My question/concern is: will this affect/change the lie angle inadvertently? Or will I then need to pay for de-loftting the iron and the lie angle together just to be sure? Or should the club repair technician make sure the lie angle stays the same included in the cost of the club de-loft?
I’ve had clubs bent to get better gapping, but we’ve all got to get over the numbers on the clubs. If you can’t get it close to the hole, it doesn’t matter if the club says 7, 8, or 9. Loft is your friend.
Very interesting couple of videos. BTW, that's a great repeatable swing you have. I put golf on the back shelf for about 7-8 years, until this year. As always, when I return to the fold, I look forward to the latest design/marketing "thing" in clubs. I usually get a good chuckle. This time there were a couple of new "things" in irons. 1) 20 years after the excess coefficient of restitution (COR) was smacked down by the R&A and USGA in drivers, OEMs finally came up with the metals and hollow designs to put some COR in irons. Increase in ballspeed and real science. Good stuff. 2) They cranked down the lofts. IMHO, this is voodoo marketing. I have 2 sets of clubs I use. Eternally compliant Ping Eye 2s to start the season and a set of Maltby forged cavity backs for the rest of the season. The 7 irons are 36* and 35* respectively. So when I saw new 7 irons at 28-29*, I needed to look into it. Available for torture-test happened to be the Mizuno JPX923 Hot Metal Pro (7i=28.5*) and JPX923 Hot metal HL(7i=31*). Don't get me wrong, these are both capable clubs. The High Launch garners me about a club and half ballspeed/efficiency/distance (compared to my sticks). But here are my rhetorical questions... 1)Why would anyone intentionally want to send the ball towards the pin on a lower flight with less spin? (note: the Pro 7i did award an extra 1/2 club or so, in total carry and roll). 2)For decades the 6i was the iron used for fitting. I am told the vast majority of clubfitters now use a 7i. Is that because with a 28* 7i, the fitter doesn't want the fittee to know he may not be able to get up his 6i, 5i, or 4i with draconian lofts? Here come the 7 and 9 woods back.;) It's all in fun and I hate to admit it, but I'd rather the HL over the Pro. It also further peaks my interest in the Takomo 201 (7i=32*). Thanks again for a couple of interesting videos on this loft stuff.
Surely having higher lofts might make an iron easier to hit same as with a driver. In terms of easy to hitting club is the 24 degree 38 inch rule as described by Tom Wishon.
I think you should try this off a tee as well. I think you would see a difference in ball speed and distance with the 4 degree drop. I think the bounce is to low when dropped 4 degrees. You should always see a gain in ball speed with less loft. If you see a gain with the ball teed up you'll know why 4 degrees doesn't do better than 2 degrees strong.
I play an old wilson set of irons from the late 70s. I have no problem with hitting my 8-iron from 100-110 yards out while I would have played the PW from my modern set at the same distance as both have identical lofts. If it means swinging easy and getting up and down, I can hang my ego up.
I really like it when you get into "geek mode" and that's not a "slight"! Everyone wants to "credit" technology when sometimes it's purely "manipulation". When tv commentators swoon over almost 200 yd 9 irons I just roll my eyes! Weekend warriors can't buy what pros use off-the-rack and lack the skill to use them if they could.
Good content, it makes total sense. The only thing I feel was missing was dispersions. Changing the lofts change distance but what are the difference in dispersion? Btw, nice swing.
I have an old mph4 mizuno 3 iron. I’d be curious on the impact of bending up to 4 degrees weaker to allow for a better gap between my 225 hybrid and my first iron. ~110 driver ss. Would too much bounce come into play? Especially with a fat soled driving iron?
Depends on your technique and how steep into the ball you are. I am guessing based on these experiments that 4 degrees is going to cause issues. Also is the fact that you will likely have no to negative offset which might just look odd.
I'm curious how much flattening the lie angle really affects the ball flight. I read Hogan played 6 degree flat clubs. I know it does open up the clubface more and more but a comparison video like this would be great.
Interesting about the offset; right before you mentioned that, I thought I noticed your shots going a bit left compared to the others... Another thing I thought of is that when gong through heads in a st, each usually has a different lie angle, which makes sense when the shafts change length, but they also have different weight, with longer irons having lighter heads. Since you didn't change the shaft, not changing lie angle makes sense, but I wonder what effect having the same weight with the stronger makes. Does it make a difference or is having a lighter head required in the longer irons just to keep swing weights constant? On a related note, I've always wondered if adding some loft to a club would increase the club's forgiveness...
You are correct. The head weight changes in order to balance out the different shaft lengths. Loft should not have any impact on that. As for loft and forgiveness, for sure with longer irons but less so with shorter ones if any.
Hey! Great Content!! Any chance you can make (same approach) a video about cutting length for long irons? Have a regular 5 or 4 iron.. get data, then cut it to 37 or 36.. get data? Not the regular one-length approach (which factors the length).. just cutting what we have by default (standard length). Thanks!
Just curious, since I didn't see you mention it in this video, were you presenting the same dynamic loft at impact respectively as you changed lofts? I'd be more interested in seeing that versus just the loft and distance changes. Or do you think it doesn't make that much difference?
What is the downside of going stronger 2 degrees. I would guess that most amateur would benefit from more carry yards? Did you impact location change with 2 degrees strong?
Main issue would be how the lower lofted clubs react and if you have enough height and spin for them to fly properly. Short irons will rarely be a problem.
Appreciate this video! I have MP20 MMC's and I've been considering having the PW and 9 bent stronger since the gaps between 8-9-PW are 5 degrees each. I'd probably go 1 degree stronger in the 9 and 2 degrees stronger in the PW. This gives me the boost I needed to go to the local golf shop and at least test it! One question for you...if I have the golf shop bend them stronger but I don't end up liking the result, is it ok to bend them back to standard? I've been told by golf shops that going back the other way significantly compromises the structural integrity. Thanks for your time and efforts!
After watching your video I took a look at the lofts on my clubs and they are really jacked compared to your clubs. I was wondering why it was so hard to hit my 6 iron.....my 6 iron is 24 degrees I wonder what would happen if I lofted it up 2 degrees.....any opinion?
If you struggle with it, I say why not try it and see if things improve. Worst case, it doesn't and you go back or just dump that club and find a easier one to hit that yardage.
Also less spin on a 9, means it won't stop as fast, no good on a 9 in my opinion, my 9 is 44 degrees, I'll just focus on 2 degrees flat and I'm home free.
Just take one more club?
Delofting adds offset??? Did I hear that correctly? I thought that delofting (making the irons stronger) would takeaway offset....
My question/concern is: will this affect/change the lie angle inadvertently? Or will I then need to pay for de-loftting the iron and the lie angle together just to be sure? Or should the club repair technician make sure the lie angle stays the same included in the cost of the club de-loft?
Would I be able to successfully bend the Original Ping Eyes?
I learned in Karsten 1s and these are nearly identical, but id like a bit more distance
How did the 9 iron bent to 38 degrees compare to the actual 8 iron with the same loft?
I’ve had clubs bent to get better gapping, but we’ve all got to get over the numbers on the clubs. If you can’t get it close to the hole, it doesn’t matter if the club says 7, 8, or 9. Loft is your friend.
I prefer weak loft's, I want higher flight with more spin to stop quicker on the greens.if I need more distance,I simply add a club.
Awesome video! Thanks!
Fascinating stuff AJ. I always anecdotally thought 1° or 2° was about max what you’d ever want, and good to see that confirmed with real testing.
Yeah, guess I could try 3 and see if I could stretch it but 2 seems to be the sweet spot on this.
Very interesting couple of videos. BTW, that's a great repeatable swing you have. I put golf on the back shelf for about 7-8 years, until this year. As always, when I return to the fold, I look forward to the latest design/marketing "thing" in clubs. I usually get a good chuckle. This time there were a couple of new "things" in irons. 1) 20 years after the excess coefficient of restitution (COR) was smacked down by the R&A and USGA in drivers, OEMs finally came up with the metals and hollow designs to put some COR in irons. Increase in ballspeed and real science. Good stuff. 2) They cranked down the lofts. IMHO, this is voodoo marketing. I have 2 sets of clubs I use. Eternally compliant Ping Eye 2s to start the season and a set of Maltby forged cavity backs for the rest of the season. The 7 irons are 36* and 35* respectively. So when I saw new 7 irons at 28-29*, I needed to look into it.
Available for torture-test happened to be the Mizuno JPX923 Hot Metal Pro (7i=28.5*) and JPX923 Hot metal HL(7i=31*). Don't get me wrong, these are both capable clubs. The High Launch garners me about a club and half ballspeed/efficiency/distance (compared to my sticks). But here are my rhetorical questions... 1)Why would anyone intentionally want to send the ball towards the pin on a lower flight with less spin? (note: the Pro 7i did award an extra 1/2 club or so, in total carry and roll). 2)For decades the 6i was the iron used for fitting. I am told the vast majority of clubfitters now use a 7i. Is that because with a 28* 7i, the fitter doesn't want the fittee to know he may not be able to get up his 6i, 5i, or 4i with draconian lofts? Here come the 7 and 9 woods back.;) It's all in fun and I hate to admit it, but I'd rather the HL over the Pro. It also further peaks my interest in the Takomo 201 (7i=32*).
Thanks again for a couple of interesting videos on this loft stuff.
Surely having higher lofts might make an iron easier to hit same as with a driver.
In terms of easy to hitting club is the 24 degree 38 inch rule as described by Tom Wishon.
I think you should try this off a tee as well. I think you would see a difference in ball speed and distance with the 4 degree drop. I think the bounce is to low when dropped 4 degrees. You should always see a gain in ball speed with less loft. If you see a gain with the ball teed up you'll know why 4 degrees doesn't do better than 2 degrees strong.
I play an old wilson set of irons from the late 70s. I have no problem with hitting my 8-iron from 100-110 yards out while I would have played the PW from my modern set at the same distance as both have identical lofts. If it means swinging easy and getting up and down, I can hang my ego up.
I really like it when you get into "geek mode" and that's not a "slight"! Everyone wants to "credit" technology when sometimes it's purely "manipulation". When tv commentators swoon over almost 200 yd 9 irons I just roll my eyes! Weekend warriors can't buy what pros use off-the-rack and lack the skill to use them if they could.
how does going from 28 degree to 30 degree how does that effect distance, launch and landing angle?
Good content, it makes total sense. The only thing I feel was missing was dispersions. Changing the lofts change distance but what are the difference in dispersion? Btw, nice swing.
Can you do a video showing performance vs bounce making irons 2-3 degrees weaker?
That would be sweet
I have an old mph4 mizuno 3 iron. I’d be curious on the impact of bending up to 4 degrees weaker to allow for a better gap between my 225 hybrid and my first iron. ~110 driver ss. Would too much bounce come into play? Especially with a fat soled driving iron?
Depends on your technique and how steep into the ball you are. I am guessing based on these experiments that 4 degrees is going to cause issues. Also is the fact that you will likely have no to negative offset which might just look odd.
Love the new Channel ...;-)
I'm curious how much flattening the lie angle really affects the ball flight. I read Hogan played 6 degree flat clubs. I know it does open up the clubface more and more but a comparison video like this would be great.
great video, thanks.
Interesting about the offset; right before you mentioned that, I thought I noticed your shots going a bit left compared to the others... Another thing I thought of is that when gong through heads in a st, each usually has a different lie angle, which makes sense when the shafts change length, but they also have different weight, with longer irons having lighter heads. Since you didn't change the shaft, not changing lie angle makes sense, but I wonder what effect having the same weight with the stronger makes. Does it make a difference or is having a lighter head required in the longer irons just to keep swing weights constant?
On a related note, I've always wondered if adding some loft to a club would increase the club's forgiveness...
You are correct. The head weight changes in order to balance out the different shaft lengths. Loft should not have any impact on that.
As for loft and forgiveness, for sure with longer irons but less so with shorter ones if any.
Hey! Great Content!!
Any chance you can make (same approach) a video about cutting length for long irons? Have a regular 5 or 4 iron.. get data, then cut it to 37 or 36.. get data? Not the regular one-length approach (which factors the length).. just cutting what we have by default (standard length). Thanks!
Already have it on the schedule!
I just get my yardages for each club and play the distance needed. I do the very same for my vintage irons.
Just curious, since I didn't see you mention it in this video, were you presenting the same dynamic loft at impact respectively as you changed lofts? I'd be more interested in seeing that versus just the loft and distance changes. Or do you think it doesn't make that much difference?
I wasn't tracking it but I think it matched up with the loft change. I usually does very closely.
What is the downside of going stronger 2 degrees. I would guess that most amateur would benefit from more carry yards? Did you impact location change with 2 degrees strong?
Main issue would be how the lower lofted clubs react and if you have enough height and spin for them to fly properly. Short irons will rarely be a problem.
Fantastic video thank you
Hi, have really been enjoying your channels. What brand of club making tools do you use? Who makes the loft/lie adjuster seen in the video?
A good bit comes from Golfworks. The loft lie bending station is from Golf Mechanix but again can be found on Golfworks.
Appreciate this video! I have MP20 MMC's and I've been considering having the PW and 9 bent stronger since the gaps between 8-9-PW are 5 degrees each. I'd probably go 1 degree stronger in the 9 and 2 degrees stronger in the PW. This gives me the boost I needed to go to the local golf shop and at least test it!
One question for you...if I have the golf shop bend them stronger but I don't end up liking the result, is it ok to bend them back to standard? I've been told by golf shops that going back the other way significantly compromises the structural integrity.
Thanks for your time and efforts!
Not true. I've bent clubs numerous times without any issues. Add it to the long list of golf shop bull!
Yes 2degree flat. I'm very happy with a 36 degree 7 iron.
After watching your video I took a look at the lofts on my clubs and they are really jacked compared to your clubs. I was wondering why it was so hard to hit my 6 iron.....my 6 iron is 24 degrees I wonder what would happen if I lofted it up 2 degrees.....any opinion?
If you struggle with it, I say why not try it and see if things improve. Worst case, it doesn't and you go back or just dump that club and find a easier one to hit that yardage.
@jerry.
It's hard to hit because your 6 iron at 24 deg is same as my 4 iron 24 deg. ridiculous what club companies are doing.
@jerry.
It's hard to hit because your 6 iron at 24 deg is same as my 4 iron 24 deg. ridiculous what club companies are doing.
Also less spin on a 9, means it won't stop as fast, no good on a 9 in my opinion, my 9 is 44 degrees, I'll just focus on 2 degrees flat and I'm home free.
When I click the link for the previous video it says “This video has been removed by the uploaded”. ☹️
I appreciate your video. It's informative and helps, thx. But I don't need to see you hit all 4 balls. Lol it's not a gold swing video
Enjoy your tinkering