Every episode I watch I think "that was the best one". I am astonished and filled with wonder and gratitude. At one point I found myself pausing the video. It was as though some part of my 'small self' was taken aback by the vistas of possibility that were opening up. It was as if this part of me had a set idea of what can be gleaned from watching a video and wasn't ready for the dropping away of long held views in the intensity and concentration of the unfolding dialogue. Thank you John and Christopher and the tech team. (p.s. I was embarrassed to realise that I've had Elaine Scarry's book 'On beauty and being just' on my shelf for over a decade without reading it. I am now inspired to read it)
John and Chris , this was so beautiful I actually found myself with tears on my face ❤️ this touched my heart. thank you for sharing this journey with us all ❤ God bless you.
Thank you John, Christopher, and all your colleagues so very much. I have watched "Awakening From the Meaning Crisis", "After Socrates" to this point, and a number of conversations between John and others. Thank you, thsnk you, thank you, all. I can not explain nor express my gratitude enough.
I am really glad this came out on Mother's day weekend. I was already meditating on Matt. 15:21-28 about the Faith of the Canaanite Mother whose daughter was demon possessed. That connection between her unshakable faith in the face of rejection and the contrast to the greatest possible despair from the torment and suffering of her child was made relevant to me. I should go give my mom a hug tonight!
That was so good re confession ….exactly how I think if it but so beautifully articulated ….if you’re lucky enough to have a sensitive confessor who knows you as being known is being loved
What an amazingly rich series of dialogues. I really appreciate the deep exploration of the phenomenological. It makes me very excited to approach the enneads. Thank you two so very much for sharing this. What a beautiful example.
The love and respect are based on reasons, which are also faith. In conditions of life, such things are mockable as all human beings envalue their comfort first, in this reason too we need to keep effort for keeping love and respect for other relationships if some other relationships are collpased by conditions of life. I think Dr.Vervaeke's UA-cam video about meaning crisis is received this way for best possible solution by intellectual cares, I think he and his fellows have love and respect based on reasoning. Inspiration is what I give thanks to them.
24:58 Literally, "scientia intuitiva" translates from Latin to "intuitive knowledge". In Spinoza's philosophy, it refers to a direct, non-discursive understanding of the essence of things, which contrasts with more abstract or reasoned forms of knowledge. This intuitive grasp is seen as the highest form of knowledge, leading to a deep sense of joy and fulfillment.
I thought it would be difficult to follow AMC but this series really has been a tour de force and all contributors have made this a stunning achievement. Tbh, I am a bit envious sometimes when I see people so at home within themselves like Chris but I'm looking for a broader answer to our crisis than any one individuals. It's the world at large that concerns me more which is why I 'know in my heart' and with every fibre of my being that legacy religions simply aren't up to the task. It's utter fantasy to believe we can go backwards. I'm not against any sincere religious practitioner, it's simply that they are too few and far between. So few in fact, that I have felt more Christian or whatever than those who profess their 'faith'. Far too much blood has been spilled by insincere practitioners and still is. Together with the scientific worldview I grew up and was educated in, almost everyone I know around me, the trajectory of technology, Fundamentalism, Literalism, etc, etc., I've known all my life that our beautiful planet and life are in extreme peril. I try not to be pessimistic as I'm temperamentally not that way inclined but... I don't know what's going to happen but most indicators point south. Anyway, too much caffeine? Thanks again for providing us with 'really relevant' content, not to simply consume but educate, in it's true sense. My sincerest and loving regards as always, Jason (some anonymous dude).
This was my favorite episode. And John, in case you didn't, I would recommend you reading Jean-Luc Marion's commentary on Augustine's confessions. It's called "In the self's place". It really offers some great insights.
I have been following along in this series and have loved each episode. This one was especially enlightening. I love the idea of the act of repentance and the act of gratitude/forgiveness as a state of mind (a receptive vessel) that leads to the ability to take the leaps of love to beauty, reason to truth, and faith to goodness. I would like to add the possibility of the acts of humility and patience (similar and yet different) as key to this state of mind as well. All of these characteristics of receptiveness to the good are acts that are interconnected and ultimately unattainable but lead to the abundant life if practiced on a daily basis.
21:54 1st things 1st, 2nds get thrown in... 2nd things first you get neither -CS Lewis. Existentially, our first step is relational, partial, and apparent to the absolute, whole, and real, respectively. Great dialogos.
i have a different typology than the one discussed around 15 min. -- truth is propositional about the relative and absolute, beauty is perspectival on appearance and reality, the good is participatory in faith and love, and justice is procedural on part and whole relations. you might notice the correlation here with ken wilber's four quadrant model as well.
Audio team, so we're back on BS again are we? What was that performance? Tables being dragged, muted laughter, random FX, truly astounding how you managed to outdo yourselves in your unprofessionalism. Do NOT let it happen again. John and Chris...Just Wow. I approve this message.
@@ReverendDr.Thomas thankfully, they have both. We need more people seeking wisdom nowadays, not many pursue wisdom for anything other then virtue signaling
@@ReverendDr.Thomas a knowing of the self that's in correlation to that which is prior to the self and the ability to overcome self deception, in order to take in many perspectives. Which will allow you to see the right path or as john would say the true line.
I often think on the Illusion and Reality as a kind of Virtual Reality Bubble. How we create systems of defining reality then take them on and use them, until we find the flaw, the portal, the gap in the veil, the way out. Which then opens to a wider sphere. Nested realities we all individually hold as true and carry with us like VR goggles, until we stumble out of them, then tinker with the goggles until they fit more closely to the eternally receeding reality we pursue. Through dialogue you can try somone elses goggles out, find flaws and facets of your own, that dialogue reflects helping you notice the way they guide you, the way they move you. These spheres would not only be nested outward but inward, foreward to beyond backward toward the past. Standing in different areas of the sphere you get a sense of it, you explore the arena, then search for a way through them.
Just to add more dimensions to the triangular "tonos" of transcendence and make head (and heart) explode, throw in William James' option of believe: living or dead; 2, forced or avoidable; 3, momentous or trivial;😂❤
A mans reach should exceed his grasp, or what is a heaven for A kiss participates in Love Reason (ratio or proportion) - understanding a part as a way to look into, working into the whole, aspiring to the whole (part participating to the ahole without desire to escape finitude) (relative-whole) Love - know and dont know. Part in contact to leads to deeper places (ladder of ascending from person, to virtues, nous, etc) (in relation to Beauty as seen as appeaeance and reality) Faith (leap into fate) - participate in something as a part because have an understanding it can lead you to gestalt, can get you back to understanding the part when come back from the gestalt (part-whole) Links to the True the Good and the Beautiful. Also maps onto ethics, aestehtics and faith
Reason existentially:: Descartes had to hold inferences/arguments in a flash of insight in order for it be reason Spinoza - discursive reason linked and held with intuitiva Interpenetration of insight and inference (intuitive knowledge) From aporia in dialectic practices, through insight, breaks the current logic loop, to create logic loop inferentially. Use aporia to gather around new paths of enquiry Abduction as well - link to best explanation
Beauty existentially: Definitely a tree (converged into one instance of the tree, through it's features) but didn't know trees could be like this (openness of these features open into infinite moreness - a tree showing you more than how it is more than a tree, deeper into reality through exposure of ignorance and what you do know of the tree simultaneously) Understanding in the beauty through this to get from appearance to reality. To be able to apprehend beauty and give an account of realit😂y through this (reciprocal opening)
Faith phenomenallically: Open up to infinite (beyond the limit/finite) to I but cannot capture the I. Become the Thou, becoming part of a greater whole. The infinite I makes me a Thou. As more than all your sins. Witness errors to become more of it. This leads us into intimation of a more abundant life, points to the Good eventually, parts show whole that makes up the part, which is not a part (throughljne) and will not be broken. As we open up it opens up, and will not be broken. Fullness of being. Faith as to follow the Good, which can never be reduced as reification. As reality opens up intelligibility won't fail - good Even if you fail you should still follow the virtue/throughline. The good doesn't mean perfect Empty oneself while keeping oneself
Leaps of all three of these seeing this exemplified existentially as repentance: Confession done for your own understanding when confessing to God. Realised promise of renewal. Finitude through error makes you open to realise you can be more than the sum of your errors. Even if you fail you should still follow the virtue/throughline. The good doesn't mean perfect
Cartesian doubt/Superego: by what standard are you judging me? Standard impossible to meet and also arbitrarily moving. If truth is impossible then your Superego voice is also not true, because then I cannot hear you Only way to realise evil as destructiveness and it's only function is through seeing it. That breaks it's destructive patterning
Another great lecture! One question if anyone can make out what is been said at 19:00 "If you are going to move from ??? to existential..." I listen 5 times still not sure, and the auto transcript doesn't seem to be right either
Consider: Sufficient to the description is the reality If I describe a square or a triangle, a house or a flower… you would recognize by the description what I am describing… that is to say you would understand the reality of the object, shape, emotion.. etc that I am describing by your awareness of its existence. You would not mistake my description of a square for a triangle. You would not misunderstand my description of a house as a flower. I can describe a human but with more detail I can come close to describing an individual but you would only recognize the description if you knew that individual. Furthermore a picture of the individual would be more helpful than a verbal description. Now consider : If I describe something as having a beginning and an ending, as well as being both infinite and simultaneously finite…. That this is in everything and everywhere and that it is what creates all forms and things from the quarks to the grandest structures of the universe, that it is the image in which you are made what am I describing?
Fun fact: John Vervaeke once killed somebody’s pet monkey with his bare hands while attending an awards ceremony at the University of Bangladesh…..(for, quote;” ..not respecting his space.”)
SOCRATES: “Come then to me, who am a midwife’s son and myself a midwife, and do your best to answer the questions which I will ask you. And if I abstract and expose your first-born, because I discover upon inspection that the conception which you have formed is a vain shadow. . . . Once more, then, Theaetetus, I repeat my old question, ‘What is knowledge?’” It's a really nice conversation guys and obviously great for the inter-personal nature of innate affect-regulation. But are either of you truly awake? Have you missed the mark of true dialectic, as a private process of self-cross-examination? Are you the subject of audience capture & childhood trauma John? And is this comment a self-serving criticism or a critique?
I would like to tell you that this very dialogue (Theatetus) presented me with a profound synchronicity that I take to be a special instance of anamnesis which I take to be a personal validation of Logos. To say that this is all projection is to not follow through. Don't post your stake in the ground prematurely.
@@mills8102 Don't be so presumptuous that l do & can't back it an articulation of its universal applicability for the too well educated for their own good. Especially how it applies to JV's intellectually detached idea of a throughline in our perception of objective reality.
@@mills8102 And yet, you don't say what the throughline actually is as you self-stimulte feeling of positive affect. And auto-poetic Woo will no longer do my friend.
Bring on the wenches and wine. Boys you have a boat to sail tomorrow. They will never be true friends. For a friend would die for you. Wish I could afford to support such messages through people willing to waste their time for your arrogance.
Yes, I keep coming back to listen to this episode. It never fails to move and inspire ❤
Every episode I watch I think "that was the best one". I am astonished and filled with wonder and gratitude. At one point I found myself pausing the video. It was as though some part of my 'small self' was taken aback by the vistas of possibility that were opening up. It was as if this part of me had a set idea of what can be gleaned from watching a video and wasn't ready for the dropping away of long held views in the intensity and concentration of the unfolding dialogue. Thank you John and Christopher and the tech team. (p.s. I was embarrassed to realise that I've had Elaine Scarry's book 'On beauty and being just' on my shelf for over a decade without reading it. I am now inspired to read it)
My goodness! You 2 keep uping the bar.
John and Chris , this was so beautiful I actually found myself with tears on my face ❤️ this touched my heart. thank you for sharing this journey with us all ❤ God bless you.
Thank you John, Christopher, and all your colleagues so very much.
I have watched "Awakening From the Meaning Crisis", "After Socrates" to this point, and a number of conversations between John and others.
Thank you, thsnk you, thank you, all.
I can not explain nor express my gratitude enough.
Worth the wait!
I am really glad this came out on Mother's day weekend. I was already meditating on Matt. 15:21-28 about the Faith of the Canaanite Mother whose daughter was demon possessed. That connection between her unshakable faith in the face of rejection and the contrast to the greatest possible despair from the torment and suffering of her child was made relevant to me. I should go give my mom a hug tonight!
That was so good re confession ….exactly how I think if it but so beautifully articulated ….if you’re lucky enough to have a sensitive confessor who knows you as being known is being loved
WOW! Beautiful dialogue. I am absolutely living for this duo (JV/Chris). Just absolutely phenomenal!
I've been refreshing your channel every day since the last video waiting for this!
What an amazingly rich series of dialogues. I really appreciate the deep exploration of the phenomenological. It makes me very excited to approach the enneads. Thank you two so very much for sharing this. What a beautiful example.
John, your point on the Cartesian demon and sadistic superego was moving to say the least! Thank you so very much for these conversations.
Thank you John and Chris!
The love and respect are based on reasons, which are also faith. In conditions of life, such things are mockable as all human beings envalue their comfort first, in this reason too we need to keep effort for keeping love and respect for other relationships if some other relationships are collpased by conditions of life. I think Dr.Vervaeke's UA-cam video about meaning crisis is received this way for best possible solution by intellectual cares, I think he and his fellows have love and respect based on reasoning. Inspiration is what I give thanks to them.
This helped me to understand what it means to forgive myself, and be accountable, more fully. As well as the nature of beauty. Thank you.
Fantastic series within the series, thank you both for your authenticity and sharing insights
24:58 Literally, "scientia intuitiva" translates from Latin to "intuitive knowledge". In Spinoza's philosophy, it refers to a direct, non-discursive understanding of the essence of things, which contrasts with more abstract or reasoned forms of knowledge. This intuitive grasp is seen as the highest form of knowledge, leading to a deep sense of joy and fulfillment.
I thought it would be difficult to follow AMC but this series really has been a tour de force and all contributors have made this a stunning achievement. Tbh, I am a bit envious sometimes when I see people so at home within themselves like Chris but I'm looking for a broader answer to our crisis than any one individuals. It's the world at large that concerns me more which is why I 'know in my heart' and with every fibre of my being that legacy religions simply aren't up to the task. It's utter fantasy to believe we can go backwards. I'm not against any sincere religious practitioner, it's simply that they are too few and far between. So few in fact, that I have felt more Christian or whatever than those who profess their 'faith'. Far too much blood has been spilled by insincere practitioners and still is. Together with the scientific worldview I grew up and was educated in, almost everyone I know around me, the trajectory of technology, Fundamentalism, Literalism, etc, etc., I've known all my life that our beautiful planet and life are in extreme peril. I try not to be pessimistic as I'm temperamentally not that way inclined but... I don't know what's going to happen but most indicators point south. Anyway, too much caffeine? Thanks again for providing us with 'really relevant' content, not to simply consume but educate, in it's true sense. My sincerest and loving regards as always, Jason (some anonymous dude).
This was my favorite episode. And John, in case you didn't, I would recommend you reading Jean-Luc Marion's commentary on Augustine's confessions. It's called "In the self's place". It really offers some great insights.
Fantastic episode full of nuggets of wisdom!
I'll be looking forward to watching the next series of conversations between Chris & John.
Another fantastic episode, I'm learning so much from you!
Thanks to you both!
Yah~ I am so behind again lol. Almost finished 19...knee deep in grading papers this weekend though, sigh
You inspired this haiku:
Philosophizing:
A tree here, a table there;
All starting to blush
I have been following along in this series and have loved each episode. This one was especially enlightening. I love the idea of the act of repentance and the act of gratitude/forgiveness as a state of mind (a receptive vessel) that leads to the ability to take the leaps of love to beauty, reason to truth, and faith to goodness. I would like to add the possibility of the acts of humility and patience (similar and yet different) as key to this state of mind as well. All of these characteristics of receptiveness to the good are acts that are interconnected and ultimately unattainable but lead to the abundant life if practiced on a daily basis.
I think you will like this article about teshuvah:www.unityunitarian.org/uploads/6/1/0/3/6103699/the_seven_steps_of_repentance.pdf
21:54 1st things 1st, 2nds get thrown in... 2nd things first you get neither -CS Lewis.
Existentially, our first step is relational, partial, and apparent to the absolute, whole, and real, respectively.
Great dialogos.
Great stuff! Easy to understand, a little harder to implement but not impossible. Thanks.
I Appreciate your time JV ❤🍄
i have a different typology than the one discussed around 15 min. -- truth is propositional about the relative and absolute, beauty is perspectival on appearance and reality, the good is participatory in faith and love, and justice is procedural on part and whole relations. you might notice the correlation here with ken wilber's four quadrant model as well.
This is Goooood.
Fascinating... and thank you both.
Beautiful... thank you!
Thanks John!
Audio team, so we're back on BS again are we? What was that performance? Tables being dragged, muted laughter, random FX, truly astounding how you managed to outdo yourselves in your unprofessionalism. Do NOT let it happen again. John and Chris...Just Wow. I approve this message.
Intellectual juggernauts back at it again this is gold.
Unfortunately, intelligence doesn't always correlate with WISDOM. 🧠
@@ReverendDr.Thomas thankfully, they have both. We need more people seeking wisdom nowadays, not many pursue wisdom for anything other then virtue signaling
@@trippyfolk7351, in your own words, define “WISDOM”. ☝️🤔☝️
@@ReverendDr.Thomas a knowing of the self that's in correlation to that which is prior to the self and the ability to overcome self deception, in order to take in many perspectives. Which will allow you to see the right path or as john would say the true line.
@@trippyfolk7351, what is this "self" and what is PRIOR to it? 🧐
I often think on the Illusion and Reality as a kind of Virtual Reality Bubble. How we create systems of defining reality then take them on and use them, until we find the flaw, the portal, the gap in the veil, the way out. Which then opens to a wider sphere. Nested realities we all individually hold as true and carry with us like VR goggles, until we stumble out of them, then tinker with the goggles until they fit more closely to the eternally receeding reality we pursue. Through dialogue you can try somone elses goggles out, find flaws and facets of your own, that dialogue reflects helping you notice the way they guide you, the way they move you. These spheres would not only be nested outward but inward, foreward to beyond backward toward the past. Standing in different areas of the sphere you get a sense of it, you explore the arena, then search for a way through them.
Just to add more dimensions to the triangular "tonos" of transcendence and make head (and heart) explode, throw in William James' option of believe: living or dead; 2, forced or avoidable; 3, momentous or trivial;😂❤
A mans reach should exceed his grasp, or what is a heaven for
A kiss participates in Love
Reason (ratio or proportion) - understanding a part as a way to look into, working into the whole, aspiring to the whole (part participating to the ahole without desire to escape finitude) (relative-whole)
Love - know and dont know. Part in contact to leads to deeper places (ladder of ascending from person, to virtues, nous, etc) (in relation to Beauty as seen as appeaeance and reality)
Faith (leap into fate) - participate in something as a part because have an understanding it can lead you to gestalt, can get you back to understanding the part when come back from the gestalt (part-whole)
Links to the True the Good and the Beautiful. Also maps onto ethics, aestehtics and faith
Reason existentially:: Descartes had to hold inferences/arguments in a flash of insight in order for it be reason
Spinoza - discursive reason linked and held with intuitiva
Interpenetration of insight and inference (intuitive knowledge)
From aporia in dialectic practices, through insight, breaks the current logic loop, to create logic loop inferentially. Use aporia to gather around new paths of enquiry
Abduction as well - link to best explanation
Beauty existentially:
Definitely a tree (converged into one instance of the tree, through it's features) but didn't know trees could be like this (openness of these features open into infinite moreness - a tree showing you more than how it is more than a tree, deeper into reality through exposure of ignorance and what you do know of the tree simultaneously)
Understanding in the beauty through this to get from appearance to reality. To be able to apprehend beauty and give an account of realit😂y through this (reciprocal opening)
Faith phenomenallically:
Open up to infinite (beyond the limit/finite) to I but cannot capture the I. Become the Thou, becoming part of a greater whole. The infinite I makes me a Thou.
As more than all your sins. Witness errors to become more of it.
This leads us into intimation of a more abundant life, points to the Good eventually, parts show whole that makes up the part, which is not a part (throughljne) and will not be broken. As we open up it opens up, and will not be broken. Fullness of being. Faith as to follow the Good, which can never be reduced as reification.
As reality opens up intelligibility won't fail - good
Even if you fail you should still follow the virtue/throughline. The good doesn't mean perfect
Empty oneself while keeping oneself
Leaps of all three of these seeing this exemplified existentially as repentance:
Confession done for your own understanding when confessing to God. Realised promise of renewal. Finitude through error makes you open to realise you can be more than the sum of your errors.
Even if you fail you should still follow the virtue/throughline. The good doesn't mean perfect
Cartesian doubt/Superego: by what standard are you judging me? Standard impossible to meet and also arbitrarily moving. If truth is impossible then your Superego voice is also not true, because then I cannot hear you
Only way to realise evil as destructiveness and it's only function is through seeing it. That breaks it's destructive patterning
Another great lecture!
One question if anyone can make out what is been said at 19:00
"If you are going to move from ??? to existential..."
I listen 5 times still not sure, and the auto transcript doesn't seem to be right either
I think John way saying "If you're going to move from the epistemic to the existential ... " and just pronounced "epistemic" in an odd way
John’s sense of humor…. 53:33 Hilarious
❤❤
Consider:
Sufficient to the description is the reality
If I describe a square or a triangle, a house or a flower… you would recognize by the description what I am describing… that is to say you would understand the reality of the object, shape, emotion.. etc that I am describing by your awareness of its existence. You would not mistake my description of a square for a triangle. You would not misunderstand my description of a house as a flower. I can describe a human but with more detail I can come close to describing an individual but you would only recognize the description if you knew that individual. Furthermore a picture of the individual would be more helpful than a verbal description.
Now consider :
If I describe something as having a beginning and an ending, as well as being both infinite and simultaneously finite…. That this is in everything and everywhere and that it is what creates all forms and things from the quarks to the grandest structures of the universe, that it is the image in which you are made what am I describing?
Mastropietro is Italian for:
Master of Puppets.
First comment!
Fun fact: John Vervaeke once killed somebody’s pet monkey with his bare hands while attending an awards ceremony at the University of Bangladesh…..(for, quote;” ..not respecting his space.”)
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤……
What was the nane of the author ellen scari the beUty of the tree something like that
🌚☄️❤️💫
Me and the boys always talk like this when the women aren’t around.
Episode 21: The fourth great leap, of Dr John Vervaeke into Christopher Maestropiestro's bedsheets.
can this be factually computed?
SOCRATES: “Come then to me, who am a midwife’s son and myself a midwife, and do your best to answer the questions which I will ask you. And if I abstract and expose your first-born, because I discover upon inspection that the conception which you have formed is a vain shadow. . . . Once more, then, Theaetetus, I repeat my old question, ‘What is knowledge?’” It's a really nice conversation guys and obviously great for the inter-personal nature of innate affect-regulation. But are either of you truly awake? Have you missed the mark of true dialectic, as a private process of self-cross-examination? Are you the subject of audience capture & childhood trauma John? And is this comment a self-serving criticism or a critique?
I would like to tell you that this very dialogue (Theatetus) presented me with a profound synchronicity that I take to be a special instance of anamnesis which I take to be a personal validation of Logos.
To say that this is all projection is to not follow through. Don't post your stake in the ground prematurely.
@@mills8102 Don't be so presumptuous that l do & can't back it an articulation of its universal applicability for the too well educated for their own good. Especially how it applies to JV's intellectually detached idea of a throughline in our perception of objective reality.
@@davidbates9358 The throughline is there. It is what is. It was there before us and will remain.
@@mills8102 And yet, you don't say what the throughline actually is as you self-stimulte feeling of positive affect. And auto-poetic Woo will no longer do my friend.
@@davidbates9358 The throughline is what came out of the ark and tore the veil and will not be put back in a box. It is what is.
unintelligible phenological nonsense
Bring on the wenches and wine. Boys you have a boat to sail tomorrow. They will never be true friends. For a friend would die for you. Wish I could afford to support such messages through people willing to waste their time for your arrogance.