“Children are dying." Lull nodded. "That's a succinct summary of humankind, I'd say. Who needs tomes and volumes of history? Children are dying. The injustices of the world hide in those three words.”
Yes. This conversation is most comforting, and comes right when you need it. "Children are dying" is pretty much the worst scenario that exists in the world and yet, as Lull says, it's was ever thus and ever will be, and look, it all keeps moving along anyhow. The worst that the world has to offer can be absorbed and it will not destroy the human will to keep going. Seal the breaches and keep moving. Absolutely love this stoic moment in Malazan.
This was an absolute blast, A.P.! Thanks once again for adding depth and richness to my reading of Deadhouse Gates. I hope others will enjoy hearing us discuss some of our favorite, most moving, most tragic, and funniest moments from book two of The Malazan Book of the Fallen. I've still got a "hangover" from reading it -- the sort that a great book induces -- and I can't wait for Memories of Ice!
This was a fantastic conversation and we could easily have spent another hour talking. The book is incredibly rich in story detail, character details, themes, but I am glad that we spent the majority of the time talking about the emotional journey, because that was the absolute high point of this book for me. There is still so much to unpack about Baudin, about Coltaine, about Kalam's entire journey, about the Rebellion, about the path of hands and Heboric and Felisin's journey, and we barely even mentioned the entire warren adventure with Stormy and Gessler.
Great to see you here Mike. I hope that the read-a-long is going well. There are a couple of other videos that I have up about Deadhouse Gates that you might find interesting or fun now that you have finished. I really hope that you enjoyed the book.
Deadhouse Gates made me realize I'm on my way to read a once-in-a-while masterpiece. Your in-depth conversations add so many layers to the already epic storytelling it further proves this point. DG is surely the most memorable book (not nearly the best, of course) of the series, because it's the first one where Steve punches you right in the guts and smashes your head against the mud. My personal favourite scene is when Duiker is the last person entering the city, and he takes the time to look back to whence they came and think. It's the most vivid moment to me, so cinematic. Can't wait for the Memories of Ice discussion.
That scene with Duiker is again one of many beautiful, cinematic moments in the book that has such a gut wrenching sense of emotion behind it. This is such an incredibly powerful book and I have never understood the dislike that some readers have of it.
Yes, especially after, as you both said, we've come to know Duiker as this cynical, almost nihilistic guy who is constantly reminding Coltain they're all gonna die, they're doomed, going to get surrounded and crushed, etc... and then they miraculously succeed! Well, understandably, Duiker stops in front of the gate, probably struggling with reality or with himself, trying to accept what's happening, looking back to the gruesome, brutal path they've paved... Ratiocinates. God, that's such a strong scene!
Wonderful discussion! I have become ridiculously sentimental as I've gotten older, and my heart breaks for Felisin. I like how you explained there isn't just one path to ascendency. There are many paths up the mountain, so to speak, and I find that so intriguing. A.P., I know narrative analysis is your specialty, and it blows me away how you point out plot-points that should be so obvious from a narrative perspective. Perhaps this should have been super obvious, but of course Laseen wouldn't waste her time on one assassin! That made so much sense once you explained it. I am loving the interactions between so many different, odd combinations of characters in this series. As you said, similarities can outweigh differences. Thank you for sharing so many wonderful insights.
Thank you Johanna, I am glad that people generally seem to enjoy these tings. I always worry that what I say is going to be boring to other people, or so obvious that I look like an eejit. But as long as at least some people are enjoying these things then I will keep doing them.
@@ACriticalDragon I have never found anything you have said to be boring or too obvious. I am so grateful you started your channel, and I have much to learn from you.
@@ACriticalDragon Very much so. I'm lucky to be watching these conversations basically in real time while I read the books. I find that while the greater themes stick with me, there are a lot of details that I forget quite quickly, mostly owing to the size and scope of these stories. Watching videos like this not only remind me of those details, but add several layers of critical analysis that, as an untrained reader, augment the experience. It's already been a wild ride and I can't believe I'm only 2 books in to the 10 book series.
I've been rereading Deadhouse Gates and what really got me emotionally is Duiker's last conversation with Captain Lull and Coltaine, when Duiker is told old men are wise, and he's a soldier, and after that Coltaine's feelings showing when Lull tells him Corporal List will stay and fight.
Perhaps I'm an utter sop, but the bittersweet deliverance of the refugees to Aren at the expense of the lives of the 7th Army, Wickans and Coltaine struck me just as hard on this re-read. Thank you both for this fascinating discussion. I very much look forward to your discourse on the remainder of the series.
Love your discussions. They are always insightful and enlightening. If ever I read the series again, which I certainly hope to do some day (so many books, so little time...), I'll definitely come back here for a re-listen. About Laseen, I don't think I can ever like her either, however, I did find myself standing in her corner, and even feeling for her, in The Return of the Crimson Guard.
I stayed away from any online chats about Deadhouse Gates until I finished and word-vomited at my own camera, but this was top of my list to get to chaps! Just finished the other day and uploaded my own video today so here I am with the feet up listening to both of you. I love some of the parallels and deviations in our interpretations. As a ridiculous person myself, Kruppe is the superior ridiculous character. An underestimated funny man! Iskaral is.... Nuts 😂 Felisin was my favourite character from the get-go, and Mappo-Icarium was my favourite subplot of the two books so far. Great stuff AP and Philip! Really appreciate both of you! Carlos.
@@ACriticalDragon I expect big green ogres in future books, if not, Steven will be hearing from me. Haha.. just finished this chat a few minutes ago! Super glad to have you fellas as virtual companions as I progress through the books
I just finished reading Deadhouse Gates yesterday and i can now finally watch this talk ! I absolutely loved this book and Deadhouse just might be one of my favorites books to date. The storytelling, the depth of characters, the humor, the deeper meanings often layed out as a metaphor as a prelude to events. This was the perfect book to follow Gardens of The Moon. I also appreciated the reference to our friend the weather vane in Malaz city near the end of the book
Enjoyed the discussion! When you were talking of Baudin’s death and Felisin’s response, it brought me to tears just as it did in the book. In my thinking on Felisin, I think part of the reason I was drawn to her character is she reminds me of some of the teenage boys and girls on my caseload when I was a caseworker years ago. Trauma changes us and sometimes we act out in unhealthy ways as a result. I saw many her actions as cries for help. I am very interested to see how her storyline progresses in the series.
Hi Carolyn. I find the arc of Felisin, Heboric, and Baudin to be incredibly compelling because of the complexity. None of them have clean hands, but they are all victims, and each is broken in a different way. Erikson doesn't pull punches in presenting the difficulties of victims and how their behaviour can be destructive, but he always brings us back to the need for understanding and compassion. I would never describe reading those sections as pleasurable, but they are powerfully compelling, challenging, and emotionally devastating.
Just finished DG for the first time. I have lots to say, however i’ll keep it short. The most impactful moment for me was the final scene between Mappo and Icarium. Right from the start, we see that Mappo is in immense emotional pain but the reason why is elusive until later on in the book. Personally, I was somewhat dismissive of Mappo’s turmoil. The final scene truly put me in Mappo’s shoes, however. We now know why Mappo is so torn… and when Icarium says, as he has multiple times across the book, that he feels ‘close’ the true weight of Mappo’s feelings hit me. A beautifully circular story. Love these videos AP, always enlightening.
Another excellent conversation. This series will be so enriching and informative. My take on Laseen: she is a female Octavian: unprepossessing, a cold fish, someone who keeps an eye firmly and coolly on the bigger picture. I don't like her either, but she is the necessary technocrat for this Malazan Empire.
Hi Johan, you make the great point. Laseen is a great character and being confronted with her reality, and the issues that she faces as empress, is a great moment in the books that makes that perceived anti-climax of the lack of battle so rewarding for me.
The scene between Laseen and Kalam is great. It shows the depth of Laseen as a character. She is not the evil moustache twirling antagonist. Her actions and decisions are rational not just to her, but to us as well.
Hello Francois, thank you for watching and commenting. I absolutely agree with you. That scene is essential in establishing Laseen as more rounded, developed, and interesting, than the reported descriptions of her in Gardens of the Moon.
My feeling towards this was a toll of sorrow, as I read this it was exhausting at first, but as I continued and finished ,and I realize that was what you where supposed to feel all that pain and the sliver of hope from the small victories. That's just brilliant and cinematic. Filasin was irritated at first but I stopped and thought about her age and everything that was taken away from her and having to grow up so fast for survival. The bromance with Mappa and Icarium was beautiful,the tragedy at the end truly stays with you.
Hi Edwin, thanks for commenting, and I completely agree that this book illustrates Erikson's ability to take us on a very emotional journey (while still providing compelling action and comedy, magic and battles) and so this I think is a book that should tell a reader, 'trust the author, he knows what he is doing, there is a reason for the structure, the characters, the plot threads and the themes, this will all pay off.'
definitiely cried multiple times during this book. The T'lan Imass suffering to seal the Warren, the fall of coltaine, Squint, and the crucifixions were all gutwrenching.
Rest assured, you are not alone in shedding tears while reading this one. But it is really interesting that so many of us identify different key moments as the ones that finally make us break.
I finished reading Deadhouse Gates today for the first time. Squint is definitely what broke me. I absolutely hated Pormqual. The whole Chain of Dogs storyline is amazing.
Oh guys, this was lovely! Your collaboration is a very warm and friendly one. I love the amazing analysis you provide and the laughter that you guys share with us. I could watch you for hours! Thank you, really, and I hope that even after the main 10, you will continue with Kharkanas and with the Bauchelain books and with character analysis and so on. Your vids make for an enjoyable experience, and you both give a warm, cozy, familiar feeling, it's like watching my smart friends talk. A.P. - that Subterranean Press edition of GotM with Rake on it seems to come closer and closer to the camera (in case I am mistaken, my bad). Will you make a bookshelf tour video for us? I would love to see your bookshelves in more detail :)
I've already recognised some beauties there, from Feist and Hobb to some Forgotten Realms ones I believe - but would love the full tour! Many of the shelves look double packed as well, so probably not an easy ask 😅
Don't let Philip fool you, he is mean and nasty once the camera isn't rolling. I hear he steals sweets from children and folds over the pages in his books instead of using a book mark. He is a monster. But thanks for watching and commenting. These chats are so much fun to do, and I only wish that we could do longer videos on these books. So I am really looking forward to the rest of the series , as well as taking time to look at Esslemont's books, and some of Erikson's novellas (especially the ones I am in).
oh... and no book shelf tour. I will continue to shuffle books around in the background to mess with people, but I have to maintain an air of mystery :)
@@ACriticalDragon Stealing candy from children is one of my favorite pastimes! But I only make dog ears on other people’s books, not my own, so it’s a good job you’re not allowing me near your Subterranean Press editions of Malazan. 😁
I finished Deadhouse Gates last week and really enjoyed this video. Even after and hour, there are so many things I was hoping you guys would talk about! So much density in this book. (I really enjoyed the book). Thanks for the video!
Another powerful watch guys and brilliant insightful analysis as always, I have been saving these reviews until I got to The crippled God as excellent way to refresh the story in my head as I go into book 10 currently on page 80 already some stella moments. Think i have been so lucky reading these books in my 40s and having the time ( thanks to furlough :) ) as I have grown and evolved so much as Person through work and travel etc and has really helped me appreciate and understand the complexity of Steven Erickson story telling and character development that even just 10 yrs ago I may of missed or not fully understood.
Thank you so much for doing this series. I am reading the series through for the first time and watching these videos after finishing the corresponding book is such a wonderful experience.
Psssh... I can't even think about the Littlefoot's mother theme from "Land Before Time" without tearing up... oh, there I go... This book didn't leave a particularly strong impression on me when I read it the first time. I think I was too eager for a follow up to Gardens and wasn't in a place to give this book a chance. I was also either in my last year of high school or my first year of college so I was probably just looking for instant gratification to offset all the uncertainty that was going on at the time. Plus, I didn't feel any significant attachment to Fiddler, Apsalar, and the other carryovers from Gardens. I think I got through this book fairly quickly and then found myself lost but really enjoying House of Chains which continues some of this book's storylines. Like many readers though, Memories of Ice really cemented me as a Malazan fan. Fast forward to sometime during my post-grad education - this book had a tremendous impact on me during my second readthrough. I think that's because I had been strong-armed into reading A Song of Ice and Fire by some very enthusiastic friends who promised that it would be unlike any fantasy book I'd ever read before; however, I felt really let down after finishing each book. When I picked up Deadhouse Gates a second time, I really savored the experience of the book itself, but I also couldn't help but feel like it did things better for me than Martin's series (I'm trying really hard to avoid saying I didn't like it, therefore, it's a bad book, but that is how I felt at the time.) I could go on forever about this book, but I'll just point out that one of the things that I really noticed about this book was how new (to me) and nuanced the different cultures felt. Western fantasy books (but also fantasy in general) have a tendency to rely upon cultural analogs which serve as a kind of lodestone for the reader. As you read about the world setting, it's easy to just drop the different people into more recognizable categories - you find your I-can't-believe-they're-not-Vikings, faux french circa 100 years war, various Celtic/Pictish stand-ins, and so on and so forth. (I seem to recall there being a letter between Howard and maybe Lovecraft about this vis a vis the Hyborian Age.) There are often all these very distinct cultures that dominate the fantasy world, but their analogs are a bunch of relatively small, neighboring countries. Meanwhile, to the extent that there are non-Western cultures represented at all, you have other cultures that are stand-ins for Arabs and Mongols. They generally have little to no cultural diversity beyond maybe a subculture that seems more Persian or Hun-like. One of the things I enjoyed about Gardens was that there were relatively few of these analogs. Sure the Malazan Empire could be any of the Roman empires and Darujistan immediately brings to mind a desert setting, but I couldn't make any connections with the Moranth, Barghest, Rhivi, etc. Deadhouse Gates goes in a somewhat different direction though by having a large, non-western setting that's very name speaks of different cultures (7 at least, but as the book goes on you quickly lose count of the various clans, tribes, and nations both depicted and mentioned.) There's also Coltaine and the Wickans; I absolutely connected them with some of the American First Nations (the Crow Nation being just a little too on the nose sometimes), but as the book went on I couldn't help but draw parallels between Chief Joseph and the Nez Perce, on the one hand, and the Chain of Dogs on the other. I can't speak to what degree any of these cultural depictions were problematic or overly-generalized, but I appreciated that it was something that I really hadn't encountered before in fantasy. Alright, I've rambled on here, but I'll just wrap up by noting that Deadhouse Gates was my favorite book during my 2nd readthrough and I found myself more closely following the characters it introduced as they show up in the rest of the series than I had on my first time around.
You raise some brilliant points, and I am only sorry that Philip and I didn't get a chance to talk about almost any of the things you raise here. But I have to say that the originality of the world that Esslemont and Erikson created is one of the great joys of the books. It is an engaging and enthralling world. Is it perfect? Nope. But when compared to so much other fantasy with its Eurocentric views or bald analogy races, this was an amazing breath of fresh air in the genre.
Love this, recently fallen into the MalazTube scene. Watched the fist part and glad you made your own channel. Phillip Chase is such a genuine communicator and AP you have sooo much "behind the scenes" knowledge, that a layperson doesn't have. It's really elucidating and I feel like I'm in the discussion by proxy. What happens during the fall of Coltaine, doesn't just break squint... he was just the obvious face of the breaking. Blistig and others on the wall were also broken, just to a lesser degree. However, they couldn't break all the way like Squint did. Blistig had to maintain a bold face of stoicism as a leader, really THE leader at the time. The impact on Blistig is seen later in the series (trying not to spoil).
Hi Josh, that is a great point. I am glad that you enjoyed the video. Hopefully there are a few more that will interest you. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Great video! new to the channel, right now just ending Memories of Ice. Deadhouse Gates was a great reading for me, especially the part about Coltaine and Duiker. That part reminded me, firstly, of the Anabasis. But in second place, is the Prince of Nothing Trilogy from Scott Bakker. More specifically, the second book, The Warrior Prophet. I read those books like 20 years ago, the only trilogy I read more than 3 times... and even today still amazes me how good Bakker is, and how unknown to the majority of the fandom. So unknown that only the three first books are translated into Spanish, the rest of his books remain without translation (and me without reading them)
I just finished this book for the first time. I actually started crying when Duiker and the chain of dogs see the gates of Aren. You feel like you've been on this hopeless journey with them, and they finally see a sight they believed impossible.
Chain of dogs is a favorite but this like in all the books, as you mentioned, has a lot to offer I really loved Icarium and Mappo because I found out right away the mention of the name in one of the conversation between Baruk and Rake in GotM but also because Mappo POV. Loved to follow Fiddler and crew and Kalam was also glue/transition from that to the Book of Dryjhna (Shaik Leoman and toblakai) then to Demon then to Keneb and Culminates with Lassen. Then Duiker binding Culp-Gelser group to Felisin-Heboric and getting back to Coltain saving the Malazan civilians while facing the rebels single handed and how everything is intertwined how the journey of each POV is a pillar of construction towards the story itself: Masterfully done 10 times in this series I must say.
Structurally it is a brilliantly interwoven and interconnected novel. The themes, actions, characters all blend to make a great symphony of story. It is incredible work and great literature.
Squint always gets me. It is amazing, every time I reread the waterworks start. Nether also doesn't help my emotional state either. I drew a piece on it under the name Enaglio.
Sometimes people deserve a poke. Kulp becomes pulp. 😂 Great discussion once again! Love these so much 😊 All great points, and I fully agree that Coltaine's end is the obvious big heartwrenching moment on a first read.. but the others are even more so on rereads. I shouldn't have started watching this as I sat down with my dinner - choking up over Squint in those first minutes of the conversation put a spin on my meal 😅😢 You touched on him briefly, but I want to add in some praise for Baudin. Yes he comes across as a monster on first and maybe second read.. but he isn't. Yes he is an assassin, he is a killer - trained and professional. He is pragmatic, but he doesn't kill for sport or pleasure. Killing that old noblewoman in the beginning is brutal - but she wouldn't have survived the journey let alone the slavecamp. And it allowed them to safely reach the ship, while he had very few options of protecting Felisin chained up as he was. Which is point two.. you already said he stood by Felisin best he could, keeping his word. He had the _choice_ to go the Ottateral mines, it was a choice he accepted! And he never betrays the one who asked him, or the one he needs to protect. We can argue about his methods, but he acted to the best of his abilities and seemingly in good faith. He is one of the side characters I love best in the book. On another side note, Duiker is a word in Dutch which means 'diver' (pronunciation of the 'ui' lies somewhere between 'rune' and 'dike', as a single sound instead of 'u-i'). Additionally 'divers' means something like 'varied' or 'multiple' in Dutch as well. Always wondered if those were deliberate - in Erikson's case hard to imagine they're not. Thanks again guys! I posted some more thoughts and questions on the GotM video on Philip's channel - which he reposted on the non-spoiler Deadhouse video. Would be great to have your thoughts there as well! Looking forward to the Memories of Ice discussion already, can't wait 🤓
Those are fantastic points. I think that Philip and I could probably do another hour on this book easily. There was so much we skipped over simply because we were trying to hit a lot of the high points. But I will try to record a few videos on some of the other aspects we glossed over a little.
@@ACriticalDragon I could, and would, listen to either one of you or both talking about these books for hours. No pressure, just pure appreciation and admiration 😄
I believe that I heard Brent Weeks say in an interview once that he is happy to write a scene that makes the reader throw their book at the wall across the room, just as long as they then walk over to pick it back up and keep reading. That's what Coltaine's death kinda felt like to me.
Throw a book across a room... and encourage it... that Brent Weeks is a monster :) :) :) But he has a point, most scenes that evoke such strong emotions certainly is something worth reading and to be proud of writing.
This was fun. I have too much to say, so I will keep most of it to myself :P But I did enjoy your point about Coltain's ascencion. I always thought of it as the natural path that powerful people of his tribe take, the rebirth and all, just like Sormo Enath was reborn. People like Anomander ascended mostly because of the power of their will, the power of their soul. And I had thought of Coltaine the same way. But Wickans don't ascend, not normally, precisely because of this cycle of rebirth. Which is why your point makes so much sense. And there is Felisin. I vibrated with her story from the very beginning. There was recently a conversation on the group about what happened to her and the value of consent given in difficult conditions. But I need to keep some of that ammo for my own discussions with Steve about Deadhouse Gates :P
Thanks Claudia. It is a fantastic book, and there is so much to talk about in it. As well as ample room for different interpretations. Philip and I have our views, but that doesn't mean that we are the final arbiters of what things mean :)
@@ACriticalDragon But you were entirely right about it. I just hadn't considered it before. And while I stand for my choice not to have a favorite book among the ten, if I absolutely had to pick one, it would probably be Deadhouse Gates. I always prefered the magic over everything else and other books have a lot more of it. But there is something about the raw humanity that Steve shows us in Deadhouse Gates that is overwhelming. I absolutely adore this book.
While the quest groups can be viewed as reminiscent of D&D quest group, there is one fundamental difference in my opinion. The traditional quest group is brought together by a singularity of purpose; maybe throwing the ring into the fires. Erikson’s groups have this complexity of motives, including some of the characters just trying to survive and make sense of their situation. Brilliant!
Finally finished last night! Probably took me a few months, but that's a good pace for me historically. I got to feel Raraku's grind with some of the characters. Really glad you mentioned that bait and switch between Aspalar and Felisin, loved that. I will pour one out for Kulp. Really dug all the plotlines. Chain of Dog's confused me initially, but once in motion and I had the names down I was in. Something about those child Warlocks was very heavy metal. +1 point for a wizard soiling themselves getting blasted with their own spell +1 point for Kalam murdering the bandits +1 point for dancing Iskarel Pust
It's an hour long and barely feels like it scratches the surface. Although you did cover a lot of great points! I just mean it's impossible to discuss everything there is to discuss in these books. I just want to say thank you for these videos they are helping me enjoy the books more. Honestly I didn't love DHG as much as I liked Gardens but I definitely appreciate it more after watching this exchange. I read it in about 4 days And I think that was one of my issues. Also I kept hearing the end was so amazing and sad and after I finished I was like "which part was supposed to be sad...." . I'm gonna slow down a lot more with book 3. I also hate desert stories so this might just have been not my book HOWEVER I would read it again just for the Mappi Icarium storyline. That alone made it worth it. Such a beautiful friendship.
I am sorry you didn't enjoy Deadhouse Gates as much as Gardens, but I am very glad that there was aspects of it that improved after you saw the video. Reading it in 4 days is impressive. But, if you could please forgive the unsolicited advice, taking a bit more time as you read might help you enjoy the books more. Slowing down helps us take in and think about what is happening, and the connections being made. That being said, read in whatever way you want. If you love blitzing through books, then have at it. Thanks for watching.
@@ACriticalDragon oh ya, I totally realize that now. I heard that the ending was amazing so I was expecting some big WTF NO WAY moments or some big surprise or reveal so I was just pushing through it all hours of the day through multiple mediums and was let down. Needless to say, that's not a very enjoyable way of consuming literature. I realize now that I should have been more present with the characters. I'm in Memories of Ice now and taking my sweet time and absorbing every sentence. Very enjoyable so far. I look forward to sometime in the future coming back to Deadhouse and giving it the time and attention it probably deserves.
I thought I'd gotten cried out earlier in the day when I listened to the Fall of Coltaine (as I always seem to do, the re-read/re-listen always catches me outside or among people who think I need help because I'm unashamedly weeping). But I teared up again as I was listening to the two of you at the beginning. And I am nodding my head emphatically while hearing the explanation of how and why Coltaine ascended (I believe that he did ascend, even if he is transplanted in a new, child body). There is a bit where I forget whom Duiker talks to, but the soldier says about Coltaine that "He's a cold blooded lizard, but he's all ours." And there is a similar conversation where someone says that they are no longer soldiers of the Empire, they are Coltaine's. The cult of Coltaine started among his own people and grew among the 7th Army. But, as you say, the true power of this legendary man shows up among his enemies or else the tribes that should oppose him, but he ends up becoming their god. I'm pretty much a Coltaine worshiper myself, but upon this latest re-read, I was hunting down signs of him still being human. Like his lunatic laughter that sets the dogs howling and the punch aimed at Gesler, the puzzlement and amusement during the sleight of hand scene and his fury when he thinks he's being challenged to a duel and Duiker says he cannot act like a warleader. That flash of anger at the lack of choice even about his own ending is such an amazing insight into the inner landscape of someone who is outwardly so stoic and implacable with literally the weight of the world on his shoulders. Deadhouse Gates is always going to be my favorite Malazan book and one of my all time favorite books. It's also the book that never fails to bring the waterworks. Out of nowhere, I'll catch myself saying "Like a prayer, Squint, like a Hood damned prayer." And then I'll tear up and want to go back to the book, no matter where I am and what I'm doing at the time.
Thanks for watching and the thoughtful comment. This is such an emotionally impactful novel. I am so pleased that you continue to feel that emotional resonance, even on a reread. I think that speaks volumes about the power of literature in general (and specifically Erikson's work) to move us.
In some ways, the weight that Coltaine carries makes me think of Druss the Legend, created by David Gemmell. They are a breed apart. They inspire a lot of hero worship, although in Malazan that reaches a different level. They know they face almost certain death, but they have a duty and they do it. Death can be cruel. War is brutal. But there is still a beauty in men and women of principles, no matter the cost. I'm not trying to make Coltaine more noble than he is, but there is something about his character that really speaks to me. So many of these characters in this particular book really spoke to me. I have never experienced anything remotely like Felisin, but I instantly related to her fear, her anger, her everything in this book. Even when I hated some of her actions, whispering, "No, baby girl, not that," I understand what was driving her. I started out completely uninterested in Duiker, and then he became the character I couldn't wait to get back to. I was heartbroken and infuriated by his death. Erickson has really created something beyond just fun fantasy. He's examining humanity in all its parts. It hurts to read sometimes, but it's so well-written, I cannot look away. I definitely related more personally to the characters in this book much more than Gardens of the Moon, maybe because I was struggling to get my bearings in this world. I still liked many of them and look forward to those stories as well, but DG just felt so personal. I'm learning so much, watching you guys geek out over this series. I love every minute. Thank you for sharing.
Hi Andrea, thank you for the really interesting and thoughtful comment. I honestly had not thought to compare Coltaine with Druss. The Grizzled Veteran trope/archetype is so engrained in Druss' character that I saw him as very different to Coltaine. But I see your point. I agree that Erikson's work goes far beyond a simple story for fun and entertainment, but attempts to get the reader to engage with the human condition, including its darker aspects, and tries to get us to empathise and understand situations, experiences, and perspectives that are not our own. Duiker's journey as a world weary cynic, taking the reader along with him, as he moves from his cold, cynical evaluations, to those moments when he starts to believe in Coltaine and the journey, to those final moments in Aren... that is a powerful journey. Felisin's journey is harrowing in a completely different way, but we follow along with the narrative as each time we are asked to understand her perspective, her hurt, and her pain. Mappo's journey, begun with a lie and, against his better judgement, ends with true friendship.... All these journeys in the book present us with such nuanced insights into the complicated, messy, emotionally fraught world of the human condition. I love his writing for that nuance. I hope that you enjoy the rest of the series, as you have seen from Deadhouse Gates, it is not easy, we as reader get put through an emotional wringer just like the characters, but I honestly believe that it is worth the journey.
The bit with the captain of the sappers honestly made me laugh out loud. I had to stop reading for a minute just to process the sheer comedy of that moment which stood out all the more because it was surrounded by such suffering.
Just hit the mid point of this on my re-read and want to share a quote after reading the redeployment of the servants. "Rich people are always rich people first and whatever else they are second.' The Book of Cerebus Fitting.
Just finished this book for the first time and it ran rough shod over my heart. It was an amazing experience. Near the end I was having to read a section. Set it down and breath. Pick it up and read a section. Set it down and pick up Les Miserables for some lighter reading, etc. I have not read anything more wearying and beautiful before. The scene of the historian walking among the refugees was what brought tears to my eyes. Pormqual's death was not enough. He needed some Count of Monte Cristo levels of life destruction. I'm still reeling. Also it was hilarious! It's so good.
Regarding Shadowthrone and Iskaral Pust, maybe their fragmented minds are the results of drawing on their warren? Think of other magic users, and how their ways of thinking and their personalities so often seem to be an almost direct reflection of the Warren they draw on.
I felt so much for Squint. Who the hell would want that job. It made me want to throw the book across the room. As for Mappo his service and sacrifice touched me the most throughout the whole story.
Enjoyed this discussion immensely. It gives me so much more to think about, particulary regarding Coltaine's path to ascendancy. Thank you so much for your discussion of Felisin. This is my first reading of the series and I have to say I was struck for how much dislike there was for this character in online discussions. Personally, I was immediately pulled in by her story and found it heart breaking. So it was very disheartening to see so much online rancor towards her. It shouldn't take a female perspective or personal experience with childhood abuse to understand what was going on with her character so I was very pleased to hear your and Philip's discussion of her. This book has so much to process for a first-time reader so thank you both again for this video. Also, Iskaral Pust is such an ear worm of a character name that I don't think it will ever stop residing in my brain!
I am so glad that you enjoyed the video. Reading can be such a personal experience, and we all react to different characters and different narrative events based on so many factors in our own lives and circumstances as well as what is in the text, but I am glad that the discussion that Philip and I had was of interest to you. My initial reaction to Felisin's storyline when I first read the book years ago was far less sympathetic, and I think a lot of that had to do with my focus and interest on the 'story' of the Chain of Dogs and my impatience to always return to that. As a result I didn't pay attention to Felisin as carefully as I now do and was always impatient to return to the 'main story' as I saw it then. But my perspective has certainly changed in that regard now that I have returned to the series.
great as always. however, no mention of the Gral horse and the fate of 'brokenface' /sad noice also, this is then erikson (for me at least) started leaning towards the ancient classics - DG could well have been a greek myth.
Thanks for watching and commenting. Always good to hear from you. Great point about the stronger classical influence, and I am sorry that we didn't get around to mentioning and discussing absolutely everything in the whole novel... but we only had an hour. We tried out best :)
Hi Ceekay, It is never about who finishes first, it is all about the journey. I am so glad that you enjoyed it. I think that it is a brilliant, powerful, and emotive book. I hope that you enjoy the rest of the series too.
For me the chain of dogs is one of the most beautiful episode read in a fantasy books (I'm 45 and I readed a lot of fantasy...) One question: why Fiddler does'nt tell to Kalam about Kimlock encounter fearing that Kalam would have kill Kimloc and every one in his family? I can't understand why. Maybe I miss something. You have my subscrition, great channel PS: sorry for my english...
Hi, thanks for watching. I think that because Fiddler and Kalam are there secretly, and Kimloc knows that they are there, and has discovered their plan to assassinate Laseen (he can read minds) it puts their mission in jeopardy and could get them killed. Fiddler trusts that Kimloc won't betray them, but Kalam is an assassin and the easiest way to guarantee that Kimloc won't betray them is for him to kill Kimloc. That way he could not possibly betray them.
I've just finished! These are my thoughts: Deadhouse Gates - Steven Erikson A (basically) non-spoiler review "Deadhouse Gates" is the second novel in the Malazan Book of the Fallen. It immediately differs from the first title of the series because the setting and characters are almost completely different (those of the first book will in fact return in the third novel). However, it is not the only thing to change: if "Gardens of the Moon" was a puzzle to put together, regarding a very narrow military operation, a conspiracy and the interference of the gods in the affairs of humans, in this work the horizon becomes wider and the themes become even deeper and more complex. "Deadhouse Gates" presents two of the darkest, most violent and pessimistic storylines I have ever read (some officially grimdark books would seem like a happy story by comparison): one is about the long march of thousands of refugees, expelled from the occupied cities because of the war, and escorted by a taciturn and brilliant commander, whose path includes numerous battles and the crossing of an entire continent; the other is the most credible and painful representation of the Stockholm Syndrome (and the consequences of abuse) that I have ever read. Between these two main lines there is also an undercover operation, the search for a mystical door and the story of a poignant friendship broken by centuries of dark secrets. All against the background of the remains of extinct civilizations, among the pottery shards of fallen empires, and among the ghosts of restless fathers and mothers. The cyclical repetition of violence, the awareness of the past, the illusion of control, the chains that bind individuals for better or for worse, and finally the journey, are the most important themes of this novel, topics on which the author wants stimulate the reader to reflect, to confront. However, he was skilled enough to insert a lot of humor, which is breathtaking between a tragedy, a slaughter and a gutting. In fact, I found Erikson's irony quite brilliant already in the first novel, and therefore I am happy that despite the tone of this work, the humor has not been put aside. There are obviously moments of confusion, given the author's style aimed at an all-encompassing "show don't tell": as in the previous novel, many things are understood and interpreted by the end of the reading, while others remain pending: the feeling is that this series is a huge story divided into ten novels, so I look forward to see evolve what remains unanswered in this novel. Not an easy book (as I suppose the whole series), halfway between genre and literature: focused on themes, written with artistic criteria sometimes far from ease of use, but with enormous space given to world building and action. A book that stays in the head after finishing it. And that pushes you, after almost 900 pages, to immediately start the sequel, of almost 1200 pages. It will be a long, long journey. 5/5
Hi Gabriele, That was a really interesting and thoughtful review. I hope that you enjoy the rest of the series. You point out some really great aspects. Thank you for sharing it.
DG is my favorite book of all time! All time! How ppl give this less than 5 stars is beyond me! They must be too young for this... Young souls. This book changed my life, my perspective more than so many personal experiences ever have.
Soo i finished Deadhouse Gates last night. I didn t get any sleep afterwards. I cried sooo much especially during the second part of the book. Don t get me wrong i loved it and i think i have not read anything like that ever before. But now,although i want to read Memories of Ice, i think im gonna take a break read something else and come back again in a short while. This book broke me emotionally!
Hi Katerina, I am so glad that you enjoyed the book, although enjoyed might be the wrong word. There are few novels that I have read that had the level of emotional impact that Deadhouse Gates had. Take a break. Read some happy books. Enjoy the season. There is no rush to get to the next book. Have a great week.
@@ACriticalDragon No enjoyed is the perfect word. Even with things that makes us sad overall when we get through them what remains is catharsis its enjoyment. I really enjoyed the journey but yeah i ll turn to something "happier" and return to MoI after Christmas i think. Thanks for the great discussions on the videos for these books they have helped a lot. Have a nice week too A.P. 😊
I definitely think the part that hit me hardest was Duikers final moments and the realisation that the story of the chain of dogs went with him. Especially when considering Coltaines comments that the real thing the Empress can't lose is the stories of her soldiers or such. It seems the Whickians are inspired by Native American culture. This combined with the idea of oral histories, which often hold special importance to Indigenous and First Nation cultures really add a tragedy to the loss. I was also curious if there are any more plans for a breakdown of the prologue in relation to the epilogue for Deadhouse Gates. They feel thematically connected, between the idea of hoods sprites/flies and the crows involved in the final scene. I feel something great lurks in there that I can't quite fully grasp! Thanks for the great videos!
Hi Nick, those are great points. I am going to do a video on some of the techniques that Erikson uses (for example, the echoes and returns to images, symbols, and metaphors to create thematic closure and resonance) but I am going to hold off on some of those until Philip Chase and I have done the full read through. So, at the minute, the plan is to do more of the whole series overviews later on in the year when I can comfortably use spoilers from across the series without a lot of the end of series information altering my reading of the books as I go through. I hope that makes sense?
@@ACriticalDragon Hey A.P, that definitely makes sense! Almost immediately after typing the previous question I saw you posted a video about symbolism in Deadhouse Gates which was great! It definitely added to my own interpretation of the epilogue and helped me make some thematic connections! I am really enjoying both Phillip and your videos. Most of my academic experiences are related to Social work and critical analysis based in sociology, so that is definitely the lens I bring. I really appreciate the literary analysis of the books as it offers a very different perspective to my own insights and helps to build on them!
What impacted me the most was Duiker’s death, although we were left with hope I especially liked that last scene with Mappo and Icarium, finding out Mappo had used his last healing potions to heal those dogs, and then Icaroum saying he’d love to hear that story The end of the Chain of Dogs storyline at Aren was amazing. I certainly hope that priest that set up the betrayal gets what’s coming to him at some point later in the series. Also really liked that sequence with Kalam at the end, taking out those assassins in Malaz City. Classic fantasy stuff to balance out the more military-type story. The other scene that sticks in my mind is in the beginning with Fiddler almost nonchalantly takes out the soletaken sea monster with a cusser. I love that scene, reminds me of Indiana Jones vs the swordsman in Raiders. Great book, and I enjoy these dicsussions
Just finished the book for 1st time. Amazing book and I can’t wait to get into Memories of Ice. The Duiker in the tunnels was tough for me to read. I am extremely claustrophobic and was literally having a panic attack that whole scene. Just brilliant.
Hi Carlo, I completely understand that feeling being more than a touch claustrophobic myself. It was a very atmospheric section for me. I am really glad that you enjoyed the book. I hope that you enjoy Memories of Ice too. Thanks for watching.
Hey Phillip and AP, There's actually a passage in the book where Iskaral reveals he knows that he speaks what he leads people to believe is his internal monologue aloud on purpose and that he's not being ineptly devious but is being cunningly devious: '“The blathering of secrets,” the High Priest of Shadow uttered in a wholly different voice, “so they judge me ineffectual.” The others spun to face him. Iskaral Pust offered a beatific smile.' This is very reminiscent of how Kruppe speaks to Rallick in a totally normal and serious voice at the end of Gardens of the Moon. the mask drops for just one brief moment for each character.
Yay! You both said "Du-icker". That's the only pronunciation that makes sense to me. You also mentioned that we are fortunate to have "witnessed" this story. Erikson planted that seed with Karsa Orlong. We, the reader bear witness to epic events and the little things that make us care about so many characters. I also just realised that Kellanved was a powerful mage and Cotilion an uber assassin. Quick Ben is more powerful than Kellanved before he ascended. Kallam is the best assassin of his generation. How long would it take for them to take down Rallick Nom? History repeating?
Hi Andrew, I am glad that you enjoyed the video. As for Erikson planting the seed of witnessing, because Deadhouse Gates occurs before the element you mention, I would argue that this is where Erikson plants that seed. He has two separate historians act as witnesses to show the reader what is happening. And that theme is then taken up through the rest of the series and becomes synonymous with Karsa, but becomes a prevalent theme throughout the series via multiple moments and characters as you point out. Your points about Quick and Kalam are also really interesting, and it is a great parallel that the same 'team' or duo emerges so we can read it as this echo or parallel with Kellanved and Dancer, so it poses intersting thoughts for the future of the world.
@@ACriticalDragon True, Duiker in particular felt compelled to witness the Chain of Dogs. Another recurring theme is that of 'rebirth'. Sometimes literally, or by Ascending, but mostly it's the ordinary characters journey to new understanding. Consider how many characters change their names to reflect this? Then there are the Malazans, most of whom seem to have been named by Braven Tooth.
Wonderful, engaging discussion you two. Thank you for doing this read along with Phillip, A.P; beyond stimulating insights, you give the listener the tools to do the same. Thank you as well for your words on Felisin. If I may, I’d like to add to the discussion and why I find her to be one of the most compelling characters I’ve ever read. On a personal level, I read this book for the first time when I was in a very dark period in my life and I deeply connected with her. Finding a character going through similar mental struggles meant a lot; helped me recognize the own pitfalls I was in and helped me process these difficult and tangled emotions. Nothing in the series is more heartbreaking than her story for me, but oddly, incredibly moving and heartwarming come the end with you know who... On a literary level, I really appreciate the way Erikson challenges the classic “Damsel in distress” trope. You are invited to empathize with these characters because they are vulnerable and in a bad external position, but the empathy is hollow, because internally, they remain pure, innocent, and all too easy to love. The struggle is all external. Felisin flips that on its head. What happens when a character you are initially invited to feel sympathy for, begins to strain that sympathy with increasingly toxic and bitter behavior, and how far do you extend the olive branch? The exploration of the internal struggle of the character is immensely more engaging. The way this thematically primes the audience for the series is great. I find the exploration of the complex, broken psychology of this character so compelling in its depth and compassionate regard: Insecurities from childhood upbringing, inferiority complex, the way she raises her hackles to defend herself, tends the fire of anger and pain in her heart to keep herself going, the loss of self worth and self love due to her sisters betrayal -whom she’s tied her self value to- (and people wonder why she has a hard time trusting others). The way she compartmentalizes, dissociates, disconnects, retreats her mind as the only psychological way to siege the trauma, the drug addiction, the Stockholm Syndrome with her abusive, codependent relationship with Beneth, the spiral into self-destruction. The layers of her character: you know deep down she is very sensitive, compassionate and empathetic, and we see how this hurts her more and turns her into a tangled mess. The way we see her slowly, subtly heal across HoC, before the carpet is pulled from under us... and the way Erikson oh so deftly weaves this thread into the story and character of Tavore; the culmination of which is legit one of the most powerful moments of my life. Thank you for listening, I am privileged and honored to take part in such a provoking discussion on these incredible books, have a good day.
Thanks for watching, and thank you so much for the exceptional comment. That is fantastic insight and analysis, and is a wonderful articulation of the complexity of Felisin, and you describe so much of why her storyline impacts me so strongly. Thank you.
One thing that fascinates me, but is never made that explicit by Erikson, is this: just before the reawakening of Sha'ik, when Apsalar and Felisin are still stumbling through the desert, there is a throwaway musing by Crokus that Cotillion (and Shadowthrone) could take control of the Apocalypse through Apsalar and plunge the entire world into chaos. And the only reason that does not happen is because of a single decision of mercy made by Tavore by not murdering her sister but sending her away. The entire future of the world rests on single decisions of compassion made by individuals, with enormous consequences.
Hi, thanks for watching. That is an excellent point and is one of the very things that places Tavore at the centre of the narrative once the entire series is complete and you re-evaluate the narrative with that retrospective contemplation. Plus, as you say, it is a consequence of a compassionate act, something that goes to the heart of the themes of the MBotF. SO we have this wonderful combination of action/act and theme meeting in convergence. :)
Let the rambling begin.... I do agree Squint was more emotionally draining. While the crucifixion of Coltaine was tragic, it had been done before in a very Spartacus sort of way. The enormous murder (hmmm...) of crows was beautiful. But the agony of Squint is what hit me. It was unexpected and again it is showing the aftermath and consequences. The final scene at the end of MoI actually hit me harder than the actual Fall when it all came rushing back in just a few lines. Another scene not mentioned is the Red Crossing. It wasn't a tear jerker but I was in shock when the refugees go berserk. That just doesn't happen in books. Again, the extremes people can be driven to and then just breaking. And it caused me to stay up too late to finish the arc. I think the issue with Felesin is that there is almost too much. Another reviewer was tired of her continual 'navel gazing'. I can understand this opinion and there are times I think to myself 'I get it already move on' at such times. On my reread I did notice she is the author of a few epigraphs of GotM. Rereading them, while I do like them, they do seem out of character. Laseen is an enigma. Is she smart, is she too smart for her own good or is she just ruthless and incompetent? A little of all I think but at least you are granted some insight on her motivations. Friends of mine just read this and for them, they were invested in some of it but the whole path of hands was a little too bonkers for them. They also questioned why the army marched out of Aren and essentially committed suicide. This is also an example of the dangers of blind loyalty. And some Dune vibes of being wary of charismatic leaders which is even more pronounced in MoI.
Great points, thank you so much. I keep coming back to the fact that we all have different reactions to the various storylines, and for me it worked. But it felt different on the reread, and I really appreciated it far more. Thankfully there is so much in the book that I think most readers will have favourite storylines.
Every time I hear you guys talk about Malazan, I feel like I'm looking at one of those hidden 3-D posters in a college dorm room and I'm the only one who can't see what it's supposed to be.
I am very sorry you feel that way, that is certainly not the response Philip and I are trying to create. We are trying to be as open and as transparent as possible about our reactions to the text and why the text has created those responses in us. Are we not giving enough context or textual examples? Is there something more that we could do that would make this feel less like a puzzle that you are not being let in on?
@@ACriticalDragon No, you guys are doing a great job. It's just the way my brain processes the information. It's a bit like having a joke explained - you can understand it intellectually but that won't necessarily make it funny. I enjoy your discussions though. It's gives me something to aspire to. I'm going to do a reread of DG before moving on to MOI. I'm hoping that eventually I'll be able to enjoy these books as intended on the first pass.
@@ACriticalDragon Update: I've finished reading DG for the THIRD time and can announce that I finally get it. All of the pieces whirled together into one picture and it's freaking great from start to finish. I realize now I was being both obtuse and obnoxious before. You (and Philip) were a huge help in getting me to think about the text in a better way. So, thanks to you (both) for that and for putting up with me when I was being, charitably, on the whiny side. On to Memories of Ice next month.
this discussion is amazing but I feel like during the discussion about Lasseen at the end you guys are partially relying on knowledge that is past book 2. I've read up halfway through Memories of Ice and I've still not been convinced that Lasseen isn't lying to Kalam at that point in yhe series. for example, in Gardens, Lorn, who presumably is acting on the Empress' orders seems to be going after Whiskeyjack and the Bridgeburners when she plants the Finnest where the squad will be on duty. I always read that as her trying to take out everyone at the Fete at once including the Bridgeburners.... which presumably she wouldn't do without an indication from the Empress that the squad needs to be taken out. anyway, some great insight about Coltaine's Ascendency and "sleight of hand". thanks for doing these talks!
I take your point, but I can honestly say that I was only relying on GotM (and Dujek's points at the end) and the events of this book. No other influences. But Erikson always leaves space for individual interpretation and appreciation, so I think that this is probably me taking Laseen at her word and you doubt her more. Room for both approaches.
so is there a non spoiler past book 2 answer for why Lorn seems to think Whiskeyjack needs to go down while she is serving as the Adjunct, "an extension of the Empress' will"? she even says to Tayschrenn earlier in Gardens that everyone in the old guard (which means WJ) except Dujek does need to go.
Plans change. Lorn had been on that mission for a while, and the threat of the Pannion Domin, as well as the threat of the Whirlwind continued to build whilst she was 'on mission', and Laseen is nothing if not pragmatic, and is not wedded to any particularly rigid ideology. So Laseen can change her mind. She wanted rid of the Old Guard to consolidate her power, but she might just settle for 99% of them gone. We also know she had a history with Whiskeyjack from the prologue of GotM, so there could be a personal motivation there. Plus, Dujek hints that he has spoken to Laseen. Also, Pale was a disaster in terms of the outcome due to Tayschrenn's handling of the situation. Lorn, on the other hand, was singularly focused and not necessarily as flexible as Laseen when it came to changing situations. So, ultimately, based on what we know in GotM and DG, I think there is enough there to show that laseen has given up trying to get rid of the Old Guard as enough of them have gone. One squad left behind is not a threat to her throne, and she has bigger fish to fry. That isn't to say that if the threats to the Empire were immediately resolved that she wouldn't try to finish the job, but I think that she made the calculation that she has other priorities right now and easier way to handle them than an outright conflict that would take time, resources, and energy that she could expend elsewhere to greater effect. Kalam wiped out a lot of Claw that night, so that tool will have to be rebuilt. So she has a finite amount of resources and time, and has to deploy them for greatest effect. Or, at least, that is what I get from the various exchanges. I could be completely wrong.
Re-reading DG for first time in….phew….12 years?? And holy crap. This part of the story feels like a runaway horse Erickson was barely holding onto. It just told itself. I didn’t like it much the first time. I love it this time.
Something really cool/tragic I remember from a video another UA-cam posted about Felison is how compassionate she is early on in her choices (outside of her sister), and how her two male companions just see her as a someone who likes being abused rather then an abused victim. The person I dislike the most by far in this book and future books is Hebraic, but I can’t blame him. Spoilers for book 4 I remember a part where felison is finally free of the world winds influence, and is questioning everything that is happening, and the person that helped her get out of this state just is like ooops that can’t do go back to being under the influence. The world wind becomes her derhang after a while, and no one has the experience to reach out and help her. By the time she is free to make her own choices she gets killed by her own sister
That is a great point about Felisin, and I am planning a series of videos focusing on various characters as Philip and I go through the series, and Felisin is certainly one of them. We tried to keep the discussion to just the books we have covered on the re-read for those reading along. I hope that you enjoy some of the other videos on here.
I thought that of all the many, many deaths in the book, the saddest were Kulp’s and Duiker’s. Kulp got them safely through warrens of storms and fire, only to get killed by thousands of rats. Duiker made it finally to Aren, only to get betrayed and have one of the saddest and most horrible deaths - no mercy arrow from the sky like for Coltaine, just slow agonizing death. I enjoyed Gardens of the Moon, but to be honest Deadhouse Gates was a bit too depressing for me. It was well written though.
Philip talked about Chains, but neglected two of the most obvious: Dragnipur and the folks chained to the wagon in the sword. Given what Ganoes did there in GoTM, his aversion to chaining is especially important, especially given the role he will come to play. The other is even more obvious, since one of the books is named House of Chains. On Laseen, it’s never quite clear to me how much of what she is doing is the result of deep planning, and how much is simply trying to make the best of opportunities as they unfold. It seems clear that her instinct is to eliminate all threats to her power, and especially those that were tied to Kellanved. So I’m not sure I buy her line that it’s for the good of the Empire. It’s very convenient that everything for the good of the Empire is also aimed at consolidating her power. She knows enough not to make a Louis XIV pronouncement (L’etat, c’est moi). But there isn’t a lot in what she does to make me think that she thinks otherwise. And I believe she uses her arguments because she thinks they will work to her advantage.
Thanks for watching. And you are absolutely right about chains becoming a constant motif and symbol throughout the series, and that started back in GotM. As to Laseen, I don't think that she is selfless and thinking of the empire, rather I think that she is pragmatic and is doing the expedient thing to take care of the more pressing threats to the empire and therefore the more pressing threats to her power. So I think you are right in that she thinks it is to her advantage, but in this case, her interests and the interests of the empire may align.
The idea of laseen vs kalam being a great battle was not there in the first read. After crimson guard and witnessing laseens skill. Well wow! We should have known with creating the claw. But. Main ten never show us it. Was a highlight of crimson guard for me. Laseen. Surely dancer could beat her? Bet it was close before he ascended.
We might not have gotten the fight in Deadhouse Gates, but the entire sequence was building up to it, and then Erikson pulls the rug out from under us. I hope you enjoyed the video. I am really looking forward to discussing the Novels of the Malazan Empire with Philip Chase and Esslemont.
Another thing this book does is reveal how unreliable people's idea of the past is. Your made to believe for a while that Kellenved was the better ruler coz the characters you follow all had more power under him as them being a part of the old guard. They look at that time as a solution to their issues but when Kalam realises how wrong he is for thinking that killing Laseen will solve his or the empires issues, it shows that our past can betray our view of the present. This is also seen with the rebels in the seven cities as they hate their oppression by the Malazan empire and look to the past where they were free and crave it. But in this craving they commit atrocities and are now in a stage where they are only unified through a reglious prophet, the later books will come to show how this plays out but I can't imagine the lives of the people in the seven cities getting any better especially with tavore showing up. Also you get the sense that Kellenved was no better than Laseen with his need for personal revenge above the actual needs of the empire. He also seems creepy from many of the conversations we read.
Excellent point Jamie. The unreliability of the accounts, of people's memories, of the 'facts' as we are given them is an ongoing technique utilised by both Erikson and Esslemont. And it is a big aspect of one of my planned videos on Memories of Ice. Thanks for watching and commenting.
I love the discussions you hold on this series, but I find myself disagreeing with you, when you discuss ‘soldiers, military, and orders’. I am an officer in the US Air Force. While orders are important, we do not expect anyone to blindly follow those orders. I can give you countless examples of ‘soldiers’ questioning a decision by their leadership, and even providing a better alternative. Enlisted and Officers work as a team. A leader who doesn’t listen to the people under his/her command is a foolish leader. The enlisted provide a wealth of detailed experience, specifically to their ‘crafts’ or job skills. Each sees the field differently, the officer sees a broader scope and vision of what their commander is trying to achieve. The enlisted see the small details that may stand in the way of that broad vision. Both work together to achieve the mission. Times have changed for our military, our goal is to have a cohesive relationship that draws on the strengthens of each Branch, in efforts to create a synergistic effect. 40 years ago we were much more compartmentalized, and closer to what you discuss in your dialog. I would go as far as to say a military is most effective and efficient when it is equipped and trained, and each soldier is allowed to think for themselves, as a team and not as group. In today’s military we have built a culture that allows me to question or even respectfully challenge a decision or direction of my commander. At the end of the day, once a voice my opinion, the Commander still makes the call. As long as the decision (order) is legal, lawful, and ethical I can execute that decision to the best of my ability. It is no different in any other corporation, at the end of the day you do what you boss tells you. This establishes stability and order.
“Children are dying."
Lull nodded. "That's a succinct summary of humankind, I'd say. Who needs tomes and volumes of history? Children are dying. The injustices of the world hide in those three words.”
This is one of the most poignant quotations from the early books.
Yes. This conversation is most comforting, and comes right when you need it. "Children are dying" is pretty much the worst scenario that exists in the world and yet, as Lull says, it's was ever thus and ever will be, and look, it all keeps moving along anyhow. The worst that the world has to offer can be absorbed and it will not destroy the human will to keep going. Seal the breaches and keep moving. Absolutely love this stoic moment in Malazan.
This was an absolute blast, A.P.! Thanks once again for adding depth and richness to my reading of Deadhouse Gates. I hope others will enjoy hearing us discuss some of our favorite, most moving, most tragic, and funniest moments from book two of The Malazan Book of the Fallen. I've still got a "hangover" from reading it -- the sort that a great book induces -- and I can't wait for Memories of Ice!
You know I enjoyed the hell out of it! Not the last book hangover in the series, of that we can be certain 😉
@@robpaul7544 That’s for sure - several hangovers to come! And I’m delighted you enjoyed the chat, Rob!
This was a fantastic conversation and we could easily have spent another hour talking. The book is incredibly rich in story detail, character details, themes, but I am glad that we spent the majority of the time talking about the emotional journey, because that was the absolute high point of this book for me. There is still so much to unpack about Baudin, about Coltaine, about Kalam's entire journey, about the Rebellion, about the path of hands and Heboric and Felisin's journey, and we barely even mentioned the entire warren adventure with Stormy and Gessler.
@@ACriticalDragon well, why don't you guys make another video then, to cover up everything? We'd all be super happy to watch it :)
Kulp thinks that joke was too soon.
Great chat guys!
Just finished the non-spoiler version on Phillip’s channel. Now I want to hear all of the stuff I most likely missed in the book.
Great to see you here Mike. I hope that the read-a-long is going well.
There are a couple of other videos that I have up about Deadhouse Gates that you might find interesting or fun now that you have finished.
I really hope that you enjoyed the book.
Forgot to say, I am looking forward to your discussion of Deadhouse Gates. I am really enjoying following along with your reading of the series.
@@ACriticalDragon I’ll definitely check them out!
@@ACriticalDragon It should be fun. Really hoping to have you on for my Memories of Ice discussion.
I would love to do that. Just let me know when.
Deadhouse Gates made me realize I'm on my way to read a once-in-a-while masterpiece. Your in-depth conversations add so many layers to the already epic storytelling it further proves this point. DG is surely the most memorable book (not nearly the best, of course) of the series, because it's the first one where Steve punches you right in the guts and smashes your head against the mud. My personal favourite scene is when Duiker is the last person entering the city, and he takes the time to look back to whence they came and think. It's the most vivid moment to me, so cinematic.
Can't wait for the Memories of Ice discussion.
That scene with Duiker is again one of many beautiful, cinematic moments in the book that has such a gut wrenching sense of emotion behind it. This is such an incredibly powerful book and I have never understood the dislike that some readers have of it.
Yes, especially after, as you both said, we've come to know Duiker as this cynical, almost nihilistic guy who is constantly reminding Coltain they're all gonna die, they're doomed, going to get surrounded and crushed, etc... and then they miraculously succeed! Well, understandably, Duiker stops in front of the gate, probably struggling with reality or with himself, trying to accept what's happening, looking back to the gruesome, brutal path they've paved... Ratiocinates. God, that's such a strong scene!
Just when you think you’re over this book.....
“Permit me my friends to break your heart once more....”
It is amazing how a simple line can carry so much meaning and resonance because of the context.
Wonderful discussion! I have become ridiculously sentimental as I've gotten older, and my heart breaks for Felisin.
I like how you explained there isn't just one path to ascendency. There are many paths up the mountain, so to speak, and I find that so intriguing.
A.P., I know narrative analysis is your specialty, and it blows me away how you point out plot-points that should be so obvious from a narrative perspective. Perhaps this should have been super obvious, but of course Laseen wouldn't waste her time on one assassin! That made so much sense once you explained it.
I am loving the interactions between so many different, odd combinations of characters in this series. As you said, similarities can outweigh differences. Thank you for sharing so many wonderful insights.
Thank you Johanna, I am glad that people generally seem to enjoy these tings. I always worry that what I say is going to be boring to other people, or so obvious that I look like an eejit. But as long as at least some people are enjoying these things then I will keep doing them.
@@ACriticalDragon I have never found anything you have said to be boring or too obvious. I am so grateful you started your channel, and I have much to learn from you.
Yes! Just finished Deadhouse Gates yesterday so this is perfect timing!
Hi Maximilian, I am glad the timing worked out for you, and I hope that you enjoyed the discussion.
@@ACriticalDragon Very much so. I'm lucky to be watching these conversations basically in real time while I read the books. I find that while the greater themes stick with me, there are a lot of details that I forget quite quickly, mostly owing to the size and scope of these stories. Watching videos like this not only remind me of those details, but add several layers of critical analysis that, as an untrained reader, augment the experience. It's already been a wild ride and I can't believe I'm only 2 books in to the 10 book series.
I've been rereading Deadhouse Gates and what really got me emotionally is Duiker's last conversation with Captain Lull and Coltaine, when Duiker is told old men are wise, and he's a soldier, and after that Coltaine's feelings showing when Lull tells him Corporal List will stay and fight.
Perhaps I'm an utter sop, but the bittersweet deliverance of the refugees to Aren at the expense of the lives of the 7th Army, Wickans and Coltaine struck me just as hard on this re-read. Thank you both for this fascinating discussion. I very much look forward to your discourse on the remainder of the series.
It is a powerful and emotive scene, but on this read other scenes struck me even harder.
Love your discussions. They are always insightful and enlightening. If ever I read the series again, which I certainly hope to do some day (so many books, so little time...), I'll definitely come back here for a re-listen.
About Laseen, I don't think I can ever like her either, however, I did find myself standing in her corner, and even feeling for her, in The Return of the Crimson Guard.
I stayed away from any online chats about Deadhouse Gates until I finished and word-vomited at my own camera, but this was top of my list to get to chaps!
Just finished the other day and uploaded my own video today so here I am with the feet up listening to both of you.
I love some of the parallels and deviations in our interpretations.
As a ridiculous person myself, Kruppe is the superior ridiculous character. An underestimated funny man! Iskaral is.... Nuts 😂 Felisin was my favourite character from the get-go, and Mappo-Icarium was my favourite subplot of the two books so far.
Great stuff AP and Philip! Really appreciate both of you!
Carlos.
I saw your Deadhouse Gates video today. It was excellent. Onions indeed.
@@ACriticalDragon I expect big green ogres in future books, if not, Steven will be hearing from me.
Haha.. just finished this chat a few minutes ago!
Super glad to have you fellas as virtual companions as I progress through the books
@storytoob well, if you ever want to chat, just drop me an email.
@@ACriticalDragon oh absolutely will do!
I just finished reading Deadhouse Gates yesterday and i can now finally watch this talk !
I absolutely loved this book and Deadhouse just might be one of my favorites books to date.
The storytelling, the depth of characters, the humor, the deeper meanings often layed out as a metaphor as a prelude to events.
This was the perfect book to follow Gardens of The Moon.
I also appreciated the reference to our friend the weather vane in Malaz city near the end of the book
Enjoyed the discussion! When you were talking of Baudin’s death and Felisin’s response, it brought me to tears just as it did in the book. In my thinking on Felisin, I think part of the reason I was drawn to her character is she reminds me of some of the teenage boys and girls on my caseload when I was a caseworker years ago. Trauma changes us and sometimes we act out in unhealthy ways as a result. I saw many her actions as cries for help. I am very interested to see how her storyline progresses in the series.
Hi Carolyn.
I find the arc of Felisin, Heboric, and Baudin to be incredibly compelling because of the complexity. None of them have clean hands, but they are all victims, and each is broken in a different way.
Erikson doesn't pull punches in presenting the difficulties of victims and how their behaviour can be destructive, but he always brings us back to the need for understanding and compassion.
I would never describe reading those sections as pleasurable, but they are powerfully compelling, challenging, and emotionally devastating.
Just finished DG for the first time. I have lots to say, however i’ll keep it short. The most impactful moment for me was the final scene between Mappo and Icarium. Right from the start, we see that Mappo is in immense emotional pain but the reason why is elusive until later on in the book. Personally, I was somewhat dismissive of Mappo’s turmoil. The final scene truly put me in Mappo’s shoes, however. We now know why Mappo is so torn… and when Icarium says, as he has multiple times across the book, that he feels ‘close’ the true weight of Mappo’s feelings hit me. A beautifully circular story.
Love these videos AP, always enlightening.
Another excellent conversation. This series will be so enriching and informative. My take on Laseen: she is a female Octavian: unprepossessing, a cold fish, someone who keeps an eye firmly and coolly on the bigger picture. I don't like her either, but she is the necessary technocrat for this Malazan Empire.
Hi Johan, you make the great point. Laseen is a great character and being confronted with her reality, and the issues that she faces as empress, is a great moment in the books that makes that perceived anti-climax of the lack of battle so rewarding for me.
I’m reading memories of ice now and this videos had helped me to refresh my memory 👀💖 thank u so much!!
The scene between Laseen and Kalam is great. It shows the depth of Laseen as a character. She is not the evil moustache twirling antagonist. Her actions and decisions are rational not just to her, but to us as well.
Hello Francois, thank you for watching and commenting. I absolutely agree with you. That scene is essential in establishing Laseen as more rounded, developed, and interesting, than the reported descriptions of her in Gardens of the Moon.
My feeling towards this was a toll of sorrow, as I read this it was exhausting at first, but as I continued and finished ,and I realize that was what you where supposed to feel all that pain and the sliver of hope from the small victories. That's just brilliant and cinematic. Filasin was irritated at first but I stopped and thought about her age and everything that was taken away from her and having to grow up so fast for survival. The bromance with Mappa and Icarium was beautiful,the tragedy at the end truly stays with you.
Hi Edwin, thanks for commenting, and I completely agree that this book illustrates Erikson's ability to take us on a very emotional journey (while still providing compelling action and comedy, magic and battles) and so this I think is a book that should tell a reader, 'trust the author, he knows what he is doing, there is a reason for the structure, the characters, the plot threads and the themes, this will all pay off.'
definitiely cried multiple times during this book.
The T'lan Imass suffering to seal the Warren, the fall of coltaine, Squint, and the crucifixions were all gutwrenching.
Rest assured, you are not alone in shedding tears while reading this one. But it is really interesting that so many of us identify different key moments as the ones that finally make us break.
I finished reading Deadhouse Gates today for the first time. Squint is definitely what broke me. I absolutely hated Pormqual. The whole Chain of Dogs storyline is amazing.
@@TheBlueOwlX *hands you a badge* you have survived bearing witness to the Chain of Dogs. Congratulations
Oh guys, this was lovely! Your collaboration is a very warm and friendly one. I love the amazing analysis you provide and the laughter that you guys share with us. I could watch you for hours!
Thank you, really, and I hope that even after the main 10, you will continue with Kharkanas and with the Bauchelain books and with character analysis and so on. Your vids make for an enjoyable experience, and you both give a warm, cozy, familiar feeling, it's like watching my smart friends talk.
A.P. - that Subterranean Press edition of GotM with Rake on it seems to come closer and closer to the camera (in case I am mistaken, my bad). Will you make a bookshelf tour video for us? I would love to see your bookshelves in more detail :)
I second the bookshelf tour request -- great idea!
I've already recognised some beauties there, from Feist and Hobb to some Forgotten Realms ones I believe - but would love the full tour!
Many of the shelves look double packed as well, so probably not an easy ask 😅
Don't let Philip fool you, he is mean and nasty once the camera isn't rolling. I hear he steals sweets from children and folds over the pages in his books instead of using a book mark. He is a monster.
But thanks for watching and commenting. These chats are so much fun to do, and I only wish that we could do longer videos on these books. So I am really looking forward to the rest of the series , as well as taking time to look at Esslemont's books, and some of Erikson's novellas (especially the ones I am in).
oh... and no book shelf tour. I will continue to shuffle books around in the background to mess with people, but I have to maintain an air of mystery :)
@@ACriticalDragon Stealing candy from children is one of my favorite pastimes! But I only make dog ears on other people’s books, not my own, so it’s a good job you’re not allowing me near your Subterranean Press editions of Malazan. 😁
I finished Deadhouse Gates last week and really enjoyed this video. Even after and hour, there are so many things I was hoping you guys would talk about! So much density in this book. (I really enjoyed the book). Thanks for the video!
You are very welcome, I am glad that people enjoy these conversations.
Another powerful watch guys and brilliant insightful analysis as always, I have been saving these reviews until I got to The crippled God as excellent way to refresh the story in my head as I go into book 10 currently on page 80 already some stella moments. Think i have been so lucky reading these books in my 40s and having the time ( thanks to furlough :) ) as I have grown and evolved so much as Person through work and travel etc and has really helped me appreciate and understand the complexity of Steven Erickson story telling and character development that even just 10 yrs ago I may of missed or not fully understood.
Hi Stephen, thanks for watching. I have found that, like you, as I have gotten older my tastes in literature, what I find engaging, have evolved.
Thank you so much for doing this series. I am reading the series through for the first time and watching these videos after finishing the corresponding book is such a wonderful experience.
You're very welcome, I am glad that you are enjoying them.
THANK YOU. These talks after I finish each book are such a pleasure to look forward to, and then listen to.
I am so very glad that you enjoy them. Thank you for the kind words.
Great discussion! First time viewer
Psssh... I can't even think about the Littlefoot's mother theme from "Land Before Time" without tearing up... oh, there I go...
This book didn't leave a particularly strong impression on me when I read it the first time. I think I was too eager for a follow up to Gardens and wasn't in a place to give this book a chance. I was also either in my last year of high school or my first year of college so I was probably just looking for instant gratification to offset all the uncertainty that was going on at the time. Plus, I didn't feel any significant attachment to Fiddler, Apsalar, and the other carryovers from Gardens. I think I got through this book fairly quickly and then found myself lost but really enjoying House of Chains which continues some of this book's storylines. Like many readers though, Memories of Ice really cemented me as a Malazan fan.
Fast forward to sometime during my post-grad education - this book had a tremendous impact on me during my second readthrough. I think that's because I had been strong-armed into reading A Song of Ice and Fire by some very enthusiastic friends who promised that it would be unlike any fantasy book I'd ever read before; however, I felt really let down after finishing each book. When I picked up Deadhouse Gates a second time, I really savored the experience of the book itself, but I also couldn't help but feel like it did things better for me than Martin's series (I'm trying really hard to avoid saying I didn't like it, therefore, it's a bad book, but that is how I felt at the time.)
I could go on forever about this book, but I'll just point out that one of the things that I really noticed about this book was how new (to me) and nuanced the different cultures felt. Western fantasy books (but also fantasy in general) have a tendency to rely upon cultural analogs which serve as a kind of lodestone for the reader. As you read about the world setting, it's easy to just drop the different people into more recognizable categories - you find your I-can't-believe-they're-not-Vikings, faux french circa 100 years war, various Celtic/Pictish stand-ins, and so on and so forth. (I seem to recall there being a letter between Howard and maybe Lovecraft about this vis a vis the Hyborian Age.) There are often all these very distinct cultures that dominate the fantasy world, but their analogs are a bunch of relatively small, neighboring countries. Meanwhile, to the extent that there are non-Western cultures represented at all, you have other cultures that are stand-ins for Arabs and Mongols. They generally have little to no cultural diversity beyond maybe a subculture that seems more Persian or Hun-like.
One of the things I enjoyed about Gardens was that there were relatively few of these analogs. Sure the Malazan Empire could be any of the Roman empires and Darujistan immediately brings to mind a desert setting, but I couldn't make any connections with the Moranth, Barghest, Rhivi, etc. Deadhouse Gates goes in a somewhat different direction though by having a large, non-western setting that's very name speaks of different cultures (7 at least, but as the book goes on you quickly lose count of the various clans, tribes, and nations both depicted and mentioned.) There's also Coltaine and the Wickans; I absolutely connected them with some of the American First Nations (the Crow Nation being just a little too on the nose sometimes), but as the book went on I couldn't help but draw parallels between Chief Joseph and the Nez Perce, on the one hand, and the Chain of Dogs on the other. I can't speak to what degree any of these cultural depictions were problematic or overly-generalized, but I appreciated that it was something that I really hadn't encountered before in fantasy.
Alright, I've rambled on here, but I'll just wrap up by noting that Deadhouse Gates was my favorite book during my 2nd readthrough and I found myself more closely following the characters it introduced as they show up in the rest of the series than I had on my first time around.
Completely agree on the cultural aspects. And on the dislike for Song of Ice and Fire 😅
You raise some brilliant points, and I am only sorry that Philip and I didn't get a chance to talk about almost any of the things you raise here.
But I have to say that the originality of the world that Esslemont and Erikson created is one of the great joys of the books. It is an engaging and enthralling world. Is it perfect? Nope. But when compared to so much other fantasy with its Eurocentric views or bald analogy races, this was an amazing breath of fresh air in the genre.
Great discussion and I look forward to more! Good luck with the channel moving forward AP :)
Thanks so much. I hope that Philip and I get to do a lot more of these and that they continue to entertain.
Love this, recently fallen into the MalazTube scene. Watched the fist part and glad you made your own channel. Phillip Chase is such a genuine communicator and AP you have sooo much "behind the scenes" knowledge, that a layperson doesn't have. It's really elucidating and I feel like I'm in the discussion by proxy. What happens during the fall of Coltaine, doesn't just break squint... he was just the obvious face of the breaking. Blistig and others on the wall were also broken, just to a lesser degree. However, they couldn't break all the way like Squint did. Blistig had to maintain a bold face of stoicism as a leader, really THE leader at the time. The impact on Blistig is seen later in the series (trying not to spoil).
Hi Josh, that is a great point.
I am glad that you enjoyed the video. Hopefully there are a few more that will interest you.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
Great video! new to the channel, right now just ending Memories of Ice. Deadhouse Gates was a great reading for me, especially the part about Coltaine and Duiker. That part reminded me, firstly, of the Anabasis. But in second place, is the Prince of Nothing Trilogy from Scott Bakker. More specifically, the second book, The Warrior Prophet. I read those books like 20 years ago, the only trilogy I read more than 3 times... and even today still amazes me how good Bakker is, and how unknown to the majority of the fandom. So unknown that only the three first books are translated into Spanish, the rest of his books remain without translation (and me without reading them)
Bakker is a fantastic writer, and those books are excellent. A little too dark for my personal preference, but they are very good.
Let's hear it for Bent and Roach!
2 Minutes in and I got chills and tear eyed. This book was incredible and heartbreaking.
I just finished this book for the first time. I actually started crying when Duiker and the chain of dogs see the gates of Aren. You feel like you've been on this hopeless journey with them, and they finally see a sight they believed impossible.
I am so down for this content. Thank you both!
Hi. I am glad that you enjoyed it. Philip and I will be doing one of these for each of the books. I hope that you enjoy the others as we get to them.
Chain of dogs is a favorite but this like in all the books, as you mentioned, has a lot to offer I really loved Icarium and Mappo because I found out right away the mention of the name in one of the conversation between Baruk and Rake in GotM but also because Mappo POV. Loved to follow Fiddler and crew and Kalam was also glue/transition from that to the Book of Dryjhna (Shaik Leoman and toblakai) then to Demon then to Keneb and Culminates with Lassen. Then Duiker binding Culp-Gelser group to Felisin-Heboric and getting back to Coltain saving the Malazan civilians while facing the rebels single handed and how everything is intertwined how the journey of each POV is a pillar of construction towards the story itself: Masterfully done 10 times in this series I must say.
Structurally it is a brilliantly interwoven and interconnected novel. The themes, actions, characters all blend to make a great symphony of story. It is incredible work and great literature.
Squint always gets me. It is amazing, every time I reread the waterworks start. Nether also doesn't help my emotional state either. I drew a piece on it under the name Enaglio.
Sometimes people deserve a poke.
Kulp becomes pulp.
😂
Great discussion once again! Love these so much 😊
All great points, and I fully agree that Coltaine's end is the obvious big heartwrenching moment on a first read.. but the others are even more so on rereads.
I shouldn't have started watching this as I sat down with my dinner - choking up over Squint in those first minutes of the conversation put a spin on my meal 😅😢
You touched on him briefly, but I want to add in some praise for Baudin. Yes he comes across as a monster on first and maybe second read.. but he isn't.
Yes he is an assassin, he is a killer - trained and professional. He is pragmatic, but he doesn't kill for sport or pleasure.
Killing that old noblewoman in the beginning is brutal - but she wouldn't have survived the journey let alone the slavecamp. And it allowed them to safely reach the ship, while he had very few options of protecting Felisin chained up as he was.
Which is point two.. you already said he stood by Felisin best he could, keeping his word. He had the _choice_ to go the Ottateral mines, it was a choice he accepted! And he never betrays the one who asked him, or the one he needs to protect. We can argue about his methods, but he acted to the best of his abilities and seemingly in good faith.
He is one of the side characters I love best in the book.
On another side note, Duiker is a word in Dutch which means 'diver' (pronunciation of the 'ui' lies somewhere between 'rune' and 'dike', as a single sound instead of 'u-i').
Additionally 'divers' means something like 'varied' or 'multiple' in Dutch as well.
Always wondered if those were deliberate - in Erikson's case hard to imagine they're not.
Thanks again guys!
I posted some more thoughts and questions on the GotM video on Philip's channel - which he reposted on the non-spoiler Deadhouse video. Would be great to have your thoughts there as well!
Looking forward to the Memories of Ice discussion already, can't wait 🤓
Those are fantastic points. I think that Philip and I could probably do another hour on this book easily. There was so much we skipped over simply because we were trying to hit a lot of the high points. But I will try to record a few videos on some of the other aspects we glossed over a little.
@@ACriticalDragon
I could, and would, listen to either one of you or both talking about these books for hours. No pressure, just pure appreciation and admiration 😄
I believe that I heard Brent Weeks say in an interview once that he is happy to write a scene that makes the reader throw their book at the wall across the room, just as long as they then walk over to pick it back up and keep reading. That's what Coltaine's death kinda felt like to me.
Throw a book across a room... and encourage it... that Brent Weeks is a monster :) :) :)
But he has a point, most scenes that evoke such strong emotions certainly is something worth reading and to be proud of writing.
That was a great listen. Thank you guys.
You are very welcome. Glad you enjoyed it!
Nearly through my third re-read of Deadhouse Gates....for me if not the best of the Malazan the most emotive. Like Philip tears flow.
This was fun. I have too much to say, so I will keep most of it to myself :P But I did enjoy your point about Coltain's ascencion. I always thought of it as the natural path that powerful people of his tribe take, the rebirth and all, just like Sormo Enath was reborn. People like Anomander ascended mostly because of the power of their will, the power of their soul. And I had thought of Coltaine the same way. But Wickans don't ascend, not normally, precisely because of this cycle of rebirth. Which is why your point makes so much sense. And there is Felisin. I vibrated with her story from the very beginning. There was recently a conversation on the group about what happened to her and the value of consent given in difficult conditions. But I need to keep some of that ammo for my own discussions with Steve about Deadhouse Gates :P
Thanks Claudia. It is a fantastic book, and there is so much to talk about in it. As well as ample room for different interpretations. Philip and I have our views, but that doesn't mean that we are the final arbiters of what things mean :)
@@ACriticalDragon But you were entirely right about it. I just hadn't considered it before. And while I stand for my choice not to have a favorite book among the ten, if I absolutely had to pick one, it would probably be Deadhouse Gates. I always prefered the magic over everything else and other books have a lot more of it. But there is something about the raw humanity that Steve shows us in Deadhouse Gates that is overwhelming. I absolutely adore this book.
While the quest groups can be viewed as reminiscent of D&D quest group, there is one fundamental difference in my opinion. The traditional quest group is brought together by a singularity of purpose; maybe throwing the ring into the fires. Erikson’s groups have this complexity of motives, including some of the characters just trying to survive and make sense of their situation. Brilliant!
The point about Coltaine’s Ascendant-like status was something I completely missed but makes so much sense now.
Finally finished last night! Probably took me a few months, but that's a good pace for me historically. I got to feel Raraku's grind with some of the characters. Really glad you mentioned that bait and switch between Aspalar and Felisin, loved that.
I will pour one out for Kulp.
Really dug all the plotlines. Chain of Dog's confused me initially, but once in motion and I had the names down I was in. Something about those child Warlocks was very heavy metal.
+1 point for a wizard soiling themselves getting blasted with their own spell
+1 point for Kalam murdering the bandits
+1 point for dancing Iskarel Pust
Kulp or Pulp? Why not both? 😂
@@ACriticalDragon brutal!
It's an hour long and barely feels like it scratches the surface. Although you did cover a lot of great points! I just mean it's impossible to discuss everything there is to discuss in these books.
I just want to say thank you for these videos they are helping me enjoy the books more. Honestly I didn't love DHG as much as I liked Gardens but I definitely appreciate it more after watching this exchange. I read it in about 4 days And I think that was one of my issues. Also I kept hearing the end was so amazing and sad and after I finished I was like "which part was supposed to be sad...." . I'm gonna slow down a lot more with book 3. I also hate desert stories so this might just have been not my book HOWEVER I would read it again just for the Mappi Icarium storyline. That alone made it worth it. Such a beautiful friendship.
I am sorry you didn't enjoy Deadhouse Gates as much as Gardens, but I am very glad that there was aspects of it that improved after you saw the video. Reading it in 4 days is impressive. But, if you could please forgive the unsolicited advice, taking a bit more time as you read might help you enjoy the books more. Slowing down helps us take in and think about what is happening, and the connections being made.
That being said, read in whatever way you want. If you love blitzing through books, then have at it.
Thanks for watching.
@@ACriticalDragon oh ya, I totally realize that now. I heard that the ending was amazing so I was expecting some big WTF NO WAY moments or some big surprise or reveal so I was just pushing through it all hours of the day through multiple mediums and was let down. Needless to say, that's not a very enjoyable way of consuming literature. I realize now that I should have been more present with the characters. I'm in Memories of Ice now and taking my sweet time and absorbing every sentence. Very enjoyable so far. I look forward to sometime in the future coming back to Deadhouse and giving it the time and attention it probably deserves.
I thought I'd gotten cried out earlier in the day when I listened to the Fall of Coltaine (as I always seem to do, the re-read/re-listen always catches me outside or among people who think I need help because I'm unashamedly weeping). But I teared up again as I was listening to the two of you at the beginning. And I am nodding my head emphatically while hearing the explanation of how and why Coltaine ascended (I believe that he did ascend, even if he is transplanted in a new, child body). There is a bit where I forget whom Duiker talks to, but the soldier says about Coltaine that "He's a cold blooded lizard, but he's all ours." And there is a similar conversation where someone says that they are no longer soldiers of the Empire, they are Coltaine's. The cult of Coltaine started among his own people and grew among the 7th Army. But, as you say, the true power of this legendary man shows up among his enemies or else the tribes that should oppose him, but he ends up becoming their god.
I'm pretty much a Coltaine worshiper myself, but upon this latest re-read, I was hunting down signs of him still being human. Like his lunatic laughter that sets the dogs howling and the punch aimed at Gesler, the puzzlement and amusement during the sleight of hand scene and his fury when he thinks he's being challenged to a duel and Duiker says he cannot act like a warleader. That flash of anger at the lack of choice even about his own ending is such an amazing insight into the inner landscape of someone who is outwardly so stoic and implacable with literally the weight of the world on his shoulders.
Deadhouse Gates is always going to be my favorite Malazan book and one of my all time favorite books. It's also the book that never fails to bring the waterworks. Out of nowhere, I'll catch myself saying "Like a prayer, Squint, like a Hood damned prayer." And then I'll tear up and want to go back to the book, no matter where I am and what I'm doing at the time.
Thanks for watching and the thoughtful comment.
This is such an emotionally impactful novel. I am so pleased that you continue to feel that emotional resonance, even on a reread.
I think that speaks volumes about the power of literature in general (and specifically Erikson's work) to move us.
Ps. Sorry for making you tear up.
Loved the analysis
I am very glad that you enjoyed it. @PhilipChase is great to talk to about these books.
In some ways, the weight that Coltaine carries makes me think of Druss the Legend, created by David Gemmell. They are a breed apart. They inspire a lot of hero worship, although in Malazan that reaches a different level. They know they face almost certain death, but they have a duty and they do it. Death can be cruel. War is brutal. But there is still a beauty in men and women of principles, no matter the cost. I'm not trying to make Coltaine more noble than he is, but there is something about his character that really speaks to me. So many of these characters in this particular book really spoke to me. I have never experienced anything remotely like Felisin, but I instantly related to her fear, her anger, her everything in this book. Even when I hated some of her actions, whispering, "No, baby girl, not that," I understand what was driving her.
I started out completely uninterested in Duiker, and then he became the character I couldn't wait to get back to. I was heartbroken and infuriated by his death.
Erickson has really created something beyond just fun fantasy. He's examining humanity in all its parts. It hurts to read sometimes, but it's so well-written, I cannot look away.
I definitely related more personally to the characters in this book much more than Gardens of the Moon, maybe because I was struggling to get my bearings in this world. I still liked many of them and look forward to those stories as well, but DG just felt so personal.
I'm learning so much, watching you guys geek out over this series. I love every minute. Thank you for sharing.
Hi Andrea, thank you for the really interesting and thoughtful comment.
I honestly had not thought to compare Coltaine with Druss. The Grizzled Veteran trope/archetype is so engrained in Druss' character that I saw him as very different to Coltaine. But I see your point.
I agree that Erikson's work goes far beyond a simple story for fun and entertainment, but attempts to get the reader to engage with the human condition, including its darker aspects, and tries to get us to empathise and understand situations, experiences, and perspectives that are not our own.
Duiker's journey as a world weary cynic, taking the reader along with him, as he moves from his cold, cynical evaluations, to those moments when he starts to believe in Coltaine and the journey, to those final moments in Aren... that is a powerful journey.
Felisin's journey is harrowing in a completely different way, but we follow along with the narrative as each time we are asked to understand her perspective, her hurt, and her pain.
Mappo's journey, begun with a lie and, against his better judgement, ends with true friendship....
All these journeys in the book present us with such nuanced insights into the complicated, messy, emotionally fraught world of the human condition. I love his writing for that nuance.
I hope that you enjoy the rest of the series, as you have seen from Deadhouse Gates, it is not easy, we as reader get put through an emotional wringer just like the characters, but I honestly believe that it is worth the journey.
The bit with the captain of the sappers honestly made me laugh out loud. I had to stop reading for a minute just to process the sheer comedy of that moment which stood out all the more because it was surrounded by such suffering.
It is such a great scene. One of my favourites in the book.
That scene where the girl and the old man show up to take up the Shaik's mantle ... was a 'sleight of hand' by Erikson
Just hit the mid point of this on my re-read and want to share a quote after reading the redeployment of the servants.
"Rich people are always rich people first and whatever else they are second.'
The Book of Cerebus
Fitting.
Just finished this book for the first time and it ran rough shod over my heart. It was an amazing experience. Near the end I was having to read a section. Set it down and breath. Pick it up and read a section. Set it down and pick up Les Miserables for some lighter reading, etc. I have not read anything more wearying and beautiful before.
The scene of the historian walking among the refugees was what brought tears to my eyes.
Pormqual's death was not enough. He needed some Count of Monte Cristo levels of life destruction.
I'm still reeling.
Also it was hilarious! It's so good.
I am glad to hear that you enjoyed it. This book packs quite the emotional punch.
Regarding Shadowthrone and Iskaral Pust, maybe their fragmented minds are the results of drawing on their warren? Think of other magic users, and how their ways of thinking and their personalities so often seem to be an almost direct reflection of the Warren they draw on.
Hi Karl, thanks for watching. That is an interesting theory.
I felt so much for Squint. Who the hell would want that job. It made me want to throw the book across the room. As for Mappo his service and sacrifice touched me the most throughout the whole story.
Enjoyed this discussion immensely. It gives me so much more to think about, particulary regarding Coltaine's path to ascendancy. Thank you so much for your discussion of Felisin. This is my first reading of the series and I have to say I was struck for how much dislike there was for this character in online discussions. Personally, I was immediately pulled in by her story and found it heart breaking. So it was very disheartening to see so much online rancor towards her. It shouldn't take a female perspective or personal experience with childhood abuse to understand what was going on with her character so I was very pleased to hear your and Philip's discussion of her. This book has so much to process for a first-time reader so thank you both again for this video. Also, Iskaral Pust is such an ear worm of a character name that I don't think it will ever stop residing in my brain!
I am so glad that you enjoyed the video. Reading can be such a personal experience, and we all react to different characters and different narrative events based on so many factors in our own lives and circumstances as well as what is in the text, but I am glad that the discussion that Philip and I had was of interest to you.
My initial reaction to Felisin's storyline when I first read the book years ago was far less sympathetic, and I think a lot of that had to do with my focus and interest on the 'story' of the Chain of Dogs and my impatience to always return to that. As a result I didn't pay attention to Felisin as carefully as I now do and was always impatient to return to the 'main story' as I saw it then. But my perspective has certainly changed in that regard now that I have returned to the series.
Thanks so much for this!
You're so welcome. Thanks for watching
great as always.
however, no mention of the Gral horse and the fate of 'brokenface' /sad noice
also, this is then erikson (for me at least) started leaning towards the ancient classics - DG could well have been a greek myth.
Thanks for watching and commenting. Always good to hear from you.
Great point about the stronger classical influence, and I am sorry that we didn't get around to mentioning and discussing absolutely everything in the whole novel... but we only had an hour. We tried out best :)
A little late to the game but just finished yesterday and man it was a heavy beautiful book. I think I had tears for the entire last 40 pages or so
Hi Ceekay,
It is never about who finishes first, it is all about the journey.
I am so glad that you enjoyed it. I think that it is a brilliant, powerful, and emotive book.
I hope that you enjoy the rest of the series too.
Follow up comment because I'm just getting to the end of the video, Pust reminded me of Rafiki from Lion King haha
For me the chain of dogs is one of the most beautiful episode read in a fantasy books (I'm 45 and I readed a lot of fantasy...) One question: why Fiddler does'nt tell to Kalam about Kimlock encounter fearing that Kalam would have kill Kimloc and every one in his family? I can't understand why. Maybe I miss something. You have my subscrition, great channel
PS: sorry for my english...
Hi, thanks for watching. I think that because Fiddler and Kalam are there secretly, and Kimloc knows that they are there, and has discovered their plan to assassinate Laseen (he can read minds) it puts their mission in jeopardy and could get them killed. Fiddler trusts that Kimloc won't betray them, but Kalam is an assassin and the easiest way to guarantee that Kimloc won't betray them is for him to kill Kimloc. That way he could not possibly betray them.
I've just finished! These are my thoughts:
Deadhouse Gates - Steven Erikson
A (basically) non-spoiler review
"Deadhouse Gates" is the second novel in the Malazan Book of the Fallen.
It immediately differs from the first title of the series because the setting and characters are almost completely different (those of the first book will in fact return in the third novel). However, it is not the only thing to change: if "Gardens of the Moon" was a puzzle to put together, regarding a very narrow military operation, a conspiracy and the interference of the gods in the affairs of humans, in this work the horizon becomes wider and the themes become even deeper and more complex.
"Deadhouse Gates" presents two of the darkest, most violent and pessimistic storylines I have ever read (some officially grimdark books would seem like a happy story by comparison): one is about the long march of thousands of refugees, expelled from the occupied cities because of the war, and escorted by a taciturn and brilliant commander, whose path includes numerous battles and the crossing of an entire continent; the other is the most credible and painful representation of the Stockholm Syndrome (and the consequences of abuse) that I have ever read.
Between these two main lines there is also an undercover operation, the search for a mystical door and the story of a poignant friendship broken by centuries of dark secrets. All against the background of the remains of extinct civilizations, among the pottery shards of fallen empires, and among the ghosts of restless fathers and mothers.
The cyclical repetition of violence, the awareness of the past, the illusion of control, the chains that bind individuals for better or for worse, and finally the journey, are the most important themes of this novel, topics on which the author wants stimulate the reader to reflect, to confront. However, he was skilled enough to insert a lot of humor, which is breathtaking between a tragedy, a slaughter and a gutting. In fact, I found Erikson's irony quite brilliant already in the first novel, and therefore I am happy that despite the tone of this work, the humor has not been put aside.
There are obviously moments of confusion, given the author's style aimed at an all-encompassing "show don't tell": as in the previous novel, many things are understood and interpreted by the end of the reading, while others remain pending: the feeling is that this series is a huge story divided into ten novels, so I look forward to see evolve what remains unanswered in this novel.
Not an easy book (as I suppose the whole series), halfway between genre and literature: focused on themes, written with artistic criteria sometimes far from ease of use, but with enormous space given to world building and action.
A book that stays in the head after finishing it.
And that pushes you, after almost 900 pages, to immediately start the sequel, of almost 1200 pages.
It will be a long, long journey.
5/5
Hi Gabriele, That was a really interesting and thoughtful review. I hope that you enjoy the rest of the series. You point out some really great aspects. Thank you for sharing it.
DG is my favorite book of all time! All time! How ppl give this less than 5 stars is beyond me! They must be too young for this... Young souls. This book changed my life, my perspective more than so many personal experiences ever have.
Soo i finished Deadhouse Gates last night. I didn t get any sleep afterwards. I cried sooo much especially during the second part of the book. Don t get me wrong i loved it and i think i have not read anything like that ever before. But now,although i want to read Memories of Ice, i think im gonna take a break read something else and come back again in a short while. This book broke me emotionally!
Hi Katerina, I am so glad that you enjoyed the book, although enjoyed might be the wrong word.
There are few novels that I have read that had the level of emotional impact that Deadhouse Gates had.
Take a break. Read some happy books. Enjoy the season. There is no rush to get to the next book.
Have a great week.
@@ACriticalDragon No enjoyed is the perfect word. Even with things that makes us sad overall when we get through them what remains is catharsis its enjoyment. I really enjoyed the journey but yeah i ll turn to something "happier" and return to MoI after Christmas i think. Thanks for the great discussions on the videos for these books they have helped a lot. Have a nice week too A.P. 😊
I definitely think the part that hit me hardest was Duikers final moments and the realisation that the story of the chain of dogs went with him. Especially when considering Coltaines comments that the real thing the Empress can't lose is the stories of her soldiers or such.
It seems the Whickians are inspired by Native American culture. This combined with the idea of oral histories, which often hold special importance to Indigenous and First Nation cultures really add a tragedy to the loss.
I was also curious if there are any more plans for a breakdown of the prologue in relation to the epilogue for Deadhouse Gates.
They feel thematically connected, between the idea of hoods sprites/flies and the crows involved in the final scene. I feel something great lurks in there that I can't quite fully grasp!
Thanks for the great videos!
Hi Nick, those are great points.
I am going to do a video on some of the techniques that Erikson uses (for example, the echoes and returns to images, symbols, and metaphors to create thematic closure and resonance) but I am going to hold off on some of those until Philip Chase and I have done the full read through. So, at the minute, the plan is to do more of the whole series overviews later on in the year when I can comfortably use spoilers from across the series without a lot of the end of series information altering my reading of the books as I go through.
I hope that makes sense?
@@ACriticalDragon Hey A.P, that definitely makes sense!
Almost immediately after typing the previous question I saw you posted a video about symbolism in Deadhouse Gates which was great! It definitely added to my own interpretation of the epilogue and helped me make some thematic connections!
I am really enjoying both Phillip and your videos. Most of my academic experiences are related to Social work and critical analysis based in sociology, so that is definitely the lens I bring. I really appreciate the literary analysis of the books as it offers a very different perspective to my own insights and helps to build on them!
What impacted me the most was Duiker’s death, although we were left with hope
I especially liked that last scene with Mappo and Icarium, finding out Mappo had used his last healing potions to heal those dogs, and then Icaroum saying he’d love to hear that story
The end of the Chain of Dogs storyline at Aren was amazing. I certainly hope that priest that set up the betrayal gets what’s coming to him at some point later in the series.
Also really liked that sequence with Kalam at the end, taking out those assassins in Malaz City. Classic fantasy stuff to balance out the more military-type story.
The other scene that sticks in my mind is in the beginning with Fiddler almost nonchalantly takes out the soletaken sea monster with a cusser. I love that scene, reminds me of Indiana Jones vs the swordsman in Raiders.
Great book, and I enjoy these dicsussions
Just finished the book for 1st time. Amazing book and I can’t wait to get into Memories of Ice. The Duiker in the tunnels was tough for me to read. I am extremely claustrophobic and was literally having a panic attack that whole scene. Just brilliant.
Hi Carlo, I completely understand that feeling being more than a touch claustrophobic myself. It was a very atmospheric section for me.
I am really glad that you enjoyed the book. I hope that you enjoy Memories of Ice too.
Thanks for watching.
@@ACriticalDragon no problem. Great stuff, subscribed.
Hey Phillip and AP,
There's actually a passage in the book where Iskaral reveals he knows that he speaks what he leads people to believe is his internal monologue aloud on purpose and that he's not being ineptly devious but is being cunningly devious:
'“The blathering of secrets,” the High Priest of Shadow uttered in a wholly different voice, “so they judge me ineffectual.”
The others spun to face him.
Iskaral Pust offered a beatific smile.'
This is very reminiscent of how Kruppe speaks to Rallick in a totally normal and serious voice at the end of Gardens of the Moon. the mask drops for just one brief moment for each character.
And yet he says that in their earshot... So was that inept?
It is like inception levels of deceit. :)
And I would add, that similar to Kruppe, Iskaral Pust acts as a reliable narrator ... if the reader pays close attention to his language ;)
funny someone came back to comment here. just changed my Twitter handle to Iskaral Kruppe Enthusiast
Yay! You both said "Du-icker". That's the only pronunciation that makes sense to me. You also mentioned that we are fortunate to have "witnessed" this story. Erikson planted that seed with Karsa Orlong. We, the reader bear witness to epic events and the little things that make us care about so many characters.
I also just realised that Kellanved was a powerful mage and Cotilion an uber assassin. Quick Ben is more powerful than Kellanved before he ascended. Kallam is the best assassin of his generation. How long would it take for them to take down Rallick Nom? History repeating?
Hi Andrew,
I am glad that you enjoyed the video. As for Erikson planting the seed of witnessing, because Deadhouse Gates occurs before the element you mention, I would argue that this is where Erikson plants that seed. He has two separate historians act as witnesses to show the reader what is happening. And that theme is then taken up through the rest of the series and becomes synonymous with Karsa, but becomes a prevalent theme throughout the series via multiple moments and characters as you point out.
Your points about Quick and Kalam are also really interesting, and it is a great parallel that the same 'team' or duo emerges so we can read it as this echo or parallel with Kellanved and Dancer, so it poses intersting thoughts for the future of the world.
@@ACriticalDragon True, Duiker in particular felt compelled to witness the Chain of Dogs.
Another recurring theme is that of 'rebirth'. Sometimes literally, or by Ascending, but mostly it's the ordinary characters journey to new understanding. Consider how many characters change their names to reflect this? Then there are the Malazans, most of whom seem to have been named by Braven Tooth.
This was so awesome. Thank you.
You are so welcome, I am glad that you enjoyed it. Philip and I plan on doing a lot more of these.
Wonderful, engaging discussion you two. Thank you for doing this read along with Phillip, A.P; beyond stimulating insights, you give the listener the tools to do the same.
Thank you as well for your words on Felisin. If I may, I’d like to add to the discussion and why I find her to be one of the most compelling characters I’ve ever read.
On a personal level, I read this book for the first time when I was in a very dark period in my life and I deeply connected with her. Finding a character going through similar mental struggles meant a lot; helped me recognize the own pitfalls I was in and helped me process these difficult and tangled emotions. Nothing in the series is more heartbreaking than her story for me, but oddly, incredibly moving and heartwarming come the end with you know who...
On a literary level, I really appreciate the way Erikson challenges the classic “Damsel in distress” trope. You are invited to empathize with these characters because they are vulnerable and in a bad external position, but the empathy is hollow, because internally, they remain pure, innocent, and all too easy to love. The struggle is all external. Felisin flips that on its head. What happens when a character you are initially invited to feel sympathy for, begins to strain that sympathy with increasingly toxic and bitter behavior, and how far do you extend the olive branch? The exploration of the internal struggle of the character is immensely more engaging. The way this thematically primes the audience for the series is great.
I find the exploration of the complex, broken psychology of this character so compelling in its depth and compassionate regard: Insecurities from childhood upbringing, inferiority complex, the way she raises her hackles to defend herself, tends the fire of anger and pain in her heart to keep herself going, the loss of self worth and self love due to her sisters betrayal -whom she’s tied her self value to- (and people wonder why she has a hard time trusting others). The way she compartmentalizes, dissociates, disconnects, retreats her mind as the only psychological way to siege the trauma, the drug addiction, the Stockholm Syndrome with her abusive, codependent relationship with Beneth, the spiral into self-destruction. The layers of her character: you know deep down she is very sensitive, compassionate and empathetic, and we see how this hurts her more and turns her into a tangled mess. The way we see her slowly, subtly heal across HoC, before the carpet is pulled from under us... and the way Erikson oh so deftly weaves this thread into the story and character of Tavore; the culmination of which is legit one of the most powerful moments of my life.
Thank you for listening, I am privileged and honored to take part in such a provoking discussion on these incredible books, have a good day.
Thanks for watching, and thank you so much for the exceptional comment. That is fantastic insight and analysis, and is a wonderful articulation of the complexity of Felisin, and you describe so much of why her storyline impacts me so strongly. Thank you.
Love the doggy guest Philip at around 30mins in
..
Invaded by a hound of shadow or a Wickan cattle dog? :)
@@ACriticalDragon Pretty sure it was Bent! Lol
@@SJ-GodofGnomes21 Ha ha! That was Belladonna (named after Bilbo's mother), but she does a great Bent impression!
If Laseen withstood Kalam then how did she withstood Mallick Rel ?
Great Video!
I am very glad that you enjoyed it.
One thing that fascinates me, but is never made that explicit by Erikson, is this: just before the reawakening of Sha'ik, when Apsalar and Felisin are still stumbling through the desert, there is a throwaway musing by Crokus that Cotillion (and Shadowthrone) could take control of the Apocalypse through Apsalar and plunge the entire world into chaos. And the only reason that does not happen is because of a single decision of mercy made by Tavore by not murdering her sister but sending her away. The entire future of the world rests on single decisions of compassion made by individuals, with enormous consequences.
Hi, thanks for watching. That is an excellent point and is one of the very things that places Tavore at the centre of the narrative once the entire series is complete and you re-evaluate the narrative with that retrospective contemplation. Plus, as you say, it is a consequence of a compassionate act, something that goes to the heart of the themes of the MBotF. SO we have this wonderful combination of action/act and theme meeting in convergence. :)
Let the rambling begin....
I do agree Squint was more emotionally draining. While the crucifixion of Coltaine was tragic, it had been done before in a very Spartacus sort of way. The enormous murder (hmmm...) of crows was beautiful. But the agony of Squint is what hit me. It was unexpected and again it is showing the aftermath and consequences. The final scene at the end of MoI actually hit me harder than the actual Fall when it all came rushing back in just a few lines.
Another scene not mentioned is the Red Crossing. It wasn't a tear jerker but I was in shock when the refugees go berserk. That just doesn't happen in books. Again, the extremes people can be driven to and then just breaking. And it caused me to stay up too late to finish the arc.
I think the issue with Felesin is that there is almost too much. Another reviewer was tired of her continual 'navel gazing'. I can understand this opinion and there are times I think to myself 'I get it already move on' at such times.
On my reread I did notice she is the author of a few epigraphs of GotM. Rereading them, while I do like them, they do seem out of character.
Laseen is an enigma. Is she smart, is she too smart for her own good or is she just ruthless and incompetent? A little of all I think but at least you are granted some insight on her motivations.
Friends of mine just read this and for them, they were invested in some of it but the whole path of hands was a little too bonkers for them.
They also questioned why the army marched out of Aren and essentially committed suicide. This is also an example of the dangers of blind loyalty. And some Dune vibes of being wary of charismatic leaders which is even more pronounced in MoI.
Great points, thank you so much. I keep coming back to the fact that we all have different reactions to the various storylines, and for me it worked. But it felt different on the reread, and I really appreciated it far more.
Thankfully there is so much in the book that I think most readers will have favourite storylines.
Every time I hear you guys talk about Malazan, I feel like I'm looking at one of those hidden 3-D posters in a college dorm room and I'm the only one who can't see what it's supposed to be.
I am very sorry you feel that way, that is certainly not the response Philip and I are trying to create. We are trying to be as open and as transparent as possible about our reactions to the text and why the text has created those responses in us.
Are we not giving enough context or textual examples? Is there something more that we could do that would make this feel less like a puzzle that you are not being let in on?
@@ACriticalDragon No, you guys are doing a great job. It's just the way my brain processes the information.
It's a bit like having a joke explained - you can understand it intellectually but that won't necessarily make it funny. I enjoy your discussions though. It's gives me something to aspire to.
I'm going to do a reread of DG before moving on to MOI. I'm hoping that eventually I'll be able to enjoy these books as intended on the first pass.
Well I sincerely hope that the book gels with you on the next read, and if any of these videos and discussions help, all the better.
@@ACriticalDragon Update: I've finished reading DG for the THIRD time and can announce that I finally get it. All of the pieces whirled together into one picture and it's freaking great from start to finish. I realize now I was being both obtuse and obnoxious before. You (and Philip) were a huge help in getting me to think about the text in a better way. So, thanks to you (both) for that and for putting up with me when I was being, charitably, on the whiny side.
On to Memories of Ice next month.
this discussion is amazing but I feel like during the discussion about Lasseen at the end you guys are partially relying on knowledge that is past book 2.
I've read up halfway through Memories of Ice and I've still not been convinced that Lasseen isn't lying to Kalam at that point in yhe series. for example, in Gardens, Lorn, who presumably is acting on the Empress' orders seems to be going after Whiskeyjack and the Bridgeburners when she plants the Finnest where the squad will be on duty.
I always read that as her trying to take out everyone at the Fete at once including the Bridgeburners.... which presumably she wouldn't do without an indication from the Empress that the squad needs to be taken out.
anyway, some great insight about Coltaine's Ascendency and "sleight of hand". thanks for doing these talks!
I take your point, but I can honestly say that I was only relying on GotM (and Dujek's points at the end) and the events of this book. No other influences.
But Erikson always leaves space for individual interpretation and appreciation, so I think that this is probably me taking Laseen at her word and you doubt her more.
Room for both approaches.
so is there a non spoiler past book 2 answer for why Lorn seems to think Whiskeyjack needs to go down while she is serving as the Adjunct, "an extension of the Empress' will"?
she even says to Tayschrenn earlier in Gardens that everyone in the old guard (which means WJ) except Dujek does need to go.
Plans change. Lorn had been on that mission for a while, and the threat of the Pannion Domin, as well as the threat of the Whirlwind continued to build whilst she was 'on mission', and Laseen is nothing if not pragmatic, and is not wedded to any particularly rigid ideology. So Laseen can change her mind. She wanted rid of the Old Guard to consolidate her power, but she might just settle for 99% of them gone.
We also know she had a history with Whiskeyjack from the prologue of GotM, so there could be a personal motivation there.
Plus, Dujek hints that he has spoken to Laseen.
Also, Pale was a disaster in terms of the outcome due to Tayschrenn's handling of the situation.
Lorn, on the other hand, was singularly focused and not necessarily as flexible as Laseen when it came to changing situations.
So, ultimately, based on what we know in GotM and DG, I think there is enough there to show that laseen has given up trying to get rid of the Old Guard as enough of them have gone. One squad left behind is not a threat to her throne, and she has bigger fish to fry. That isn't to say that if the threats to the Empire were immediately resolved that she wouldn't try to finish the job, but I think that she made the calculation that she has other priorities right now and easier way to handle them than an outright conflict that would take time, resources, and energy that she could expend elsewhere to greater effect.
Kalam wiped out a lot of Claw that night, so that tool will have to be rebuilt. So she has a finite amount of resources and time, and has to deploy them for greatest effect.
Or, at least, that is what I get from the various exchanges. I could be completely wrong.
Re-reading DG for first time in….phew….12 years?? And holy crap. This part of the story feels like a runaway horse Erickson was barely holding onto. It just told itself.
I didn’t like it much the first time. I love it this time.
Gotta love a Sapper!
Something really cool/tragic I remember from a video another UA-cam posted about Felison is how compassionate she is early on in her choices (outside of her sister), and how her two male companions just see her as a someone who likes being abused rather then an abused victim. The person I dislike the most by far in this book and future books is Hebraic, but I can’t blame him.
Spoilers for book 4
I remember a part where felison is finally free of the world winds influence, and is questioning everything that is happening, and the person that helped her get out of this state just is like ooops that can’t do go back to being under the influence. The world wind becomes her derhang after a while, and no one has the experience to reach out and help her. By the time she is free to make her own choices she gets killed by her own sister
That is a great point about Felisin, and I am planning a series of videos focusing on various characters as Philip and I go through the series, and Felisin is certainly one of them. We tried to keep the discussion to just the books we have covered on the re-read for those reading along.
I hope that you enjoy some of the other videos on here.
AP, I feel the exact opposite about Kruppe and Pust. Iskaral Pust is a top 5 character for me.
Clearly one of us is wrong... Although I am getting the sense that it is me. 😛
Pust is a fascinating character... I just want to ring his neck.
@@ACriticalDragon That's just his own particular charm. 😁
I got annoyed with Iskaral Pust, his constant babbling but revealing secrets was amusing...but overdone.
I thought that of all the many, many deaths in the book, the saddest were Kulp’s and Duiker’s. Kulp got them safely through warrens of storms and fire, only to get killed by thousands of rats. Duiker made it finally to Aren, only to get betrayed and have one of the saddest and most horrible deaths - no mercy arrow from the sky like for Coltaine, just slow agonizing death.
I enjoyed Gardens of the Moon, but to be honest Deadhouse Gates was a bit too depressing for me. It was well written though.
I can understand why some people find it too much.
I loved the poignancy and the depths of that emotional journey, but it is a personal preference.
No way CD, those tunnels are more like what you saw in that Peaky Blinder's show during the WW1 Flashbacks.
I haven't seen Peaky Blinders.
Philip talked about Chains, but neglected two of the most obvious: Dragnipur and the folks chained to the wagon in the sword. Given what Ganoes did there in GoTM, his aversion to chaining is especially important, especially given the role he will come to play. The other is even more obvious, since one of the books is named House of Chains.
On Laseen, it’s never quite clear to me how much of what she is doing is the result of deep planning, and how much is simply trying to make the best of opportunities as they unfold. It seems clear that her instinct is to eliminate all threats to her power, and especially those that were tied to Kellanved. So I’m not sure I buy her line that it’s for the good of the Empire. It’s very convenient that everything for the good of the Empire is also aimed at consolidating her power. She knows enough not to make a Louis XIV pronouncement (L’etat, c’est moi). But there isn’t a lot in what she does to make me think that she thinks otherwise. And I believe she uses her arguments because she thinks they will work to her advantage.
Thanks for watching. And you are absolutely right about chains becoming a constant motif and symbol throughout the series, and that started back in GotM.
As to Laseen, I don't think that she is selfless and thinking of the empire, rather I think that she is pragmatic and is doing the expedient thing to take care of the more pressing threats to the empire and therefore the more pressing threats to her power. So I think you are right in that she thinks it is to her advantage, but in this case, her interests and the interests of the empire may align.
The idea of laseen vs kalam being a great battle was not there in the first read. After crimson guard and witnessing laseens skill. Well wow! We should have known with creating the claw. But. Main ten never show us it. Was a highlight of crimson guard for me. Laseen. Surely dancer could beat her? Bet it was close before he ascended.
We might not have gotten the fight in Deadhouse Gates, but the entire sequence was building up to it, and then Erikson pulls the rug out from under us.
I hope you enjoyed the video.
I am really looking forward to discussing the Novels of the Malazan Empire with Philip Chase and Esslemont.
That was amazing
I am very glad that you enjoyed it.
Another thing this book does is reveal how unreliable people's idea of the past is. Your made to believe for a while that Kellenved was the better ruler coz the characters you follow all had more power under him as them being a part of the old guard. They look at that time as a solution to their issues but when Kalam realises how wrong he is for thinking that killing Laseen will solve his or the empires issues, it shows that our past can betray our view of the present. This is also seen with the rebels in the seven cities as they hate their oppression by the Malazan empire and look to the past where they were free and crave it. But in this craving they commit atrocities and are now in a stage where they are only unified through a reglious prophet, the later books will come to show how this plays out but I can't imagine the lives of the people in the seven cities getting any better especially with tavore showing up. Also you get the sense that Kellenved was no better than Laseen with his need for personal revenge above the actual needs of the empire. He also seems creepy from many of the conversations we read.
Excellent point Jamie. The unreliability of the accounts, of people's memories, of the 'facts' as we are given them is an ongoing technique utilised by both Erikson and Esslemont. And it is a big aspect of one of my planned videos on Memories of Ice. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Coltains death with be with me for a long time.
It is a massively powerful scene, and it was certainly one of the most haunting on my first read of the series.
Deadhouse Gates hurt...
Good job making a brutal book seem so fun 😅
It is a touch difficult to make lines like 'Children are dying' into a fun video. But we tried. 😂
I love the discussions you hold on this series, but I find myself disagreeing with you, when you discuss ‘soldiers, military, and orders’. I am an officer in the US Air Force. While orders are important, we do not expect anyone to blindly follow those orders. I can give you countless examples of ‘soldiers’ questioning a decision by their leadership, and even providing a better alternative.
Enlisted and Officers work as a team. A leader who doesn’t listen to the people under his/her command is a foolish leader. The enlisted provide a wealth of detailed experience, specifically to their ‘crafts’ or job skills. Each sees the field differently, the officer sees a broader scope and vision of what their commander is trying to achieve. The enlisted see the small details that may stand in the way of that broad vision. Both work together to achieve the mission.
Times have changed for our military, our goal is to have a cohesive relationship that draws on the strengthens of each Branch, in efforts to create a synergistic effect. 40 years ago we were much more compartmentalized, and closer to what you discuss in your dialog.
I would go as far as to say a military is most effective and efficient when it is equipped and trained, and each soldier is allowed to think for themselves, as a team and not as group.
In today’s military we have built a culture that allows me to question or even respectfully challenge a decision or direction of my commander. At the end of the day, once a voice my opinion, the Commander still makes the call. As long as the decision (order) is legal, lawful, and ethical I can execute that decision to the best of my ability.
It is no different in any other corporation, at the end of the day you do what you boss tells you. This establishes stability and order.
Thanks for your comments. As I freely admit, I have no military experience, so I defer to you in that regard. Thanks for watching.
@@ACriticalDragon I really love your Malazan content! Great insights and perspectives 👌