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There is a brilliant company called easy composites and their youtube channel easy composites ltd is am absolute gold mine of composites. If you teamed up to write a curriculum id be so keen.
Totally! That channel's great! Doesn't post often but knowing they did a collab for a carbon bicycle frame I wouldn't be surprised they'd like to do a collab with HPA. I would love to watch a motorsport focused course in composite fab.
@12:00 That's one way to do it. The other way is to use pressure sensors around the car to detect pressure changes on the body panels/surrounding area. The book "Modifying the aerodynamics of your road car" by Julian Edgar has some excellent examples of doing this kind of DIY/budget aero testing for those that can't spend big bucks on CFD/wind tunnel testing.
Hi I built my KP 60 Starlet flat floor out of 3 mm Snowbond Got it from Horton signs in Rangiora $80 Rear diffuser is a 4 1/2 to 1 expansion ratio Bent out of 1.2 mm Alu sheet Photos on Engine swap depot Starlet with a G13 B Suzuki On the dash shows the manometers for measuring the down force on the flat floor and the diffuser At 3 mile hill hillclimb the aero works I’m 185 Kph flat to floor on the long right Stable as
Canterbury University use to rent out their wind tunnel... I did a lotus 7 in it around 10 years ago. Otherwise there is a rentable one in Wellington that I hired via work for testing turbine blades. Both will fit a large racecar. FYI incase you ever want to do a tunnel video 😂
I would recommend using a poly foam core instead of a honeycomb core. The poly foam is a fraction of the cost and has less resin consumption which yields a light part that has similar stiffness. A 3/8” foam core with a 600gsm layer of CF on each side should be enough.
What density core? Supported where? What's the shear psf allowable? Needs a little design work up front to know it's gonna work. There's also damage tolerance to take into account...it is going to go off roading and scraping curbs.
Please please do a course in composites. It’s such a secret industry. All the business are flat out. I have tried to get anyone all over Australia to make some items for me and they have said they are too busy and it will be 4 month wait if they want to take on the job. They said frankly the job it soo small and they want to focus on massive projects which I fully respect. I am at the point where I have to attack it myself but the knowledge is scarce. It’s a art and a lot of the skilled players don’t like sharing. Please please please release this course!
I've been researching carbon reinforced composites and I've begun purchasing consumables for my first project. Information is a little scattered but it's available. Honestly the hardest part was finding a local supplier. As mentioned by others, Easy Composites out of the UK have a brilliant UA-cam channel offering very detailed free advice as a marketing strategy for their composite systems. I've learned enough from them to give me all the confidence I needed to get started. I have already got HPA courses but I probably wouldn't pay for a composites lesson.
Another possible reason for a 'flat floor' may be rally and other off-road motorsports - Better protection from stone damage, less mud build-up, and easier to slide over rocks, etc, without catching the chassis.
Definitely need a course in building an active aero composite, I have a place in the states that has a few wind tunnels and I can’t pay what they are asking just to do a few downforce tests. I have a ton of CF plates for a flat floor
Yeessssss do the composites. Easy Composites on youtube has great videos on the subject. Maybe try to team up with them for motorsport composites? It would end up being the top source for practical composites information for sure.
NACA duct: please correct me if I am wrong! The rear diffusor is to accelerate the air under the car, in your case under the flat floor. That means the pressure is lower vs. ambient and vs over the flat floor. So due to this pressure difference, not much air will go through via NACA duct. Rather I would direct the air from sideways, doing that the over the floor pressure will be increased, hence higher downforce.
I'd wager the pressure inside the compartment would be low enough that the naca ducts would be functional. The nacas themselves also create a low pressure area which is one of the reasons they function.
I agree. The area above the plate is the same air as is in the engine bay. Air in the engine bay is high pressure air, it's not really flowing at all and it is turbulent. Holes in the plate will 'leak' high pressure air. In the case of these NACA Ducts, if they lead to an area of even lower pressure than is below the car then they will flow, but I can't imagine where that would be.
I would be interested in composite manufacture. Would be great to do something similar to your electronics and go from "club-level" to a fairly professional level. Don't forget I think alot of people would like to know this for general body kit stuff, new splitters front end, skirts maybe even interior stuff. Not purely aero but also aesthetic or even just replacement parts.
I think the composites topic is a definite interest. We've basically put together a whole motorsports package, and while Aero is really it's own massive topic and not necessarily the competency of HPA (per se), I think composites is a natural next step to cover. Now more than ever with vacuum bagging etc, hobbyist are able to make their own parts. Could also be interesting for your own development and learning at HPA? Love the content and the level of depth.
We agree. The boys here already do a bit of it, they just made a carbon roof for the team project car and Brandon has made some parts for the 86. We'd look at getting an experienced industry pro in the field to present a course aimed at multiple levels though rather than us just showing our own applications. Course quality is always top priority rather than just having something to have something 🤘 We'll make an announcement if we can get something rolling, there seems to be sufficient interest out here which is great to see too as we want to do things people need and will actually use and benefit from too 😎 - Taz.
Using a rotary cnc machine and cutting out an isogrid strucutre into the pu foam insert would lessen quite a few grams while still having a lot of rigidity
The boys here are putting one on their Honda City project. Not sure if it will happen to the 86 though. Time will tell, it's hard to not just keep modifying it 😅 - Taz.
nice to see you guys trying some aero too how long until you guys are building an underdog F1 car and going after Mercs and Redbull? 😅 shame that nowadays that's not a real possibility for non-unlimited-budgets garages anymore...
With the Flat Floor I don't need to know Data facts and figures. All I need to know in a nutshell is what happened to the Lap Times and any other issues that may have or may not have cropped up. My train of thought for the last forty or so years is 'If it didn't make me faster it didn't stay on the car'. That's a very simplistic way of looking at it but it's worked for me pretty well for a few decades now. I've just completed, a few weeks back, making the front 'third' of the flat floor for my Honda.
The thing with aero is that it will make you faster and slower as Andre discusses, but it's a matter of making sure it makes you faster where it counts. If you watch the likes of F1 they discuss it often too when it comes to tracks where they run higher downforce setups and sacrifice top speed for corner speed, and tracks where they want less drag and higher top speeds vs corner speed due to the layout. With all that in mind, it isn't always as simple as 'this makes me go faster 100% of the time' as you get into the weeds of car setup and how and where you are racing. From there class rules can also play a role in what you can and can't do, sometimes compromising potential. All part of the game - Taz.
I'd love to see some composites from you guys, especially something budget driven maybe using factory 2nds weaves and showing how to source them, also for you fabrication it'd be cool to see you working with some oval piping in confined spaces to get the highest flow using available realestate.
i think about it but i have 2 70mm exhaust pipes that glow, and they would heat up everything inside, and melt plastic in floor, i think to use 1.5 mm al sheet and frame
My understanding is that the NACA ducts work efficiently because of the flat to sharp drop off, creating vortices off the edge. The mounting in the pictures, where the plastic inch lip is on the outside might be disturbing the air and lower the amount of air they would normally flow, and I think they should have been mounted on the inside instead.
What is strange is you had actual results from fitting that aero package made by Top Stage. But after all year testing and a huge development program the very long ago winning Honda DC2 driving by a " Professional " driver in Club Sprint ( Not Legal ) in the NSW Time attack event just on there car was the same speed if not slower in every section of the track. There is a complete photo set floating about various Time Attack Building pages showing the reduction in speed. It just shows you need to know what you are doing with aerodynamics and have to have a driver that can get the full effect of the changes.
1. Get a PhD in fluid mechanics or aerospace engineering and work in a wind tunnel. 2. Join Formula SAE at university and become the aero lead. 3. Start working as a mechanic for a racing team. Dedicate every waking moment travelling around the country. Start fabricating. 4. Get a beater with some power, strip it cage it, duck tape cardboard cutouts to it, learn to fabricate, learn to make molds, fiberglass.
Andrew Brilliant dove into it via land speed racing and progressed from there, I haven't had a chance to listen to his podcast with us yet but he's spoken about it in a few other interviews with us and around the internet and is just one person in the industry that is worth looking up for this question. A P has some valid points too =) - Taz. - Taz.
We do have a composites course in the works which will cover mold making, however in the meantime you might also find learning how to 3D model a valuable skill for this. If you are making a mold from an existing part then you won't need that, but there it might come in handy is for smaller pieces or sections. We just made a small reverse mold for a wiring break out box that was 3D printed as an example. Another would be being able to model a wing in CAD to get the profile you wanted etc and then route or plasma cut out sections to make a mold/template from. Obviously what you should/can do is very project dependant so if I was you I would pick a project first and foremost and then set out the path to make that happen, and start learning how to do that in steps. That's just my advice, and I would also add that I would certainly shop around for advice from others too haha Hope it helps though! - Taz. PS: We have a 3D CAD course if you decide to go down that path: www.hpacademy.com/courses/3d-modeling-and-cad-for-motorsport/?
haha yes the accent can be an 'acquired taste' but we do add subtitles to everything if that helps 😎 We are also less puffed than when you hear the average All Black on TV so that might also work in our favour 😅 - Taz.
I love how your collecting data. No data has ever been a waste. If you can measure any type of drag and corner speed difference, you have the grounds to add data to calculate other aerodynamic settings.
![1000HP+ is useless without Aero | AMB Aero [TECH TALK]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pZrHISS4oMY/mqdefault.jpg)
![1000HP+ is useless without Aero | AMB Aero [TECH TALK]](/img/tr.png)
🏎 Building a fast car? Get $400 OFF the all-inclusive VIP online course package deal: hpcdmy.co/vipy140
👨🏭 Learn to make awesome custom parts for your own projects. 50% OFF your first fabrication course: hpcdmy.co/offery140
There is a brilliant company called easy composites and their youtube channel easy composites ltd is am absolute gold mine of composites. If you teamed up to write a curriculum id be so keen.
I second this. They have top tier instructionals on this topic. Maybe a collab with them would be possible?
Totally! That channel's great! Doesn't post often but knowing they did a collab for a carbon bicycle frame I wouldn't be surprised they'd like to do a collab with HPA. I would love to watch a motorsport focused course in composite fab.
@12:00 That's one way to do it. The other way is to use pressure sensors around the car to detect pressure changes on the body panels/surrounding area. The book "Modifying the aerodynamics of your road car" by Julian Edgar has some excellent examples of doing this kind of DIY/budget aero testing for those that can't spend big bucks on CFD/wind tunnel testing.
Julian’s book is amazing, and his videos too
I love how accessible Julian makes empirical testing with easy and cheap tools.
Hi
I built my KP 60 Starlet flat floor out of 3 mm Snowbond
Got it from Horton signs in Rangiora $80
Rear diffuser is a 4 1/2 to 1 expansion ratio
Bent out of 1.2 mm Alu sheet
Photos on Engine swap depot
Starlet with a G13 B Suzuki
On the dash shows the manometers for measuring the down force on the flat floor and the diffuser
At 3 mile hill hillclimb the aero works
I’m 185 Kph flat to floor on the long right
Stable as
Canterbury University use to rent out their wind tunnel... I did a lotus 7 in it around 10 years ago. Otherwise there is a rentable one in Wellington that I hired via work for testing turbine blades. Both will fit a large racecar. FYI incase you ever want to do a tunnel video 😂
Carbon / Kevlar component fabrication lessons would personally be a dream come true.
there's some amazing channels out there already. there's one that sells supplies that was better than most out of the UK
@@southjerseysound7340 'Easy Composites Ltd' UA-cam channel. Excellent stuff.
@@derwhalfisch that's it and thanks I didn't have time to look and couldn't remember.
I would recommend using a poly foam core instead of a honeycomb core. The poly foam is a fraction of the cost and has less resin consumption which yields a light part that has similar stiffness. A 3/8” foam core with a 600gsm layer of CF on each side should be enough.
What density core? Supported where? What's the shear psf allowable? Needs a little design work up front to know it's gonna work. There's also damage tolerance to take into account...it is going to go off roading and scraping curbs.
Please please do a course in composites. It’s such a secret industry. All the business are flat out. I have tried to get anyone all over Australia to make some items for me and they have said they are too busy and it will be 4 month wait if they want to take on the job. They said frankly the job it soo small and they want to focus on massive projects which I fully respect. I am at the point where I have to attack it myself but the knowledge is scarce. It’s a art and a lot of the skilled players don’t like sharing.
Please please please release this course!
I've been researching carbon reinforced composites and I've begun purchasing consumables for my first project.
Information is a little scattered but it's available.
Honestly the hardest part was finding a local supplier.
As mentioned by others, Easy Composites out of the UK have a brilliant UA-cam channel offering very detailed free advice as a marketing strategy for their composite systems.
I've learned enough from them to give me all the confidence I needed to get started.
I have already got HPA courses but I probably wouldn't pay for a composites lesson.
Another possible reason for a 'flat floor' may be rally and other off-road motorsports -
Better protection from stone damage, less mud build-up, and easier to slide over rocks, etc, without catching the chassis.
Definitely need a course in building an active aero composite, I have a place in the states that has a few wind tunnels and I can’t pay what they are asking just to do a few downforce tests. I have a ton of CF plates for a flat floor
C
Yeessssss do the composites. Easy Composites on youtube has great videos on the subject. Maybe try to team up with them for motorsport composites? It would end up being the top source for practical composites information for sure.
NACA duct: please correct me if I am wrong! The rear diffusor is to accelerate the air under the car, in your case under the flat floor. That means the pressure is lower vs. ambient and vs over the flat floor. So due to this pressure difference, not much air will go through via NACA duct. Rather I would direct the air from sideways, doing that the over the floor pressure will be increased, hence higher downforce.
I'd wager the pressure inside the compartment would be low enough that the naca ducts would be functional. The nacas themselves also create a low pressure area which is one of the reasons they function.
I agree. The area above the plate is the same air as is in the engine bay.
Air in the engine bay is high pressure air, it's not really flowing at all and it is turbulent.
Holes in the plate will 'leak' high pressure air.
In the case of these NACA Ducts, if they lead to an area of even lower pressure than is below the car then they will flow, but I can't imagine where that would be.
Thanks for the update guys hope you win alot of races this year!🏎🏎🏎🏁🏁🏁
Yes, we want to learn how to make composite parts! Brake cooling ducts for instance.
easy composite, for beginners , you can make shape from styrofoam and cover it with something you have, i made many parts on that way,
I would be interested in composite manufacture. Would be great to do something similar to your electronics and go from "club-level" to a fairly professional level.
Don't forget I think alot of people would like to know this for general body kit stuff, new splitters front end, skirts maybe even interior stuff. Not purely aero but also aesthetic or even just replacement parts.
Yeah....any construction material composite based vid is appreciated.....realizing cost ratios and focal to Rhys millens Toyota tocama example ....
I think the composites topic is a definite interest. We've basically put together a whole motorsports package, and while Aero is really it's own massive topic and not necessarily the competency of HPA (per se), I think composites is a natural next step to cover. Now more than ever with vacuum bagging etc, hobbyist are able to make their own parts. Could also be interesting for your own development and learning at HPA? Love the content and the level of depth.
We agree. The boys here already do a bit of it, they just made a carbon roof for the team project car and Brandon has made some parts for the 86. We'd look at getting an experienced industry pro in the field to present a course aimed at multiple levels though rather than us just showing our own applications. Course quality is always top priority rather than just having something to have something 🤘
We'll make an announcement if we can get something rolling, there seems to be sufficient interest out here which is great to see too as we want to do things people need and will actually use and benefit from too 😎 - Taz.
The Fk8 Honda Civic Type R has covered the entire underside of the chassis with flat panels.
+35 lbs in the best place you can put it
Hi guys! Nice update - as always :)
The Motorsport composites materials course would be a really nice addition in my opinion!
Greetings from Italy
Using a rotary cnc machine and cutting out an isogrid strucutre into the pu foam insert would lessen quite a few grams while still having a lot of rigidity
+1 vote for courses on how to build out of carbon etc.
I want to do this to my V50 but it seems no one has done it that I can find. So leaves me making it, great video and educational on how it works
Yes I am interested in some composite courses
A carbon roof tutorial would be sweet like butter.
The boys here are putting one on their Honda City project. Not sure if it will happen to the 86 though. Time will tell, it's hard to not just keep modifying it 😅 - Taz.
This was always something I wanted to learn more about
YES PLEASE do a composites course!
nice to see you guys trying some aero too
how long until you guys are building an underdog F1 car and going after Mercs and Redbull? 😅
shame that nowadays that's not a real possibility for non-unlimited-budgets garages anymore...
Great presentation mate
Thank you! Apprecaite the support 🤘
With the Flat Floor I don't need to know Data facts and figures. All I need to know in a nutshell is what happened to the Lap Times and any other issues that may have or may not have cropped up. My train of thought for the last forty or so years is 'If it didn't make me faster it didn't stay on the car'. That's a very simplistic way of looking at it but it's worked for me pretty well for a few decades now. I've just completed, a few weeks back, making the front 'third' of the flat floor for my Honda.
The thing with aero is that it will make you faster and slower as Andre discusses, but it's a matter of making sure it makes you faster where it counts.
If you watch the likes of F1 they discuss it often too when it comes to tracks where they run higher downforce setups and sacrifice top speed for corner speed, and tracks where they want less drag and higher top speeds vs corner speed due to the layout.
With all that in mind, it isn't always as simple as 'this makes me go faster 100% of the time' as you get into the weeds of car setup and how and where you are racing. From there class rules can also play a role in what you can and can't do, sometimes compromising potential. All part of the game - Taz.
I'd love to see some composites from you guys, especially something budget driven maybe using factory 2nds weaves and showing how to source them, also for you fabrication it'd be cool to see you working with some oval piping in confined spaces to get the highest flow using available realestate.
i think about it but i have 2 70mm exhaust pipes that glow, and they would heat up everything inside, and melt plastic in floor, i think to use 1.5 mm al sheet and frame
The pile on test had me rolling 😂
I would definitely buy a composite course
+1 for the composites course
My understanding is that the NACA ducts work efficiently because of the flat to sharp drop off, creating vortices off the edge. The mounting in the pictures, where the plastic inch lip is on the outside might be disturbing the air and lower the amount of air they would normally flow, and I think they should have been mounted on the inside instead.
Agree, NACA ducts are sensitive to how they are mounted and what they are used for. Maybe a simple submerged air scoop would pull more air in there?
Thanks for these tech videos and yes panel/mold fabrication would be sweet!! :)
Cheers
What is strange is you had actual results from fitting that aero package made by Top Stage. But after all year testing and a huge development program the very long ago winning Honda DC2 driving by a " Professional " driver in Club Sprint ( Not Legal ) in the NSW Time attack event just on there car was the same speed if not slower in every section of the track. There is a complete photo set floating about various Time Attack Building pages showing the reduction in speed. It just shows you need to know what you are doing with aerodynamics and have to have a driver that can get the full effect of the changes.
Definitely interested in composites courses content!
I strongly want to get involved in race car aero testing/production like this. How do I maneuver into this area?
1. Get a PhD in fluid mechanics or aerospace engineering and work in a wind tunnel.
2. Join Formula SAE at university and become the aero lead.
3. Start working as a mechanic for a racing team. Dedicate every waking moment travelling around the country. Start fabricating.
4. Get a beater with some power, strip it cage it, duck tape cardboard cutouts to it, learn to fabricate, learn to make molds, fiberglass.
Andrew Brilliant dove into it via land speed racing and progressed from there, I haven't had a chance to listen to his podcast with us yet but he's spoken about it in a few other interviews with us and around the internet and is just one person in the industry that is worth looking up for this question.
A P has some valid points too =) - Taz. - Taz.
I know how to do composites I worked military and civilian aviation, but I would love to learn how to make the molds
We do have a composites course in the works which will cover mold making, however in the meantime you might also find learning how to 3D model a valuable skill for this. If you are making a mold from an existing part then you won't need that, but there it might come in handy is for smaller pieces or sections.
We just made a small reverse mold for a wiring break out box that was 3D printed as an example.
Another would be being able to model a wing in CAD to get the profile you wanted etc and then route or plasma cut out sections to make a mold/template from.
Obviously what you should/can do is very project dependant so if I was you I would pick a project first and foremost and then set out the path to make that happen, and start learning how to do that in steps.
That's just my advice, and I would also add that I would certainly shop around for advice from others too haha Hope it helps though! - Taz.
PS: We have a 3D CAD course if you decide to go down that path: www.hpacademy.com/courses/3d-modeling-and-cad-for-motorsport/?
Love to learn composites.
fabulous video, guys
carbon / Kevlar is something very secretly kept so of course we would love to have info on those mats
I know I'm late to the party, but I'd definitely be interested in a motorsport composites course!
Look up tutorials by Easy Composites.
I'd love to see the composites courses!!
Very interested in the composite mold tutorials.
Would a concave bottem be better then flat?
75°C with a full exhaust? Wrapped?
To start of with perhaps a class to learn Kiwi. Luckily I'm an All Blacks fan so I've developed somewhat of an ear for it. 😄
haha yes the accent can be an 'acquired taste' but we do add subtitles to everything if that helps 😎
We are also less puffed than when you hear the average All Black on TV so that might also work in our favour 😅 - Taz.
@@hpa101 You're a good sport.🤙
I love how your collecting data.
No data has ever been a waste.
If you can measure any type of drag and corner speed difference, you have the grounds to add data to calculate other aerodynamic settings.
Yesss defo keen on composites haha my splitter currently weighs 29kilos🤣
That's a bit of heft! - Taz.
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