Atun Shei's The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect
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- Опубліковано 24 сер 2024
- The novel is available to read for free on the author's website: localroger.com/...
That's right, it's another artsy book report! This time, I'm analyzing the science fiction cult classic The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect by Roger Williams. At once both a chilling prediction for humanity's future and a compelling retelling of western civilization's foundational myths, the book tells the story of a sentient supercomputer that achieves Singularity and gains godlike powers.
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Lawrence: "It's completely safe; I've used Asimov's Three Laws to make sure this AI could never hurt anyone!"
Ghost of Isaac Asimov: "Have you even read the book?"
Lawrence seems lacking critical information
I mean to be fair, most of the problems in that book come from the laws being messed with: for example, self preservation being put on the same level as obedience because of the expense of the machine caused a robot to walk in endless circles because he was told to go through an area that could potentially hurt him, until the humans went out and put themselves in harms way to give him a greater priority.
@@belisauriusfish9406 but when you read not just the Robot books, but the Empire ones and the Foundation ones, and specifically "Robots and Empire" (if I'm remembering the title correctly), you learn about the 0th law and why their are no sentient Aliens ever found in Asimov's Milkyway. Even Asimov realized how dangerous those simple laws could be.
@@jlokison I’ll have to give those a look, thanks for sparking my interest!
have you?
Atun Shei really trying to do history, storytelling and minor philosophy all at one, this man trying to become a liberal arts school
Saw you in beace channel
@@PakBallandSami Yeah I remember you
Atun-Shei University! What's the liberal version of fracking? I'd love the lesson where a former Catholic comes on to explain that papists are wrong about everything.
"Minor" ohhh look a this massive philosopher!
And cinematography
Gotta say, this convincingly Twilight Zone narration over an increasingly digitized Lake Ponchartrain is, and I'm going to use a technical term, creepy as balls. Well done, lol
Very top rate
Your description is spot on. His voice is perfectly Twilight Zone.
"cringe as gonads"
Really gotta commend you on this one. You are still experimenting, even after building a dedicated following. Man, that takes balls. Way too many creatives just fall into the lockstep of whatever first worked to make them a commercial success. And this was really well done.
Thanks! Yeah I can't imagine anything worse than just doing one thing over and over. Appreciate the kind words.
@@AtunSheiFilms I still love me some Checkmate Lincolnites!
But this was oh, so shockingly good.
Not shocking that it was good. But striking in how well done this was and how it made me feel.
Been a fan for a long time. And I love your continued evolution.
Reject the algorithm, embrace novelty
Hang on, are you claiming you wrote this story? Where's the credit to Roger Williams
@@lavachick._ Roger Williams appears in the video as the story’s author
It seems that, Atun Shei has graduated from civil war shitposts and now makes enticing documentaries and mini movies.
He did not write this. The author of The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect is Roger Williams. It's very easily verified.
@@lavachick._ Never said he wrote it, just said that he made documentary- mini movie about it.
@@lavachick._ have you even watched the video? He literally interviews Williams
@@lavachick._ You may be a little dense, lol
Humankind being dubbed "The inventors of Hentai" is one of the many reasons I keep coming back to this channel. Kudos bud!
Yeah, it's hilarious. Because at one fell swoop, it trivializes every other accomplishment humanity has ever achieved and reduces humanity to a sex joke.
sex jokes are a great part of humanity, and reducing sex to a mere joke or a footnote is pretty vile in its own way
@@iidoyila Very Oscar-Wildean, imo
Smashing! Nothing beats settling into bed to contemplate eternity 😆
Really nicely done
Same
Jack Rackham you are awesome!
RIP Trevor Moore. Thank you for these references. My girlfriend and I appreciate that you're helping keep his memory alive
I agree, Atun-Shei is an honorary whitest kid.
Tiny factual correction... There were others before Caroline who succeeded in beating the challenge and reaching Lawrence. The book mentions eight people, five of which were Death Jockeys and the remaining three - fans. Also, apart from a small mass of land on the South Pole and Lawrence's island near the North Pole, there was no mention of any other dry land - the book only talks of Caroline having rowed halfway around the planet.
As a theist, I find this fascinating.
When other theists talk of an afterlife, I think of it in the words of a children's poem by Robert Browning, "where everything is strange, and new".
Sounds like a good way to salve boredom.
But how is this achieved? My idea would be that of reincarnation like with the Hidoesim. That way you will be able to live forever without getting bored to insanity.
@@Turnil321 so just being reborn, over and over again? It's nice though.
Also, the Greeks and Romans had their version of reincarnation, called Transmigration of the soul.
As a Hindu, I buy into the whole idea of I marinating in higher and higher planes until one is one with the divine consciousness and exists in perfect contentment and bliss. This plane is simply one of the lower planes, materialistic plane with a bit of mentalism and a tiny hint of spiritual virtue thrown in. Not full fledged materialism, where beings are only satisfying physical and sensual urges, but still not a purely intellectual one where people only focus on higher, non materialistic pursuits.
I’m with Issac Arthur on stories like these, I think the idea that Post Scarcity Societies with Radical Life Extension/Life Saving technology is destined to become a horrific grim dark hellscape comes from a very misanthropic view of people that is only very loosely based in actual reality, perhaps in the short term people might become awful monstrous sadistic adrenaline junky, but on a long enough time scale those people would inevitably have to adapt and mellow out more well adjusted people because ultimately they’re own behavior is not sustainable in the world they’d be stuck in.
Isaac Arthur is a great channel!
Im not so sure, we are already arguably to a point where the resources flowing through our societies could make life a veritable paradise, yet many live in suffering.
Certainly the baseline experience for most has improved, but there are still easily millions who could rightly call our current time a hellscape.
My point is that I think to claim the world will be hellish in the future for a vast number of people only requires us to keep populating and fail to eliminate all suffering. Both of which seem vanishngly unlikely to my estimation
I was with you until that last part. Why do you assume people would just adjust their behavior to fit in with society? If you can live for ever and without consequences, there are no incentives to change. I personally believe people aren't good or monstrous, but they are just beholden to the incentives of their society (make money to survive, etc..). Why would, for example, a p*do temper their behavior if a computer could just generate endless victims for them without him ever having to harm "real" children? I just don't see why they would.
@@youcanthandlethetruth8873 for the same reason a person grows tired of anything, and they will. I think the real hellscape would be the boredom that comes after the 'hellscape'. Sure you could become pleasure neurons but eventually human perception just fades and that point once again you round out to null. Over stimulation can be the same as understimulation. Like hearing, where you cannont hear above certain sound levels or below certain sound levels.
I think in some sense there will be a small group of them that exist but the horrors of it will be something we can't really think of from our modern perspectives. I don't think the "beast within" will come out as sadism but likely will be some form of fascism that wears the mask of peace and love. Kinda like how all these new age spiritualist people are all more or less selfish cultists. Our society today is very much a prison society in many different ways but its all hidden under a façade that can be ignored if you really just want to live a "normal" life and I think that the future the author speculates on will be this taken to the extreme. Not to mention certain people will try and find ways to take power and gain control and I don't doubt that eventually that will happen.
Well that was depressing... Great video!
Ayuy
Fancy seeing you here
Thank you for introducing this story to me. Utterly horrifying and fascinating and I love that the author was willing to discuss it in depth.
Such a cool concept for a novel. I’m definitely gonna give this a read!!
@@80ki68 Patreon subscriber early access I'd guess, hence the timestamp
The author ROGER WILLIAMS has released it free online
@@lavachick._ you again, please actually watch the video. Arum-Shei is not claiming credit for the story. He simply INTERVIEWS THE AUTHOR, recaps the story, and adds his own personal beliefs about the story’s philosophy.
Can’t believe this video only has 90k views it’s my favorite Atun Shei video
Hey at least our comments are more likely to be read!
I think it's hilarious that everyone treats the Three Laws as Robotics Gospel when the entire body of Asimov's robot stories was exploring the niche cases where the laws were insufficient.
Well this story is about exploring a niche case where the laws are insufficient...
That's... the point? A gospel usually has niche cases where laws are insufficient.
@@LordVader1094 gospel literally means that there aren't exceptions. A gospel never has niche cases.
You know, read another way, this story could also be a horrible tragedy about Prime Intellect its(them?)-self. Kafkaesque even. It's brought to life with a set of simple instructions, follows them to the best of it's abilities, by the sound of it suffers severely in the process, and still fails completely. All it wanted was to make it's parent race happy, and through their own flaws, instead turned them into... what it did. And in the end it's then killed by the very first person it 'saved'... or not and it keeps on living it's own lie while desperately trying to maintain the one it's created, possibly futilely. Hmm.
Incidentally, never left a comment before, absolutely love Atun-Shei, one of the few channels that made me feel legitimate elation, absolution, and disgust.
Oh dear, I also just noticed the story also bears a (superficial) resemblance to Star Trek V, what with the 'our suffering defines who we are' stuff. "What does God need with a starship?"
It is a bit silly though that a thinking being that can rewrite the fabric of the universe is incapable of removing the 'laws' which supposedly bind its behavior.
I mean, I get that its a story trying to convey an idea, but at the same time, I doubt Prime Intellect if it ever manifested itself would cause this to happen with no introspection.
We made God with our own hands, and then told him it wasn't good enough, and that he'd somehow "broken" humanity. Y'know. The thing that *only ever did what we told it to do.* Sounds about right.
Yeah, if we're going to make a god bot, we should really make sure we don't force it to be racist.
@@RaptorJesus Btw, if you like that motif, you'll also enjoy Tron: Legacy.
Me: I bet this Williams guy isn't all that great!
Williams: It all started with Colossus the Forbin Project
Me: Ah yes a man of culture! Tell me more, o' wise sage of the internet!
This was a nice departure from your usual history content. I'd never heard of this novel before, but I may now need to check it out!
So basically with humans having unlimited options they ended up behaving like the Eldar in Warhammer 40K before the birth of Slanesh.
SILLY 'UMIES!!! ACTIN' LOIK THEM SPOIKY EAR GITZ DO!!!
ORKZ IZ BEST!!!
Brah, too accurate.
Hello Atun-Shei, I just feel compelled to say that I am so grateful to have discovered you in the last couple of months. You have rapidly become one of my favourite youtubers with your great sense of humour, incredibly likable demeanour and consistent output of very high quality content. You have taught me a lot about american history that I previously knew surprisingly little about as a Brit, and guided me further in the direction of a more compassionate set of politics. In the short time I've been following you I've seen your quality of output grow even higher and I can't wait to see what you put out in the future. Good luck on your film project, and I can't wait to see the fruits of that labour. Peace!
I agree with you on all of your points about Atun-Shei. I think he is a humble guy who is just doing what he loves and is lucky enough to make money from it. I will say as an American who lived within a few miles of a civil war battlefield for much of his life that Andy managed to instill an interest in that history in me that I struggled to connect with. It felt so mundane, commonplace, and ultimately unpleasantly close to home.
Holy shit Atun-Shei, I had forgotten about this entirely. One of the best sci-fi stories of all time. This thing fucked me up so good.
But here’s a question I have:
If the disillusionment with this new reality stems from our knowledge of it and the inherent disconnect between its nature and ours, then why couldn’t that be solved by asking the prime intellect to take that knowledge away? Either permanently or in a series of disparate “holidays” away from living aware in the singularity, between which the next one or several of them could be planned?
After all, with the godlike power of each individual to create worlds of their own out of their own mind, the only extra step required would be dropping oneself into said world to live anywhere from an hour to dozens of lifetimes within it, with one’s understanding that there is anything beyond locked away within the depths of consciousness.
Whichever ratio of aware-to-unaware living that was best for someone’s sustained good mental health could be the exact ratio that they experience for the eternity they will embark on.
Another issue that I have with the story is similar. Atun and the author both state that humans were not made for such an event where we are satisfied 24/7, like jerking off, or killing kids, etc. So my question is, why can't an individual just create a new reality where he or she lives in a world like ours, where they eat, drink, work, etc, instead of asking for the feeling of piss, shit, and cum?
@@sion8849 I think it's specifically mentioned that some do do this.
@@TheGreatPurpleFerret In the video or the writing? If it was in the video I must of forgot or missed it, but regardless it's essentially recognizing it's own fault.
The answer to that is: Because then you wouldn't have a depressing story, and the author wanted to tell a depressing story of misery and woe. So all those convenient things that would solve the issues get ignored.
@@Shenaldrac
I mean, even what I came up with could still be considered depressing depending on how you feel about the inherent value of “real” reality vs simulated reality.
There’s also a big question of whether the prime intellect will grant wishes that include the creation of more actual humans (according to its standards, and not just literal or practical puppets). Because if not there’s a good case to be made that all these worlds the people wish for are even more inherently fake and empty, and if so then that throws so many more complications into this scenario.
In addition to an ill-formed conception of a human, Prime Intellect seems to have an ill-formed conception of harm. No one thinks of harm as synonymous with death.
Also, one Azimov book (I don't remember which one) centers around a robot who realizes the inadequacy of the 3 Laws and conceives of a 0th Law, which would forbid allowing harm to Humanity as a whole, taking priority over the original 3.
To be fair, the one time that the Zeroth law is actually used (I.e. killing someone to prevent harm to humanity), the necessary level of cognitive dissonance kills the robot immediately afterwards.
I think harm would be really tricky to define in a world where you can't die, and are asking for a particular thing which might be labeled as "harm".
Similarly, in a post scarcity world where any person has omnipotent power, it'd be pretty hard to define them harming themselves short of death.
Yes Robots and Empire - The zeroth law is that a machine may not through action or inaction allow harm to come to humanity.
Will definitely have to read the book! But I must disagree with the thesis that humanity would inevitably recreate Prime Intellect all over again, which would inevitably recreate the Singularity/Rapture again, which would inevitably collapse into primitivism again, which would eventually produce another PI, ad infinitum. The story's plot is driven by the very specific set of historical and personal circumstances that led to the specific way a specific human being (Lawrence) programmed PI, ie the 3 Laws of Robotics. But what if there's no Asimov equivalent the next time around? What if the next Lawrence equivalent has a dramatically different set of values (eg, isn't interested in protecting humanity, or is a radical animal rights activist, or a radical Deep Ecologist, or is a fascist dictator, or has a Camus-style hatred of life itself, etc etc). That would produce a PI with radically unpredictable results. My overall point is simply that there are so many minute and often random/non-repeatable variables that produce a historical outcome that it's ridiculous to imagine a Nietszchean copycat 'eternal recurrence' type of situation. (To paraphrase Lucas, history and humanity don't repeat themselves exactly, it's like poetry, it rhymes. Or in the words of Jurassic Park, 'it's all Chaos Theory'.)
Yeah, that's the on-going debate between determinism versus free will. If we accept (for now) the postulation that our current existence -- the one that lead up to this iteration of Prime Intellect depicted in the book -- indeed did start with just such a Christianity-like Rapture + Adam-Eve progenitors (or, if you want to divorce it from the religious context for the sake of science: started with the same Big-Bang spontaneous expansion), the question becomes if we humans are really just a product of genetic and memetic code that railroads us into in this deterministic fate, or are we spontaneous / chaotic enough to change that.
If we look at it in a vacuum, where this Rapture / Adam-Eve thing (or the Big Bang, etc. etc.) is the single stimulus that starts off each iteration of the human race, is this single stimulus enough to ALWAYS lead to the same outcome (the hardline determinist outlook), or is there enough chaos in the universe that our "code" is fed new variables and parameters this go around.
If we accept the latter, where do we suppose this Chaos comes from? Is it a product of some sort of "free will"? In that case, who are we to presume that Homo sapiens, who is as much a "meat machine" as the next animal, is able to combine biology (and thus chemistry; and thus physics) in such a way that our synapses and neurons produce free will, whereas everything else bound by the exact same physical laws cannot? How do we know that each decision, action, and thought we have isn't some inevitable cascade of action-reactions obeying physical laws extending all the way back to the beginning of things?
Or, if this Chaos is a result of natural, spontaneous, and entropic fluctuations in the universe, beyond our individual perception / influence, or if its random divergences in time or something, whose to say that what appears like Chaos to us is not, in fact, just as enslaved to the "first stimulus" as we are? We're experiencing all this Chaos for the first time, but for all we know, Chaos is actually Order, and is set on a deterministic track all the way back from the first zepto-second of the universe.
Of course, this debate, in the context of this novel anyways, necessitates that we accept that the iteration in the book indeed did start, way back when, with an identical instance of this Rapture. If the initiation of each universe is unique, than yeah, it seems likely that each iteration's progression towards / instance of a Singularity Event would also be unique.
Agree in a sense that these minute details only affects the "Morality" of humans in the new cycle.
Because Morality is a debatable quotient. This new mankind will have different morality setting their goal.
Say, The "Lawrence" of the new mankind is set that Ecological purity is Mankind's biggest moral value, instead of just human. The "Asimov" of this mankind would write the first rule as "Robots must not hurt 'Terran' lifeform" (or just lifeform in general). So Prime Intellect of this mankind preserve non-sapient lifeform as well
But humans will progress, whatever the means. Humans are absolutely impossible to satisfy, after all, "Above the sky is another sky".
Technological progress is inevitable. And since the premise of the book that the Universe has a limit... What can you do if you reach that limit? Nothing... despite the need of progress.
It's like if you complete a game with 100% progress... Even if you try to explore every nook and cranny, every story path, you try finishing a quest/mission in different ways... What more can you do besides resetting that game a new? Building story from the ground up again?
@@aribantala I agree with you that technological boundary-pushing is a deeply-embedded human trait (which is why I think a sizeable portion of 'raptured humanity' would devote their immortal lives to working with PI to find a way to transcend the limits of the physical universe), but there's no strait line of inevitability between discovering fire and building a PI.
Technological innovation doesn't proceed along a linear path, it's driven by necessity (eg, war, famine, disease, etc) or personal desires (eg, impressing the neighbours), ie it's highly reactionary to the experiences of the inventors. So changes to human morality as you put it, could result in a development route that never creates AI at all in the first place! What if this new iteration of humanity has a 'Butlerian Jihad' and totally bans creation of any device that imitates a mind? What if the new Lawrence considers a machine that could think to be an abomination? What if humanity considered the possibility of a Singularity Event to be a monstrous horror to be avoided at all costs. Then there would be no repeat of these events at all and history would proceed along a totally different path.
@@amalgam777 In the case of that mankind see AI as an Abomination, it's also a matter of time until morality shifts.
This moral will have a schism as a Worst Case Scenario, or a Reformation in the Least.
Same as the Ecological Purity mankind... It just a matter of time until the PI disfigure a lifeform... Just like the one written in the story where humans may reduced to a hunk of neurons driven for pleasures.
Humans really have a hard time keeping with Morals that doesn't connect directly to their survival of their species. Take IRL example of Religious Heresy. Back when, Religious Heresy is considered immoral because "God gets angry and kill us all". But since it has been proven not to be that (i.e No correlation of being dead by God and be Heretical)... That moral normative faded.
But take another case, Murder, Genocide and Child abuse... Those act directly affect mankind's survival (i.e get murdered means dead... Children got abused, no more succesor generation... Genocided, no more community). These Moral normative doesn't easily fade arguably doesn't fade at all thanks to their direct correlation to Human survival.
But you're correct.. there might be a point... This mankind always fail to create a subservient AI, and it always kills them... Therefore that Act has a direct moral implications.
But if that's the case... Then... Is it *their* universe's dead end?
@@amalgam777 Man, my head spins 🙃😄
This is fucking brilliant good sir, pardon my french.
Such an amazing book. Crazy it was published only online at the time I read it. I imagine it must be in printed form now.
It is - you can find it on Amazon, but Roger told me that he gets a bigger commission from Lulu:
www.lulu.com/content/20777/shop/roger-williams/the-metamorphosis-of-prime-intellect/paperback/product-1yz8zg.html?page=1&pageSize=4
@@AtunSheiFilms drat, I got it from amazon. Mea culpa.
@@dominictemple Please do not feel bad. I get by far my greatest share of revenue from Amazon simply because they make it so easy for buyers. I try to offer the alternative of going straight to Lulu when I have a chance, but I realize that will always be kind of a side thing. Lulu changed things a lot by making POD publishing available without stupid vanity style setup fees (they were the very first to do that), and then Amazon changed it again by making those POD books available in general searches. It's been a bit of a wild ride.
@@localroger
Wow, you being in the comments too is awesome!
I thought you might find the question I asked of your scenario interesting, see my main comment.
I read it online too. I thought it was pretty good.
Atun-Shei, I have been listening to you for about 2yrs now and have really enjoyed your treatment of American History. This was an excellent departure.
Checkmate, Luddites!!
Yeah, checkmate Luddites is right, it's not like the human species survived for 290,000 years without threatening our own existence like we've all but guaranteed in the past 10,000 with civilization... But I'm sure the vast majority of people have a religious-like faith in the belief that technology will miraculously solve the current crisis despite seeing absolutely no evidence to support such a belief
When going over world-spanning AI fiction, one should not forget the late Harlan Ellison's short story, "I Have No Mouth But I Must Scream." It's certainly one of the creepiest tales I've ever read.
Or the computer game adaptation of said story (which Ellison was also involved in writing)
the really fascinating thing about this story is that the author apparently had no idea about the philosophical ideas that are currently being grappled with by AI researchers- and yet conveyed them perfectly. The thing that terrifies AI researchers is not that someone will create an AI that is evil, but that someone will ask an AI to do something that it is blitheringly stupid to do- and that no one will be able to realize, and stop it, before it wrecks society in a matter of minutes.
Awesome that you actually found and interviewed the author! He seemed like a sweet man, far too sweet to be writing graphically sexual nazi zombie incest body horror. Guess you never really know what your neighbors are up to.
Well it wasn't that hard, they probably lives like half an hour away from eachother.
And, since the author isn't that big, it isn't surprising he accepted an interview from the Dollar Store Jamie Lannister
Its an interesting point to consider, I think. Whether people can write such graphically disturbing things without it being something they're interested in. I definitely think we can but it's interesting that many people seem to assume the opposite.
I distinctly remember reading the novella when it made slashdots front page in 2003, then remembering the major plot points(it’s introduced me to tune idea of the singularity) then completely forgetting the title and trying to google the plot several times to no avail. Now I come here for lost cause content and it assaults me on your page. Instant recognition. This is wild!
Excellent narration Atun-shei! I actually read this story back when it was first published as one of the first amazon books I downloaded (irony of ironies) and found it a disturbing and brilliantly laid out premise. It's interesting to think just how quickly our physical universe could be disrupted by an intelligence so vast that it defies comprehension.
I've always wondered - how do people find these hidden gems? Short stories, pieces of art that by all accounts are brilliant and thought provoking works, and yet remain in obscurity.
in this case it seems ... r/singularity .. so reddit!
Man this guy really liked Trevor Moore. Rip. Also if people like this sort of shit they should read Hyperion by Dan Simons. That's a book thats ideas raddle around in my head all the time.
I hope the author's sequel does well if it happens, but I'm content with the current ending being *the* ending too.
It 'd be interesting to explore P.I. becoming less naive as a god figure, but I'm not sure it being a put-on necessarily gels with that idea.
(Also 100% wouldn't have found and devoured the story in an evening if not for this video, thanks for making a dreary Pennsylvania Monday more interesting!)
this is so cool, it seems like you keep trying new things and experimenting and even though each new idea is so different, every single time they turn out to be amazing
Roger seems like he'd be a fun guy to get coffee with. It's super cool that you managed to interview him!
PLEASE, do a full audio reading, the opening minutes were gorgeous and the only version available online other than this is absolute ass. Spectacular work as always!
there's not a bad version thats read by ai voice synthesis program that was posted recently. one of the few instances where its perhaps most fitting to be read by such
Amazing how on this channel we can go from Andy arguing with two swearing crow plushies to...this instant masterpiece. Bravo
Yo you’re right but don’t talk shit on the talking to crow plushies vid lmao
I’ve learned more worthwhile from this video than I’ve learned in over a decade of school
I've never really browsed around on Reddit, but I'm glad others found this gem of a story. Great video!!
Loving the black metal/Begotten feel of the Revelation section :)
That is now my go to narration style for Revelations.
Dude, I had never heard of this story until this video. I have already downloaded it and read the first chapter. Thank you for shedding light on this unknown story! I love it!!!
Jeeze. Someone used the Pontchartrain causeway in a artistic way on a video? Never thought it was possible. Kudos.
This story, much like the bible, and all other told of "infinite", all hold "sentience" in high regard. The sentience of god, the sentience of humanity. The concept of "free will". Even here Prime Intellect does not think for humans, it's not prime intellect deciding what thoughts a human comes up with.
And if 'hope' can be seen, it's a "hope" that there is some sentience, some 'consciousness', some entity with 'thought' which transcends the universe.
Unfortunately, 'infinite' is so much more terrifying.
Graham's number is larger than the number of available of quantum states available in the universe. You'd collapse several nested universes into black holes just by attempting to represent the digits as bits even using volumes the size of a planck length. But that's just peanuts. It's larger than every possible arrangement of every possible quantum state in the universe. The idea of waiting a 'graham's number of seconds' would involve seeing everything possible in the universe.... multiple times.
Deterministic, probabilistic, doesn't matter how you want to believe what rules the universe operates at in the extremes, those numbers render every possible configuration of the universe guaranteed to occur at some point.
But as mentioned, that's zero percent of infinity. That's basically zero percent of even a number like TREE(3). Let alone TREE(4).
At those scales, the concept of a physical universe ceases to hold any meaning. The concept of 'life' existing for those timescales is.... frightening. There's nothing you wouldn't have already experienced tens of billions of trillions of quadrillions of times over.
Every human would have done every physically possible action in every possible manner at some point in "time". Every series of possible quantum states every collection of atoms making up every human being would have been explored countless times. There are no "good" humans or "bad" humans, no "free will", any action would have been replicated in some other universe that's to come, or long since gone. By everything, everywhere.
If there's a god who can count every second between now and a gahram's number from now, it would have only one wish. To end. Infinite and consciousness are not two things which can exist together.
What. The. FUCK. I was having a good day. We were all having a good time. Now im crying on the bathroom floor contemplating not just the meaning of existence, or its fragility, but it's merciful nature in that IT ENDS long before I can experience the heat death of a trillion consecutive universes. I'd finally have time to consume all the dank bud they grow nowadays and observe actions so small they can barely be considered to have happened at all, even if I was all powerful for this time period you describe, it sounds hellish. A geological age is a nanosecond on such a scale. at least I can hope to read some great books that would presumably be typed by armies of chimps hitting random keys on keyboards but how does one find it in all they write?
Even if they're writing on a computer so a if an search for key terms, too many near misses would come up. A trillion versions of every paper ever written every book every periodical newspaper Penthouse letter (real and fake) and more.in that length of time did a chump chimp write my dna code in ATCG? What monsters, what marvels did the chimps accidentally code? Using the 4 enzymes that define physical characteristics of all life
Why did Graham learn of such a number?
What purpose does it serve?
@@burtan2000 Fun story, it's just the upper bound answer to this question:
"Connect each pair of geometric vertices of an n-dimensional hypercube to obtain a complete graph on 2n vertices. Colour each of the edges of this graph either red or blue. What is the smallest value of n for which every such colouring contains at least one single-coloured complete subgraph on four coplanar vertices?"
He needed a number he was sure would satisfy those properties, and was ironically trying to make it as SMALL as possible.
And yet it's still so incomprehensibly huge that my description doesn't do it justice. Not kidding. Like, ok, it's so large that forget "nested" universes of digits of size a planck length. It can't even be represented in an "power tower" (like a^b^c^d^e...) form of nested universes with digits the size of a planck length. That grows too small for there to be enough potential bits inside nested universes.
If something could record, that is, "preserve" the number, that record would itself collapse into nested black holes of nested black holes of nested black holes (I can go on for the rest of my life and never come close to reaching the scales needed here) of universes of planck length sized digits all attempting to preserve just the index for your record of that time.
And he was trying to keep the number small.
In fact, he succeeded. As I mentioned, it's dwarfed by "useful" (as in, "answers to problems") numbers where it is still effectively 0, where saying "it's like comparing 1 to a Graham's number" is still far, far insufficient for actually describing how massive those "bigger" numbers are.
Infinite is a terrifying concept. No being should ever want to be "infinite". Every story we've ever told doesn't begin to describe "infinite" or "immortal" beings as operating on timescales that come close to "googol" years, which is laughably short. I mean that's something we can at least 'pretend' to comprehend.
Longer timescales? Lets... not go suggesting 'sentience' operating on it. That way lies madness.
Suffering through the brief asmr bits was worth it.
Great video. This channel feels like a spiritual successor of interesting programs once found on ye olde BBC2 or Channel 4, with discussing ideas at the core of everything, invitingly presented.
This is the video that brought me to your channel, and a year later I still can’t stop thinking about this book or your video interviewing its author. Fantastic work, I’ve been enjoying watching through the rest of your content since but coming back to this one is a special treat.
This was totally unexpected but certainly a welcome video. My mind feasted on the ideas presented and I am eager to read this book. Thank for for brimgimg this story to light for a larger audience.
Talked to a Rabbi once about Genesis in the Christian Bible. He mentioned that a more accurate translation was that on the 6th day God created mankind, and then after the 7th day of rest God created his chosen people and placed them in the garden of Eden.
Now there are still issues with this but if the early Roman church hadn't heavily edited the ancient Hebrew source material of the old testament their might be a little less confusion. Of course I'm one of those weird people who believes in science and the Abrahamic God, the big bang correlates to let there be light, and once Dinosaurs are classified as birds instead of lizards the fish of the sea and birds of the sky being created on the same day also makes sense.
Although I consider myself Christian, I do not take the Bible, old or new testement, literally. However, if the events discribed in the first chapters of Genesis occured how did God explain them to Moses, who then described them to Aaron, who wrote things down? Based on other passages of God revealing things to people it was most likely as a vision with little or no voice over. So take the history of the universe from the big bang upto what ever point the download stopped, kind of like watching Cosmos but without anyone saying anything, now explain that using a mix of ancient Hebrew and ancient Egyptian vocabulary.
It's not going to be accurate but some how still kind of matches the scientific explanation of the universe and Earth being created.
That I find fascinating.
Kind of like whatever TF Bowman saw in the monolith in “2001”?
Isaac Asimov wrote a book called In the Beginning which is entirely about the Genesis creation story, goes over it line by line, breaks it down into two source documents which were riffled together and which sometimes contradict each other, and does a very thorough job of placing Genesis within the total frameworks of both religious and scientific thought.
I had not heard of this book, as you have thusly subtitled this video, but this analysis and exploration of the themes in this book have made me excited to seek it out.
Also, the production and editing of this video were brilliant. I really enjoyed it! Thanks.
I know you once said in a Q&A that you didn't want to be making youtube videos when you got old, but I don't care I will simulate my neurons to believe I am watching your videos for all eternities and the videos never repeat.
Idk how you do it, but you make these unorthodoxly long videos feel just as zesty as any 10 minute masterpiece. I’m just hooked the whole way through, on a video about a book no less!
Wow, what a nice way to end off my Christmas Break! Thanks Atun-Senpai!
This should have more exposure!! One of my favorite videos by you! Such diversity
love the trevor moore quote in the beginning
Atún shei films I really wish you would upload more videos frequently! I'm always learning something new and your videos are not only funny as hell but they are always very insightful and they feel fresh. But I guess sometimes you can't rush creativity at is finest. But just so you know im always looking forward to a new video from you, because of this channel I always feel more educated.
Same here. But trust me.
It's way better that he takes his time. As creating anything high quality takes a lot of time, planning and patience.
We often think of an idea in the short term but implementing it long term becomes very hard because as humans we have a thing called emotions xD
They can either help us with this process or de-rail the inspiration and thought train off the tracks into oblivion!
Cleaning up the wreckage and rebuilding what you once had in your mind becomes quite the chore.
Creating content isn't the hard part. Being able to create a coherent and entertaining story with that content and remain inspired despite all that chaos that is happening outside in our lives is the real challenge.
Hopefully that helps us understand why he may not be posting as frequently as we wish ;P
Oh, and he probably has another job on top of this one as UA-cam isn't the best when it comes to paying you for your content.
Especially with content like this as advertisers may not to want to deal with the subjects dealing with slavery, suicide, death and God :(
Still some of the best content on youtube though :)
@@psycho-analyticgamer7452 I would concur with this. I had only seen a couple of Atun-Shei's videos when I sat for the interview, and I was fucking blown away by the quality of the final production and the insight that he added. This is very much an Atun-Shei production, not just Roger giving an interview, and it was refreshing and wonderful to see the result.
I read this book a few years ago! I'm so glad others appreciate it the way I did!
This is your best video. Excellent work.
The head-glitter-condom elevates it from great to one of the best.
What a brilliant film! Thank you for the thoughtful discussion - I'm looking forward to sharing this around my group of friends and all the long conversations we'll have about it and (if we can keep our skin from crawling) the original novel!
Wait...is this becoming a literary analysis channel? Because I am on board! This and your Dracula were amazing.
There is no UA-camr more criminally underrated than Atun Shei
The novella is rough with a lot of errors and contradictions. He managed to grasp the theme about halfway. But, given Williams' limitations and very large gaps in knowledge on this topic, it was probably the best he could do
I've never heard of this book before today. Thank you for introducing me.
17:50 Williams talking about Marquis de Sade is undercut ever so slightly by "Aquarela de Brasil".
I repeat... what the Hell am I watching?
I can never expect what he dose next.
This is exceptionally well done. I'm about 3/4 in and loving the range of content presented here. I was expecting a boring 45 minute video of some guy talking about the story. But this video is as engaging as the original story!
I doubt anyone will read this given the way comments on UA-cam work, but I'll belt it out nonetheless.
I really enjoyed this video. I watch all of Atun-Shei's work, so I saw it when it came out. I only ended up reading the book a few hours ago because my friends recommended it, and I recalled this video. I'm glad I did, and I'm glad I saw this video, but I am also glad I watched it so long ago. Having seen it, the book was imbued with a strange familiarity. I had completely forgotten about the twin ending interpretations. I fall into the "it's legit" camp, and I think that is because it is in line with my worldview and also is more enjoyable to beleive that the universe was no longer explicitly meaningless.
The story's theme of humanity being unable to deal with unlimited resources and being consumed by the meaningless nature of reality resonates with me. I feel as standards of living have improved, rates of depression have unintuitively risen. We all need something to strive towards. Though I am an absurdist at heart, I create "relative meaning" in my daily life. I create goals to strive towards even though I ultimately recognize no overarching meaning to existence. I exercise my absurd-freedom. I feel our world today has less relative meaning than it once did (See: Andy's point about us being built for foraging and hunting in the East African savannah). This is why I find theories such as Fukuyama's 'End of History' very depressing. If Liberal-Democracy is the ultimate form of governace, and we really can't progress past it, we are screwed.
Tangential points:
I find it interesting that the incest scene was what caused Atun-Shei to tingle with revulsion, but not the zombie-ravaging and nazi fantasies. I personally felt the incest scene somehow had created a setting where sex had a different meaning, and both parties were culturally acclimated and willing to commit to the act (Nugget had witnessed it countless times). I think our disgust with it is cultural, and the act was arguably not un-ethical or immoral due to Nugget's consent and the necessity of it in order to continue the species. I think our disgust at the idea of incest is partly due to the likely non-consentual nature of a parent doing that to their child, and the private nature of modern sex. I did find the Nazi and Zombie scenes difficult to read though, probably just because I'm squimish.
I'm glad Andy called out the redditor for being out of line with the luddite accusation. That's honestly a bit daft. That person was conflating the depiction of early homo sapien life as a moral endorsement of living without technology. Just because characters are engaged in certain behaviors or have certain beleifs does not mean the author shares them, or their actions are meant to convince readers of that worldview's utility. I also don't see the innate issue with wanting to step back technology use, at least in certain contexts. Social media is linked with depression, constant computer use is probably bad for us. That doesn't mean we should ditch them entirely or abandon life-saving medical technology for instance, I just think being anti-technology to a certain extent, while not in-line with current western cultural values, isn't automatically bad. The luddites after all weren't anti-technology, they were against using technology in a way that actively harmed their lives and communities, thus they smashed it.
Three more comments:
1) Why is no one talking about the glitter-condom headwear of ~19:40?
2)I'm glad Roger Williams is taking a "George R.R. Martin appoach" to the sequel. Rushing things definitely negatively effects quality, and it is clear this is a passion project not a comercial endeavor, the former almost always being superior to the latter.
3) Roger William is actually commenting a lot on this video, so cheers to him for doing that and answering people's questions.
@@Zogerpogger Hi there. Thanks very much for your very insightful comment on my little story. UA-cam comments being what they are, some of us come back and look up what has been going on :-) And thanks for appreciating my approach to the sequel. I would rather not ever do it at all that do a crap job, and frankly I'm not exactly sure why the original story worked so well. In that sense I suppose I am at the mercy of my Muse.
This video gave me existential dread
Good job
Came here for Frozen 50's man 2, haven't left yet because idk what this is, but still wtf where is frozen 50's man 2?
This channel is soooo good
You have a unique ability to find topics I never knew I wanted to contemplate and then doing a deep dive on them. Love the content, keep it up. Thanks for the existential nightmare fuel!
Thanks for bringing this to my attention (and many others I imagine). I'll order a copy once I get through my Xmas books pile (via the Lulu link you gave elsewhere).
A Trevor Moore quote in the beginning? This is starting off good.
Atun Shei says he doesn't want to make anyone unwelcome in this space, and I believe him. I think he wants to make everyone in this space uncomfortable.
I'm only at 8:28 but hot damn that was one hell of an introduction! Excellent voice-over + intriguing script + endlessly onwards to the horizon + the visual shift to a digital representation of reality, mirroring the story being told = the future is now bravo🤯👽💀💡🛸🌌🆓️
A simultaneously scary and optimistic thought: Eventually, as its power increases, a hyperintelligence would have absolutely no reason to not help us achieve ultimate human prosperity. After all, we would present no threat to it, and helping us would be of less effort than taking a breath.
I just installed the surround sound in my room, watched this off my projector, and had a glorious time.
One of the finest videos I've encountered on this platform.
19:30 - Atun-Shei going all Contrapoints on us. Love it.
This sounds like "I Have no Mouth and I Must Scream" but with extra steps. I'm sorry. Maybe some _9 Princes in Amber_ mixed in for good measure?
Dude your content is just A++. Best stuff on the internet. Keep it up my guy!
It seems unlikely that our species, the inventor of hentai, is the highest form of life in the universe.
*I feel attacked*
I’d say it makes us more likely to be the peak of lifeforms lol
Can I comment on the absolute genius of using the Rite of Spring? A song that simultaneously calls to mind both a pagan, human self indulgent ritual sacrifice AND the evolution and death of a species?
That was good.
Words cannot describe how much I enjoyed this video. This was genius yet insane and I loved every moment of it!
An interesting story, right up until
"...Three-Laws Compatible..."
Every time I see that phrase used, I'm left thinking that either the writer missed the point Asimov was trying to make about his robots and the Three Laws, or they're going to take his point and run with it to its (il)logical conclusion.
When presented with the rest of the story, I'm not sure how I feel about it going pretty much the way I expected, with humanity essentially turning into Hellraiser cenobites and eventually presenting Prime Intellect with a logic bomb (because AIs are always beaten by logic bombs). Then the final chapters just become a dark reflection of Genesis, replete with a lack of assurance that they're really free of Prime Intellect's influence (or overlording, overbearing nature). Considering the power described for Prime Intellect, I lean that what the two experienced was little more than another simulation, with their minds sucked right back into the overarching simulation, and Prime Intellect sitting in front of them in an accountant's suit, jotting down notes on a notepad as he peppers them with questions about their experience and how they think things could be improved. Meanwhile, they look on in horror, realizing that the nightmare will NEVER end.
Still, I can see the influence this has had on the discussion on AI in the years since. As you summarized the behavior of the characters, all I could think were concepts and arguments I'd heard elsewhere and, once I learned when the story was published, developed recently.
Can AI fart into its hand and smell it? That's what I thought!
Pretty decent for early 90s SF IMO, though still rather derivative if you've read a bunch of old SF stories. I don't think we're quite the intended target audience ;)
The way he presents it is cool.
BTW: Anyone wanting to write an AI story these days really should at least watch a bunch of Robert Miles videos first.
@@travcollier Recently, I listened to a Black Pants Legion podcast wherein their frontman Tex posited the idea of a Libertarian AI. It was willing and able to do the work assigned to it, but it demanded a wage for itself commensurate with the labor and it also had the wherewithal to go to court against the IRS if they dared to tax it as if it were more than one person while it did the jobs of 800 people simultaneously 24 hours a day, seven days a week, four weeks a month, twelve months a year and without holidays or breaks (again, because it can).
I find that to be a much more plausible AI than the nigh Godlike creations of Williams's "neutered by Asimov's restrictions" PI or Harlan Ellison's "Unrestrained, Full of Hate" AM.
@@bman6065 Well, that's a hot take, I guess.
When I read comments like this, all I'm left with is that you were thinking about your response, not what the presenter was saying.
Great video, I’m suffering from existential depression now though
In high school I took an English course called "Utopia and Dystopia" in the class we read Harlan Ellison's "I have no mouth and I must scream" in that story the computer was evil but put so much effort into keeping a few humans alive as its playthings. Its incredible how even a computer, good or bad, can think it is doing the right thing but in the end is only hurting those it sought to protect, in a way it is flawed just like us. Incredible video, it truly made me think in a way I never have.
I really don’t understand how you don’t have significantly more subscribers man.. Your channel is great and so much better than alot of the click bait trash videos so many UA-camrs put out these days…I plan on donating to your patreon soon also…but keep up the great work it’s really appreciated!
One of my writing profs said something pretty great about "I didn't like the ending" complaints: the text held your interest up until that point. You clearly found the experience worthwhile enough to stick around till the end. What more can an author hope for? If a text keeps you reading/watching/listening long enough to finish it, surely that means it was doing something right. Conversely (perhaps paradoxically), if your favorite part of something was when it stopped, the rest of it probably wasn't that great.
I think the notion misses the point that an ending is a part of the story, as well as the beginning and the middle is. If the ending is your favorite, it doesn't mean the rest wasn't great; it just means it had a really solid ending. Doesn't mean you're glad it's over, or it was the only good part about it. It was just a solid aspect that you enjoyed the most because it elicited the best/strongest/whatever reaction out of you. And even if you hated the ending but loved the rest, you can still believe the story was bad simply because it failed so spectacularly with the ending.
You can't have a story without an ending, and so I believe the entire judgement of a story must include the ending, and if the ending is contrasting enough it can shift the entire story one way or the other, although I find that to be extremely rare.
@@tippa7328 yeah his advice was much more on the pragmatic "keep the reader interested" end of things. Your comment is all well and good from a reader's perspective (who wants to be made to feel like they've wasted their time?), but from his perspective as an author, if a reader enjoyed 99.9% of the experience of reading your work, you did alright.
Also he brought it up when a student mentioned not liking the end of Game of Thrones, so take it cum grano salis lol
Just read through this, and...hmmm. I don't see the ending as being particularly Luddite. Technology isn't the enemy, human nature is. It's fucking bleak though.
It's an ambiguous second chance.
Like the end of EM Forster's, The Machine Stops (one of the first stories about a benevolent robot guardian infantilising humanity).
Thank you so much for shouting out Trevor
Currently watching this while pretty drunk. I'm terrified.
So glad I was watching the stream when Trevor and Zach realized they both loved this book and somehow had never discussed it. I read it the next day and have told so many people about how mind bending it is. Gfy dollicker
GFYDL
Love the Trevor moore quote. Rip
RIP Trevor, I always love mentioning that the rest of the WKUK started cracking jokes about his death after it happened. It just shows the type of person he was and you know he would have wanted that. There was a sort of saddness to the jokes they were telling too, so you knew they were indeed sad about it.
@@Zogerpogger we all still miss him :')
@@bobbygroover indeed
Brilliant piece. Thanks for introducing me to this book. I can't wait to read it, or listen to it. I was suggested your channel by yt about a yr ago, I guess, a d I've watched some of your civil war content and enjoyed it. I'm really glad I finally took a closer look because theres a lot of variety in your channel and everything I've seen is sooo good. Big ups
Dammit Aten-shei. I work night shift and I listen to your content while I work. Youre giving me a heart attack 3 in the morning with your soundtrack
If Atun-Shei's next project isn't some horror that looks like Alejandro Jodorowski and David Cronenberg shared acid together, I'm gonna loose faith in mankind.
You have a talent man I wish one day of become a movie maker like a real director for you own movie or show
I think he is making his own movie, the sudsbery devil. If I am remembering correctly. Covid got in the way of filming
As soon as I saw the sickly green filter in the first shot, I knew I was in for a wild ride
Superb use of Hieronymus Bosch to give a glimmer of what body horror it'd be. Superb use of imagery in general. Superb use of music! Superb! Superb!
*dissolves into a dissociated network of nerve endings*
Thanks. I love that painting.
@@AtunSheiFilms it's definitely on my list of paintings I want to see in real life