I think that without the Endsinger, then the next major threat that would have fallen on the star is when Omega and its people fell on the Dragonstar. When Midgardsormr arrived with his brood, that would have been a warning to the people that there was something out there, something that would likely have followed in Midgardsormr's wake. The Ancients would have handily dealt with Omega, I believe, but they weren't, generally, a warlike people from what we've seen. There would have been a lot of confusion and consternation in the build up and when the inevitable invasion arrived. So, get on that AU there Squeenix :)
Honestly, it's unclear if Midgardsomr would have even arrived at Etheirys had the Endsong not culled life from other worlds. After all, he only travelled so far to Etheirys because the life on all other worlds were snuffed out. If he had, I think Omega would have not been a serious threat, but would kickstart a lot of debate about philosophy (similar to Hermes' question), celestial research, and invasion preparation. However, I think there is something to be said that Pandaemonium's events were occuring at the same time. The High Seraph's origins and influence is not well understood even now, and it's possible that similarly talented people could cause world-ending levels of damage with or without a corrupting influence like that.
@@ICountFrom0 I don't think they would have lost to Omega, and Omega lost its ability to transmit back home a long, long time ago. It's probable that the Omicrons wouldn't arrive for centuries, if not millennia, giving Etheirys plenty of time to prepare.
I'd say there are so many ways ancient society could have gone if it continued to exist that the possibilities are near-endless, except on one point. Regardless of how well they've done for themselves and the star, it would all end one day. Be it in fire, or in silence. It was the crux of Endwalker's narrative to ask "why go on when you, your loved ones, and everything you have worked towards will disappear into the cold embrace of an uncaring universe?". The people of today found their answer and chose to continue forward in spite of the hopelessness. Could the Ancients have found that same strength? Who can say for certain, but the narrative suggests that they wouldn't. As evidenced by the Ea, the Omnicron, and the Nibirun, those who are closest to perfection are more susceptible to existential despair. Imperfect as mortal existence is, the fact that happiness and sorrow come in equal measure means that we hold on to what joy we can find, and that keeps us going. Unlike the Ancients, who were practically drunk on happiness, and wouldn't settle for less, even if it meant feeding Zodiark more sacrifices. When confronted with true despair, it nearly broke them. It does make me think of how Emet-Selch used his people's willingness to sacrifice themselves for the good of the star as proof their superiority. Despite his claims, I wonder if a reason so many volunteered to be sacrificed to birth Zodiark wasn't just because of their selflessness, but that they fell to despair over the loss of their paradise and found it easier to just let go than to continue existing.
Omega was a LOT more dangerous than you are giving it credit for. This thing had the same powers as the ancients and it could use them on a global scale. Omega is also tactically clever. Our interactions with it were just it trying to create a singular opponent to fight and use to evolve. We have no idea how Omega would react to an entire civilization. It may have just burrowed into the planet and used it's vast aether to create an army. It may have created a situation similar to the final days. Also remember Pandemonium was down there. How would Omega evolve if it got a hold of the creatures there Or unleashed them on the planet? How would Athena's research change with knowledge of Omegas assimilation abilities? How would Omega react to the opportunity to study a god? There is a LOT that could have happened. Don't forget, Ultima the High Seraph is confirmed to be on the planet at that time. She is also an unknown variable. Omega could have been like a match to a powder keg that caused the whole planet to devolve into war.
Always wondered how the conversation with Venat really went "Btw... the empire will develop a gas that will kill me and most heroes, you HAVE to let me die, trust me, the catboy will then travel to the past/alternate timeline and prevent that from happening in another timeline in which, I guess another you won't even have to worry about me dying anymore"
In that case, the WoL we play may not have been the one in the farthest past, but someone else, because this conversation has to have happened in some way or another for Venat to actually be able to prepare for the Final Days and become Hydaelyn/Sunder the world in the first place, and our WoL wouldn't be able to go to the past because of their death in the 8th Umbral Calamity. On another note, I want to see a FFXIV spinoff to see more of that other timeline tho tbh, since at one point all the things up to EW will happen, but with vastly different characters and ways they would have gone. Like, there is a big chance the Azem from that era would've already been born by the time G'raha is woken up by the new Garlond Ironworks, and all the other major characters that didn't die during that Catastrophe would have made history even more different than you'd think(aka Zenos has no more friends 💀). Seeing their story in an old yet new environment would be really cool. (EDIT: Hell, could have a WoL from a reflection be the focus in there if we learn at least one of them has learned how to travel between them in DT like a lot of people theorized).
I assumed we just relayed the plot points of the MSQ to her, which means she knows she has to let you die to Black Rose if time travel hasn't been invented, no trust necessary. Same as she knew she had to give the Warriors of Darkness crystals knowing what it would mean for their world. And she had to let the Ascians go knowing what it would mean for seven shards worth of people. I couldn't have done it. I would have attempted to change the course of history. But given it's a closed loop, it only works BECAUSE she's the one who received that information. Anyone else would have gone with a different plan. We're basically relaying her own plan back to her.
Athena was basically a virus infecting the ancients similar to tempering them, and Lahabrea infected half would have eventually brought her back by sacrificing their son if it wasnt for the player intervention, before the ancients would noticed about this,it would have been too late, Athena would have already infected most ancients thru her agents
@@jaesaces Azem may not have even been there part of that person.s task was to travel The character was not there when we first arrived. Emett and the others took us as his /her familiar.One thing about Athena was what she held the heart of Sabek . we(the player character) had already fought against and won a battle against some else who also sought it;s power. WE become the odd piece on the chess board .
@@ruthnovena40 What I mean is that Azem fortold our arrival to help Elidibus with Pandaemonium. Had the Final Days not occurred, presumably we would not exist and Azem would have helped in some other way instead.
@@jaesaces That's not even mentioning that if Azem REALLY needed more muscle, he could've just called Venat or notify the rest of the Convocation, and Athena would've been turned into a puddle of goo on the floor, no way would she have survived a 15-on-1.
I think your proposed theory of "They would give themselves to the star" IS how they would end up like the Nibirun. Not exactly, not a one to one match, but self selecting that they would die. I think Metion saw the ancients in them, and that's why they horrified her. She had fed on Hermes hang ups with with death for who knows how long, only to have that mixed with a race of people just like the ancients, all committing suicide. Sure the Nibirun were largely devoid of culture, but you can draw that line between turning yourself into a butterfly only to fade, and giving yourself to the star, and letting it spit you out as another animal only to die. I think it's telling that one of the first things we do when we reach Elpis is take butterflies and turn them into something else.
I would LOVE to see a world in which Midgardsormr arrived to an unsundered Etheirys. Midgardsormr would confirm other life in the universe, with new threats. Also I just want to imagine Themis having a casual, amicable chat with the Lord of Wyrms as the star's emissary and voice instead of Hydaelyn it would be adorable.
An interesting idea i had is that the ancients might have left eitheris to start over again on another star. After all it was mentioned in passing that they had done it before and that they weren't originally from eitheris, but had sought out a new world and named the star eitheris due to how unusually rich the star was in aether. Which raises additional questions about where the ancients came from, what happened to their homeworld, and if there are still ancients alive on another star. (Or rather if there were any before the final days happened. I doubt any survived afterward.)
There is some precedent for the last assertion in the video; just look at the most recent set of raids. That’s very close to what happened at the final boss and the cutscene after. Instead of actively guiding the life of Eitherys, they’d just become one with it and lend their strength when possible and when direly needed. Not unlike how the Aedra do in the TES series with Mundus.
The Omicron Invasion on Ethyries would of been Like the Garlemald invasion into Eorzea but x10,000 more intense from both sides. Legit High Fantasy Vs Sci Fi
As for Midgardsormmr, it depends on who fills the seats in the convocation. Assuming it's the members we know, it might go well with Azem, Elidibus, and even Emet-Selch agreeing to harbor his brood. That turns the omicrons into the new big bad. They stopped their progress because there was no one left to fight. Probably after Ethyris was sundered and therefore lost a lot of power, being deemed an unworthy foe by the omicrons
great video! the thing that probably struck me most about ancient society was how they feel about their families. in the pandemonium raid, themis mentioned how odd it was that ericthonios felt so much resentment towards his father lahabrea. themis said that he, like most other ancients just felt the normal amount of “gratitude” towards his parents. like, not love. just… gratitude for bringing him into the world. and to have any other stronger emotion was odd. makes me wonder, were the ancients truly as happy with life as we were led to believe? or were they conditioned from a young age that the pursuit of perfection for the star was more important than themselves, and suppressed a lot of their emotions because of it? lahabrea quite literally tore himself away from his emotions to do his job better, and it fucked up his son. he is definitely an extreme case, but I wonder how widespread self-sacrifice for duty like that was across the ancients, and what effects it may have had on people. makes me think that maybe ancient society was a lot less stable than we were shown.
I think Athena would have become a threat again eventually once the opportunity arose. I'm sure they would have taken in Middy as he was seeking refruge but at the same time I think without Meteon the Omicron wouldn't have stopped their war and would have eventually followed Omega's signal to their next destination. And who knows how many other threats out in the universe could have existed that ended because of Meteon?
Excellent video. I'm always torn between wishing the Final Days had never happened and acknowledging that there were inconsistencies in their society that may have become glaring issues eventually. It seemed all the worlds we encountered in The Dead Ends had achieved perfection and spiraled from there when they had nothing else to strive for. Not saying that ancient society couldn't have kept their world the way it was, but you can't discount their willingness to slay 3/4 of the population to make the world exactly as it had been before. Not acknowledging death as a force beyond their control, but as their enemy - unless they were doing it willingly. It's very noble that they were willing to give so much, and I'm not even convinced they were wrong in trying to bring their people back after the sacrifices. But it ties into the Hermes dilemma, that final intended sacrifice before the sundering, that the ancients didn't truly value lives that weren't their own. Emet-Selch calls it a "Utopia", and it was. The references to the book of the same name are there in The Tempest, Hythlodaeus is a reference, we're obviously being told that the ancient world was indeed a utopia, especially in Emet-Selch's recollection and recreation. They had their world and how they interacted with it down to a science. As far as Hermes goes, I'm an absolute Emet-Selch simp, but the way he treated Hermes when he had reservations about the current Fandaniel stepping down was shitty, even going so far as to manipulate him by implying that Hermes didn't think that Fandaniel had earned his rest when it had nothing to do with that. It was the loss of someone dear to him that gave him pause. Hermes was relatable bc he was depressed and compassionate, but a second Hermes coming along seems unlikely. (Mostly) unchecked power, existential dread, existential curiosity, and obviously how conflicted he was between his own view that all life was valuable and his duty to the star. They couldn't coexist in his eyes. It eventually gave way to nihilism that followed him in his incarnations, even if he couldn't remember why. If all lives didn't have meaning, no lives had meaning.
I know what you mean! On one hand, we get to experience this world and all the people in it because of the Final Days. Which doesn't seem so bad. But on the other hand. The Final Days caused the death of untold trillions and perpetuated cosmic suffering for more than 12,000 years. Which any rational person would say is a very terrible thing. haha
@@SynodicScribe Yeaahhh, I hope I didn't come across as "I'm glad the final days happened" or as if I condone it, bc I don't. At all. I actually have a whole spiel about how terrible The Final Days actually were, which is part of what made the sundering so heartbreaking, but for the purposes of this video and comments section, decided it didn't need to be included in my already novella-length comments lol. Imagine being the three that made it out alive and after trying everything to save your world and the people you love, it's all lost to ruin anyway. Then Emet-Selch having to live with seeing nothing but fragmented ghosts of his people for ages. Lahabrea went insane, Elidibus probably would have if he had any sort of memory. Personally, I'd like to think that the ancients would have never followed the paths the other worlds took, but I guess we'll never know.
I agree with self termination. The Ancients will either be so bored to literal death, or they'd be purposeless so they become one with the Star. Or maybe an alien thing wipes them out lmao. Or they'll become a cosmic invader that wants all planets to be perfect paradises like the Iscandarians.
When you first arrive in Ultma Thule Meteion bird basically talks about how souls, when an entire planet die still join a larger flow. Followed by that information you have Emet's "The civilizations in the shards would surprise you." I think that when Venat realized what was happening she channeled all the souls to the shards, and those entities still exist on those shards.
Meteion didn't plan on doing the final days. She hooked up to the hive mind of her siblings and Succumbed to their overwhelming sorrow and will. #Meteion did nothing wrong
@@SynodicScribe His first mistake was not raising his kids right...Feeding them nothing but candy apples and letting them go anywhere they wanted in the Universe after curfew...of course, the youngest was going to develop a goth phase and take it waaay too far...
I think if Hermes never existed that Venat not wanting to return to the star would suddenly be a point of major contention between the ancients. Having ancients follow in her foot steps and ancients that do want to return to the star could make for a ancient civil war of some kind, maybe not in the logical sense of the term "war" or maybe it would be. Let's say it would be an actual war, that could be an alternate way of making Hydaelyn? Because if ancients are following Venat it could be similar to summoning a primal without the negative effects of being tempered.
When Meteion shared her sisters' report the planets were listed in a numerical order, but does that order also match the order contact was made? Part of me wondered if some planets had weak aether, making them more vulnerable to the flock's growing aura of despair. On topic, though... If Metion was never made, things would have happened differently for sure. Some civilizations would still be wiped out by unstoppable plague or apocalyptic war, but others could have continued on for much longer. The Nibirun may have continued existing in apathy without being reminded of the other emotions and sensations they used to feel. Maybe a dragon would land on their star, shake them out of their apathetic numbness, and bring a bit of joy through song. Back on Etheirys, the Ancients would continue their quest for perfection with a dash of one-upmanship. That minor competitiveness could keep things interesting for a while until all reasonable ideas are exhausted and creations become too weird and dangerous. At that point there may be a bit of a crisis. Should a person return to the star if they can't think of something to contribute? Should they become a steward who only acts when needed? Would there be some kind of migration to bring life to another star, or would that upset the etheric balance with so many souls leaving for good?
Its shown in elpis that the ancient society is flawed, and striving for perfection, that same perfection is why i think Ishikawa said they could become like the DeadEnds 3rd źone people, However, i dont think that would change history that much, because as soon as Venat would have seen them "unaliving themselves" as shown in the dead ends dungeon, she would have sundered the world yet again, even without meteion
The ancients were already apathetic. Because they had all their needs taken care of via the convocation they were like children. 2nd i think a world ending threat would of happened because in Venat's side story it says Azem sometimes had to fight hiant monsters mistakenly conjurred by children
If Meteon is now singing a song of hope, does that mean planets she may have halted previously can start anew? Could that be something we're going to explore in DT's Cosmic Exploration?
We wouldn't need to visit Elpis to find clues or truth about dynamisk. We would not be able to confront Athena in Pandemonium and Ultima through Athena would take over the will of the star to create Ultima's vision of the world. But also, the star wouldn't be sundered and Zodiark wouldn't be summoned. So we would play as our Azem self.
Going to harp in about Hermes a bit and what I consider to be. his mistakes. As a disclaimer, I loved his character and am not faulting his writing and DEFINITELY not his superb voice acting. Hermes' issues with the world can be placed under the umbrella of isolation and depression, a topic that I and many others have experience with. Hermes was a very fringe case, because of these particular faults and/or decisions he made: 1.) He isolated himself from others. Hermes did not confide in others about his feelings at all, just assuming that they were all simply fine with the status quo, despite there being evidence in Elpis to the contrary. He also did not confide in Azem, their followers, or anyone else that could offer counsel. 2.) Hermes would not accept Fandaniel's decision to return to the Star. Of course, this is understandable; death sucks and seeing someone you care about die is a very scarring experience. However, Fandaniel made the decision to pass on of their own volition. It is what they wanted and Hermes did not seem to accept this. 3.) Hermes made Meteion without any peer review, because he wanted to stay isolated. A being that operates off and channels a force of energy that you have little understanding of? Sounds dangerous. Sounds like something you should be VERY careful with. Something that would benefit from the help of others. After all, how many researchers would've jumped at the chance to assist Hermes if they knew what he was working on? A lot, most likely. 4.) Hermes did not consider the possibility that he could make changes as Fandaniel. I do not know if there are any dialogues that state differently, but it seems that Hermes did not even consider the idea that he could make reforms when he took the office. Thing is, he probably could've done so; when Hades sees Hermes mourning the creation he had to put down, Hades' reaction is to simply say "join the Convocation." Hades had originally gone to Elpis to see if Hermes was fitting for the role. This implies that Hades had made up his mind by this point and decided that Hermes WOULD be suitable for the job. Had Hermes taken up the offer with the intent to make the Star a better place, I genuinely think that he could've done so. Overall, Hermes is a very tragic character; a man who had much potential, but instead sunk deeper into isolation. Had other people noticed sooner, or if he had reached out to others for support thibgs could've been very different. (These are simply my opinions on the character. Definitely an interesting and surprisingly relatable one. I may have gotten some details wrong, so feel free to correct me.)
Hermes said "Are we all to die in satisfaction?" Well, yeah. Once no further improvements to the planet could be made, the human race would likely have a giant death party where they all return to the star and it would be the most ultimate beautiful. At least to their culture.
It's interesting to think that one of the only events that would not be changed by the absence of the Endsinger is Midgarsormer's and Omega's arrival. I how differently those events would have played out.
The Final Days is so instrumental to the world of FFXIV that it's hard to even speculate how things would have went without it. Like you said, it's possible but unlikely that another Hermes would have been born; between his skill, knowledge, and station it's unlikely someone else like him would cause similarly catastrophic disaster. Whether the societal problems he embodies are addressed in another way or continue to fester are another question. However, I guess it's also worth mentioning that even if it was dealt with, he wasn't even the only talented, high-ranking individual to almost end the world, so... It's also far from certain that even events such as Midgardsomr's arrival would occur, since the lack of the Endsong would mean that Midgardsomr could find life on alternative stars. If he did arrive though, he would likely have to entreat with the Convocation as the representatives for mankind. While formidable, I don't think Omega would pose a threat against the entire population of pre-sundering Etheirys and would potentially even serve as an early warning of conflict to come similar to the Enterprise first meeting the Borg in Star Trek: TNG. Putting that all aside, like you and the developers said, the Nibirun are probably the best indication of what a "perfect" society with an inclination towards self-termination would do.
Heck, I remember that Midgardsormr or Omega, I can’t recall which one probably the former, mentioned that in their travel through the universe they found tons of dead stars.
@@Castersvarog Vritra says that Midgardsomr called Etheirys the "last bastion of hope," and later theorizes that he did so because the life of any other worlds had been snuffed out.
on some degree, mechainc of storytelling take their toll. they needed a throughline for the story to make sense, so everything is structured as a liner series of sequential events because basically thats how jrpgs are written. there are digressions here and there, but its very much a central spine where everything comes from, something that was seen(to my significant irritation) when they revealed that the 12 gods, seemingly unrelated to the story were actually just venats "apostles" everything follows the central thread. to some degree it reminds me of the question of stasis versus change, the state of the ancients world was "perfect" and life stagnates with no external motivation to change. so likely something would have to have changed simply because maintaining stasis is impossible to do eternally, something changes. at the risk of turning into the moon channel, a lot of the underlying philosophy of ffxiv is buddhist, from the aetheric elements to the concept of constant spiritual reincarnation without a specific divinity maintaining it. its dharma basically. so the nature of reality is for even the ancients to change. Finally, i am hoping the existence of dynamis shakes up our understanding of the world a bit, you may have noted that dyanmis actually changed the minds of the simulated immortal guys whose name i forget. they died off and destroyed themselves because of the stasis of the aetheric cosmology but dynamis is kind of a weird particle of "hope and purpose" of change and growth, and i hope to venat that they dont leave it as a one note maguffin, because it has a potential to help with some of the writing dead ends they have with the current world building. even the EA who were similarly depressed by the materialist view of atheric cosmology inevitably ending in a big crunch seemed to regard dynamis as a kind of outer variable that might prevent the eventual contraction of the universe. if they develop that route, ill almost forgive them for making the 12 more @#$%ing ancients.
I could see a different form of the final days happening as long as dynamis exists. One person finds a way to manipulate it and since it can't be sensed it could be treated as a sickness.
Always fan of informed speculation. I suspect if things had continued, dragon-daddy's arrival would have been considered a positive. Aside from acclimating the refugees to a new society, I think the Ancients would have welcomed Midgardsormr. And Tiamat wouldn't be so depressing...
I think the change could be even simpler then to remove Hermes. When he voiced his concerns, he should have been assured that the current Fandaniel was close to getting well, bored and they know from experience that forcing someone to stay is torture in itself. Also they could then have pointed out people like Venat who chose to continue as they themselves felt it suited. But perhaps we miss out on something like that there was a genuine social pressure to end yourself rather then do so out of your own free will.
I think something that's important to keep in mind is that the unsundered world is depicted, frequently throughout the Elpis chapter of the MSQ, as a flawed society that's not quite as utopian as it fashions itself. Its people have seemingly no regard for life apart from their own; even the most good-natured character we meet turns a butterfly into robes without a second thought. And while there may not have been anyone else on Etheirys who would've taken the actions Hermes did, we see that there are other people who are malcontented with their society and who see through the facade of harmony to the problems festering beneath, but who don't feel empowered to say anything. Furthermore it's a society that, just like the failed ones we meet beyond the stars, is devoted utterly to the pursuit of perfection and a world without suffering. It's about avoiding and denying the darkness in the world instead of accepting it and learning to overcome it-in fact their very aetheric makeup prevents them from doing so. The fact that all of these other societies failed is proof of Venat's philosophy: that this is a futile and ultimately doomed endeavor. And without a trigger to steer them off this path (and some way to make them more aware of dynamis), it's reasonable to assume that this pursuit would have ultimately doomed the Ancients as well.
@@lindthechaoticheretic8708 Funny. But I think there is, and is meant to be, a distinction between people who have a tradition of using animal parts for protective clothing (and who insulate themselves from the process), and so-called perfect people who walk up to a creature and snap their fingers with a big smile on their face to transform it into something for pure convenience. This is why the WoL has a dialogue option to react with surprise at it.
@@lindthechaoticheretic8708 Yeah, I loved that people use that to justify their lack of respect for life to my level 90 leatherworker... A way better example is this time one of them wiped out the entirety of her own species and made familiars out of the sundered pieces of their souls so that her familiars could grow strong through thousands of years of unspeakable suffering. But hey, I guess that butterfly thing was bad too.
@@AndyAnonymous The Ancients have bodies. Were they supposed to walk around naked? They can't make something from nothing, they need aether. And while this is supposed to make them look bad because we know we have to justify them being wiped out, it doesn't because the sundered do far, far worse. You act like there is no fashion in the sundered world. There is and tons of it involves leather and feathers.
@@MissKashira Last time I checked most clothing was made from fibers from plants. How would the Ancients get clothing? Obviously they'd weave it from thread, the same way sundered people do. As for leather, yes that does kill an animal, but if you've ever done the LTW quests you'd know there is a message constantly there of being respectful of the animals and only taking what they need. It's a very different thing from snapping a creature out of existence on a whim and acting like it's no different than turning a light switch off, like the Ancients are shown to do. As for "the sundered do far, far worse," [citation needed]
I suppose what could transpire depends on if Midgardsormr still finds Etheirys to be the last bastion of hope. If so, dragonkind comes to a fully aether rich Etheirys several times more dense than the state he finds it in when he enters into his pact with Hydaelyn. This would make The First Brood grow up even stronger than they are in our story. Given then that the dragons are peaceful but touched by war, and that the Ascians are peaceful, but this is their first contact... I suppose we could get a storyline where the Ascians and the Dragons become allies, and then fight against the Omicrons. Assuming that the Omicrons bother to follow Omega to Etheirys. If nothing else, it could inspire Azem to want to travel out beyond the stars, and would then prompt the Ascians to devote concentrated societal effort to understanding outer space and Dynamis, and we might just wind up with an Ascian/Dragon society that wants to improve and perfect the entire universe, under a peaceful banner. Perhaps the Ascians would create spaceships. It would certainly be interesting. Perhaps they could even solve the heat death of the universe after directly encountering the Ea. Thank you for this unexpectedly nice on this topic video. Almost all supposition about the Ascians since Endwalker that I've run into online says that they were wrong and had to die. This open mindedness about the topic is refreshing.
I think as long as Venat is involved in the story, there is still a good chance the final days would have happened. She seemed convinced that the future the WOL comes from was inevitable after she hears about it. She also works to keep Hermes' actions a secret after everyone else's memories are erased. I think even if Hermes had changed sides early on and helped Emet, Venat would have found a way to sabotage them.
Without the endsinger we could have seen the ancients make contact with other worlds after a few centuries and join together to build an intergalatic society or alliance of some kind. How that plays out would be unknown through but interesting idea. Interesting what if idea but what if Hythlodaeus agreed to take the seat of Emet Selch, convinced his friend Azem to support the Zodiark plan and through a weird chain of events Hades is reincarated as the warrior of light during the events of ARR while Hythlodaeus and Azem are part of the ascians.
It would be FF14, Jim, but not as we know it. I dunno, I think the old Ascian peoples would either all shuffle off the mortal coil or start deliberately causing problems out of a need to perfect life, and seeing that Life Needs Strife! At that point they'd just be the villains again, but on purpose
What I wonder is if Meteion had not been launched and the Final Days had not occurred, would the Ancients have been present when Omega arrived on Etheirys as well?
Alright, so I have a take on this here. First, lets presume no emergent dynamis (at first) as the Ancient's lifestyle made that event borderline unique. It would take some sort of great social disruption to potentially shake another Hermes into the right position. However, there are things from beyond the star that Dynamis either didn't effect, or that would have likely happened regardless. First, we have to bring up Athena. All of her basically SCP infectious mental stuff that was leading her to want to become a god is heavily implied, if not outright stated, to be related to Auracite. The reason this comes up first is Auracite means Ultima. Not the spell, not the Primal that disrupted Ivalice fatally, but the original High Seraph. There's not too much I can say on this as I'm still fairly sure Actual Original Ultima is likely to be an upcoming expansion problem, but we have to acknowledge that while Athena herself is probably not a world ending threat (on her own), the source of her mad desires could be. Next, we have Midgardsormr's arrival. This may or may not happen, depending on if the Omicrons still go on their shonen fight everything to improve themselves methodology continues despite a lack of Meteon (there are clues pointing to her seeing that conflict, but not how far along it was when one of her first arrived). If we assume that Meteon caused that, then both Midgardsormr and the next possible incident end here. That's boring, so lets assume that the Omicrons still go about their ways, the dragonstar falls, and Midgardsormr arrives. The dragon that would be father to all broods on Etheirys may or may not end in conflict, as he is a refugee fleeing a foe. But he might be fleeing that foe in a violent manner, so the initial contact may well involve fighting between the ancients and the greatest of dragons. This also leads to Omega, who was in hot pursuit of Midgardsormr. This means that any conflict between Midgardsormr and the Ancients would be short lived at most, either coming to some conclusion before hand, or having Omega stumble into the fight. We can't really say who would win between any one Ancient and either of these alien arrivals, but the Ancients have the numerical advantage... ...until more Omicrons arrive. Without the problems of Dynamis, this means that Omega likely doesn't simply become a lost and stranded scout, but a harbinger of a robot army. Even if Omega themselves falls, this might be the greatest conflict the star would see. Up until the potential emergence of the High Seraph (which could well happen during this conflict, for maximum chaos, before this conflict, nulling some of these points and creating another scenario entirely depending on who wins, or after the conflict, creating a story not unlike FFXIV's normal story, where just when you think you selttled, things, something else pops up. And speaking of something else, we have two more alien arrivals we have to acknowledge, but these likely don't end in conflict if the Ancients survive the previous encounters without major societal upheavals (unlikely, but possible). First, we have the Mandervillians. They did arrive on Etheirys to escape the Final Days, but we could see explorers (rather than refugees) stumble in with comedic timing. And knowing what the eventual adopted family that took up the alien's name as their own family name get up to, this feels highly likely. There probably wouldn't be any violent conflict here, but some of the Ancients are sure to get some major headaches. This also means that the alien race that PuPu belongs to may well also arrive, though again, their arrival was due to the cataclysm caused by the Final Days and Dynamis, so this makes them a wildcard. But if they did arrive, their technology may well prove to still be problematic, even for a society like the Ancients. Anything that could create post-scarcity has some inherent dangers to it. Additionally, we can't avoid things like the Alexandrians. Yes, they are a result of the sundering which is a result of the Final Days, but we know that some amount of cross timeline travel is possible due to what G'raha did with the Crystal Tower to stop the 8th Umbral Calamity. So while it's highly unlikely, ANY force from the sundered worlds of some timeline could find itself stumbling into a timeline where the world was never sundered. While such sundered peoples might not be a direct thereat, their arrival might well bring about some questions that could themselves create threats. And among all these conflicts, primarily with aliens different in form and desire, and some with powers that could make for a threat that would rival that of the Endsinger... that is a situation where someone in a place of power among the ancients might sink into a depressive state, and seeking answers, build a hive of space probes that uses Dynamis to circumvent the speed of light for communication, and ask the exact wrong question to such a hive mind of probes. So we might see, thousands to tens of thousands of years later... the Endsinger rise and wreak havok upon a universe, but not in the way we are familiar with. But that would be once again a slender, almost unique event that could well bring about this same question once more.
Which branch was this? More stuff for Accord to document XD Oh, wrong franchise I think, but we had some denizens from there come say hi and visit so quite interesting if the canon right now is just a branch among many. XD
There’s always a next threat in FF. It always does seem that way. And the star is funnily enough a hot spot for weird things happening be they from another star or another dimension. But had the star not been sundered, we might have had other things to worry about. I’m of the belief that in some way, the universe always finds a way to correct itself, either by providence or the hand of man.
Without the sundering, the nier invasion would have happened on the one unsundered world and the discovery of 2B leggings would have inspired the ancients to discard their formless robes in the pursuit of fashion and glamour
Hermes: I agonize over the moral implications of being able to create and destroy life at a whim and how it pertains to the meaning of life and I am appalled at the apathy of my peers. Athena: Since my creations live and die at my leisure and they are mine to do with as I please, therefore I am a god and any moral implications and life itself are thus meaningless. I love the dichotomy between these two.
I can't remember, was there any discussion of any civilization besides the Omicron and Midgardsormr exploring beyond their home planet? I don't recall if the Ea went to space or if they just deduced the heat death from their home. I could definitely see the Ancients deciding to explore the universe if their civilization made it to that point. That would have at least prolonged their search for new challenges and meaning for a very long time.
Yes. Not only does the Dead Ends dungeons list at least 18 Stars visited by the Meteia, Omega has a documentation list of life sustaining Stars he passed on his travels to the Source, and side quests like the Manderville story have revealed further worlds undocumented in the FFXIV universe.
@@SynodicScribe I was asking about stars that had achieved their own space travel, but I have no idea how I forgot about Pupu and the Mandervillians. I guess I subconsciously silo off that lore even though I know it's canon.
If the final days didn't happen, then my guess is that the High Seraph, Ultima, would have done some baaaad stuff through use of the Heart of Sabik. I have a feeling Azem was aware of her and working on something to do with her before Pandemonium. I think the cutscene with Lahabrea in Praetorium has more to do with resurrecting Ultima, rather than Zodiark as he is basically channelling her desire, with her power. He may think it is for Zodiark in part, but really it seems she was using him and manipulating him with the Heart. Given she was likely sundered with the star all she would want it to be rejoined. Obviously I have no idea, but that's the vibes I get.
While it is certainly possible that the Ancients could have lasted forever, I'm not sure if I agree that Hermes was a one-of-a-kind threat to that stability. If he were simply having a mental breakdown, yeah, a counselor of some kind certainly could have helped him. What bothered Hermes was what he considered a massive flaw in the Ancients' perceived paradise: that in their efforts to create a better world they were instead causing immense suffering on their creations that did not survive the testing process, and perhaps even some that did. There are similar controversial topics on Earth that I will not go into for the sake of the comments section, but there are many people here that feel there are genuine issues in how their society exists, and I am confident that there would be people on Etheirys who are fundamentally unsatisfied with how the Ancients live their lives. Counseling and therapy would do nothing to assuage their concerns, as it is not any kind of issue with their mind that is causing their distress, but the mismatch in how their world is and how they believe it should be. The question, of course, is what is the likelihood that another one of these people could have taken his place, created something like Meteion, and triggered something like The Final Days. And...well...if the Ancients were unobservant enough to let Hermes do his thing, maybe they'd let another one slip by as well. Or they'd catch them in the act, and monitor the situation more closely. So really, who knows? Either way, it is fun to speculate about other possibilities. Thank you for yet another amazing video, Synodic Scribe!
I always had a headcanon that if the final days wouldn't happen, then the ancients would eventually be divided and have civil war. While I agree that there was a minute chance of anyone being in the position Hermes was in, I would argue that there may have been more ancients with the same mindset. One of rebellion and betrayal. With Ancients living for ever basically, overpopulation could become a thing and history teaches us that when empires grow too big, they tend to break apart (just look at rome). I think eventually there would be enough Hermes like thinkers that would split off from the main ancients. Maybe war would ensue.
I know this is a longshot and I often come here both from a FFXI perspective and XIV perspective, but could you do a video after the FFXIV x XI Raid on how both worlds could possibly exist with one another while also explaining why they can't? I'm a HUGE nerd for both games and loved when XIV made several references to an old MMO I used to play
I think it's funny that so many people think that the ancients had no knowledge of mental health when the simpler answer is that Hermes just had a bad therapist.
@@SynodicScribe I believe that Hermes is not so different from Venat. I can totally imagine Venat being just as frustrated and depressed over her books, then throwing her hands in the air and going for a stroll that somehow ended as world wide journey, that gave her answers and turned her into a person we all know. Hermes kept searching for his answers in all the wrong places, and by "luck" it ended in universal extiction event. If he would be able to continue his search, maybe he would've made it - or ended as sorry nihilist Amon or just "returned to the star" as ancients call it, but well, we will never know.
I feel there is a chance they might have encountered the omicrons since they were kind of desperate for a new threat to give them purpose after they beat the dragons and I think a world of unsundered ancients would be strong enough to give them there reason to continue evolving
If Jenova existed in FF14 (or maybe she already exists but she travels in a different demension) and came, the Ancients would freak out and their world would end up becoming like the world in FF7 a world that has become imfested by the terrible decease knows as Jenova... Makes me wonder if the Ancients from FF14 had the same abilities as the Cetran Ancients of FF7 being able to communicate with the planet and through there able to somehow quell Jenova's sickness upon their world?...
Personally, I don't think they would have succumbed to the same fate as what we see in the dungeon - they show enough individuality and enough clashing opinions that such would be very likely unless they started to experiment on themselves. I could see a few other major threats arising from within the Ancients, but the major shake-up would likely be Midgardsormr arriving to Eitherys - at which point I could see them trying to stop the Omicron people from their hostile conquest of the galaxy (after a lot of debate)
So a small thing that I personally noticed. I do not think that the ancients lacked the knowledge of mental health. They just didn't treat it as a serious issue. The mental health of PTSD was not considered a "real" issue until fairly recently, in the 1980's. Before that it was Shell Shock and the mental disorder wasn't taken anywhere near as serious as it is now. Now is there "proof" that Ancients could not handle pressure of extreme levels as PTSD? Yes, Acadaemia Anyder. When people saw the final boss, they didn't question that they could create monsters. What people didn't poke at was the mental state of that "ancient". Shadowbringers makes it very clear, if a shadow ancient acts in a way that goes against their creation they *poof* out of existence fairly quickly. That ancient being in a panicked and overly emotional state did not poof. In fact it's easy to make the argument that since it didn't poof out of existence, Hades knew in his heart that his Brethren cannot handle stressful situations and start to break down mentally. In this case an anonymous ancient sacrificed himself, pre-Zodiark summoning, to summon a monster guardian. That in itself is some evidence that Ancients either hid their mental state or denied it's severity.
That feels like a stretch. They existed for untold thousands of years and debated for fun as a pastime. To suggest they never debated/discussed any of these things at any point feels unfair. That and the Endsinger's song was meant to instill despair, and with their limited understanding of Dynamis it makes sense the Ancient's anxiety wouldn't immediately recover even after the Final Days were averted.
Tbh you're explample is rather weak. Simply because of one thing. Would moden day mages or researchers do anything differently? Tbh no, how do i know? The msq , job quest and side quest. We seem the people of hydaelyn act in panicked desperate and self destructive ways for far less then the ancients. With far more selfish reason. Also you say the ancients lack knowledge on mental health is silly when the video and in game lore proves you wrong. Tbh i find the way the fandom has to strawman the ancients to be weird af. When we see breast tribes and humans do the same thing but wrose.
@@SynodicScribe I wouldn't call it a stretch that the phantom ancient represented the potential mental health issues underlying beneath the ancients that is simply ignored for not being important enough to "heal" They could of simply seen it as a non-issue at that time. An example of taking little information to explain a deeper lore is FNAF whether you like it or not. Those fans took even less informationl and solved lore questions that the creator agreed with more often then not. Also debating in of itself doesn't mean caring about some subjects or some honest talk about the subject. There is already a stigma with debaters in youtube being "Debate Bro" or "Debate Brain" from the way they lack caring of a subject matter at times. Vash is an example of his debate brain causing him to say and defend stupid things that shouldn't be defended. Debating isn't a perfect or all purpose solution solver or introspection of a person.
@@davidpower5710 The word "lack" isn't what I meant specifically. What I meant by lack of information is to point out the mental health of an ancient was not that high of a priority compared to the rest of the world. So if there were others they either buried it or just snapped like that phantom ancient did in Acadaemia Anyder.
@@SynodicScribe A hypothetical if I may on that phantom ancient. Let's say before he fully sacrificed his "life" to Quetzalcoatl we were able to stop time for a moment. Then we were able to take off the mask of that Ancient. What kind of face would that ancient be making? Considering how minor that problem was for the dungeon. By minor I mean the WoL has seen far worse of a mess in the MSQ before even running that dungeon. Did the ancient need to go to such extremes to "fix" Acadaemia Anyder? So back to the subject, what face would that ancient have? To me I could easily guess his face would be in duress. Which would be a clue that something isn't adding up about the perfect society that knew no wrongs.
I still think the Meteion/Endsinger's "super-nihilism" is unnatural; while things being dead and dying is depressing, wanting to mercy-kill the universe is another thing entirely... Endsinger's lines during Phase 2 of the fight imply to me they saw "something" that pushed them over the edge... So perhaps, if the Final Days did not occur, perhaps that eldritch "something" would've been the big problem they'd have to deal with eventually...
I think that "something" was that no matter what, life forms would end up in a miserable existence, even if they were outright immortal, free from war or disease.
That raises the question of "Would the Dragons have even COME to Etherys if there was no Endsinger?" I mean, didn't they come because their homeworld was lost?
The main difference between the Ancients and teh Nibilim and Ea, was that the Ancients didn't make themselves immortal or at least, they were smart enough to include an off-switch.
I'm going to say I DO think that another person like Hermes would have eventually come about. Every society fails some of its people, every society eventually puts people into positions of power and authority who should not hold those offices. And add to that both the immense power the Ancients held and the extreme hubris of that civilization, and I do believe that Hermes was an inevitability. Yes the exact sequence of events and position afforded to him made the specific universe ending threat he created unique, but I will continue to believe that the Ancients were destined to eventually destroy themselves and possible the entire universe along with them based just off how their society was structured combined with the extreme level of power even the most common citizen held. Also a side note about the Niberoon (the people from the Dead Ends) I encourage you to read the lore notes in the dungeon. The tales Meteon tells us about all three worlds in the voiced lines are all wrong. She's an unreliable narrator. The first world didn't die from disease, they died from climate collapse and pollution. On the second world, her appearance to one of the two major factions caused them to believe they were the special and chosen group, emboldening them in their war agains the others. And on the third world, they had no concept of the things they later found themselves to be lacking until Meton arrived and continued questioning them about what gave them meaning and joy, questions they hadn't considered until her arrival. For that world, she was quite literally the catalyst that drove them to self destruction. They may have arrived there eventually on their own, but they weren't at that point prior to her arrival.
No hermes. No amon no fandaniel in that form. Xande wouldnt have been resurrected alag probly wouldnt have happened anyway with the ancients still around unless they all decided to die peacefully
I think the argument of "the Ancients had no idea about mental health" is (perhaps intentionally) misleading. We see a snapshot of their society, and that doesn't mean we're privy to every facet of it. That'd be like an alien species watching a weeks' worth of news broadcasts of fairly banal local events and weather forecasts, and so assuming that humans had no knowledge of physics, philosophy, or the dinosaurs just because those topics never happened to be brought up.
There were plenty of bad ancients, and they were dealt with. The excuse that Hermes' mental health was the cause is just ignoring everything else and focusing on one thing to justify everything. Here's depression led him to betray all of his people and decide that he is justified in judging if people should live or die. The ancient civilisation spanned eons, and they had many challenges of their own, this ultimately led to the civilisation they built. Hermes did whatever he wanted to satisfy his own elvish desires, which broke the rules set for Elpis, which led to the clamity.
FF14 developers are the most based and meta devs ever. FF14 is always called a weeb game and their player base, for the most part, are cringe af. So they made the perfect depiction of the most depressed weeb of them all the final villain and orchestrator of the final days lol!!
I think that without the Endsinger, then the next major threat that would have fallen on the star is when Omega and its people fell on the Dragonstar. When Midgardsormr arrived with his brood, that would have been a warning to the people that there was something out there, something that would likely have followed in Midgardsormr's wake. The Ancients would have handily dealt with Omega, I believe, but they weren't, generally, a warlike people from what we've seen. There would have been a lot of confusion and consternation in the build up and when the inevitable invasion arrived.
So, get on that AU there Squeenix :)
Honestly, it's unclear if Midgardsomr would have even arrived at Etheirys had the Endsong not culled life from other worlds. After all, he only travelled so far to Etheirys because the life on all other worlds were snuffed out. If he had, I think Omega would have not been a serious threat, but would kickstart a lot of debate about philosophy (similar to Hermes' question), celestial research, and invasion preparation.
However, I think there is something to be said that Pandaemonium's events were occuring at the same time. The High Seraph's origins and influence is not well understood even now, and it's possible that similarly talented people could cause world-ending levels of damage with or without a corrupting influence like that.
Slight correction. Clutch, not brood. His children are his clutch and not brood. Brood is a different connotation.
@@ICountFrom0 I don't think they would have lost to Omega, and Omega lost its ability to transmit back home a long, long time ago.
It's probable that the Omicrons wouldn't arrive for centuries, if not millennia, giving Etheirys plenty of time to prepare.
I'd say there are so many ways ancient society could have gone if it continued to exist that the possibilities are near-endless, except on one point. Regardless of how well they've done for themselves and the star, it would all end one day. Be it in fire, or in silence. It was the crux of Endwalker's narrative to ask "why go on when you, your loved ones, and everything you have worked towards will disappear into the cold embrace of an uncaring universe?". The people of today found their answer and chose to continue forward in spite of the hopelessness. Could the Ancients have found that same strength?
Who can say for certain, but the narrative suggests that they wouldn't. As evidenced by the Ea, the Omnicron, and the Nibirun, those who are closest to perfection are more susceptible to existential despair. Imperfect as mortal existence is, the fact that happiness and sorrow come in equal measure means that we hold on to what joy we can find, and that keeps us going. Unlike the Ancients, who were practically drunk on happiness, and wouldn't settle for less, even if it meant feeding Zodiark more sacrifices. When confronted with true despair, it nearly broke them.
It does make me think of how Emet-Selch used his people's willingness to sacrifice themselves for the good of the star as proof their superiority. Despite his claims, I wonder if a reason so many volunteered to be sacrificed to birth Zodiark wasn't just because of their selflessness, but that they fell to despair over the loss of their paradise and found it easier to just let go than to continue existing.
We get an alternative future where the dragons are the protagonists
I’d play that game
That could be an interesting story. The Ancients helping the Dragons reclaim their Star perhaps. haha
@@SynodicScribe
Honestly. I just Miss Midgardsormr. He’s a dragon bro
go finish HW after 5.1
I misread this as "the dragons ATE the protagonists" and I'm still down with it...
@@AthenaPrime
hahaha. Yeah. Me, too.
God I would LOVE to watch Emet Selch completely annihilate Omega while complaining about being forced to do so.
I'd pay to see that. lmao
Omega was a LOT more dangerous than you are giving it credit for. This thing had the same powers as the ancients and it could use them on a global scale. Omega is also tactically clever. Our interactions with it were just it trying to create a singular opponent to fight and use to evolve. We have no idea how Omega would react to an entire civilization. It may have just burrowed into the planet and used it's vast aether to create an army.
It may have created a situation similar to the final days. Also remember Pandemonium was down there. How would Omega evolve if it got a hold of the creatures there Or unleashed them on the planet? How would Athena's research change with knowledge of Omegas assimilation abilities? How would Omega react to the opportunity to study a god? There is a LOT that could have happened.
Don't forget, Ultima the High Seraph is confirmed to be on the planet at that time. She is also an unknown variable. Omega could have been like a match to a powder keg that caused the whole planet to devolve into war.
Always wondered how the conversation with Venat really went "Btw... the empire will develop a gas that will kill me and most heroes, you HAVE to let me die, trust me, the catboy will then travel to the past/alternate timeline and prevent that from happening in another timeline in which, I guess another you won't even have to worry about me dying anymore"
In that case, the WoL we play may not have been the one in the farthest past, but someone else, because this conversation has to have happened in some way or another for Venat to actually be able to prepare for the Final Days and become Hydaelyn/Sunder the world in the first place, and our WoL wouldn't be able to go to the past because of their death in the 8th Umbral Calamity.
On another note, I want to see a FFXIV spinoff to see more of that other timeline tho tbh, since at one point all the things up to EW will happen, but with vastly different characters and ways they would have gone. Like, there is a big chance the Azem from that era would've already been born by the time G'raha is woken up by the new Garlond Ironworks, and all the other major characters that didn't die during that Catastrophe would have made history even more different than you'd think(aka Zenos has no more friends 💀). Seeing their story in an old yet new environment would be really cool.
(EDIT: Hell, could have a WoL from a reflection be the focus in there if we learn at least one of them has learned how to travel between them in DT like a lot of people theorized).
I assumed we just relayed the plot points of the MSQ to her, which means she knows she has to let you die to Black Rose if time travel hasn't been invented, no trust necessary. Same as she knew she had to give the Warriors of Darkness crystals knowing what it would mean for their world. And she had to let the Ascians go knowing what it would mean for seven shards worth of people. I couldn't have done it. I would have attempted to change the course of history. But given it's a closed loop, it only works BECAUSE she's the one who received that information. Anyone else would have gone with a different plan. We're basically relaying her own plan back to her.
Athena was basically a virus infecting the ancients similar to tempering them, and Lahabrea infected half would have eventually brought her back by sacrificing their son if it wasnt for the player intervention, before the ancients would noticed about this,it would have been too late, Athena would have already infected most ancients thru her agents
Without the player's intervention though, Azem would not have predicted your coming and would have probably taken a more active role in intervening.
@@jaesaces Azem may not have even been there part of that person.s task was to travel The character was not there when we first arrived. Emett and the others took us as his /her familiar.One thing about Athena was what she held the heart of Sabek . we(the player character) had already fought against and won a battle against some else who also sought it;s power. WE become the odd piece on the chess board .
@@ruthnovena40 What I mean is that Azem fortold our arrival to help Elidibus with Pandaemonium. Had the Final Days not occurred, presumably we would not exist and Azem would have helped in some other way instead.
@@jaesaces That's not even mentioning that if Azem REALLY needed more muscle, he could've just called Venat or notify the rest of the Convocation, and Athena would've been turned into a puddle of goo on the floor, no way would she have survived a 15-on-1.
I think your proposed theory of "They would give themselves to the star" IS how they would end up like the Nibirun. Not exactly, not a one to one match, but self selecting that they would die. I think Metion saw the ancients in them, and that's why they horrified her. She had fed on Hermes hang ups with with death for who knows how long, only to have that mixed with a race of people just like the ancients, all committing suicide. Sure the Nibirun were largely devoid of culture, but you can draw that line between turning yourself into a butterfly only to fade, and giving yourself to the star, and letting it spit you out as another animal only to die. I think it's telling that one of the first things we do when we reach Elpis is take butterflies and turn them into something else.
I would LOVE to see a world in which Midgardsormr arrived to an unsundered Etheirys. Midgardsormr would confirm other life in the universe, with new threats. Also I just want to imagine Themis having a casual, amicable chat with the Lord of Wyrms as the star's emissary and voice instead of Hydaelyn it would be adorable.
An interesting idea i had is that the ancients might have left eitheris to start over again on another star. After all it was mentioned in passing that they had done it before and that they weren't originally from eitheris, but had sought out a new world and named the star eitheris due to how unusually rich the star was in aether.
Which raises additional questions about where the ancients came from, what happened to their homeworld, and if there are still ancients alive on another star. (Or rather if there were any before the final days happened. I doubt any survived afterward.)
There is some precedent for the last assertion in the video; just look at the most recent set of raids. That’s very close to what happened at the final boss and the cutscene after. Instead of actively guiding the life of Eitherys, they’d just become one with it and lend their strength when possible and when direly needed. Not unlike how the Aedra do in the TES series with Mundus.
The Omicron Invasion on Ethyries would of been Like the Garlemald invasion into Eorzea but x10,000 more intense from both sides. Legit High Fantasy Vs Sci Fi
Chocobo versus robot?
My money is still on the chocobo....
But the omicron do adapt, Chocobo vs Chocobot it’s like Godzilla vs mecha Godzilla
As for Midgardsormmr, it depends on who fills the seats in the convocation. Assuming it's the members we know, it might go well with Azem, Elidibus, and even Emet-Selch agreeing to harbor his brood. That turns the omicrons into the new big bad. They stopped their progress because there was no one left to fight. Probably after Ethyris was sundered and therefore lost a lot of power, being deemed an unworthy foe by the omicrons
great video!
the thing that probably struck me most about ancient society was how they feel about their families. in the pandemonium raid, themis mentioned how odd it was that ericthonios felt so much resentment towards his father lahabrea. themis said that he, like most other ancients just felt the normal amount of “gratitude” towards his parents. like, not love. just… gratitude for bringing him into the world. and to have any other stronger emotion was odd.
makes me wonder, were the ancients truly as happy with life as we were led to believe? or were they conditioned from a young age that the pursuit of perfection for the star was more important than themselves, and suppressed a lot of their emotions because of it?
lahabrea quite literally tore himself away from his emotions to do his job better, and it fucked up his son. he is definitely an extreme case, but I wonder how widespread self-sacrifice for duty like that was across the ancients, and what effects it may have had on people.
makes me think that maybe ancient society was a lot less stable than we were shown.
I think Athena would have become a threat again eventually once the opportunity arose. I'm sure they would have taken in Middy as he was seeking refruge but at the same time I think without Meteon the Omicron wouldn't have stopped their war and would have eventually followed Omega's signal to their next destination. And who knows how many other threats out in the universe could have existed that ended because of Meteon?
Excellent video.
I'm always torn between wishing the Final Days had never happened and acknowledging that there were inconsistencies in their society that may have become glaring issues eventually.
It seemed all the worlds we encountered in The Dead Ends had achieved perfection and spiraled from there when they had nothing else to strive for.
Not saying that ancient society couldn't have kept their world the way it was, but you can't discount their willingness to slay 3/4 of the population to make the world exactly as it had been before. Not acknowledging death as a force beyond their control, but as their enemy - unless they were doing it willingly. It's very noble that they were willing to give so much, and I'm not even convinced they were wrong in trying to bring their people back after the sacrifices. But it ties into the Hermes dilemma, that final intended sacrifice before the sundering, that the ancients didn't truly value lives that weren't their own.
Emet-Selch calls it a "Utopia", and it was. The references to the book of the same name are there in The Tempest, Hythlodaeus is a reference, we're obviously being told that the ancient world was indeed a utopia, especially in Emet-Selch's recollection and recreation. They had their world and how they interacted with it down to a science.
As far as Hermes goes, I'm an absolute Emet-Selch simp, but the way he treated Hermes when he had reservations about the current Fandaniel stepping down was shitty, even going so far as to manipulate him by implying that Hermes didn't think that Fandaniel had earned his rest when it had nothing to do with that. It was the loss of someone dear to him that gave him pause. Hermes was relatable bc he was depressed and compassionate, but a second Hermes coming along seems unlikely. (Mostly) unchecked power, existential dread, existential curiosity, and obviously how conflicted he was between his own view that all life was valuable and his duty to the star. They couldn't coexist in his eyes. It eventually gave way to nihilism that followed him in his incarnations, even if he couldn't remember why. If all lives didn't have meaning, no lives had meaning.
I know what you mean!
On one hand, we get to experience this world and all the people in it because of the Final Days. Which doesn't seem so bad.
But on the other hand. The Final Days caused the death of untold trillions and perpetuated cosmic suffering for more than 12,000 years. Which any rational person would say is a very terrible thing. haha
@@SynodicScribe
Yeaahhh, I hope I didn't come across as "I'm glad the final days happened" or as if I condone it, bc I don't. At all.
I actually have a whole spiel about how terrible The Final Days actually were, which is part of what made the sundering so heartbreaking, but for the purposes of this video and comments section, decided it didn't need to be included in my already novella-length comments lol.
Imagine being the three that made it out alive and after trying everything to save your world and the people you love, it's all lost to ruin anyway. Then Emet-Selch having to live with seeing nothing but fragmented ghosts of his people for ages. Lahabrea went insane, Elidibus probably would have if he had any sort of memory.
Personally, I'd like to think that the ancients would have never followed the paths the other worlds took, but I guess we'll never know.
I agree with self termination. The Ancients will either be so bored to literal death, or they'd be purposeless so they become one with the Star. Or maybe an alien thing wipes them out lmao.
Or they'll become a cosmic invader that wants all planets to be perfect paradises like the Iscandarians.
When you first arrive in Ultma Thule Meteion bird basically talks about how souls, when an entire planet die still join a larger flow. Followed by that information you have Emet's "The civilizations in the shards would surprise you." I think that when Venat realized what was happening she channeled all the souls to the shards, and those entities still exist on those shards.
Meteion didn't plan on doing the final days. She hooked up to the hive mind of her siblings and Succumbed to their overwhelming sorrow and will. #Meteion did nothing wrong
Honestly if Hermes pulled the plug instead of pushing Meteion to the breaking point, who knows what woulda happened? Food for thought!
@@SynodicScribe His first mistake was not raising his kids right...Feeding them nothing but candy apples and letting them go anywhere they wanted in the Universe after curfew...of course, the youngest was going to develop a goth phase and take it waaay too far...
I think if Hermes never existed that Venat not wanting to return to the star would suddenly be a point of major contention between the ancients. Having ancients follow in her foot steps and ancients that do want to return to the star could make for a ancient civil war of some kind, maybe not in the logical sense of the term "war" or maybe it would be.
Let's say it would be an actual war, that could be an alternate way of making Hydaelyn? Because if ancients are following Venat it could be similar to summoning a primal without the negative effects of being tempered.
Sorry. I, Azem, was inconveniently away when this other being came to our House. 6:07
When Meteion shared her sisters' report the planets were listed in a numerical order, but does that order also match the order contact was made? Part of me wondered if some planets had weak aether, making them more vulnerable to the flock's growing aura of despair.
On topic, though... If Metion was never made, things would have happened differently for sure.
Some civilizations would still be wiped out by unstoppable plague or apocalyptic war, but others could have continued on for much longer. The Nibirun may have continued existing in apathy without being reminded of the other emotions and sensations they used to feel. Maybe a dragon would land on their star, shake them out of their apathetic numbness, and bring a bit of joy through song.
Back on Etheirys, the Ancients would continue their quest for perfection with a dash of one-upmanship. That minor competitiveness could keep things interesting for a while until all reasonable ideas are exhausted and creations become too weird and dangerous. At that point there may be a bit of a crisis. Should a person return to the star if they can't think of something to contribute? Should they become a steward who only acts when needed? Would there be some kind of migration to bring life to another star, or would that upset the etheric balance with so many souls leaving for good?
Shared to my FC group on Discord. Thank you scribe!
Hope it sparks a fun conversation!
Its shown in elpis that the ancient society is flawed, and striving for perfection, that same perfection is why i think Ishikawa said they could become like the DeadEnds 3rd źone people,
However, i dont think that would change history that much, because as soon as Venat would have seen them "unaliving themselves" as shown in the dead ends dungeon, she would have sundered the world yet again, even without meteion
The ancients were already apathetic. Because they had all their needs taken care of via the convocation they were like children. 2nd i think a world ending threat would of happened because in Venat's side story it says Azem sometimes had to fight hiant monsters mistakenly conjurred by children
If Meteon is now singing a song of hope, does that mean planets she may have halted previously can start anew? Could that be something we're going to explore in DT's Cosmic Exploration?
So long as the Song of Despair is ended, the universe can start recovering and those Stars might seed new life.
We wouldn't need to visit Elpis to find clues or truth about dynamisk. We would not be able to confront Athena in Pandemonium and Ultima through Athena would take over the will of the star to create Ultima's vision of the world.
But also, the star wouldn't be sundered and Zodiark wouldn't be summoned.
So we would play as our Azem self.
Going to harp in about Hermes a bit and what I consider to be. his mistakes.
As a disclaimer, I loved his character and am not faulting his writing and DEFINITELY not his superb voice acting.
Hermes' issues with the world can be placed under the umbrella of isolation and depression, a topic that I and many others have experience with.
Hermes was a very fringe case, because of these particular faults and/or decisions he made:
1.) He isolated himself from others. Hermes did not confide in others about his feelings at all, just assuming that they were all simply fine with the status quo, despite there being evidence in Elpis to the contrary. He also did not confide in Azem, their followers, or anyone else that could offer counsel.
2.) Hermes would not accept Fandaniel's decision to return to the Star. Of course, this is understandable; death sucks and seeing someone you care about die is a very scarring experience. However, Fandaniel made the decision to pass on of their own volition. It is what they wanted and Hermes did not seem to accept this.
3.) Hermes made Meteion without any peer review, because he wanted to stay isolated. A being that operates off and channels a force of energy that you have little understanding of? Sounds dangerous. Sounds like something you should be VERY careful with. Something that would benefit from the help of others.
After all, how many researchers would've jumped at the chance to assist Hermes if they knew what he was working on?
A lot, most likely.
4.) Hermes did not consider the possibility that he could make changes as Fandaniel. I do not know if there are any dialogues that state differently, but it seems that Hermes did not even consider the idea that he could make reforms when he took the office. Thing is, he probably could've done so; when Hades sees Hermes mourning the creation he had to put down, Hades' reaction is to simply say "join the Convocation." Hades had originally gone to Elpis to see if Hermes was fitting for the role. This implies that Hades had made up his mind by this point and decided that Hermes WOULD be suitable for the job.
Had Hermes taken up the offer with the intent to make the Star a better place, I genuinely think that he could've done so.
Overall, Hermes is a very tragic character; a man who had much potential, but instead sunk deeper into isolation. Had other people noticed sooner, or if he had reached out to others for support thibgs could've been very different.
(These are simply my opinions on the character. Definitely an interesting and surprisingly relatable one. I may have gotten some details wrong, so feel free to correct me.)
Just makes me think of Omega and Onicorns invading as the most likely conflict they'd face.
Hermes said "Are we all to die in satisfaction?" Well, yeah. Once no further improvements to the planet could be made, the human race would likely have a giant death party where they all return to the star and it would be the most ultimate beautiful. At least to their culture.
What is the nature of your relationship with the Seedseer since you seem to have such easy access to the Lotus Stand?
insider trading? lobbying? is the government of the seedseers caught up in scandal
tune in tonight
Thats why they call her the seedseer. Flower by day, plow'er by night
It's interesting to think that one of the only events that would not be changed by the absence of the Endsinger is Midgarsormer's and Omega's arrival. I how differently those events would have played out.
The Final Days is so instrumental to the world of FFXIV that it's hard to even speculate how things would have went without it.
Like you said, it's possible but unlikely that another Hermes would have been born; between his skill, knowledge, and station it's unlikely someone else like him would cause similarly catastrophic disaster. Whether the societal problems he embodies are addressed in another way or continue to fester are another question. However, I guess it's also worth mentioning that even if it was dealt with, he wasn't even the only talented, high-ranking individual to almost end the world, so...
It's also far from certain that even events such as Midgardsomr's arrival would occur, since the lack of the Endsong would mean that Midgardsomr could find life on alternative stars. If he did arrive though, he would likely have to entreat with the Convocation as the representatives for mankind. While formidable, I don't think Omega would pose a threat against the entire population of pre-sundering Etheirys and would potentially even serve as an early warning of conflict to come similar to the Enterprise first meeting the Borg in Star Trek: TNG.
Putting that all aside, like you and the developers said, the Nibirun are probably the best indication of what a "perfect" society with an inclination towards self-termination would do.
Heck, I remember that Midgardsormr or Omega, I can’t recall which one probably the former, mentioned that in their travel through the universe they found tons of dead stars.
@@Castersvarog Vritra says that Midgardsomr called Etheirys the "last bastion of hope," and later theorizes that he did so because the life of any other worlds had been snuffed out.
on some degree, mechainc of storytelling take their toll. they needed a throughline for the story to make sense, so everything is structured as a liner series of sequential events because basically thats how jrpgs are written. there are digressions here and there, but its very much a central spine where everything comes from, something that was seen(to my significant irritation) when they revealed that the 12 gods, seemingly unrelated to the story were actually just venats "apostles" everything follows the central thread.
to some degree it reminds me of the question of stasis versus change, the state of the ancients world was "perfect" and life stagnates with no external motivation to change. so likely something would have to have changed simply because maintaining stasis is impossible to do eternally, something changes. at the risk of turning into the moon channel, a lot of the underlying philosophy of ffxiv is buddhist, from the aetheric elements to the concept of constant spiritual reincarnation without a specific divinity maintaining it. its dharma basically. so the nature of reality is for even the ancients to change.
Finally, i am hoping the existence of dynamis shakes up our understanding of the world a bit, you may have noted that dyanmis actually changed the minds of the simulated immortal guys whose name i forget. they died off and destroyed themselves because of the stasis of the aetheric cosmology but dynamis is kind of a weird particle of "hope and purpose" of change and growth, and i hope to venat that they dont leave it as a one note maguffin, because it has a potential to help with some of the writing dead ends they have with the current world building. even the EA who were similarly depressed by the materialist view of atheric cosmology inevitably ending in a big crunch seemed to regard dynamis as a kind of outer variable that might prevent the eventual contraction of the universe. if they develop that route, ill almost forgive them for making the 12 more @#$%ing ancients.
I could see a different form of the final days happening as long as dynamis exists. One person finds a way to manipulate it and since it can't be sensed it could be treated as a sickness.
Always fan of informed speculation.
I suspect if things had continued, dragon-daddy's arrival would have been considered a positive. Aside from acclimating the refugees to a new society, I think the Ancients would have welcomed Midgardsormr. And Tiamat wouldn't be so depressing...
I think the change could be even simpler then to remove Hermes. When he voiced his concerns, he should have been assured that the current Fandaniel was close to getting well, bored and they know from experience that forcing someone to stay is torture in itself. Also they could then have pointed out people like Venat who chose to continue as they themselves felt it suited. But perhaps we miss out on something like that there was a genuine social pressure to end yourself rather then do so out of your own free will.
I think something that's important to keep in mind is that the unsundered world is depicted, frequently throughout the Elpis chapter of the MSQ, as a flawed society that's not quite as utopian as it fashions itself. Its people have seemingly no regard for life apart from their own; even the most good-natured character we meet turns a butterfly into robes without a second thought. And while there may not have been anyone else on Etheirys who would've taken the actions Hermes did, we see that there are other people who are malcontented with their society and who see through the facade of harmony to the problems festering beneath, but who don't feel empowered to say anything.
Furthermore it's a society that, just like the failed ones we meet beyond the stars, is devoted utterly to the pursuit of perfection and a world without suffering. It's about avoiding and denying the darkness in the world instead of accepting it and learning to overcome it-in fact their very aetheric makeup prevents them from doing so. The fact that all of these other societies failed is proof of Venat's philosophy: that this is a futile and ultimately doomed endeavor. And without a trigger to steer them off this path (and some way to make them more aware of dynamis), it's reasonable to assume that this pursuit would have ultimately doomed the Ancients as well.
Man, I could never imagine turning animals into cloths. What a crazy concept. Who would ever even think to do that?
@@lindthechaoticheretic8708 Funny. But I think there is, and is meant to be, a distinction between people who have a tradition of using animal parts for protective clothing (and who insulate themselves from the process), and so-called perfect people who walk up to a creature and snap their fingers with a big smile on their face to transform it into something for pure convenience. This is why the WoL has a dialogue option to react with surprise at it.
@@lindthechaoticheretic8708 Yeah, I loved that people use that to justify their lack of respect for life to my level 90 leatherworker... A way better example is this time one of them wiped out the entirety of her own species and made familiars out of the sundered pieces of their souls so that her familiars could grow strong through thousands of years of unspeakable suffering. But hey, I guess that butterfly thing was bad too.
@@AndyAnonymous The Ancients have bodies. Were they supposed to walk around naked? They can't make something from nothing, they need aether. And while this is supposed to make them look bad because we know we have to justify them being wiped out, it doesn't because the sundered do far, far worse. You act like there is no fashion in the sundered world. There is and tons of it involves leather and feathers.
@@MissKashira Last time I checked most clothing was made from fibers from plants. How would the Ancients get clothing? Obviously they'd weave it from thread, the same way sundered people do. As for leather, yes that does kill an animal, but if you've ever done the LTW quests you'd know there is a message constantly there of being respectful of the animals and only taking what they need. It's a very different thing from snapping a creature out of existence on a whim and acting like it's no different than turning a light switch off, like the Ancients are shown to do. As for "the sundered do far, far worse," [citation needed]
I suppose what could transpire depends on if Midgardsormr still finds Etheirys to be the last bastion of hope. If so, dragonkind comes to a fully aether rich Etheirys several times more dense than the state he finds it in when he enters into his pact with Hydaelyn. This would make The First Brood grow up even stronger than they are in our story. Given then that the dragons are peaceful but touched by war, and that the Ascians are peaceful, but this is their first contact... I suppose we could get a storyline where the Ascians and the Dragons become allies, and then fight against the Omicrons. Assuming that the Omicrons bother to follow Omega to Etheirys.
If nothing else, it could inspire Azem to want to travel out beyond the stars, and would then prompt the Ascians to devote concentrated societal effort to understanding outer space and Dynamis, and we might just wind up with an Ascian/Dragon society that wants to improve and perfect the entire universe, under a peaceful banner. Perhaps the Ascians would create spaceships.
It would certainly be interesting. Perhaps they could even solve the heat death of the universe after directly encountering the Ea.
Thank you for this unexpectedly nice on this topic video. Almost all supposition about the Ascians since Endwalker that I've run into online says that they were wrong and had to die. This open mindedness about the topic is refreshing.
I think as long as Venat is involved in the story, there is still a good chance the final days would have happened. She seemed convinced that the future the WOL comes from was inevitable after she hears about it. She also works to keep Hermes' actions a secret after everyone else's memories are erased. I think even if Hermes had changed sides early on and helped Emet, Venat would have found a way to sabotage them.
Without the endsinger we could have seen the ancients make contact with other worlds after a few centuries and join together to build an intergalatic society or alliance of some kind. How that plays out would be unknown through but interesting idea.
Interesting what if idea but what if Hythlodaeus agreed to take the seat of Emet Selch, convinced his friend Azem to support the Zodiark plan and through a weird chain of events Hades is reincarated as the warrior of light during the events of ARR while Hythlodaeus and Azem are part of the ascians.
It would be FF14, Jim, but not as we know it.
I dunno, I think the old Ascian peoples would either all shuffle off the mortal coil or start deliberately causing problems out of a need to perfect life, and seeing that Life Needs Strife! At that point they'd just be the villains again, but on purpose
What I wonder is if Meteion had not been launched and the Final Days had not occurred, would the Ancients have been present when Omega arrived on Etheirys as well?
If events still played out as usual then yes! Middy and Omega both might have arrived!
Alright, so I have a take on this here.
First, lets presume no emergent dynamis (at first) as the Ancient's lifestyle made that event borderline unique. It would take some sort of great social disruption to potentially shake another Hermes into the right position.
However, there are things from beyond the star that Dynamis either didn't effect, or that would have likely happened regardless.
First, we have to bring up Athena. All of her basically SCP infectious mental stuff that was leading her to want to become a god is heavily implied, if not outright stated, to be related to Auracite. The reason this comes up first is Auracite means Ultima. Not the spell, not the Primal that disrupted Ivalice fatally, but the original High Seraph. There's not too much I can say on this as I'm still fairly sure Actual Original Ultima is likely to be an upcoming expansion problem, but we have to acknowledge that while Athena herself is probably not a world ending threat (on her own), the source of her mad desires could be.
Next, we have Midgardsormr's arrival. This may or may not happen, depending on if the Omicrons still go on their shonen fight everything to improve themselves methodology continues despite a lack of Meteon (there are clues pointing to her seeing that conflict, but not how far along it was when one of her first arrived).
If we assume that Meteon caused that, then both Midgardsormr and the next possible incident end here. That's boring, so lets assume that the Omicrons still go about their ways, the dragonstar falls, and Midgardsormr arrives. The dragon that would be father to all broods on Etheirys may or may not end in conflict, as he is a refugee fleeing a foe. But he might be fleeing that foe in a violent manner, so the initial contact may well involve fighting between the ancients and the greatest of dragons.
This also leads to Omega, who was in hot pursuit of Midgardsormr. This means that any conflict between Midgardsormr and the Ancients would be short lived at most, either coming to some conclusion before hand, or having Omega stumble into the fight. We can't really say who would win between any one Ancient and either of these alien arrivals, but the Ancients have the numerical advantage...
...until more Omicrons arrive. Without the problems of Dynamis, this means that Omega likely doesn't simply become a lost and stranded scout, but a harbinger of a robot army. Even if Omega themselves falls, this might be the greatest conflict the star would see. Up until the potential emergence of the High Seraph (which could well happen during this conflict, for maximum chaos, before this conflict, nulling some of these points and creating another scenario entirely depending on who wins, or after the conflict, creating a story not unlike FFXIV's normal story, where just when you think you selttled, things, something else pops up.
And speaking of something else, we have two more alien arrivals we have to acknowledge, but these likely don't end in conflict if the Ancients survive the previous encounters without major societal upheavals (unlikely, but possible).
First, we have the Mandervillians. They did arrive on Etheirys to escape the Final Days, but we could see explorers (rather than refugees) stumble in with comedic timing. And knowing what the eventual adopted family that took up the alien's name as their own family name get up to, this feels highly likely. There probably wouldn't be any violent conflict here, but some of the Ancients are sure to get some major headaches.
This also means that the alien race that PuPu belongs to may well also arrive, though again, their arrival was due to the cataclysm caused by the Final Days and Dynamis, so this makes them a wildcard. But if they did arrive, their technology may well prove to still be problematic, even for a society like the Ancients. Anything that could create post-scarcity has some inherent dangers to it.
Additionally, we can't avoid things like the Alexandrians. Yes, they are a result of the sundering which is a result of the Final Days, but we know that some amount of cross timeline travel is possible due to what G'raha did with the Crystal Tower to stop the 8th Umbral Calamity. So while it's highly unlikely, ANY force from the sundered worlds of some timeline could find itself stumbling into a timeline where the world was never sundered. While such sundered peoples might not be a direct thereat, their arrival might well bring about some questions that could themselves create threats.
And among all these conflicts, primarily with aliens different in form and desire, and some with powers that could make for a threat that would rival that of the Endsinger... that is a situation where someone in a place of power among the ancients might sink into a depressive state, and seeking answers, build a hive of space probes that uses Dynamis to circumvent the speed of light for communication, and ask the exact wrong question to such a hive mind of probes. So we might see, thousands to tens of thousands of years later... the Endsinger rise and wreak havok upon a universe, but not in the way we are familiar with. But that would be once again a slender, almost unique event that could well bring about this same question once more.
Which branch was this? More stuff for Accord to document XD
Oh, wrong franchise I think, but we had some denizens from there come say hi and visit so quite interesting if the canon right now is just a branch among many. XD
The final days would have never happened...if only you had sold all three fish!
There’s always a next threat in FF. It always does seem that way. And the star is funnily enough a hot spot for weird things happening be they from another star or another dimension. But had the star not been sundered, we might have had other things to worry about. I’m of the belief that in some way, the universe always finds a way to correct itself, either by providence or the hand of man.
Without the sundering, the nier invasion would have happened on the one unsundered world and the discovery of 2B leggings would have inspired the ancients to discard their formless robes in the pursuit of fashion and glamour
Hermes: I agonize over the moral implications of being able to create and destroy life at a whim and how it pertains to the meaning of life and I am appalled at the apathy of my peers.
Athena: Since my creations live and die at my leisure and they are mine to do with as I please, therefore I am a god and any moral implications and life itself are thus meaningless.
I love the dichotomy between these two.
Given Athena's former position, could she have inspired Hermes worldview out of disgust?
Was the "sound from the earth" ever explained ?
Essentially that was the Endsinger's Song infecting the Star.
It is explained. We just weren’t around to hear it. Happened in the past, also happened in Thavnair.
I only read the thumbnail and I thought I was having schizo moment the entire expansion "What do you mean she never existed?"
I can't remember, was there any discussion of any civilization besides the Omicron and Midgardsormr exploring beyond their home planet? I don't recall if the Ea went to space or if they just deduced the heat death from their home. I could definitely see the Ancients deciding to explore the universe if their civilization made it to that point. That would have at least prolonged their search for new challenges and meaning for a very long time.
Yes. Not only does the Dead Ends dungeons list at least 18 Stars visited by the Meteia, Omega has a documentation list of life sustaining Stars he passed on his travels to the Source, and side quests like the Manderville story have revealed further worlds undocumented in the FFXIV universe.
@@SynodicScribe I was asking about stars that had achieved their own space travel, but I have no idea how I forgot about Pupu and the Mandervillians. I guess I subconsciously silo off that lore even though I know it's canon.
Oh My Drill.
THAT is why I hate the Niburun so much... They're the Anti-Spirals from Gurren Lagann!!
If the final days didn't happen, then my guess is that the High Seraph, Ultima, would have done some baaaad stuff through use of the Heart of Sabik. I have a feeling Azem was aware of her and working on something to do with her before Pandemonium. I think the cutscene with Lahabrea in Praetorium has more to do with resurrecting Ultima, rather than Zodiark as he is basically channelling her desire, with her power. He may think it is for Zodiark in part, but really it seems she was using him and manipulating him with the Heart. Given she was likely sundered with the star all she would want it to be rejoined. Obviously I have no idea, but that's the vibes I get.
Hermes just fell under the cracks
While it is certainly possible that the Ancients could have lasted forever, I'm not sure if I agree that Hermes was a one-of-a-kind threat to that stability. If he were simply having a mental breakdown, yeah, a counselor of some kind certainly could have helped him. What bothered Hermes was what he considered a massive flaw in the Ancients' perceived paradise: that in their efforts to create a better world they were instead causing immense suffering on their creations that did not survive the testing process, and perhaps even some that did.
There are similar controversial topics on Earth that I will not go into for the sake of the comments section, but there are many people here that feel there are genuine issues in how their society exists, and I am confident that there would be people on Etheirys who are fundamentally unsatisfied with how the Ancients live their lives. Counseling and therapy would do nothing to assuage their concerns, as it is not any kind of issue with their mind that is causing their distress, but the mismatch in how their world is and how they believe it should be.
The question, of course, is what is the likelihood that another one of these people could have taken his place, created something like Meteion, and triggered something like The Final Days. And...well...if the Ancients were unobservant enough to let Hermes do his thing, maybe they'd let another one slip by as well. Or they'd catch them in the act, and monitor the situation more closely. So really, who knows?
Either way, it is fun to speculate about other possibilities. Thank you for yet another amazing video, Synodic Scribe!
I always had a headcanon that if the final days wouldn't happen, then the ancients would eventually be divided and have civil war.
While I agree that there was a minute chance of anyone being in the position Hermes was in, I would argue that there may have been more ancients with the same mindset. One of rebellion and betrayal. With Ancients living for ever basically, overpopulation could become a thing and history teaches us that when empires grow too big, they tend to break apart (just look at rome).
I think eventually there would be enough Hermes like thinkers that would split off from the main ancients. Maybe war would ensue.
I know this is a longshot and I often come here both from a FFXI perspective and XIV perspective, but could you do a video after the FFXIV x XI Raid on how both worlds could possibly exist with one another while also explaining why they can't? I'm a HUGE nerd for both games and loved when XIV made several references to an old MMO I used to play
I can certainly try my best!
I think it's funny that so many people think that the ancients had no knowledge of mental health when the simpler answer is that Hermes just had a bad therapist.
Or you know. Hermes was just never a good guy. Kinda makes sense since he's, the villain. lol
@@SynodicScribe I believe that Hermes is not so different from Venat. I can totally imagine Venat being just as frustrated and depressed over her books, then throwing her hands in the air and going for a stroll that somehow ended as world wide journey, that gave her answers and turned her into a person we all know. Hermes kept searching for his answers in all the wrong places, and by "luck" it ended in universal extiction event. If he would be able to continue his search, maybe he would've made it - or ended as sorry nihilist Amon or just "returned to the star" as ancients call it, but well, we will never know.
I too think the world would have been better without twitter
I feel there is a chance they might have encountered the omicrons since they were kind of desperate for a new threat to give them purpose after they beat the dragons and I think a world of unsundered ancients would be strong enough to give them there reason to continue evolving
If Jenova existed in FF14 (or maybe she already exists but she travels in a different demension) and came, the Ancients would freak out and their world would end up becoming like the world in FF7 a world that has become imfested by the terrible decease knows as Jenova...
Makes me wonder if the Ancients from FF14 had the same abilities as the Cetran Ancients of FF7 being able to communicate with the planet and through there able to somehow quell Jenova's sickness upon their world?...
Personally, I don't think they would have succumbed to the same fate as what we see in the dungeon - they show enough individuality and enough clashing opinions that such would be very likely unless they started to experiment on themselves. I could see a few other major threats arising from within the Ancients, but the major shake-up would likely be Midgardsormr arriving to Eitherys - at which point I could see them trying to stop the Omicron people from their hostile conquest of the galaxy (after a lot of debate)
So a small thing that I personally noticed. I do not think that the ancients lacked the knowledge of mental health. They just didn't treat it as a serious issue. The mental health of PTSD was not considered a "real" issue until fairly recently, in the 1980's. Before that it was Shell Shock and the mental disorder wasn't taken anywhere near as serious as it is now. Now is there "proof" that Ancients could not handle pressure of extreme levels as PTSD? Yes, Acadaemia Anyder. When people saw the final boss, they didn't question that they could create monsters. What people didn't poke at was the mental state of that "ancient". Shadowbringers makes it very clear, if a shadow ancient acts in a way that goes against their creation they *poof* out of existence fairly quickly. That ancient being in a panicked and overly emotional state did not poof. In fact it's easy to make the argument that since it didn't poof out of existence, Hades knew in his heart that his Brethren cannot handle stressful situations and start to break down mentally. In this case an anonymous ancient sacrificed himself, pre-Zodiark summoning, to summon a monster guardian. That in itself is some evidence that Ancients either hid their mental state or denied it's severity.
That feels like a stretch. They existed for untold thousands of years and debated for fun as a pastime. To suggest they never debated/discussed any of these things at any point feels unfair.
That and the Endsinger's song was meant to instill despair, and with their limited understanding of Dynamis it makes sense the Ancient's anxiety wouldn't immediately recover even after the Final Days were averted.
Tbh you're explample is rather weak. Simply because of one thing. Would moden day mages or researchers do anything differently? Tbh no, how do i know? The msq , job quest and side quest. We seem the people of hydaelyn act in panicked desperate and self destructive ways for far less then the ancients. With far more selfish reason.
Also you say the ancients lack knowledge on mental health is silly when the video and in game lore proves you wrong. Tbh i find the way the fandom has to strawman the ancients to be weird af. When we see breast tribes and humans do the same thing but wrose.
@@SynodicScribe I wouldn't call it a stretch that the phantom ancient represented the potential mental health issues underlying beneath the ancients that is simply ignored for not being important enough to "heal" They could of simply seen it as a non-issue at that time. An example of taking little information to explain a deeper lore is FNAF whether you like it or not. Those fans took even less informationl and solved lore questions that the creator agreed with more often then not.
Also debating in of itself doesn't mean caring about some subjects or some honest talk about the subject. There is already a stigma with debaters in youtube being "Debate Bro" or "Debate Brain" from the way they lack caring of a subject matter at times. Vash is an example of his debate brain causing him to say and defend stupid things that shouldn't be defended. Debating isn't a perfect or all purpose solution solver or introspection of a person.
@@davidpower5710 The word "lack" isn't what I meant specifically. What I meant by lack of information is to point out the mental health of an ancient was not that high of a priority compared to the rest of the world. So if there were others they either buried it or just snapped like that phantom ancient did in Acadaemia Anyder.
@@SynodicScribe A hypothetical if I may on that phantom ancient. Let's say before he fully sacrificed his "life" to Quetzalcoatl we were able to stop time for a moment. Then we were able to take off the mask of that Ancient. What kind of face would that ancient be making? Considering how minor that problem was for the dungeon. By minor I mean the WoL has seen far worse of a mess in the MSQ before even running that dungeon. Did the ancient need to go to such extremes to "fix" Acadaemia Anyder? So back to the subject, what face would that ancient have? To me I could easily guess his face would be in duress. Which would be a clue that something isn't adding up about the perfect society that knew no wrongs.
I still think the Meteion/Endsinger's "super-nihilism" is unnatural; while things being dead and dying is depressing, wanting to mercy-kill the universe is another thing entirely...
Endsinger's lines during Phase 2 of the fight imply to me they saw "something" that pushed them over the edge...
So perhaps, if the Final Days did not occur, perhaps that eldritch "something" would've been the big problem they'd have to deal with eventually...
I think that "something" was that no matter what, life forms would end up in a miserable existence, even if they were outright immortal, free from war or disease.
the god that suicided in front of a Meteion is incredibly sus... that or praise to Ra-La
The future without the Final Days leads to the Omicron's Conquest of Etheirys long before they reached perfection.
*Looks at video title
"I pretend she doesn't."
*looks at other videos
That raises the question of "Would the Dragons have even COME to Etherys if there was no Endsinger?" I mean, didn't they come because their homeworld was lost?
Midgardsormr was fleeing from the Omnicron invasion, not the Final Days.
You asked what would happen if The End of Days never happened. Take a look at the story for Destiny 2. It mirrors so much of FFXIV it's crazy.
The main difference between the Ancients and teh Nibilim and Ea, was that the Ancients didn't make themselves immortal or at least, they were smart enough to include an off-switch.
True, they never considered themselves to be immortal despite their extremely long life spans.
I wonder how the Ancients would have reacted to Middy. I doubt they would have attacked him at first but you never know.
Imagine all the creators looking at him and INSPIRATION
Id like to think The Ancients would become stewards of The Universe! Decimating the Omocrons and uniting all worlds!
So instead of collapsing they would become more like celestial guardians? That would be cool to see. haha
I'm going to say I DO think that another person like Hermes would have eventually come about. Every society fails some of its people, every society eventually puts people into positions of power and authority who should not hold those offices. And add to that both the immense power the Ancients held and the extreme hubris of that civilization, and I do believe that Hermes was an inevitability. Yes the exact sequence of events and position afforded to him made the specific universe ending threat he created unique, but I will continue to believe that the Ancients were destined to eventually destroy themselves and possible the entire universe along with them based just off how their society was structured combined with the extreme level of power even the most common citizen held.
Also a side note about the Niberoon (the people from the Dead Ends) I encourage you to read the lore notes in the dungeon. The tales Meteon tells us about all three worlds in the voiced lines are all wrong. She's an unreliable narrator. The first world didn't die from disease, they died from climate collapse and pollution. On the second world, her appearance to one of the two major factions caused them to believe they were the special and chosen group, emboldening them in their war agains the others. And on the third world, they had no concept of the things they later found themselves to be lacking until Meton arrived and continued questioning them about what gave them meaning and joy, questions they hadn't considered until her arrival. For that world, she was quite literally the catalyst that drove them to self destruction. They may have arrived there eventually on their own, but they weren't at that point prior to her arrival.
No hermes. No amon no fandaniel in that form. Xande wouldnt have been resurrected alag probly wouldnt have happened anyway with the ancients still around unless they all decided to die peacefully
I think the argument of "the Ancients had no idea about mental health" is (perhaps intentionally) misleading. We see a snapshot of their society, and that doesn't mean we're privy to every facet of it. That'd be like an alien species watching a weeks' worth of news broadcasts of fairly banal local events and weather forecasts, and so assuming that humans had no knowledge of physics, philosophy, or the dinosaurs just because those topics never happened to be brought up.
I agree. After going over the lore it felt like a lot of players rushed to conclusions about the Ancients without trying to understand them.
BeneG. answered this months ago. 😂
ua-cam.com/video/M-OgYU6GgEY/v-deo.htmlsi=DQbb_YJNEftoQifj
What if the Final Days never happened?
FF Endwalker would have been a better addon with a different name.
case closed.
dw! its a joke! kind off.
There were plenty of bad ancients, and they were dealt with. The excuse that Hermes' mental health was the cause is just ignoring everything else and focusing on one thing to justify everything. Here's depression led him to betray all of his people and decide that he is justified in judging if people should live or die.
The ancient civilisation spanned eons, and they had many challenges of their own, this ultimately led to the civilisation they built.
Hermes did whatever he wanted to satisfy his own elvish desires, which broke the rules set for Elpis, which led to the clamity.
FF14 developers are the most based and meta devs ever. FF14 is always called a weeb game and their player base, for the most part, are cringe af. So they made the perfect depiction of the most depressed weeb of them all the final villain and orchestrator of the final days lol!!