The thing I think you guys is about writing is that a writing does is it allows up to keep a record, but oral traditions have been around before scriptures and writings. Knowledge can be shared through stories, and apprenticeship that’s how priestly classes worked before the printing press.
There were several "Venus" figurines that predate agriculture and cities. We know of one religious site, Göbekli Tepe, that was built by nomads in Turkey. It dates back to at most 9,000 BCE.
@@ALotOfCancer I’m confused how do you smooth wood with rocks unless you mean sand paper lol also I used sandpaper last week you act like it’s ancient technology
I think y'all in the comments have to realize they aren't being historically accurate and that's fine. Accept it for what it is and rather than saying "X is so stupid" instead try something like "did you know Y". None of these guys are historians - interpret the episode as something more like a reflection of the everyday persons idea of history
As someone who did really well in Social Studies I thought they were ok. They said pretty much everything you would expect from these guys, nothing to be mad about.
@@cassu6 The Inca were around for only 100 years before they got fucked by Spanish plagues. I don't think you can conclude a society has hit a bottleneck when they only existed a century
It was called the dark ages because there aren’t good records of what happened in that time. People kept inventing things we just don’t know who or where because they didn’t preserve records as well.
Iron changed everything, there is nothing in the world we did without iron anymore. Transport, housing, tools, mass food production, cooking, everything is unimaginable without the understanding to work iron.
Mysticism is very interesting. In a way it led to Spiritualism. That is something I think Pyrion was trying to explain. Going beyond just reacting to cultural belief, but defining and practicing or codifying.
You guys need to to listen to 99 percent invisible. They did an episode recently called "Nuts and Bolts" where they talk about the first wheel (it was actually a pottery wheel) and the gap in time from pottery wheel to spoked wheel etc
i mean i think the question you have to ask is who all this stuff benefits. most of it is built on colonialism and exploitation so is it progress for humanity or is it progress for the west? is it progress at all? it’s like the handmaid’s tale said “better doesn’t mean better for everyone”
I absolutely agree, but I would just say, "the west" is a pretty outdated classification at this point, it's code for wealthy, exploitative countries, but not all of these countries are Western in this day and age. It's definitely semantics, but I do think it's an important distinction.
gotta say, Lewis‘ take on nomadic people being extremely violent is really stupid. do you think anyone would have survived at all if they where constantly trying to kill each other. they had alot more pressing matters like food and water in nomadic times. also they didn’t have a bunch of expendable warriors hanging around waiting for a conflict. if there was intertribal war it was about food. as there wern‘t alot of people back then there was more a notion of staying out of each other’s way and as they were nomadic anyway that was pretty easy. large scale conflict became a thing when people started to settle down, as suddenly you have territory that belongs to you and anyone who is in it can potentially be unwelcome.
The point you bring up about the scarcity of food and water is the where the reasoning comes from. There was fierce competition for these resources and if you ran into another tribe you knew that one of the tribes would have to die or move on as there often wasn't enough food for all. Being that moving on would lead to starvation till you got to the next area with enough food, fighting was often the result.
We're not talking about war here. He's talking about more semi-animalistic tribalism. Your tribe bumps into another tribe, you kill the strangers before they kill you.
I had to take the time to think about it an remembered that it's believed that the nomads were also extremely dependent on the migratory herds that they followed and hunted, those were their equivalent of territory, and if another tribe starts hunting them it could lead to the loss of your most key food source.
Its evidenced by the tools/weapons (bronze and stone) they find dated throughout the bronze age, in the early bronze age there was more tools found and as the bronze age went on more and more swords and spears are found, also they find that as the bronze age progressed more and more enclosed farms and walled hill forts are found. This hints at the idea that pre bronze age peoples lived relatively peacefully or they just beat each other with their fists, i could site this but its a youtube comment
@@keepyourselfsafe1386 Ancient Greek neuroscience is often stated as science even though it's entirely inaccurate and based on complete bullshit. Modern religion and modern science are obviously vastly different in accuracy, but ancient religion and ancient science were often basically the same thing, and are often distunguished in a eurocentric way.
In general, I think anything that increases communication is huge, because it enables/accelerates most other progression. But I have to agree that penicillin is generally more important than advanced technology, because if people are constantly dying young, they aren't spending as much time developing technology, and they don't have as much opportunity to benefit from it.
Nerd voice... Umm actually Mysticism was in Civ 4, as were other religious 'techs' such as monotheism and polytheism. In Civ V they pulled religion out of the tech tree into its own separate game mechanic.
Medieval period did not begin in the year 0. That's when some of the more interesting stories of the Roman Empire come from. Medieval period is widely considered to be after the fall of the western Roman empire, roughly 476 AD
11:10 cities and record keeping and the concept of commerce and animal husbandry and irrigation and pottery and thus the collectivization of wealth and the need for armies etc came from beer
Sumeria was as ancient to the Egyptians as Egypt was ancient to the Greeks and Romans. One of the earliest forms of written language was cuniform from Sumeria, and one of the earliest examples of THAT was a receipt for beer, as part of payment for labor. That tells you that BEER, is one of the most important discoveries of the ancient world. Well... I mean I guess it also shows they had math, agriculture, organized labor, etc too...
There would have probably been some kind of spiritualism in hunter gather society, but religion as we typically experience it today probably arose with settlement.
@Cameron Cook pyrion? The man who we all just heard say that nomadic people couldn't be and weren't religious? He knows what he's talking about? What could we possibly be talking about?
Lewis's idea of tribal humans is a bit overexaggerated and comes from trying to make modern humans seem more sanitized. We can learn a lot from how they probably acted by seeing how first nations and American Indians acted, where the majority of warfare or fighting between tribes would be because some members of one tribe wandered into another's territory (thus threatening their own food security until they migrate to another area), or from more advanced tribes that have settled down it would be revenge killings between families or clans. There were of course conventional war between tribes, especially some of the tribes with agriculture and settled towns, but then every type of society since has had war, so framing them as more violent seems disingenious, after all they are the exact same species as us just with a different set of material reality.
I feel the need to also clarify that I do not think they are saints, or "noble savages" or anything of the sort. Just felt like Lewis was being unfair by saying they were "extremely violent"
@Sheo completely agree with you. I just read a book on the Mongols, and they had complex social structures and relationships between clans. Nomadic peoples don't get enough credit for important they were for human development. The silk road, for example, was crucial for the spread of ideas, innovation and technology.
Pflax really thinks people weren't religios, then were later? LOL? what sips said about writing being a result of religion is ACTUALLY TRUE. they draw the line at Mesopotamia with cuneiform as it has an alphabet, vowels, and is mostly based on one form of language in one area. (runes for examples are pretty loose because they come from a language that was found ALL OVER northern europe, western asia and england- and runes came thousands of years after cuneiform) and MOST of the writings are religious text, i think the only exceptions being things like charters and records from merchants, things like a note that says "sold bob 2 sheep for 5 pieces of bronze" and recipes for general goods like wine and bread and even before that- MOST writings, art, statues, trinkets, baubles, ANY type of artistic expression were religious. even the thing pyrion was talking about with the numbers in the cave is probably religious based. "god of bows says its good to hunt at this time" or "must kill this many deers for my god" or whatever edit to add- man, pyrion is really uneducated lol. burials are a big part of religion but again, almost everything was religious since the birth of humanity man. there is evidence that even human ancestors buried their dead, or at least covered them with flowers and stuff (and religions grew from the differences in burials across the world, some did mummies, some did bog burials, sky burials, ocean pyres burning, etc) AND GUESS WHAT PFLAX? ELEPHANTS BURY THEIR DEAD, AND DO FUNERALS TOO. The elephant's family will surround the grave, drop flowers on it, and mourn. There is videos of this all over the place, I seriously dunno how pflax knows bout ants but not elephants doing this
Well imaging rome as cleaner is accurate. They had more slaves than citizens, so their slaves just cleaned everything. Just because it wasn't as dirty doesn't mean they are more advanced. Rome is a despicable culture, those "barbarians" who defeated them were the true revolutionaries
Didn't the triangles used to move their "mouths"? I miss the attention to detail. EDIT: My mistake. It seems they only stop around the end of the video.
There was always a wealth disparity, but it wasn't the 1% back in the day, it was the 0.01%. The fact that the average person that isn't born into a high station has even a chance of earning anything above minimum wage in the modern era is quite the contrast to how it used to be. Our homeless people are living it up compared to the vagrants back then.
There are some days I regret becoming a historian. Love you lads lmao
Seriously no love for Sips with the "What if the first person to ride a horse did it as a joke?" bit?
Biggest laugh I've had in WEEKS
I haven't listened yet, but MAN, you just know it's going to be a good episode when this many people are correcting them in the comments.
Times like this i think of that episode where they said they wish people would just comment "lol"
The thing I think you guys is about writing is that a writing does is it allows up to keep a record, but oral traditions have been around before scriptures and writings. Knowledge can be shared through stories, and apprenticeship that’s how priestly classes worked before the printing press.
Ahh finally, a T force to listen to whilst I suck on ze werters original
When people talk about the invention of the wheel they generally mean the invention of the axle.
There were several "Venus" figurines that predate agriculture and cities. We know of one religious site, Göbekli Tepe, that was built by nomads in Turkey. It dates back to at most 9,000 BCE.
Sips thinking ROCKS are easier to smooth .... then WOOD ... 🤣
Definitely the most interesting thing I've heard him say recently
Vigorously rubs wood with sand paper for an hour
Turns handle on rock tumbler for 5 minutes
Wood is just long wheels
then wood, what?
@@ALotOfCancer I’m confused how do you smooth wood with rocks unless you mean sand paper lol also I used sandpaper last week you act like it’s ancient technology
I think y'all in the comments have to realize they aren't being historically accurate and that's fine. Accept it for what it is and rather than saying "X is so stupid" instead try something like "did you know Y". None of these guys are historians - interpret the episode as something more like a reflection of the everyday persons idea of history
As someone who did really well in Social Studies I thought they were ok. They said pretty much everything you would expect from these guys, nothing to be mad about.
Most incoherent podcast yet boys! Well done.
The Flintstones being used as historical reference is very Karl Pilkington and it's a rare vibe
They need to do more episodes like this, it fuels so much activity in the comments. Probably pretty good for the algorithm
Flax forgetting that the Ancient Aztec and Incan built a large and successful civilization without any horses.
Well but tbf they really hit a bottleneck compared to the rest of the world.
And olmecs I think
@@cassu6 The Inca were around for only 100 years before they got fucked by Spanish plagues. I don't think you can conclude a society has hit a bottleneck when they only existed a century
It was called the dark ages because there aren’t good records of what happened in that time. People kept inventing things we just don’t know who or where because they didn’t preserve records as well.
Archers were arguably inferior to slingers until the invention of the recurve bow.
Iron changed everything, there is nothing in the world we did without iron anymore. Transport, housing, tools, mass food production, cooking, everything is unimaginable without the understanding to work iron.
The dark ages is a big misnomer. And even if that did apply it was only to Europe.
It applies best to Great Britain. Civilisation here really took a kicking in the wake of Roman retreat from the island
Mysticism is very interesting. In a way it led to Spiritualism. That is something I think Pyrion was trying to explain. Going beyond just reacting to cultural belief, but defining and practicing or codifying.
You guys need to to listen to 99 percent invisible. They did an episode recently called "Nuts and Bolts" where they talk about the first wheel (it was actually a pottery wheel) and the gap in time from pottery wheel to spoked wheel etc
Whoever make the thumbnails deserves a raise
i mean i think the question you have to ask is who all this stuff benefits. most of it is built on colonialism and exploitation so is it progress for humanity or is it progress for the west? is it progress at all? it’s like the handmaid’s tale said “better doesn’t mean better for everyone”
Very true
I absolutely agree, but I would just say, "the west" is a pretty outdated classification at this point, it's code for wealthy, exploitative countries, but not all of these countries are Western in this day and age. It's definitely semantics, but I do think it's an important distinction.
@@Shosty global north primarily
gotta say, Lewis‘ take on nomadic people being extremely violent is really stupid. do you think anyone would have survived at all if they where constantly trying to kill each other. they had alot more pressing matters like food and water in nomadic times. also they didn’t have a bunch of expendable warriors hanging around waiting for a conflict. if there was intertribal war it was about food. as there wern‘t alot of people back then there was more a notion of staying out of each other’s way and as they were nomadic anyway that was pretty easy. large scale conflict became a thing when people started to settle down, as suddenly you have territory that belongs to you and anyone who is in it can potentially be unwelcome.
how are you so sure?
The point you bring up about the scarcity of food and water is the where the reasoning comes from. There was fierce competition for these resources and if you ran into another tribe you knew that one of the tribes would have to die or move on as there often wasn't enough food for all. Being that moving on would lead to starvation till you got to the next area with enough food, fighting was often the result.
We're not talking about war here. He's talking about more semi-animalistic tribalism. Your tribe bumps into another tribe, you kill the strangers before they kill you.
I had to take the time to think about it an remembered that it's believed that the nomads were also extremely dependent on the migratory herds that they followed and hunted, those were their equivalent of territory, and if another tribe starts hunting them it could lead to the loss of your most key food source.
Its evidenced by the tools/weapons (bronze and stone) they find dated throughout the bronze age, in the early bronze age there was more tools found and as the bronze age went on more and more swords and spears are found, also they find that as the bronze age progressed more and more enclosed farms and walled hill forts are found. This hints at the idea that pre bronze age peoples lived relatively peacefully or they just beat each other with their fists, i could site this but its a youtube comment
Pflax doesnt think nomadic native Americans had religion
Yeah we've definitely always had religion, that was our science. We needed an explanation as to why the sun disappeared and shit.
@@ALotOfCancer It's not really science if they didn't do any science
@James Gazeley science is a belief system so to speak
@@Hollow5999 I mean, I guess. But it's a belief system based on independently verifiable facts.
@@keepyourselfsafe1386 Ancient Greek neuroscience is often stated as science even though it's entirely inaccurate and based on complete bullshit. Modern religion and modern science are obviously vastly different in accuracy, but ancient religion and ancient science were often basically the same thing, and are often distunguished in a eurocentric way.
Next podcat needs to be about bats. All about bats is all you need to discuss
As a member who has listened to you since day 1, I thiuthought id have a greater influence than most
Yes it needs to be something more simple so they can be less debilitatingly wrong about everything lmao
In general, I think anything that increases communication is huge, because it enables/accelerates most other progression. But I have to agree that penicillin is generally more important than advanced technology, because if people are constantly dying young, they aren't spending as much time developing technology, and they don't have as much opportunity to benefit from it.
Sick episode boys 🎉
Nerd voice... Umm actually Mysticism was in Civ 4, as were other religious 'techs' such as monotheism and polytheism. In Civ V they pulled religion out of the tech tree into its own separate game mechanic.
Medieval period did not begin in the year 0. That's when some of the more interesting stories of the Roman Empire come from. Medieval period is widely considered to be after the fall of the western Roman empire, roughly 476 AD
476AD is in itself a problematic date - which makes defining the medieval period even harder.
11:10 cities and record keeping and the concept of commerce and animal husbandry and irrigation and pottery and thus the collectivization of wealth and the need for armies etc came from beer
Sumeria was as ancient to the Egyptians as Egypt was ancient to the Greeks and Romans. One of the earliest forms of written language was cuniform from Sumeria, and one of the earliest examples of THAT was a receipt for beer, as part of payment for labor. That tells you that BEER, is one of the most important discoveries of the ancient world. Well... I mean I guess it also shows they had math, agriculture, organized labor, etc too...
Had a shit day, this cheered me up. Thanks boys!
There would have probably been some kind of spiritualism in hunter gather society, but religion as we typically experience it today probably arose with settlement.
I loved this episode good one boys
We desperately need an "Ug and Mug" compilation from someone.
Love the thumbnail 😊
Pyrions caveman voice is Arnold Swartzenegger
It's that time!
Did the render mess up at some point and the mouths just stopped moving
So early theres no thumbnail
Yeah this episode hurts
Oh god this is just going to be an hour and a half of them having no idea what they're talking about isn't it lol
This is the way.
They knew what they were talking about history-wise (Pyrion did at least). Idk what all you people are complaining about.
Sure enough, it was.
@Cameron Cook pyrion? The man who we all just heard say that nomadic people couldn't be and weren't religious? He knows what he's talking about?
What could we possibly be talking about?
@@Shosty I mean he did say “when talking about history-wise” nomadic people are prehistoric
ive watched none but god im angry already
Minecraft blocks flashbacks
why did the mouths break at the end
Fuck yeah
Lewis's idea of tribal humans is a bit overexaggerated and comes from trying to make modern humans seem more sanitized. We can learn a lot from how they probably acted by seeing how first nations and American Indians acted, where the majority of warfare or fighting between tribes would be because some members of one tribe wandered into another's territory (thus threatening their own food security until they migrate to another area), or from more advanced tribes that have settled down it would be revenge killings between families or clans. There were of course conventional war between tribes, especially some of the tribes with agriculture and settled towns, but then every type of society since has had war, so framing them as more violent seems disingenious, after all they are the exact same species as us just with a different set of material reality.
I feel the need to also clarify that I do not think they are saints, or "noble savages" or anything of the sort. Just felt like Lewis was being unfair by saying they were "extremely violent"
@Sheo completely agree with you. I just read a book on the Mongols, and they had complex social structures and relationships between clans. Nomadic peoples don't get enough credit for important they were for human development. The silk road, for example, was crucial for the spread of ideas, innovation and technology.
The return of the Caveman Jackasses
Sips is right
Pflax really thinks people weren't religios, then were later? LOL? what sips said about writing being a result of religion is ACTUALLY TRUE. they draw the line at Mesopotamia with cuneiform as it has an alphabet, vowels, and is mostly based on one form of language in one area. (runes for examples are pretty loose because they come from a language that was found ALL OVER northern europe, western asia and england- and runes came thousands of years after cuneiform) and MOST of the writings are religious text, i think the only exceptions being things like charters and records from merchants, things like a note that says "sold bob 2 sheep for 5 pieces of bronze" and recipes for general goods like wine and bread
and even before that- MOST writings, art, statues, trinkets, baubles, ANY type of artistic expression were religious. even the thing pyrion was talking about with the numbers in the cave is probably religious based. "god of bows says its good to hunt at this time" or "must kill this many deers for my god" or whatever
edit to add- man, pyrion is really uneducated lol. burials are a big part of religion but again, almost everything was religious since the birth of humanity man. there is evidence that even human ancestors buried their dead, or at least covered them with flowers and stuff (and religions grew from the differences in burials across the world, some did mummies, some did bog burials, sky burials, ocean pyres burning, etc) AND GUESS WHAT PFLAX? ELEPHANTS BURY THEIR DEAD, AND DO FUNERALS TOO. The elephant's family will surround the grave, drop flowers on it, and mourn. There is videos of this all over the place, I seriously dunno how pflax knows bout ants but not elephants doing this
Well imaging rome as cleaner is accurate. They had more slaves than citizens, so their slaves just cleaned everything. Just because it wasn't as dirty doesn't mean they are more advanced. Rome is a despicable culture, those "barbarians" who defeated them were the true revolutionaries
Didn't the triangles used to move their "mouths"? I miss the attention to detail.
EDIT: My mistake. It seems they only stop around the end of the video.
So does this one?
They're literally doing it in this one
@@squegeemcgee2403Watch all the way until the end of the video. The mouths stop moving right at the end.
❤
There was always a wealth disparity, but it wasn't the 1% back in the day, it was the 0.01%. The fact that the average person that isn't born into a high station has even a chance of earning anything above minimum wage in the modern era is quite the contrast to how it used to be. Our homeless people are living it up compared to the vagrants back then.
Lewis is completely wrong about tribal people being violent, there is no evidence for it whatsoever, nor does it make any sense
Hell is Triforce Bonus
Almost-triforce
Not listened yet but I bet this ep sucks like all the other bonus ones :P
Back in a bit !
Sorry Lewis, early humans weren't all that violent, cautious, but not warlike.
A shame they viewed this so Eurocentricly. Probably better since that’s what they know best
Not a bonus :(
C’mon pal. Its fine
Its going to be ok friend
first😂😂😂😂😂
this again? I guess I'll skip this one