Wow, this is an eye opener for me. I grew up in a pretty traditional Chinese family and I noticed my behaviour was very similar to what she described in the video. I was never taught this concept of "mianzi" directly, but it was such an important part of society it subconsciously influenced me. This video explained very effectively why I behave in some of the ways I do, thank you :)
Chinese people coming to America for the first time must think of us as rather blunt and rude, at least until they begin to understand that we don't place as much value on "saving face" as they do. This was a very interesting video. I had heard of the concept of "face" as it applies to Asian cultures, but had never heard the word mianzi before.
I thank you for this great video. I travel often to Korea and I have been charmed by the Korean equivalent of Mianzi as pertains to gift giving and dinner offers .Unfortunately, this custom seems to be dying out. My older generational friends still embrace it, but the youngsters often seem even to be unaware of it. One middle aged friend whom I visit once a year now gives me a gift and says, "Please accept it, please accept it, please accept it! Now Paul, you don't have to refuse it 3 times.
It's actually quite true, and being taught the oriental value then started living in the UK I actually don't realise I was quite influenced by the Mianzi of the Asian culture until I've seen this video, especially the drink bit.
As far as I can understand, face is a feature of stratified cultures. Face actually was excruciatingly important in western culture; the Victorian Era is often criticized for the emphasis on "proper" behavior. Relatively free markets in the 19th c. engendered such massive social mobility as to break down (or at least blur) the lines between social classes. This isn't the whole story, but stratification vs egalitarianism is a key difference. Azerbaijan is lovely, btw. I'd love to visit.
this video was very enlightening and entertaining. It's one of those things that westerners (or at least me) notice about chinese culture, but we don't understand because to our eyes it appears stuffy - if you were to actually tell your friend twice that you didn't want to come to their party, they would definitely think that you didn't want to go and that you might have some unspoken problem with them or their other guests. I can see that being a major minefield in a culture clash.
This story is so funny. It happens in Bengali culture too but a lot louder. The number of times I've seen my mum fight with the host about staying for dinner. I'm not even joking when I say they start wrestling to get their way, it's hilarious when it gets physical.
That's very true. I was about to say something about the western version of this kind of thing but you said it much better. It does exist but you're right: the difference is that it seems to be more clearly defined in East Asian cultures. In the west at least it also depends on your age and social status a lot, too. I'm not sure how much it's the same in the east, though I'd imagine those things would have some significance. Maybe just not as much.
Thanks so much for sharing that story at the end, and thanks for the vid and explaining and articulating this concept so very well :) (I dont know yr name tho...)
If circumstances allow, I'd go in a heartbeat. Central Asian history is underrepresented in US academia, so it holds a certain fascination for me. Anyhow social conventions exist to deter interpersonal conflict, so if some of the Azerbaijani politeness helps people get along, then it is good and should be maintained. If some of it hurts individuals or causes conflict, it should be jettisoned. American artlessness can be a bridge or a pitfall; it's all in how and when one applies it.
OMG we do the same thing with offering food to a guest in Italy! You are supposed to say no, so the host makes the offer again, and only then may you say yes.
Of course Mianzi 面子 also can imply humility. Being born in a white bread mid-westerner but raised here in Florida, many take my "I shouldn't" as a no, not the polite way of saying this is so kind and I am honored that you would think of me.
It's much more complex. Think of it as social currency; you work very hard to build it up, and guard it carefully because losing it is like losing money, maybe worse.
Yes, that is most likely the case. Stratification in our society still remains on a smaller scale, i.e., respect for the elders etc. Also, there are some regulations considering the women's behavior, that the western cultures could see as just inappropriate for a developed society. For example, marriage with only the consent of the parents is really common (though it IS fading away in the recent years). Thank you, be sure to visit these places sometime! :)
I don't think the refusal of gifts/invitations is just isolated to china, I tend to do that a lot as well. I normally feel rather rude if I accept something like that, but I shouldn't really.
While it may not be as well documented or as formalized the same concepts of Mianzi exist and are common in European and western culture as well. The interaction example of having to fight through multiple refusals is seen commonly, especially when money is being offered between intimates. Its a frustrating kind of politeness.
Wow I had no idea this way of thinking existed :0 Can anyone tell me if it's the same amongst close friends? Like if a very old friend was at your house would they still do this thing?
I've been studying in China now since January, and I have experienced much more ambiguity in Chinese culture. 2.5 months doesn't make me an expert, but I must ask: Have you really studied or experienced Asian culture? Having grown up in America, I can say that my opinion is that American culture is far more frank and explicit than what I've experienced in Shanghai. Best Regards, J
I am from Azerbaijan and I am utterly amazed by how similar everything she told is to our local culture. Although, we just call it being polite. Really annoying too, I always kinda envied european and american people for absence of such nonsense :D
I don't see the difference between the Asian concept of "face" and European politeness, manners, and reputation, except in the details of culture (such as who pays for a meal). I have a completely white background, and I will always decline a drink on the first offer, so as not to put someone out. If someone does something embarrassing like farting, we all pretend not to know what happened, to protect their reputation. And social conventions are frustrating here too - look at "Seinfeld".
so, since I am from Israel, I will shamelessly try and give you a word in hebrew. so, how about a word from the bible? or maybe a more known word like, Shalom? hope you will take this :)
(Cont) My white grandmother will offer food endlessly, because she doesn't want to appear impolite, and we will refuse endlessly, because we don't want to appear greedy. People occasionally commit suicide if they have been caught doing something deeply shameful, like molesting a child, or for instance if a father can't provide for his family. If your reputation is unrecoverable, it might be better to die than live with the shame. Only the re-use of the same root word is particular to Chinese.
I perceive in the PRC at least, that Mianzi 面子 (shame) is very important but not guilt. Often, I've caught my vendors with other companies confidential drawings, they seem to feel shame over being caught, not guilt for having it. Perhaps this is a source of Chinese corruption. 天高皇帝 "Heaven's high and the Emperor is far away," they say. It seems that America is getting this way. If a act is not seen, it does not exist. I hope that doesn't spread from America.
Wow, this is an eye opener for me. I grew up in a pretty traditional Chinese family and I noticed my behaviour was very similar to what she described in the video. I was never taught this concept of "mianzi" directly, but it was such an important part of society it subconsciously influenced me. This video explained very effectively why I behave in some of the ways I do, thank you :)
Chinese people coming to America for the first time must think of us as rather blunt and rude, at least until they begin to understand that we don't place as much value on "saving face" as they do. This was a very interesting video. I had heard of the concept of "face" as it applies to Asian cultures, but had never heard the word mianzi before.
What an interesting talk.Thanks. It is always surprising how much information one word could carry about the culture.
i like her story at the end about the drink... and how she sounds so british or scottish when she says "i dont have a drink!" ^^
The story at the end was incredibly amusing, could not stop laughing! :P
I thank you for this great video. I travel often to Korea and I have been charmed by the Korean equivalent of Mianzi as pertains to gift giving and dinner offers .Unfortunately, this custom seems to be dying out. My older generational friends still embrace it, but the youngsters often seem even to be unaware of it. One middle aged friend whom I visit once a year now gives me a gift and says, "Please accept it, please accept it, please accept it! Now Paul, you don't have to refuse it 3 times.
It's actually quite true, and being taught the oriental value then started living in the UK I actually don't realise I was quite influenced by the Mianzi of the Asian culture until I've seen this video, especially the drink bit.
As far as I can understand, face is a feature of stratified cultures. Face actually was excruciatingly important in western culture; the Victorian Era is often criticized for the emphasis on "proper" behavior.
Relatively free markets in the 19th c. engendered such massive social mobility as to break down (or at least blur) the lines between social classes. This isn't the whole story, but stratification vs egalitarianism is a key difference.
Azerbaijan is lovely, btw. I'd love to visit.
You help me a lot understanding the concept of Mianzi! Thanks!
this video was very enlightening and entertaining. It's one of those things that westerners (or at least me) notice about chinese culture, but we don't understand because to our eyes it appears stuffy - if you were to actually tell your friend twice that you didn't want to come to their party, they would definitely think that you didn't want to go and that you might have some unspoken problem with them or their other guests. I can see that being a major minefield in a culture clash.
@CommonRaven Yeah good call! I really second that idea about credits, and for ALL the videos too.
This story is so funny. It happens in Bengali culture too but a lot louder. The number of times I've seen my mum fight with the host about staying for dinner. I'm not even joking when I say they start wrestling to get their way, it's hilarious when it gets physical.
That's very true. I was about to say something about the western version of this kind of thing but you said it much better. It does exist but you're right: the difference is that it seems to be more clearly defined in East Asian cultures.
In the west at least it also depends on your age and social status a lot, too. I'm not sure how much it's the same in the east, though I'd imagine those things would have some significance. Maybe just not as much.
Very informative video by the way, thanks for uploading it.
Thanks so much for sharing that story at the end, and thanks for the vid and explaining and articulating this concept so very well :) (I dont know yr name tho...)
I absolutely agree!
If circumstances allow, I'd go in a heartbeat. Central Asian history is underrepresented in US academia, so it holds a certain fascination for me.
Anyhow social conventions exist to deter interpersonal conflict, so if some of the Azerbaijani politeness helps people get along, then it is good and should be maintained. If some of it hurts individuals or causes conflict, it should be jettisoned.
American artlessness can be a bridge or a pitfall; it's all in how and when one applies it.
It`s amazing how we can learn more about humans by studying things like language and cultural than by examining our physiollogy.
OMG we do the same thing with offering food to a guest in Italy! You are supposed to say no, so the host makes the offer again, and only then may you say yes.
Of course Mianzi 面子 also can imply humility. Being born in a white bread mid-westerner but raised here in Florida, many take my "I shouldn't" as a no, not the polite way of saying this is so kind and I am honored that you would think of me.
@PBDPBD Fair comment - Im in agreement with most of that. I also think there is a lot of denial around many issues, in western culture.
Interesting video, thank you
It's much more complex. Think of it as social currency; you work very hard to build it up, and guard it carefully because losing it is like losing money, maybe worse.
so true!!
Yes, that is most likely the case. Stratification in our society still remains on a smaller scale, i.e., respect for the elders etc. Also, there are some regulations considering the women's behavior, that the western cultures could see as just inappropriate for a developed society. For example, marriage with only the consent of the parents is really common (though it IS fading away in the recent years).
Thank you, be sure to visit these places sometime! :)
I don't think the refusal of gifts/invitations is just isolated to china, I tend to do that a lot as well. I normally feel rather rude if I accept something like that, but I shouldn't really.
While it may not be as well documented or as formalized the same concepts of Mianzi exist and are common in European and western culture as well. The interaction example of having to fight through multiple refusals is seen commonly, especially when money is being offered between intimates. Its a frustrating kind of politeness.
Wow, so as a foreigner from the U.S.A. traveling to let's say China or Japan, would I be given leniency for not knowing the customs there?
Wow I had no idea this way of thinking existed :0
Can anyone tell me if it's the same amongst close friends? Like if a very old friend was at your house would they still do this thing?
I've been studying in China now since January, and I have experienced much more ambiguity in Chinese culture. 2.5 months doesn't make me an expert, but I must ask: Have you really studied or experienced Asian culture? Having grown up in America, I can say that my opinion is that American culture is far more frank and explicit than what I've experienced in Shanghai. Best Regards,
J
Isn't 'face' kinda like 'personal pride'?
I am from Azerbaijan and I am utterly amazed by how similar everything she told is to our local culture. Although, we just call it being polite. Really annoying too, I always kinda envied european and american people for absence of such nonsense :D
What is see saying in 2:14? going dutch or deutsch? What does it mean?
I don't see the difference between the Asian concept of "face" and European politeness, manners, and reputation, except in the details of culture (such as who pays for a meal). I have a completely white background, and I will always decline a drink on the first offer, so as not to put someone out. If someone does something embarrassing like farting, we all pretend not to know what happened, to protect their reputation. And social conventions are frustrating here too - look at "Seinfeld".
so, since I am from Israel, I will shamelessly try and give you a word in hebrew.
so, how about a word from the bible? or maybe a more known word like, Shalom?
hope you will take this :)
(Cont) My white grandmother will offer food endlessly, because she doesn't want to appear impolite, and we will refuse endlessly, because we don't want to appear greedy. People occasionally commit suicide if they have been caught doing something deeply shameful, like molesting a child, or for instance if a father can't provide for his family. If your reputation is unrecoverable, it might be better to die than live with the shame. Only the re-use of the same root word is particular to Chinese.
Is it bad that when I saw 面子, I immediately said めんこ? I'll stick to 顔 :C
@PBDPBD And that's why we are fucked
My mom always say 不要怼我的面子！
if i were chinese i would not have very much face lol
Ahaha!! M
I perceive in the PRC at least, that Mianzi 面子 (shame) is very important but not guilt. Often, I've caught my vendors with other companies confidential drawings, they seem to feel shame over being caught, not guilt for having it. Perhaps this is a source of Chinese corruption. 天高皇帝 "Heaven's high and the Emperor is far away," they say. It seems that America is getting this way. If a act is not seen, it does not exist. I hope that doesn't spread from America.