How Bad was the Smoke on 18th C. Battlefields?
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- Опубліковано 6 лип 2024
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~~Video Description~~
The smoke which obscured battlefields during the 18th and 19th Centuries is something that is regularly discussed, but not often focused on in great depth. In this video, pulling from both live display footage and primary sources from the time, I hope to shed a little more light on this diffusive and deeply important element of war, described as "Hell upon Earth."
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~~Timestamps~~
Lingering Smoke 00:00
The Impact of Rapid Fire 03:05
The Impact of Scale 04:30
Reenactment Vs Reality 05:11
Black Powder 06:01
Sponsorship 07:56
Primary & Other Sources 10:13
Conclusion 17:21
Now imagine a broadside from a ship like the Victory. Now imagine a lot of those ships together.
Now Imagine a Honda Civic there.
I recall reading a book on seventeenth century warships, the dawn of fighting sail. When the Sovereign Of The Seas was being built the opposition part of the government objected since the smoke from a broadside would obscure its vision
@@dakotah7683Toyota Corolla
i don't know how i never thought about guns on ships having smoke too
One of the neat features I enjoyed in _AC: Blackflag_ was how the smoke from your cannons would limit your vision for a few moments after firing
This reminds me of an exchange that I had with my wife one weekend where she encountered me playing a modded Napoleon Total War battle. One mod increases the gunpowder smoke and dust kicked up by your units and causes it to linger in the air, basically obscuring your units from view entirely. My wife remarked "I don't know why you do this to yourself. All I see are two giant lines of smoke." To which I replied "EXACTLY!!"
On top of that, we can't watch any movie with battles set in the 18th century without me going off on the smoke and the bad tactics. Lol thank you, Brandon.
you should get a "bad history" bell like in the meme
The influence of the mundane: smoke, mud, heat and fatigue is difficult for us to imagine in the modern day.
Great video! I participated in the 150th Battle of Shiloh event. The first scenario was the early morning attack on the Union camp. The humidity of the early morning hours plus thousands of men firing muskets and cannon created a nearly impenetrable fog. I have never seen anything else quite like it. I can’t imagine having to actually coordinate an army in such conditions.
The best example I ever saw was actually at the same event! Different year though. I remember walking across the field afterwards and marveling at just how bad it was.
Had the same experience at a Gettysburg reenactment a few decades back. Same thing: hot humid still conditions lead to a completely fogged up battle field with a short sighting distance
Had this experience at a minor skirmish event in Oregon years ago. It had just rained all night and morning, there were merely 120 of us and 4 or 5 12pdrs and yet after a mere 10 minutes we could only see vague forms 10 or so yards away, if that. There were several blunders that nearly ended the battle due to units getting disoriented and nearly turning into the crowd instead of their intended routs... with loaded muskets.
The Akira Kurosawa epic film "Ran", also vividly demonstrated how smoky, black powder muskets would make the battlefield. Smoky battlefields were not limited to Europe, there are tells of Samurai battles obscured by gunsmoke, such as the legendary battles of Kawanakajima, however, there was also clear battlefields, where black powder smoke did not cloak the view, such as the famous battle of Nagashino, the first decisive battle in Japan won by firearms.
In the Spanish historical drama Sangre de Mayo (which adapts "the 19th of March and the 2nd of May" by Benito Pérez Galdós) it's also shown in one short scene: ua-cam.com/video/P00CqwdroUI/v-deo.html
The story is about the Revolt of 2nd of May (after the Spanish Royal House went into custody with the French), a revolt which culminated in the establishment of a Spanish provisional government which declared war on France.
Current historians generally agree that the guns didn't win Nagashino since the battle continued for many hours after the initial volleys with hand to hand fighting. Although I don't doubt the Guns helped break the Takeda Cavalry charge
The speed of those Czech gunner's is mind boggling, one has to image the peak cadence of a well trained crew fighting a desperate battle. 😮
Spain, 1811...
Soldier: Sir, I'm home sick. Its too warm and the sunshine is killing me.
*battle begins, smoke covering them.*
Soldier: ahhh... just like home...
Most heat resistant bri'ish soldier
@@cpp3221 British*
Lmao
Spain, 1811:
Spanish Soldier: Sir, we have a problem.
Spanish Officer: What is it, soldier?
Soldier: Well, the enemy force is made out of ten thousand French soldiers.
Officer: And?
Soldier: We only have five thousand bullets.
Officer: Well, they always come in those fancy formations, so we can count on have several lucky shots. If not, well, we have bayonets for something.
To me the smoke is one of the coolest aspects. Really makes it feel more immersive and realistic
It is literal fog of war
Hello Brandon. The scavenging in the fog must have left the soldiers fuming.
I am old enough to remember the days before smokeless fuel and grew up in an industrial city in a valley, itself sometimes referred to as hell on earth. The day after bonfire night used to smell of gunpowder from fireworks and the smoke of bonfires as well as the smoke from domestic and industrial heating that turned the buildings so black that it was said visiting architects admired the black stones. It used to make me think of such battles as I played with my new Waterloo Airfix figures. Back then even the five pound note seemed to depict the fog, plus Wellington.
The literal fog of war
I was at Waterloo 2015 with the 51e Ligne. About 30 minutes into the reenactments, the whole field was so full of smoke you could barely see. I remember our column marching towards the fake Haye Sainte on the first day almost blindly; the smoke of the British guns pretty much obscuring their whole formation until they opened up on us.
Then we returned fire, and we couldn't see shit again.
I think there's a monument to that regiment in what is now a car park on the other side of the road at La Haye Sainte. It was a sandpit then defended by the 91st Rifles
Very interesting and it got me thinking, did soldiers of the later 19th century talk about the lack of smoke when using new equipment?
Ooh, that's a good question- something worth looking into!
@@BrandonF amen, more on the effects of smokeless powder!
I bet they would complain about the lack of smoke not giving them at least some ressemblance of cover, especially while maneuvering on open field, but then again, it goes both ways, as the smoke should also give away your position.
So I expect mixed reactions from those soldiers.
@@BrandonF In the Spanish-American war it was an issue: Spain had just introduced the Mauser C93 bolt-action rifle (nicknamed "mosquetón"="big musket" due to its large size), which used smokeless cordite, while the Americans still used lever-action rifles from the ACW era which produced far more smoke. An experienced Spanish sharpshooter hidden in the Cuban jungle could wipe out an entire US squad before they were able to detect him.
@@podemosurss8316 You almost got it. The official US infantry rifle during the Span-Am War was the Krag-Jorgensen bolt-action .30 caliber rifle. It was a smokeless powder firearm and a good one but there weren't enough to go around so many of the US National Guard and Volunteer units had to use the .45-70 single shot Springfield which DID use a black powder cartridge. As you stated, it was guaranteed to give away the position of the soldier using one.
Any Winchesters or other lever-action rifles on the field would have been privately owned, not military issue. No Civil War leftovers were used.
Yet another reason to attend Grolle when you can, Brandon. Several times has the field there been so obscured that you couldn't see the opposing side barely thirty yards away. Once due to dense fog, another, solely due to the smoke.
Even though it's 1627, the amount of artillery and muskets still hugely impacts the conditions on the field, in regards to smoke.
oop
didn't expect to get recommended this 1 minute after upload
Good sign for me I suppose!
Why I personally enjoy black powder reenacting compared to ww2, with the smoke from the guns it’s much more immersive.
That’s so awesome this Czech gun crew did the hot firing without swabbing. I’m having a hard time finding that UA-cam link.
Good history as usual Brandon!
It's a video on Facebook- I shared it on my own page, if you go look there and scroll down a bit.
@@BrandonF thanks!
*No tobacco is present within this film*
We had this at the 160th Gettysburg, but with around a thousand reenactors and around 30 (i think) cannon on both sides. Wasn't nearly as bad as an actual battle, but the humidity kept the smoke on the field to the point where your whole vision would have smoke in it, altho you could still see through it.
Interesting science fact, the black powder smoke off of battlefields causes additional cloud formation and rain. It was studying the aftermath of battles that led to the discovery of cloud seeding.
From my memory the Privateer and Buccaneer Henry Morgan (not the rum) used smoke from his mens rifle to obscure his troops movenments, I believe this was specifically one in his raid on Porto Bello in 1668 and a couple of other occasions.
The most accurate depiction of what one of these battlefields must have looked like (I think at least) is the original Russian made War and Peace film.The smoke, the fire, the wind, the dust from a hundred thousand men and horses, all done without any CGI, it's breathtaking.
I would like to add the Battle of Windrush Valley Oxfordshire, England August 1994 , yes 1994 . The Sealed knot were reenacting the original battle that took place at Witney in the 1640s . A hot dry Bank Holiday weekend , and the 50+ acre site had been harvested.
The Battle raged , the guns fired , plenty of smoke , crowd enjoying every second when a smoldering wad landed on the stubble near the park cars . The field immediately ignited , even more smoke rose and the crowd roared as the Oxfordshire Fire Brigade join the fray . Cars burned as Brigade , Specials and member volunteers battled the flames and ushered the crowd to safety . It was like " Hell on Earth " . For over an hour they battled , until a victory was achieved . The outcome , 20 including Specials injured admitted to John Radcliffe Hospital with smoke inhalation and 50 cars completely gutted . So gentlemen , have a care , the smoke screen of battle claims a multitude of victims so choose your field wisely .
We did a 17 gun salute in downtown Boise for the Govenor's Inaguration with 3 75mm WWII Pack Howitzers. It had rained with low overcast and humidity in the air. Not only really loud, but we smoked people out as well.
Honey wake up, another banger video just dropped!
I was a mortarman in the Marines. Obviously didn't to deal with the smoke but there was a lot of auditory chaos with the gun line screaming the target data and commands. I can imagine if smoke was involved things would be a hell of a lot more intense on the range.
I've got a better appreciation than most. When I was a kid, my dad accidentally set off two boxes of fireworks mortars, in the box. About ten feet away. There was so much smoke you could only find the house by the porch light making a bright spot in the haze. The street, the trees, everything else was obscured by shifting curtains of white and gray smoke
If I remember correctly, wasn't it a pretty common sight during the American Civil War for junior officers to be on their hands and knees in order to see below the smoke and assertain how to correct aim?
If you've ever walked home at night in a European city after new years eve you have probably seen something similar. If it's a cold and wet day then even hours after people stopped shooting off fireworks the smoke will still hang in the air and look like fog. If you're on a street with lots of parties you have probably seen that it becomes hard to see very far sometime around midnight due to all the smoke from the fire works and if you're in a city center it becomes completely clogged with smoke.
Or Guy Fawkes night in Britain
Good subject, I think something alot of people and historians underestimate is the effect smoke had in battle and just how revolutionary smokeless powder was (they often leave the extremely important bit out), especially when they make claims about the ACW being an early ww1 or the FPW ending up in a trench stalemate if France held out longer.
As a Civil War Reenactor I have many an anecdote on the musket smoke I encounter on the field, and looking at history itself for such incidents about it.
Like Lundy's Lane in the War of 1812 where forces were mere FEET from each other and saw NOTHING.
Gettysburg 150, I had this kinda thing happen! The smoke got so heavy it was like a literal fog! The humidity definitely contributed, also when I started reenacting, due to the time of year being Veteran's Day weekend and the location, when it is JUST right? The chill in the air and moisture just GRABS the smoke and our muskets and cannon just BLANKET the field that when you are on the field you are swimming in the smoke! It was EERIE...Almost ghostly and you only see muzzle flashes! (At this long discontinued event, there was a night battle and this is when it gets this way.)
Also at least at my reenactments, they are taking time for safety, but they are not strolling along either, they reload the cannon with gusto to at least look MORE like they are in battle.
I'm reading Flames Across the Border by Pierre Berton which is about the war of 1812 and smoke factors into many of the battles. It's not uncommon for it to combine with terrible commanders to make or break a battle as it becomes more difficult for the commanders to ascertain how the battle is actually unfolding due to the smoke and the terrain.
Excellent examination of an aspect of the blackpowder battlefield which is often forgotten and under-appreciated. Hitting something with a smooth-barrel musket is tough enough in clear conditions, but nigh impossible when you can't see what you're shooting at!
I attended the PCWA Gettysburg reenactment, the amount of smoke on the July 1st battle was crazy, couldnt see a thing.
It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway - those Czech guys are impressive.
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Your videos are so interesting. I always find the themes discussed very exciting!
I don't blame units for getting out of position, for units getting lost, for firing being reduced to 50 yards, for flags and uniforms and halberds desperately trying to keep people together, for friendly fire. Chris the Redcoat did a view on Germantown, and that battle was famosly foggy where Patriot units, having achieved surprise, accidentally shot each other as their smoke mixed in with the morning fog. People think repeating rifles and Needle guns changed everything, but they're also forgetting smokeless powder. The Boer Wars and Spanish-American war are big examples of this- the British and Americans learned the hard way that new tech was finally bypassing this old devil.
Poor Timmy, getting his centuries mixed up.
Would a companion video about the noise of the battle be appropriate? You'd have to hear your commands over firing, screams of men and animals, impacts. even the whizz of the projectiles. It even had consequences like the concept of "marching to the sound of the guns" and odd moments like the battle of Iuka in 1862 where Rosecrans and Grant lost contact with each other as Rosecrans fighting the rebel army wasn't heard by Grant's pickets due to an acoustic shadow.
great video Brandon F been waiting on a long time on this one
Great video! Very well done.
Excellent video sir.
Saw the fog of war at Waterloo 200. Volley fire and cannon on a grand scale but nowhere near the 1815 battle. An amazing experience
Great video. I can imagine the chaos of what my ancestors went through on Bunker Hill a wee bit better now. Although i do suspect that the omnipresent seabreeze blowing in off the harbor in those days would have offered a modicum of relief compared to more stagnant inland fields of battle. Could you perhaps commisson someone to put the historical texts you referenced into audio book format? Sounds like some compelling literature to listen to while doing my monotonous job. Cheers!
This is a topic I've wanted to see covered for a while, thank you for making a video on it. This is part of why I've heard some historians argue that the American Civil War wasn't actually THAT much deadlier than the Napoleonic/earlier gunpowder wars. The common conception is that rifles are more accurate than muskets, therefore higher casualties - but they were still black powder muzzle loading firearms, and as such kicked up a ton of smoke. The first volley with rifled muskets might have been more accurate than the first volley with smoothbore muskets, but as the battlefield got filled with smoke the accuracy would naturally die off until you were vaguely aiming at a blotch of color through a smoke cloud - if you were even aiming at all, since the infantry drill of the day I believe still emphasized rate of fire over taking time to aim.
Yeah, it kind of varied but generally reloading speed was prized more than individual marksmanship, though marksmanship definitely was becoming more attractive to military thinkers of the time. On the large scale, target practice wasn't very prevalent but we do have some recorded instances of whole regiments in reserve turning out for some target practice. I forget the regiment but in 1862 a US regiment formed one great big line of battle and fired at a barn 200 yards out and out of 700-and something rifles there were only about 45 hits or so
On thing that made the rifle muskets of the Civil War much more dangerous than the older smoothbores is something that isn't mentioned much. In addition to being spin-stabilized and therefore much more accurated than a round ball from a smoothbore the Minie' bullet used in the rifle was much more ballistically efficient than the round ball. That is a Minie bullet could be deadly out to 600 yards where a round ball would have dropped to the ground long before that. If you were within 600 yards of a firing line during the Civil War you could very well become a casualty, even if no-one took deliberate aim at you.
Keep in mind that during war, more people died from disease and not weapons.
YES! I WAS LITERALLY LOOKING FOR SOMETHING EXACTLY LIKE THIS
Awesome video and awesome content! As someone who was involved at Ft. Laurens, I can vouch for the humidity. I can’t excuse the venting of wrists, however… 😅
Ah yes. This is perfect where I'm playing Empire Total War for the first time in like 15 years lmao.
I would love for sometime in the future Brandon to do an interview with Rob of Britishmuzzleloaders, discussing all things muskets, black powder, drill etc.
Interesting video, sometimes I underestimate just how much smoke would exist on those battlefields
A very interesting video! However I was a bit struck by how "fast n' loose" those Czech re-enactors were playing with the safety factor. Granted back in the 18th Century gun crews had to get the shots off as quick as they could or risk getting overrun and skewered by bayonets but it goes without saying re-enactors don't have that problem. Maybe a rapid-fire load ONCE just to show how fast it could be done but in my opinion doing it repeatedly is asking for trouble.
During the Battle of Lundy's Lane and the battle of the Darkness at the Villerè plantation in the War of 1812, American and British soldiers couldn't see each other. All due to the chaotic fog of warfare.
Some of the untrained militiamen even fired against their own forces because of the smoke.
Man, if I were homeschooling a teenager, I'd totally use your channel. I don't have kids though.
I was at the Gettysburg reenactment this year, and on the 2nd day we did the Wheatfield. We had around 400-500 infantrymen if I had to guess, 3 confederate lines, 3 union lines. I fell pretty close to the tree line that marked the border of the battlefield, and got to watch the 2 sides clash. Even with this relatively low number of men, with weapons that don’t make as much smoke when compared to their flintlock predecessors, the field was covered in a veil of hazy white smoke that would only break when men ran through it. It almost looked like a thick morning fog. With this relatively tiny amount of men, I can only imagine what a long protracted battle between two armies would look like.
Damn, that crew is fast!
Sometimes the most obvious things contain the most interesting details. I learned a lot today from this video. I bet that smoke would have been stifling if not smothering when it was sitting thickly over the field of battle
I remember Gettysburg. Erin Go Bragh! As they said. It’s true though, there was a ton of smoke when the volleys got faster.
fire must have been the most terrifying thing of a battlefield particularly in the 19th century with explosive shells and the fact that if were wounded and could get off the battlefield you might see smoke in the background and realsie that you were soon to be engulfed and burnt alive. it w
In the words of sharpe (who may be farby) "You don't see a battle. You hear it. Black powder blasting by the ton on all sides. Black smoke blinding you and choking you and making you vomit. Then the French come out of the smoke - not in a line, but in a column. And they march towards our thin line, kettledrums hammering like hell and a golden eagle blazing overhead. They march slowly, and it takes them a long time to reach you, and you can't see them in smoke. But you can hear the drums. They march out of the smoke, and you fire a volley."
Perhaps talk about difference in battles from the era of flintlocks to cap and ball, or smooth bore to rifle. Maybe there was a battle where one army used rifles and the other used smooth bore, affecting the outcome? I am interested that weapons barely changed for centuries (ball and powder) until the arrival of Winchester and Martini Henry.
Brandon are you at all interested in the English Civil War and have you ever been to a Sealed Knot reenactment? The push of pike can be quite a sight and there's some early matchlock musketry.
There are many accounts of 2 linexs firing at each other casualties actually start to drop due to the smoke that eventually thete are next to none
Brandon will you ever talk about your book collection?
Hey brandon, I have a recommendation for a video.
Id like to see your take on how melee fights in napoleonic/colonial were fought with bayonets. Did soldiers stay in there formation? Or did they grapple each other and it was just some sort of use brawl fight? Or both (somehow idk).
Shame Empire TW has such lame smoke effects, though S2's are a sight to behold.
They need to remake it, especially a pike and shot era version that advances to linear warfare between 1600 and 1750
@@scottanos9981 There is an M2 mod called Conquest which adds a global map set in the 1600s so peak pike and shot. I did convert the Portugal mod for Shogun 2 so all clans use that roster, which was fun.
Pike and shot does not get the attention it deserves
Not only my modern military training, but also just basic childhood fire safety info talking about crawling under smoke makes me feel like soldiers would feel inclined to at least take a knee if not go prone to attempt to see under the fog.
6:11
My intrusive thoughts would make me take a swig of that blackpowder bottle.
Here within the first five minutes yeahhh!
Hey Brandon question I’m doing 1812 re-enactments and want to know where to hide my go pro in my uniform to conceal it but also get the best footage
What’s the painting in the background of the Little Timmy ad called?
I attended the bicentennial reenactment at Waterloo, after the first day's events on return to the village trains station ( 3miles away) it was impossible to see buildings across the road from the car park approx 30 yards.P.S. this is the reason for such bright uniforms.
Now I'm going to have to find my program to convert PDFs into a Kindle friendly format.
Speaking of tanks, if Da Vinci's tank was.built, it almost would certianly have been need to stop for a long time before moving as the smoke would certainly be thick. Not to mention some would have gotten insde the vehicle, which is way smaller than even a frigate meaning it would be filled with smoke faster.
Is that the same little Timmy that John Oliver cornily references in every episode?
This would be more a problem for the light companies when skirmishing. Maybe one of the reasons distance between soldiers was bigger. The line would normally just fire one or two rounds before the bayonet charge.
I video I’d like to see is the continental Andy’s reform and preparation for the the invasion of New York. But then changing and attacking York town
Gotta remember their powder smoked more. We use "smokeless" powder now.
Where can I get the link to the Aistrian cannon drill video
It is not on UA-cam to my knowledge, but I have it shared on my public Facebook page, which you can find linked in the description.
So Empire Total War lied to me. Also what is the link to the gun battery video around minute 04:00? Couldn't find it in the description.
You'll find that one on Facebook- I shared it on my official page back when it first made the rounds among reenactors. If you go there and scroll for a bit you'll find it.
@@BrandonF Thank you.
"Brimstone and fire"
Literally, think about it, brimstone is just sulphur. So really a battlefield would match classic descriptions of hell.
Great. Now im wondering what would happen if you fired Napoleonic cannon at an early tank
Link the Czech gun crew video please?
I've just shared it again on my Facebook page!
Smokey
Guns rate of fire was actually twice faster than the musket rate of fire
Literal fog of war.
Absolute hell for the officers as well to know what was going on
I have a pic from 1864, from a camera man on a hill watching the battle of Fredericksburg, from a hill a good distance away. You don't see anything but a smoke filled field... maybe a few union troops moving towards the front from the rear, going towards certain death... linear warfare was just insane to me
It's supposed to be one of the very few pictures taken of an actual battle
But idk
Aww, poor, little, Timmy. Never fear. I have just the solution.
Company! Form square!
Company! Fix bayonets!
There, lad. That'll give those "tanks" pause.
Does anyone have a link to the video of the Austrian Liechtenstein gun being fired?
I don't know if it's on UA-cam, but I have shared it on my facebook page.
thanks@@BrandonF
Little Timmy is my favorite character. Sorry Brandon.
War of rights' latest (and controversial) update gives you that smokey horror without leaving the house
Most of those reenactors have seen a few too many winters.
I looked away and got confused when I started hearing something about the French bringing in tanks. Sounded exciting.
Hello lads
Fun fact: youtube interrupted little Timmy to advertise an online strategy game.
How were they wining the battle on battlefield? With artilery smoke 😊
5:54 *cough cough The Patriot*
in some battles it was a game of chicken and who would look the most fabulous by the time one side had a route
I wonder how the enemy officers were treated in battle? Were they killed on the spot?
There's exceptions to every case, but typically if the officer surrendered and asked for "quarter," that is humane treatment, it was almost always granted. Same with the enlisted men. Granted, there could be times during a VERY rough fight where troops could get into a killing frenzy that wasn't easy to stop. It happened in Caesar's time and it happens now. Killing frenzies, thank God, are more the exception than the rule.
In modern warfare, you get smoke from burning buildings, burning tanks, and burning bodies.
lil timmy 😭
He'll do us all proud!
@@BrandonF yessir
well for starters you don't have the screaming dying soldiers who are left on the battlefield in reactments for the crows and looters or fire to finnsh off like often happend in real life.
in fact i think the police might have a few issues if a bunch of people ended up dying in a renactment. also they proabbly would frown on any fires started by gunfire.
To support your point: Waterloo had 16.000 soviet army extras playing the soldiers.The real battle hit 180.000 men involved. The movie is showing only an 11th of the true size of it this titanic engagement.
By the way: does anybody have any movie similar to waterloo?
Yes chapaev about civil war. In movie was 150,000 infantry 75,000 cavalry, 1500 cannons mortars howitzers, 90 mark iv tanks, 5 million miles of barbed wire, 12000 lewes and hotckisa vickers machine guns
Bro what? xD I have watched it since its free here on youtube and I have looked for battle scenes and NOTHING comes close to what you say. there is never more than 100 people on screen at any given time. it a movie with 500 extras TOPS. get outa here xD@@sonomacalendar9949
Wait you actually have powder I need some man come on man