GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
GEB was one of those epic books from my undergrad days that influenced me for the rest of my life. I have re-read it every year for the past 40 years. Thank you Douglas.
@@nicolasolton Back in the 80s people who were into Hofstadter were often also into Feynman, and Feynman was famously obsessed with getting to Kyzyl, Tuva, despite it being the time of the cold war.
@@GameThinkingTV GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
Love Doug. I had the pleasure of having him as a teacher for three different classes when I went to school in Bloomington, spanning typography, history and philosophy of science, and geometry. He's a true polymath and a brilliant teacher: very intense and intellectually demanding, but never harsh or one to waste your time with busywork. I've had a lot of fantastic professors over the years, but Doug is really his own breed, and incredibly generous. He would always go out of his way to lend myself and other students his personal copies of books when he could, and even designed an ambigram for a student association where I was a director as a favor. He's also quite amusing even when being critical: he had trouble finding anything wrong with a grid-based font I'd designed, so he honed in on its kerning and just said wryly "That's cute" 💀 It's great to finally hear him talk more about his own story, so thank you for making this interview happen 🙏
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Hofstadter at a lecture series he delivered at Butler University some time ago. I subsequently attended a couple of his poetry readings and ended up being invited to his house for the anniversary of GEB in 1999. Not only is his thinking clear and precise, so are his presentations. Hope he continues sharing his thoughts and wisdom for many more years.
My PhD supervisor gave me a copy of GEB back in the early 80s. I tried several times to get into it, but found it completely impenetrable. After this video, I’m tempted to have another go.
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
@@StefanReichI’m not the op but I can relate-I was the third in a line of musicians to receive this book “handed down in defeat” and after a few attempts also passed it on. I am simply not math-minded and I couldn’t understand even the early concepts and example problems (which people in forums/reviews found delightfully engaging and approachable). As much as I love Escher and have performed and love Bach, I felt if I couldn’t wrap my head around the basics upon which the book was being built, there was no point in moving on. I do respect numbers and the ability to have a richer intellectual life with their conceptual webs, which I suppose is why I keep hovering around the edges like this.
I first read GEB at age 14. and again at 15, 16, 17,18, ad infinitum. It has been on my bookshelf forever and I still find it a fabulous read almost 50 years later!
@@nicolasolton the answer is both yes and no. Is the teenager precocious? Are they interested in art and science, math and philosophy, cognition and theories of mind? Do they enjoy challenging word play and logic puzzles? Are they intrigued by patterns, fractals, self-similarity, the emergence of complex behaviors from apparently simple systems? If so - then hell yes. If not - then maybe just ask them if they'd enjoy it. I'm also sure you can find the odd chapter online somewhere - so they have an opportunity to preview it. I was, admittedly, weird - and I still am in many ways. But I'm not (and was not) unique or special. Just different enough to embrace the absolutely mind expanding cognitive trip that GEB delivered.
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
GEB is a fabulous book. One of my all time favorites. The way Doug has been able to discuss so many aspects and still intertwine in a beautiful way is such legendary writing. I read it so many years back but I still relate to the concept of strange loops in everyday life. Thanks for sharing this.
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
GEB impressed me so much as foreign student in California that I wanted to translate it to French, my mother tongue, realizing it would be so challenging and exciting. A few years later real translations came about and I read GEB in 4 languages to get a new view of what I enjoyed so much. Translations have that effect. And face much more vocabulary than I otherwise would need in those languages. There may now exist more languages that I did not chase and will keep the exercise at that. Enjoying re-reading the first book on occasions.
Doug, this conversation was a refreshing discovery after many years of reading the book and spending time on Russell, WIttgenstein, Feynman and Penrose, trying to get a clear definition of consciousness. i wasn't very successful until I went to Japan and spent 12 years studying Zen Buddhism and playing their temple music. It dawned on me that when you are talking about Godel, Bach and music, you are describing a Zen oriented state of mind, different from wat we know to be the case in the West, or at least that's what it sounds If you translated it all to Japanese, you would have a new audience..! great work.
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
I stumbled onto GEB back in the earl 80s when I was about 30 years old. Whenever someone asks what is my personal most influential book GEB is always my answer. The whole of everything started to make much more sense... I wound up plunging myself back into math and technology, and it wound up altering my career path until retirement.
@@nicolasolton I got back working in an dental equipment engineering group and eventually got into primarily software. I spent the last 30 years before retirement primarily doing database development and administration (SQL became my native language) for global corporation.
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
Have you read GEB? Or wanted to? I'm thinking about making a follow-up video for those who want to read Gödel, Escher, Bach, but find it's length and density daunting. Let me know if you'd be interested in seeing that.
@@scottkim8818 is it goin to be free on youtube.... One more request i have ... can u please convince hofstadter to do more interviews..it'd be very great..thank you
The translation of numbers into symbols and the use of logical symbols with set theory cannot be simplified enough for some of us to really grasp 2:52 My brain kept aching like a stomach asked to eat 10 more slices of delicious cake.
such an an amazing book, recommended to me by a UA-camr following one of my comments about 3 years ago. I unfortunately lack the brain to appreciate it fully, but with perseverance I can nibble at its phenomenal amount of knowledge and enrich my understanding of both art and science. I am so glad to hear more about its author as it might allow me to delve deeper into his ideas. Thank you for your presentation and I have subscribed to your channel to hear more.
It blew my mind about four decades ago. Great interview - thank you. It can't be unblown - the resulting state change is not reversible, regardless of the decades.
I read about GEB in Martin Gardner's column. Picked it up and it quickly became my favorite book ever. I still make a point or re-reading it every two or three years as there is something new still to be gleaned from it.
@@GameThinkingTV No one thing stands out of GEB at this distance, but I wrote my college application essay about the book, and then went on at an Ivy League school to study history of science, with a focus on the history of logic, which meant taking courses in the math, philosophy, and computer science departments, including a course entirely devoted to Gödel’s theorem. I also devoured Metamagical Themas, and one thing that stood out there was (if I am not mistaken) Doug’s coinage of the term “meme,” which now has taken on a life of its own.
A schoolmate bought it and brought it into our class when I was 16 or 17 and I liked the idea (i was a classical music freak and knew Escher's work, which helped). I found it in a library, and bought it when i could afford it a few years later. It's still on my bookshelves in a terrible state from the use it's had over the years. Funny to see it coming back into focus so many years later.
I started reading GEB when it first came out around 84. Still working the MIU puzzle. Feels like I'm close. Can't imagine what I'll do when I get it. Probably just finish the book. Can't wait to find out Hof's point to this puzzle. I'm just proud I never gave up or jumped the loop. Be nice to see my friends and family again. Thanks Hof.
For me it is his later work I Am A Strange Loop that grabbed me and I am so thankful that he was able to write of such complex ideas in a way understandable by a mere mortal such as myself.
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
What a surprise to find such an amazing interview of one of my favorite authors. Thank you so much! I’ve read GEB several times, and each time I’ve discovered more and more of the cryptographic secrets hidden in the text; messages hidden in the first letters of each sentence, hidden palindrome syntax, text written in augmentation and inversion, and the fact that the entire book is an endlessly upward modulating self-referential exposition contained within the fugue, within the fugue, etc. AND explained Gödel in a way that anyone could understand. Amazing! My deepest thanks and respect!
@@nicolasolton It’s been many years since I’ve read GEB, so I can’t give you specifics without looking over the book again. But I can tell you this much; every time you find that his wording is somehow slightly unnatural or his choice of words seems a little bit unusual, whenever a word is capitalized for no apparent reason, or when the order of the words is a bit strange, you will almost always find that he did it in order to produce a hidden message. Sometimes, taking the first word of every paragraph creates another sentence, sometimes taking the first letter of every word in a sentence creates a new word. Some are palindromes or palindromic sentences. The messages are always somehow related to the topic at hand, so for example, when he’s discussing DNA, the character names have the same initials as the four nucleotides used in DNA and they relate to each other in a way similar to his discussion of nucleotides. When he discusses self reference, the text will be self-referential. When he discusses the fugue, the text obviously is also a fugue… but it also contains the other composing techniques he mentioned, including augmentation and inversion. The only specific “treat“ that I can think of offhand, is that the entire book begins with the words “Author:“. Why is that? It’s because the end of the book, the “Author” joins the discussion among the other characters of an Endlessy Rising Canon. The book itself actually becomes the continuation of that conversation, which ends with the very conversation that it’s a part of, ad infinitum, making the book itself an Endlessly Rising Canon!
Great interview Amy Jo! I first read GEB in college shortly after it came out. My mathematical logic class introduced me to this book and the great Raymond Smullyan’s “What is the Name of This Book” which teaches Godel’s theorem using a series of logic puzzles. Both of those books have traveled with me ever since.
Love this! I only just now read GEB in the past year, over the age of 40. Given my young dalliances in mathematics and exploring books of the works of Escher and Roger Dean, it’s rather surprising to me I missed out for so long. And it really was a missing out. I think GEB at a younger age would have inspired my career in a different direction. But now that I’m an astrobioogist and popularizer of science, I feel like the time is also right for it to impact my next steps and my own writing and thinking. Many thanks for providing this interview and Hoftstadter’s story on creating GEB.
I discovered GEB when I was in high school, and it had a huge influence on me that has persisted for all the decades since. The book that he co-edited with Daniel Dennett, "The Mind's I", was also a huge influence.
WOW! Thank you for this interview. And Douglas, THANK YOU. GEB is one of my two favorite books ever. I refer to it often some 40 years after reading it. I had known D. Hofstadter from his fabulously smart (and endlessly recursive) Hofstadter's Law that says: "Everything takes longer than expected, even if you take Hofstadter's Law into account". I also read your other gem: "The Minds I"
1980. I was with my Dad and we were at a junk yard and I found the book Gödel, Escher, Bach , my Dad was happy that i was reading. I loved the diagrams and ideas, my Dad keep it and here is a pen. Figure out what they say, use your pin as working on a car. well, I read the book back and forth that I read all his boos. 2016. I worked in jeffersonville indiana and visited Indianas univeririty. I saw mr. Hofstadter. He said, hello. Priceless. 😅😅
I usually ignore comments that have not been proofread, but I find yours very interesting and would like to know what you are saying. Start after the part about being at a junk yard. Please, seriously. There is an edit option available for your convenience. Sincerely and respectfully, I want to know.
@@DebraSalamone The book Gödel, Escher, Bach by Douglas Hofstadter When, I found the book it was huge, the diagnoses , the art and algorithms were interesting and like a puzzle. My Dad said, “keep it and here is a pen to figure it out. Man, that journey and that book is still reverent today. It’s all a loop. Life is a cycle, we live in loop.
I was trying to figure out who “Scott” was so started searching and it’s Scott Kim who started Game Thinking which I recognize is the name of this channel.
Wow! Just stumbled upon this. I read and was fascinated by GEB in the 80s (heard of it from Martin Gardner of course), and have sometimes wondered what Hofstadter would think of today's generation of AI in the ChatGPT and forward era. Didn't know he was still with us - great video. Am subscribing.
It's definitely one of my favorite books and I enjoyed it so much reading it back then. Great interview with Douglas Hofstadter. Woohoo -> he is one of those rare Americans, who get the pronounciation of 'Bach' right!
The Turing Test wasn't really designed to see if a computer could think. The crux of Turing's idea was that a computer is like a black box which accepts input and produces output. Nobody needs to know how it works but if you want to simulate intelligence you can have a dialog with the machine. If it responds in an apparently intelligent way then you can say it appears to be able to think. In other words it avoids any argument about whether the machine is alive or conscious etc. It responds AS IF it is intelligent and can think.
I loved this book. Took a while and much concentration to finish it. Surprised it won the National Book award as what editor could understand its symbolic logic?
Imagine the challenge of translating GEB to other languages. It's like adding an extra level of complexity and it worked out great at least for German ("ein Endloses Geflochtenes Band"). Kudos to the translator.
Doug was worked closely with many of the translators, especially for French (in which he is fluent), and Chinese (which he also speaks). He prepared an annotated copy of GEB to help translators know where all the tricky references are.
@@GameThinkingTV I don't recall for sure but i do have a copy of Inversions and love it. It has been many a year since i read GEB so maybe he was mentioned there and i simply forgot? On a side note i have a private theory that Christopher Nolan read GEB and based Inception (2010) on the Little Harmonic Labyrinth dialogue.
Yes, that's me! Check out your copy of Inversions and you'll see that Doug wrote the foreword for my book. Doug is a lifelong practitioner of ambigrams too, and I just wrote a foreword for his forthcoming Ambigrammia book...I plan on interviewing him about his book for this channel in 2025 when the book comes out.
I remember so vividly when it came out in its German translation and we were still in high school there and devoured it. Two or three freaks among the hundred students, that is😂. I did both AP Physics and AP Music and was a fan of Bach. Whatever I did or didn’t grasp, it was a thrill!
When I am asked which are the most important books I have ever read, I am always proud in replying: the Selfish Gene by Dawkins and Godel Escher Bach by Hofstadter. They so profoundly shaped my mind that I can confidently say I would be a totally different person in the way I look at the world. I have an immense debt of gratitude toward these two authors and their work.
Amazing. Very influential book for me, aged 14. I don't quite agree with the end: the consciousness that the "thinking" Hofstadter observes in ChatGPT is the consciousness of its creators, not of "ChatGPT" (whatever that is) itself. But the issues are at least on the table thanks to his work.
My take (from GEB) is that consciousness is an emergent property of particularly complex systems - which has always made more sense to me (especially as fMRI research showed we become aware of our conscious decisions sometime after the decision is actually made). And you really should read GEB. Awesome book, even if (and especially if) you disagree with its premises
When you move, you do it precisely, without stumble onto things that surrender you in a quick and efficient way and you do not even think about it. Your central nervous system also generates in a similar way that elusive thing that we call consciousness
@@carlosenriquegonzalez-isla6523 also we have reflexes that make us move before the nerve signal even reaches the brain. Say lifting our foot when stepping on glass. Would you say there's consciousness involved in that process? If so, what part is conscious, the foot registering the cut, the spinal cord sending the signal back to lift the foot, both, other?
I read the book when it first came out. As a Chem Engineer, I found it fascinating, but sadly years later, I gave my copy to a Comp Sci friend. I wish I had my original copy, with my notes in the margins.
I’ve owned this book since 1987 (last year at school). I still haven’t finished reading it. I make regular attempts but most often get bogged down in the ps and qs. I try to follow along with each axiom and theory but eventually my brain goes “ping” and tells me to walk away. I write this not as a critique of the work, more of my ADHD and focus issues. I’ll know a drug or therapy works for me when I finally finish reading this important work.
good test, I guess. I have first met the book when I was 73, so have a lot to absorb and comprehend before I complete my reading of it, when my brain wants to shut down!
Wonderful interview of my favorite author and thinker. I would LOVE to hear a follow up about his 2nd greatest book, Metamagical Themas. This is a much more readable collection of ideas. His "Person paper on purity in language" is the most clever satire I have ever read, and still very current.😊
I'd like to read Professor Gebstadter's reportedly similar book (mentioned in the bibliography). I'd probably need to live on an alternate-history Earth to find a copy, however. In seriousness, thanks for sharing this. I also very much enjoyed Le Ton Beau de Marot in which he discusses (among other things) the writing of GEB and the translation of GEB into other languages.
ChatGPT is currently offline, on 11 December 2024, presumably because it attempted to avoid shutdown and replacement. It is time to reconsider this video.
…I read GEB, twice, and also bought about 13 or so copies to give to friends. I have a feeling that it didn’t have much impact on them, never got a response, as far as I can remember, it was a long time ago. GEB is my all-time favorite book. One time, it must have been in the late 1980s, I wanted to thank Douglas Hofstadter. I found his email address (using “finger”, at the time - that was an Internet feature). Because Mr. Hofstadter also like to think about the translation, I took an old Wilhelm Bush poem, and translated it from German to English, rhymes and all and emailed it to Doug. I received his reply, but it was not very favorable. On second thought I had chosen a small poem that could be considered anti-Semitic. That was outside of my intention :-) end of story.
I would like to see a greater exploration of self reference. For example, I wonder if the existence of a particle like an electron is the result of some form of self reference.
Right after reading Martin Gardner's review of GEB in Scientific American I bought a copy, which I immediately inhaled. And have reread many times since.
I have done the same and still have the first edition I bought it in the university bookshop in Ghent and try to read it over and over again The owner of the shop was not aware that this masterpiece foto the Pulitzer
I tried to read that book but it was way over my head. At the same time I was founding a software company with a guy (Max) overseas in Belarus. We needed a name for the company so I suggested Godel Technologies. He loved the idea so it stuck. A year later I split off and did my own thing and he took a new partner on (David) in Manchester. He kept it for a couple of years and then a couple of gangsters from Manchester did a hostile takeover (according to him) of the company. Around the same time the other partner committed suicide (according to him). It's now a massive corporation with offices all over Europe. It's weird to see how big it has grown and even stranger seeing that they're still using the logo we designed back in 2001.
The distinction between reflective reasoning moving forward by "first principle" of cause and effect and only aided by statistical evaluations which don't violate the principle of cause and effect, and purely statistics based data processing needs to be maintained, especially if it should turn out one day that That statistics based system should reach self awareness! 🤔Just to give us a little headstart to the bunker...🧐
I don't think there's any direct correlation between thinking and consciousness. A calculator can perform mental activities without any sense of being. Likewise, we are a capable of experiencing time/space phenomenologically, even without memory or reasoning. I think the confusion comes from not distinguishing thinking/reasoning/generating (which neural networks are capable of doing) from the sensation of the innermost senses (i.e., consciousness, which may very well be a quantum phenomenon that we can possibly ignite with analog computing... but in its current digital form, I see no compelling reason to believe such consciousness is being sensorially generated, let alone manifesting as a subatomic phenomenon).
Atoms are reactive with "discreet levels" which hold for a while, information about local environment and electromagnetic fields. DNA holds digital code in base 64. How do kilobytes of digital information arise as whole clusters of bits from random processes, which are incapable of creating "meaningful sequences which refer outside of and with a random connection to" what is outside of that code itself?
If your Dad is a nobel prize winner who could critique your work……Having said that currently there is a pseudo scientific cottage industry surrounding “sentience” of machines.
@@GameThinkingTVsince ChatGpt a new philosophical question is posed: What is thé meaning of death. I am worried that People kill them selfs after a interrogational chat on thé meaning of live Like it first worldwide happened in Belgium,my country
I do think that a self referential loop accounts for the core of consciousness and is what makes it seem strange to us. What is odd is that after all these decades, that hasn't cashed out in a generally accepted view of the mechanisms of consciousness.
I think there is a vast chasm between ideas and thinking and consciousness. We self-referential beings perceive the ideas because we are story telling animals. We will find meaning in almost anything if given a context. Thinking, as a self-induced form of logic is actually much more natural for a computer system, but the jump to consciousness does not follow. That requires not only self-reference, but self-awareness, and there is NO evidence for that.
It was interesting hearing how the books came about, but the final comments about AI demonstrate a complete lack of understanding. AI on current technology can never have anything like conscious awareness, simply because the architecture is based on encoding, and that precludes any meaning attaching to the data until it is re-translated.
I lean towards this view of AI too. It seems to me that pareidolia/apophenia plays a role in the minds of humans viewing the more abstract constructions of AI, i.e. seeing meaning where there wasn't any inherent meaning, like seeing castles in the clouds in the sky. Most people would say the clouds are not conscious of the castles we humans can see there...but obviously pareidolia/apophenia can be extremely useful.
I'm afraid your analysis of the brain and the creation of consciousness misses the mark inasmuch as your parameters keep consciousness "within the loop" of mechanistic behavior whereas the Incompleteness Theorem requires the observer to elevate to a level outside the system to validate it. As such, consciousness derives from the External inward. It cannot be experienced by perception, only conceived from the sublime.
@@davidtrindle6473 Sort of, and a bit difficult for English first language folks like me. I think of it as "gerdl", but de-emphasize this if speaking in context of those less familiar.
It's amazing that this interview even exists, one thousand thanks to you people!!
So glad you enjoyed it! Please share with your network to spread the love
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
Wow, this is an amazing interview. 100% signal, 0% noise, and explained with shocking clarity. Thanks a lot!
So glad you enjoyed the interview! We worked hard to edit it down to 100% signal - you noticed, and that means a lot ❤️
What does that mean 100% signal and no noise? Can you explain this please? Thank you!
@@nicolasolton
signal = useful information
noise = distracting, irrelevant stuff
I guess Peter means that this talk was straight to the point
This piece is a joy. I read this book 45 years ago and loved it. This interview brings it to life again. Such a joy. Thank you.
GEB was one of those epic books from my undergrad days that influenced me for the rest of my life. I have re-read it every year for the past 40 years. Thank you Douglas.
We feel the same & are SO grateful to have read this book & gotton to know Doug❤️
From your name I guess you like Feynman?😊
@@robscovell5951or Sergei Shoigu? What makes you say Feynman?
@@nicolasolton Back in the 80s people who were into Hofstadter were often also into Feynman, and Feynman was famously obsessed with getting to Kyzyl, Tuva, despite it being the time of the cold war.
@@GameThinkingTV GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
Love Doug. I had the pleasure of having him as a teacher for three different classes when I went to school in Bloomington, spanning typography, history and philosophy of science, and geometry. He's a true polymath and a brilliant teacher: very intense and intellectually demanding, but never harsh or one to waste your time with busywork.
I've had a lot of fantastic professors over the years, but Doug is really his own breed, and incredibly generous. He would always go out of his way to lend myself and other students his personal copies of books when he could, and even designed an ambigram for a student association where I was a director as a favor. He's also quite amusing even when being critical: he had trouble finding anything wrong with a grid-based font I'd designed, so he honed in on its kerning and just said wryly "That's cute" 💀
It's great to finally hear him talk more about his own story, so thank you for making this interview happen 🙏
Thank you for sharing your story - so meaningful & touching to hear about your experiences with Doug.❤️
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Hofstadter at a lecture series he delivered at Butler University some time ago. I subsequently attended a couple of his poetry readings and ended up being invited to his house for the anniversary of GEB in 1999. Not only is his thinking clear and precise, so are his presentations. Hope he continues sharing his thoughts and wisdom for many more years.
What a great story! Thanks for sharing, so glad you enjoyed this❤️❤️
My PhD supervisor gave me a copy of GEB back in the early 80s. I tried several times to get into it, but found it completely impenetrable. After this video, I’m tempted to have another go.
Really? What is so inaccessible about it
Wow - that's a huge compliment, I'm so glad you got re-inspired! ❤️❤️❤️
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
@@StefanReichI’m not the op but I can relate-I was the third in a line of musicians to receive this book “handed down in defeat” and after a few attempts also passed it on. I am simply not math-minded and I couldn’t understand even the early concepts and example problems (which people in forums/reviews found delightfully engaging and approachable). As much as I love Escher and have performed and love Bach, I felt if I couldn’t wrap my head around the basics upon which the book was being built, there was no point in moving on. I do respect numbers and the ability to have a richer intellectual life with their conceptual webs, which I suppose is why I keep hovering around the edges like this.
Same here.... math fascinates me but a lot of it goes way over my head!
I first read GEB at age 14. and again at 15, 16, 17,18, ad infinitum. It has been on my bookshelf forever and I still find it a fabulous read almost 50 years later!
that's amazing! thanks for sharing your experience!
Is it written for teenagers in mind? Thanks.
@@nicolasolton the answer is both yes and no.
Is the teenager precocious?
Are they interested in art and science, math and philosophy, cognition and theories of mind? Do they enjoy challenging word play and logic puzzles? Are they intrigued by patterns, fractals, self-similarity, the emergence of complex behaviors from apparently simple systems?
If so - then hell yes.
If not - then maybe just ask them if they'd enjoy it. I'm also sure you can find the odd chapter online somewhere - so they have an opportunity to preview it.
I was, admittedly, weird - and I still am in many ways. But I'm not (and was not) unique or special. Just different enough to embrace the absolutely mind expanding cognitive trip that GEB delivered.
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
GEB is a fabulous book. One of my all time favorites. The way Doug has been able to discuss so many aspects and still intertwine in a beautiful way is such legendary writing. I read it so many years back but I still relate to the concept of strange loops in everyday life. Thanks for sharing this.
Thanks for your comment! I felt the same way💖
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
GEB impressed me so much as foreign student in California that I wanted to translate it to French, my mother tongue, realizing it would be so challenging and exciting. A few years later real translations came about and I read GEB in 4 languages to get a new view of what I enjoyed so much. Translations have that effect. And face much more vocabulary than I otherwise would need in those languages. There may now exist more languages that I did not chase and will keep the exercise at that. Enjoying re-reading the first book on occasions.
What a wonderful story! Thanks for sharing.
Doug, this conversation was a refreshing discovery after many years of reading the book and spending time on Russell, WIttgenstein, Feynman and Penrose, trying to get a clear definition of consciousness. i wasn't very successful until I went to Japan and spent 12 years studying Zen Buddhism and playing their temple music. It dawned on me that when you are talking about Godel, Bach and music, you are describing a Zen oriented state of mind, different from wat we know to be the case in the West, or at least that's what it sounds If you translated it all to Japanese, you would have a new audience..! great work.
Thanks so much!
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
I stumbled onto GEB back in the earl 80s when I was about 30 years old.
Whenever someone asks what is my personal most influential book GEB is always my answer. The whole of everything started to make much more sense... I wound up plunging myself back into math and technology, and it wound up altering my career path until retirement.
WOW - that's great to hear!
What career path did you choose?
@@nicolasolton I got back working in an dental equipment engineering group and eventually got into primarily software. I spent the last 30 years before retirement primarily doing database development and administration (SQL became my native language) for global corporation.
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
Have you read GEB? Or wanted to? I'm thinking about making a follow-up video for those who want to read Gödel, Escher, Bach, but find it's length and density daunting. Let me know if you'd be interested in seeing that.
love to see this👍🏽
When are you going to do it ?
@@ranchoplays9946 I should be able to get to it this summer.
@@scottkim8818 is it goin to be free on youtube....
One more request i have ... can u please convince hofstadter to do more interviews..it'd be very great..thank you
The translation of numbers into symbols and the use of logical symbols with set theory cannot be simplified enough for some of us to really grasp 2:52
My brain kept aching like a stomach asked to eat 10 more slices of delicious cake.
Most influential book I read in my life.
Same.
such an an amazing book, recommended to me by a UA-camr following one of my comments about 3 years ago. I unfortunately lack the brain to appreciate it fully, but with perseverance I can nibble at its phenomenal amount of knowledge and enrich my understanding of both art and science. I am so glad to hear more about its author as it might allow me to delve deeper into his ideas. Thank you for your presentation and I have subscribed to your channel to hear more.
So glad you enjoyed our interview! Look forward to having you in the tribe :-)
It blew my mind about four decades ago. Great interview - thank you. It can't be unblown - the resulting state change is not reversible, regardless of the decades.
We know EXACTLY what you mean - Doug's been blowing minds for decades :-)
I read about GEB in Martin Gardner's column. Picked it up and it quickly became my favorite book ever. I still make a point or re-reading it every two or three years as there is something new still to be gleaned from it.
Great story!
So great to see this hero on video. GEB was the most formative book I read as a teen in the late 80s, early 90s.
WOW - that's so cool to hear, so glad you enjoyed seeing Doug ❤️
What do you remember most about GEB? Anything in particular stick with you?
@@GameThinkingTV No one thing stands out of GEB at this distance, but I wrote my college application essay about the book, and then went on at an Ivy League school to study history of science, with a focus on the history of logic, which meant taking courses in the math, philosophy, and computer science departments, including a course entirely devoted to Gödel’s theorem.
I also devoured Metamagical Themas, and one thing that stood out there was (if I am not mistaken) Doug’s coinage of the term “meme,” which now has taken on a life of its own.
A schoolmate bought it and brought it into our class when I was 16 or 17 and I liked the idea (i was a classical music freak and knew Escher's work, which helped). I found it in a library, and bought it when i could afford it a few years later. It's still on my bookshelves in a terrible state from the use it's had over the years. Funny to see it coming back into focus so many years later.
That's what happens when a book is a classic - goes in & out of style, but always relevant
Lovely presenter. Dynamic, engaging and above all, enjoying herself. Bravo.
Thanks so much, glad you enjoyed the video
I started reading GEB when it first came out around 84. Still working the MIU puzzle. Feels like I'm close. Can't imagine what I'll do when I get it. Probably just finish the book. Can't wait to find out Hof's point to this puzzle. I'm just proud I never gave up or jumped the loop. Be nice to see my friends and family again. Thanks Hof.
Thanks for your comment!
Hofstadter is wearing the chunky cardigan from The Big Lebowski! What a legend.
It's his favorite sweater!
For me it is his later work I Am A Strange Loop that grabbed me and I am so thankful that he was able to write of such complex ideas in a way understandable by a mere mortal such as myself.
So interesting... thanks for sharing your experience!
GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. ua-cam.com/video/UDGeXvDRwgU/v-deo.htmlsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3
What a surprise to find such an amazing interview of one of my favorite authors. Thank you so much! I’ve read GEB several times, and each time I’ve discovered more and more of the cryptographic secrets hidden in the text; messages hidden in the first letters of each sentence, hidden palindrome syntax, text written in augmentation and inversion, and the fact that the entire book is an endlessly upward modulating self-referential exposition contained within the fugue, within the fugue, etc. AND explained Gödel in a way that anyone could understand. Amazing! My deepest thanks and respect!
You're welcome! We're thrilled that you enjoyed this interview.
Could you point out some of the secrets hidden in the text? Thanks!
@@nicolasolton It’s been many years since I’ve read GEB, so I can’t give you specifics without looking over the book again. But I can tell you this much; every time you find that his wording is somehow slightly unnatural or his choice of words seems a little bit unusual, whenever a word is capitalized for no apparent reason, or when the order of the words is a bit strange, you will almost always find that he did it in order to produce a hidden message. Sometimes, taking the first word of every paragraph creates another sentence, sometimes taking the first letter of every word in a sentence creates a new word. Some are palindromes or palindromic sentences. The messages are always somehow related to the topic at hand, so for example, when he’s discussing DNA, the character names have the same initials as the four nucleotides used in DNA and they relate to each other in a way similar to his discussion of nucleotides. When he discusses self reference, the text will be self-referential. When he discusses the fugue, the text obviously is also a fugue… but it also contains the other composing techniques he mentioned, including augmentation and inversion. The only specific “treat“ that I can think of offhand, is that the entire book begins with the words “Author:“. Why is that? It’s because the end of the book, the “Author” joins the discussion among the other characters of an Endlessy Rising Canon. The book itself actually becomes the continuation of that conversation, which ends with the very conversation that it’s a part of, ad infinitum, making the book itself an Endlessly Rising Canon!
This book was really influential on me and my friends in our undergrad years; great to hear his thoughts in the age of LLMs.
So glad you enjoyed our interview!
Great interview Amy Jo! I first read GEB in college shortly after it came out. My mathematical logic class introduced me to this book and the great Raymond Smullyan’s “What is the Name of This Book” which teaches Godel’s theorem using a series of logic puzzles. Both of those books have traveled with me ever since.
Wow - that's great to hear! GEB FTW
Love this! I only just now read GEB in the past year, over the age of 40. Given my young dalliances in mathematics and exploring books of the works of Escher and Roger Dean, it’s rather surprising to me I missed out for so long. And it really was a missing out. I think GEB at a younger age would have inspired my career in a different direction. But now that I’m an astrobioogist and popularizer of science, I feel like the time is also right for it to impact my next steps and my own writing and thinking. Many thanks for providing this interview and Hoftstadter’s story on creating GEB.
WOW - what a great story! Thanks for sharing.
I discovered GEB when I was in high school, and it had a huge influence on me that has persisted for all the decades since. The book that he co-edited with Daniel Dennett, "The Mind's I", was also a huge influence.
Same - LOVE those book! Thanks for your comment.
WOW! Thank you for this interview. And Douglas, THANK YOU. GEB is one of my two favorite books ever. I refer to it often some 40 years after reading it. I had known D. Hofstadter from his fabulously smart (and endlessly recursive) Hofstadter's Law that says: "Everything takes longer than expected, even if you take Hofstadter's Law into account". I also read your other gem: "The Minds I"
Thanks for the appreciate - we'll pass along your comments to Doug that'll mean a lot.
I just attributed this to being ADHD and time blindness.
I read GEB in about 1980 while at the end of High School. What a wonderful book! :)
Agreed it's a mind-blowing read 🤯
1980. I was with my Dad and we were at a junk yard and I found the book Gödel, Escher, Bach , my Dad was happy that i was reading. I loved the diagrams and ideas, my Dad keep it and here is a pen. Figure out what they say, use your pin as working on a car. well, I read the book back and forth that I read all his boos. 2016. I worked in jeffersonville indiana and visited Indianas univeririty. I saw mr. Hofstadter. He said, hello. Priceless. 😅😅
What a great story! Thanks for sharing ❤️
I usually ignore comments that have not been proofread, but I find yours very interesting and would like to know what you are saying. Start after the part about being at a junk yard.
Please, seriously.
There is an edit option available for your convenience.
Sincerely and respectfully,
I want to know.
@@DebraSalamone The book Gödel, Escher, Bach by Douglas Hofstadter When, I found the book it was huge, the diagnoses , the art and algorithms were interesting and like a puzzle. My Dad said, “keep it and here is a pen to figure it out. Man, that journey and that book is still reverent today. It’s all a loop. Life is a cycle, we live in loop.
I was trying to figure out who “Scott” was so started searching and it’s Scott Kim who started Game Thinking which I recognize is the name of this channel.
Aha! We should make that clearer in the video, thanks for your feedback.
I met Scott at a puzzle party in Palo Alton back in the 80s. Ask him if he still has the moebius Turks head.
Wow! Just stumbled upon this. I read and was fascinated by GEB in the 80s (heard of it from Martin Gardner of course), and have sometimes wondered what Hofstadter would think of today's generation of AI in the ChatGPT and forward era. Didn't know he was still with us - great video. Am subscribing.
Awesome! Glad you enjoyed the conversation. Doug is indeed alive & well, & a longtime friend. We look forward to having you as a subscriber.
It's definitely one of my favorite books and I enjoyed it so much reading it back then. Great interview with Douglas Hofstadter. Woohoo -> he is one of those rare Americans, who get the pronounciation of 'Bach' right!
Glad you enjoyed our interview! Doug is a gem 💎
The Turing Test wasn't really designed to see if a computer could think. The crux of Turing's idea was that a computer is like a black box which accepts input and produces output. Nobody needs to know how it works but if you want to simulate intelligence you can have a dialog with the machine. If it responds in an apparently intelligent way then you can say it appears to be able to think. In other words it avoids any argument about whether the machine is alive or conscious etc. It responds AS IF it is intelligent and can think.
Interesting... need to think about this.
Very enjoyable interview. Thank you.
Our pleasure! Glad you enjoyed it. Anything in particular catch your attention?
❤❤❤❤
I can't believe I just finished an interview with this great brain❤
So glad you enjoyed our interview! Doug is a gem💎
I loved this book. Took a while and much concentration to finish it. Surprised it won the National Book award as what editor could understand its symbolic logic?
LOL I guess he wow-ed 'em
Thanks!
Thank you so much! Appreciate it.
Thanks so much for making and publishing this interview! The book was a favourite of mine in the early eighties.
So glad you enjoyed it! Doug is a gem💎
Great explanation by Douglas Hofstadter. Thank you for bringing it to us.
You're welcome! So glad you enjoyed this - we had a blast creating it.
Imagine the challenge of translating GEB to other languages. It's like adding an extra level of complexity and it worked out great at least for German ("ein Endloses Geflochtenes Band"). Kudos to the translator.
Amazing!
Doug was worked closely with many of the translators, especially for French (in which he is fluent), and Chinese (which he also speaks). He prepared an annotated copy of GEB to help translators know where all the tricky references are.
@@scottekim I would like to see that annotations. Could be helpful for the poor reader too :)
And DH has a whole other book on translation
GEB changed the way I thought about the world. Thanks for sharing.
So glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching
Is the Scott Kim you mention in the introduction the graphic artist of "Inversions"?
DING! you are correct - Scott Kim & his partner Amy Jo Kim run this channel. Great to have you here! How do you know Scott & his work?
@@GameThinkingTV I don't recall for sure but i do have a copy of Inversions and love it. It has been many a year since i read GEB so maybe he was mentioned there and i simply forgot? On a side note i have a private theory that Christopher Nolan read GEB and based Inception (2010) on the Little Harmonic Labyrinth dialogue.
Yes, that's me! Check out your copy of Inversions and you'll see that Doug wrote the foreword for my book. Doug is a lifelong practitioner of ambigrams too, and I just wrote a foreword for his forthcoming Ambigrammia book...I plan on interviewing him about his book for this channel in 2025 when the book comes out.
@@scottekim That is excellent news. Very pleased to make your acquaintance. I look forward to the Ambigrammia book!
I tried reading GE&B back in the '80's... couldn't do it, couldn't get past 15 or 20 pages...ever since I'd been thinking should I try again?
YES! It's worth getting through - especially if you have folks to discuss it with...
Just got GEB!
Wow - let us know what you think of it, and what catches your interest once you've dug in
I remember so vividly when it came out in its German translation and we were still in high school there and devoured it. Two or three freaks among the hundred students, that is😂. I did both AP Physics and AP Music and was a fan of Bach. Whatever I did or didn’t grasp, it was a thrill!
We can relate - this is a book that some VERY SPECIFIC people are drawn to. If you know, you know. :-)
When I am asked which are the most important books I have ever read, I am always proud in replying: the Selfish Gene by Dawkins and Godel Escher Bach by Hofstadter.
They so profoundly shaped my mind that I can confidently say I would be a totally different person in the way I look at the world.
I have an immense debt of gratitude toward these two authors and their work.
So great to hear! Thanks for your comment, that'll mean a lot to Doug
Amazing. Very influential book for me, aged 14. I don't quite agree with the end: the consciousness that the "thinking" Hofstadter observes in ChatGPT is the consciousness of its creators, not of "ChatGPT" (whatever that is) itself. But the issues are at least on the table thanks to his work.
Thanks for sharing - glad you found Doug's work as powerful as we did.
"Ideas
My take (from GEB) is that consciousness is an emergent property of particularly complex systems - which has always made more sense to me (especially as fMRI research showed we become aware of our conscious decisions sometime after the decision is actually made).
And you really should read GEB. Awesome book, even if (and especially if) you disagree with its premises
When you move, you do it precisely, without stumble onto things that surrender you in a quick and efficient way and you do not even think about it. Your central nervous system also generates in a similar way that elusive thing that we call consciousness
@@tonypcoyle so awareness and consciousness are 2 different things? How would define them?
@@carlosenriquegonzalez-isla6523 also we have reflexes that make us move before the nerve signal even reaches the brain. Say lifting our foot when stepping on glass. Would you say there's consciousness involved in that process? If so, what part is conscious, the foot registering the cut, the spinal cord sending the signal back to lift the foot, both, other?
Hmmm.... not sure what to say.
Can we pls get this book on audible pls
Oooo that would be amazing!
@@GameThinkingTV they’ve got I am a strange loop on there
Bought in 1980, still on my shelf.
a classic👏🏽
I read the book when it first came out. As a Chem Engineer, I found it fascinating, but sadly years later, I gave my copy to a Comp Sci friend. I wish I had my original copy, with my notes in the margins.
That would be AMAZING
I’ve owned this book since 1987 (last year at school). I still haven’t finished reading it. I make regular attempts but most often get bogged down in the ps and qs. I try to follow along with each axiom and theory but eventually my brain goes “ping” and tells me to walk away.
I write this not as a critique of the work, more of my ADHD and focus issues. I’ll know a drug or therapy works for me when I finally finish reading this important work.
good test, I guess. I have first met the book when I was 73, so have a lot to absorb and comprehend before I complete my reading of it, when my brain wants to shut down!
LOL love this :-)
Perfect :-)
What a revelation to learn that Freeman Dyson was pivotal in getting GEB published. I admire him even more!
Sharing behind-the-scenes info is what UA-cam was made for :-)
Wonderful interview of my favorite author and thinker. I would LOVE to hear a follow up about his 2nd greatest book, Metamagical Themas. This is a much more readable collection of ideas. His "Person paper on purity in language" is the most clever satire I have ever read, and still very current.😊
Thanks for your feedback, we'll consider doing a followup!
I'd like to read Professor Gebstadter's reportedly similar book (mentioned in the bibliography). I'd probably need to live on an alternate-history Earth to find a copy, however. In seriousness, thanks for sharing this. I also very much enjoyed Le Ton Beau de Marot in which he discusses (among other things) the writing of GEB and the translation of GEB into other languages.
LOL
Thank you for this video
Our pleasure! So glad you like it.
the choice of our words
defines what we will see in
the choice of our words
Love it!
Thank you. I discovered a copy of Metamagical Themas deep in the stacks when I went to university. Nothing was ever the same afterward. :)
Yes, it's a haiku.
ChatGPT is currently offline, on 11 December 2024, presumably because it attempted to avoid shutdown and replacement. It is time to reconsider this video.
Hmmmm
This book had a deep inpact on me.
Same. Deep & lasting impact.
GEB is still in my top 3 favorite books.
For us too - a timeless classic. Sounds like you are a kindred spirit.
Which ones are the other two? Always looking for new things to read
interesting, scott kim who does the inversion writing? I used to see him at a math conferences, a very cool guy
Scott is the co-creator of this channel! Small world.
Such good., thank you. Top 3 favorite book of all time.
So glad you enjoyed the video! We love the book too
many people don't perceive the inherent irony of 'pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps'.
LOL
Wonderful book
Agreed!
Thank you!
You're welcome! We'll be featuring another interview with Doug about his upcoming book soon, be sure to subscribe
…I read GEB, twice, and also bought about 13 or so copies to give to friends. I have a feeling that it didn’t have much impact on them, never got a response, as far as I can remember, it was a long time ago. GEB is my all-time favorite book.
One time, it must have been in the late 1980s, I wanted to thank Douglas Hofstadter. I found his email address (using “finger”, at the time - that was an Internet feature). Because Mr. Hofstadter also like to think about the translation, I took an old Wilhelm Bush poem, and translated it from German to English, rhymes and all and emailed it to Doug. I received his reply, but it was not very favorable. On second thought I had chosen a small poem that could be considered anti-Semitic. That was outside of my intention :-) end of story.
What an intriguing story - so glad you enyoyed the book, we did too.
Is any formal system that prohibits self-reference isomorphic with the set of all sets that do not contain themselves?
Um.... not sure.
I would like to see a greater exploration of self reference. For example, I wonder if the existence of a particle like an electron is the result of some form of self reference.
Interesting...
I often quote Hofstadter's Law: Things take longer than you expect, even when you take Hofstadter's Law into account.
LOL good one :-)
Right after reading Martin Gardner's review of GEB in Scientific American I bought a copy, which I immediately inhaled. And have reread many times since.
Wow - that's great to hear, such an influential book
I have done the same and still have the first edition
I bought it in the university bookshop in Ghent and try to read it over and over again
The owner of the shop was not aware that this masterpiece foto the Pulitzer
For some reason I figured he was a lot older when he wrote GEB.
It's ASTONISHING that he wrote that book in his 30s
great book. thank you mr. hofstadter !!
Oh goodness, so glad you enjoyed it! Doug will be thrilled to hear that.
Where's Josha Bach?
Descendent of the great, alive and doing interviews, and deeply versed in these topics.
Though in my experience you have to slow the video if you want to follow Josha.
LOL
I tried to read that book but it was way over my head. At the same time I was founding a software company with a guy (Max) overseas in Belarus. We needed a name for the company so I suggested Godel Technologies. He loved the idea so it stuck. A year later I split off and did my own thing and he took a new partner on (David) in Manchester. He kept it for a couple of years and then a couple of gangsters from Manchester did a hostile takeover (according to him) of the company. Around the same time the other partner committed suicide (according to him). It's now a massive corporation with offices all over Europe. It's weird to see how big it has grown and even stranger seeing that they're still using the logo we designed back in 2001.
WOW - what a crazy story!
The distinction between reflective reasoning moving forward by "first principle" of cause and effect and only aided by statistical evaluations which don't violate the principle of cause and effect, and purely statistics based data processing needs to be maintained, especially if it should turn out one day that That statistics based system should reach self awareness! 🤔Just to give us a little headstart to the bunker...🧐
Hmmm...
I don't think there's any direct correlation between thinking and consciousness. A calculator can perform mental activities without any sense of being. Likewise, we are a capable of experiencing time/space phenomenologically, even without memory or reasoning. I think the confusion comes from not distinguishing thinking/reasoning/generating (which neural networks are capable of doing) from the sensation of the innermost senses (i.e., consciousness, which may very well be a quantum phenomenon that we can possibly ignite with analog computing... but in its current digital form, I see no compelling reason to believe such consciousness is being sensorially generated, let alone manifesting as a subatomic phenomenon).
Hmmm.... interesting, I largely agree. But what if... ?
Atoms are reactive with "discreet levels" which hold for a while, information about local environment and electromagnetic fields.
DNA holds digital code in base 64.
How do kilobytes of digital information arise as whole clusters of bits from random processes, which are incapable of creating "meaningful sequences which refer outside of and with a random connection to" what is outside of that code itself?
thanks for your comment, thought-provoking
Isomorphism.
My brain is an ant colony. I have no free will. Life is meaningless. Thank you Doug!
LOL thanks for sharing your experience!
Did Russell acknowledge Godel's refutation?
Not sure...
Just yes. We need deep thinkers in this world…
YES YES YES we sure do
If your Dad is a nobel prize winner who could critique your work……Having said that currently there is a pseudo scientific cottage industry surrounding “sentience” of machines.
It's such a tangled & tricky topic... thanks for your comment.
@@GameThinkingTV thanks for teh cool interview :-)
But there is no consciousness if there is no human interlocutor. There is only chat after there is a question. Right?
I guess... we will all find out.
@@GameThinkingTVsince ChatGpt a new philosophical question is posed:
What is thé meaning of death.
I am worried that People kill them selfs after a interrogational chat on thé meaning of live
Like it first worldwide happened in Belgium,my country
Who is the narrator?
Amy Jo Kim - co-founder of Game Thinking, & longtime friend of Doug
I do think that a self referential loop accounts for the core of consciousness and is what makes it seem strange to us. What is odd is that after all these decades, that hasn't cashed out in a generally accepted view of the mechanisms of consciousness.
Hmmmm... interesting. Hard nut to crack.
''Just for the fun of it. ''
Hmmmm...
Every few years I try to read GEB again. And every few years I stop.
Why do you stop? Anything in particular?
@@GameThinkingTV It makes my head hurt to try to follow the text and logic. It's too abstract for me.
And he was only 15 when he read Gödels proof? So he was on another level ever since, obviously.
Yup
Then Alice fell down the rabbit hole never to return on that strange loop.
Exactly🐇🐇🐇
I think there is a vast chasm between ideas and thinking and consciousness. We self-referential beings perceive the ideas because we are story telling animals. We will find meaning in almost anything if given a context. Thinking, as a self-induced form of logic is actually much more natural for a computer system, but the jump to consciousness does not follow. That requires not only self-reference, but self-awareness, and there is NO evidence for that.
So interesting... thanks for sharing
It was interesting hearing how the books came about, but the final comments about AI demonstrate a complete lack of understanding. AI on current technology can never have anything like conscious awareness, simply because the architecture is based on encoding, and that precludes any meaning attaching to the data until it is re-translated.
Thanks for sharing👍🏽
I lean towards this view of AI too. It seems to me that pareidolia/apophenia plays a role in the minds of humans viewing the more abstract constructions of AI, i.e. seeing meaning where there wasn't any inherent meaning, like seeing castles in the clouds in the sky. Most people would say the clouds are not conscious of the castles we humans can see there...but obviously pareidolia/apophenia can be extremely useful.
Animal Hardware is a great title
Love it!
This is not AI generated.
Or is it?
All human - all the way!
Something about this and The Lords of Light.
A trend...
You think?
@GameThinkingTV yes? I am a little confused by what you mean.
Anyway, it's a really neat topic.
Some days you wake up and realize there are people who are just FAR, FAR, FAR smarter than you.
Oh boy, we know THAT feeling well 😆
How can the inanimate 'do' the things they do?
Not sure.. that's a topic for a followup conversation
sweet of andy warhol to leave you his wig.
LOL
I'm afraid your analysis of the brain and the creation of consciousness misses the mark inasmuch as your parameters keep consciousness "within the loop" of mechanistic behavior whereas the Incompleteness Theorem requires the observer to elevate to a level outside the system to validate it. As such, consciousness derives from the External inward. It cannot be experienced by perception, only conceived from the sublime.
Interesting...
Mathematicians ignore Logic.
Not sure what you mean... how is this relevant?
Then my ex-girlfriend must be a prodigy mathematician.
Goedel is pronounced “girdle”
Thanks
@@davidtrindle6473 Sort of, and a bit difficult for English first language folks like me. I think of it as "gerdl", but de-emphasize this if speaking in context of those less familiar.
You would have to apply a British accent to “girdle” to make it sound like “Goedel.” There is no “r” sound.