and pissed by them just dying without archiving anything but I think every stratgie that makes the game less 1 dimensional without beeing totaly broken is good.
Before watching the video
Because i enjoyed watching baus play it in korea and it was an interesting insight, i did also try ut out myself, decent winrate in silver and the best cs ive ever had with only ever losing to divine fioras and rivens (one toplane ap varus as well). And ive also had to play against it, i wouldn't call it toxic, because there are ways to play against it, if you change or adapt your playstyle and mamy other things the comments have alreayd mentioned. Honestly as a low elo toplaner who does not play the fancy waifu champs, it felt nice to feel like i actually had an impact in games for a change
So in League community there is this tendency to hate on any new feature, new champs, new dragons, new items; for league players everything new is wrong. So this playstyle is a punch to those players that just think that league is a lineal game where you win lane, you win fights you win the game, when it is way more than that. I think any new strategies like this is completely healthy, it just requires the player to think about macro and the game, not just aram on midlane/river. It requires both coordination for the enemy and the ally team, so the next time you see one in your soloQ games, instead of getting tilted and trying to 1v9; think about how to break the enemy nexus.
"sees a lumberjack skin"
I wonder what Yentleman is behind that shampion
I think it's unhealthy because it is the least fun thing to play against I have ever fucking seen.
I cant stand champs whose entire gameplan makes them the center of attention but it reaches a new low when killing that character is somehow detrimental to you