2:20 What was that? North Macedonia is by no means related to the ancient kingdom, whose territory is almost entirely in Greece today. The territory was called Paeonia, a different kingdom. North Macedonia is not related geographically, ethnically, linguistically, or culturally to ancient Macedonia. It's very unfortunate that you made this mistake.
Mostly yes as a Macedonian I agree I'm Albanian , but I can argue that the territorial landmark is still the same and that won't change no matter what tricks Greece pulls. Look at the map of Treaty of Bucharest, all of that was ottoman empire territory split with the peace agreement still nobody is happy about it. In a lot of north cities of Greece they speak Macedonian. The people lived there longer than 1913. Please google a map of ancient Macedonia before commenting hard like this.
Macedonia does actually overlap with ancient Macedonia. Along with this slavic Macedonians do have slavic admixture they also have greek ancestry. I mean could the same not be said about Egypt and Syria where the majority of people are Arabs with little cultural continuity to the historic civilizations? At least slavic Macedonians claim ancient Macedonia as part of its cultural heritage.
How exactly is North Macedonia related to the Ancient kingdom? Linguistically? Culturally? Geographically? It doesn’t seem like a helpful or even remotely accurate narrative to be spreading. Even the prespa agreement that both countries agreed on explicitly states that North Macededonia has no relation to the ancient Hellenic civilization.
I’m not sure why trying to break that territorial link is helpful or in Greece’s best interests either. The Prespa Agreement explicitly found a suitable compromise to both positions. It recognised the territory as the land of Alexander the Great, but also emphasises that the country’s present heritage is predominantly Slavic.
@@JamesKerLindsay You are right professor, but the people of that country still claim an ancient identity. It is everywhere in the social media, people from Skople claim everything. So, the "Slavic identity" remained in a paper inside a drawer. As for Macedonia, the original ancient Kingdom was always a small kingdom next to Thessaly, under Mount Olympus. The rest territory is expansions, and Skopje lay in Peonia which Phillip invaded, but the most popular map is that of the Roman province of Macedonia which include Skopje, and there is the problem.
@@martingelevski9509 "Modern slavs, both Macedonian and Bulgarian CANNOT establish a link with antiquity as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian Kingdom" “Macedonia Redux”, Eugene N. Borza, in The Eye Expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity, ed. Frances B Tichener & Richard F. Moorton, University of California Press, 1999
Even as a Slav I must admit that beginning of this video is misleading. Modern North Macedonians started their history where all Slavs history starts - in the swamplands of Polesia (modern Belarus, Ukraine and Poland) and there is no connection with ancient Kingdom of Macedonia. In fact Albanians have more intertwined history with Greeks than North Macedonians have. But instead going for "we conquered territories of Alexander the Great and made it out homeland" they try to cosplay as ancient Macedonians as if they were ashamed of their Slavic heritage (for God's sake Slavs conquered half of Europe and are the most numerous ethnic group in Europe and we did it without knowing how to read or write).
@@jean-luc_picard Slavic success was based on cultural dominance. Slavic culture was far more self-sufficient than any more civilized one. So when crisis came and civilized countries and tribes were collapsing because they were dependent on long distance trade, Slavs, with their more primitive political organization had largely self sufficient settlements. So whenever advance political and economical structures fell non-Slavic groups face either extinction, mass migration or abandonment of their way of life. And depending on region it look differently: modern Poland was basically empty because all Germanic tribes emigrated, while in Byzantine territories cultural absorption was more frequent. But it wasn't cultural blending in more traditional way, but rather abandoning old style of life to become part of Slavic community. So while there was definitely genetic mixing, cultural mixing was rather small and any notion historical or political continuity is extremely unlikely. And this is also reason why Romanians and Albanians survived even due extreme pressure from Slavic colonization - mountain people by definition were more self sufficient than their lowland counterpart and the pressure to abandon old way of living and do it Slavic way was smaller. So Romania is a quite good example of more traditional culture blending and a counterexample to abandoning civilized culture to become part of more self-sufficient and primitive culture, as seen in other regions colonized by Slavs.
@@jean-luc_picard Noone disappeared, Macedonia is still where it always was, in Ellas. Also many tribes of Eurasia are descendants of the Ellenic army all the way to Pakistan and Afghanistan. This "country" has nothing to do with Macedonia and Ellas, the exact opposite, the real people of the land were expelled to Ellas, having to abandon their homes and start all over, as their conqueror (monkeydonians) were very barbaric.
@@jean-luc_picardancient Macedonia was Greek and nothing else… yes, 1000 years AFTER Alexander the Great Slavs mixed with local Greeks from Macedonia, Epirus, Thesalia etc… What’s your point???
It's not just Greece's problem, it's also a Bulgarian problem as well, from which - an European problem. If you act like cattle, you will be treated like cattle
I did the Bulgarian angle in another video and got thousands of hate comments from Bulgarians after I said that Bulgaria didn’t really understand why it was angry with the Macedonians. (Every comment essentially said that I’d didn’t know what I was talking about. Of course, they knew why they were angry. And then each one gave me a different reason for their anger. You can’t make this stuff up. 🙂 I might have to revisit that discussion again.)
@@JamesKerLindsay Yeah, this is why it is so hard to untangle diplomatic issues. While we try to look at it dispassionately from the outside at the end of the day many conflicts just come down to people being angry often for ill-defined reasons based on generations of inherited hate. It is hard to solve a problem backed by mostly emotional impulses.
@JamesKerLindsay You are right that Bulgaria's position hasn't been clear about what our neighbors should do exactly to get our final nod for the EU. However, I do think you somewhat trivialize the issues between the two countries, and there are many: the language, the huge number of Bulgarians with Macedonian roots(all over Bulgaria), the identity of historical figures, archeological evidence etc. Many people believe the issues are exploited by politicians (on both sides) who could instead be looking for practical solutions to improve relations. The situation is quite similar to Romania/Moldova, Greece/Cyprus, Albania/Kososvo, Serbia/R. Srpska. Lots of shared history, but separate countries. Hopefully, all will be part of the part of the EU eventually, and we will be able to overcome the silly bickering. I hope you do a follow-up video on the MK-BG-GR disputes, perhaps fact-checking everyone's claims as a neutral observer.
I mean from what i've seen North Macedonia has no relation whatsoever with ancient Macedonia as they are not ethnically Greek so I get why Greece is mad.
That is true! Macedonia is part of the Greek culture. Even the names Alexander, olymliada, Philip, aristotelis, and macedonia are of Greek origin themselves.
I live in Flanders. Except that I don't, because my region used to be part of the historical duchy of Brabant and not the historical county of Flanders. And yet those in Lille who historically were Flemish and today are part of France, aren't upset by this. Besides, it would be ironic for Frenchies to be upset, since unlike them, us Flemishmen are the descendants of the Franks and we don't make a fuss about that either. Damn, sometimes I'm happy we are not the Balkans.
@@1302VLI am not sure your case is the same as the one described here. In this case, a Slavic people who appeared 1000 years after Alexander the Great claims that descended from Alexander the Great. A people who speaks a dialect of Bulgarian tries to connect itself with a person who spoke Greek, identified as Greek and spread Greek language and culture to Afghanistan and India. Do you now get it maybe a little better?
@@Marble8King so they use an ahistorical name. Like Flanders does. And France does. And Russia does (the Rus were Germanic). And half of the world does. What is not the same about it precisely?
1. The original Macedonian territory was smaller and more southern, its inhabitants were Greeks and spoke a northern Greek dialect related to Doric, and almost all of it is located in today's Greece. 2. It's the Romans who expanded it to include Paeonia and Dardania; this is where Republic of N. Macedonia sits right now. 3. There's no mention of Slavic migrations.
"Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states" - Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96.
@@Love78787 Herodotus mentions that the Macedonians are a Dorian race, which originally lived in Pindos and later settled in the Peloponnese. The Argeades attributed their origin to the first mythical king of Argos, Timenos.
@@Love78787 Don't rely too much for your propaganda on Borza. The Slav-Macedonians, Borza viewed as a "newly emergent people" who he believed could not establish a link with antiquity because "Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom". He saw any alleged link of Slav-Macedonians to the ancient Macedonian kingdom as a product of regional political factors, and not genetic or cultural.
are you claiming that North Macedonia and its Bulgarian/slavic population has ties to the ancient Macedonian/Greek peoples and empire? LOL if so then you have lost all credibility and I cannot take you seriously anymore! I am not even greek by the way.
North Macedonia partially overlaps with ancient Macedonia. While they do have genetic similarity with Bulgarian they are also genetically related to greek Macedonians.
@@billzhang8628 ok then so by your logic Turkiye is also ancient Greece or Macedonia because many turks have some genetics as the ancient greeks and Turkiye has lands that once were part of ancient Greece and the Macedonian empire. LOL
by the way, in [02:20] i guess you were confused when you said that "North Macedonia have an extraordinary History and then referred to the ancient Macedonian Kingdom etc". you wanted just to say "ancient Macedonia has an extraordinary History etc"
One of James’s absolutely standard introductory remarks is ‘(Insert obscure or disputed people or landmass here) has a very rich and complex history, dating back to (insert distant time period here)’. Much as I love him, it’s a rather banal and meaningless ‘apple pie’ statement to make the topic at hand seem more interesting and worthy of analysis. Tell me which people or territories do not , arguably, have ‘a rich and complex history, stretching back to the beginning of time’?? This one, though I sympathise with the Greeks and respect for international treaties, is just another self-interest-based dispute between different groups of people and their populist and power-hungry leaders. Pathetic. 🤷♂️
@@hisdadjames4876Yes but it's looks like everyone dp it in purpose. Ancient Macedonians was Greeks not Slavs and ancient Macedonia is inside Greece, where is and the original region of Macedonia. There is not such things as Macedonia outside Greece. These people of 'North Macedonia' are mix of Bulgarians and Albanians who want to steal Greek history. This place of 'North Macedonia' till 30 years ago was called Vardaska Banovina
I know I'm really not meant to laugh, but as someone who has spent decades working on the region and is a bone-fide professor of SE Europe politics and international relations, I really couldn't help it! It really is either laugh or cry sometimes!
@@JamesKerLindsay the situation in the Balkans is often tragicomic due to the appetites of the great powers to divide and rule the region, which turns out to be quite profitable for them and quite miserable for us. The only solution is united and strong Balkans!!! Тhanks to our centuries of suffering, Western countries live in peace and prosperity. So instead of teaching us how to live, show some respect.
If you overlay a map of modern northern Macedonia with ancient Macedonia, there is basically almost no overlap. Macedonia is and was part of what would be considered the Greek/Hellenistic cultural sphere that would be inherited by the modern day state of Greece. Northern Macedonia is just a bunch of Bulgarians with an identity crisis, their languages are basically the same. I don’t know why they’re so desperate to claim the heritage of Macedonia when Bulgaria also has a rich and long history.
yeah and turkey should named hitites. lmao. 2k years ago.... dude. this is madness. a lot of migration periods happened. ancient people and cultures are gone.
@@ozgurd5920 The turkish people even in their own founding myth do not consider themselves as being indigenous to anatolia, (even though a vast majority of Turkey population is). They're arguments that could be made on cultural and linguistic lines, not just ancestral and ethnic ones. Difference with North Macedonia is they do not have any those.
@@itsorganic7739 anglo-saxons were not british yet they claim they are british and they protect stonehenge etc right? so why not macedons cannot create their identity by their current place? and why greece getting hurted by this?
@@ozgurd5920 No one really claims to be an "Anglo Saxon". That term is largely used in reference to the germanic invaders of the british isles from the early middle ages. The reason why that term endured is because most of what would become england became the domain of the anglo saxons, while the older cultures on the island like the romano british got pushed back to places like wales and cornwall. Over time these people began to consider themselves English once the country was unified, and eventually British as their control over the other cultural entities on the island was expanded. "Anglo saxon" as a term today is really only in reference to the linguistic heritage of the English language. The germanic invaders spoke what is known as "Old English" which was an anglo saxon/german dialect. That langauge eventually evolved into the english we have today on the british isle over centuries of change and cultural influences. The basis of that language though is still its Anglo Saxon Roots
I have followed this situation closely for many years. However, like many others, I thought the two countries had finally resolved this dispute. But it seems not. So, do you think that the New Government in North Macedonia will try to revoke the Prespa Agreement? And what will happen if it does? Or will it just continue to undermine it in other ways? And what will Greece and the EU do if it does? As always, I look forward to hearing your thoughts and comments below.
As an American I simple cannot fully understand this issue of heritage. All my life I've been told, there's a little bit of this nationality and a little bit of that one, I simply don't know what it's like to have not just one, but one that goes back for centuries. I can't reproduce that connection. Disputes over heritage only I find fascinating.
The North Macedonian government has been trying to forge a distinct identity and the Prespa agreement distorts the image they have been painting. While some people are ok with this distortion, many other cannot accept the fact that they have been deceived since childhood or simply admit they have been wrong all along. The pendulum has now swung and the balance of power is in the latter's favour. Let's see how long will they keep it. P.S. It's the Balkans and thing are never straightforward.
I am sorry but you confuse things. Macedonia as geographical location and an old Greek population has nothing to do with current North Macedonia, who are Slavs/ Bulgarians. It’s like saying USA has a rich history of of Siberian and Asian people who are known as Clovis people thousands years ago.
By that logic "New" Greek population doesn't have much to do with ancient one either. Some stayed and mixed with new people and others migrated, same as Greece or any other country.
considering he missed out a very very big chunk of complicated history in which it was Bulgarian (hell the capital was there ), then Serb and then ottoman . Then all the ethnic cleansing on the otomans behalf due to rebellions from the ethnic groups , the the Serb propaganda years . Yes he might as well say it
North Macedonia wasn't even a think back when Alexander made his Empire. It just happenes to share a name with the ancient greek empire due to them occupying part of the area that made up the original Greek kingdom of Macedon. The area though was only taken many many many centuries after. They aren't even greek they are slavs (no probelm towards the people even have some slav friends) and alexander and his empire where greek. Slavs weren't even close to a think during 300 bc
I mean could the same not be said about Egypt and Syria where the majority of people are Arabs with little cultural continuity to the historic civilizations?
@@billzhang8628 No, it is not the same because there is not a North Syria or a North Egypt. Where there is an actual Macedonia, which is in northern Greece
@@alfredoarroyo9201 Assyria only partially overlaps with modern Syria. In fact there are more Assyrians in Iraq. North Macedonia does partially overlap with ancient Macedonia.
I'm Serbian and in my experience most Serbians feel like its ridiculous for N Macedónia to pretend to be the descendents of Philip and Alexander the Great.... It's just stupid ... But also I can tell anyone that the people of the Balkans are some of the most stubborn people on Earth... Lol God Bless them all 🙏... I pray that they'll figure things out tho ...
@@EdMcF1 go and see how the people suffer for decades in northern Greece with even threatening text messages in the middle of the night and come back again to talk about bullying The country is literally teaching hate to their youth about their neighboring countries and are threatening them with war And you still have the Audacity to talk about bullies.
2:25 I am surprised you stated that North Macedonia is anyhow linked to Alexander the Great. The cornestone of the Prespa Agreement is that North Macedonia will refrain from claiming any connection with Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonian symbols.
Maybe I got this wrong, but watching the intro to do this video. There was the Ottoman Province of Macedonia. That got split up between Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria, and it just so happens that the only sovereign -free part of that former province is the Serbian one. Umm so there is like a concept there that these people grew up in the past seeing themselves as Macedonians, because living in that province. No idea.
@@MarkVrem There was no Ottoman Province of Macedonia. They never used the name. The Turks called the area the vilayets (provinces) of Selanik (Salonica), Manastir (derived from the Greek name Monastiri, now known as Bitola), and Kosovo.
According to a German historian, today's Greeks have no internal ties with the ancient Greeks and Hellenes. Current Greeks are a mixture of Slavs, Albanians and Romanians.
James, I have 2 simple questions. Have you been to Alexandria in Egypt? Because I did various times and can assure you they all consider Alexandar the Great as Greek and use the Arabic word Al-Yunan (just like Turkish Yunanistan). You will see Greek writings in many places. This script cannot be read by today's North Macedonia. Also why is the modern Macedonian language the closest to Bulgarian and not Serbo-Croatian? 🙂
Thanks. Unfortunately, this seems to becoming up a lot. I said that North Macedonia has a long history. This should not be contentions. We routinely refer to the history of countries long before they existed. Greece is a great case in point. We talk of its long history, even though it only became a state in 1830. But referring to the ancient Kingdom of Macedonia doesn’t mean that North Macedonia is some sort of direct successor to that. That would be illogical in every way. But it was necessary to raise the kingdom in order to explain why the current disputes between Greece and North Macedonia have arisen. Sadly, some appear to want to read this as suggesting a direct link. I didn’t say that. And it never entered my head that it could or would be interpreted in that way. Thanks for pointing it out. I just wish that many others had done so in a polite way. Instead they have been throwing abuse. Sadly, to non-Greeks this will only reinforce the view that many Greeks are unpleasantly irrational on this issue.
@@JamesKerLindsay As a Cypriot Greek I would agree with my compatriots or other Greeks who are angry on this issue. It's like calling England a Spanish province or something as ridiculous as that. There are limits to what one can listen to or read about and not reply. Therefore it is prompt to correct things so that they are not misunderstood my anyone. Thanks.
I'm neither Greek nor Bulgarian just someone interested in history and geopolitics but it seems like North Macedonia is a nation of roleplayers lol. Especially adopting the imagery of Alexander when he lived way before the Slavic migration to the area. I do wonder though about if Greece throwing such a fit over the name is the right approach. Like they could just let them keep the name and use it as an opportunity to try to spread more of their culture and influence into the area instead of riding on their historic influence of the area.
I think it goes deeper. I just watched the intro so far. But it got me thinking. There was a province of Macedonia in the Ottoman Empire. It just so happens that the only area of that once province that is free, is North Macedonia. Maybe the Greeks and Bulgars fear their territories of Macedonia could be inspired to be sovereign also. Not sure.
@@MarkVrem I'm pretty sure the majority of people in the Greek region of Macedon identify as Greece. I'm not sure about Bulgaria though but if that were the case, wouldn't the people in Greece/Bulgaria that want to unite with North Macedonia be more vocal? It really doesn't seem like that is the case or that there is a North Macedonian majority in those areas
I understand your mindset, but you cannot portray a nation’s people as “roleplayers” if we simply follow our culture and historical heritage, which is rooted in the Ancient period of Macedonia. Our ancestors praised the conquests of Alexander the Great and the glory of Macedon in countless works. Ancient Macedonia has been used as a symbolism for freedom from Ottoman captivity by the Macedonians themselves. The symbolism of the Ancient Macedonians has been maintained throughout the 2,000 years after Alexander the Great’s reign, being engraved in our flags, coat of arms, religious sites and our tradition. We have not simply adopted the imagery of Alexander the Great, we inherited it from our ancestors instead.
@@Odyssey05 The Vergina Sun and all other ancient Macedonian symbols were not used in North Macedonia before the 1990's. Neither ancient Macedonian names like Alexander or Philip, neither folk song and other relative cultural elements. For example, the "Bulgarian Folk Songs" of the Miladinov Brothers in 1861, and other literary product before the 1990's speaks nothing about ancient Macedonia
Hello William, I am so very sorry for not replying to this at the time. I have only just seen it. (YT really isn’t very good at notifications!) Thank you so much. That is incredibly kind. I really and truly appreciate it. Very best regards, James
But let's suppose North Macedonia did get in to the EU with its new name. There's absolutely nothing to stop it checking the name back, is there? No Chapters of the Acqui will have been broken, not anything even to sanction the state.
Yep. There was no enforcement mechanism of any kind in 2018. I honestly don't see how they join the EU without at least some sort of mechanism now unless the new government in Skopje grovels, which they won't do. Maybe a future NM government will be willing to grovel.
Greece might insist on some form of exception, a bit like Denmark's little tweak to the Maastricht Treaty allowing it to ban (cough) Germans from buying holiday homes in Denmark.
@@EdMcF1 That was a Denmark opt-out, applied within its own country, not applied on another country. And although it's true that it was protecting itself from holiday home buyers of its neighbours Germany, it's not a ban on foreigners buying those properties but a ban on non-residents buying them. If they become tax-paying residents, Germans can buy the properties. (Canary Islands resident here: holiday homes were not just an issue for Denmark then, but are a contemporary issue for various places today, huh?)
@@LevisDeepMomShit007 Don't listen to this troll. He is Niko Ivanov from Dupnica Bulgaria , using my nickname and pfp as impersonalization. The only difference is he can't copy my tag since I've already taken it and I have 1 number less and 1 letter more.
I guess what you said there (02:20) is exactly what pees Bulgarians and Greeks off and this is why they are so firm with the republic that shouldn't be named. You said that the history of North Macedonia emerged as a kingdom which is a very inaccurate statement. There is no continuity between Ancient Macedonia and the republic of north macedonia, and as such, its history started on 2nd August, 1944 and its language was codified, as pointed in the entry on that language in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, based on the the dialect furthest away from Bulgarian, by the Serbs. Guess why!
Macedonia is part of the Greek culture. The names (Alexander, Philip, olympiada, Aristotelis, Macedonia, etc) are all of Greek origin. In Greek language this names have a meaning, but in slavic they are random translated words. Even the era of Alexander's campaign was named as HELLENISTIC(GREEK) ERA and not a macedonian or slavic era, or sametihing. The scripts, coins, texts of that period are all in Greek and not in slavic. Why? The macedonians participated in Olympic games, where only Greeks could participate. Macedonian kingdom was connected with Greece and not wuth tha slavs coming into the region in 7th century.
"Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states" - Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96.
@@Love78787 Herodotus mentions that the Macedonians are a Dorian race, which originally lived in Pindos and later settled in the Peloponnese. The Argeades attributed their origin to the first mythical king of Argos, Timenos. 🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷
@@Love78787 Macedonians participated in the Olympics, only Greeks could participate back then. Great Alexander's Era was called worldwide as HELLENISTIC (GREEK) ERA, not something else. Macedonians spoke Greek we can understand their texts in Greek. So, what are you talking about??🤩🤩🤩
@@Love78787Do not mention Herodotus in our discussion because you have never even touched a book of him. I read Herodotus in Greek and i can understand. Can you do the same????
@@ΙωάννηςΕλ The Macedonians had Macedonian pagan religion that has nothing to do with the greek that is why there are Macedonian games at Dion. ''the ancient Macedonians were part of a local pantheon which included Thaulos (god of war equated with Ares), Gyga (later equated with Athena), Gozoria (goddess of hunting equated with Artemis), Zeirene (goddess of love equated with Aphrodite) and Xandos (god of light).[135]'' 😋
The question is (as with other treaties): are there ways to protect what has become international law against potential violators? For instance, North Macedonia joined NATO as part of the deal with Greece, yet there is no possibility that it would loose its position in the alliance should it decide to depart from the Prespa Agreement. So what is it that protects an international agreement? When an individual breaks the law, there are immediate and very precise consequences. But the consequences for a state breaking international law are very vague, thus making international law weak in its implementation
Before the Prespa Agreement, there was a another agreement in 1995, which established the provisional name FYROM for usage in the UN and on a bilateral level between Macedonia and Greece. This agreement had a clause that Greece would not block Macedonia's membership into international organizations. Greece violated this agreement in 2008, by vetoing Macedonia's NATO membership. In 2011, there was an ICJ ruling that Greece violated the agreement. The democratic and law-abiding international community (UN, NATO, EU, etc), took a very good reading of ICJ ruling, and told Macedonians that we can wipe our bottoms with it. Based on that, any other ruling on the matter will have similar weight.
Yeah okay 2:20 you just lost me. it's just blatant misinformation regarding history. I came here looking for a respectable analysis and im greeted with lies and deceit.
You actually associated North Macedonia with Alexander the Great and his Hellenistic empire in your introduction? Do your homework Professor, the North Macedonians who identify as Macedonian are Bulgarian speaking Slavs, not Greek Speakers with a Greek identity like Alexander was. Furthermore, the ancient Kingdom of Macedonia was centered in what is now the Greek province of Macedonia. They are Slav Bulgars who have robbed a history and identity that is not theirs.
Seriously, I’m not sure how many times I have to say this: if I didn’t mention it, the reasons why Greece was so upset about the issue of Alexander wouldn’t have been understood to outsiders. And if I didn’t mention, you would have been furious that I was whitewashing the link between Greece, Macedonia and Alexander. I was also clear that the modern Macedonians deal a South Slavic language and that the identity was essentially constructed by Yugoslavia. Seriously, this is why people became so frustrated with Greece on this issue. One couldn’t win. And it seems one still can’t!
@@JamesKerLindsay the Macedonian identity was not constructed in Yugoslavia. The idea of a separete Macedonian identity rose after the 1870s, when Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia started competing for Ottoman Macedonia. After WWII, the Yugoslav government just recognised its existance. Macedonians living in Macedonia have both Slavic and ancient heritige. Legends and customs dating back to antiquity are still strong among Macedonians. We speak a Slavic language, but our culture is closely tied with the Eastern Mediterranean region.
@@JamesKerLindsay Professor, some things are just factually inaccurate and that was. I know you mentioned the rest. I don't personally care if anyone got frustrated with Greece. The fact is Greece and those who have the right to claim a historical connection to ancient Macedonia, as in the Greek speaking population of what was historical ancient Macedonia, were/are being robbed and unfortunately, appeasing, some would argue traitorous, elements in the Greek elite, have compromised history and reality by giving a Bulgarian Slavic people the right to use even the term North Macedonia as a description for the state north of Greece's Macedonian province, and the right to label a Slavic Bulgarian dialect as a Macedonian language. Its disgusting; a perversion of history and identity and will no doubt cause all sorts of tensions going forward.
Todays Greeks have nothing to do with ancient Greeks. They are a African tribe that came later in the teritory of todays Greece. Before the Greece was established around 1830 year, when asked who they are ordinary Greeks were answering that they were Romei people- that means decendants of the Roman empire that incorporated thousents of ethnic groups. So the Western powers in 1830 invented Greece and all the famous Hellenic and Macedonian historical heritage "gave it" exclusively to Greece and falsified the true history, according to its political needs at that time.
Which African tribe exactly came to |Greece and when?...................Do you mean Zulus came to Greece? So you reckon todays Greeks are descendants of Zulus you reckon? When Greece was conquered by Rome the Greeks became Romanised and self identified as Romans (Romaioi) This fusion of ancient Greece and ancient Rome resulted in the medieval Greek Empire called the Byzantine Empire. You can't invent Greece, Greece has been around for Millenia, Greece was under Ottoman rule for 400 years and the Greeks rose up in rebellion in 1770 and then in 1821 and free Greece was established in 1828 after 400 years of Ottoman rule
@rafaellagaribaldi9391 There were migrations of the people that lived there. Fisically, Today's Greeks are with dark skin, dark hair, brown eyes, most of them off course. Ancient Greeks, in contrary, were mostly blue eyed with light skin tone. Modern Greece is a political project of the Western powers that seek to detent the Otoman empire and establish presence in the Balkans and Mediteranian sea. The theritory of Macedonia was brutaly divided in 1913 and the population in the southern part ,that was occupied by Greek monarchy ,was tortured and partially ethnicaly cleansed in 1948 year. Dear Lady, official Western history is a fraud. Also There was no migration of the Slavic people from the Carpatian mountines to the Balkans in the 9th century. Happy NY and stay smart
@@Rweheheheh you said African tribes came to Greece, When did these African tribes come to Greece? You don't make it quite clear when and from which African tribe tribe they belonged to? I mean were they Zulus for example?? did Zulus come to Greece??
Only someone deeply familiar with the history and politics of the Balkans can understand the total farce that is North Macedonia. The idea that the Slavs in Macedonia are ancient Greeks is actually Greek propaganda from the 18th-19th centuries, which Greece used to de-Bulgarianize and assimilate them, parallel to the slogan of the national hero of Greece, Pavlos Menachs, "there should not be a living Bulgarian in Macedonia". The national symbol of this country is the revolutionary organization VMRO. The organization itself strongly opposes Greek propaganda and even in official documents discussed measures to combat the term "Macedonia" and Macedonians - specifically, the national hero of North Macedonia, Damian Gruev, wrote about it. Damian (Dame) Gruev himself is an ethnic Bulgarian, and VMRO is a Bulgarian organization that arose as an attempt to revise the Berlin Congress of 1878, by which the Bulgarians were divided into several parts after the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878 and in this organization only Bulgarian members of the Bulgarian Exarchate can be members (in Orthodoxy this represents ethnophiletism, which is why this church was stigmatized in the Orthodox world until the end of the Second World War). Historically, the "Macedonians" in these lands were never called Macedonians, but Bulgarians. As Prof. Raymond Detrez says "these people called themselves Bulgarians and were called Bulgarians by others" (this quote is from an online scholarly debate between Bulgarian and Macedonian historians during Covid and can be viewed at T). It is even funnier that even after World War II the communists in Yugoslavia wrote that these people were "Slavs", it is not clear what Slavs (they were already forbidden to define themselves as Bulgarians). However, a Greek mythology and propaganda began to be harnessed to build a new identity for these people. The story of the ancient mighty Macedonians perfectly fits the building of a national identity different from the Bulgarian one. Thus, the Bulgarians became "Tatars, Mongols, fascists, occupiers", and the Macedonians, an ancient nation of 3000 years old, that "gave the world the white race, Christianity and the Cyrillic alphabet" - these are real statements of the new Macedonian historical science. Many people today may accept this lie sympathetically and with a smile. In reality, however, behind it hides terrible hatred, discrimination and chauvinism, which leads to territorial, ethnic, church and minority claims toward Greece and Bulgaria. Looking at certain maps from the 19th century, these people believe that the Ottoman-era Maceodnia vilayet belongs to them. This vilayet is only an administrative region and today includes Greece and Bulgaria (and a small part of Serbia, but in North Macedonia no one dares to claim Serbia ;)))). Moreover, the new Macedonian nation was given a new "Macedonian language" by the communists, which was created by Bulgarian writer Venko Markovski. Markovski himself later renounced his own creation because it divided the Bulgarians. However, this new Macedonian language is a regional form of the Bulgarian and as such is spoken by Bulgarians in Macedonia and by Bulgarians in today's Pirin region in Bulgaria. Skopje persistently lobbied to impose this new language and thus claim a Macedonian minority in Bulgaria and Greece - historically there is no such thing. Things are becoming particularly dangerous for Bulgaria, because at the creation of Yugoslavia, Bulgaria had to become a member and give the Pirin area to the new Macedonian state. The communists, with decrees and violence, turned hundreds of thousands of Bulgarians into Macedonians. This policy was abandoned by Bulgaria, but Macedonia uses now this period to claim a minority in Bulgaria. In the 1970s, Yugoslav intelligence worked in this direction and created organizations OMO Ilinden Pirin to claim cultural autonomy of certain regions in Greece and Bulgaria, but they were exposed. Bulgaria and Greece consolidate their policies against Yugoslav claims. The conclusion is that behind the name there are serious claims of this young country to Greece and Bulgaria - territorial and minority, which, however, have no historical basis. The refusal of the politicians in Skopje to respect the agreements with Greece and Bulgaria shows a desire for revisionism. Bulgaria and Greece will not allow this, and rightly so. Behind the concept of Macedonia (without North) are claims to the whole of Macedonia. For this, Greece and Bulgaria have clauses in the contracts with North Macedonia that NM they will not interfere in the internal affairs of these two countries. However, the new rulers in Skopje openly say that they want to respect the rights of the Macedonian minorities in Greece and Bulgaria, which is a gross violation of the treaties. Skopje also reacted extremely painfully to the recognition of Bulgarian minorities in Albania and Kosovo. En masse, Bulgarians set up their own schools there. During Yugoslavia, these people were forced to write as Macedonians. The story is a real farce. At the same time, hundreds of thousands of Macedonians became Bulgarian citizens and left the country. In the last two years alone, 4,500 Macedonians have proven their Bulgarian origin and have become Bulgarians. In total, there are now more than 120,000 people.Skopje stubbornly refuses to end the state-instilled hatred towards Bulgaria and the Bulgarians and, above all, to end the falsification of the Bulgarians history on these lands. For this, Bulgaria insists that the mixed historical commission clean up the falsifications accumulated from the time of communism, but Skopje withdrew from this commitment as well. Yesterday, in a televised debate, Risto Nikovski- macdonian diplomat said "there are no Bulgarians in Macedonia". This is the old Yugoslav thesis and apparently Skopje will continue to suppress these people. All cultural clubs of the Bulgarians have already been set on fire, last year they were shootings with weapons against those clubs, there were stone attacks and all the presidents of Bulgarian cultural clubs are on trial for inciting hatred. The terror towards the Bulgarians in Macedonia is total. Skopje does not want to include them in its constitution as a people and this shows the true face of this regime.
Macedonians are not bulgarians, it's not so easy to get independence alone, macedonians were close with Bulgarians so they can get independence, also people weren't educated so much back then
@@petar4968 These are untenable arguments. Historical science has no data on such an ethnic group in medieval Europe. Ottoman archives, the travelogues of many Western travelers and diplomats, dozens of ethnic maps of this region show that the largest ethnic group is the Bulgarians. At the same time, not a single source speaks of Macedonians. All the heads of the revolutionary organization VMRO have written biographies - as far as I know, only Pere Toshev does not, but he was a resident of the Bulgarian intelligence in Istanbul, which clearly shows what nationality he was. All revolutionaries clearly write about Bulgarians. The first statute of VMRO speaks only of Bulgarians, there is not even a mention of Macedonians. These people were extremely educated in their time. Doctor Hristo Tatarchev died before the 1950s and spoke clearly about the freedom of the Macedonian Bulgarians. Gotse Delchev in over 60 documents, some of which were written by himself, is defined as Bulgarian and never as Macedonian. In the past, Bulgarians and Macedonians were the same thing. Today they are two separate countries, with two separate peoples, but historically they are the same thing.
1539 Theseus Ambrogio Albonese (1469-1540/41) is an Italian humanist from the period of the Italian Renaissance, representative of Christian (Catholic) Kabbalism and harbinger of Orientalism. His most important work is the book Chaldaicam linguam, Syriacam, atque Armenicam, & decem alias linguas. Published in 1539, in which the church psalms are translated from several languages, and the languages of the time and the alphabet used by the peoples as a means of written communication are recorded. In his book, he makes a language alphabetic parallel between several languages such as Latin, Greek, Dalmatian , Syriac, Arabic, Hebrew... including Macedonian, which is listed as a separate language apart from Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian. You can freely find that book of his in the original on the net.
@@DavidSimonoski-e3q, bro, the fact that Bulgarians got their ethnonym from the Turkic tribe of Bulgars doesn't mean that Bulgarians are Turks and they should return to Tatarstan... Russian also got their ethnonym from the Scandinavian tribe Rus, but this doesn't mean that all Russians should return to Scandinavia
If the country is called Macedonia: the Greeks are unhappy because it negates their historical heritage. If the country is called North Macedonia, but with the denomination of "Macedonian" for the language and people, then Bulgaria is unhappy because it negates their cultural heritage in the region. Also, Greece is still unhappy. And if the country is called anything other but "Macedonia", then it negates the identity of the people living in the country. Sounds like there could be no compromise. Although I have a proposal that is going to infuriate everyone equally: Republic of North Alexandria and West Bulgaria
As an ethnic Dutch-Macedonian I'd like to thank you @JamesKerLindsay for making this video about one of my countries of origin. I'd like to mention a few relevant facts that weren’t addressed in the video that I think shed an interesting light on this conflict. 12:12 - The incoming government in my view doesn't actually need to pass new amendments to the constitution to undo the name change. This due to the fact that the original constitutional amendments for the name change, as approved in various votes from October 2018 to January 2019 in the Macedonian parliament, have been illegally influenced in such a manner that render these amendments null and void - that is, if Macedonia is a democratic country that is ruled by law. This because the government of then PM Zoran Zaev didn’t have the required two-thirds majority in parliament to change the constitution. To combat this, Zaev exerted inappropriate and illegal control over the public prosecutor and the judiciary in order to blackmail 8 opposition (VMRO) MP’s into voting for his constitutional changes. Those 8 MP’s helped pass a highly controversial amnesty law for ongoing (!) criminal proceedings against three of them, with three others having been benefited in different legal proceedings, and the remainder got allegedly bribed by lucrative government contracts. He as the head of the executive power of the government essentially abused the judicial power to illegally influence the legislative power. In a democratic country that is ruled by law, this is a massive violation of the principle of separation of powers, that renders the involved changes to the constitution null and void. The country therefore never legally changed its name in the first place. Macedonia’s Constitutional Court should declare so and reinstate the last legally valid Constitution in the country. Then the government should undo all implementations of the agreement. And afterwards Greece can complain to the ICJ in The Hague for being in NATO with the Republic of Macedonia.. 2:20 - It’s not really fair to the ancient Macedonians (but they’re all dead now anyway) to state that “North” Macedonia’s history begins with their ancient kingdom. The name of the land surely did start with them and their kingdom. But a lot has happened between ancient and modern times. The relationship between ancient and modern Macedonians is genetic at best. There is broad scientific consensus that the Slavic invaders starting from the 5th century mixed with the local population. But that local population didn’t regard themselves as Macedonians (while genetically speaking they very likely were their heirs) anymore already for a few centuries. Nevertheless, an “unbroken” connection isn’t required for modern Macedonians to have a right to call themselves as such. Their presence in the region of Macedonia as a whole, of over 1,500 years up until today, is. And this is significantly longer than today’s Greeks from their Macedonian province who have been taught only sine the 1980’s to regard themselves as the real descendants of the ancient Macedonians (purposefully done by nationalist Greek forces in response to the decline of Yugoslavia). Also, the idea of modern ethnic Macedonians that they’re descendants of Alexander the Great and ancient Macedonians didn’t fell out of thin air, neither in 1945 or in 1991. In fact, it was the Greek Orthodox Church and the Greek state, starting almost 200 years ago, that taught the Slavs of Macedonia this, while the Ottoman Empire began to decline. Not as a selfless gift, but because Greece wanted to conquer Ottoman Macedonia and Hellenise (or Greekify if you will) the (mostly Slavic) population. A territory that never has been ruled by a Greek state until then by the way. The descendants of those Slavs that were Hellenised in this period regard themselves today as Greeks (and probably also vehemently as the only real Macedonians..) without having any clue of their actual Slavic history. This has been carefully swept under the carpet. And those Slavic Macedonians who didn’t Hellenise fully in the end got exterminated or expelled and continue to suffer from misplaced Greek nationalism and fascism to this day. In closing, it’s both funny and sad to see here in the comments how so many Greeks are so uninformed about their own history. When it comes to the Macedonian Question, the Greek public is filled with lies and distortions, in large part due to the forced nation-building processes that took place mostly between the second Balkan War and the fall of Yugoslavia. Which is a disgrace to the legacy of the ancient Greeks for sure. Thankfully the relationship between them is also genetic (and linguistic, fair enough) at best.
Your origins then translate into Dutch-Albano-Slavic mix. So besides not being a homogenous person, but a mix, you also do not have heritage of a tribe that is Hellenic. Thank you for the novel btw! :)
@@aetherion7 thank you. And thank you for proving my point on misplaced Greek nationalism and fascism by your apparent criticism on me not being a homogenous person and not having Hellenic ancestry :)
Thank you. I realise that many argue that the ratification of the Prespa Agreement was unlawful, and I admit that it was rather irregular, but it passed through Parliament and it is done. More to the point, the country has benefited from it. It seems unwise to open it again. By the way, I have also adjusted the video to remove North at the point you mentioned. It was causing a lot of unnecessary angst, with many reading into it a completely separate meaning to the one intended. I therefore removed the word North from that point. This will hopefully clear up any confusion.
I admire your courage, Professor. Diving headfirst into the Powderkeg that remains the Balkans is not good for one's mental well-being. Still, there must be discussion about such sensitive matters. Calm, polite and reasonable analyses such as yours are all the more required, considering how emotionally charged these situations are .Hope you are faring well!
Good Morning James, It is often disappointing these days when a historic agreement is reached and with a change in administration in one of the parties involved, it gets revoked - as it happened with the US Iran deal. That said, I am curious with one of the terms you used - 'peace agreement'. To the extent I know, the two sides were never engaged in violent conflict ? Is it common to use this term in the context? In order to not trigger emotions in the comments section, I would take one of the most obscure 'disputes'- in future if Portugal were to dismiss its claim on Olivença against Spain, would it be considered a peace agreement given these two sides were never in active conflict over it? Have a good weekend.
Thanks Anirudh. I think we can call it a peace agreement. Agreed, we do tend to think of peace agreements as being linked to violent conflicts. However, I the term can be applied to other situations where there is a serious point of dispute that is resolved. After thirty years of tensions, which even ended up before the UN and ICJ, I think this qualified as a peace agreement. :-) I hope all else is well at your end.
I whant to state something Many in North Macedonia citizens dont like the agrement then goverment made it cause it was promised by Brusseles if i remember correctly and French President and then Cancellor of Germany Angela Merkel supported by the US made promise to start ascension talks with North Macedonia for the European Union which we know it didnt happen cause of the Bulgarian Veto,and now we can see how the European Union undermined itself when it came to the agreement.and the people felt betrayed and cheated and felt the naming issue didnt bring us any good thing.
!!!!!!!!!!! 2:21 “NM has an extraordinarily long and rich history, having emerged as a kingdom on the periphery of Ancient Greece, under Alexander the Great it expanded...” I’m honestly PINCHING MYSELF to believe that YOU out of all people said this!!!!! YOU!!! I’ve watched more than a couple of dozen of your videos, and I always admired how carefully you chose your words… Wow… Seriously, I’m in disbelief… I had to rewind and hear that part again… It’s not “North Macedonia” that has an extraordinarily long and rich history that expanded as a kingdom under Alexander the Great, it’s MACEDONIA that has an extraordinarily long and rich history, and expanded as a kingdom under Alexander the Great… Seriously, Professor, with all due respect, WHAT THE FUCK WHERE YOU THINKING?????!!!!! As for the thumbnail about “Greece’s next problem?”, honestly, I’m over the moon listening to the Skopje politicians call their country “Macedonia”, and from the bottom of my heart, I wish they continue doing it more and more vocally. The way I see things, this is the only way to have that shameful agreement annulled. And please, don’t give me any “international agreements are sacred blah-blah-blah”. Our previous government, a bunch of no ones, a bunch of people who were no ones for most of their life, found themselves in charge for a minimal period of time, and then went back to being no ones, had no right in the first place to sign that national treason-level agreement. “But they were democratically elected”, someone can argue. “Being the government, they had every right to sign any agreement”, you could say. First, what they signed, was NOT in their pre-election manifesto, and in such a vastly important issue, they had no legitimacy to act on their own. Second, honestly, I don’t get how a government that runs a country for a couple of years, gets to sell - pretty much - a name that is thousands of years old. WHO WERE THEY TO DO THAT???!!! A government can decide on the… VAT imposed on something, can decide on which infrastructure project will go ahead, can try help businesses and vulnerable individuals, can do a whole bunch of government-y things, but they CANNOT sell something that is not THEIRS to sell, especially when they KNOW that more than 80% of the population are against it!! You can even agree on… exchanging territories with a neighboring country, so as to resolve a dispute, but you cannot sell a thousand-year-old historic NAME, for fuck’s sake!!! Anyway… Sorry to add that after your awful slip, I’ll find it extremely-extremely difficult to watch another video of yours. I’m always open to hearing arguments, I’ve gotten myself in trouble (with my own kind, Greeks) a couple of times because of my views on our maritime “issues” with Turkey, I’m more open minded that I could describe, I’m always the one urging people to put themselves in others’ shoes and look at the bigger picture taking a step back, but… “NM” and “Alexander the Great” CANNOT be in the same sentence. Simple as that.
I think he was talking about the history of the region specifically, not the people. He does right after specifically call it the Hellenistic period, implying it is Greek (which it is)
It's literally the Northern part of Macedonia. Going by NM clarifies that it makes no claims on the rest of the Macedonian region. The name change was a fine compromise imo and NM being in the EU and NATO makes Greece stronger, so you ought to want that. If anything the Greek government at that time needed to include an enforcement mechanism.
@tatjanavelkova5814 Come on, man. If we are applying that logic to claim that Greece has only existed for that long (I am not saying whether that is fair or not), then we should apply the same logic to NM. The region of Macedonia that encompasses both the nation of NM and Greek Macedonia has existed and been conceived of as a single area for some time, but that doesn't have a ton of bearing on two modern nation states, neither of which control the whole region nor even officially claim the entire region.
Engaging with historical retrospectives on North Macedonia requires acknowledging the impact of the 1934 Comintern resolution. It significantly influenced the (forceful) development of Macedonian national identity. Thoughts?
Ignoring the 1934 Comintern resolution and CCCP/Soviet history overlooks a key factor in shaping current North Macedonian politics. #BalkanHistory en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_of_the_Comintern_on_the_Macedonian_question
“[FYRO]Macedonian nationalism, as distinct from other South Slavic peoples is, moreover, a relatively new concept, introduced and encouraged by dictator Josip Tito, upon the creation of a separate Macedonian Republic within the Yugoslav federation in 1946. Prior to this, the area generally known as Vardarska banovina (the district of the Vardar river) was considered simply an extension of its southern Slavic neighbors, either Serbians to the north, or Bulgarians to the east. Slavs arrived in the Balkan Peninsula only in the 6th century AD, and therefore have nothing to do with the well-known classical kingdom of Macedonia, which dominated the rest of Greece, the Near East, Egypt and Persia under Alexander the Great in the 4th century BCE.” Encyclopedia of World Geography, Volume 1, 2006, p.564:
It was encouraged by Tito and the communist east more broadly for a variety of reasons, but he certainly didn't come up with Macedonianism. IMRO or some permutation (VMRO claims descent from IMRO) existed before communist yugoslavia.
@@professorquarter It existed from the late 19th - early 20th century only for a very limited number of educated elites who up until that point hadn't even created a concrete idea of what it really meant to be "macedonian". Only during Tito's rule "macedonism" reached the average person who according to numerous sources up until that point self identified as Bulgarian, Serb or Greek...
If North Macedonia decides to ditch the Prespa Agreement, some folks in Greece might take this as proof that the far-right was right all along-that the agreement really wasn't in Greece's best interest. This could give far-right groups a boost, especially in Northern Greece where these identity issues are hot-button topics. We'd likely see this issue pop up a lot in upcoming election campaigns, with far-right parties playing up nationalistic feelings to rally more support.
It’s not Far Right Greeks who have been screaming for years that the Prespa Agreement was a disgrace, it’s GREEKS that have been screaming so even before the agreement was signed. Every single poll the last two months before the signing, showed that more than 80% of Greeks were against it, because we felt we were selling off a hugely important part of our history, especially us up North, in Macedonia. The fact that the Far Right has indeed kept the issue at the top of their agenda ever since (I’m guessing mostly for political reasons, and not because they are… fantastic patriots), does not mean that it’s just a bunch of neo-Nazis who oppose the agreement and dream of seeing it annulled. That’s actually what disgusted me the most back in 2018; the government not only closed their ears to a whole country YELLING against the agreement, but they even went that far as to call all of us who were against it, “extremists”! “Extremists”!!!!! That’s the very definition of having to prove that you are not an elephant...
@@dibaskg After your logic, 80% of the Macedonians from North Macedonia were against the Prespa agreement too. Then we can call them extremist too. If both sides are unhappy, then the agreement must be good thing.
No one in macedonia wanted to change the name to north macedonia, how can you. Change your name when your not north macedonia but just macedonia, macedonians do not jave territorial claims of aegean macedonia as macedonia is in nato and proceeds to EU and is a friendly small country I've been there 2 times
Not a single person likes it. It is selling away Ellenic heritage and history. Trump should give them Washington ot New York if he wants these people in NATO.
Very well informed indeed. Two remarks only. 1. When the country was officially under the name FYROM, in all official documents of EU, UN and USA were referred to as "Macedonian", as opposed to today that is "North Macedonian". 2. The current government which voted against the Prespa agreement, never finalized the remaining aspects of the deal. You should have emphasized these more. It is very important for understanding both the importance of the agreement for Greece and today's North Macedonian reaction. The deal was a half win for both countries. Finally there were agreements for the Greek air force to patrol North Macedonian borders, a deal that was never applied from the current government of Mitsotakis.
@@pegasus5794 you seem to be mistaken, under the agreement, we get to keep the ethnicity/nationality as Macedonian, it is implied in the agreement itself that adjectives such as North Macedonian/N.Macedonian are a mistake and shouldn’t be used. Now if you ask me, the main part of the agreement is the “protection” of the Macedonian ethnicity’s right of self-declaration is broken worldwide, including in Greece(news articles having “North Macedonian”, even though it was agreed otherwise), then having bogus arguments over other articles is nonsense when the main issue is the increasing use of the adjective “North Macedonian”.
NM: They are just Bulgarians with an identity crisis with a 30% Albanian minority. Decedents of Slavs coming in the area on 6th century AD speaking Bulgarian (a slavic language), becoming part of Yugoslavia (Slavs as per name) claiming that they are decedents of Alexander the Great lived on 4th century BC spreading the Hellenic (ie Greek) civilization on the rest of the world of that time (1000 years before any Slav being there). Go figure. Greece despite being EU member, being a stronger country and having the (ancient) historical right on its side made a very painful and I would say unfair compromise. We are fed up with them! If they want to follow the path of the lowest level of Balkan politics they are free. Most likely the VMRO leaders are not just populists but also they may have personal interests... Russia tried hard for this deal not to happen and to avoid another ex soviet satellite falling into NATO. PS Something that was not expected from you: Big mistake / inaccuracy (or just bad phrasing??) at 2:20: The so called North Macedonia has nothing to do (even geographically) with the ancient Greek Ancient Kingdom of Macedonia
@@petar4968 Petar you are a Slav part of the Bulgarian nation. Be proud of that! Your grandfather or great grand father identified themselves as Bulgarians. Simply because you have identity crisis and you have being a victim of nationalistc and communist propaganda being part of Yugoslavia fearing a greater Bulgaria and identifying you as "macedonian" you can not steal the Greek identity of ancient macedonia. You have no correlation to it not even geographically. Native Americans (Indians) and (asian) Indians are both called Indians but it does not mean that they are related ! PS The Greek history does not start in 1912 ....
What are present day greeks? A combination of ethnic Albanians, Turks, Macedonians, Pomaks, Roma, Vlachs, Pakistani's, etc with Greek citizenship. When King Otto arrived in the village of Athens in the 1820's he only found ethnic Vlach and Albanians and said 'where are the greeks'? Most of the present day ethnic greeks in greek controlled Macedonia are post 1920's migrants from Turkey. There was no such thing as a 'ancient Greek Ancient Kingdom of Macedonia'. This is a figment of your imagination.
@@BillOCoy I guess that you are annoyed of the 3000+ year continuation of Greek civilization, language and dna. Go to any DNA company and see for yourself the dna of the modern greeks.
Good video and a lot of truth in it.. And also should be known that after the balkan wars the part of Macedonia that is taken by Greece was in the following decades permanently cleaned from the macedonians in it, and it was colonised by greeks from nowadays Turkye, and the parody is that nowadays greeks objects to accept that we are macedonians and they claim that the colonists are the right macedonians... They can tell what ever they want we know we are Macedonians and will remain so...
Very superficial analysis. You don't mention anywhere that only a century ago there was no Macedonian nation, but Bulgarians from the region of Macedonia, who after 1912 in the state of Serbo-Croats were forcibly reborn as "Macedonians"
Calling them Slavs and then correlating them to Alexander the Great is part of the problem. What kind of professor are you, exactly? Your claims are historically, linguistically and archaeologically false. Macedonias were and are Greek, by any definition of the word. Other comments in this thread also highlight the creation of North Macedonia and establish that it is unrelated to the ancient kingdom.
And, again, this is the whole problem. I didn’t say they were Greeks. I specifically said the Macedonians speak a Slavic language. I also noted Serb and Bulgarian rule. But if I didn’t include the bit about ancient Macedonia and Alexander I would leave people confused about why Greece was upset. More to the point, I guarantee that you have been furious that I was whitewashing the country’s Hellenistic heritage. This is the whole problem. You can’t win on this issue. Everyone will immediately see bias. I made this video to highlight that the new administration in Skopje is violating its agreement with Greece, and I just seem to be getting Greek angry that I tried to explain this issue in a way that outsiders would understand. Either North Macedonia has links with Alexander, and these should be explained, or it’s doesn’t, in which case people don’t underneath why Greece is unhappy.
@@JamesKerLindsay Are we going to completely ignore their signaling? If what you claim is true, then why do North Macedonians use the star of Vergina and Alexander the Great's imagery to promote their historical ties with their use of the word "Macedonia"? Have you perhaps considered any bias on your part? You don't have to be Greek to be reasonable. This is merely geohistorical appropriation akin to calling the Persian Gulf the "Arab Gulf". NM is a newly established country looking for an identity, that much is clear to everyone. I'm surprised that an academic would even suggest bias given the historical facts of the matter. North Macedonia seemingly wants to harken back to some abstract Hellenistic past for its benefit, without regard to the claim's utter lack of veracity. Hence, it's only natural for anyone familiar with the historical background to object such falsehoods. It's intellectually insulting to suggest anyone but the NMs have anything to gain by doing this. TL;DR: It's a matter of principle. You can't steal other people's stuff and call it your own PS: I'm not Greek
@@barc0deblankblank ''It's intellectually insulting to suggest anyone but the NMs have anything to gain by doing this. '' thank you, fully agree. Is he a professor or a propaganda minion on a misinformation campaign?
professor you have probably confused history northern Macedonia never had an empire ancient Macedonia was the empire which was Greek so don't say northern Macedonia again when you refer to the empire of filipos and Alexander the Great
*YOU'RE A LIAR. You deliberately omit the fact that Greece was found guilty by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) for breaching the Interim Accord (1995), by blocking the NATO accession of the former yugoslav republic of Macedonia in 2008. The country then filed a lawsuit against Greece before the ICJ and won the case, but the ICJ was unable to impose penaulties on Greece. According to the Interim Accord (1995), the then-Rep. of Macedonia agreed to remove an Ancient Macedonian symbol from its flag and allegedly irredentist clauses from its constitution, in order to apease Greece, while Greece agreed that it wouldn't block the Rep. of Macedonia from joining intl organizations so long as it used the appellation set out in the UN - former yugoslav republic of Macedonia. The R. of Macedonia respected this, but she was blocked by Greece anyway. Also, the idea for a separate macedonian identity emerged long before Socialist Yugoslavia - read about the IMRO's ideas for Independent Macedonia in the late 19th and early 20th c., about Krste Petkov Misirkov (1874 - 1926) etc.*
Greek Macedonia's history started thousands of years ago and not from Tito's time It is clear that your " Macedonia" is fabricated Your country has signed an agreement , respect your signature or face the consequences
2011 Sud vo HAG donese odluka : MAKEDONIJA e so IME MAKEDONIJA. 2018 Nikola Dimitrov stori krivic'no delo. minister nema ingerencii da menuva IME na MAKEDONIJA .
Amazing and insightful video, James! It’s amazing how something so trivial like a similar name for outsiders be a divisive and thorny topic for governments to even consider ending peace deals. But it is nevertheless understandable to a certain extent. I think North Macedonia will eventually have to accept the validity of the peace agreement while pushing their identity assertions to its limit given integration with EU is better in the long term compared to being isolated or even dependent on alternatives like China or Russia. Keep up the amazing work, James! Hope you’ll consider covering more on Southeast Asia in your list.
Imagine that you are a Slav, that you speak Slavic, that your name is Slavic, that you understand the Bulgarian language because it is the same, and yet you say that you are Macedonian
Imagine that you a Slav, that you speak Slavic, that your name is Slavic, that you understand the Bosnia/Croatian/Serbian/Montenegrin language because it is the same, and yet you say you are Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian/Montenegrin. Would you would say this to a Bosnian/Croat/Serb/Montenegrin?
@@JamesKerLindsayYou need to read a little more, these Slavs are claiming the be the descendants of the Macedonians which were and still are Hellenic. They should claim to be descendants of the ancestors, not the ancestors of another ethnic group.
Prof. Ker-Lindsay, I have been following your videos for a relatively long time now and I usually really appreciate your input. However, regarding this one, I have to express my objections to the way you framed the topic. The sentence "North Macedonia has an extraordinarily long and rich history" is, for a fact, incorrect. "The TERRITORY of North Macedonia has an extraordinarily long and rich history" is something completely different. I have seen how you respond to other comments and you are surprisingly hard in your stance, considering a person with your experience and knowledge should know better than to not pick his words extremely carefully when tackling a complex topic as this. The populations of both Greece and Bulgaria will never agree to recognize "North Macedonia" as what the so-called Macedonians imagine they are.
Thank you for the comment. Point well taken. I have slightly edited that section to remove the word "North" to avoid any confusion. Macedonia, as a region, has a long and rich history.
Thanks for the video professor. I think the good news is that the deal has been signed and the country’s name officially changed, so while politics and posturing continues, the largest and most obstructive issue has now been removed from the table. A couple of notes: • for clarity’s sake, in future videos about this topic it might be a good idea to start the history by saying “the region” (rather than “Macedonia”) has a long history”, avoiding any implication that the current political entity is related to past Macedonian polities, and perhaps as part of the history add that over time the region became majority Slavic-speaking, though with other significant minorities. • although known in international fora, the Olympics, etc as the FRYOM, the country’s official name was always simply the Republic of Macedonia, until the recent agreement that saw it renamed to Republic of North Macedonia Thanks as always for the video!
If Greece decides to call you Pro Jane would you go online and announce it? No? Why not? You are calling one country the name chosen for it by another country Greece. I'm just an onlooker and you people look ridiculous? Can you not see that? Greece has a lot of terrible social problems it should do something about that instead of bullying other countries. I prefer to respect the country and call it what IT chooses.
The problem is bigger than that. According to the "Treaty of Bucarest" - 1913, when Macedonia was unjustly and tragically divided between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia, it was proclaimed by that same Treaty that Macedonia's territory was to be "used" / to be in possesion by these 3 countries during 100 years. Once the 100 years passed, they are obliged to give the occupied lands back. Except that, in 2013, a year of the giving back the occupied lands, Greece and Bulgaria refused and since then they are creating problems to Macedonia, inventing the problem of the "name"....
Bukures't 1913 dogovor veli : po 100 godini Grcija vrak'a Egejska Makedonija. Bulgaria na MAKEDONIJA vrak'a Pirinska Makedonija. Srbija na MAKEDONIJA vrak'a Vardarska Makedonija .
@@christismystrength6521 There is no such specification in the Treaty of Bucharest. If you claim it otherwise, please provide the passage. I am Romanian by the way, and I have had access to the original version of the treaty. The treaty never even mentions the existence of a Macedonian nation.
1913 dogovor veli : po 100 godini Grcija vrak'a Egejska Makedonija. Bulgaria na MAKEDONIJA vrak'a Pirinska Makedonija. Srbija na MAKEDONIJA vrak'a Vardarska Makedonija .
By George Zarkadakis As a kid growing up in Greece in the 1970s, I had to learn not one, but three Greek languages. First, it was the demotic parlance of everyday life, the living words people exchanged at the marketplaces and in the streets. But at school, we were taught something different: It was called "katharevousa" - "cleansed" - *a language designed by 19th-century intellectuals* to purify demotic from the cornucopia of borrowed Turkish, Slavic and Latin words. Finally, we had to study ancient Greek, the language of our classical ancestors, the heroes of Marathon and Thermopylae. We were supposed to learn "The Iliad" and "The Odyssey" in the original, by heart, in case some time machine transported us back to Homeric times. As it happened, most of us managed to learn none of the three, ending up mixing them in one grammatically anarchic jargon that communicated mostly the confusion of our age.
North Macedonia is quite an interesting country, they are essentially Bulgarians that Serbians convinced into believing that they are ancient Greeks. Much of the claiming of ancient (Greek) Macedonian history only began under Yugoslav rule or independence. I guess it's the only way that the state could form an identity for its people as a nation, similar to Western Europe during the rise of state-sponsored nationalism over a century ago. Such a silly thing to threaten EU membership over too
Not exactly. The Serbs before 1945 were adamant in convincing them they were Serb (many were; Bulagrian and Serbian exist on the South Slavic language continuum and many villages in what is now Macedonia spoke Serbian, although most spoke Bulgarian). The communists in Yugoslavia were not Serb dominated and the idea of a seperate Macedonian identity was designed to weaken Serb influence within Yugoslavia by having another equal republic made from Serb territory like Montenegro. By seperating Montenergo and Macedonia (and Bosnia) from the Serbian political entity within Yugoslavia you went from a large political sudivision that massively overshadowed the Croats and Slovenes to six total republics you could have some kind of accord between. The Croats and Slovenes were dominated by the much larger Serb entity in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia which would have been untenable in a communist federation led by a non-serb. Keep in mind Tito was half Slovene half Croat.
As a Greek, it’s honestly kinda flattering how much they love and glorify Greek history despite claiming it’s not Greek whatsoever lol. I believe they are biggest victims here and I wish them all the best.
This is not a "naming dispute" but an identity dispute which manifests itself through the refusal to accept the new name. The identity of ethnic Macedonians claims continuity from the kingdom of Ancient Macedonia and rejects Greek claims over that heritage, which as you said is ridiculous as it was a Hellenistic state. The name solution was designed to disentangle and separate the identity from ancient Macedonia which rightfully belongs to Greece. Yet when you do your history lesson you start from ancient Macedonia meaning you trace continuity from Alexander the Great which is exactly what ethnic Macedonians do and is the source of the conflict.
The name game regarding FYROM has gone from absurd to almost obscene levels of duplicity and betrayal... First off, it's time to stop all these pathetic attempts to "re-write" history. Macedonia and Alexander's legacy was and always will be Greek, carved in ancient stone and marble for all the world to see and that NO AMOUNT of pathetic geo-political games can change - let alone erase.. The FORMER Yugoslav (so-called) "republic" was and, unless some common sense prevails, always will be a sad state of affairs. The main reason that the ridiculous "claim" by the bulgaro-skopjianovski leftovers of FYROM has not succeeded in hi-jacking the ancient Greek name of Macedonia is that, despite all the cynical and hypocritical "realpolitik" games going on in the region, there are REAL world issues and historical facts that cannot be avoided. This is why all the "angry demands" and "claims" by these hi-jackers of history which, when seen all together, only manage to contradict themselves or end up in "indignant" yet baseless and historically absurd "arguments" and fake statues, costumes and "symbols". But what is even more absurd and shameful is that any self respecting person or "organization" would give any of these claims any credence. It is also why the UN and EU are - in the very least - still insisting on a compromise on the name (which is far more than this fabricated mish-mash of a country deserves) as regrettably, it is deemed that such a settlement will serve other interests in the region. Greece though, for historical but more crucially future geo political reasons, should NOT compromise on the "new name" and how it is used. Given the current "attitude" in the FYROM, they should now even renounce this fraudulent "treaty". It remains a sad state of affairs when a bunch of bulgaro-skopjianovskis - that are mostly a left over from the Balkan wars and Tito's clumsy attempts of territorial gains and access to the Mediterranean sea - try to hijack the ancient Greek name of Macedonia in a pathetic attempt to give themselves a false "identity". Something which was clearly exposed by then US Secretary of State Edward R. Stettinius in 1944, stating in no uncertain terms that: "This (US) government considers talk of Macedonian “nation,” Macedonian “fatherland,” or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece." This reality remains even if there has been a shift in some quarters of crude US "policy" in the region. Subsequently, this sad and latest episode of these displaced Bulgarians - who also have to deal with a large Albanian minority with their own agendas - is more a case of 'the mouse that roared' (with the cynical "support" of those with rather devious agendas in the region) than a case of legitimate "claims" to any so-called "ethnic" identity. Slavs, by the way, did not even arrive in the region until AFTER 600AD and - as their first 'president' Gligorov rightly said - have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Alexander and Macedonia! Further more it should also be made clear that even Bulgaria - despite it's past and present agendas - doesn't recognize the existence of "slavo-macedonians" in the so-called republic!!! - quite rightly considering all FYROM "skopjianovskis" as Bulgarians. On the other hand, the heritage, cities and monuments of Alexander were, are and always will be GREEK, carved in ancient stone and marble that no devious or pathetic attempts to re-write history - or any brown nosing those who indulge in so-called "great games" in the region - can change, let alone erase. If the "supporters" of the FYROM genuinely want a solution to the serious problems and stability of this "country" and the Balkans, it is time to put a stop to this nonsense and deal with the realities of not only the region but also the very serious and very REAL WORLD social-economic and environmental problems that we ALL have to face in THIS century. Just look at the fracking hell of a mess the ponzi/casino "economies" of the so-called "united" states of america and king-CONNED-om are in - AGAIN!!! Given the relentless and ever increasing climatic disasters, it would also be wise to remember that Mother Nature does NOT do "bail outs" or "quantitative easing"...
Northern Greece is a territory gifted to the Greek state by the British Empire and the French at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century, The same powers helped Greece retain it after WW2. All in an effort to weaken Turkey and diminish Russia's influence in the region. How many thousands of Macedonians were forced to flee the territory that is now Northern Greece? Greek refugees from Asia Minor were settled there in their place.
If these guys are so obsessed with claiming the heritage of Alexander and ancient Macedonia then they should just stop speaking Slavic and adopt Greek, they are only ridiculing themselves by their weird claims.
It's quite important to mention that when you talk about "the history of Macedonia", it means the history of the region Macedonia (not the country), which includes the territories in North Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece, potentially in Serbia and Albania as well. Furthermore, President Gordana instead of using "President of the Republic of North Macedonia", she said: "President of Macedonia", which is kinda concerning too.
Just a few corrections. The new Macedonian president signed the Presidential oath with the formal new name the 'Republic of North Macedonia'. However, she verbally didn't say 'Republic of North Macedonia' when repeating the oath. Instead, she just said Macedonia instead of 'Republic of North Macedonia'. It was the common practice of previous President Pendarovski to verbally say either Macedonia or North Macedonia and Greece never complained. There is nothing wrong with this. It's like a politician from the United States saying America instead of the United States of America or a British politician saying Britain instead of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. This is just a storm in a tea cup, just another Greek politician being a typical drama queen ahead of elections. You forgot to mention that after the name was changed in the parliament contrary to the will of the opinion as expressed in the referendum, there was a veto by France to stop the opening of EU negotiations with Macedonia. The French then found another country to do their dirty work in Bulgaria. The Russian supported Bulgarian President was happy to oblige by carrying out his Russian and French orders.
Thanks. I did in fact explicitly cover the referendum and noted that it failed to receive the required threshold. As for the name, I accept that people may make mistakes occasionally. It happens. And they may even use a shorthand. Britain is wrong, it should be the United Kingdom, but many politicians use it. But the new president was making a very clear political point at a crucial moment. She knew exactly what she was doing and the effects that it would have. It would be as if a new King used Britain in his coronation after having been given the words United Kingdom to say. This would send out a very clear and powerful message.
@@JamesKerLindsay Yes, you mentioned the referendum. You didn't mention that following the name change, France was the first country to veto the start of Macedonia's EU negotiations. You only mentioned Bulgaria's veto, which followed the French veto. The real problem for Greece wasn't not the name, the problem was that an independent Macedonian state might start pushing for the minority rights of the ethnic Macedonians in Greece. Konstantinos Mitsotakis (the father of the current greek PM) said that he 'doesn't have a problem with the name but doesn't want to create a second minority problem in Greece' (he considered the ethnic Turks to be the first minority problem).
@@Stefan_Mileski There will never be a minority issue. The majority of Slav-speakers in Greece descend from Patriarchists who supported the Greek cause over the Bulgarian cause. The Rainbow Party that claims to represent this so-called minority has never participated in a Greek national election, and it's no accident that the party's founder was educated in Belgrade during the communist era. The idea of Greece recognizing a Macedonian minority within a Macedonian majority is as ridiculous as it sounds, and no outside power will ever attempt to impose that on Greece. A few supporters in a handful of Florina villages (a very tiny portion of Macedonia) can get Rainbow funding from some lunatics in Canada and Australia, but that's about it.
The so called Greeks that live in today’s Greek Macedonia are not native to this region. After the greek civil war they were brought from asia minor and have displaced the native macedonians, who were banished by the greek state. Also, they stole their properties. This is the main reason why Greece is so vocal abot this seemingly nonsensical issue. They don’t want you to find out the truth. It has nothing to do with whether we are descendents of the ancient macedonian kingdom. I still have relatives in agean macedonia and hopefully the truth will come to light soner than later
In the 1800s the greek orthodox church hellenized a lot of vlach, albanians and macedonians into "greeks". After the balkan wars and the greek civil war they also assimilitated and hellenized macedonians in aegean macedonia. They had to import christian turks from turkey and place these "greeks" in aegean macedonia to make it "greek". What a joke that people believe modern greeks are direct descendats of ancient greeks. The romanians, armenians and egyptian coptics have more in commen than ancient greeks than "modern" greeks
Hahaha you are a little bit confused.... Greek civil war 1945-1949. The Greek populations that you mention arrived in the region from Asia Minor in 1922! Please study more!!
I still can't understand why a Slavic people want to adapt a non-Slavic name and its heritage. There is no linguistic nor historic link there. As a Greek, I wouldn't like my country to be called South Bulgaria or, even worst, just Bulgaria. Anyway, a deal was struck in good faith and I thought it was behind us. Now instead of putting their energy into growth and prosperity, they latch on an identity that isn't theirs in a self-destructive manner...
Wr haven't addopted anything. It's always been our name. I was born in 1981 and ever since I can remember the name of the country has been Macedonia, tha language was macedonian and we've all benn Macedonians. The same is true about my parents who were born in the 1950s. Nobody chooses/adopts their name. It's something that is inherited frome our ancestors. Or maybe you'd like to explain how your ancestors changed their name from Romei to Helleni in late 18th century?
I am Macedonian, and I can answer you that question. Why is your name Gnazlis? (or whatever your real name is), is it because you wanted to adapt something? No, it is because you were given that name far earlier than you could ever choose. Same thing with Macedonia. Our name comes from our land. And our land has been called Macedonia, for over 2000+ years. And we are very proud of our Slavic side, we conquered all of Europe.
1)Alexander the Great participated in the ancient Olympics, you had to be Greek to do this. 2) He was tutored by Aristotle (another Greek Macedonian) in Greek. 3) The House of Macedon claimed to be descendants of the Argead Dynasty 4) Macedonians had Greek names and spoke a dialect of Greek, spread Greek culture NOT slavic or bulgarian.. All of you who claim the Ancient Macedonians were anything but Greek make HOLLOW and TRIVIAL claims!
".. do not forget Greece, Alexander ..It was for her sake that you launched your whole expedition, to add Asia to Greece .." Arrian [Anabasis of Alexander 4.11.7] «.. τῆς Ἑλλάδος μεμνῆσθαί σε ἀξιῶ, ὦ Αλέξανδρε ἧς ἕνεκα ὁ πᾶς στόλος σοι ἐγένετο, προσθεῖναι τὴν Ἀσίαν τῇ Ἑλλάδι ..» Ἀρριανός [Ἀλεξάνδρου Ἀνάβασις 4.11.7]
While your previous anti-Bulgarian video could potentially be construed as a semi-ignorant attempt at presenting a "balanced" view on the issue, this one makes your support for blatant, ultranationalistic historical revisionism quite clear. But no matter how much propagandists might try to change it, the international academic community is also quite clear. "Macedonia was also an attempt at a multicultural society. Here the fragments are just about holding together, although the cement that binds them is an unreliable mixture of propaganda and myth. The Macedonian language has been created, some rather misty history involving Tsar Samuel, probably a Bulgarian, and Alexander the Great, almost certainly a Greek, has been invented, and the name Macedonia has been adopted. Do we destroy these myths or live with them? Apparently these radical Slavic factions decided to live with their myths and lies for the constant amusement of the rest of the world!..." T.J. Winnifrith, Shattered Eagles, Balkan Fragments, Duckworth, 1995
Well at least something seems to have brought the Greeks and Bulgarians together. And my previous video wasn’t in fact anti-Bulgarian. I say in all honesty that some of my best friends are Bulgarian. (No, really! 🙂) But it did highlight the utterly bizarre policies being followed by Bulgaria. If the Greek position was seen as vindictive, then the Bulgarian one is seen as incomprehensible. I still laugh at the fact that I had 6000 Bulgarian screaming abuse when I said that they didn’t know why exactly they were angry at the Macedonians and replying that they knew exactly what the problem was - only to get 6000 different answers. You can’t make that stuff up. I just put it down to the fact that Bulgarian nationalists don’t get let out of their box that often. The Serb, Albanian, Greek, Macedonian, and Turkish ones do. But not the Bulgarians. They all seemed so delighted to finally get their chance to rant at some ‘ignorant foreigner’ who didn’t understand them, or their history, or their culture. Sadly, you guys don’t get enough attention. But I was just glad to help. 😀
@@JamesKerLindsay Well both sides are right in their own version of events. The Greek side is right that FYROM, or North Macedonia, is historically appropriating personalities and aspects of history that belong to the ancient Hellenic people, of which modern Greeks are descended from. On the Bulgarian side, it is true that so called Macedonian language is a dialectical variation of Bulgarian that is almost 100% mutually intelligible. The difference between North Macedonian language and Bulgarian language is the same as Moldavian and Romanian language. The insistence that they are different though is a result of decades or external interference, social and cultural engineering. Just as the Tsarist and then the Soviets came up with the idea of a Moldovan nation and language, distinct from Romanian in an effort to divide and conquer, so did the Serbs and later Tito with the so called Macedonians of FYROM. Modern day FYROM, on North Macedonia is the result of a lie being repeated tens of thousands of times, or millions of times, until people accepted it to be the truth. And when generations are born and educated to accept a lie as truth and allow it to shape their own identity as a nation, then I can understand why it is hard to face reality. But just because you accept to be deceived by a lie, doesn't mean that the rest have to accept these deception to be forced upon them.
Why did this Italian linguist write for the existence of the Macedonian language 500 years ago 1539 Theseus Ambrogio Albonese (1469-1540/41) is an Italian humanist from the period of the Italian Renaissance, of Christian (Catholic) and a harbinger of Orientalism. His most important work is the book Chaldaicam linguam, Syriacam, atque Armenicam, & decem alias linguas. Published in 1539, in which the church psalms are translated from several languages, and the languages of the time and the alphabet used by the nations as a means of written communication are noted. , Syrian Arabic, Hebrew... they also include Macedonian, which is listed as a separate language different from Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian* *You can freely find that book of his in the original on the net*
“[FYRO]Macedonian nationalism, as distinct from other South Slavic peoples is, moreover, a relatively new concept, introduced and encouraged by dictator Josip Tito, upon the creation of a separate Macedonian Republic within the Yugoslav federation in 1946. Prior to this, the area generally known as Vardarska banovina (the district of the Vardar river) was considered simply an extension of its southern Slavic neighbors, either Serbians to the north, or Bulgarians to the east. Slavs arrived in the Balkan Peninsula only in the 6th century AD, and therefore have nothing to do with the well-known classical kingdom of Macedonia, which dominated the rest of Greece, the Near East, Egypt and Persia under Alexander the Great in the 4th century BCE.” Encyclopedia of World Geography, Volume 1, 2006, p.564
@@Gotze.Delchev.Reborn "Until the late nineteenth century both outside observers and those Bulgaro-Macedonians who had an ethnic consciousness believed that their group, which is NOW two separate nationalities, comprised a SINGLE people, THE BULGARIANS. Thus the reader should IGNORE references to ethnic Macedonians in the Middle Ages which appear in some modern works. In the Middle Ages and into the nineteenth century, the term ‘Macedonian’ was used ENTIRELY in reference to a geographical region. Anyone who lived within its confines, regardless of nationality could be called a Macedonian." The Early Medieval Balkans: a critical survey from the sixth to the late twelfth century By John Van Antwerp Fine, Page 37
The first constetution of Greece, 1827. A Greek is a Christian. ??? -> 4. Provinces of Greece are all those that were taken and will be taken by weapons against the Ottoman Dynasty. 1) -> 6. Greeks are: 2) -> a. All those indigenous people of the Greek State who believe in Christ. 3) -> b. All those, believers in Christ, who under the Ottoman slavery, came or they will come to the Greek State to struggle or to reside in it. 4) -> e. All those aliens, who come and enrol as citizens. NOTE: To become a Greek, it was enough to be a Christian! So regardless if you are a Albanian, Turk, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Gypsy or Vlach, you are a Greek if you were a Christian and born in the Greek state. So what makes them the 'direct decendents of the ancient Hellens?'
@@GreatMK.Forever Said me, whose ancestors destroyed most of your Bulgarian VMRO ancestors in the Florina area and sent the rest of them to majka Bulgaria during the population exchange. Also, Koine didn't exist in the 19th century. It was modern Greek by them. Nice try, Srbomanche.
Professor, I’m struggling to understand the part of the video that is pointing out the Roman territory of Macedonia also included Ancient Macedonian history beforehand. Is this to point out why modern Macedonians should want uphold the Prespa in some way? Or is this to show people (especially many Greeks) that North Macedonia does somewhat have a connection to the ancient kingdom so they should stop being so stubborn about the name? Or maybe you’re just merely informing us the historical background so people understand where the name dispute stems from, and calling it “rich” in an effort to satisfy both sides? I genuinely don’t know.
It is to show why Greece is unhappy about the appropriation of Greek history. Frankly, if I hadn’t included it, there would have been a lot of angry Greek viewers arguing that I had whitewashed the Greek heritage of Macedonia. It is a no win situation. And I think it possible to say that Macedonia, however defined, has a very rich history - a highly contentious rich history. That’s the problem.
@@JamesKerLindsay Thank you. That makes sense. I think because of the way your video transitioned from North Macedonia to the Macedonian territory, a lot of people are completely misinterpreting this part as you stating something like “the unique Hellenistic history of the modern country of North Macedonia is where the history of Alexander/Macedon belongs (not really Greece despite being Hellenic)”. I believe this misunderstanding is 10 times more likely to get rise out of Greek viewers, history buffs, etc. than whitewashing allegations.
You said that ancient Macedonia is Hellenic and that people of North Macedonia speak Slavic language. As a diplomat do you acknowledge the propaganda people of North Macedonia use in order to usurp the history of Greek people? That propaganda is Russian creation who wanted through panslavism to control the ports of original Macedonia and make a fleet to confront western powers. What do you know about all that? Have you studied it? And what do you think is the best solution nowadays?
So, why was Greece so determined to ensure that the Hellenistic era was recognised under the agreement? The territorial history of every modern country stretches back long before the country existed. This should be beyond contestation. Indeed, by your logic, Greece has no claim to its ancient history. I readily accept the Roman heritage of Britain without claiming that Britain was Rome. Let’s not be so unduly touchy about all this. The country that is North Macedonia has a long history. North Macedonia is a new country.
indeed. And I’m not disputing or undermining that. I specifically said that the modern Macedonians speak a Slavic language. It’s just sad that a lot of commenters seem to want to make inferences that simply weren’t there! This issue really does bring out the very worst in some Greeks. Το λέω ως κάποιος που έχει ζήσει στην Ελλάδα και μιλάει ελληνικά!
Ethic Macedonians were Greeks, hence following Alexander's conquest the Hellenistic period began. North Macedonians are ethnic Bulgarians , Albanians, and Gypsy. They have zero connection to the original Macedonians.
As much as the Prespa Agreement hurt, a large majority of Macedonians were ready to accept it and move on with their path to the EU. Opinions towards Greece also started getting better. However, the biggest problem in this case is not Greece but Bulgaria. After making one of the hardest decisions, the country and its people were faced with yet another blockade entirely based on Bulgaria's nationalistic claims to Macedonia, similar to those of Russia when it comes to Ukraine. The EU for some reason decided to ignore the Copenhagen Criteria and fully supported Bulgaria. For Macedonians this was extremely threatening as Bulgaria's claims touch on the country's sovereignty, the right of self-determination of the nation, as well as the existence of a language that is internationally recognized by the UN. This made EU support in the country plummet to an all time low and now most of the people in the country don't see the EU as the promised union that shares European values of democracy and fundamental rights. Sadly, this took a toll on the Prespa agreement as EU membership is no longer seen as a reality for the country.
So in other words, you somewhat, somehow settled your dispute with Greece, a dispute which lasted for 30+ years, and then because Bulgaria was not as open to negotiating, and this action slowed down all progress towards EU integration, you decided to say to Greece: screw you! I don’t care about Prespa, I will go back to what I did before, which then pissed off Greece, and has the potential to ruin every aspect of good relations that has been trying to be built in the past 6 years. I honestly don’t get it. Just settle your disputes with the Bulgarians. You had the golden opportunity to finally make a friend in your neighbourhood and now you’ll go back to another era of isolation
@@tm312th sheep will never have golden oppertunities to make friends with wolves. Both Bulgaria and Greece have a long history of negating our very existance, and what is happening in the last 30 years is a replay of actions that took place in the late 19th and early 20th centry. We are very weary of both Greeks and Bulgarians.
@@Petelko2695 And I don’t blame them, judging by your country’s actions. Neither of them laid claims on your lands however. I’m sure if you stop appropriating their history and claiming parts of their soil as yours, they will happily get along with you. Don’t forget that Greece and Bulgaria were staunch enemies in the past, but were able to bury the hatchet and soon the won’t even be border control between them.
@@tm312th in fact, they do claim our land. Bulgaria claims Macedonia, and has occupied it twice, and committed terrible war crimes in the process. The last occupation in WWII is within our living memory. The narrative has always been that Macedonians are Bulgarians, and that argument has been the basis for pursuing its imperialist policies towards Macedonia. Russian does the same thing in Ukraine at the moment, fueled by the same narrative, that Ukrainians are Russians in delusion. In 1913, Greece occupied the lion's share of Macedonia, a region that never had a Greek majority. Greece has spent the last 100 years assimilating its Macedonian Slavic population by force. The ones that would not assimilate have been expelled after the Greek Civil War in 1949. A good portion of the current population of The Republic of Macedonia has roots and relatives in Aegean Macedonia. These refugees never got the chance to reclaim the property that was taken away from them. Greece does not want to allow a country called Macedonia to prosper on its border, as it fears that what little remains of Macedonian Slavic identity in Greece, might start identifying with this neighboring country. Probably there is no chance of this happening, as the assimilation is all but complete by now, but the Greek public is stuck with this ludicrous name position, and any party in government that tries to abandon it, is considered to be doing national treason. So what are the hostile actions that our country has taken? Claiming a neighboring country's territory? Please, this is a common sport in the Balkans. Just google the following terms Greater Albania Bulgaria on three seas Megali Idea Greater Serbia Also, I guess the next sin would be waving the 16 pointed sun flag, a symbol that is found throughout Macedonia, in archeological sites and on church frescoes. Bonus song: ua-cam.com/video/egPKUVJzvEU/v-deo.html If you can't understand Bulgarian, the verse goes: If somebody says that Bulgaria is small, there are 8 more parts that would make it whole Sure, there are wild Macedonian claims that have no basis in reality, but if you knew the surroundings that we live in, you would come to learn that we are sheep among wolves.
This "professor" doesn't know anything about history. Ancient Macedonia was Greek. The current North Macedonians have literally nothing to do with the ancient GREEK Macedonia. You see now why greeks are upset ? The North Macedonians are trying to appropriate history that isn't theirs . If you are really a professor you should know this and mention it in your video more clearly.
Did you actually watch the video? Perhaps you missed the part at the start when I explicitly said that the Macedonians in Macedonia speak a South Slavic language. You may also have missed the bit when I said that the area came under Serb and Bulgarian (Slavic) rule, and that the Prespa agreement acknowledges the country’s Hellenistic and Slavic heritage. It is always really irritating when a viewer jumps in and condemn something I say because it isn’t said *exactly* as they want it to be said. As for not knowing this issue, I know it as well as any foreigner can. Aside from specialising in Southeast Europe, I lived in Greece and have been a visiting scholar at the main university in North Macedonia. I am very fond of both countries, and was glad that they had reached a sensible conclusion to the issue, or so it seemed. You may put my qualifications in quotation marks, but I have earned them. But perhaps you’d like to tell us all your real name and your qualifications to discuss all this in a fair and objective manner? If you have any publications on the matter, I’d be happy to read them. :-)
Totally agree with you. Someone who has studied even basic history in his entire life he knows all these. The most disappointing for me is that I came here to hear a professor and his scientifical aspects on an important historic topic, and I heard a man spreading propaganda. Macedonia is Greek.
@@JamesKerLindsay We are not Greek nationalists as I have read in a comment you have done here. We are Greeks and we do not admit the others to play with our intelligence and our written history. We jave not bothered anyone but we dont accept the others to bother us. The fact that we react for our country's history, does not make as nationalists. Your comment was offensive.
The only purpose of the Prespes agreement was to enter Northern Monkeydonia into NATO and was fostered by the U.S and by Germany. It was never meant to be a real solution to the problem . They just kicked the can forward! Now its time for the next episode, however the job is done since N.M is part of NATO.
We been Occupant for over 500 years from Turkey 🇹🇷 , Greece🇬🇷 , Serbia🇷🇸 and Albania🇦🇱. It’s about ime to leave us alone and give as a freedom . We are Original Macedonians🇲🇰and we want are Origimal name and language 🇲🇰❤️🙏🙏
To the uninitiated, looking at this issue for the first time, it seems audacious for one country (or several) to require another country to change its name! On pain of not acceding to the EU or other associations.
Hey dude, what are you talking about: “North Macedonians are speaking south Slavic language”!?!? The language is Bulgarian, the name of the country is Greek. This country is Soviet communist creation. But “south Slavic language…” Sure, USA and Canada are speaking Western European language, how about that?
The SFRY is not Soviet. Macedonia was given its modern identity by Lazar Kolisevski, member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia and the partisans that liberated Yugoslavia from Nazi filth.
You would think that North Macedonia, a small landlocked state needing development, would do everything possible to reasonably get along with and integrate with neighbors.
It is interesting how, in another video, you criticised Bulgaria for her veto while neglecting the fact that the Prespa Treaty is not the only treaty of N Macedonia. In 2017, N Macedonia and Bulgaria signed Treaty for agreement and friendship. N Macedonia agreed to form a joint committee with Bulgaria to resolve the language, historical and identity issues. N Macedonia agreed to equalize the rights of ethnic Bulgarians with the other minorities in N Macedonia by including Bulgarians in Article 7 of its Constitution. Note: this article includes Macedonians, Albanians, Serbs, Wallachians, Turks and Bosniaks. See ? Even the 800 Bosniaks are mentioned. But in Skopje they still pretend as if not even a single Bulgarian lives there. Now I hope that the author of this video will somehow understand Bulgaria and her position. It is rather hypocritical to support Greece and criticise Bulgaria on holding the same position on the same problems - it is not about the name. The name is just a pretext for further territorial claims, theft of history and chauvinism.
Not really. The Greek position is understandable to outsiders - even if they disagree. The Bulgarian position is utterly incomprehensible - even to Bulgarians.
@@JamesKerLindsay Not really. The Bulgarian position is understandable for all Bulgarians. And I do not refer to the wild, raw nationalism. Even the pragmatic, modern way of thinking presumes equality of human rights, lack of territorial demands, non-discrimination by ethnicity, etc. Western people, most of them, don't even know that Macedonia is a geographical region with 3 parts located in 3 different countries. Western people don't even know that N Macedonians call Aegean and Pirin Macedonia "temporarily occupied". The avoudance of "North" is because N Macedonians claim that all of Macedonia is theirs. If Greece has the right to stand for its Aegean part - why not Bulgaria for its one ??? Macedonians claim and make demands regarding "minorities" in all neighboring countries. But they refuse to give equal right of Bulgarians in N Macedonia to thise of 6 other minorities. Western people know about the Prespa Treaty. How many Western people know about the Treaty for agreement and friendship ? Western people know about Alexander, Aristotle, Homer,, etc. But most Western people know almost nothing about Bulgaria. I agree that from your point of view, Bulgarian position is "not understandable". But your claim that even Bulgarians don't understand it, is absurd. Personally, I am against the veto. I want to see N Macedonia in the EU. But EU has common rulrs and valurs. Lack of territorial demands, equal rights to all minorities, respect towards the other member states - N Macedonia showed that it is not reafy to share those values.
@milencenov6421 Thanks. But when I made the video, I said that the Bulgarians didn’t really understand why they were angry. I had thousands of comments saying they knew exactly why they were angry, only to get a different answer from each one! It’s a bit like Brexit. Everyone who voted the leave said they knew exactly what they were voting for, except that’s it’s now clear that each person had their own reason. This is the way with nationalism. And I think it is depressing how Bulgaria, with all the problems it has. Fixates on this trivial issue (whatever it is). Really, in the grand scheme of things, it is utterly unimportant.
@JamesKerLindsay I like debating with highly educated and knowledgeable people because they usually write in a very logical and understandable manner. I'm referring to you, obviously :) You wrote "in the grand scheme"... Yes, but we are a small country. And it is very difficult to survive among Great Powers, each of them with its own "grand scheme". See... 2 million of today's 7 million Bulgarian population are children and grandchildren of refugees from Macedonia. City quarters and even entire towns have all their streets named after Macedonian towns, lakes, mountains. The VMORO heroes are also commemorated. This is not because of nationalism or chauvinism, but because people who built the houses there gave street names according to their birthplaces or the heroes who defended them. It is difficult to say, "Hey, forget your birthplace and move on. Forget your past and your relatives". But this is the general train of thought. There are, of course, variations and fluctuations. For example, the most recent political joke is: "Bulgarians don't want to stay in the EU, but also don't want to see Macedonians accepted there". :)
@@milencenov6421What is that Bsht. What you wrote is 99% lies. In the agreement with Bulgaria, there was neither the issue of language nor the issue of the Bulgarian minority (according to the latest census, there are about 3,500 Bulgarians in Macedonia - a strong figure) and all other lies. Instead of blocking, it would be better to implement the 12 or more judgments of the Court of of human rights in Strasbourg, which the Macedonians in Eastern Bulgaria (Pirinska Macedonia) received.
I m proud Macedonian, my DNA is J2a which means that my ancestors lived in Macedonia forever. My parents and grandparents are from Ohrid, Republic of Macedonia and we have nothing common with Greeks and Bulgarians. Long live Macedonia !!!
Yes, this is why you watch Bulgarian videos, comment and understand everything and politicians and TV interviews with no translators. Yugoslav propaganda as usual...
"...In human genetics, Haplogroup J-M172 or J2 [Phylogenetics 1] is a Y-chromosome haplogroup which is a subclade (branch) of haplogroup J-M304. [Phylogenetics 2] Haplogroup J-M172 is common in modern populations in Western Asia, Central Asia, South Asia, Southern Europe, Northwestern Iran and North Africa. It is thought that J-M172 may have originated between the Caucasus, Anatolia and/or Western Iran.[9][10]...".
Odd question. As it happens, I come from a country where various Anglo-Saxon invaders now call themselves Britons. Should my Celtic side be angry at my Anglo-Norman side for this blatant cultural appropriation. Help!
Considering the amount of resistance to the deal from both sides, it seems to be a good deal actually. There is a sayng in germany: A good deal is a deal where both sides are equally unhappy.
Thank you for doing this video. Here are my 2 cents as a person that has been under the direct influence by this (and much more other) issue. I will try to be objective as possible and I am always open to a debate and an intelligent discussion. First and foremost this is not the first breach of the agreement. According to the Prespa agreement the contry's name is officially North Macedonia, erga omnes, since there were proposals that the country uses one name of foreign policies and another for internal. Now the nationality of the population is Macedonian, not North Macedonian and this is where the agreement is breached the most, since the population tends to be addressed as North Macedonian. Of course my opinion was that this was a very smart move from the Greek diplomacy when they were making their concessions, understanding that a mistake like this will most probably happen, since for most countries like Northern Ireland, North Korea, the natonalities and languages still include the corresponding adjestives. The majority of the current population, Macedonians, are predominantly Slavic and no they are not Bulgarians, in fact genetically they resemble more to the Serbs than the Bulgarians. Only the super stubborn and "illiterate" part of them think they are the direct decendents of Alexander The Great, and ignore the fact that on that region throughout history there were constant wars and migrations, from Ancient Macedonians and Ancient Greeks to Slavs, Celtcs, Avars, Pechenegs, Germanic, Nordic, Norman, Anglo Saxon, Turkic (even Catalan) people and god knows what else. But the real question is what about the current population that lives in todays Greece? What do they have in common with the Ancient Macedonians and Alexander and do they have the right to monopolize the name Macedonia/Macedonian? I don't want to make this an essay, but I will just ask one question, Alexander the Great and a lot of the Ancient Macedonians was said to be fair haired. Walk around the streets of todays Thessaloniki and Athens and count the number of people with fair hair. Normal and civilzed people that understand that the true meaning of improving todays society is by learning from history and focusing on the future by uniting in science and knowledge, reach an agreement and move forward improving their bilateral relations. Do the Germans or Italians claim Otto The Great only for themselves? And that is only one of the countless examples that the Dutch, the French, the Brits, the Spanish could do exactly how its currently done by some of the countries in the Balkan region. On the other hand stubborn fools hold to an idiotic thing like their last straw of hope for some kind of meaning. I can talk for days and months about this subject and write an essay, but I don't think people will read it so just wanted to point out some short notes.
@@EllasSagapo I can assure you that not a single person with an IQ higher than a room temperature, has any issue with Greece naming its region Macedonia, and also 100+ countries didn't have anything against the country having the same name Macedonia. But Greece and a few other European countries did, hence the question topic of monopolization. If it did not hold, then the country would've remained Macedonia and the region as well, and everyone lives happily ever after. It is very important to distinguish the term province from an actual socialist republic, and that's what it was in ex-Yugoslavia. Macedonia was of one of the six republics under the federation of Yugoslavia. Which also brings to attention another question, why did Greece didn't complain about it back then, but started to complain afterwards? Could it be because they weren't militarily and economically as powerful as Yugoslavia and couldn't really pressure them?
@@ristovskiv When the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was founded in 1945, Greece had the Second World War behind it and the equally bloody civil war ahead of it. How could the Greek government have resisted Tito's decision to create a province called Macedonia?
Thanks. But this wasn’t exactly the deal. The deal was that Greece would lift its objections. No country can join without letting the conditions. But you’re right in that there was an expectation that it could follow the process fairly smoothly. That commitment was broken by Bulgaria.
2:20 (...) This Hellenistic period lasted(...). *Hellenistic* period. As in the word used by modern Greeks to describe themselves. And you claim that the country named North Macedonia, who are slavs and speak a bulgarian dialect are related to Alexander. Respectfully professor, you don't know what you're talking about.
It is possible these days. If a man can identify as a women and a woman as a man. Then there is no problem with a Slav to claim ancient Greek identity. The word Greek and Greece is a Roman invention. Greeks have always call themselves Hellenic. Alexandros was Hellenic and spoke Hellenica (Greek). In fact to those who are knowledgeable in ancient history the Macedonian tribe of Greeks (Hellines) , originaly came from Argos in South Greece and moved to this area later.
The Prespa Agreement between Greece and Macedonia is illegal because the Referendum they conducted was not successful and was not signed by the President of the Republic of Macedonia.
2:20 What was that? North Macedonia is by no means related to the ancient kingdom, whose territory is almost entirely in Greece today. The territory was called Paeonia, a different kingdom. North Macedonia is not related geographically, ethnically, linguistically, or culturally to ancient Macedonia. It's very unfortunate that you made this mistake.
Actually, genetic tests from North Macedonians prove that they have a lot of Greek DNA.
MAKEDONIJA 25 CENTURIES IN SOUTH EVROPA ! ! ! ! !
Mostly yes as a Macedonian I agree I'm Albanian , but I can argue that the territorial landmark is still the same and that won't change no matter what tricks Greece pulls. Look at the map of Treaty of Bucharest, all of that was ottoman empire territory split with the peace agreement still nobody is happy about it. In a lot of north cities of Greece they speak Macedonian. The people lived there longer than 1913.
Please google a map of ancient Macedonia before commenting hard like this.
Macedonia does actually overlap with ancient Macedonia. Along with this slavic Macedonians do have slavic admixture they also have greek ancestry. I mean could the same not be said about Egypt and Syria where the majority of people are Arabs with little cultural continuity to the historic civilizations? At least slavic Macedonians claim ancient Macedonia as part of its cultural heritage.
@@billzhang8628You don’t understand. They claim to be Macedonians & that Macedonians NEVER had anything to do with Greeks. That is FALSE.
How exactly is North Macedonia related to the Ancient kingdom? Linguistically? Culturally? Geographically? It doesn’t seem like a helpful or even remotely accurate narrative to be spreading. Even the prespa agreement that both countries agreed on explicitly states that North Macededonia has no relation to the ancient Hellenic civilization.
I’m not sure why trying to break that territorial link is helpful or in Greece’s best interests either. The Prespa Agreement explicitly found a suitable compromise to both positions. It recognised the territory as the land of Alexander the Great, but also emphasises that the country’s present heritage is predominantly Slavic.
@@JamesKerLindsay "The so-called Republic of 'Macedonia' [FYROM] is located in what was ancient PAEONIA."
Paul Cartledge, University of Cambridge, UK
@@JamesKerLindsay You are right professor, but the people of that country still claim an ancient identity. It is everywhere in the social media, people from Skople claim everything. So, the "Slavic identity" remained in a paper inside a drawer.
As for Macedonia, the original ancient Kingdom was always a small kingdom next to Thessaly, under Mount Olympus. The rest territory is expansions, and Skopje lay in Peonia which Phillip invaded, but the most popular map is that of the Roman province of Macedonia which include Skopje, and there is the problem.
It is the same area of the original Macedonian kingdom
@@martingelevski9509 "Modern slavs, both Macedonian and Bulgarian CANNOT establish a link with antiquity as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian Kingdom"
“Macedonia Redux”, Eugene N. Borza, in The Eye Expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity, ed. Frances B Tichener & Richard F. Moorton, University of California Press, 1999
Even as a Slav I must admit that beginning of this video is misleading. Modern North Macedonians started their history where all Slavs history starts - in the swamplands of Polesia (modern Belarus, Ukraine and Poland) and there is no connection with ancient Kingdom of Macedonia. In fact Albanians have more intertwined history with Greeks than North Macedonians have. But instead going for "we conquered territories of Alexander the Great and made it out homeland" they try to cosplay as ancient Macedonians as if they were ashamed of their Slavic heritage (for God's sake Slavs conquered half of Europe and are the most numerous ethnic group in Europe and we did it without knowing how to read or write).
So, you are saying is that ancient Macedonians vanished in thin air, instead of mixing with incoming Slavs.
@@jean-luc_picard Slavic success was based on cultural dominance. Slavic culture was far more self-sufficient than any more civilized one. So when crisis came and civilized countries and tribes were collapsing because they were dependent on long distance trade, Slavs, with their more primitive political organization had largely self sufficient settlements. So whenever advance political and economical structures fell non-Slavic groups face either extinction, mass migration or abandonment of their way of life. And depending on region it look differently: modern Poland was basically empty because all Germanic tribes emigrated, while in Byzantine territories cultural absorption was more frequent. But it wasn't cultural blending in more traditional way, but rather abandoning old style of life to become part of Slavic community. So while there was definitely genetic mixing, cultural mixing was rather small and any notion historical or political continuity is extremely unlikely.
And this is also reason why Romanians and Albanians survived even due extreme pressure from Slavic colonization - mountain people by definition were more self sufficient than their lowland counterpart and the pressure to abandon old way of living and do it Slavic way was smaller. So Romania is a quite good example of more traditional culture blending and a counterexample to abandoning civilized culture to become part of more self-sufficient and primitive culture, as seen in other regions colonized by Slavs.
IN MAKEDONIJA --- MACEDONIANS. Slav.... dance rok en roll .
@@jean-luc_picard Noone disappeared, Macedonia is still where it always was, in Ellas. Also many tribes of Eurasia are descendants of the Ellenic army all the way to Pakistan and Afghanistan. This "country" has nothing to do with Macedonia and Ellas, the exact opposite, the real people of the land were expelled to Ellas, having to abandon their homes and start all over, as their conqueror (monkeydonians) were very barbaric.
@@jean-luc_picardancient Macedonia was Greek and nothing else… yes, 1000 years AFTER Alexander the Great Slavs mixed with local Greeks from Macedonia, Epirus, Thesalia etc…
What’s your point???
It's not just Greece's problem, it's also a Bulgarian problem as well, from which - an European problem. If you act like cattle, you will be treated like cattle
I did the Bulgarian angle in another video and got thousands of hate comments from Bulgarians after I said that Bulgaria didn’t really understand why it was angry with the Macedonians. (Every comment essentially said that I’d didn’t know what I was talking about. Of course, they knew why they were angry. And then each one gave me a different reason for their anger. You can’t make this stuff up. 🙂 I might have to revisit that discussion again.)
@@JamesKerLindsaythe ol’ Balkan mosh pit
@@JamesKerLindsay Yeah, this is why it is so hard to untangle diplomatic issues. While we try to look at it dispassionately from the outside at the end of the day many conflicts just come down to people being angry often for ill-defined reasons based on generations of inherited hate. It is hard to solve a problem backed by mostly emotional impulses.
They would be much better off if they were part of Bulgaria, and in the EU
@JamesKerLindsay You are right that Bulgaria's position hasn't been clear about what our neighbors should do exactly to get our final nod for the EU. However, I do think you somewhat trivialize the issues between the two countries, and there are many: the language, the huge number of Bulgarians with Macedonian roots(all over Bulgaria), the identity of historical figures, archeological evidence etc. Many people believe the issues are exploited by politicians (on both sides) who could instead be looking for practical solutions to improve relations. The situation is quite similar to Romania/Moldova, Greece/Cyprus, Albania/Kososvo, Serbia/R. Srpska. Lots of shared history, but separate countries. Hopefully, all will be part of the part of the EU eventually, and we will be able to overcome the silly bickering. I hope you do a follow-up video on the MK-BG-GR disputes, perhaps fact-checking everyone's claims as a neutral observer.
I mean from what i've seen North Macedonia has no relation whatsoever with ancient Macedonia as they are not ethnically Greek so I get why Greece is mad.
That is true!
Macedonia is part of the Greek culture.
Even the names Alexander, olymliada, Philip, aristotelis, and macedonia are of Greek origin themselves.
I live in Flanders. Except that I don't, because my region used to be part of the historical duchy of Brabant and not the historical county of Flanders. And yet those in Lille who historically were Flemish and today are part of France, aren't upset by this. Besides, it would be ironic for Frenchies to be upset, since unlike them, us Flemishmen are the descendants of the Franks and we don't make a fuss about that either.
Damn, sometimes I'm happy we are not the Balkans.
@@1302VLI am not sure your case is the same as the one described here. In this case, a Slavic people who appeared 1000 years after Alexander the Great claims that descended from Alexander the Great. A people who speaks a dialect of Bulgarian tries to connect itself with a person who spoke Greek, identified as Greek and spread Greek language and culture to Afghanistan and India. Do you now get it maybe a little better?
Ancient Macedonians weren't Greeks either, especially not modern-day Greeks.
@@Marble8King so they use an ahistorical name. Like Flanders does. And France does. And Russia does (the Rus were Germanic). And half of the world does. What is not the same about it precisely?
1. The original Macedonian territory was smaller and more southern, its inhabitants were Greeks and spoke a northern Greek dialect related to Doric, and almost all of it is located in today's Greece.
2. It's the Romans who expanded it to include Paeonia and Dardania; this is where Republic of N. Macedonia sits right now.
3. There's no mention of Slavic migrations.
"Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states" - Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96.
@@Love78787 Herodotus mentions that the Macedonians are a Dorian race, which originally lived in Pindos and later settled in the Peloponnese. The Argeades attributed their origin to the first mythical king of Argos, Timenos.
@@Love78787 Nice Skopian propaganda. Unfortunately it's fake
@@Love78787 Don't rely too much for your propaganda on Borza. The Slav-Macedonians, Borza viewed as a "newly emergent people" who he believed could not establish a link with antiquity because "Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom". He saw any alleged link of Slav-Macedonians to the ancient Macedonian kingdom as a product of regional political factors, and not genetic or cultural.
@@Love78787 if you had ever studied Herodotus and Thukidides, you would not say these nonsense.
are you claiming that North Macedonia and its Bulgarian/slavic population has ties to the ancient Macedonian/Greek peoples and empire? LOL if so then you have lost all credibility and I cannot take you seriously anymore! I am not even greek by the way.
North Macedonia partially overlaps with ancient Macedonia. While they do have genetic similarity with Bulgarian they are also genetically related to greek Macedonians.
@@billzhang8628 ?????????????????????????
Source?
He is not even a professor. I cam here to listen to a professor and his aspect on the things, and I listened to a man making cheap propaganda.
@@billzhang8628 ok then so by your logic Turkiye is also ancient Greece or Macedonia because many turks have some genetics as the ancient greeks and Turkiye has lands that once were part of ancient Greece and the Macedonian empire. LOL
@@TheBill86100 The source is lower intestinal.
by the way, in [02:20] i guess you were confused when you said that "North Macedonia have an extraordinary History and then referred to the ancient Macedonian Kingdom etc". you wanted just to say "ancient Macedonia has an extraordinary History etc"
One of James’s absolutely standard introductory remarks is ‘(Insert obscure or disputed people or landmass here) has a very rich and complex history, dating back to (insert distant time period here)’. Much as I love him, it’s a rather banal and meaningless ‘apple pie’ statement to make the topic at hand seem more interesting and worthy of analysis. Tell me which people or territories do not , arguably, have ‘a rich and complex history, stretching back to the beginning of time’?? This one, though I sympathise with the Greeks and respect for international treaties, is just another self-interest-based dispute between different groups of people and their populist and power-hungry leaders. Pathetic. 🤷♂️
@@hisdadjames4876Yes but it's looks like everyone dp it in purpose. Ancient Macedonians was Greeks not Slavs and ancient Macedonia is inside Greece, where is and the original region of Macedonia. There is not such things as Macedonia outside Greece. These people of 'North Macedonia' are mix of Bulgarians and Albanians who want to steal Greek history. This place of 'North Macedonia' till 30 years ago was called Vardaska Banovina
srbi ukrali Vardarska Makedonija. dogovor 1913 :
Srbija na MAKEDONIJA vrak'a Vardarska Makedonija .
I noticed this error too. True, extraordinary history as slavic people, not Macedonian.
THERE WAS NO "NORTH MACEDONIA" BEFORE 2018 FAKE AGREEMENT , MACEDONIA FOR 4000 YEARS NOW IS GREECE
Just a regular day in the Balkans
I know I'm really not meant to laugh, but as someone who has spent decades working on the region and is a bone-fide professor of SE Europe politics and international relations, I really couldn't help it! It really is either laugh or cry sometimes!
@@JamesKerLindsay you call yourself a bone-fide profesor? Hahah So pathetic.
@@JamesKerLindsay EVERY GOOD ! ! Tatjana from MAKEDONIJA
@@JamesKerLindsay the situation in the Balkans is often tragicomic due to the appetites of the great powers to divide and rule the region, which turns out to be quite profitable for them and quite miserable for us. The only solution is united and strong Balkans!!! Тhanks to our centuries of suffering, Western countries live in peace and prosperity. So instead of teaching us how to live, show some respect.
@@Bulgarian01 MAKEDONIJA vo JUZ'NA EVROPA.
i do 1880 godina Balkanski e so ime MAKEDONSKI POLUOSTROV ! ! !
If you overlay a map of modern northern Macedonia with ancient Macedonia, there is basically almost no overlap. Macedonia is and was part of what would be considered the Greek/Hellenistic cultural sphere that would be inherited by the modern day state of Greece.
Northern Macedonia is just a bunch of Bulgarians with an identity crisis, their languages are basically the same. I don’t know why they’re so desperate to claim the heritage of Macedonia when Bulgaria also has a rich and long history.
yeah and turkey should named hitites. lmao. 2k years ago.... dude. this is madness. a lot of migration periods happened. ancient people and cultures are gone.
@@ozgurd5920 The turkish people even in their own founding myth do not consider themselves as being indigenous to anatolia, (even though a vast majority of Turkey population is). They're arguments that could be made on cultural and linguistic lines, not just ancestral and ethnic ones. Difference with North Macedonia is they do not have any those.
@@itsorganic7739 anglo-saxons were not british yet they claim they are british and they protect stonehenge etc right?
so why not macedons cannot create their identity by their current place?
and why greece getting hurted by this?
@@ozgurd5920 No one really claims to be an "Anglo Saxon". That term is largely used in reference to the germanic invaders of the british isles from the early middle ages. The reason why that term endured is because most of what would become england became the domain of the anglo saxons, while the older cultures on the island like the romano british got pushed back to places like wales and cornwall. Over time these people began to consider themselves English once the country was unified, and eventually British as their control over the other cultural entities on the island was expanded. "Anglo saxon" as a term today is really only in reference to the linguistic heritage of the English language. The germanic invaders spoke what is known as "Old English" which was an anglo saxon/german dialect. That langauge eventually evolved into the english we have today on the british isle over centuries of change and cultural influences. The basis of that language though is still its Anglo Saxon Roots
@@itsorganic7739 so is it so different than macedons or even ottomans at this point? history is not solid thing mate you can bend it as you want.
I have followed this situation closely for many years. However, like many others, I thought the two countries had finally resolved this dispute. But it seems not. So, do you think that the New Government in North Macedonia will try to revoke the Prespa Agreement? And what will happen if it does? Or will it just continue to undermine it in other ways? And what will Greece and the EU do if it does? As always, I look forward to hearing your thoughts and comments below.
What is the ethnic origin of your surname Ker? Is it celtic or so? Welsh or Cornish maybe?
@vovac8915 Close. Scottish! 🏴🙂 But I also have Welsh and Irish (and English) ancestry.
As an American I simple cannot fully understand this issue of heritage. All my life I've been told, there's a little bit of this nationality and a little bit of that one, I simply don't know what it's like to have not just one, but one that goes back for centuries. I can't reproduce that connection. Disputes over heritage only I find fascinating.
The North Macedonian government has been trying to forge a distinct identity and the Prespa agreement distorts the image they have been painting. While some people are ok with this distortion, many other cannot accept the fact that they have been deceived since childhood or simply admit they have been wrong all along. The pendulum has now swung and the balance of power is in the latter's favour. Let's see how long will they keep it.
P.S. It's the Balkans and thing are never straightforward.
Russ Roberts host of EconTalk podcast should do a episode on political correctness and hypocrisy of the political commentary community.
👌🏿
I am sorry but you confuse things. Macedonia as geographical location and an old Greek population has nothing to do with current North Macedonia, who are Slavs/ Bulgarians. It’s like saying USA has a rich history of of Siberian and Asian people who are known as Clovis people thousands years ago.
Why USA is named after an Italian cartographer is a convoluted story...
By that logic "New" Greek population doesn't have much to do with ancient one either. Some stayed and mixed with new people and others migrated, same as Greece or any other country.
MAKEDONIJA EXIST 25 CENTURIES from FILIP KING ON MAKEDONIJA.
germans make Blgaria before 140 years. Greece before 190 years.
@@tatjanavelkova5814and fakedonia in 1991.what's your point?
@@Filaretiioannis fakedonia ? ?
kreten .
are you really saying that todays Macedonia is linked to the Hellenistic Kingdom historically?!
I got that distinct impression from watching this, which seems historically misleading. (And I'm not even from North Macedonia or Greece).
considering he missed out a very very big chunk of complicated history in which it was Bulgarian (hell the capital was there ), then Serb and then ottoman . Then all the ethnic cleansing on the otomans behalf due to rebellions from the ethnic groups , the the Serb propaganda years . Yes he might as well say it
are modern greeks connected to hellenic times really? check your bloodline you could be turkish.
@@ozgurd5920 You are turkified islamised Anatolians, you don't look central Asian Turkic. Get your facts 😉
@@ozgurd5920You are turkified Greeks
North Macedonia wasn't even a think back when Alexander made his Empire. It just happenes to share a name with the ancient greek empire due to them occupying part of the area that made up the original Greek kingdom of Macedon. The area though was only taken many many many centuries after. They aren't even greek they are slavs (no probelm towards the people even have some slav friends) and alexander and his empire where greek. Slavs weren't even close to a think during 300 bc
before 25 centuries FILIP MACEDONIAN KINGDOM ! ! !
I mean could the same not be said about Egypt and Syria where the majority of people are Arabs with little cultural continuity to the historic civilizations?
@@billzhang8628 No, it is not the same because there is not a North Syria or a North Egypt. Where there is an actual Macedonia, which is in northern Greece
@@alfredoarroyo9201 Assyria only partially overlaps with modern Syria. In fact there are more Assyrians in Iraq. North Macedonia does partially overlap with ancient Macedonia.
I'm Serbian and in my experience most Serbians feel like its ridiculous for N Macedónia to pretend to be the descendents of Philip and Alexander the Great....
It's just stupid ... But also I can tell anyone that the people of the Balkans are some of the most stubborn people on Earth... Lol
God Bless them all 🙏... I pray that they'll figure things out tho ...
North Macedonia celebrating Alexander the Great is like Poland proclaiming Otto von Bismarck as a national hero
Who cares, if it is just trolling the bully next door?
Repablic of Macedonia never Greek never Nord god blees new President of Macedonia.
@@angelina1636Just slavis
@@EdMcF1 go and see how the people suffer for decades in northern Greece with even threatening text messages in the middle of the night and come back again to talk about bullying
The country is literally teaching hate to their youth about their neighboring countries and are threatening them with war
And you still have the Audacity to talk about bullies.
He is Alexander the Macedon🇲🇰 not Alexander the greek !
2:25 I am surprised you stated that North Macedonia is anyhow linked to Alexander the Great. The cornestone of the Prespa Agreement is that North Macedonia will refrain from claiming any connection with Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonian symbols.
Maybe I got this wrong, but watching the intro to do this video. There was the Ottoman Province of Macedonia. That got split up between Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria, and it just so happens that the only sovereign -free part of that former province is the Serbian one. Umm so there is like a concept there that these people grew up in the past seeing themselves as Macedonians, because living in that province. No idea.
IN MAKEDONIJA EVERYTHING IS MACEDONIAN ! ! !
@@MarkVrem There was no Ottoman Province of Macedonia. They never used the name. The Turks called the area the vilayets (provinces) of Selanik (Salonica), Manastir (derived from the Greek name Monastiri, now known as Bitola), and Kosovo.
@@MarkVrem MAKEDONSKI NAROD 25 VEKA od KRAL FILIP .
zuj... u Nis'ava.
Macedonia has a long and rich history, North Macedonia has not. It's just slavs cosplaying as Greeks.
They are the same region divided by old immigration and language.
Half of Greece is Slavic
MACEDONIANS 25 CENTURIES speak Macedonian language .
That's like saying greeks are turks cosplaying greeks
According to a German historian, today's Greeks have no internal ties with the ancient Greeks and Hellenes. Current Greeks are a mixture of Slavs, Albanians and Romanians.
James, I have 2 simple questions. Have you been to Alexandria in Egypt? Because I did various times and can assure you they all consider Alexandar the Great as Greek and use the Arabic word Al-Yunan (just like Turkish Yunanistan). You will see Greek writings in many places. This script cannot be read by today's North Macedonia. Also why is the modern Macedonian language the closest to Bulgarian and not Serbo-Croatian? 🙂
MACEDONIANS 25 CENTURIES ARE MACEDONIANS ! ! ! ! !
@@tatjanavelkova5814 Have you been to Alexandria, Egypt? Yes or no?
The modern Macedonian language was created in 1945 by Venko Markovski. It’s essentially a dialect of Bulgarian.
MACEDONIANS 25 CENTURIES speak Macedonian language ! ! !
@@tatjanavelkova5814 Reply. Have you been to Alexandria, Egypt? It is a simple question.
Professor I think at around 2:20 you made a mistake calling the ancient kingdom of Macedonia as "North Macedonia"
Thanks. Unfortunately, this seems to becoming up a lot. I said that North Macedonia has a long history. This should not be contentions. We routinely refer to the history of countries long before they existed. Greece is a great case in point. We talk of its long history, even though it only became a state in 1830. But referring to the ancient Kingdom of Macedonia doesn’t mean that North Macedonia is some sort of direct successor to that. That would be illogical in every way. But it was necessary to raise the kingdom in order to explain why the current disputes between Greece and North Macedonia have arisen. Sadly, some appear to want to read this as suggesting a direct link. I didn’t say that. And it never entered my head that it could or would be interpreted in that way. Thanks for pointing it out. I just wish that many others had done so in a polite way. Instead they have been throwing abuse. Sadly, to non-Greeks this will only reinforce the view that many Greeks are unpleasantly irrational on this issue.
@@JamesKerLindsay As a Cypriot Greek I would agree with my compatriots or other Greeks who are angry on this issue. It's like calling England a Spanish province or something as ridiculous as that. There are limits to what one can listen to or read about and not reply. Therefore it is prompt to correct things so that they are not misunderstood my anyone. Thanks.
@@alkishadjinicolaou5831 Based and Mary Tudor-pilled
NOTE: It seems it was a problem with the translation. I have also now edited the video to correct any misinterpretation.
I'm neither Greek nor Bulgarian just someone interested in history and geopolitics but it seems like North Macedonia is a nation of roleplayers lol. Especially adopting the imagery of Alexander when he lived way before the Slavic migration to the area.
I do wonder though about if Greece throwing such a fit over the name is the right approach. Like they could just let them keep the name and use it as an opportunity to try to spread more of their culture and influence into the area instead of riding on their historic influence of the area.
I think it goes deeper. I just watched the intro so far. But it got me thinking. There was a province of Macedonia in the Ottoman Empire. It just so happens that the only area of that once province that is free, is North Macedonia. Maybe the Greeks and Bulgars fear their territories of Macedonia could be inspired to be sovereign also. Not sure.
And how are the Greek and the Bulgarian part of the modern geographical region of Macedonia not free?
@@MarkVrem I'm pretty sure the majority of people in the Greek region of Macedon identify as Greece. I'm not sure about Bulgaria though but if that were the case, wouldn't the people in Greece/Bulgaria that want to unite with North Macedonia be more vocal? It really doesn't seem like that is the case or that there is a North Macedonian majority in those areas
I understand your mindset, but you cannot portray a nation’s people as “roleplayers” if we simply follow our culture and historical heritage, which is rooted in the Ancient period of Macedonia. Our ancestors praised the conquests of Alexander the Great and the glory of Macedon in countless works. Ancient Macedonia has been used as a symbolism for freedom from Ottoman captivity by the Macedonians themselves. The symbolism of the Ancient Macedonians has been maintained throughout the 2,000 years after Alexander the Great’s reign, being engraved in our flags, coat of arms, religious sites and our tradition. We have not simply adopted the imagery of Alexander the Great, we inherited it from our ancestors instead.
@@Odyssey05 The Vergina Sun and all other ancient Macedonian symbols were not used in North Macedonia before the 1990's. Neither ancient Macedonian names like Alexander or Philip, neither folk song and other relative cultural elements. For example, the "Bulgarian Folk Songs" of the Miladinov Brothers in 1861, and other literary product before the 1990's speaks nothing about ancient Macedonia
Thanks!
Hello William, I am so very sorry for not replying to this at the time. I have only just seen it. (YT really isn’t very good at notifications!) Thank you so much. That is incredibly kind. I really and truly appreciate it. Very best regards, James
But let's suppose North Macedonia did get in to the EU with its new name. There's absolutely nothing to stop it checking the name back, is there? No Chapters of the Acqui will have been broken, not anything even to sanction the state.
Yep. There was no enforcement mechanism of any kind in 2018. I honestly don't see how they join the EU without at least some sort of mechanism now unless the new government in Skopje grovels, which they won't do. Maybe a future NM government will be willing to grovel.
@@professorquarter We don’t even want to be a EU member only Kovacevski and his party are obsessed with EU membership.
Greece might insist on some form of exception, a bit like Denmark's little tweak to the Maastricht Treaty allowing it to ban (cough) Germans from buying holiday homes in Denmark.
@@EdMcF1 That was a Denmark opt-out, applied within its own country, not applied on another country. And although it's true that it was protecting itself from holiday home buyers of its neighbours Germany, it's not a ban on foreigners buying those properties but a ban on non-residents buying them. If they become tax-paying residents, Germans can buy the properties. (Canary Islands resident here: holiday homes were not just an issue for Denmark then, but are a contemporary issue for various places today, huh?)
The so called North Macedonia should be properly and rightly called West Bulgaria.
As an Austrian that fell in love with Greece´s history as a child, i hope that Greece will never back down. Do not misrepresent history
So you fell in love in fairytale 🧚♀️
@@LevisDeepMomShit007 Cope, 🐒
@@LevisDeepMomShit007 Don't listen to this troll. He is Niko Ivanov from Dupnica Bulgaria , using my nickname and pfp as impersonalization.
The only difference is he can't copy my tag since I've already taken it and I have 1 number less and 1 letter more.
M A K E D O N I J A 25 CENTURIES ! ! Bulgaria 140 years.
I guess what you said there (02:20) is exactly what pees Bulgarians and Greeks off and this is why they are so firm with the republic that shouldn't be named. You said that the history of North Macedonia emerged as a kingdom which is a very inaccurate statement. There is no continuity between Ancient Macedonia and the republic of north macedonia, and as such, its history started on 2nd August, 1944 and its language was codified, as pointed in the entry on that language in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, based on the the dialect furthest away from Bulgarian, by the Serbs. Guess why!
1944 ASNOM i vo Prohor Pc'inski izglasan MAKEDONSKI MANIFEST.
Metodij Andonov C'ento ---- lider na ASNOM ! ! !
Macedonia is part of the Greek culture.
The names (Alexander, Philip, olympiada, Aristotelis, Macedonia, etc) are all of Greek origin. In Greek language this names have a meaning, but in slavic they are random translated words.
Even the era of Alexander's campaign was named as HELLENISTIC(GREEK) ERA and not a macedonian or slavic era, or sametihing. The scripts, coins, texts of that period are all in Greek and not in slavic. Why?
The macedonians participated in Olympic games, where only Greeks could participate. Macedonian kingdom was connected with Greece and not wuth tha slavs coming into the region in 7th century.
"Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states" - Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96.
@@Love78787 Herodotus mentions that the Macedonians are a Dorian race, which originally lived in Pindos and later settled in the Peloponnese. The Argeades attributed their origin to the first mythical king of Argos, Timenos. 🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷
@@Love78787 Macedonians participated in the Olympics, only Greeks could participate back then.
Great Alexander's Era was called worldwide as HELLENISTIC (GREEK) ERA, not something else.
Macedonians spoke Greek we can understand their texts in Greek. So, what are you talking about??🤩🤩🤩
@@Love78787Do not mention Herodotus in our discussion because you have never even touched a book of him.
I read Herodotus in Greek and i can understand. Can you do the same????
@@ΙωάννηςΕλ The Macedonians had Macedonian pagan religion that has nothing to do with the greek that is why there are Macedonian games at Dion. ''the ancient Macedonians were part of a local pantheon which included Thaulos (god of war equated with Ares), Gyga (later equated with Athena), Gozoria (goddess of hunting equated with Artemis), Zeirene (goddess of love equated with Aphrodite) and Xandos (god of light).[135]'' 😋
The question is (as with other treaties): are there ways to protect what has become international law against potential violators? For instance, North Macedonia joined NATO as part of the deal with Greece, yet there is no possibility that it would loose its position in the alliance should it decide to depart from the Prespa Agreement. So what is it that protects an international agreement? When an individual breaks the law, there are immediate and very precise consequences. But the consequences for a state breaking international law are very vague, thus making international law weak in its implementation
Macedonia gained nothing from NATO,ony became poorer
Before the Prespa Agreement, there was a another agreement in 1995, which established the provisional name FYROM for usage in the UN and on a bilateral level between Macedonia and Greece. This agreement had a clause that Greece would not block Macedonia's membership into international organizations. Greece violated this agreement in 2008, by vetoing Macedonia's NATO membership. In 2011, there was an ICJ ruling that Greece violated the agreement. The democratic and law-abiding international community (UN, NATO, EU, etc), took a very good reading of ICJ ruling, and told Macedonians that we can wipe our bottoms with it. Based on that, any other ruling on the matter will have similar weight.
@@Petelko2695 FYROM ? ?
CREP .
Yeah okay 2:20 you just lost me. it's just blatant misinformation regarding history. I came here looking for a respectable analysis and im greeted with lies and deceit.
You actually associated North Macedonia with Alexander the Great and his Hellenistic empire in your introduction? Do your homework Professor, the North Macedonians who identify as Macedonian are Bulgarian speaking Slavs, not Greek Speakers with a Greek identity like Alexander was. Furthermore, the ancient Kingdom of Macedonia was centered in what is now the Greek province of Macedonia. They are Slav Bulgars who have robbed a history and identity that is not theirs.
Seriously, I’m not sure how many times I have to say this: if I didn’t mention it, the reasons why Greece was so upset about the issue of Alexander wouldn’t have been understood to outsiders. And if I didn’t mention, you would have been furious that I was whitewashing the link between Greece, Macedonia and Alexander. I was also clear that the modern Macedonians deal a South Slavic language and that the identity was essentially constructed by Yugoslavia. Seriously, this is why people became so frustrated with Greece on this issue. One couldn’t win. And it seems one still can’t!
That doesn't change the fact that we WERE WE ARE AND WE WILL BE ALWAYS MACEDONIANS, no one can change that
@@JamesKerLindsay the Macedonian identity was not constructed in Yugoslavia. The idea of a separete Macedonian identity rose after the 1870s, when Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia started competing for Ottoman Macedonia. After WWII, the Yugoslav government just recognised its existance.
Macedonians living in Macedonia have both Slavic and ancient heritige. Legends and customs dating back to antiquity are still strong among Macedonians. We speak a Slavic language, but our culture is closely tied with the Eastern Mediterranean region.
@@JamesKerLindsay Professor, some things are just factually inaccurate and that was. I know you mentioned the rest. I don't personally care if anyone got frustrated with Greece. The fact is Greece and those who have the right to claim a historical connection to ancient Macedonia, as in the Greek speaking population of what was historical ancient Macedonia, were/are being robbed and unfortunately, appeasing, some would argue traitorous, elements in the Greek elite, have compromised history and reality by giving a Bulgarian Slavic people the right to use even the term North Macedonia as a description for the state north of Greece's Macedonian province, and the right to label a Slavic Bulgarian dialect as a Macedonian language. Its disgusting; a perversion of history and identity and will no doubt cause all sorts of tensions going forward.
MACEDONIANS 25 CENTURIES speak Macedonian language .
Todays Greeks have nothing to do with ancient Greeks. They are a African tribe that came later in the teritory of todays Greece.
Before the Greece was established around 1830 year, when asked who they are ordinary Greeks were answering that they were Romei people- that means decendants of the Roman empire that incorporated thousents of ethnic groups. So the Western powers in 1830 invented Greece and all the famous Hellenic and Macedonian historical heritage "gave it" exclusively to Greece and falsified the true history, according to its political needs at that time.
Which African tribe exactly came to |Greece and when?...................Do you mean Zulus came to Greece? So you reckon todays Greeks are descendants of Zulus you reckon? When Greece was conquered by Rome the Greeks became Romanised and self identified as Romans (Romaioi) This fusion of ancient Greece and ancient Rome resulted in the medieval Greek Empire called the Byzantine Empire. You can't invent Greece, Greece has been around for Millenia, Greece was under Ottoman rule for 400 years and the Greeks rose up in rebellion in 1770 and then in 1821 and free Greece was established in 1828 after 400 years of Ottoman rule
@rafaellagaribaldi9391 There were migrations of the people that lived there.
Fisically, Today's Greeks are with dark skin, dark hair, brown eyes, most of them off course. Ancient Greeks, in contrary, were mostly blue eyed with light skin tone. Modern Greece is a political project of the Western powers that seek to detent the Otoman empire and establish presence in the Balkans and Mediteranian sea.
The theritory of Macedonia was brutaly divided in 1913 and the population in the southern part ,that was occupied by Greek monarchy ,was tortured and partially ethnicaly cleansed in 1948 year.
Dear Lady, official Western history is a fraud. Also There was no migration of the Slavic people from the Carpatian mountines to the Balkans in the 9th century. Happy NY and stay smart
@@Rweheheheh you said African tribes came to Greece, When did these African tribes come to Greece? You don't make it quite clear when and from which African tribe tribe they belonged to? I mean were they Zulus for example?? did Zulus come to Greece??
Only someone deeply familiar with the history and politics of the Balkans can understand the total farce that is North Macedonia. The idea that the Slavs in Macedonia are ancient Greeks is actually Greek propaganda from the 18th-19th centuries, which Greece used to de-Bulgarianize and assimilate them, parallel to the slogan of the national hero of Greece, Pavlos Menachs, "there should not be a living Bulgarian in Macedonia". The national symbol of this country is the revolutionary organization VMRO. The organization itself strongly opposes Greek propaganda and even in official documents discussed measures to combat the term "Macedonia" and Macedonians - specifically, the national hero of North Macedonia, Damian Gruev, wrote about it. Damian (Dame) Gruev himself is an ethnic Bulgarian, and VMRO is a Bulgarian organization that arose as an attempt to revise the Berlin Congress of 1878, by which the Bulgarians were divided into several parts after the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878 and in this organization only Bulgarian members of the Bulgarian Exarchate can be members (in Orthodoxy this represents ethnophiletism, which is why this church was stigmatized in the Orthodox world until the end of the Second World War). Historically, the "Macedonians" in these lands were never called Macedonians, but Bulgarians. As Prof. Raymond Detrez says "these people called themselves Bulgarians and were called Bulgarians by others" (this quote is from an online scholarly debate between Bulgarian and Macedonian historians during Covid and can be viewed at T).
It is even funnier that even after World War II the communists in Yugoslavia wrote that these people were "Slavs", it is not clear what Slavs (they were already forbidden to define themselves as Bulgarians). However, a Greek mythology and propaganda began to be harnessed to build a new identity for these people. The story of the ancient mighty Macedonians perfectly fits the building of a national identity different from the Bulgarian one. Thus, the Bulgarians became "Tatars, Mongols, fascists, occupiers", and the Macedonians, an ancient nation of 3000 years old, that "gave the world the white race, Christianity and the Cyrillic alphabet" - these are real statements of the new Macedonian historical science.
Many people today may accept this lie sympathetically and with a smile. In reality, however, behind it hides terrible hatred, discrimination and chauvinism, which leads to territorial, ethnic, church and minority claims toward Greece and Bulgaria. Looking at certain maps from the 19th century, these people believe that the Ottoman-era Maceodnia vilayet belongs to them. This vilayet is only an administrative region and today includes Greece and Bulgaria (and a small part of Serbia, but in North Macedonia no one dares to claim Serbia ;)))). Moreover, the new Macedonian nation was given a new "Macedonian language" by the communists, which was created by Bulgarian writer Venko Markovski. Markovski himself later renounced his own creation because it divided the Bulgarians. However, this new Macedonian language is a regional form of the Bulgarian and as such is spoken by Bulgarians in Macedonia and by Bulgarians in today's Pirin region in Bulgaria. Skopje persistently lobbied to impose this new language and thus claim a Macedonian minority in Bulgaria and Greece - historically there is no such thing. Things are becoming particularly dangerous for Bulgaria, because at the creation of Yugoslavia, Bulgaria had to become a member and give the Pirin area to the new Macedonian state. The communists, with decrees and violence, turned hundreds of thousands of Bulgarians into Macedonians. This policy was abandoned by Bulgaria, but Macedonia uses now this period to claim a minority in Bulgaria. In the 1970s, Yugoslav intelligence worked in this direction and created organizations OMO Ilinden Pirin to claim cultural autonomy of certain regions in Greece and Bulgaria, but they were exposed. Bulgaria and Greece consolidate their policies against Yugoslav claims.
The conclusion is that behind the name there are serious claims of this young country to Greece and Bulgaria - territorial and minority, which, however, have no historical basis. The refusal of the politicians in Skopje to respect the agreements with Greece and Bulgaria shows a desire for revisionism. Bulgaria and Greece will not allow this, and rightly so. Behind the concept of Macedonia (without North) are claims to the whole of Macedonia. For this, Greece and Bulgaria have clauses in the contracts with North Macedonia that NM they will not interfere in the internal affairs of these two countries. However, the new rulers in Skopje openly say that they want to respect the rights of the Macedonian minorities in Greece and Bulgaria, which is a gross violation of the treaties. Skopje also reacted extremely painfully to the recognition of Bulgarian minorities in Albania and Kosovo. En masse, Bulgarians set up their own schools there. During Yugoslavia, these people were forced to write as Macedonians. The story is a real farce. At the same time, hundreds of thousands of Macedonians became Bulgarian citizens and left the country. In the last two years alone, 4,500 Macedonians have proven their Bulgarian origin and have become Bulgarians. In total, there are now more than 120,000 people.Skopje stubbornly refuses to end the state-instilled hatred towards Bulgaria and the Bulgarians and, above all, to end the falsification of the Bulgarians history on these lands. For this, Bulgaria insists that the mixed historical commission clean up the falsifications accumulated from the time of communism, but Skopje withdrew from this commitment as well. Yesterday, in a televised debate, Risto Nikovski- macdonian diplomat said "there are no Bulgarians in Macedonia". This is the old Yugoslav thesis and apparently Skopje will continue to suppress these people. All cultural clubs of the Bulgarians have already been set on fire, last year they were shootings with weapons against those clubs, there were stone attacks and all the presidents of Bulgarian cultural clubs are on trial for inciting hatred. The terror towards the Bulgarians in Macedonia is total. Skopje does not want to include them in its constitution as a people and this shows the true face of this regime.
Macedonians are not bulgarians, it's not so easy to get independence alone, macedonians were close with Bulgarians so they can get independence, also people weren't educated so much back then
@@petar4968 These are untenable arguments. Historical science has no data on such an ethnic group in medieval Europe. Ottoman archives, the travelogues of many Western travelers and diplomats, dozens of ethnic maps of this region show that the largest ethnic group is the Bulgarians. At the same time, not a single source speaks of Macedonians. All the heads of the revolutionary organization VMRO have written biographies - as far as I know, only Pere Toshev does not, but he was a resident of the Bulgarian intelligence in Istanbul, which clearly shows what nationality he was. All revolutionaries clearly write about Bulgarians. The first statute of VMRO speaks only of Bulgarians, there is not even a mention of Macedonians. These people were extremely educated in their time. Doctor Hristo Tatarchev died before the 1950s and spoke clearly about the freedom of the Macedonian Bulgarians. Gotse Delchev in over 60 documents, some of which were written by himself, is defined as Bulgarian and never as Macedonian. In the past, Bulgarians and Macedonians were the same thing. Today they are two separate countries, with two separate peoples, but historically they are the same thing.
@@andromeda-p8b MACEDONIANS 25 CENTURIES.
blgari -- 140 years.
1539 Theseus Ambrogio Albonese (1469-1540/41) is an Italian humanist from the period of the Italian Renaissance, representative of Christian (Catholic) Kabbalism and harbinger of Orientalism. His most important work is the book Chaldaicam linguam, Syriacam, atque Armenicam, & decem alias linguas. Published in 1539, in which the church psalms are translated from several languages, and the languages of the time and the alphabet used by the peoples as a means of written communication are recorded. In his book, he makes a language alphabetic parallel between several languages such as Latin, Greek, Dalmatian , Syriac, Arabic, Hebrew... including Macedonian, which is listed as a separate language apart from Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian.
You can freely find that book of his in the original on the net.
Looks Bulgarian speaks Bulgarian worships Bulgarian… it must be Bulgarian 😂 or Albanian
@@davidscwimer1974........... jedi ..... c'varke .
Not just Greece, but Bulgaria too.
Vrati se doma vo Tatarstan.
@@DavidSimonoski-e3q Учи история...вие сте българи...
@@DavidSimonoski-e3q, bro, the fact that Bulgarians got their ethnonym from the Turkic tribe of Bulgars doesn't mean that Bulgarians are Turks and they should return to Tatarstan... Russian also got their ethnonym from the Scandinavian tribe Rus, but this doesn't mean that all Russians should return to Scandinavia
germans make Blgaria before 140 years.
@@DavidSimonoski-e3q POZDRAV ! ! Tatjana od MAKEDONIJA
If the country is called Macedonia: the Greeks are unhappy because it negates their historical heritage.
If the country is called North Macedonia, but with the denomination of "Macedonian" for the language and people, then Bulgaria is unhappy because it negates their cultural heritage in the region. Also, Greece is still unhappy.
And if the country is called anything other but "Macedonia", then it negates the identity of the people living in the country.
Sounds like there could be no compromise. Although I have a proposal that is going to infuriate everyone equally:
Republic of North Alexandria and West Bulgaria
In favor🤚
This issue will never be solved Tsiparas and Zaev manage to put a band aid on it.
Just call it Republic of Macedonia. If they don't like it, then too bad.
As an ethnic Dutch-Macedonian I'd like to thank you @JamesKerLindsay for making this video about one of my countries of origin. I'd like to mention a few relevant facts that weren’t addressed in the video that I think shed an interesting light on this conflict.
12:12 - The incoming government in my view doesn't actually need to pass new amendments to the constitution to undo the name change. This due to the fact that the original constitutional amendments for the name change, as approved in various votes from October 2018 to January 2019 in the Macedonian parliament, have been illegally influenced in such a manner that render these amendments null and void - that is, if Macedonia is a democratic country that is ruled by law.
This because the government of then PM Zoran Zaev didn’t have the required two-thirds majority in parliament to change the constitution. To combat this, Zaev exerted inappropriate and illegal control over the public prosecutor and the judiciary in order to blackmail 8 opposition (VMRO) MP’s into voting for his constitutional changes. Those 8 MP’s helped pass a highly controversial amnesty law for ongoing (!) criminal proceedings against three of them, with three others having been benefited in different legal proceedings, and the remainder got allegedly bribed by lucrative government contracts.
He as the head of the executive power of the government essentially abused the judicial power to illegally influence the legislative power. In a democratic country that is ruled by law, this is a massive violation of the principle of separation of powers, that renders the involved changes to the constitution null and void.
The country therefore never legally changed its name in the first place. Macedonia’s Constitutional Court should declare so and reinstate the last legally valid Constitution in the country. Then the government should undo all implementations of the agreement. And afterwards Greece can complain to the ICJ in The Hague for being in NATO with the Republic of Macedonia..
2:20 - It’s not really fair to the ancient Macedonians (but they’re all dead now anyway) to state that “North” Macedonia’s history begins with their ancient kingdom. The name of the land surely did start with them and their kingdom. But a lot has happened between ancient and modern times.
The relationship between ancient and modern Macedonians is genetic at best. There is broad scientific consensus that the Slavic invaders starting from the 5th century mixed with the local population. But that local population didn’t regard themselves as Macedonians (while genetically speaking they very likely were their heirs) anymore already for a few centuries.
Nevertheless, an “unbroken” connection isn’t required for modern Macedonians to have a right to call themselves as such. Their presence in the region of Macedonia as a whole, of over 1,500 years up until today, is. And this is significantly longer than today’s Greeks from their Macedonian province who have been taught only sine the 1980’s to regard themselves as the real descendants of the ancient Macedonians (purposefully done by nationalist Greek forces in response to the decline of Yugoslavia).
Also, the idea of modern ethnic Macedonians that they’re descendants of Alexander the Great and ancient Macedonians didn’t fell out of thin air, neither in 1945 or in 1991. In fact, it was the Greek Orthodox Church and the Greek state, starting almost 200 years ago, that taught the Slavs of Macedonia this, while the Ottoman Empire began to decline. Not as a selfless gift, but because Greece wanted to conquer Ottoman Macedonia and Hellenise (or Greekify if you will) the (mostly Slavic) population. A territory that never has been ruled by a Greek state until then by the way.
The descendants of those Slavs that were Hellenised in this period regard themselves today as Greeks (and probably also vehemently as the only real Macedonians..) without having any clue of their actual Slavic history. This has been carefully swept under the carpet. And those Slavic Macedonians who didn’t Hellenise fully in the end got exterminated or expelled and continue to suffer from misplaced Greek nationalism and fascism to this day.
In closing, it’s both funny and sad to see here in the comments how so many Greeks are so uninformed about their own history. When it comes to the Macedonian Question, the Greek public is filled with lies and distortions, in large part due to the forced nation-building processes that took place mostly between the second Balkan War and the fall of Yugoslavia. Which is a disgrace to the legacy of the ancient Greeks for sure. Thankfully the relationship between them is also genetic (and linguistic, fair enough) at best.
Your origins then translate into Dutch-Albano-Slavic mix. So besides not being a homogenous person, but a mix, you also do not have heritage of a tribe that is Hellenic. Thank you for the novel btw! :)
So you are turko Ethiopian living in greece (hellada), Greece is a bad word
@@aetherion7 thank you. And thank you for proving my point on misplaced Greek nationalism and fascism by your apparent criticism on me not being a homogenous person and not having Hellenic ancestry :)
@@HG-bd6pt Aha! We came into discussion about topics such as fascism now. Interesting and relevant! :D
Thank you. I realise that many argue that the ratification of the Prespa Agreement was unlawful, and I admit that it was rather irregular, but it passed through Parliament and it is done. More to the point, the country has benefited from it. It seems unwise to open it again. By the way, I have also adjusted the video to remove North at the point you mentioned. It was causing a lot of unnecessary angst, with many reading into it a completely separate meaning to the one intended. I therefore removed the word North from that point. This will hopefully clear up any confusion.
I admire your courage, Professor. Diving headfirst into the Powderkeg that remains the Balkans is not good for one's mental well-being.
Still, there must be discussion about such sensitive matters. Calm, polite and reasonable analyses such as yours are all the more required, considering how emotionally charged these situations are .Hope you are faring well!
Good Morning James,
It is often disappointing these days when a historic agreement is reached and with a change in administration in one of the parties involved, it gets revoked - as it happened with the US Iran deal.
That said, I am curious with one of the terms you used - 'peace agreement'. To the extent I know, the two sides were never engaged in violent conflict ? Is it common to use this term in the context? In order to not trigger emotions in the comments section, I would take one of the most obscure 'disputes'- in future if Portugal were to dismiss its claim on Olivença against Spain, would it be considered a peace agreement given these two sides were never in active conflict over it?
Have a good weekend.
Thanks Anirudh. I think we can call it a peace agreement. Agreed, we do tend to think of peace agreements as being linked to violent conflicts. However, I the term can be applied to other situations where there is a serious point of dispute that is resolved. After thirty years of tensions, which even ended up before the UN and ICJ, I think this qualified as a peace agreement. :-)
I hope all else is well at your end.
It’s kinda hard to call a peace agreement when no one actually agreed on peace
I whant to state something Many in North Macedonia citizens dont like the agrement then goverment made it cause it was promised by Brusseles if i remember correctly and French President and then Cancellor of Germany Angela Merkel supported by the US made promise to start ascension talks with North Macedonia for the European Union which we know it didnt happen cause of the Bulgarian Veto,and now we can see how the European Union undermined itself when it came to the agreement.and the people felt betrayed and cheated and felt the naming issue didnt bring us any good thing.
MAKEDONIJA 25 VEKA e vo JUZ'NA EVROPA .
od FILIP KRAL IV vek pred ovaa era i denes XXI vek ! ! !
@@agmg3059 Those stpd Slavs of North Macedonia should find a new name for their country which does not relate to Macedonia at all, i.e. Lower Slavia.
!!!!!!!!!!! 2:21 “NM has an extraordinarily long and rich history, having emerged as a kingdom on the periphery of Ancient Greece, under Alexander the Great it expanded...”
I’m honestly PINCHING MYSELF to believe that YOU out of all people said this!!!!! YOU!!! I’ve watched more than a couple of dozen of your videos, and I always admired how carefully you chose your words… Wow… Seriously, I’m in disbelief… I had to rewind and hear that part again…
It’s not “North Macedonia” that has an extraordinarily long and rich history that expanded as a kingdom under Alexander the Great, it’s MACEDONIA that has an extraordinarily long and rich history, and expanded as a kingdom under Alexander the Great…
Seriously, Professor, with all due respect, WHAT THE FUCK WHERE YOU THINKING?????!!!!!
As for the thumbnail about “Greece’s next problem?”, honestly, I’m over the moon listening to the Skopje politicians call their country “Macedonia”, and from the bottom of my heart, I wish they continue doing it more and more vocally. The way I see things, this is the only way to have that shameful agreement annulled.
And please, don’t give me any “international agreements are sacred blah-blah-blah”. Our previous government, a bunch of no ones, a bunch of people who were no ones for most of their life, found themselves in charge for a minimal period of time, and then went back to being no ones, had no right in the first place to sign that national treason-level agreement.
“But they were democratically elected”, someone can argue. “Being the government, they had every right to sign any agreement”, you could say. First, what they signed, was NOT in their pre-election manifesto, and in such a vastly important issue, they had no legitimacy to act on their own. Second, honestly, I don’t get how a government that runs a country for a couple of years, gets to sell - pretty much - a name that is thousands of years old. WHO WERE THEY TO DO THAT???!!! A government can decide on the… VAT imposed on something, can decide on which infrastructure project will go ahead, can try help businesses and vulnerable individuals, can do a whole bunch of government-y things, but they CANNOT sell something that is not THEIRS to sell, especially when they KNOW that more than 80% of the population are against it!! You can even agree on… exchanging territories with a neighboring country, so as to resolve a dispute, but you cannot sell a thousand-year-old historic NAME, for fuck’s sake!!!
Anyway…
Sorry to add that after your awful slip, I’ll find it extremely-extremely difficult to watch another video of yours. I’m always open to hearing arguments, I’ve gotten myself in trouble (with my own kind, Greeks) a couple of times because of my views on our maritime “issues” with Turkey, I’m more open minded that I could describe, I’m always the one urging people to put themselves in others’ shoes and look at the bigger picture taking a step back, but… “NM” and “Alexander the Great” CANNOT be in the same sentence. Simple as that.
I think he was talking about the history of the region specifically, not the people. He does right after specifically call it the Hellenistic period, implying it is Greek (which it is)
It's literally the Northern part of Macedonia. Going by NM clarifies that it makes no claims on the rest of the Macedonian region. The name change was a fine compromise imo and NM being in the EU and NATO makes Greece stronger, so you ought to want that.
If anything the Greek government at that time needed to include an enforcement mechanism.
MAKEDONIJA EXIST 25 CENTURIES from KING FILIP .
Oto german make Greece before 190 years.
@@tatjanavelkova5814 You should start a comedy show, this was pretty funny
@tatjanavelkova5814 Come on, man. If we are applying that logic to claim that Greece has only existed for that long (I am not saying whether that is fair or not), then we should apply the same logic to NM. The region of Macedonia that encompasses both the nation of NM and Greek Macedonia has existed and been conceived of as a single area for some time, but that doesn't have a ton of bearing on two modern nation states, neither of which control the whole region nor even officially claim the entire region.
Engaging with historical retrospectives on North Macedonia requires acknowledging the impact of the 1934 Comintern resolution. It significantly influenced the (forceful) development of Macedonian national identity. Thoughts?
Ignoring the 1934 Comintern resolution and CCCP/Soviet history overlooks a key factor in shaping current North Macedonian politics. #BalkanHistory en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_of_the_Comintern_on_the_Macedonian_question
MACEDONIAN IDENTITY 25 CENTURIES from KING FILIP .
“[FYRO]Macedonian nationalism, as distinct from other South Slavic peoples is, moreover, a relatively new concept, introduced and encouraged by dictator Josip Tito, upon the creation of a separate Macedonian Republic within the Yugoslav federation in 1946. Prior to this, the area generally known as Vardarska banovina (the district of the Vardar river) was considered simply an extension of its southern Slavic neighbors, either Serbians to the north, or Bulgarians to the east. Slavs arrived in the Balkan Peninsula only in the 6th century AD, and therefore have nothing to do with the well-known classical kingdom of Macedonia, which dominated the rest of Greece, the Near East, Egypt and Persia under Alexander the Great in the 4th century BCE.”
Encyclopedia of World Geography, Volume 1, 2006, p.564:
It was encouraged by Tito and the communist east more broadly for a variety of reasons, but he certainly didn't come up with Macedonianism. IMRO or some permutation (VMRO claims descent from IMRO) existed before communist yugoslavia.
@@professorquarter It existed from the late 19th - early 20th century only for a very limited number of educated elites who up until that point hadn't even created a concrete idea of what it really meant to be "macedonian". Only during Tito's rule "macedonism" reached the average person who according to numerous sources up until that point self identified as Bulgarian, Serb or Greek...
@@professorquarter Tito ? ? .....
u titov endek.
So they are the Former Yugoslavic Republic Of Macedonia again
MAKEDONIJA HAVE NAME 30 CENTURIES ! ! !
If North Macedonia decides to ditch the Prespa Agreement, some folks in Greece might take this as proof that the far-right was right all along-that the agreement really wasn't in Greece's best interest. This could give far-right groups a boost, especially in Northern Greece where these identity issues are hot-button topics. We'd likely see this issue pop up a lot in upcoming election campaigns, with far-right parties playing up nationalistic feelings to rally more support.
It’s not Far Right Greeks who have been screaming for years that the Prespa Agreement was a disgrace, it’s GREEKS that have been screaming so even before the agreement was signed. Every single poll the last two months before the signing, showed that more than 80% of Greeks were against it, because we felt we were selling off a hugely important part of our history, especially us up North, in Macedonia. The fact that the Far Right has indeed kept the issue at the top of their agenda ever since (I’m guessing mostly for political reasons, and not because they are… fantastic patriots), does not mean that it’s just a bunch of neo-Nazis who oppose the agreement and dream of seeing it annulled.
That’s actually what disgusted me the most back in 2018; the government not only closed their ears to a whole country YELLING against the agreement, but they even went that far as to call all of us who were against it, “extremists”! “Extremists”!!!!! That’s the very definition of having to prove that you are not an elephant...
@@dibaskg After your logic, 80% of the Macedonians from North Macedonia were against the Prespa agreement too. Then we can call them extremist too. If both sides are unhappy, then the agreement must be good thing.
@@dibaskg
A good agreement is the agreement where both sides are equally dissatisfied
It's always been absurd that anybody in Greece thinks it's any of their business what another country calls itself.
@@RedXlV MAKEDONIJA NAME 30 CENTURIES ! !
you...Red.
Give it back to the Agean Macedonians and rename all the places and city's and towns that were renamed by the Greeks.
No one in macedonia wanted to change the name to north macedonia, how can you. Change your name when your not north macedonia but just macedonia, macedonians do not jave territorial claims of aegean macedonia as macedonia is in nato and proceeds to EU and is a friendly small country I've been there 2 times
I like how the Prespa Agreement is described as a "peace agreement."
It seems like war.....war never changes.
Not a single person likes it. It is selling away Ellenic heritage and history. Trump should give them Washington ot New York if he wants these people in NATO.
no it is not
That was a mistake. When Macedonia declared independence there was no war with Greece.
@@Stefan_Mileski Macedonia IS Greece
@@Anastasis-is-here Germany is France?
Very well informed indeed. Two remarks only.
1. When the country was officially under the name FYROM, in all official documents of EU, UN and USA were referred to as "Macedonian", as opposed to today that is "North Macedonian".
2. The current government which voted against the Prespa agreement, never finalized the remaining aspects of the deal.
You should have emphasized these more. It is very important for understanding both the importance of the agreement for Greece and today's North Macedonian reaction. The deal was a half win for both countries. Finally there were agreements for the Greek air force to patrol North Macedonian borders, a deal that was never applied from the current government of Mitsotakis.
@@pegasus5794 you seem to be mistaken, under the agreement, we get to keep the ethnicity/nationality as Macedonian, it is implied in the agreement itself that adjectives such as North Macedonian/N.Macedonian are a mistake and shouldn’t be used. Now if you ask me, the main part of the agreement is the “protection” of the Macedonian ethnicity’s right of self-declaration is broken worldwide, including in Greece(news articles having “North Macedonian”, even though it was agreed otherwise), then having bogus arguments over other articles is nonsense when the main issue is the increasing use of the adjective “North Macedonian”.
@@Scorpio19110 MACEDONIAN IDENTITY 25 CENTURIES ! ! !
NM: They are just Bulgarians with an identity crisis with a 30% Albanian minority. Decedents of Slavs coming in the area on 6th century AD speaking Bulgarian (a slavic language), becoming part of Yugoslavia (Slavs as per name) claiming that they are decedents of Alexander the Great lived on 4th century BC spreading the Hellenic (ie Greek) civilization on the rest of the world of that time (1000 years before any Slav being there). Go figure.
Greece despite being EU member, being a stronger country and having the (ancient) historical right on its side made a very painful and I would say unfair compromise. We are fed up with them! If they want to follow the path of the lowest level of Balkan politics they are free.
Most likely the VMRO leaders are not just populists but also they may have personal interests... Russia tried hard for this deal not to happen and to avoid another ex soviet satellite falling into NATO.
PS
Something that was not expected from you: Big mistake / inaccuracy (or just bad phrasing??) at 2:20: The so called North Macedonia has nothing to do (even geographically) with the ancient Greek Ancient Kingdom of Macedonia
Not true since the place is called macedonia for ages the people living in the region are macedonians, Greece never controlled macedonia until1912
@@petar4968 Petar you are a Slav part of the Bulgarian nation. Be proud of that!
Your grandfather or great grand father identified themselves as Bulgarians. Simply because you have identity crisis and you have being a victim of nationalistc and communist propaganda being part of Yugoslavia fearing a greater Bulgaria and identifying you as "macedonian" you can not steal the Greek identity of ancient macedonia. You have no correlation to it not even geographically.
Native Americans (Indians) and (asian) Indians are both called Indians but it does not mean that they are related !
PS The Greek history does not start in 1912 ....
What are present day greeks? A combination of ethnic Albanians, Turks, Macedonians, Pomaks, Roma, Vlachs, Pakistani's, etc with Greek citizenship. When King Otto arrived in the village of Athens in the 1820's he only found ethnic Vlach and Albanians and said 'where are the greeks'? Most of the present day ethnic greeks in greek controlled Macedonia are post 1920's migrants from Turkey. There was no such thing as a 'ancient Greek Ancient Kingdom of Macedonia'. This is a figment of your imagination.
Bulgarians should also find a better name for themselves, considering they are not nomadic Turks.
@@BillOCoy I guess that you are annoyed of the 3000+ year continuation of Greek civilization, language and dna. Go to any DNA company and see for yourself the dna of the modern greeks.
Good video and a lot of truth in it..
And also should be known that after the balkan wars the part of Macedonia that is taken by Greece was in the following decades permanently cleaned from the macedonians in it, and it was colonised by greeks from nowadays Turkye, and the parody is that nowadays greeks objects to accept that we are macedonians and they claim that the colonists are the right macedonians... They can tell what ever they want we know we are Macedonians and will remain so...
Very superficial analysis. You don't mention anywhere that only a century ago there was no Macedonian nation, but Bulgarians from the region of Macedonia, who after 1912 in the state of Serbo-Croats were forcibly reborn as "Macedonians"
MACEDONIANS 25 CENTURIES ! ! !
Very well done analysis! Good job, I respect your work.
Thank you very much indeed!
Calling them Slavs and then correlating them to Alexander the Great is part of the problem. What kind of professor are you, exactly? Your claims are historically, linguistically and archaeologically false. Macedonias were and are Greek, by any definition of the word. Other comments in this thread also highlight the creation of North Macedonia and establish that it is unrelated to the ancient kingdom.
And, again, this is the whole problem. I didn’t say they were Greeks. I specifically said the Macedonians speak a Slavic language. I also noted Serb and Bulgarian rule. But if I didn’t include the bit about ancient Macedonia and Alexander I would leave people confused about why Greece was upset. More to the point, I guarantee that you have been furious that I was whitewashing the country’s Hellenistic heritage. This is the whole problem. You can’t win on this issue. Everyone will immediately see bias. I made this video to highlight that the new administration in Skopje is violating its agreement with Greece, and I just seem to be getting Greek angry that I tried to explain this issue in a way that outsiders would understand. Either North Macedonia has links with Alexander, and these should be explained, or it’s doesn’t, in which case people don’t underneath why Greece is unhappy.
@@JamesKerLindsay Are we going to completely ignore their signaling? If what you claim is true, then why do North Macedonians use the star of Vergina and Alexander the Great's imagery to promote their historical ties with their use of the word "Macedonia"? Have you perhaps considered any bias on your part?
You don't have to be Greek to be reasonable. This is merely geohistorical appropriation akin to calling the Persian Gulf the "Arab Gulf". NM is a newly established country looking for an identity, that much is clear to everyone. I'm surprised that an academic would even suggest bias given the historical facts of the matter. North Macedonia seemingly wants to harken back to some abstract Hellenistic past for its benefit, without regard to the claim's utter lack of veracity. Hence, it's only natural for anyone familiar with the historical background to object such falsehoods. It's intellectually insulting to suggest anyone but the NMs have anything to gain by doing this.
TL;DR: It's a matter of principle. You can't steal other people's stuff and call it your own
PS: I'm not Greek
@@barc0deblankblank ''It's intellectually insulting to suggest anyone but the NMs have anything to gain by doing this. ''
thank you, fully agree. Is he a professor or a propaganda minion on a misinformation campaign?
@@pop-n-rock........... jedi kokice.
& & &.
professor you have probably confused history northern Macedonia never had an empire ancient Macedonia was the empire which was Greek so don't say northern Macedonia again when you refer to the empire of filipos and Alexander the Great
MAKEDONIJA 25 CENTURIES. Greece 190 years.
*YOU'RE A LIAR. You deliberately omit the fact that Greece was found guilty by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) for breaching the Interim Accord (1995), by blocking the NATO accession of the former yugoslav republic of Macedonia in 2008. The country then filed a lawsuit against Greece before the ICJ and won the case, but the ICJ was unable to impose penaulties on Greece. According to the Interim Accord (1995), the then-Rep. of Macedonia agreed to remove an Ancient Macedonian symbol from its flag and allegedly irredentist clauses from its constitution, in order to apease Greece, while Greece agreed that it wouldn't block the Rep. of Macedonia from joining intl organizations so long as it used the appellation set out in the UN - former yugoslav republic of Macedonia. The R. of Macedonia respected this, but she was blocked by Greece anyway. Also, the idea for a separate macedonian identity emerged long before Socialist Yugoslavia - read about the IMRO's ideas for Independent Macedonia in the late 19th and early 20th c., about Krste Petkov Misirkov (1874 - 1926) etc.*
Greek Macedonia's history started thousands of years ago and not from Tito's time
It is clear that your " Macedonia" is fabricated
Your country has signed an agreement , respect your signature or face the consequences
2011 Sud vo HAG donese odluka : MAKEDONIJA e so IME MAKEDONIJA.
2018 Nikola Dimitrov stori krivic'no delo. minister nema ingerencii da menuva
IME na MAKEDONIJA .
أنا بحب فديوهاتك جدًا وبستفيد منها، شكرا على المجهود☘️
Thank you so much! I really appreciate the kind comment.
Amazing and insightful video, James!
It’s amazing how something so trivial like a similar name for outsiders be a divisive and thorny topic for governments to even consider ending peace deals. But it is nevertheless understandable to a certain extent.
I think North Macedonia will eventually have to accept the validity of the peace agreement while pushing their identity assertions to its limit given integration with EU is better in the long term compared to being isolated or even dependent on alternatives like China or Russia.
Keep up the amazing work, James! Hope you’ll consider covering more on Southeast Asia in your list.
Imagine that you are a Slav, that you speak Slavic, that your name is Slavic, that you understand the Bulgarian language because it is the same, and yet you say that you are Macedonian
Imagine that you a Slav, that you speak Slavic, that your name is Slavic, that you understand the Bosnia/Croatian/Serbian/Montenegrin language because it is the same, and yet you say you are Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian/Montenegrin. Would you would say this to a Bosnian/Croat/Serb/Montenegrin?
@@JamesKerLindsayYou need to read a little more, these Slavs are claiming the be the descendants of the Macedonians which were and still are Hellenic. They should claim to be descendants of the ancestors, not the ancestors of another ethnic group.
@@Euro.Patriot IN MAKEDONIJA --- MACEDONIANS ! ! !
slav.... sing a ee.
Prof. Ker-Lindsay, I have been following your videos for a relatively long time now and I usually really appreciate your input. However, regarding this one, I have to express my objections to the way you framed the topic. The sentence "North Macedonia has an extraordinarily long and rich history" is, for a fact, incorrect. "The TERRITORY of North Macedonia has an extraordinarily long and rich history" is something completely different. I have seen how you respond to other comments and you are surprisingly hard in your stance, considering a person with your experience and knowledge should know better than to not pick his words extremely carefully when tackling a complex topic as this. The populations of both Greece and Bulgaria will never agree to recognize "North Macedonia" as what the so-called Macedonians imagine they are.
Thank you for the comment. Point well taken. I have slightly edited that section to remove the word "North" to avoid any confusion. Macedonia, as a region, has a long and rich history.
Thanks for the video professor. I think the good news is that the deal has been signed and the country’s name officially changed, so while politics and posturing continues, the largest and most obstructive issue has now been removed from the table.
A couple of notes:
• for clarity’s sake, in future videos about this topic it might be a good idea to start the history by saying “the region” (rather than “Macedonia”) has a long history”, avoiding any implication that the current political entity is related to past Macedonian polities, and perhaps as part of the history add that over time the region became majority Slavic-speaking, though with other significant minorities.
• although known in international fora, the Olympics, etc as the FRYOM, the country’s official name was always simply the Republic of Macedonia, until the recent agreement that saw it renamed to Republic of North Macedonia
Thanks as always for the video!
If Greece decides to call you Pro Jane would you go online and announce it? No? Why not? You are calling one country the name chosen for it by another country Greece. I'm just an onlooker and you people look ridiculous? Can you not see that? Greece has a lot of terrible social problems it should do something about that instead of bullying other countries. I prefer to respect the country and call it what IT chooses.
The problem is bigger than that. According to the "Treaty of Bucarest" - 1913, when Macedonia was unjustly and tragically divided between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia, it was proclaimed by that same Treaty that Macedonia's territory was to be "used" / to be in possesion by these 3 countries during 100 years. Once the 100 years passed, they are obliged to give the occupied lands back.
Except that, in 2013, a year of the giving back the occupied lands, Greece and Bulgaria refused and since then they are creating problems to Macedonia, inventing the problem of the "name"....
Bukures't 1913 dogovor veli : po 100 godini Grcija vrak'a Egejska Makedonija.
Bulgaria na MAKEDONIJA vrak'a Pirinska Makedonija.
Srbija na MAKEDONIJA vrak'a Vardarska Makedonija .
@@christismystrength6521 There is no such specification in the Treaty of Bucharest. If you claim it otherwise, please provide the passage. I am Romanian by the way, and I have had access to the original version of the treaty. The treaty never even mentions the existence of a Macedonian nation.
1913 dogovor veli : po 100 godini Grcija vrak'a Egejska Makedonija.
Bulgaria na MAKEDONIJA vrak'a Pirinska Makedonija.
Srbija na MAKEDONIJA vrak'a Vardarska Makedonija .
By George Zarkadakis
As a kid growing up in Greece in the 1970s, I had to learn not one, but three Greek languages. First, it was the demotic parlance of everyday life, the living words people exchanged at the marketplaces and in the streets. But at school, we were taught something different: It was called "katharevousa" - "cleansed" - *a language designed by 19th-century intellectuals* to purify demotic from the cornucopia of borrowed Turkish, Slavic and Latin words. Finally, we had to study ancient Greek, the language of our classical ancestors, the heroes of Marathon and Thermopylae. We were supposed to learn "The Iliad" and "The Odyssey" in the original, by heart, in case some time machine transported us back to Homeric times. As it happened, most of us managed to learn none of the three, ending up mixing them in one grammatically anarchic jargon that communicated mostly the confusion of our age.
Thank you Prof for the video and for speaking the truth. Macedonia was and always will be.
North Macedonia is quite an interesting country, they are essentially Bulgarians that Serbians convinced into believing that they are ancient Greeks. Much of the claiming of ancient (Greek) Macedonian history only began under Yugoslav rule or independence. I guess it's the only way that the state could form an identity for its people as a nation, similar to Western Europe during the rise of state-sponsored nationalism over a century ago. Such a silly thing to threaten EU membership over too
Not exactly. The Serbs before 1945 were adamant in convincing them they were Serb (many were; Bulagrian and Serbian exist on the South Slavic language continuum and many villages in what is now Macedonia spoke Serbian, although most spoke Bulgarian).
The communists in Yugoslavia were not Serb dominated and the idea of a seperate Macedonian identity was designed to weaken Serb influence within Yugoslavia by having another equal republic made from Serb territory like Montenegro. By seperating Montenergo and Macedonia (and Bosnia) from the Serbian political entity within Yugoslavia you went from a large political sudivision that massively overshadowed the Croats and Slovenes to six total republics you could have some kind of accord between.
The Croats and Slovenes were dominated by the much larger Serb entity in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia which would have been untenable in a communist federation led by a non-serb. Keep in mind Tito was half Slovene half Croat.
As a Greek, it’s honestly kinda flattering how much they love and glorify Greek history despite claiming it’s not Greek whatsoever lol. I believe they are biggest victims here and I wish them all the best.
You have no idea what you're talking about, please never mention North Macedonia ever again.
@@Highball1417 North Macedonia.
@@chegayvara1136 MACEDONIANS ARE MACEDONIANS.
jedi c'varke.
This is not a "naming dispute" but an identity dispute which manifests itself through the refusal to accept the new name. The identity of ethnic Macedonians claims continuity from the kingdom of Ancient Macedonia and rejects Greek claims over that heritage, which as you said is ridiculous as it was a Hellenistic state. The name solution was designed to disentangle and separate the identity from ancient Macedonia which rightfully belongs to Greece. Yet when you do your history lesson you start from ancient Macedonia meaning you trace continuity from Alexander the Great which is exactly what ethnic Macedonians do and is the source of the conflict.
The name game regarding FYROM has gone from absurd to almost obscene levels of duplicity and betrayal...
First off, it's time to stop all these pathetic attempts to "re-write" history. Macedonia and Alexander's legacy was
and always will be Greek, carved in ancient stone and marble for all the world to see and that NO AMOUNT of
pathetic geo-political games can change - let alone erase..
The FORMER Yugoslav (so-called) "republic" was and, unless some common sense prevails, always will be a sad state of affairs.
The main reason that the ridiculous "claim" by the bulgaro-skopjianovski leftovers of FYROM has not succeeded in hi-jacking
the ancient Greek name of Macedonia is that, despite all the cynical and hypocritical "realpolitik" games going on in the region,
there are REAL world issues and historical facts that cannot be avoided.
This is why all the "angry demands" and "claims" by these hi-jackers of history which, when seen all together,
only manage to contradict themselves or end up in "indignant" yet baseless and historically absurd "arguments"
and fake statues, costumes and "symbols".
But what is even more absurd and shameful is that any self respecting person or "organization" would give any of these claims any credence.
It is also why the UN and EU are - in the very least - still insisting on a compromise on the name (which is far more
than this fabricated mish-mash of a country deserves) as regrettably, it is deemed that such a settlement will serve
other interests in the region.
Greece though, for historical but more crucially future geo political reasons, should NOT compromise on the "new name"
and how it is used. Given the current "attitude" in the FYROM, they should now even renounce this fraudulent "treaty".
It remains a sad state of affairs when a bunch of bulgaro-skopjianovskis - that are mostly a left over from the Balkan wars
and Tito's clumsy attempts of territorial gains and access to the Mediterranean sea - try to hijack the ancient Greek name of Macedonia
in a pathetic attempt to give themselves a false "identity".
Something which was clearly exposed by then US Secretary of State Edward R. Stettinius in 1944, stating in no uncertain terms that:
"This (US) government considers talk of Macedonian “nation,” Macedonian “fatherland,” or Macedonian “national consciousness”
to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for
aggressive intentions against Greece." This reality remains even if there has been a shift in some quarters of crude US "policy" in the region.
Subsequently, this sad and latest episode of these displaced Bulgarians - who also have to deal with a large Albanian minority
with their own agendas - is more a case of 'the mouse that roared' (with the cynical "support" of those with rather devious agendas in the region)
than a case of legitimate "claims" to any so-called "ethnic" identity.
Slavs, by the way, did not even arrive in the region until AFTER 600AD and - as their first 'president' Gligorov rightly said - have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
to do with Alexander and Macedonia!
Further more it should also be made clear that even Bulgaria - despite it's past and present agendas - doesn't recognize
the existence of "slavo-macedonians" in the so-called republic!!! - quite rightly considering all FYROM "skopjianovskis" as Bulgarians.
On the other hand, the heritage, cities and monuments of Alexander were, are and always will be GREEK, carved in ancient stone and marble
that no devious or pathetic attempts to re-write history - or any brown nosing those who indulge in so-called "great games" in the region - can change, let alone erase.
If the "supporters" of the FYROM genuinely want a solution to the serious problems and stability of this "country" and the Balkans,
it is time to put a stop to this nonsense and deal with the realities of not only the region but also the very serious and very REAL WORLD
social-economic and environmental problems that we ALL have to face in THIS century.
Just look at the fracking hell of a mess the ponzi/casino "economies" of the so-called "united" states of america and king-CONNED-om are in - AGAIN!!!
Given the relentless and ever increasing climatic disasters, it would also be wise to remember that Mother Nature does NOT do "bail outs" or "quantitative easing"...
Northern Greece is a territory gifted to the Greek state by the British Empire and the French at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century, The same powers helped Greece retain it after WW2. All in an effort to weaken Turkey and diminish Russia's influence in the region. How many thousands of Macedonians were forced to flee the territory that is now Northern Greece? Greek refugees from Asia Minor were settled there in their place.
If these guys are so obsessed with claiming the heritage of Alexander and ancient Macedonia then they should just stop speaking Slavic and adopt Greek, they are only ridiculing themselves by their weird claims.
MACEDONIANS 25 CENTURIES ! ! ! @ adopt .... your goose.
It's quite important to mention that when you talk about "the history of Macedonia", it means the history of the region Macedonia (not the country), which includes the territories in North Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece, potentially in Serbia and Albania as well.
Furthermore, President Gordana instead of using "President of the Republic of North Macedonia", she said: "President of Macedonia", which is kinda concerning too.
na istok od MAKEDONIJA E PIRINSKA MAKEDONIJA.
na jug od MAKEDONIJA --- EGEJSKA MAKEDONIJA ! ! !
Just a few corrections. The new Macedonian president signed the Presidential oath with the formal new name the 'Republic of North Macedonia'. However, she verbally didn't say 'Republic of North Macedonia' when repeating the oath. Instead, she just said Macedonia instead of 'Republic of North Macedonia'. It was the common practice of previous President Pendarovski to verbally say either Macedonia or North Macedonia and Greece never complained. There is nothing wrong with this. It's like a politician from the United States saying America instead of the United States of America or a British politician saying Britain instead of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. This is just a storm in a tea cup, just another Greek politician being a typical drama queen ahead of elections.
You forgot to mention that after the name was changed in the parliament contrary to the will of the opinion as expressed in the referendum, there was a veto by France to stop the opening of EU negotiations with Macedonia. The French then found another country to do their dirty work in Bulgaria. The Russian supported Bulgarian President was happy to oblige by carrying out his Russian and French orders.
Thanks. I did in fact explicitly cover the referendum and noted that it failed to receive the required threshold. As for the name, I accept that people may make mistakes occasionally. It happens. And they may even use a shorthand. Britain is wrong, it should be the United Kingdom, but many politicians use it. But the new president was making a very clear political point at a crucial moment. She knew exactly what she was doing and the effects that it would have. It would be as if a new King used Britain in his coronation after having been given the words United Kingdom to say. This would send out a very clear and powerful message.
@@JamesKerLindsay Yes, you mentioned the referendum. You didn't mention that following the name change, France was the first country to veto the start of Macedonia's EU negotiations. You only mentioned Bulgaria's veto, which followed the French veto. The real problem for Greece wasn't not the name, the problem was that an independent Macedonian state might start pushing for the minority rights of the ethnic Macedonians in Greece. Konstantinos Mitsotakis (the father of the current greek PM) said that he 'doesn't have a problem with the name but doesn't want to create a second minority problem in Greece' (he considered the ethnic Turks to be the first minority problem).
@@Stefan_Mileski There will never be a minority issue. The majority of Slav-speakers in Greece descend from Patriarchists who supported the Greek cause over the Bulgarian cause. The Rainbow Party that claims to represent this so-called minority has never participated in a Greek national election, and it's no accident that the party's founder was educated in Belgrade during the communist era. The idea of Greece recognizing a Macedonian minority within a Macedonian majority is as ridiculous as it sounds, and no outside power will ever attempt to impose that on Greece. A few supporters in a handful of Florina villages (a very tiny portion of Macedonia) can get Rainbow funding from some lunatics in Canada and Australia, but that's about it.
It's like the President of the United States repeating the oath by saying "President of Tijuana" or "President of Ontario".
@@gnazlis No, its like the American President saying that they are the President of America.
The so called Greeks that live in today’s Greek Macedonia are not native to this region. After the greek civil war they were brought from asia minor and have displaced the native macedonians, who were banished by the greek state. Also, they stole their properties. This is the main reason why Greece is so vocal abot this seemingly nonsensical issue. They don’t want you to find out the truth. It has nothing to do with whether we are descendents of the ancient macedonian kingdom. I still have relatives in agean macedonia and hopefully the truth will come to light soner than later
Save your propgnda for yourselves and respect what you've signed
The truth is in front of you but you've been told so many lies
In the 1800s the greek orthodox church hellenized a lot of vlach, albanians and macedonians into "greeks". After the balkan wars and the greek civil war they also assimilitated and hellenized macedonians in aegean macedonia. They had to import christian turks from turkey and place these "greeks" in aegean macedonia to make it "greek".
What a joke that people believe modern greeks are direct descendats of ancient greeks. The romanians, armenians and egyptian coptics have more in commen than ancient greeks than "modern" greeks
@@Yalbou I've answered above
Genetic studies prove it and historical evidence prove the Greekness of Macedonia
Btw Vlachs are Greeks
Hahaha you are a little bit confused....
Greek civil war 1945-1949.
The Greek populations that you mention arrived in the region from Asia Minor in 1922!
Please study more!!
@@SGHowe I don’t have to study, I have first hand experience, unfortunately
I still can't understand why a Slavic people want to adapt a non-Slavic name and its heritage. There is no linguistic nor historic link there. As a Greek, I wouldn't like my country to be called South Bulgaria or, even worst, just Bulgaria. Anyway, a deal was struck in good faith and I thought it was behind us. Now instead of putting their energy into growth and prosperity, they latch on an identity that isn't theirs in a self-destructive manner...
Wr haven't addopted anything. It's always been our name. I was born in 1981 and ever since I can remember the name of the country has been Macedonia, tha language was macedonian and we've all benn Macedonians. The same is true about my parents who were born in the 1950s. Nobody chooses/adopts their name. It's something that is inherited frome our ancestors. Or maybe you'd like to explain how your ancestors changed their name from Romei to Helleni in late 18th century?
The great paradox was that Greece created the modern state of NM, just to grab some more land from Ottomans.
I am Macedonian, and I can answer you that question.
Why is your name Gnazlis? (or whatever your real name is), is it because you wanted to adapt something? No, it is because you were given that name far earlier than you could ever choose.
Same thing with Macedonia. Our name comes from our land. And our land has been called Macedonia, for over 2000+ years.
And we are very proud of our Slavic side, we conquered all of Europe.
@@jean-luc_picard It was Serbia, not Greece, that grabbed the territory that became modern-day NM.
@@joejohnson6327 MAKEDONIJA 25 VEKA vo JUZ'NA EVROPA.
ti.... u cigli.
1)Alexander the Great participated in the ancient Olympics, you had to be Greek to do this.
2) He was tutored by Aristotle (another Greek Macedonian) in Greek.
3) The House of Macedon claimed to be descendants of the Argead Dynasty
4) Macedonians had Greek names and spoke a dialect of Greek, spread Greek culture NOT slavic or bulgarian..
All of you who claim the Ancient Macedonians were anything but Greek make HOLLOW and TRIVIAL claims!
ALEXANDER IS MACEDONIAN ! ! ! @ you.... ?
Pozdrav braćo Makedonci iz Beograda. Nikada sjeverna, samo Makedonija 🇷🇸❤🇲🇰
Kosovo Srbija FOREWER GOOD BLESS
Braco? Servian I presume? LOL read the book "the war is coming back" to see how you treated them as "braco"not that long ago...
@@thehobby-smith Treated who?
And you are Vulgarian I presume?
@@goranstamenkovic407 First read it then talk...
@@thehobby-smith I presume that is from some Tatarian “writer”
Tnx but no thanks I have better things to do than read Mongolian propaganda
".. do not forget Greece, Alexander ..It was for her sake that you launched your whole expedition, to add Asia to Greece .."
Arrian [Anabasis of Alexander 4.11.7]
«.. τῆς Ἑλλάδος μεμνῆσθαί σε ἀξιῶ, ὦ Αλέξανδρε ἧς ἕνεκα ὁ πᾶς στόλος σοι ἐγένετο, προσθεῖναι τὴν Ἀσίαν τῇ Ἑλλάδι ..»
Ἀρριανός [Ἀλεξάνδρου Ἀνάβασις 4.11.7]
@ Elladi ? ........ jooj srb. ~ c ~ lj ~ v .
@@tatjanavelkova5814 Ouga bouga 🐵🤡🤣
While your previous anti-Bulgarian video could potentially be construed as a semi-ignorant attempt at presenting a "balanced" view on the issue, this one makes your support for blatant, ultranationalistic historical revisionism quite clear. But no matter how much propagandists might try to change it, the international academic community is also quite clear.
"Macedonia was also an attempt at a multicultural society. Here the fragments are just about holding together, although the cement that binds them is an unreliable mixture of propaganda and myth. The Macedonian language has been created, some rather misty history involving Tsar Samuel, probably a Bulgarian, and Alexander the Great, almost certainly a Greek, has been invented, and the name Macedonia has been adopted. Do we destroy these myths or live with them? Apparently these radical Slavic factions decided to live with their myths and lies for the constant amusement of the rest of the world!..."
T.J. Winnifrith, Shattered Eagles, Balkan Fragments, Duckworth, 1995
Well at least something seems to have brought the Greeks and Bulgarians together. And my previous video wasn’t in fact anti-Bulgarian. I say in all honesty that some of my best friends are Bulgarian. (No, really! 🙂) But it did highlight the utterly bizarre policies being followed by Bulgaria. If the Greek position was seen as vindictive, then the Bulgarian one is seen as incomprehensible. I still laugh at the fact that I had 6000 Bulgarian screaming abuse when I said that they didn’t know why exactly they were angry at the Macedonians and replying that they knew exactly what the problem was - only to get 6000 different answers. You can’t make that stuff up. I just put it down to the fact that Bulgarian nationalists don’t get let out of their box that often. The Serb, Albanian, Greek, Macedonian, and Turkish ones do. But not the Bulgarians. They all seemed so delighted to finally get their chance to rant at some ‘ignorant foreigner’ who didn’t understand them, or their history, or their culture. Sadly, you guys don’t get enough attention. But I was just glad to help. 😀
@@JamesKerLindsay Well both sides are right in their own version of events. The Greek side is right that FYROM, or North Macedonia, is historically appropriating personalities and aspects of history that belong to the ancient Hellenic people, of which modern Greeks are descended from. On the Bulgarian side, it is true that so called Macedonian language is a dialectical variation of Bulgarian that is almost 100% mutually intelligible. The difference between North Macedonian language and Bulgarian language is the same as Moldavian and Romanian language. The insistence that they are different though is a result of decades or external interference, social and cultural engineering. Just as the Tsarist and then the Soviets came up with the idea of a Moldovan nation and language, distinct from Romanian in an effort to divide and conquer, so did the Serbs and later Tito with the so called Macedonians of FYROM.
Modern day FYROM, on North Macedonia is the result of a lie being repeated tens of thousands of times, or millions of times, until people accepted it to be the truth. And when generations are born and educated to accept a lie as truth and allow it to shape their own identity as a nation, then I can understand why it is hard to face reality. But just because you accept to be deceived by a lie, doesn't mean that the rest have to accept these deception to be forced upon them.
Why did this Italian linguist write for the existence of the Macedonian language 500 years ago
1539 Theseus Ambrogio Albonese (1469-1540/41) is an Italian humanist from the period of the Italian Renaissance, of Christian (Catholic) and a harbinger of Orientalism. His most important work is the book Chaldaicam linguam, Syriacam, atque Armenicam, & decem alias linguas. Published in 1539, in which the church psalms are translated from several languages, and the languages of the time and the alphabet used by the nations as a means of written communication are noted. , Syrian Arabic, Hebrew... they also include Macedonian, which is listed as a separate language different from Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian*
*You can freely find that book of his in the original on the net*
There is no commenter here, because before the fact both Pontic Greeks and Tatar Bulgarians are silent
@@Gotze.Delchev.Reborn MAKEDONCI 25 VEKA.
q q .
“[FYRO]Macedonian nationalism, as distinct from other South Slavic peoples is, moreover, a relatively new concept, introduced and encouraged by dictator Josip Tito, upon the creation of a separate Macedonian Republic within the Yugoslav federation in 1946. Prior to this, the area generally known as Vardarska banovina (the district of the Vardar river) was considered simply an extension of its southern Slavic neighbors, either Serbians to the north, or Bulgarians to the east. Slavs arrived in the Balkan Peninsula only in the 6th century AD, and therefore have nothing to do with the well-known classical kingdom of Macedonia, which dominated the rest of Greece, the Near East, Egypt and Persia under Alexander the Great in the 4th century BCE.”
Encyclopedia of World Geography, Volume 1, 2006, p.564
@@Gotze.Delchev.Reborn "Until the late nineteenth century both outside observers and those Bulgaro-Macedonians who had an ethnic consciousness believed that their group, which is NOW two separate nationalities, comprised a SINGLE people, THE BULGARIANS. Thus the reader should IGNORE references to ethnic Macedonians in the Middle Ages which appear in some modern works. In the Middle Ages and into the nineteenth century, the term ‘Macedonian’ was used ENTIRELY in reference to a geographical region. Anyone who lived within its confines, regardless of nationality could be called a Macedonian."
The Early Medieval Balkans: a critical survey from the sixth to the late twelfth century By John Van Antwerp Fine, Page 37
@@vangelisskia214 Read your first constitution from 1827 to find out what you really are then you can talk what you “think” for other
The first constetution of Greece, 1827.
A Greek is a Christian.
??? -> 4. Provinces of Greece are all those that were taken and will be taken by weapons against the Ottoman Dynasty.
1) -> 6. Greeks are:
2) -> a. All those indigenous people of the Greek State who believe in Christ.
3) -> b. All those, believers in Christ, who under the Ottoman slavery, came or they will come to the Greek State to struggle or to reside in it.
4) -> e. All those aliens, who come and enrol as citizens.
NOTE: To become a Greek, it was enough to be a Christian!
So regardless if you are a Albanian, Turk, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Gypsy or Vlach, you are a Greek if you were a Christian and born in the Greek state. So what makes them the 'direct decendents of the ancient Hellens?'
YOU: Bulgarian by God, Macedonian by Tito
@@sirbobloblawsSaid ArvanitesAlbanoTurk which ancestors was forced to speak Koine in the middle of 19 century
@@GreatMK.Forever Said me, whose ancestors destroyed most of your Bulgarian VMRO ancestors in the Florina area and sent the rest of them to majka Bulgaria during the population exchange. Also, Koine didn't exist in the 19th century. It was modern Greek by them. Nice try, Srbomanche.
@@sirbobloblawsmodern Greek pfffffff 😂 ok Albanakis if you think so
@@mydogIvanBGisn’t your second language Albanian 😂
Professor, I’m struggling to understand the part of the video that is pointing out the Roman territory of Macedonia also included Ancient Macedonian history beforehand. Is this to point out why modern Macedonians should want uphold the Prespa in some way? Or is this to show people (especially many Greeks) that North Macedonia does somewhat have a connection to the ancient kingdom so they should stop being so stubborn about the name? Or maybe you’re just merely informing us the historical background so people understand where the name dispute stems from, and calling it “rich” in an effort to satisfy both sides? I genuinely don’t know.
It is to show why Greece is unhappy about the appropriation of Greek history. Frankly, if I hadn’t included it, there would have been a lot of angry Greek viewers arguing that I had whitewashed the Greek heritage of Macedonia. It is a no win situation. And I think it possible to say that Macedonia, however defined, has a very rich history - a highly contentious rich history. That’s the problem.
@@JamesKerLindsay Thank you. That makes sense. I think because of the way your video transitioned from North Macedonia to the Macedonian territory, a lot of people are completely misinterpreting this part as you stating something like “the unique Hellenistic history of the modern country of North Macedonia is where the history of Alexander/Macedon belongs (not really Greece despite being Hellenic)”. I believe this misunderstanding is 10 times more likely to get rise out of Greek viewers, history buffs, etc. than whitewashing allegations.
@@universetraveler5826 MACEDONIAN HISTORY 25 CENTURIES.
Greece 190 years.
@@tatjanavelkova5814 North Macedonian history, 30 years. Greek history, 3600 years+
MAKEDONIJA EXIST 25 CENTURIES. Greece 190 years.
You said that ancient Macedonia is Hellenic and that people of North Macedonia speak Slavic language.
As a diplomat do you acknowledge the propaganda people of North Macedonia use in order to usurp the history of Greek people?
That propaganda is Russian creation who wanted through panslavism to control the ports of original Macedonia and make a fleet to confront western powers.
What do you know about all that? Have you studied it? And what do you think is the best solution nowadays?
"the country's ancient history" ??? the country has no ancient history. Get your facts strait.
So, why was Greece so determined to ensure that the Hellenistic era was recognised under the agreement? The territorial history of every modern country stretches back long before the country existed. This should be beyond contestation. Indeed, by your logic, Greece has no claim to its ancient history. I readily accept the Roman heritage of Britain without claiming that Britain was Rome. Let’s not be so unduly touchy about all this. The country that is North Macedonia has a long history. North Macedonia is a new country.
The difference is that Romans were Romans not British and ancient Macedonians were Greeks not Slavs
indeed. And I’m not disputing or undermining that. I specifically said that the modern Macedonians speak a Slavic language. It’s just sad that a lot of commenters seem to want to make inferences that simply weren’t there! This issue really does bring out the very worst in some Greeks. Το λέω ως κάποιος που έχει ζήσει στην Ελλάδα και μιλάει ελληνικά!
@@JamesKerLindsay im sure it does. Its a very sensitive matter for Greeks and their history - heritage.
@@archon1972......
MACEDONIANS 25 CENTURIES ARE MACEDONIANS ! ! ! ! !
Ethic Macedonians were Greeks, hence following Alexander's conquest the Hellenistic period began. North Macedonians are ethnic Bulgarians , Albanians, and Gypsy. They have zero connection to the original Macedonians.
MACEDONIANS ARE MACEDONIANS ! ! ! @rodizlo.
@@tatjanavelkova5814 according only to the commi Tito ONLY!!
@@rrodizio5298 MAKEDONSKI NAROD 25 VEKA ! !
Tito... u endek.
As much as the Prespa Agreement hurt, a large majority of Macedonians were ready to accept it and move on with their path to the EU. Opinions towards Greece also started getting better. However, the biggest problem in this case is not Greece but Bulgaria. After making one of the hardest decisions, the country and its people were faced with yet another blockade entirely based on Bulgaria's nationalistic claims to Macedonia, similar to those of Russia when it comes to Ukraine. The EU for some reason decided to ignore the Copenhagen Criteria and fully supported Bulgaria. For Macedonians this was extremely threatening as Bulgaria's claims touch on the country's sovereignty, the right of self-determination of the nation, as well as the existence of a language that is internationally recognized by the UN. This made EU support in the country plummet to an all time low and now most of the people in the country don't see the EU as the promised union that shares European values of democracy and fundamental rights. Sadly, this took a toll on the Prespa agreement as EU membership is no longer seen as a reality for the country.
So in other words, you somewhat, somehow settled your dispute with Greece, a dispute which lasted for 30+ years, and then because Bulgaria was not as open to negotiating, and this action slowed down all progress towards EU integration, you decided to say to Greece: screw you! I don’t care about Prespa, I will go back to what I did before, which then pissed off Greece, and has the potential to ruin every aspect of good relations that has been trying to be built in the past 6 years. I honestly don’t get it. Just settle your disputes with the Bulgarians. You had the golden opportunity to finally make a friend in your neighbourhood and now you’ll go back to another era of isolation
Bother Greece and Bulgaria were right in the case of North macedonia.
@@tm312th sheep will never have golden oppertunities to make friends with wolves. Both Bulgaria and Greece have a long history of negating our very existance, and what is happening in the last 30 years is a replay of actions that took place in the late 19th and early 20th centry. We are very weary of both Greeks and Bulgarians.
@@Petelko2695 And I don’t blame them, judging by your country’s actions. Neither of them laid claims on your lands however. I’m sure if you stop appropriating their history and claiming parts of their soil as yours, they will happily get along with you. Don’t forget that Greece and Bulgaria were staunch enemies in the past, but were able to bury the hatchet and soon the won’t even be border control between them.
@@tm312th in fact, they do claim our land. Bulgaria claims Macedonia, and has occupied it twice, and committed terrible war crimes in the process. The last occupation in WWII is within our living memory. The narrative has always been that Macedonians are Bulgarians, and that argument has been the basis for pursuing its imperialist policies towards Macedonia. Russian does the same thing in Ukraine at the moment, fueled by the same narrative, that Ukrainians are Russians in delusion.
In 1913, Greece occupied the lion's share of Macedonia, a region that never had a Greek majority. Greece has spent the last 100 years assimilating its Macedonian Slavic population by force. The ones that would not assimilate have been expelled after the Greek Civil War in 1949. A good portion of the current population of The Republic of Macedonia has roots and relatives in Aegean Macedonia. These refugees never got the chance to reclaim the property that was taken away from them.
Greece does not want to allow a country called Macedonia to prosper on its border, as it fears that what little remains of Macedonian Slavic identity in Greece, might start identifying with this neighboring country. Probably there is no chance of this happening, as the assimilation is all but complete by now, but the Greek public is stuck with this ludicrous name position, and any party in government that tries to abandon it, is considered to be doing national treason.
So what are the hostile actions that our country has taken? Claiming a neighboring country's territory? Please, this is a common sport in the Balkans. Just google the following terms
Greater Albania
Bulgaria on three seas
Megali Idea
Greater Serbia
Also, I guess the next sin would be waving the 16 pointed sun flag, a symbol that is found throughout Macedonia, in archeological sites and on church frescoes.
Bonus song:
ua-cam.com/video/egPKUVJzvEU/v-deo.html
If you can't understand Bulgarian, the verse goes:
If somebody says that Bulgaria is small,
there are 8 more parts
that would make it whole
Sure, there are wild Macedonian claims that have no basis in reality, but if you knew the surroundings that we live in, you would come to learn that we are sheep among wolves.
This "professor" doesn't know anything about history. Ancient Macedonia was Greek. The current North Macedonians have literally nothing to do with the ancient GREEK Macedonia. You see now why greeks are upset ? The North Macedonians are trying to appropriate history that isn't theirs . If you are really a professor you should know this and mention it in your video more clearly.
Did you actually watch the video? Perhaps you missed the part at the start when I explicitly said that the Macedonians in Macedonia speak a South Slavic language. You may also have missed the bit when I said that the area came under Serb and Bulgarian (Slavic) rule, and that the Prespa agreement acknowledges the country’s Hellenistic and Slavic heritage. It is always really irritating when a viewer jumps in and condemn something I say because it isn’t said *exactly* as they want it to be said.
As for not knowing this issue, I know it as well as any foreigner can. Aside from specialising in Southeast Europe, I lived in Greece and have been a visiting scholar at the main university in North Macedonia. I am very fond of both countries, and was glad that they had reached a sensible conclusion to the issue, or so it seemed. You may put my qualifications in quotation marks, but I have earned them. But perhaps you’d like to tell us all your real name and your qualifications to discuss all this in a fair and objective manner? If you have any publications on the matter, I’d be happy to read them. :-)
I agree with you. I was expecting to hear a professor, and I heard a man who makes propaganda. He knows nothing about real history.
He should be disqualified if you ask me
Totally agree with you.
Someone who has studied even basic history in his entire life he knows all these.
The most disappointing for me is that I came here to hear a professor and his scientifical aspects on an important historic topic, and I heard a man spreading propaganda. Macedonia is Greek.
@@JamesKerLindsay We are not Greek nationalists as I have read in a comment you have done here. We are Greeks and we do not admit the others to play with our intelligence and our written history. We jave not bothered anyone but we dont accept the others to bother us. The fact that we react for our country's history, does not make as nationalists. Your comment was offensive.
The only purpose of the Prespes agreement was to enter Northern Monkeydonia into NATO and was fostered by the U.S and by Germany. It was never meant to be a real solution to the problem . They just kicked the can forward! Now its time for the next episode, however the job is done since N.M is part of NATO.
USA was rushing to surronding Serbia with NATO its reason they bring Montenegro and Macedonia to NATO with out referendums
Cope turk boy
So... Greece is actually South Macedonia?
That's a bit true actually, since greece occupied macedonia in 1912
@@petar4968 Where was your army in 1912? Oh yeah, they all volunteered for the Bulgarian army.
@@petar4968 SE" NAJUBAVO ! ! Tatjana od MAKEDONIJA
MAKEDONSKI NAROD 25 VEKA od KRAL FILIP ! ! !
We been Occupant for over 500 years from Turkey 🇹🇷 , Greece🇬🇷 , Serbia🇷🇸 and Albania🇦🇱. It’s about ime to leave us alone and give as a freedom . We are Original Macedonians🇲🇰and we want are Origimal name and language 🇲🇰❤️🙏🙏
MAKEDONSKA ISTORIJA 25 VEKA od FILIP KRAL NA MAKEDONIJA .
To the uninitiated, looking at this issue for the first time, it seems audacious for one country (or several) to require another country to change its name! On pain of not acceding to the EU or other associations.
It is a shame that there are irredentist entities like VMRO who do not recognize borders and territory in our day
Yeah it is, but what more audacious is renegading a treaty that already signed and ratified by both parties!
Hey dude, what are you talking about: “North Macedonians are speaking south Slavic language”!?!? The language is Bulgarian, the name of the country is Greek. This country is Soviet communist creation. But “south Slavic language…” Sure, USA and Canada are speaking Western European language, how about that?
The SFRY is not Soviet. Macedonia was given its modern identity by Lazar Kolisevski, member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia and the partisans that liberated Yugoslavia from Nazi filth.
MAKEDONCI 25 VEKA govorat Makedonski jazik ! ! ! ! !
You would think that North Macedonia, a small landlocked state needing development, would do everything possible to reasonably get along with and integrate with neighbors.
evidently you've never met the stubborn people of the Balkans
Getting along with your neighbours doesn't mean they can decide the name of your children.
@@BillOCoy Sure, names like Branko and Goran. Sounds like the Serbs name your children.
@@sirbobloblaws The Slavic language group is the largest language group in Europe. Deal with it.
@@BillOCoy I have little issue with Bulgarians, Serbs, Croats, Slovenians, Bosnians, and most others.
It is interesting how, in another video, you criticised Bulgaria for her veto while neglecting the fact that the Prespa Treaty is not the only treaty of N Macedonia.
In 2017, N Macedonia and Bulgaria signed Treaty for agreement and friendship.
N Macedonia agreed to form a joint committee with Bulgaria to resolve the language, historical and identity issues.
N Macedonia agreed to equalize the rights of ethnic Bulgarians with the other minorities in N Macedonia by including Bulgarians in Article 7 of its Constitution.
Note: this article includes Macedonians, Albanians, Serbs, Wallachians, Turks and Bosniaks.
See ?
Even the 800 Bosniaks are mentioned.
But in Skopje they still pretend as if not even a single Bulgarian lives there.
Now I hope that the author of this video will somehow understand Bulgaria and her position.
It is rather hypocritical to support Greece and criticise Bulgaria on holding the same position on the same problems - it is not about the name. The name is just a pretext for further territorial claims, theft of history and chauvinism.
Not really. The Greek position is understandable to outsiders - even if they disagree. The Bulgarian position is utterly incomprehensible - even to Bulgarians.
@@JamesKerLindsay
Not really.
The Bulgarian position is understandable for all Bulgarians.
And I do not refer to the wild, raw nationalism.
Even the pragmatic, modern way of thinking presumes equality of human rights, lack of territorial demands, non-discrimination by ethnicity, etc.
Western people, most of them, don't even know that Macedonia is a geographical region with 3 parts located in 3 different countries.
Western people don't even know that N Macedonians call Aegean and Pirin Macedonia "temporarily occupied".
The avoudance of "North" is because N Macedonians claim that all of Macedonia is theirs.
If Greece has the right to stand for its Aegean part - why not Bulgaria for its one ???
Macedonians claim and make demands regarding "minorities" in all neighboring countries.
But they refuse to give equal right of Bulgarians in N Macedonia to thise of 6 other minorities.
Western people know about the Prespa Treaty.
How many Western people know about the Treaty for agreement and friendship ?
Western people know about Alexander, Aristotle, Homer,, etc.
But most Western people know almost nothing about Bulgaria.
I agree that from your point of view, Bulgarian position is "not understandable".
But your claim that even Bulgarians don't understand it, is absurd.
Personally, I am against the veto. I want to see N Macedonia in the EU.
But EU has common rulrs and valurs.
Lack of territorial demands, equal rights to all minorities, respect towards the other member states - N Macedonia showed that it is not reafy to share those values.
@milencenov6421 Thanks. But when I made the video, I said that the Bulgarians didn’t really understand why they were angry. I had thousands of comments saying they knew exactly why they were angry, only to get a different answer from each one! It’s a bit like Brexit. Everyone who voted the leave said they knew exactly what they were voting for, except that’s it’s now clear that each person had their own reason. This is the way with nationalism. And I think it is depressing how Bulgaria, with all the problems it has. Fixates on this trivial issue (whatever it is). Really, in the grand scheme of things, it is utterly unimportant.
@JamesKerLindsay I like debating with highly educated and knowledgeable people because they usually write in a very logical and understandable manner.
I'm referring to you, obviously :)
You wrote "in the grand scheme"...
Yes, but we are a small country.
And it is very difficult to survive among Great Powers, each of them with its own "grand scheme".
See... 2 million of today's 7 million Bulgarian population are children and grandchildren of refugees from Macedonia.
City quarters and even entire towns have all their streets named after Macedonian towns, lakes, mountains. The VMORO heroes are also commemorated.
This is not because of nationalism or chauvinism, but because people who built the houses there gave street names according to their birthplaces or the heroes who defended them.
It is difficult to say, "Hey, forget your birthplace and move on. Forget your past and your relatives".
But this is the general train of thought.
There are, of course, variations and fluctuations.
For example, the most recent political joke is:
"Bulgarians don't want to stay in the EU, but also don't want to see Macedonians accepted there".
:)
@@milencenov6421What is that Bsht. What you wrote is 99% lies. In the agreement with Bulgaria, there was neither the issue of language nor the issue of the Bulgarian minority (according to the latest census, there are about 3,500 Bulgarians in Macedonia - a strong figure) and all other lies. Instead of blocking, it would be better to implement the 12 or more judgments of the Court of of human rights in Strasbourg, which the Macedonians in Eastern Bulgaria (Pirinska Macedonia) received.
I m proud Macedonian, my DNA is J2a which means that my ancestors lived in Macedonia forever. My parents and grandparents are from Ohrid, Republic of Macedonia and we have nothing common with Greeks and Bulgarians. Long live Macedonia !!!
Yes, this is why you watch Bulgarian videos, comment and understand everything and politicians and TV interviews with no translators. Yugoslav propaganda as usual...
"...In human genetics, Haplogroup J-M172 or J2 [Phylogenetics 1] is a Y-chromosome haplogroup which is a subclade (branch) of haplogroup J-M304. [Phylogenetics 2] Haplogroup J-M172 is common in modern populations in Western Asia, Central Asia, South Asia, Southern Europe, Northwestern Iran and North Africa. It is thought that J-M172 may have originated between the Caucasus, Anatolia and/or Western Iran.[9][10]...".
@@limazulu6660 I even dont understand bulgarian, just english and macedonian language.
I don't see a problem Macedonians van call themselvs how they want in their country called Macedonia, Macedonia for the Macedonians.
Macedonians are Greeks
They aren't Greeks , they could join Greece
What would you say if european settlers in America started calling themselves Cherokees or Incas or Aztecas etc???
Odd question. As it happens, I come from a country where various Anglo-Saxon invaders now call themselves Britons. Should my Celtic side be angry at my Anglo-Norman side for this blatant cultural appropriation. Help!
Considering the amount of resistance to the deal from both sides, it seems to be a good deal actually. There is a sayng in germany: A good deal is a deal where both sides are equally unhappy.
The new president did not call the country The Republic of Macedonia. She called the country “Macedonia”
Please correct your video.
Thank you for doing this video. Here are my 2 cents as a person that has been under the direct influence by this (and much more other) issue. I will try to be objective as possible and I am always open to a debate and an intelligent discussion.
First and foremost this is not the first breach of the agreement. According to the Prespa agreement the contry's name is officially North Macedonia, erga omnes, since there were proposals that the country uses one name of foreign policies and another for internal. Now the nationality of the population is Macedonian, not North Macedonian and this is where the agreement is breached the most, since the population tends to be addressed as North Macedonian. Of course my opinion was that this was a very smart move from the Greek diplomacy when they were making their concessions, understanding that a mistake like this will most probably happen, since for most countries like Northern Ireland, North Korea, the natonalities and languages still include the corresponding adjestives.
The majority of the current population, Macedonians, are predominantly Slavic and no they are not Bulgarians, in fact genetically they resemble more to the Serbs than the Bulgarians. Only the super stubborn and "illiterate" part of them think they are the direct decendents of Alexander The Great, and ignore the fact that on that region throughout history there were constant wars and migrations, from Ancient Macedonians and Ancient Greeks to Slavs, Celtcs, Avars, Pechenegs, Germanic, Nordic, Norman, Anglo Saxon, Turkic (even Catalan) people and god knows what else.
But the real question is what about the current population that lives in todays Greece? What do they have in common with the Ancient Macedonians and Alexander and do they have the right to monopolize the name Macedonia/Macedonian? I don't want to make this an essay, but I will just ask one question, Alexander the Great and a lot of the Ancient Macedonians was said to be fair haired. Walk around the streets of todays Thessaloniki and Athens and count the number of people with fair hair.
Normal and civilzed people that understand that the true meaning of improving todays society is by learning from history and focusing on the future by uniting in science and knowledge, reach an agreement and move forward improving their bilateral relations. Do the Germans or Italians claim Otto The Great only for themselves? And that is only one of the countless examples that the Dutch, the French, the Brits, the Spanish could do exactly how its currently done by some of the countries in the Balkan region. On the other hand stubborn fools hold to an idiotic thing like their last straw of hope for some kind of meaning.
I can talk for days and months about this subject and write an essay, but I don't think people will read it so just wanted to point out some short notes.
Genetically, lol!
@@EllasSagapo I can assure you that not a single person with an IQ higher than a room temperature, has any issue with Greece naming its region Macedonia, and also 100+ countries didn't have anything against the country having the same name Macedonia. But Greece and a few other European countries did, hence the question topic of monopolization. If it did not hold, then the country would've remained Macedonia and the region as well, and everyone lives happily ever after.
It is very important to distinguish the term province from an actual socialist republic, and that's what it was in ex-Yugoslavia. Macedonia was of one of the six republics under the federation of Yugoslavia. Which also brings to attention another question, why did Greece didn't complain about it back then, but started to complain afterwards? Could it be because they weren't militarily and economically as powerful as Yugoslavia and couldn't really pressure them?
@@ristovskiv
When the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was founded in 1945, Greece had the Second World War behind it and the equally bloody civil war ahead of it. How could the Greek government have resisted Tito's decision to create a province called Macedonia?
@@navigator0950 1945. Yugoslavia.
.... drndaj .
What? Who "has a long history"? "North" what? 🧐🧐🧐
MACEDONIAN HISTORY 25 CENTURIES. @... @.
I don't understand why Slavics wants to be so bad hellens or Illyrians? Ashamed to be slavic?
IN MAKEDONIJA MACEDONIANS ! ! @ you... where ?
The deal was Macedonia would change its name; in exchange, Macedonia would get into then EU - which never happened. Deal was already broken.
Thanks. But this wasn’t exactly the deal. The deal was that Greece would lift its objections. No country can join without letting the conditions. But you’re right in that there was an expectation that it could follow the process fairly smoothly. That commitment was broken by Bulgaria.
2:20 (...) This Hellenistic period lasted(...). *Hellenistic* period. As in the word used by modern Greeks to describe themselves. And you claim that the country named North Macedonia, who are slavs and speak a bulgarian dialect are related to Alexander. Respectfully professor, you don't know what you're talking about.
Whole world will accept macedonia except greece and who are we to change our name for one country
Professor, thank you for the great educational contents.
It is possible these days. If a man can identify as a women and a woman as a man. Then there is no problem with a Slav to claim ancient Greek identity. The word Greek and Greece is a Roman invention. Greeks have always call themselves Hellenic. Alexandros was Hellenic and spoke Hellenica (Greek). In fact to those who are knowledgeable in ancient history the Macedonian tribe of Greeks (Hellines) , originaly came from Argos in South Greece and moved to this area later.
the word MACEDONIAN relate to M A C E D O N I A N S ! ! !
The Prespa Agreement between Greece and Macedonia is illegal because the Referendum they conducted was not successful and was not signed by the President of the Republic of Macedonia.
@@DA-eo8ps MACEDONIANS LIVE IN MAKEDONIJA.
you in Vranje.