My Rossi 44 Mag Is SLOW - Tell me Why!
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Compared to where I think it should be, velocities from this 24" Ross 44 Magnum seem slow. Is it blow-by, or not enough bite, or something else. HELP!
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Hi, George! I'm from Brazil and here the Rossi 92 is one of the most accurate rifles we have. I measured the bore from a Rossi 92 in .357 MAG once and it gave me back .356'' (the SAAMI dimension is .355''). The +.005'' you got is waaay longer than what it should be. Taurus should replace your gun, IMO. Good luck and I hope you get a good and accurate one!
Thanks! It's good to hear from my friends way down south😉
If you reload, you can use a slower burning powder, if not, then you can look for a carbine loading of 44, although I don't recall ever seeing one. Remember that the 44magnum is a predominantly a pistol round, and as such uses a fairly fast burning powder. As crazy as it might sound, you may get better velocity from a 16 inch barrel, as there will be less drag on the bullet after the powder has been fully burned. Hope this helps.
I think that you're onto something there ...
"The .44 Magnum" IS predominately A short range revolver cartridge. It isn't Necessarily designed ed for precise accuracy @ longer ranges .
IF ... Rossi can't help out , I think I'd start with an oversized bullet mold .
Call Rossi and send it back so they can re-barrel it .
I think the other problem is the barrel is too long. Pistol caliber rifles actually preform better in carbine length barrels. 16 or 18 inch barrels give greater velocities in 357 and 44 magnum than 20 or 24 inch barrels because the powder volume isn’t great enough in those calibers for the longer barrels.
This is not correct. Full house load of h110 under a 240 jacketed bullet is doing between 1620-1700fps in 4 of my 16" .44's. Hovering around 1800fps out of either of my 20" .44's. My 24" is closer only about 75fps faster than that...but it is faster. I could probably up the charge a bit and eek a few more fps out of the 24" if I didn't care about brass life. Or I could run a slower powder and the difference would greatly favor the longer barrels.
This may be true with mousefart handloads (soft cast bullet over light charges of fast burning powder), but its certainly not true of any 200-300 grain load over slow powder. Or any jacketed factory load that's not a powderpuff, for that matter.
This is just a guess but I think overloaded rounds would shorten its life. My Rossi 92 just by looks does seem like it would handle many overloaded rounds. I think it would be needing some reinforcement to prevent damage. I'd only run basic rounds, but again only guessing based off my 92.
Or poor gas seal from an out of spec barrel. But hey screw measurements and observing rifling engagement on fired bullets right?
If you keep it you can work around the issue by loading slightly oversized cast lead bullets. I hope Rossi helps you out and fixes it for you though. I just bought a new one I haven’t had a chance to shoot. It’s my first one from Rossi. Keep us posted on how everything goes.
This was not the best advertisement for Rossi for sure, but man- I am so glad I found your channel a couple of weeks ago! Thank you for walking us through the process of figuring out what was wrong. Very interesting!
Thanks! Welcome aboard!
Glad to see that you read comments and look into suggestions that are added. As a former machinist, when I watched your video about your disappointment with that Rossi, my mind went right to a tolerance issue in the diameter. Now don't go turning yourself into a Glock guy. Not saying that they are bad guns, as I own a couple myself, but we don't need another Hickok45. I hope Rossi comes through with a new barrel as I think that is the only fix. After all, you can add metal back in.
Thanks for your comment. And no there's no chance of me trying to emulate hickok45. He is my UA-cam Idol but I don't have the guns, knowledge, or experience that he does so I'm going to stay with what I know and love.
You would do well to learn all you can from Hickok45. He has likely forgotten more about firearms and shooting than a lot of folks will ever know. Only a know it all fool would discount him. Target suite knows and respects that. Says a lot.
I can't wait to see what Rossi does. The barrel being so far out of spec almost sounds like they have a tooling issue at the factory where their tools are worn out. I'd be curious to know if others are having the same issues, though - maybe someone with an early version could weigh in to determine if that is how they've made them from the beginning?
I have a Winchester model 94AE large loop lever. (Just like John Wayne in True Grit) I really like this tool. I keep it at the door for bear protection. (I live in AK) Watching yourself and Hickok45 has gotten me excited to add to my 44 collection. I love a leaver gun. I doubt I'll get the Rossi though. You've piqued my interest in a 45/70 as well. Just have to get over the cost of ammo and the pounding the gun delivers.
I enjoy your program!
Thanks! I appreciate your comment.
Oversize bore more than likely,just use fatter bullets and bump up the powder charge a little.The accuracy should also be suffering if the bore dia is grossly oversize.Buying a Rossi is a roll of the dice and you usually get a good one but sometimes not.Personally I have had good luck and love both my Rossi's but I know people who have had bad ones.Good luck!
I have the same rifle. Reloading is a rewarding experience. I want to do it all, but I recognize that I must limit my experience to just a few calibers. .44 magnum is one of those calibers. I try to find the biggest bullets that are available for reload. I do cast my own and have had great success doing that. Many people try to achieve the highest velocity possible in any cartridge. I am the opposite. I like a big hunk of lead going down range at a reasonable rate of velocity. I load 45-70 and my attitude is the same with that cartridge. This attitude carried over from my experiences with black powder shooting and hunting. I was impressed with the ability of a large diameter projectile to punch through an animal when high velocity cartridges do not. I have always been of the mindset that two holes are better than one especially in a lung shot. The animal breathes and it acts like a pump and they bleed out in short order. I have found animals with a single bullet hole that made it away from where they were shot. Anyway, there is no reason that that .44 magnum could not bring down every North American breed of animal. The cartridge is capable but limited to range. I have had a lot of success with #2 Lyman alloy in rifles. As far as bullet size, you can choose a different set of mold blocks and experiment with that and perhaps some gas checks. Every rifle is different and each one has a load and loading principle that will perform well in it specifically. Factory loads are ok, but limited. The manufacturers know that their loadings are a compromise and as such may perform in some rifles and not others. Handloading eliminates the guesswork out of the various combinations. Generally the factory ammo is geared for velocity and frankly that is all that some consumers look at. There is far more to shooting than just velocity. So, I would choose a larger diameter bullet and play around with the alloy. The best accuracy comes from bullets being swayed in the bore from breach to muzzle. Elmer Keith has some good books about all of this.
I just got a 20" carbine in 45 Colt. I'm super happy with the wood, fit and finish and overall function so far. I did remove the objectionable (to me) add-on safety and installed a filler button. I also replaced the green plastic magazine follower with a nice stainless one. It now seems perfect to me. And your barrel slugging does not surprise me as I had a 44 Mag Rossi about 15 years ago and it really shot better with oversized lead bullets. I'd like to see your 45 Colt Rossi barrel slug dimensions... you may have done that already... I'll look. As before - great vid! Enjoy your work.
Oversize bore would have been my first guess. Reloading oversize lead bullets will solve the problem, but I hope Rossi takes care of you. Thanks for the video, and happy new year.
And to think, that back when I was lusting after an R92 in .44-40 the problem with many, if not all R92s so chambered, was that they were almost perfectly machined for the .44Spl/.44 Mag in terms of lands and grooves. To be fair though, I discovered that many far more expensive carbines, rifles AND revolvers "chambered" in .44-40 had the same "problem". I came to the conclusion, and it is my opinion only, that manufactures looked at the bottom line and felt that it was cheaper to just screw in barrels that would be better suited for the .44 Magnum than to invest in any new equipment that provided barrels for firearms sold as .44-40s. And so, the .44-40 met its second death. If I were to run up on a current edition R92 like yours, I would be sorely tempted to handload lead, hollow base, flat point round nose bullets over warmish .44Spl powder charges and work my way up power wise until accuracy and/or leading became a problem. Excellent video as usual! Keep 'em coming in 2023!!!
I have reached similar conclusions after a decade of loading ammo for a 44-40 Marlin cowboy. I haven't tried the hollow base bullets, but that would help. It would be simpler if manufacturers would build the rifles correctly in the 1st place.
@@tedpfenninger4972 And yes that is an "Ah Men Brother!!!" you just heard!!!!
Wow! That's certainly a lot more difference than I would have anticipated! Yes, you called it. A lot of gas blowby. I'm actually surprised you got as much rifling marks as you did. The powder is apparently fast enough to cause a significant amount of bullet upset - more than I would have anticipated with jacketed bullets.
Enough expression of my surprise. Definitely see what Rossi does. Properly done they'll exchange rifles. If you end up keeping it, you will want to use a plated bullet that will protect the lead from gas cutting, yet still soft enough to finish upsetting into to grooves. The old time solution to this issue was hollow based bullets - and that works, too, but isn't ideal. Reloading is going to be problematic. Neck sizing will be preferable to full length sizing, but in that case you'll need to segregate the ammo for that rifle. In other words, this Rossi will work better for someone who has only the one rifle. At 50 fps per inch, you should expect an additional 200 fps from a 24 inch barrel (that is when dimensions are correct).
Good luck!
Great comment! Thanks!
Sadly, 95% of shooters wouldn’t have known the difference. It would either shoot or it wouldn’t. Great video as always. And to be honest, I’m probably in the 95%.
I totally get that. And I too would probably be in the 95% if I wasn't making video content and always thinking critically.
I recently purchased a Henry in 45 long colt, basically because I found I had 700 rounds of once fired brass. I have been playing around reloading for this rifle it is really fun to shoot.
I like the slug test you did, I think you hit the nail on the head solving the mystery. Your Rossi is basically an expensive knock of the Winchester, and obviously not as near as well made. Buying cheep guns is a gamble and you get what you pay for. If it were me I would send the Rossi down the road and keep the Winchester
I'm definitely keeping the Winchester. We'll see what Rossi has to say.
That would have been my first guess. Reloading with an oversized lead bullet will solve the problem. Hope Rossi will take care of you. Thanks for the video, and happy new year.
@murphy4yt Happy New Year to you as well!
Very interesting problem. I am not a re loader, but I think I stumbled upon a solution to a similar problem I had years ago. I shoot a Winchester 94 Black Shadow, "20 barrel, 44 mag. Accuracy greatly improved as I fired progressively heavier bullets, and different factory brands. This rifle loves 260 gr. bullets, and 300 gr. even more. 320 and 340 gr. hard cast, from Cor bon to Buffalo Bore are also very good in my gun. Hornady 300 gr. are cheaper, and I grab those when I find them. I found the same scenario with my Win. 94 45 colt. And this one loves Buffalo Bore 260 gr. Their 300 gr. loads, when I have them, will shoot a quarter -size group at fifty yards. I will hunt with these guns and this ammo on any planet! Hope my experience is of some use , but thanks for teaching me more!
👍👍 Thanks for watching!
Slug the barrel to see measurements. Use slower burning powders. Not too much else you can do to fix it. 24 inches is likely past peak efficiency with the case volume as well.
Edit: Now that I watched the video it probably would be best to rebarrell. Maybe Rossi will fix??? You could shoot oversize cast bullets but that's a pain.
Do you think a lead hollow based bullet would bump up like they say the mine bullet did in the muzzleloader?
@@tbjtbj4786 Likely but you would incur leading if they were that soft. Different mixes of lead bullets will throw different sizes but it's generally very small differences from my experience.
You have all the information you need now to do some great reloading.
Excellent video! Really shows some details of manufacturing imperfections that are very important specs! Shows that we should check them all out really and not just assume all is as it should be. Very informative! Thank You
George, it will be interesting to hear Rossi's response to your situation. It might also be valuable to slug your other Rossis in different calibers to see their how they compare with their corresponding SAMMI specs. If Rossi won't make the wanted changes for you, in your reloading, you may want to try some softer bullets that would obturate to fill the lands better. If I remember correctly, you had some Berrys plated bullets that worked well with your Marlin, which might be good candidates. For the brass, I would try segregating out the brass from that rifle and not resizing before reloading, which can give you the additional cartridge diameter you need for a proper seal at the breach. I know it can be frustrating to have to load special rounds to get the best performance from individual guns,
but that is a large part of what reloading allows you to do.
Additionally, it would not suprise me to find out that the slower velocities from this gun were in some part due to its longer barrel. In that, your loads may be optimized for the other guns' shorter barrels, and the extra length is just causing drag. A different powder or powder charge might be required to get the best from the longer barrel. I am particularly interested in this project as ,in addition to the 38spl rifle project I have mentioned, I also have a 44mag Marlin 94 with a 24 inch barrel project too, and any insight you garner will help me, when ever I get around to mine. Thanks for sharing your journeys with us!
The idea of using a slower burning pistol powder is spot on. Try a really slow burning (for a pistol) powder. Your current loads might be great for 16" or even 20" but a load for a 24" pcc is invariably a specialty load.
This is pretty much the same advice I would give George, but you stated it more clearly and succinctly than I could have! Let's hope Rossi straightens this out for George.
I was so burned by the .357 "Saddle Ring Carbine" that I've never come back to Rossi. Eighteen inch groups at 50 yards were less than inspiring.
Wow, that's beyond bad!
The unexpected low velocity is a good indicator of an issue, but I’d be more concerned about the oversized bore’s effect on accuracy. Perhaps Rossi is content to let the shooter blame their own eyesight with irons and/or the lack of magnified optics on 100 yard groups. Lever gun notwithstanding, accuracy should be a primary goal.
Thanks for your comment Bud! At a minimum, I will be trying out some oversized cast bullets
I've got a rossi in 44 with the 16inch barrel. It feels like a mares leg with a stock. Luckily mine is in spec and shoots fantastic groups. Sorry you got a bad one
Interesting investigation, but I still think pistol cartridges tend to stop burning powder at about 22", unless you use a slow burning powder. You should scope the rifles just for some accuracy tests. 🎯 BTW, your grandma's sister is your great aunt, so your great grandmother's sister is your great great aunt, if I'm not mistaken.
I think you're right!
I reloaded for a 20" Rossi .44 mag for a long time. I was able to buy .432 reloading bullets on GunBroker. I also worked up a load using slow burning magnum pistol power that would be terrible out of a 4" revolver but were just the thing for a long barreled rifle. In the end I just sold all my .44 stuff because it ended up being a lot more work than it should have been. Companies think that they can use whatever specs that they want for this caliber. I also had a Henry .44 that had an oversized bore so it's not just Rossi.
I appreciate your comment. Especially the part about Henry.
Looks like a job for the bullet caster in you. My old 38/55 wont shoot factory stuff anymore without tumbling but my cast over size bullets bring back the accuracy quite nicely.
Yes sir. I like that plan.
@@TargetSuite did you get my email about this
I've run into this same problem with several rifles and revolvers. Yes, you can deal with the problem in several ways: hollow base bullets, oversized cast bullets, softer cast bullets, etc., but you obviously want to run high performance jacketed or solid copper bullets and none of these solutions are really a good fit for that scenario. I have been right on the verge of buying a Rossi in 44, having looked at ones at various dealers, but now I don't know. I'm awfully glad you posted this at the time you did, and I've decided to hold off my purchase at least until I see how Rossi resolves this with you. Maybe it's only the octagonal barrels?
That's an interesting thought about the octagonal barrels. I certainly have a noticed this issue on any of my other Rossi's. But they are also in 357 Magnum
As usual, love your back ground and your investigations. I have a Rossi 92 .357 and a Henry .357 so I have the best of both worlds. Love them both, but really Love my two Winchester 92's in other calibers including .44
My Marlin 1894 44 magnum slugs out at .4315”, for best accuracy I shoot cast .432” bullets. Jacketed bullets also shoot acceptable groups but cast bullets under .431 leave a lot of lead in the bore, I assume from hot gasses bypassing the seal (I like HARD cast bullets and they don’t obdurate enough to seal if I use the same size bullets I use in my revolver). Which was a bummer. If SAAMI specs 44 magnum rifles at .431 +\- .002 then mine’s in spec. But I sure shot up a lot of cast bullets before I figured out my leading\accuracy problem. Sounds like your Rossi could be out of spec. 24” is an awfully lot of expansion room for a 44 Mag. Ballistics by the inch shows that after about 17 inches velocities start to decrease with the loads tested there.
That is a beautiful rifle. With a groove diameter of 0.434 and you're shooting 0.429 or 0.430 bullets you are going to get blow-by, and if shooting lead bullets, you will get leading. This will probably cause inaccuracy as well. My Rossi 16" stainless steel R92C has a groove diameter of 0.4325. I purchased a NOE bullet mold NOE 434-298-FN-AV2 that throws a 0.434 plain base bullet. I plan to put a plain base gas check on the bullet to minimize leading. I thought about replacing my out of spec barrel with a custom barrel with the proper bore diameter. Your Miroku rifle should shoot .44 magnum pistol bullets accurately and with minimal leading if shooting lead bullets. Good luck with Rossi customer service. I tried and they wouldn't even respond! Another great video, George.
Thanks Roy! It's great to hear from you! I will be ordering some oversized cast bullets, probably from Montana Bullet Works.
George, I so enjoy watching your videos. Brings back such fond memories of your family and it also reminds me some of my dad. He loved a good rifle. Michele (Williamson) Johnson.
Great to hear from you, Michele! Thank you for the comment!
Love Glocks, Love 1911's, love 92F's....LOVE my Henry 44mag.
As you're youtube counterpart says....life is good.
Yes, life IS good!
You could reload with hollow base bullets for better expansion and more contact with the rifling.
Almost bought a Rossi 92, thanx for sharing this info.
I have the same rifle. It’s bore slugged at .433”. Jacketed bullets pattern not group. I ordered a .436 mold and run bullets thru a Lee sizing die that I reamed to .435. Good luck with Rossi’s customer service. At best they’ll ask you to send it back, twelve weeks later, they’ll return it and say it’s within their specs. It’s a common problem with this rifle. Have you checked out the Rossi Rifleman forum? Lotsa knowledgeable folks , no “experts”.
Thanks! I appreciate your comment!
That is absolutely nuts. 5 thousandths oversize is way too much. I'm not even sure how you do that with modern machinery.
I was planning to get a .357 Rossi to go with my .38-55 Winchester and .44 Henry. Now, I’m not so sure, especially considering the Rossi .357 has a very slow twist rate, which would limit heavy bullet use.
Try purchasing a bullet mold from MP molds when you go on their website you can find bullets 434 diameter you can then load these bullets and try them to see if you get better accuracy and velocity.
If you want to shoot them in the Winchester you can size them to 430.
I have a mold from this company that is a 255 grain solid or a 240 grain hollow point that I can put a gas check on.
Ps.
With that bore diameter you need to be careful shooting cath lead projectiles that are not properly sized for it with the gas passing by the projectile you will get leading.
Standing tall in front of a .44 magnum is a testament to the awesome power of Diet Mtn. Dew.
Gas escape may be part of the issue, but I would suspect that lower peak pressure as the bullet hits the throat and starts the engraving process is the bigger issue. You have to have that pressure spike you are not getting close to that 36,000 peak pressure limit with out initial resistance of the bullet hitting the rifling and slowing it down. That's how a reloader can up velocity by pushing a bullet out and touching the lands. (so long as the distance is not increasing powder capacity by a large percentage) The base of that bullet (even a copper) will obturate to seal gas most of the time and it takes only a small distance. Look at a gas check they are not very tall. Good Video as always.
Have the rifling tooled, any action tuned. They are built with plenty of ignition leaks. Shims and seals are required to get to the next level of the Winchester 1873
Slow burning powders with 180gr xtp should be smoking
Thanks for another very informative and interesting video. I'm anxious to find out what Rossi says. It's always fun for me to see how much fun YOU have just shooting lots of different and always beautiful guns! Keep 'em coming!
Thanks! Lord willing I'll keep pumping them out. Of course only as long as the ideas and money flow😄
If I didnt know better I'd swear I was reading about load development for a flint or caplock weapon. Minus the discussion of patch thickness of course. But bullet / ball dia to accommodate barrel differences is very similar.
Great video. I got the Henry Big boy 44.... It will not group at all with the Underwood 245 grain bullet. But loves the Underwood 240 hollow points....
I had the same issue with a new marlin 44 mag 430 diameter bullets were keyholing .after research I found this is common rifle sammich specs.are different than pistol.i slugged my barrel and I shoot 433 diameter bullets with great success.
Thanks for your comment. I also had problems with two different 1894s and sold them both before I discovered the rifles spec. The other problem with those older Marlins is the twist rate of the barrel. I can't wait for the new 1894 offering from ruger. Should be coming up in the next month or so
So literally every theory I had said previously has been proven true. Only one not addressed is burn rate in relation too barrel length. Not able to be addressed in an overbooked rifle. You have two cheaper solutions. A. Get mold made with larger bullet diameters of (if I remember correctly the numbers of .434. Or B. Lead hollow base bullets in effect function the same way as the minnie bullet does. Allowing the expanding gases to expand the skirt of the bullet to form to the barrel. This isn't an uncommon thing to come across. I have seen many times in other platforms as well.
Thanks for your comment. I suspect that oversized bullets are the future for this rossi.
I honestly hope Rossi takes care of you. From their past customer service It very well may end up being a headache. Things may be different with having a bit of exposure your channel brings. I've been on Rossi and Taurus forums for a decade and their customer service was really pretty bad. It seemed as if almost daily there would be someone with substantial issues with their service making a thread. Oddball models would take eons to get sorted and replaced or they would brush you off. That being said.. I do have several of their Lever actions and I am glad i never had to deal with them. I did have many issues with Taurus though. I had hoped things would have changed for the better with their move to Georgia. There is still some headaches though it seems.
I am very interested to see what Rossi has to say. They will need to replace the barrel to remedy the problem, not an easy or cheap fix.
I think when I select the Rossi I buy (if I still do), I'm going to follow a procedure I follow when looking at military surplus rifles. I'll take along a correct sized bullet (not loaded ammo) and see how far down on the ogive the muzzle engages the bullet. If it is a really nice dealer, I'll borrow a loaded round. This gives a pretty good idea of how much rifling engagement you'll have. If it's my bullet and the dealer doesn't object, I will twist the bullet to score a mark all the way around the bullet. Blackening the ogive first with a black felt marker will make the engraving show up better. At least now I know to be on the lookout.
That would work.
interesting for sure, fun as always
Wow those bullets were eye opening. I've thought I might like to have one of those Rossi's but now I'm not sure. Hopefully it's just one that got through. That's too fine a rifle design for any such if it's wide spread.
👊👊
@@TargetSuite Georges rifle is not one that got through. See my comment above about a Rossi R92C .44 mag. When I received the rifle it wouldn't even load rounds through the loading gate! 😡
@@royseifert3078 if John Browning were here he'd be going to Brazil to go full Col. Sanders on somebody for screwing his stuff up.
Didn't read all the comments but a hard cast oversize bullet say .432 with a gas check may be the answer, will not solve your velocity issue without risk of leading barrel bit should tighten up groups considerably. I load my Marlin with 300gr hard cast with no gas check and they are accurate hit very hard and no leading issues. Slower than full bore loaded 240 gr. jhp but penetrate very well and are accurate out of my Micro groove barrel. Maybe Rossi will take care of the issue and all will be well. Love your videos George.
Thank you! I like your suggestion of oversized cast bullets. That's probably where I will wind up.
Sorry for the oversized bore, a very beutiful gun, wood, blued steel, octagon barrel, aaaahw. If You load with a slightly bigger bullet, will the pressure in the other gun be to much? Just if Rossi to not make it right.
Wow, that’s crazy. Good work, I like lever actions. I have an old old M94 carbine in 32 Winchester. Excellent info, thanks.
Thanks. I also have an old model 94 in 32 Winchester special. I need to get that gun out and let it see the light of day.
Years ago I had a Browning(Miroku) model 96 in 44mag, and a 10 inch barrelled Thompson/Center Contender also in 44mag. The model 96 would not hit steel plates with the authority that the Contender generated. I didn't investigate as thoroughly as you did, but I hand-load, and eventually found some slower burning powder that improved the energy of the rifle, but it never did generate anything close to the power of the pistol.
Interesting.
@@TargetSuite 'Baffled me! I eventually sold the rifle and used the contender for many years for whitetail hunting. It was light, easy to manipulate in a tree stand, and absolutely deadly on deer.
With the Rossi, you can use a larger cast bullet, .430 or .431 instead of the .429. I'd think . 431 should be enough giving you .002 or more into the lands, or you can cast and swedge your own.
Yep. I like that idea! Thanks!
@@TargetSuite if you slug the bore and send me the bore Diameter, I'll see if I can't size you up a few just to check and see how they'd shoot.
Morning George! Great content as always! Is using a .431-.432 slug an option? Seems I remember a Hickok45 video from many, many years ago where he had a Marlin(?) that he used oversized slugs in. Fun times with family!! BUL makes some outstanding firearms. I hope you have a great weekend!
I remember that video as well. It seems a lot more common that rifles are slightly oversized compared to revolvers.
@@rileyneufeld7001 Absolutely. I think thenew Henry models are more in line with the revolvers. My Henry X 44 magnum is the same as my Smith revolver.
I have the same rifle in 357Mag. Slower burning magnum powders give great velocities. 180gr XTP @ 1450fps. The build quality on these Rossi's is not great but you get what you pay for. My rifle is very accurate and consistent. I would not buy another and would rather go for a Marlin or Henry.
You shoot the G19 very well. I would hate to be the bad guy in that scenario lol. Maybe do a video of those levers on the table next time? Look forward to our visit today.
It was a great visit Max! Thanks for the pumpkin pie and thanks for the ammo!
@@TargetSuite My pleasure George. Hope you didn't get into any storms the rest of the way home.
That is a very scientific summary thank you. Be interested how this works out with 12 gauge and sabot slugs? I heard an interesting but unrelated argument that ‘wide/fat’ bullets are less impacted by barrel length than ‘smaller / skinnier’ bullets (eg 44 mag vs 223). But I am not sure of the science behind that. Thanks for sharing and all your great work! Cheers Dave 🇺🇸 🇳🇿
Thanks Dave!
Its been my understanding that pistol caliber rifles stop benefiting from extra length after 16-18” bbl’s. They start to loose velocity because of the excessive friction, drag of extra length, after all these are pistol calibers. Now I have no clue on loading your own, and effects as far as that goes. Factory ammo has to be safe for ALL pistols, revolvers, that take said cartridge. Just my thinking, thats all, just MY thinking, I have been wrong.
Well you do bring up a good point. And for ammo that is designed to be shot in a short barrel handgun there will not be much benefit if any at all with a longer barrel. But I know some manufacturers, and certainly this hand loader, try to optimize loads for the longer barrel.
Forgive me if you have, but please slug your other caliber Rossi R92's - 45 Colt and .357 Mag and post that up when you can. Thanks!! This explains why the 44 Rossi's like oversized cast bullets.
Not many people pay attention to that, the more expensive the rifle is the better the rifling will be. I have a Marlin 256 micro Groove Barrel the rifling he's very small but very tight and very accurate. Weatherby has some of the best rifling consistency out there, but you pay for that.
The Rossi's performance is certainly substandard, hope you can show this to Rossi and they give you a new barrel
I wonder if they cut the bore and lands for the Cowboy Action crowd. I'm pretty sure most of those folks shoot hollow base lead bullets. The hollow base would expand to make better contact with the rifling. Just an idea.
Pistol caliber, i thought of this when i was considering a 24" rossi, i always goggle "ballistics by the inch" and they've already tested every calibers velocity at every inch to see the best barrel lenth, most 44mag bullets are at max velocity at 16" any longer and your only adding mag capacity.
Thanks for your comment. What you say would be true for ammunition that is loaded for a revolver. But I try to optimize all of my ammo for a longer barrel. And a couple of the loads that I shot in my "Disappointed" video gained over 170 ft per second out of the Rossi long barrel. So there's more to the question than what is addressed on that website.
@Target Suite it seems the hot loaded heavier weight bullets gain more than light bullets with longer barrels. We chronographed my 20" against a 24" and the velocities where almost identical but the longer the barrel the more a lever gun holds and that is never a bad thing.
I would disagree with you on your statement at ~11:50 that the oversized chamber is “not a big deal”, it actually is, but over time, here’s why, when back pressure gas from combustion builds behind the projectile as it travels forward through the barrel tube it ideally should have a tight chamber seal behind it to maximize the ‘work’ of efficiency on increasing the velocity of the projectile. When gas can escape around the cartridge case in the chamber at very high pressure a phenomenon called ‘gas cutting’ begins to occur. At first it may seem to be ‘not a problem’, but over the course of time and the firing of many, many rounds each shot discharged cuts a little more material away. If you are primarily shooting brass cartridges the brass is softer and being the weaker of the two mating surfaces it acts like a sacrificial anode on a salt water boat engine and loses material sooner than the hardened steel of the chamber and bolt face. Modern steel properties are considerably more advanced and better than brass, iron and steels of 150 years ago when lever rifles from Henry and Winchester were in their infancy. Black powder and early smokeless powders were much more corrosive then, so manifestations of corrosion and gas cutting were more prevalent and pronounced than the effects of smokeless powders of modern times. However, physics haven’t changed.
If using nickel plated cases the effects are slowed somewhat than plain brass, but the pathway around the casing begins to show sooner. Would you ever see actual physical signs of such a phenomenon? Yes, you kind of already are, but more so because the lands and grooves are out of spec, too. The effects would be much more pronounced if the chamber alone were oversized and the barrel cut was spec or even slightly undersized, thusly driving a greater quantity and at higher pressure toward and around the bolt face, locking mechanism and your premium face parts, hence why eye pros are mandatory! Could an overcharged or purposely hot rodded .44Mag round break the locking mechanism of a modern steel action? Anything is speculatively possible. Is it likely, such as on old, original brass framed Henry’s, W1866’s, 73’s or up to 1892 models with hot loads? Not really, but as long as that possibility is there.......
We ask a lot of our firearms, machinists, designers and QA folks usually deliver above and beyond performance for us, especially noticeable under the most extreme conditions of operations, such as on a mountain peak of a ‘trip of a lifetime’ shot opportunity on a Dall ram or mountain goat a thousand yards away, or staring down some sort of dangerous game that bites, fights, stomps or gores a hunter whose firearm or ammunition fails them at the worst possible time. Of such are born legends and sad memories, I’d rather be the legend. It tends to hurt less.
Someone at Rossi failed their company and their customers by allowing an obviously oversized, out of spec barrel thru QA and out the door. It wasn’t their best work done conscientiously that day. Someone in QA signed off on it and let it out the door and unfortunately you drew that purchase. Money is valuable, but one’s reputation more so, so if I was Rossi’s management or head of their customer service, I’d be wanting that one back to refit a properly machined barrel to it, certainly before word spread too far. Just out of curiosity, have you checked and compared your daughter’s rifle to yours?
That's a great comment! And thank you. I have not checked my daughter's rifle but I have checked my 20-in 357 Rossi against my miroku Winchester 20-in and they were very similar and much closer to the spec.
24" is too much drag for fast burning revolver cartridges. 20" is as good as your likely to get in most cases. After 20" inches there is no increase in acceleration. The extra length is extra drag. Leverevolution ammo may help. On the bright side the 24" carbine could double as a cain fishing pole.
Your right on and you have to remember there's not that much powder going down a 24 inch barrel!
Wow that is interesting information and you did a great job of IDing the problem. It will be interesting to hear what Rossi says.
On the other hand you shot the Glock lights out!
It sounds like you're getting quite a bit of gas blow by and because you're shooting basically pistol cartridges in a rifle barrel the gunpowder's burn rate is much faster. Re-barreling to a Saami specs bore and loading cartridges using a slow er burn rate powder should fix the problem.
Hopfully Rossi helps you out, I have a couple Rossi's as you do, 24 in 45 colt and a 20in 45 colt, both accurate.
If they don't look after you, as some have suggested, cast bullets .002 in over groove dia. will fix it up as far as accuracy and fps gos. Good luck.
That really tells a story.
Hope Rossi cares
hmm. I think as the powder in case is rather fast type of powder, the powder has already burned before the bullet exits the barrel. Because of this extra inches of barrel only provide friction and thus slow the bullet down. I'd go for slower powder, say Vihtavuori 140 or thereabouts to get longer burntime and more velocity.
Bill Ruger did tests and determined that 18.5" was optimal for the .44mag cartridge. Which is why the Ruger .44mag autoloader had that length tube.
With some powders and some combinations, I'm sure that is true. But it is not a universal truth because I found two loads that showed a 170+ foot per second increase in muzzle velocity with the 24" barrel Rossi over the 20" barrel Winchester. I documented that in my "Disappointed" video.
For a .22 long rifle the barrel length that is usually the fastest is 16 to 18 inches. Barrels longer than that are often slower because there isn't enough powder to keep pushing the bullet. A .44 magnum is really a pistol round and you may be running into the same thing. The fast burning, by rifle standards, powder might not be able to overcome the large bore size for a 24 inch barrel
Thanks for your comment. That is certainly conventional wisdom. And there may be some truth to it, actually I'm sure there is. But two of the that I tried we're over 170 feet per second faster out of the rossi. So, I think there's going to be a combination that will yield increased velocity. But that's just a theory right now. More work to do . . .
It's a non- issue if you reload your ammo. Size some cast lead 0.0015" over.
If you don't reload, it's a serious issue.
I have an R92 in 44 mag that's oversized as well. Not quite so much as yours, but close. I've never chronographed it so I can't speak to the issue of velocity, but it cycles perfectly and is very accurate with both factory ammo and my reloads.
Great video! Love your channel, keep it up!!!
Thanks! It won't be an issue as I am reloading all the time.
There is a fair variation in aftermarket bullet casters, both plain and jacketed. Some micrometer work may find a suitable projectile manufacturer.
I am new to shooting and reloading and your theory makes perfect sense. Is there a difference in barrel length between the two bonds is the Rossi Barrel longer? My understanding is pistol powders burn faster than rifle powders if you have grooves on the bullets it's still making contact not as much but it still is so it should seal pistol powders burn much faster and with a longer Barrel could provide drag on the bullet that's why rifle barrels use rifle powder burn slower as a goes down the barrel creating power
Might be that the next thing we’ll hear is the tale of your adventures with paper-patched mono-metal bullets. To be honest, oversized cast bullets, with or without the paper-patch might be a simpler, easier project.
The only Rossi ‘92 clone I’ve tried was a .45 Colt purchased about a quarter of a century ago. It shoots straight, but is very finicky about feeding, as in semi-wadcutters need not apply. 🤔
Haha!
Thank you sir for these informations! From France!
I've got an older 1892. There isn't a sharp area on it besides a spot on the bolt that you typically would never touch. The wood is way more beautiful on it as well
You may not see this, however, you didn’t “slug” your barrel. You made a casting of the end. With that said, the casting material shrinks, so that it is easily removed from the chamber. So if you are oversized with material that shrinks (slightly), it is even worse.
To “slug” the barrel, push a lubricated round ball of pure lead through the barrel. Once it gets started, it will slide down by pushing with a cleaning rod, providing you lightly oiled the bore and the ball. I see that a .433 ball will be too small, and the next size commonly available will be .440 or .445. I suggest a rubber mallet, and then a short piece of 3/8” dowel to get it started (if you had to do it over).
Hope Rossi fixes it for you, i’m about to buy one of those lever actions, in 45 Colt, so i really hope they make it right.
This is the first video, of yours,that i’ve seen, and it was very enjoyable, Thank You.
I used lead egg shaped fishing weights. The hole in the middle allows some room for crush. Cerrosafe, I’ve read, does shrink in time but at a calculable rate.
Thanks for your comments. But I actually used Cerro-Tru to "slug" these rifles. It expands on cooling, unlike CerroSafe, and lead alloys. So, it renders a very accurate "slug" that has to be tapped out with purpose.
I own 3 Rossi 44 mag's The 2 older one's are 428.5 grove diameter give or take a few thousands. One is a 16 inch and the other is a 20 inch. The other one was bought in 2022 24 inch the grove diameter on it is .429. I guess I got lucky 3 times. My marlin is .433 grove diameter all my Rossi's out shot the marlin.
Any update? Did Rossi replace your rifle? I have a .357 magnum unit, but I haven't shot it much. I might have to see how it groups now.
Sorry George. It’s not just Rossi. Mike Verturino wrote an article once on the 73 original Winchester and consistent barrel dimensions, way back then, were hard to come by. Then trying to mate one with a properly dimensioned Colt SAA that both would shoot the same ammo was more or less fiction. Marlin suffered the same issue back in the 70’s and 80’s with the 94 44 mag too.
I have six ‘ugly’ glocks, never had a single problem, never had to send one back.
Well I have certainly experienced the dark ages of marlin 1894. It's refreshing to know that it was a known problem. As for my glock experience, I have to say it was enlightening to say the least. It just felt great in the hand. Nothing like I have experienced in the past when I just held someone else's Glock.
I have had one for years there are some bullet shaped that do not feed well. The .44 levereveltion ammo comes to mind.
I thought that was made for the lever gun though? Did you have problems with it feeding?
Nice video
I would cast .433 or .434 and load them
A number of mold makers will provide over sized molds , NOE Bullet Moulds will
You shouldn't have to
But I bet your gun is not the only one with a over sized barrel
My experience with Rossi customer service has been a difficult and totally unhelpful. You must repair or finish building any R92 that you purchase.
I bought a Rossi R92 in 357 cal. so this must be why the casings are so dirty! Oh well, I have the rifle now, might as well "shut up and shoot" I guess.
My Winchester / Miroku is in 45 Colt, and it is a noticeably better shooter. ( I guess i got what paid for.)
It sounds trite, but you are right. And everyone can't afford to have multiple guns, much less with a few of those being very nice Miroku Winchesters. My dream gun right now is a 24 inch 44 magnum from Winchester. They're a little bit pricey, but that is one sweet firearm.
Sporting Arms an Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) specs groove dimensions for .44 mag pistol to be .429 and rifle .431”. My 24” 92 barrel is .002” oversized.
And mine .003". Thanks foe your comment!
I think I'll keep my Henry, made in America and made right!!! You spelled Beretta as Baretta........ my 92x was made right here in Tennessee, lovely shooting pistol
Good catch! I need to fire my video editor. Oh wait, that's me😉
Maaaaybe, if I moved things around I could fit a lever .44 Mag in there. I got a S&W 629 years ago (and its a gem) and just starting buying ammo :-/ Been thinking...I need a lever-44 ever since.
Cast bullets , then run through a sizer , if Rossi will not comply !
PS. Maybe some guys would like to see you shoot some semi auto pistols let’s say every 3 rd time you chose to film , ballistic gel, results would be very nice also , just a suggestion, take care, hello to the whole family George !
Nice meeting your cousin, cool pistols !
Hans I think you are right. I really need to add more pistol content. But then maybe I need to add more pistols also, pistols of the semi-auto variety that is😉
Rossis are made with an eye toward under-cutting the competition for price. My guess is quality control is looser, and flaws need to be worse than yours before that rifle goes back for re-work. Also the gun market is hot right now, which is still more incentive to get that thing shipped.
My rossi .44magnum stainless 16 inch carbine measures. .4315 so I have to load my own ammo with .432 diameter bullets. it works great with the big bullets.
Have been thinking about getting a Rossi in 44 Mag. After watching your video I am not at all happy about the large bore dimensions, your sample bullet spoke a thousand words? As the barrel ages the accuracy is bound to deteriorate. I suppose you could reload with oversized cast lead bullets, but then you might have chambering problems if the brass is too thick? Now I think I’ll just have to wait for the new Marlin 94’s to hit my local gun shop.
I was thinking about getting a Rossi 44 mag also to complement my Ruger super Blackhawk 44 mag… unfortunate and disappointing #RossiUSA