VIC-20 Penultimate+2: Programming, Games, Utilities, RAM Expansion and More

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  • Опубліковано 22 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 107

  • @8BitNaptime
    @8BitNaptime Рік тому +11

    Very nice, the VIC doesn't get enough love.

  • @15743_Hertz
    @15743_Hertz Рік тому +19

    The VIC reference book is very affordable! I ordered mine and downloaded the PDF. Excellent resource, Mr. Daniels!

    • @LeftoverBeefcake
      @LeftoverBeefcake Рік тому +3

      Agreed 100%, and I also ordered a spiral bound copy, it's going to be super handy to have. Thank you Mr. Daniels for putting it together, and thank you Robin for showcasing it in the video. :)

    • @BG101UK
      @BG101UK Рік тому +2

      @@LeftoverBeefcake Having a hard copy is always preferable to me, saves having to juggle screens. Especially when the hard copy is so nicely put together!

  • @hitfan2000
    @hitfan2000 10 місяців тому +2

    Speaking as a somewhat prominent VIC-20 developer (I'm the Realms of Quest guy), I think the title of greatest VIC-20 games creator, in terms of what the machine was intended to do, has to go to Jeffrey Daniels. I just ordered his book on Amazon thanks to this video!
    Moreover, I also just ordered a Penultimate+2 as well. It's about time that I did.

    • @GarryGri
      @GarryGri 5 місяців тому

      The VIC was the first computer I owned and is where I first learned basic. Without the VIC there's a good chance I wouldn't have had a career in IT and programming.
      I keep promising myself to sit down and properly write something for it, some day...

  • @6502Assembler
    @6502Assembler Рік тому +3

    Some sweet timing here! Just got my penultimate+2 this week!

  • @eugenetswong
    @eugenetswong Рік тому

    Thanks, Robin, patrons, and all.

  • @Doug_in_NC
    @Doug_in_NC Рік тому +4

    Yes, definitely do a review of Jeff’s book! He put a huge amount of effort into it over a year or so, and a lot of people on the Denial Vic 20 forum contributed with suggestions, proof reading etc. I have a copy, and it’s really an impressive book that I thoroughly recommend for anyone interested in workings of the VIC 20, whether you program or not.

    • @andrewgillham1907
      @andrewgillham1907 Рік тому

      Definitely a neat looking book. I wish it was more clear if Robin’s is the Lulu printed one or the better quality special one. That one says message me. Then sends you to the website that says email me. That sends you to the forum that says PM. Then the PM seems to sit in the outbox since a new user maybe can’t send.
      It is like I’m being pranked. Well anyway. I guess I’ll order the Lulu one and see what I get!
      I do appreciate all the hard work on it and it looks super useful.

  • @lactobacillusprime
    @lactobacillusprime Рік тому +10

    I recently acquired one myself. I already had a MegaCart but this is even more impressive. A must-have for any VIC-20 user that takes themselves seriously! 🏆

  • @StefanHolmes
    @StefanHolmes 10 місяців тому

    Managed to find a really nice VIC on eBay and the first thing I did after my offer was accepted was buy the Penultimate+2 and a video cable.
    Thanks for the video!

    • @GarryGri
      @GarryGri 5 місяців тому

      It's easy to make a composit video cable for the VIC-20 as that is what the video port is outputting natively.

  • @keithparker1346
    @keithparker1346 Рік тому

    These videos make me wish i never gave away my Commodore 16 Plus. I was amazed at the time it had a built in assembler/disassembler.i didnt have the brain power to really use it but copied a couple of small routines printed in magazines at the time

  • @LeftoverBeefcake
    @LeftoverBeefcake Рік тому +6

    D'oh! I missed the fact that the file browser is built right into the cartridge instead of having to load it separately from disk/SD card. And having it automagically select which RAM banks you need when loading software is wonderful.

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +3

      Oops, I should have specifically said the file browser is built in now. Yes, it's really great!

  • @m0nde
    @m0nde Рік тому +2

    I've been waiting for this video, great list of utilities!

  • @TastyBusiness
    @TastyBusiness Рік тому +2

    A dedicated VIC RAM video would be greatly appreciated.

  • @GeorgesChannel
    @GeorgesChannel Рік тому +4

    Great video! I liked the Super-Expander part. I wrote a 3d renderer for the Vic-20 with it a few years ago. The formula will be useful for some optimizations. Thank you!

  • @RodHull_TFW8b
    @RodHull_TFW8b Рік тому +7

    I've added to PU+3 Feature List. Favoris for French Canadians. ;D

  • @TheStuffMade
    @TheStuffMade Рік тому +2

    Thanks for the demonstration, great cartridge and even very affordable, I thought it'd be like $200 or something.

  • @67amiga
    @67amiga Рік тому +5

    I'm suprised the Programers Aid Cartridge wasn't included. I liked the ability to program the function keys, plus it included Auto line number and could renumber your Basic program lines.

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +1

      The Super Expander allows function key programming as well, but the line number utilities are missed.

  • @aresaurelian
    @aresaurelian Рік тому

    Glorious. Amazing music in the outro too. Thank you.

  • @Asterra2
    @Asterra2 Рік тому +3

    3:29 This looks just like a "racing game" I made back in the day. One which actually survived being recorded to tape so I still have it. Same deal with the road that shifts left and right. Conspicuous difference is that mine was Basic and the scrolling was upwards. Plus I didn't have the fancy semi-parallax background, of course. Mine had pitstops, oil slicks, and fences with only a single hole to navigate through. It ran more or less as fast as this, which is to say pretty typical for a Basic game and certainly not a speed you could reasonably label as challenging.

  • @DavidYoud
    @DavidYoud Рік тому +11

    10:07 I've got the Penultimate, but Daniels book was new to me. Ordered! The VIC memory layout always confuses me, so maybe that'll help.
    25:51 If you had wanted LDA 65 as zero page, would you have to create a label, like you did for $FFD2? Hopefully not LABEL = $0065. Either way, crazy.
    47:52 10 PRINT maze on the KIM-1, that's cool!

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +4

      It seems that yes, you need to create a label like ZP1=$65 and (I guess?) it assumes you want zero-page addressing if the label value is < $100. The documentation is really terrible, and unintentionally funny because it mentions multiple times that the assembler follows the "MOS Technology Standard". I'll link to it in a 2nd comment in case youtube censors it.

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +5

      VICKIT-5 documentation: www.nemetzpower.de/Denial/VICKIT-5.pdf

    • @DavidYoud
      @DavidYoud Рік тому +2

      @@8_Bit Well, as Tanenbaum quipped, "The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from" :D

    • @JustWasted3HoursHere
      @JustWasted3HoursHere Рік тому +4

      Jeff Daniels is a talented guy. Programmer, actor.... ;)

  • @mattnik
    @mattnik Рік тому

    Love the deep dives, Robin! Thanks!

  • @orospakr
    @orospakr Рік тому +3

    With my Penultimate Cartridge 1 I was messing with VICKIT, and ran into the same issues you did. It seemed really cool how it was integrated into the BASIC environment until I realized how broken it was. It was frustrating to see it mis-assemble things!

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +2

      Yes, it's bizarre. It may be fairly useable if one can get used to all the non-standard syntax, but I'm not sure anyone would bother.

  • @BG101UK
    @BG101UK Рік тому

    Excellent video as always, Robin. I'll certainly be ordering a Penultimate - and a hard-copy of the VIC-20 reference book - when I can afford it!
    N.B. I really need to make or buy a few modern replacement PSUs for my VIC and Commodore 64s.

  • @DaveCurran
    @DaveCurran Рік тому +5

    If you didn't like the "Favo(u)rites" menu, I probably shouldn't mention that the Dead Test has "Colo(u)r RAM".......

  • @weronistelm2357
    @weronistelm2357 Рік тому

    It’s always a great day when you post :-)

  • @tedthrasher9433
    @tedthrasher9433 Рік тому +2

    Was Commodore BASIC 4.0 available for the Vic 20 as a cartridge (or otherwise) once it started being included with a the PET? Pretty neat seeing it on there.

  • @MichaelDoornbos
    @MichaelDoornbos Рік тому +6

    I just ordered "Resident Plywood Expert" business cards.

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому

      Hah, I gotta see these!! :)

  • @Okurka.
    @Okurka. Рік тому +4

    I'm still waiting for the VIC-20 Ultimate cartridge.

    • @csbruce
      @csbruce Рік тому

      I'd rather have the Postultimate cartridge.

  • @sicmop512
    @sicmop512 Рік тому

    I have no idea what's going on, but I'm still watching XD

  • @c128stuff
    @c128stuff Рік тому +2

    Haha, I never thought about changing the spelling of things like color, armor etc based on pal/ntsc... but as you say, it is... imperfect. Still, funny idea.

  • @acestapp1884
    @acestapp1884 Рік тому +1

    AD EEEE is lda absolute. The EEEE are the bytes the assembler has reserved to fill in with a label later.

  • @MD_il_microcanale
    @MD_il_microcanale Рік тому +2

    fantastic!

  • @JustWasted3HoursHere
    @JustWasted3HoursHere Рік тому +2

    It's hard to appreciate in this day and age where RAM prices are relatively cheap that back then every bit of RAM was potentially on the chopping block for manufacturers. A few years earlier, the bean counters over at Atari were fighting over whether to let the engineers have 128 or only 64 bytes (yes BYTES!) of RAM for the 2600/VCS. Luckily the 128 byte guys won!

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +1

      The Commodore Max Machine is another example; it greatly suffered for having only 2K of RAM total, even less than the VIC-20 or the original PET, despite being released in 1982 and having a VIC-II which can easily make use of 16K of RAM just for video. Even just showing a bitmap requires 9K of RAM, or 3K for a character-based screen with custom characters. 2K of RAM shows they were clearly intending the machine to be a low-end game machine, and even then it was starved for RAM.

    • @JustWasted3HoursHere
      @JustWasted3HoursHere Рік тому

      @@8_BitIt's no wonder that the Commodore Max flopped. Small memory machines can do really well *IF* they were designed from the ground up to utilize tiny bits of RAM, such as the Atari 2600 which has no individually addressable pixels to speak of and no character mode either. The Atari engineers were extremely clever in getting the most out of what they had, but the C-Max machine, as you say, was designed to use a lot more RAM so it was severely hamstringed with only 2K. Barely enough to do anything useful.

  • @thomaswinston5142
    @thomaswinston5142 Рік тому

    I own 4 VIC-20s 😊

  • @BL-ob9fn
    @BL-ob9fn 4 місяці тому

    The font in the menus seem to be only 5 pixels tall, plus a single pixel dividing line, leading to a 8x6 character grid. Isn't that a lot of trouble to go to just to squeeze a few more lines of text on the screen?

  • @randy7894
    @randy7894 Рік тому +2

    Sexy Penultimate font! And a super entertaining video. As always.

    • @csbruce
      @csbruce Рік тому +1

      The display must be bitmapped.

  • @twobob
    @twobob Рік тому

    great outro

  • @tetraphobie
    @tetraphobie Рік тому

    The red and blue Ten Ten game reminded me of DROD ☺️

  • @pauldeane8369
    @pauldeane8369 Рік тому

    Another excellent and informative video! Again, I envy your vast knowledge of these things and only wish I could grasp the concepts of assembly, memory maps and instructions with the same level of understanding. When they finally invent one of those mind-transfer machines, you'll be the first one I call. :) Alas.... Curious if you've ever tried the Final Expansion 3? I built one for myself a few years ago. It seemed to provided more features than the original Penultimate (at the time). Quite an amazing cartridge with similar features to the Penultimate+2 but far less user friendly and limited included software. I've always wanted someone to do a thorough video on it. It's been out for many years so perhaps not as relevant now with the release of this PU+2.

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +1

      Unfortunately I've never tried the Final Expansion 3. It looks like it's not available anymore? Having a built-in SD2IEC is neat, though I think I prefer having the drive separate so I can move it between my other 8-bit Commodores.

  • @michaelbuddy
    @michaelbuddy Рік тому +2

    What's the story on the joystick in this video? I haven't seen all your stuff lately. Is that a project joystick or something people can buy? Seems like with an enclosure, somebuttons and a pico board it could be done diy, but I'm curious if it's on sale anywhere.

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому

      It's a custom-built stick by a friend (and patron) of mine, unfortunately not for sale anywhere. I showed it in more detail in a previous video but can't think of which one at the moment! If I find it, I'll leave another reply here.

    • @csbruce
      @csbruce Рік тому

      @@8_Bit: ua-cam.com/video/P8t6otqoz_E/v-deo.html

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому

      @michaelbuddy Big thanks to @csbruce for finding the video. Either follow his link in a reply to your comment (if UA-cam doesn't delete it) or look for the video "Printing Binary in BASIC and Assembly on Commodore 64" and check out in particular the first chapter, and the 2nd last starting at about 34:50.

  • @jameschamplin1742
    @jameschamplin1742 Рік тому

    How great thou art.
    ... I'll see myself out.

  • @markjreed
    @markjreed Рік тому

    Interesting that dI works for DIRECTORY on the VIC version of BASIC 4. On the PET version, and later BASICs like 3.5 and 7.0, dI is DIM and you have to type diR for DIRECTORY.

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +1

      I think that must be why I got in the habit of using CATALOG all the time, because cA was easier than diR.

  • @evileyeball
    @evileyeball Рік тому

    Ye find ye self in yon dungeon, ye see a scroll a flask
    Was the first thing that came to mind when you played your 10 line adventure.

  • @richardpowell8198
    @richardpowell8198 Рік тому

    How do you get that perfect picture and also I put folders a to z and when I use the file browser and scroll down to O and the next screen is Q, P is missed out ? is this a bug....

  • @jinchoung
    @jinchoung Рік тому

    hmmm, i have to see if penultimate +2 can get gotten for use in vice. this seems like it makes a lot of tasks much much easier.

  • @acousvnt
    @acousvnt Рік тому +1

    I couldn't get past the size of the text on the VIC 20. The amount of text you could get on a C64 screen was, for me, the bare minimum. VIC 20 felt like that moment when you could get Pac Man on Atari, but then you saw what it looked like compared to the arcade game.

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +1

      The 22 column screen really was the biggest shortcoming of the VIC-20, even more than the paltry 5K of RAM, as at least the RAM could be upgraded in a simple and standardized way.

  • @JohnnyWednesday
    @JohnnyWednesday Рік тому +2

    Brilliant! (explodes into petscii)

  • @markjreed
    @markjreed Рік тому

    About the memory configuration: Color RAM was, at least originally, only 4 bits per cell. So even though it occupies 512 addresses in memory, it's only 256 bytes/0.25K of RAM.

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +1

      I've seen multiple sources say that Color RAM is 1K of 4 bit nibbles, mapped from $9400-$97FF, but only half (512 addresses) is in use at any given time. Depending on memory config, Color RAM is mapped at either $9400 or $9600. I don't really know why it was implemented that way, but it does seem to be 1024 4-bit locations or 512 "bytes".

    • @markjreed
      @markjreed Рік тому

      @@8_BitAh, I thought it just moved around based on memory config like screen RAM; didn't realize it was actually switching between halves of a double-size bank that's always at the same spot. Very interesting. Thanks!

  • @weedmanwestvancouverbc9266
    @weedmanwestvancouverbc9266 Рік тому

    Robin, what is the primary difference in memory mapping in between the vic-20 and the Commodore 64 where the Vic can't have as much free memory for basic as the c64?

    • @weedmanwestvancouverbc9266
      @weedmanwestvancouverbc9266 Рік тому

      Found the explanation near the end it's non-contiguous ram.

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +1

      Yes, the VIC-20 has ROM and I/O in the $8000-$9FFF area, while the C64 continues its run of contiguous RAM all the way to $9FFF.

    • @weedmanwestvancouverbc9266
      @weedmanwestvancouverbc9266 Рік тому

      @@8_Bit they really set out to hobble this from the start, or just give you no alternative but to buy the c64 if you didn't like it

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому

      @@weedmanwestvancouverbc9266 Possibly, but it was a common design pattern for 8-bit machines of the era to have RAM low and I/O and ROM high like this. I think it was just following on from the PET architecture (which had I/O, specifically video RAM, starting at $8000) rather than a deliberate attempt to hobble.

  • @mr.minderbinder1238
    @mr.minderbinder1238 Рік тому

    What is the end music?

  • @csbruce
    @csbruce Рік тому +2

    2:43 I doubt there were ever that many 3K RAM-expansion packs in the wild, aside from the Super Expander.
    5:45 "Long live on the top of the lady of Rivaria. The prince will come to you!" A bit odd, but that's what Google Translate says.
    13:11 Yep, it takes 35K to hold a ten-line BASIC program!
    15:21 How many Canadians actually use the "U" spellings? I never do it with "Color" and only do it sometimes with "Favorites". The problem to me is that there really isn't a glided "OU" sound there. How do you spell "Favor"? How do you pronounce "Data"? How do you pronounce "Route"?
    25:22 $AD is LDA «absolute», which makes sense since it thinks that #65 is a label. The $EEEE must be what it fills in for "Error".
    26:35 $1C isn't even a valid opcode. It'd be pretty much impossible to use this assembler for anything non-trivial.
    58:09 What I've heard is that Commodore had a ton of 1K×4bit chips to dispose of.
    59:55 What even happens if you select both 3K and 8K? Does BASIC ignore the 3K? I don't think the VIC can put the screen RAM in the expanded 3K memory, since video RAM needs to run at 2 MHz, so it's a mess.

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +4

      I use the "U" spellings all the time. When I added the caption in this video for the Super Expander COLOR command I was tempted to troll everyone by putting the "U" in the examples. I pronounce the directional "route" (or router) as "root" and the cutting kind of "route" (or router) as "rowt". I pronounce DATA with a long A.

    • @RodHull_TFW8b
      @RodHull_TFW8b Рік тому +2

      @@8_Bit U's should become your 'thing' ;D BTW, Deadtest has a magic U too :D

  • @richardpowell8198
    @richardpowell8198 Рік тому

    Is there a snap shot, so when you get so far on a game you can load it back up again ??

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +1

      No, unfortunately; I don't think anyone's ever made a (real) VIC-20 cartridge with a snapshot feature. TheVIC20 (variation on TheC64 "Maxi") allows snapshots, if you can find one.

  • @TrashfordKent
    @TrashfordKent Рік тому

    Hi, i got one of these off the back of your review, awesome. one thing what kind of scaler are you using as mine looks no where near as good as yours. I'm using the same brand output cable (composite) and a retro tink 2x pro, my vic20 is an old type PAL two pin PSU variant. Do some variants output better than others?

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому

      I think the older VICs with the 2-pin power do have a worse picture unfortunately. I mostly use the newer VICs with the C64 style power connector as they seem to have a better picture, and also run cooler, and it's handy to swap machines between C64 and VIC-20 using the same power supply. I use a Cloner Box Pro for recording because it directly records to USB drive with no PC involved, which I find handy.

    • @MichaelDoornbos
      @MichaelDoornbos Рік тому

      They can vary quite a bit. What is the "problem" with the picture? With certain symptoms I can help point to possible solutions.

    • @TrashfordKent
      @TrashfordKent Рік тому

      @@MichaelDoornbos the retrotink seems to loose sync every couple of minutes resulting in a signal drop out and then comes back a couple of seconds later. Some content makes the drop out worse such as a white background or the basic screen. I’ve updated the firmware but I suspect the overall signal must be the issue. Oh and the picture lacks native contrast and brightness punch

    • @MichaelDoornbos
      @MichaelDoornbos Рік тому

      @@TrashfordKent I have a PAL VIC that loses sync with RetroTink sometimes. There's little you can easily do about that. The contrast and brightness is on a POT inside the RF shield where the VIC chip is. Using a nonconductive screwdriver and gently turning it may yield positive results.

    • @TrashfordKent
      @TrashfordKent Рік тому

      @@MichaelDoornbos thank you I’ll give that a try. I might get a transcoder board for my OSSC and see how that fairs

  • @Lion_McLionhead
    @Lion_McLionhead Рік тому

    Plotting dots in commodore BASIC turned a generation off of bitmap graphics for life.

  • @RonHelton
    @RonHelton Рік тому +1

    👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

  • @gnustep
    @gnustep Рік тому

    You guys and your weird “u” in words that don’t need it. ;) (kidding). Seriously. Great review. I’m going to get the cart and the book. I still love my Vic after so many years!!

  • @anon_y_mousse
    @anon_y_mousse Рік тому

    I really do learn something new everyday, and that Canadians misspell favorite is one of those things. I thought only the Brits and other funny accent colonies spelled it wrong, but then I do hear you guys saying aboot and other weird pronunciations.

  • @midtskogen
    @midtskogen Рік тому

    The Latin in Reals of Quest seems somewhat nonsensical. The sign reads "Live the supreme lady however Rivaria. And I the prince will come to you".

  • @tenminutetokyo2643
    @tenminutetokyo2643 Рік тому

    DOOD!

  • @joeynrg
    @joeynrg Рік тому

    Fire really need to work on the audio

  • @nneeerrrd
    @nneeerrrd Рік тому

    "200+ built-in games"? So you encouraging the software piracy, huh?

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +1

      I gave permission for my game to be included.

  • @chrismason7066
    @chrismason7066 Рік тому

    Nice video. But maybe spend a bit less actually playing the games. Show the game. But in depth walkthroughs are unnecessary. In your videos you spend alot of time actually playing the game. Like the 10 line adventure game. Couple min or so at least it seemed. Make your point. But youve started to do this quite a bit and it distracts from the videos

    • @8_Bit
      @8_Bit  Рік тому +3

      Difficult to make everyone happy! I chopped segments out of all the game playing, including the 10 line game, to keep it moving. I also take the time to make a chapter index for every single video so you can jump ahead to the next chapter if you're not interested in the current chapter. This video has 18 chapters. The one you're unhappy with is just over 4 minutes and covers 1) TinyMon 2) Showing a potential problem with the RAM auto-detect 3) Demonstrating how to fix that problem and 4) Actually playing the game. I deliberately put the game playing at the end of the chapter so nothing else would be missed if you skipped ahead.
      If a majority of viewers agreed with you then I would cut the game playing down even further, but I know a lot of people specifically enjoy watching the game playing too. I'll keep monitoring the comments to see if there's a consensus, but in the meantime I've done all the above to attempt to cater to both groups.

    • @Doug_in_NC
      @Doug_in_NC Рік тому +3

      @@8_BitI’m sure lots of people will disagree, but I think you have the game playing about right. Enough to get a flavo(u)r of the games, but not so much it turns into a game review. There are plenty of those around on UA-cam if anyone wants to look at them.

    • @andrewgillham1907
      @andrewgillham1907 Рік тому +5

      I enjoy the balance as it is now. Just enough game play to show it, without creating lamers.

    • @chrismason7066
      @chrismason7066 Рік тому

      @@8_Bit it's all good. I love your videos and want more. Just wanted to share something I noticed. Keep u the great work and yes. RuSH is the best rock band in the world!

    • @chrismason7066
      @chrismason7066 Рік тому +1

      It's all good. Between you and the 8bit guy. You two have this genre covered perfectly and I enjoy your videos and look forward to new ones. I would also like to see more of the super cpu and the cbm80 or whatever it was called. Plz keep it up and yes. RuSH is the best rock and roll band of all time!